downed state is bad for PVP
lol at people who feel like arcana is a mandatory trait line
being addicted to evasive arcana is one thing, but that’s all it is: being addicted to it. it’s not at all mandatory, and it isn’t better than other trait lines
it’s because water and arcane have the only GM trait worth a kitten (plus fresh air perhaps, though i find it a total gimmick trait).
EA/arcane is good because it works whatever attunement you may be in.
water line is mandatory for survivability.
downed state is bad for PVP
(edited by scerevisiae.1972)
the times should include summoning and buffing time.
downed state is bad for PVP
was a kitten stupid idea for a trait in the first place.
downed state is bad for PVP
you should be able to switch attunements while holding a conjured weapon.
would be better to have a conjured weapon last twice as long instead of dropping 2 of them too.
downed state is bad for PVP
As i’ve been saying for weeks now, Elemental Attunement is a class-defining trait. A caster-only version of it should be baseline, then you can have a 20pt trait for the AOE version.
downed state is bad for PVP
Please note here that Warriors can spec into removing all movement impairing effects with mobility skills.
Also, RtL is affected by immobilize and, unlike spin, is not an evade. If you immobilize an Ele right before he RtL’s, you have a few seconds of just free damage while they’re locked out of all their skills.
Also, why shouldn’t Ele’s have better mobility then a warrior? Why should the Mesmer, Thief, and Warrior all have better escape options then an Ele when they all have more health, or armor, or both.
And lastly, I think Warriors can still move faster then previous-RtL by using Sword/* + GS.
This. Something is broken when a heavy, plate-wearing high-HP class is substantially more mobile than the light, cloth-wearing lowest HP class. I like my warrior but the combination of sustain, CC, dmg and mobility is kinda ridiculous. GS + Sw/? is more mobile than my D/D Ele ever was.
downed state is bad for PVP
(edited by scerevisiae.1972)
@scerevisiae
ya 18.5k hp
I don’t think you’re convincing anyone. The last patch only made Ele’s worse.
downed state is bad for PVP
I have 14k hmmmm. 6sec prot on 10s earth swap. 3 1/2s prot on aura every 25s with static aura 4s static shield w/stun (tempest defense) + another 3 1/2 with frost armor 40s blast. + 12s prot forge runes. + armor of earth 7s prot..
with 100% prot uptime, your 14K HP merely turns into 18.5K effective HP, less than a full zerker warrior, whoopedy-do.
Ele still sucks overall IMO due to overnerfs and fundamental design issues (enforced versatility).
downed state is bad for PVP
interesting to note that none of these problems were problems in the original game.
design regressions FTL.
downed state is bad for PVP
down state is working as intended, there is no reason to remove it.
if you fail to finish off your downed opponents, it is your fault, understand?
Thats your personal opinion
it is a fact, actually.
no it’s an opinion as well.
what is a fact though, is that this game’s PVP has failed fairly spectacularly by any objective measure, and it is the opinion of many, that downed state/rallying is one of the major causes of that failure.
even by the straw poll in this thread (http://strawpoll.me/853596/r), nearly half the voters want to see DS removed, who knows what proportion of the players that have already quit would also have wanted it gone. it stands to reason (and to bayesian statistical theory) that the proportion would have been higher, possibly much higher.
downed state is bad for PVP
To those saying downed state is in replace of healers, that is incorrect. Everyone has self heals and evades in replace of healers. It patches that role nicely. And if downed state was out of the game they’d take measures to increase the games ttk in both pvp and pve. Mobs would hit for less so you’d be able to sustain yourself with your heals better, while the risks would be in the mechanics, not 10k auto swings and instant death abilities. In pvp self heals already work just fine in replace of healers. Self heal + anytype of support build keeps people alive. Healers would put it over the top and no one would ever die. Downed state is NOT in replace of healers, it’s just their “interesting” mechanic that isn’t so interesting and causes Very bad drawbacks across the ENTIRE game.
While I agree with everything you said, I think the main reason DS was put in the game was so they could try to sell finishers.
Whenever I have spoken to friends I PVP with in other games, downed state/rally is always cited as the #1 turnoff along with how visually messy/spammy the combat looks.
Combined with the legions of threads and posts since beta about the problems with DS, I can only wonder what this game could have been if it didn’t have downed state shackling it down. Downed state was a self-fulfilling prophecy for the state of the game’s PVP.
downed state is bad for PVP
downed state is the main reason why i don’t PVP in this game. that’s how much I hate it.
if you play badly and lose 100% of your HP you should die, or if you take somedown to 0% of their HP they should die, you should not be forced to play some ridiculous tic-tac-toe mini-game that bears no resemblance to the game’s combat.
downed state is bad for PVP
i’m still using the same pre-patch trait allocation – 0/0/10/30/30, full celestial
tried some other variants, but this one still feels most comfortable for my playstyle.
Agree, 0/10/0/30/30 is still the best. Don’t go zerker in zergs, you’ll rally half the enemy zerg when you die.
downed state is bad for PVP
The whole concept is bad: 100% immunity above 90% then 100% useless below it.
downed state is bad for PVP
Downed state is there to make up for the lack of healers that other mmo games have. If we didn’t have it, we would need a lot more support abilities added to the game. Fights would be over too fast, burst would be king and there would be little point of team support. An ability to toggle down state off in custom arenas would be nice to make use of for dueling, but as I said people would get sick of being 100-0 bursted instantly from a team stealth opener in normal matches. At least now it can be countered with a rez utility or a skill such as shadow refuge to revive.
This is just patently wrong, and naive. The game is balanced around the existence of DS – OF COURSE if you remove or turn off DS you re-balance the game around its absence, eg: a 10% HP buff across the board.
If nothing else this thread shows that DS has divided the community, and that is never a good thing when you’re talking game design.
downed state is bad for PVP
Elemental Attunement is a class-defining trait. A caster-only version of it should be baseline, with a 10pt arcana trait to restore the AOE effect.
downed state is bad for PVP
No. Using tornado makes you less effective than not using it. It’s the opposite of elite.
downed state is bad for PVP
which video? 15 chars
downed state is bad for PVP
Maybe you guys should actually try diamond skin because you pretty much sound like you haven’t.
I used it last night in zerg fights and it was awesome. I was immune to fear, immobilize, cripple. I just walked through various necro marks without issue. Pop a stability and barriers/stun become a non-threat as well.
Even in 5-on-many fights it was good. I felt rather epic on my D/D aura-share ele. It doesn’t make you invincible (that would be broken), however it definitely provides advantages that are worthy of a 30pt trait.
That being said, you still need condi removal after you drop below 90% as part of the response to get back above 90%. That why I still prefer ether renewal when I do see conditions appear.
I did try it and I don’t believe you. 10% HP is gone within a second or 2 of any engagement I was involved in, at which point the trait does zero. Btw, you can roll through necro marks to pop them without taking damage already, you don’t need to waste 30 trait points for it.
downed state is bad for PVP
(edited by scerevisiae.1972)
Speccing diamond skin for a zerg fight is just about the worst idea I can think of. Any competent zerg already has an excess of condi removal for starters and the amount of damage flying around makes the trait useless.
downed state is bad for PVP
(edited by scerevisiae.1972)
Reflecting back on Gw1, I am noticing that traits seem to be shackeling ANet. They can’t easily make meaningful change via traits, bcs of the impact to current builds.
Yeah the GW1 system was so much better. Copying the WOW talent tree system was a mistake. Even Blizzard are trying to move away from it.
downed state is bad for PVP
The only way you’re going to make people leave arcane and water is if you…….
Increase base health to medium level.
No the only thing that will free Eles from being shackled to water/arcane is to make compelling traits in the other lines. The new fire and earth traits are pedestrian at best, the Earth 30 trait has 1 use only, and that’s 1v1ing condi classes in a duel arena.
Not to mention, glyphs are crappy, signets are crappy, conjures are crappy, the 30 arcane trait is crappy… everything that is halfway decent is in water/arcane/cantrips. The design and/or implementation of everything else is total kitten.
downed state is bad for PVP
I’m more annoyed by the fact they only changed it cause they couldn’t think of anything better for the new heal skill (which also sucks).
downed state is bad for PVP
Arcane traits are crappy, doesn’t address core issues with the class. Overall a 2.
downed state is bad for PVP
I’m ok with traits changes. Stick with your current build, take vital striking and ether renewal.
ER is useless without a reliable source of stability.
downed state is bad for PVP
Patch achieved the direct opposite of its stated goal, I now need 20+ water/20+ arcane instead of 15 water/20 arcane.
kittening kitten ed off.
downed state is bad for PVP
I can’t play Ele without it. It’s a class-defining trait, it should have been made baseline.
The suckiest change is moving Cleaning Water to 20 water, that was also friggin stupid.
downed state is bad for PVP
Was a terribly-designed and obviously flawed trait from the first suggestion. OP in 1v1 vs a condi class, useless otherwise.
downed state is bad for PVP
After patch it’s plain to me that now if I want to play Ele at all I’m more compelled, not less, to spec 20+ water/arcane (note: PVP zones). Without Cleansing water (water 20) and Healing Ripple (water 15) builds just get decimated by conditions.
Elemental Attunement IMO is a class-defining trait I cannot (and won’t) play without, notwithstanding the much needed access to protection/regen/swiftness, it just feels wrong to play any build without it.
The new Fire 20 trait is a lame duck because it’s passive & requires 3 conditions, meaning it’s impossible to control when it fires and cannot be relied upon. Ether renewal is not a PVP-viable heal without Rock solid, Armour of Earth or some other source of stability.
Overall I think this patch was a big step backward, not forwards & more of a nerf patch than buff. Pretty kitten disappointed & annoyed cause I’d rather play Ele, but other classes are simply far better.
downed state is bad for PVP
I am glad the reward sucks, won’t be as much stacking if there is a season 2
This. The amount of stacking, spying and outright cheating was godkitten appalling.
Would be better if all servers were evenly split into 3 competing leagues, which continued to have weekly tiered matches the way they currently do, eg:
League Team1: BG, Mag, YB, EB, etc
League Team2: JQ, SOS, FA, CD, etc
League Team3: SOR, TC, SBI, BP, etc
first week matches: BG v JQ v SOR, Mag v SOS v TC, etc
Scores from all servers in each league are aggregated.
Then make transfers FREE between servers in your league, and transfers limited to once per day. Transfers across league teams cost $$$.
Effectively solves the stacking problem, and allows servers to equilibrate.
downed state is bad for PVP
I agree… I’d like to OS expanded into a full PVP/PVE dungeon similar to how Darkness Falls was in DAOC (the model on which WVW was based).
I fully support GVG, but IMO it’s ultimately better if GVG remains a part of overall WVW rather than a side-game.
downed state is bad for PVP
apparently this is a thing now…. look its so easy to level up already. you can get to 80 in a day kitten . and besides the game doesnt get anymore fun when you hit 80 anyways so you might aswell give up now
I dont care how easy it was for you.
I care about how fun the game is for me. and being forced to grind for levels just to gain access to the fun features which I paid for, is not good at all.
levels are easy for you, but boring and grindy for me.
I agree. I levelled most of my chars in WVW. Sure it sucks not being on an equal level gear- and trait-wise, but I still found it fun.
downed state is bad for PVP
No PS, no LS either. Silly and uninteresting. While I think about it, so is sPVP.
IMO WVW is the only thing worth playing this game for.
downed state is bad for PVP
Why give up on the ele two days before the buffs?
because they’re not buffs?
For a PVE player the changes might be fine but for most PVP players, the changes will make 20 water 20 arcane the new minimum instead of 15 water 20 arcane.
Not a great result when their stated goal was to reduce the dependency on arcane.
downed state is bad for PVP
It seems like you people are disappointed because this skill is not overpowered.
NO, the reccurring theme is that people are disappointed that the heal does not address core defense and mobility issues with the class. Not to mention the AWave overlap change, which isn’t needed either.
If AB had been a 300range forward or backward blink, even with a very low base heal and say a 15sec CD, people would have been ecstatic.
What we got instead is nothing new.
downed state is bad for PVP
I think Air is generally fine. A Blind, a Knockback, Swiftness and a Static Field are four useful skills. I would like to see the projectile speed on the autoattack increased, and I wish the knockback were more reliable.
The blind should be instant or 0.25sec. The opportunity cost is too high, most Eles don’t even use it.
downed state is bad for PVP
I think AB is pretty disappointing, but then I think the whole game has been pretty disappointing so I guess that means it’s what I expected.
Constructive feedback would be that this heal fails to address any real deficiency with the class – it’s just a heal skill that does damage. I would have expected something that improved mobility or defense in some way, eg: blink forwards 10m and heal, reflect melee dmg for 3sec and heal, something like that.
downed state is bad for PVP
I think it was a mistake to add more heals – lack of choice in weapon skills is by far the bigger problem IMO.
I’d have added new elites before heals as well.
downed state is bad for PVP
Is anyone still playing D/D full water full arcane for real?
You must be a PVEer… High water/arcane is the standard PVP build. Fresh Air is pretty much only found in sPVP.
downed state is bad for PVP
I think the Dec 10 patch changes nothing, all of the good traits are still in arcane & water and nothing worthwhile has been added to the other trees.
The 30 earth trait will be quite OP in a 1v1 vs a high condi dmg spec but in every other situation it will be 100% useless, as 10% HP on an Ele is nothing.
Moving Ele attunement and cleansing water traits up a tier without any kind of improvement of other lines only served to make water and arcane more mandatory, not less.
More than anything this patch just highlights what lazy unimaginative designers there are behind this game that the best they can come up with 12 months post-release is shuffling a few traits around.
downed state is bad for PVP
(edited by scerevisiae.1972)
Noone uses conjured weapons outside of PVE, except for the elite conjure and it’s mostly used for mobility.
A good chunk of the Ele population (myself included) think the whole concept of conjures is antithetic to the whole class: giving up 20 skills + utility slot for 5 other mediocre skills is just plain stupid design.
downed state is bad for PVP
First, if you’re gearing beserker in zergs then you’re only helping the other side. You’ll tag a bunch of people, even down them, but then you’ll be downed yourself in seconds potentially rallying half their zerg again.
Second, have no illusions, your main contribution as an Ele in ZvZ is as a healbot with clutch CC. Damage is a distant 3rd to healing/condition clearing and watching for key CC opportunities, surviving at all costs.
If you want to be a primary damage dealer in zergs and be effective at it, reroll warrior or necro.
downed state is bad for PVP
(edited by scerevisiae.1972)
no, offhand mace is enough control without being complete trash dps in any semi decent group. this is especially so if you have more than one warrior.
no way, hammer can be used to completely lock down a whole group when needed, mace is only a single KD.
downed state is bad for PVP
(edited by scerevisiae.1972)
you can’t go wrong with any 2 of hammer, LB, sword/shield.
downed state is bad for PVP
^Focus was 9%. And burst..guess what? Ppl still sits at maxed adrenaline in pve.
Only if they’re nubs.
You’d be completely gimping yourself in PvE if you didn’t have a Hammer on your warrior. There’s too much utility in that one weapon to ignore regardless of your build.
And don’t say “well speed runs blah blah blah” … we all know how speed runs work. You just exploit the hell out of parts of the dungeon which Anet has refused to admit are available for exploiting.
Hammer utility is completely useless in PvE, the drop in damage compared to an axe or a GS/Axe build is very significant, no one in their right mind would run hammer in PvE.
Actually I think axe/? + hammer is the best PVE combo around. Hammer makes a lot of sense for certain paths, eg: COF p2, or when 1-2 party members are in downed and group needs a few seconds of respite to get things back under control.
Axe for damage, hammer for control.
downed state is bad for PVP
The overmanned server will instantly know they have the advantage. Didn’t anyone pick this up?
um, they already have the advantage?
downed state is bad for PVP
the zerg will just overrun the smaller zergs causing them to have to respawn and run all the way back.
this already happens now. at least if you couldn’t combat-rez defeated players, then a 5-man group who managed to kill a few zergers would have more of a chance versus greater numbers instead of what happens now, which is a few stragglers stay behind to rez the fallen while the rest of zerg surges forward ad infinitum.
downed state is bad for PVP
(edited by scerevisiae.1972)
Yes the situation is rather ludicrous… someone remind what the point of downed state was again? The whole system of downed state/rallying in PVP zones creates nothing but problems and is nothing but a vehicle for stupid finisher sales. Profits > gameplay quality right?
I digress. IMO, at bare minimum for WVW, entering defeated state should force a respawn after 30secs, and you shouldn’t be able to rez defeated players in combat.
Players need tools to assist them to disrupt/outplay mindless zerging, and with the current system, no amount of skilful play can counter a numerically superior side from continually rezzing their fallen over and over.
I hasten to add this has been highlighted as a problem by players since beta.
downed state is bad for PVP
warrior 15chars
downed state is bad for PVP