downed state is bad for PVP
I’d like to see a “most skilled” prize given to the server with the best #kills/population.
downed state is bad for PVP
Yes, so the only actual improvement in GW2 is the persistent world, and even that is still somewhat instanced as you can only get from one zone to another through portals. (See WoW for how to do it right.) The only other advantage I can think of for GW2 is the AH – and that’s also not nearly as good as in many other MMOs. Everything else in GW2 is worse or at least no better than GW1. That’s just… sad.
Yes I really think they made a colossal mistake in leaving out the best parts of the original game: the skill depth & variety, the amount of build choice through secondary classes, skill capping, elite skills, mobs using player skills with decent AI.
As with any software product, the bits you replace have to be better than the bits you’re replacing, and in GW2, they aren’t.
downed state is bad for PVP
Sad but true.
WVW could be improved a lot but i don’t think it was any kind of failure, quite the opposite.
sPVP on the other hand has almost no redeeming qualities, i don’t like a single thing about it.
Top dislikes about GW2 PVP:
- downed state. it’s so bad it’s IMO a gamekiller.
- skills/traits. not enough variety and meaningful player choice in skills, and traits are on the whole pretty ineffectual. bizarrely, the depth and variety of skills was GW1’s greatest strength and most game-defining trait.
- the spammy nature of combat/lack of a resource mechanic.
Everything else I can live with.
downed state is bad for PVP
(edited by scerevisiae.1972)
Great news.
Now if the Obsidian Sanctum space could grow into a GW2 version of DAOC’s Darkness Falls (ie: a PVP dungeon that also offers high-end PVE content), I’d be one happy customer.
downed state is bad for PVP
An option to disable downed state in all subsequent PVP and WVW matches.
downed state is bad for PVP
They need to just forget the whole esports thing. This pvp is not an esport. End story.
It’s not even good PVP, let alone esport-worthy. The fundamentals are all wrong and joe pvp mainstream will never accept downed state as it is.
downed state is bad for PVP
support was buffed for Ele, but staff Ele was already good at support, and who wants to be pidgeonholed into only playing support on a staff Ele anyway?
conjure skills were buffed (again) yet the problem has always been how clunky they are to use so while conjures might see some novelty use for a while it’s difficult to see them as a serious utility slot choice. Also hard to see trading 20 skills for 5 as a good trade.
downed state is bad for PVP
(edited by scerevisiae.1972)
I think it’s weak that nothing’s been done about Ele dependance on high arcane just to make the class bearable to play in PVP. This has been a core complaint on the Ele forums since the game has released, and is the #1 limiting factor restricting my enjoyment of the class vis a vis trying different builds.
Simply put, every Ele build is less effective (in PVP) than anything with 15+ water, 30 arcane because of (IMO) the fundamentally bad design of requiring frequent attunement switches but making the arcane line the only way of reducing attunement CDs.
More traits like Fresh Air are desperately required, and/or speccing an elemental line should reduce that attunements CD.
Also worth mentioning of all the classes I play, Ele has the highest proportion of garbage traits.
downed state is bad for PVP
dungeon forums are that way —>
30 arcane is still the best PVP/WVW talent, and not just because of 9sec attunement recharge.
10 in arcana is all we’ve needed for a few patches. D/d lost its luster a while back and all you’re trying to do is hold onto its build.
10 in arcana gives you 12 sec attunement CDs. If your taking fresh air you’re constantly under swiftness/fury and doing good sustained and burst dmg. The boon duration from going 30 into arcana is hardly noticeably when only going with 10.
IMHO take 20 from arcana and relocate it into other trees and try out some more builds.
And pick up a focus with either scepter or dagger and go from there.
I can only surmise you’re some kind of PVE player in which case I’d say you can literally spec anything and still faceroll all the content in this game.
I almost exclusively solo and smallgroup roam in WVW. In that context, 30 arcane is easily the best talent to base a build around. Focus isn’t a viable roaming choice and neither is a a GC fresh air gimmick build (except for lolz).
downed state is bad for PVP
Comet is fine I’m surprised people still see it in a poor light.
Gale is also fine, and it be clearer if fire flame wall, freezing gust and fire shield were up to par.People here dont understand the difference on reach of every spell and their range
A ranged knockdown that lasts so much is a pretty good skill.If half of people here tried an actual competitive game lika a moba in their life they would understand things better.
Personally im trying to get the max out of the kit.Flame wall is at least a very long fire field,comet is great on stoping rezzers or stompers and fire shield really really works great when you are getting damage from many smaller sources of damage like pets ,clones,minions etcIm not saying focus is bad. I’m just saying, compare it to dagger. why would you ever say water for focus is better than water for dagger. same with air. updraft is a million times better than gale anyday. RTL and winds have their places. Ring of fire is also a million times better than flamewall and fire grab a million times better than fire shield. dont assume stuff, please.
It’s not better, it’s a different gameplay.
With a dagger your mostly rely on your dps with a bit of very close range control, while with focus you rely on interupt to win.
In a 1vs1 situation, you have 0% chance to win as a d/d against a d/f at equal skill, because the d/f can cover his heal and interupt your 2 times, 3 (without any cast at 1200 range) if he’s an asura.
Scrap that asura crap, that has nothing to do with focus and dagger. Gale and comet are very unreliable to be used as an interrupt on an ele who is healing unless its ER. they are both a 3/4s cast. one heal you cant even interrupt since its a signet. you seem to forget dagger has two interrupts as well, and while they may be melee distance, since the only heal that you can rupt is ER you will have time to run up to that other ele and do said rupt.
Not to mention the massive damage and much better mobility dagger has to focus. Fire grab? CE? quake? frost aura? cleanse and heal? If youre saying two ranged interrupts trump two melee interrupts, cleanse+heal, mobility, massive damage, (highest for ele in one shot) and a much larger fire field, then sure thats on you. you can say that. but you look just silly when you do. Dagger is so much more versatile than focus. and yes, its a play style. but when given to players of equal skill the dagger will win every day.Sorry but you’re wrong. If you face 2 eles of equal skill, 1 with dagger and 1 with focus. The focus ele will win every time. All you’ll be able to do with your dagger is run away.
The focis’ defense, invulnerability, condi cleanse, slow, 2 knockdowns, range negation, reflect… All trump the dagger in a fight of equal skill.
What? It wouldn’t even be close. Offhand dagger has superior heals, superior dps and superior mobility. The only things focus is good for is fighting heavy condi users and ranged projectile spammers (ie: not another Ele).
downed state is bad for PVP
1) downed state in PVP. why? what does it achieve?
2) why not allow utilities in the elite slot (as per GW1)?
3) why was the energy resource removed?
downed state is bad for PVP
All of the things you listed can be achieved with other utilities that don’t require you to give up 20 skills for 5. IMO you’re crazy.
tbh our other utilities are pretty bad and arguably worse than conjures since they all do something another utility does and especially more noteworthy than Arcane Wave/Blast.
If you think cantrips are bad then you’re beyond help. Cantrips and 0/10/0/30/30 is still the strongest build around.
downed state is bad for PVP
1 thing’s for sure, shout warrior didn’t need any buffs and yet they got them.
downed state is bad for PVP
Please fix the bug where i need to spend 30 points in arcane and 15+ in water just the make the class tolerable to play. Making signets and glyphs even worth considering over cantrips would also be nice.
downed state is bad for PVP
neither. choose mesmer or warrior.
downed state is bad for PVP
I think what you mean is that glyphs and signets need to be made viable first.
downed state is bad for PVP
dungeon forums are that way —>
30 arcane is still the best PVP/WVW talent, and not just because of 9sec attunement recharge.
downed state is bad for PVP
New skills.
Better trait balance
A wvw/PvP dungeon like daoc darkness falls
Removal of downed state from PvP zones
downed state is bad for PVP
(edited by scerevisiae.1972)
you’d get more DPS from persisting flames and GoEP/GoEH used on CD with the inscription trait.
so no, lava axe is still useless.
downed state is bad for PVP
Wasn’t any of the pitiful buffs to staff completely undermined by the AoE nerf?
yes and when you subtract the redundant buffs to conjures (which noone but PVE players will use), there isn’t anything worth a kitten for Eles. Terrible patch. The sad thing is, there will be nothing done now for another 2 months.
downed state is bad for PVP
All of the things you listed can be achieved with other utilities that don’t require you to give up 20 skills for 5. IMO you’re crazy.
downed state is bad for PVP
I for one can’t understand why they haven’t done something about the need for 20+ arcane 15+ water in every sane PVP spec.
downed state is bad for PVP
Conjures are still terribly clunky to use, and still force you to give up 20 skills for 5 (and cost you a utility slot).
That’s a terrible tradeoff and IMO anyone would be crazy to take a conjure over any other utility.
downed state is bad for PVP
(edited by scerevisiae.1972)
I can’t be the only one that thinks this should of replaced Zephyr’s Speed for the 5 points in air trait?
Most ele’s are running perma swiftness and the real waste is the 10% 5 point trait imo
Yep and nearly a third of Ele traits are total garbage.
downed state is bad for PVP
I would’ve preferred a straight 25% movement speed while in air. The 133% speed on attunement isn’t enough a bonus to make the trait worthwhile.
downed state is bad for PVP
reroll necro and pwn everyone with autoattack + 1 utility.
downed state is bad for PVP
Regardless of how boring they may or may not be, I think the main issue with Ele traits is how horribly balanced they are. >50% of them are total rubbish.
There’s also still the issue of requiring 20+ arcane and 15+ water in every (WVW) spec worth a kitten .
downed state is bad for PVP
More doesn’t equal better. Only 10% of the Guild Wars 1 skills were awesome, and only 30% really useful. And balancing was a pain.
However, if you must have more skills, play an Elementalist.
You get 5 weapons with 20 skills each (100 total), 60 traits, 3 healing skills, 20 utility skills, 4 elites, 25 skills from conjured weapons, 4 skills on attunement swap, 4 skills on dodge, 4 skills when falling. That’s 224 skills and THEN you can also combo with your fields of those of other players for even more options or pickup environmental weapons, siege engines or racial skills.
…and yet in practise this game feels like there is a real lack of player choice. I think this is mainly due to:
- lack of a resource system (energy) and a distinct lack of skills with conditional effects (eg: GW1 hexes like fragility), and
- too many garbage traits, and
- traits lines being strongly tied to stats & weapon choices, ie: your weapon and utility choices usually determine your traits. Together with selecting the “msut-have” trait(s), there’s no real choice involved.
So even though numerically it would seem this game has as much choice as Prophecies, in practise it doesn’t, at all. In fact the lack of choice is stifling.
downed state is bad for PVP
The problem with having no resource system as GW2 does is that makes the game tactically shallower as it reduces the number of things that attacks can affect (the attack surface), effectively turning every skill into just another damage skill. It also promotes a spammy style of gameplay.
Energy would not necessarily have slowed the game down – just look at how thieves play – but it would have made it so that there were pauses in the combat and/or effort put into managing energy through skills/traits.
Personally I much prefer having a resource system as it makes for richer & more interesting combat, eg: denying energy to mitigate damage.
downed state is bad for PVP
All the more reason why we should be able to equip utilities in the elite slot.
downed state is bad for PVP
I run D/F, and I don’t find earth and air #4 redundant at all. Earth #4 requires impeccable timing to reflect and has a very small area of reflection, so it only works against single-target projectiles. Air doesn’t have those limitations.
They’re both pretty redundant when fighting a melee warrior…
I think it’s poor design to double up on anti-projectile when focus completely lacks heals and mobility.
downed state is bad for PVP
Air 4 is absolutely amazing. 6 seconds of huge aoe projectile nullification is just really good for its recharge. Honestly Air 5 is in a worse state just because of recharge.
I don’t think focus needs mobility if it actually gets to a point where it can area control efficiently like it should. However, it needs a lot of work to get there.
Air #4 is totally redundant as Earth #4 already reflects projectiles. Air #4 should be a blind (pulses every 3sec) + swiftness and/or lightning field.
IMO focus is totally useless in PVP (read: WVW) until it gets mobility and/or heals enough to make it comparable in effectiveness to /D. /D and /F are nowhere near comparably effective ATM, even with focus’ overpowered earth skills.
downed state is bad for PVP
(edited by scerevisiae.1972)
condition Ele isn’t viable & Eles already need all the stats they can get, so condi dmg is basically the lowest priority.
downed state is bad for PVP
Anyways, staff is going to have better support, conjures are going to be stronger, warrior’s pve damage trait is going to be moved a tier up, and assassin’s s/d boon stealing is going to be toned by half. All goods news to elementalists in pve and in pvp.
except that:
- 20+ arcane still required for the class to be tolerable
- 15+ water still required for any non-joke PVE build
- around a third of traits are total garbage
- signet build still kitten weak
- glyph build still kitten weak
- conjures still kitten clunky
- focus lol
…and that conjure buffs won’t help because…
Conjures don’t get used cause they are badly designed: they feel really clunky to activate & use, the skills are generally underwhelming, the limited charges are annoying, conjure traits are terrible, and last but not least – they consume a precious utility slot.
The whole design of conjures has no redeeming feature that make them worthwhile- why give up 20 skills to gain 5? they should replace only the skills of their respective element, so you’re free to switch elements as you please. You know, the core class-defining mechanic…
same problems as day #1 of release.
downed state is bad for PVP
(edited by scerevisiae.1972)
Conjures don’t get used cause they are badly designed: they feel really clunky to activate & use, the skills are generally underwhelming, the limited charges are annoying, conjure traits are terrible, and last but not least – they consume a precious utility slot.
The whole design of conjures has no redeeming feature that make them worthwhile- why give up 20 skills to gain 5? they should replace only the skills of their respective element, so you’re free to switch elements as you please. You know, the core class-defining mechanic…
downed state is bad for PVP
(edited by scerevisiae.1972)
The problem with Ele is that all the weapons are really pidgeonholed:
- staff has 19/20 AOE skills, and the only single-target skill (earth #1) is really weak
- sceptre has no CC
- M/H dagger has no range
- focus has no heals or mobility
downed state is bad for PVP
The whole concept of developing/trialling new game modes internally is flawed. They should be throwing them out in the wild using the custom arena system to see what players make of them, then iterating from there.
All of the good PVP games: counterstrike, team fortress, the entire DOTA genre all came from players, not designers. Point being that the best design outcomes come from players and designers collaborating.
In this game, I feel like game design is being rammed down my throat. eg: downed state – hated by most but added to the game solely so they could sell gimmick finishers in the cash shop.
downed state is bad for PVP
The thing is players like progression and players want progression. Leveling is a form of progression. A lot of times what players say they want is not what they actually want.
As has been said many times in this thread, removing levels doesn’t mean removing progression; the progression comes from other places.
downed state is bad for PVP
lol @ OP, I actually think that MAYBE 1-5% of the GW2 population came from GW1. GW1 was an insanely tiny niche game.
Completely untrue. GW1 sold about twice the number of boxes GW2 did, 6 millions in fact. That is not a niche game by any measure.
http://www.guildwars.com/events/press/releases/pressrelease-2009-04-24.php
As for the OP, sure GW2 borrowed more heavily from WOW than GW1, so for sure players who were really into GW1 were always bound to be disappointed.
What puzzles me the most is just how many GW1 mechanics were left out of GW2: skill captures, elite skills, good PVP, and the deck-building aspect of GW1 were all novel/iconic aspects of GW1 and they were all left out of GW2, IMO to its detriment.
downed state is bad for PVP
(edited by scerevisiae.1972)
I think its easier to go the other way.
Things GW1 can take from GW2:
The graphics.
Z axis.
….
….
….
Yea that’s it.
Sad but true.
1) skill capturing (why did they leave this out?)
2) freedom of choice in skills
3) dual classes/skill crossover (aka build diversity)
4) monsters using player skills with decent AI
downed state is bad for PVP
The only viable build with the staff is support/healing.
Besides anyone who thought “dps all the way” left ele a long time ago.
Thats funny, because Ele is #1 dps in PvE.
Ele is #3 but it’s a pretty close call.
Theorycrafted DPS is close to worthless. Theorycrafted DPS versus a 100% immobile target is even more close to worthless.
downed state is bad for PVP
I think the high cast-times are a factor but the main reason is that the signets themselves are pretty weak and don’t offer any survivability or mobility. Glyphs suffer from the same problem, except they are even weaker and slower casting with crappier traits. Kitten knows what they were smoking when they designed conjures.
Unfortunately, Ele has been designed to require survivability-oriented skills in the utility slots and signets, glyphs, and conjures all don’t cut it.
downed state is bad for PVP
(edited by scerevisiae.1972)
Fire shield doesn’t last long enough, burning stacks duration not intensity, and you’d have to have a crazy spec like 20/10/10/30/0 to pull it off. Have fun playing Ele with no arcane…
downed state is bad for PVP
Designing a jack-of-all-trades class has failed in every game it’s been tried and quite frankly they should have known better. Inevitably, these classes are either 1) weak to the point of being disparaged and shunned by other players, or 2) totally overpowered.
eg: WOW druid at release was jack-of-all-trades and widely denigrated as useless, 1 year later completely reworked to allow deep specialisation in melee dps OR ranged dps OR heals OR tanking while retaining low-level competency in all 4.
GW2 is much the same and is suffering the same fate. Ele is even more poorly designed due to being locked out of their versatility by base 16sec CD (hence why you see virtually every PVP/WVW player speccing into 20-30 arcane just to play the class at a baseline level).
The obvious solution is the approach blizzard took – allow players to specialise in one aspect/role at the expense of others, eg: speccing 30 fire passively reduces fire attunement CD to 5sec, something along those lines, or actively through Fresh Air-like talents in each elemental line.
downed state is bad for PVP
d / d and staff are great in WvW! Just need a clever build.
keep telling yourself that, all i see when i see a D/D Ele now is easy badges.
downed state is bad for PVP
- fix the kittening focus: fire #4, #5, air #4, water #4 are all terrible or redundant
- fix dragon’s tooth: ground-targeted or faster animation+less damage
- fix shatterstone: long delay + poor dmg coefficient = silly
- signet build still kitten weak
- glyph build still kitten weak
- conjures still clunky
These problems have existed since BWE3. Now you guys are re-buffing staff after nerfing it to hell, not to mention D/D has also been nerfed into extinction. Kindly rethink your priorities before kittening up anything else.
downed state is bad for PVP
(edited by scerevisiae.1972)
Still, for the elementalist to require a full skilled trait line in order to archieve the same swap time that other classes have as base CD.
Why say that in a negative tone.
For an Ele to have the same Weapon swap between two elements yes it’s a full 30. However there are four.
Yes but the overall power of each attunement line is weaker than regular weapon sets.
The way Ele has been designed in this game, 20 or more arcane is required just to make the class playable. When a large proportion of the playerbase is speccing 20+ arcane just to make the class playable, reducing the attunement timer to something more reasonable is just common sense.
downed state is bad for PVP
Yes, anet nerfed ele’s into the ground and they are worthless now.
As for the guy who says his ele does more damage than warriors: No, you don’t. Stop the lies.
- The following is for PvE –
Over at GW2Guru there’s a post outlining how much damage staff elementalists can pump out.
Link –
http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/85568-lh-is-the-new-bearbow-the-real-staff-dps-build-for-manly-men/Also, at the below post, comment #30, Guang crunches the numbers for each class with max buffs. Elementalists came in third at ~13K DPS; warriors are sixth ~10K DPS.
In comment #35 he explains the criteria/conditions needed to achieve that amount.https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/guardian/Guardians-in-Dungeon-Runs
theoretical calculations are worthless.
downed state is bad for PVP
Has anybody theory-crafted a Conjure Build-Staff support type ele yet? I’ve read they’re gonna be buffed next patch. Will possibly be the new flavor sauce for ele. Who knows. I mean, I myself didn’t believe Ranger Spirits were gonna have they’re shining moment not until I saw with my own eyes the mess it caused.
Noone’s going to take conjures seriously for PVP while they continue to be so clunky to use, and while Ele is so desperately tied to cantrips for survivability, or arcanes for burst.
downed state is bad for PVP