nothing short of a complete overhaul of traits, weapon skills, and basic mechanics (like rallying and a FILO condition system) holds real hope of making this pvp fun.
whats the point in balancing the existing skills?
more people watch diablo 3, the fail sequel of the gaming industry, than watch gw2 pvp.
yup.
@milo, blinks do not, good pvp, make.
regarding the trend of bad decisions about pvp… im not quite willing to say they’re incompetent, but they made some really big mistakes in the very beginning of the pvp game design, and it doesnt seem like theyre willing to accept the price tag of fixing those mistakes… so theyre just trying to duct tape the thing together…
I do admit, sometimes they seem to opt towards paper machet instead of duct tape… but tbh the idea of ‘fixing’ pvp problems w/o addressing rallying, for example, is so ridiculous i cant even make myself pretend to care.
noooooooooooooo
HoH WAS amazing, but the PvP department has like, 2 programmers, and that would be “a major back end fix” that would take 8 months, people would get impatient and so the date would get pushed to 10 months, so that 2 months in the middle could be spent developing a ‘bandaid’ fix to hold us over.
Then the fix would come but there wouldnt be enough players for it to function properly, so it will seem broken even though its really just a little wierd.
THEN we’d realize another year has gone by and our gameplay is still kitten .
But we’d have like 15 new maps in the meantime, because the pvp team has about 8 guyswhos job it is to just make maps.
ya anet…
your game is not an esport
its so bad you cant even make it an esport by throwing money at prize pools
fix your game and make it fun, then resume esport a,bitions. really, just set them aside for a few years while you start over in square 1 and say:
our gameplay sucks.
redo all weapon skills for pvp, balanced around pvp… probably put a lot more skillshots in there, maybe turn cripple into a stacking 1% debuff and put it on auto attacks for certain weapons and stuff, lowering their damage. maybe make the heal debuff of poison work like that too, and vulnerability is already there… make conditions filo. now youve created depth of strategy around dodging and condi removal. get rid of all gap closers / openers and add them back slowly as needed, consider making them elite skills with appropriately long cooldowns.
you know, fix your game
then come back to esport
On the basis of good/bad/missing
This proposal is a really good one, with a lot of missing… but not really any bad.
oh, edit: one ‘bad’, would be weapons centered on AoE will need adjusting later, this is sort of a missing. Ele staff would be the big example since they cant weapon swap. Basically, everyone needs a way to deal with single target else you’ll be too niche, and nerfing aoe’s effect against single targets…
(edited by ryston.7640)
i love poe, but if a lack of free time is your issue, look elsewhere
so to answer some questions…
I sort of missused the word spam, though most people got it. Heartseeker is true spam, and while my feelings towards that skill arent exactly warm and fuzzy it isn’t my beef. I have a problem with how common gap closers / openers are, to the point where theyre ‘spammy’ if not truly spammable.
the distinction between gw2 the game and gw2 spvp … sort of lost on the spvp subforum.
In some games, a single mistake means loss. The problem here is that with sufficient mastery, all games become a contest of who doesnt make a mistake… so the key is to
a) Have visible exchanges with moments of suspense (the ball is hanging in the air!)
b) Have comeback potential
c) have enough moving parts that you can follow the action, but just barely not quite all of it at once. for the average human familiar with a game, you only need about 7 variables, which usually means 2 points of activity at a given time. (the ball and all the people clustering around it, plus one position per team taking up a critical position elsewhere.)
so… gw2 satisfies a with stomps, though poorly.
your post makes b sound increasingly real
and ill bet they still make a fuster cluck out of the screen ruining c, but oh well.
your whining about how the game is decided by the accumulation of errors on one side or the other…
is the most convincing evidince ive heard to date I should try gw2 again w/ a team because anet has started fixing things.
but has little to do with gap closer spam.
it’s a little too soon to announce but I do believe we have a leading candidate for best post on pvp forum since people gave a kitten about fixing this game.
does anyone else think this is extremely corrosive to tactical gameplay?
ego boosting internet bragging… aka kitten, is blocked … so im double posting to clarify, instead of editing my op… cause thats the anet way, add rewards to bad pvp with dying community, dont just edit the origional pvp… like by removing downer state
i object to your use of ‘anymore’
So they added a lot of things to spvp, kinda wanna try it out but why should I?
Takes 4 wins in solo q to get 1 gold, the gear you get if you win can only be use in spvp so its useless, I don’t care about the ranks, also in almost every game there always players missing so its more like a 3v5 and that makes it no fun to even play. Can someone at lest tell me something to get me more into it, I really wanna spvp but its more of a headache then anything els.
for the same reason you play counter strike, its fun! You don’t need ingame progression, your own skills as a player will progress indefinately!
oh, wait, gw2 pvp… yea neither of those are really relevant here.
lol there’s no sportsmanship on the internet bro.
i learned this when I was like 14: if you can’t beat em, join em.
This from a total sportsman btw, I just know not to get sand in my kitten when others dont give respect. either dish it back or walk away. dont cry for someone else to change their behavior.
sell the IP to Disney?
well.
when he announced new healing skills, i got excited and thought they were acknowledging that removing the healer role was overly ambitious for the time, and bringing a much needed support dynamic into the game.
so dissapointed i guess?
the thing about working with the devs… several of us were in the beta, and spent hours drafting missives describing the what and the why about gw2’s problems.
we were ignored.
some people became less mature and just started flinging poo against the wall, they were banned and forced to make new accounts.
so we want to work constructively with the devs, but first we need to take their pride down a few notches so they realize theyre not geniuses and some of their decisions suck. hence the poo flinging. also, its cathartic.
one cannot simply play gw1 because they flooded the game with poorly designed expansions and spoiled it.
What they need is classic GW with careful meta shifting balance changes, like they had for the first year and change.
so the long awaited big pvp patch feature was… some pve heals for everyone?
… sorry but if their gameplay still has nothing in common with gw1, theyve still failed.
id love a clone but id have settled for a distant resemblance, or something fun. didn’t get either, and i dont care how pretty my character looks in a game that isnt fun to play.
i dont care that much about healing skill. but creating a viable healer build – that would be big.
Wouldn’t work since the game supports group heals very poorly. It might be useful when playing with new players, but the game quickly gets to a point where it’s fairly easy and you deal with incoming damage by completely avoiding it, rather than compensating for it via healing.
so what youre saying is… we need a prot monk.
really all I wanted.
didn’t order this bullkitten with downed state and pointless trait decissions and crap.
Can we make a ‘new game mode’ thats just gw1 with a z axis? Can that be a thing? because i’ll bet a couple patches of tweeking could get THAT game to esport status.
we can call it “GvG” or something. it’ll be fun, you know, unlike this.
No one can cast the game WELL. They might be entertaining to watch or hear, but if they aren’t providing enough information so that someone who has never played the game before can know what’s happening, they aren’t doing their job. Unfortunately, the game is very unforgiving to shoutcasters because of the “slow non-risk, high-reward” meta and an overload of particle effects and very hard to see animations. An example of a game that is shoutcaster-friendly is League of Legends. This game is easier for shoutcasters to cast because EVERY skill is easily identifiable and if you were to play a replay (which happens often in tournaments), you can tell a play-by-play of what happened and why it turned the fight in ones’ favor. GW2 just isn’t made to be “esports” because no one can cast it or even watch it and understand what’s happening.
yet were still stuck with terrible gameplay and mechanics like downed state on the hopes it will become a spectator esport. …
its a kitten bad idea and anet are a bunch of kitten bads for ignoring all the beta testers who cleverly finessed ‘kitten bad’ into more palettable words.
thats what i think.
does it work during leveling? not really no. you mostly level solo, or with 1 partner. if grinding was a viable leveling system it’d be fine though, but its really not.
pve world events? sure? theyre kitten anyways, you just dipping bird your keyboard and get gold.
pve dungeons? see above, but no more dipping bird, now you have to pay attention, so no more fun for you as you dodge overly telegraphed 1 shot kills and spam buttons without real strategy, just ‘dodge’ events.
spvp? its pretty kittenty, and bad, but at least its entertaining for the spectators of our massive esport following to see… o, wait.
world pvp? rallying is… exactly as the op described it.
so overall its kittenty and bad and they shouldnt have removed the holy trinity when their replacement was kitten bad. i have no love for the trinity, but it was a lot better than this.
healing seed, every time you are hit you heal yourself and nearby allies for x.
orison of healing….
lololol j/k, those would be tried and proven good ideas. arenanets gotta be innovative and copy something from borderlands or some kitten.
Goodjob ANet you finally implemented something I told you to implement a month after release. Dedicated healer, please?!
sounds like you and i both jumped the gun. by new heal skills he meant new slot #6 options… so no actual changes, except perhaps a slight stirring of a boring and uncomplicated meta.
well… I’ll give you another shot at fooling me, sure.
Personally the rewards don’t do much for me, so I havn’t much to offer the current conversation – but as things move on discussing the rebirth of some heling mechanics and the new game types… I’ll give it another go round.
(I say the rebirth of healing mechanics in response to a comment that new healing skills are available… I am making more than a bit of an assumption here I know, but I guess Im hoping for the best because being a pessemist gets old after a while.)
ya i know by now, behind closed doors, anet has admitted pvp is bad. That they messed up and this game mode is a failure.
So… why not develop an entirely new game mode, with traits and utility skills (and weapon skills) that arent trash can? How long would that take? To just start over from scratch because there’s almost nothing worth salvaging from their origional bad pvp except the artwork?
Speaking of art… really, sometimes your frawing just sucks so much you should grab a blank peice of paper instead of trying to add more details and some color to hope things get fixed.
Lets… just start over. Use gw1 Prophecies as your inspiration… go from there.
alright, ima say it:
LoL is not a PvP game, it’s an experiment in the dunnan krueger effect (sp).
hm.
recognition matters. per game score boards to seasonal leader boards to account history statistics, thats human yea.
but fun gameplay matters more. especially to pvpers. it takes a special kind of person to neither care at all about recognition of any kind, or to care only about recognition and not about the fact their gameplay is awful.
enter the pve farmer and the pvp enthusiast.
…
most pve and pvp players are less than their extreems but… getting to the point, milo is right on this one, or at least more right
the problem with gw2 pvp, and gameplay in general: they made the mechanics too simple.
removing the healer didnt so much ‘break the holy trinity and allow creative balanced builds’ as it just took away an option and left a huge playerbase without a prefered role, all because it was one of the more in demand jobs.
it goes on though, not only did they remove healers, they also simplified enchantments, conditions, and hexes – to a point where strategic decision making is minimized and spam is encouraged.
after that they made really poor balance decisions, evidinced by te traits and downed state abilities at launch. not only were these all over the place in terms of balance, they lacked a cascading system of properties, which are integral to the type of ‘talent tree’ gw2 was intent on mimicing. The game needed more than two (typically parallel) layers. (trait line, skill type, ie cantrip).
finally they pushed stuff like downed state upon their players despite feedback that it was terrible. This is a representation of a certain hubris, and unwillingness to admit that not all of their efforts to break the mold were golden. some were just bad, but anet was, seemingly, too proud to admit this and compromise on a more classic system.
no.
reason: hubris
explanation: the game is great in a lot of ways. mechanics and balance? Not fun at all.
gw2 tried to innovate on a lot of frontiers, and they crossed a line here they shouldnt have. now they should take it back, but there’s no way they’ll swallow their pride and admit it.
im not gaming pro, but which other pvp would you point superior to gw2?
LoL is esport
it is, but is it good pvp?
im not gaming pro, but which other pvp would you point superior to gw2?
Farmville.
still haven’t heard any names.
guild wars 1?
Guys suggestions like these just don’t make any sense.
If there are specific skills that you’re having trouble with, then that would be far more productive to suggest changes to than eliminating a big dynamic of the game just because you don’t like it.
you’re right, kittening like I do isn’t likely to get the devs attention and yield the desired result. A child who politely and calmly asks for things gets more than one who throws tantrums.
But I’m pretty convinced these devs are too innept and under staffed to ever give me anything enjoyable, so I use them as verbal punching bags instead. I get more pleasure mocking their poor decisions than I’m likely to ever get from playing their game.
I note, my disgruntlement is not explicitly with the pvp devs, but with whomever launched thinking pvp was at a servicible place and the refused to give that team resources they badly needed to catch up.
The only thing ive really got against the pvp devs would be that this game in absolutely no way resembles gw1, and they obviously didnt win any fights about developing pvp mechanics or traits, even seperately from pve…
you know its not just the failure…
i once assembled a team of 7 players to cast wastrel’s worry with soul barbs… only to have one of my team ask “why dont we just spam flare as mesmers and suck in purple while doing equally awful damage?”
but i admitted my idea sucked and then we… tried the mesmer thing actually. it wasnt a good day for us.
my point is, why cant anet admit it sucks and try someone elses idea… like guild wars 1’s, with like, deck building and team strategies and stuff.
just checking back in, has anet released a sequel to guild wars 1 yet?
Or are we still playing a ‘twitch’ game without like, aiming, or juking, or other recognizable features that make twitch gameplay entertaining?
hm, guildwars 2 isnt a deck building strategizing team coordination game.
its a twitchy semi tactic rotation game.
only theres no aiming, and targeting sucks, and its only innovation was the idea that weapons determine your first 5 skills… which wasnt exactly clever.
what?! downed state has problems?!
sorry but downed state was a good idea on paper that sucked in practice and made people quit pvp. its complete lack of balancing effort really just underlined that pvp was an after thought and anets insistance that it stay in the game despite all criticism bespeaks hubris
wait…
pvp was under developed at launch.
pvp was staffed lightly on the premise that metagame shifts provide their own content development, and so a large staff was unecessary.
so pvp is launched missing spectator, match making, ranking, and fun – without the resources to add any of these…
were wondering why anet hasnt committed the resources to address this problem?
probably because anet doesnt agree with that synopsis. when the pvp department head presents progress do you really think he says: my department fail bombed, give me more monies to fix plz?
If we did remove ranks, we would probably give our players something to show off their achievement.
Farming not withstanding, we understand that many of our players have done a lot and we would never intentionally do anything to undermine that.
But on the otherhand, you barely do anything to prevent it. Slow mitigation is nothing.
Sorry for being harsh, but may i suggest something that would solve multiple problems?
In hotjoin, since glory is given at the end of the match now, give glory only to the winner team. This way, random zerging would stop, hotjoin could turn to be something where people can actually learn the basics, where they are motivated (and forced) to bring the right decisions. Currently it will only teach bad habits to newcomers and reward those bad habits and zergs ways better than rated arena players.
I think it would be easy and fast to do.
i think people would find a way to team stack that kitten and farm like crazy
I think the people in this thread will stick around for after the patch since they get the most enjoyment out of laughing at this games development and the hilarious ragepost after the patch..
I know for one that I will stay around, farm skyhammer for rank*, open a chest on my parked char, travel back and forth between wvw and the mists to crank up the population numbers ^^, join hotjoins and drop out once a day for the lulz, farm some bosses if one would spawn in the time that im online, do a hotjoin and focus the lowes rank for a couple of matches so he drops out in despair, making a trial account and drop all my saved up siege in useless places, then i would go to cof, and lead a a party to the end, and quickly leave so the whole party gets kicked out, and numerous outher thing…
Iow. helping anet to make sure this game is dead as soon as possible
I give kudos, but I’m too lazy. Instead I’ll just fkame on the forums
Yes, this is another QQ post, I ain’t scared to be honest since you’d have to be mentally insane to not be bothered the development speed of sPvP, or to be one of those disgusting Glory Farmers.
I believe its been 4 patches that sPvP was left to rot without any support, and yet PvE got their content every patch. Yet some still argue that PvE doesn’t have enough, I guess they are spoiled rotten. (I’m not a programmer and have no idea how long it takes to develop these new features but I don’t agree that it should take this long with good resources)
After surviving for the year of slow Spvp development, I believe its about time that I stop Guild Wars 2 if this patch goes wrong, I have been buying lots of gems in hoping to help out gw2 but I was left with barely nothing in return.
Every time I go on these forums Its only to get even more depressed by how serious/critical these issues are and how Anet doesn’t seem to give Enough kittens about it. Like having farmers get the best of rewards and leaving us dedicated PvPers pockets nearly empty. This is a CRITICAL ISSUE and it should have been HOTFIXED as SOON as POSSIBLE. Us dedicated SPvPers have been supporting this game for a full year, we have been loyal, we gave feedback, we have been giving our opinions in order to help this game out, yet these PvErs come in and get ALL THESE BEAUTIFUL FINISHERS and TITLES by kittening FARMING! everything that took us huge amounts of our time to acquire.
Now i’d like to know you guys opinion, if the patch is bad, are you willing to put up with this crap for another 2 months or 4 patches, or are you going to give up?
dude im sorry but youre a sucker.
GW2 launched without key pvp infastructure and, from the looks of it, one guy to program it and 3 people to strategise how he spends his time… they did so poorly, btw. whomever thought paid tournaments was going to work doesnt understand the internet, and ignored about a dozen threads saying so.
This game will never be the spiritual successor to gw1 pvp, not even anything good.
if you want fun mtg inspired pvp games to throw money at, look up a kickstarter.
Blizzard made Diablo 3…
fans made Path of Exile.
GW1 will have it’s sequel, someone somewhere is working on it im sure. But it wont come from these jokers who lied about what they were selling you.
Additionally, Evan has been credited with a few too many accomplishments. What I mean here is: Why wasnt another person working on problem b, c, d… while Evan tackled A? Instead we just waited for a short eternity for him to work his way down the stack, apparently.
They likely have a number of their people working on behind-the-scenes bigger things. For example, custom arenas and spectator mode probably took a lot of coding. The new rewards system is probably taking a ton too. So while Evan is a bit more public and getting recognition (which is awesome), its very likely that others are still putting in work, but they are doing projects that don’t get the kind of big support that Evan’s might.
TL;DR – Evan is the quarterback, all the other programmers are line-men. Or if you’re not American, Evan is the striker, everyone else are defenders.
k giving evan code monnkeys to do his bidding would be a good way to throw some money at this.
im actually under the impression that he’s just soloing this kitten, or close to. I dont see them announcing features and saying ‘evan and our programming team’ … they just say evan, which usually means it’s just evan. unless theyre awful about giving credit in streams.
I didnt even try w8. Here’s my take on Windows.
Every other … ‘edition’ they attempt to innovate, and release a 1/2 baked product. The next edition will fix most of the problems with the new innovations.
Windows2000 (good)
Windows ME (…)
Windows XP (good)
Windows Vista (…)
Windows 7 (good)
Windows 8… i hear not so good, but i didnt fall for it this time.
want to break my comout…. hm. Nope, no I cant say I feel that urge.
You need help.
well, the mmo pvp community… is actually sort of small compared to the mmo pve community… so unless were poaching moba players, the logic isnt so flawed.
Divinity read their glass door reviews.
You’re right, throwing money at problems, especially coding problems, can be alarmingly unhelpful. You’re stuck waiting for one brain to figure how all the peices will fit together, and only then can you delegate.
…
But it sounds like anet is losing employees for a number of reasons that CAN be fixed with money, and in software development, a lost employee is a pretty big potential set back.
Additionally, Evan has been credited with a few too many accomplishments. What I mean here is: Why wasnt another person working on problem b, c, d… while Evan tackled A? Instead we just waited for a short eternity for him to work his way down the stack, apparently.
yea, showing indignant outrage on the gaming forum. surefire way to hurt the feelings of whomever is draining tens of millions out of the games development cycle. im sure that person cares a lot about the games success, and is in no way just looting the place before moving on to the next company.
Why do we have weapons that hybrid damage and condi damage?
What does it bring to the game?
I look back on other games which include cumbersome elements one creatively builds around, and I see some differences.
Guild Wars One had Doylak Signet, anybody remember that? The only use I ever found was on a spirit spam ranger. But it was optional wether or not I brought it. That was a theme, you had the choice to leave it behind.
Or it was just a bad skill everyone carried, and using it brought kudos from other players. Like getting melee kills in shooter games.
I don’t see that in gw2. I just see poor weapon design.
Why does the longbow exist in tpvp?
Why are there these blatantly poor decisions everywhere i look in this game a year after launch? Even in the traits which have been revisited. Why?