Guild Wars 2

It says February in your OP but I’m sure you meant March xD.

Fay.2357:

skcamow.3527:

Fay.2357:

Guess what else isn’t being used at the top tournaments? Oh, it’s mesmer as a whole..

Not true.

At the ESL weekly cup last Thursday there was at least one team using standard power shatter. I know helseth would have but he couldn’t play for some reason.

At the EU Go4 cup Sunday there were three, two of which were on the same team.

At the NA Go4 cup there were two.

It’s a little hard to tell, since ESL doesn’t think it’s worth their time to record the classes that people play, but from what I can deduce off of screenshots…not a single team with a mesmer on it even made it into the finals in any of those cups. Often the first round match was even a ridiculous blowout, and they got trounced once they faced a competent team. The fact that mesmers were used doesn’t make their use a good idea. I should have been more clear.

No need for screenshots when you have the actual VoD’s. One team made it to the finals on NA and that team gave the Abjured a really good fight with a mesmer I’ve never heard of.

Obviously we’re digressing in this thread but I find it a bit humorous how people consistently say mesmer isn’t viable in the top tier when they’re clearly in the top GW2 tournaments week after week.

forum bug /15chars

Fay.2357:

Guess what else isn’t being used at the top tournaments? Oh, it’s mesmer as a whole..

Not true.

At the ESL weekly cup last Thursday there was at least one team using standard power shatter. I know helseth would have but he couldn’t play for some reason.

At the EU Go4 cup Sunday there were three, two of which were on the same team.

At the NA Go4 cup there were two.

lighter.2708:

i havent figure out which is better for GS kittenter for pvp

If you’re running a build that uses deceptive evasion, running energy on at least one weapon set is important. I think in some cases you can get away with not running it on both with the understanding that you’re making a huge trade-off in damage and survivability with whatever sigil you choose to equip instead.

Fay.2357:

skcamow.3527:

OP, unfortunately disruptor’s sustainment is an

BD, just to avoid confusion.

Ah yes, thanks – had them mixed up. So many useless GM traits, yo.

Good to see others playing with 0/0/6/4/4.

OP, unfortunately disruptor’s sustainment is an incredibly weak trait that pales in comparison to the other grand master offerings in the chaos line, and even some master offerings. Running CI or BI with chaotic dampening would be more useful. Even so, CI goes under utilized if you have limited interrupt sources.

I’ve also played a 0/0/6/4/4 spread for about 3 months in PvP. The trait spread is really quite versatile; you can do quite a few different things from bunker to bruiser.

Personally I play a reflect heavy bruiser support variant with celestial. It’s good enough to defeat most builds out there 1v1 and 1v2 is possible for 20-30 seconds for help to arrive (I’ve won a few 1v2’s, but bad players). The strengths are reflects, blinds, passive AoE healing and point control with focus pull. Damage is extremely deceptive due to the large potential might stacking, which is very probable in any team fight. The only glaring weakness is bunker builds/turret engis. This build, like Ross’s variant is designed to be on on point and you very much feel like you’re the anchor on point.

I’ve had a good player help me run it through the paces over the course of a couple months. We’ve tried countless rune/sigil combinations, devised numerous combos and really pushed the limits of this trait allocation. We’ve dueled some very good players and it’s performed really well. It doesn’t have a place at the highest levels of competitive play but you will win and sometimes carry many a ranked/unranked match if played correctly.

My tester plays this with CI instead of CD. Personally I can’t do without 6s phase retreats and with 28s Chaos Storms, I use them offensively 75% of the time. He also plays with blink where I play with mirror images which significantly increases DPS output while on staff.

http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNArdWlknpVtlqxTNcrNivRY6jgqT2thy4bA-TpRHwADOCAEeAABOEAAOBAHLDoe/BA

Official build thread if interested: Utility Wizard

Overall, I encourage you to continue experimenting with 0/0/6/4/4. It’s not honestly the strongest from a versatility perspective (I think 0/4/6/4/0 is even more versatile), but there is a lot of potential.

One odd thing that happened (and I believe still does) when charging mantra of recovery is it procs runes that work on heal. Semi related to the thread topic but yeah it’s bad consistency that some things work with that and some don’t.

Kazhiel.8194:

I tried your build in pvp. Felt like I was lacking damage would be my main complaint. Not a bad build but I think I might like it better with a few tweaks

I would try icy’s variant with the pirate runes. It does very respectable damage while still keeping decent sustain. He goes pistol but you could go focus instead if you want to keep the reflects.

I have a primary build I play, but when I see an engi I pretty much always assume they’re turret and switch to double ranged power shatter. The two best tips have already been mentioned. My team is usually always able to figure out how to leave the engi alone and exploit the 4v5 advantage. Sometimes it doesn’t work but it mostly does. If you’re in any kind of coordinated party (even just one other person), it’s easy to take out.

If you’re solo and want to take it, down the rocket turret quickly as it’s one of their biggest damage threats. This is fairly easy to do at range on GS. The next one in line for me would be the rifle turret but with the rocket out of the way, the fight is much easier. Typically you can kite or dodge the rifle and thumper/net from there and whittle them down in decent time. Kiting just off or even on the fringe of the point in their LoS isn’t that bad with the rocket turret gone. It can also help secure a potential decap.

One thing I have to say, love the name. Not sure about what to do with it though.

I was able to get icy’s exact build for those interested. He opens with chaos storm > phase retreat > iWarlock then switch to sw/p and get a duelist out. Skirmish from there.

The signet coupled with persisting images keeps illusions up most of the time. That extra few hits to bring them down can be troublesome especially in 1v1’s. If you leave them up though, they can overtake you pretty quickly as they hit very hard for a celestial build due to the almost 200% crit dmg. Sustain is excellent with 3x power cleanse, restorative mantras and perma regen, making good use of celestial’s healing power boost.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNAsaWl0npEtdoxRNcrNyqxYqSO9SNdUp3I7AA-TJRHwAAOFACeCAHLDoe/BA

Most of the games Fay (Pyro) played and to which he was referring were under the old system we had for a long time before they made the first big change last fall. Ironically enough that system, even with it’s flaws, has proven to be better than these past two attempts except for the horrible decay issues it had.

That aside, this thread is plagued with context issues all over the place. It’s hard to step in and comment because the landscape is so large. I’ll try to narrow it down.

Specifically, our only viable build in the top tier (I like to call this the 5% of players) is power shatter. This is a fact and has been since launch. I would go further and argue that aside from helseth, sometimes supcutie and sometimes misha, even though mesmer isn’t as much being taken at the moment doesn’t lessen the viability of power shatter in top tier PvP. It’s still a very strong and excellent build; it’s just not taken as much due to counter comping. But the very fact that it’s still heavily considered in strategy discussions makes it a viable build.

As for MtD, viability is determined not in whether it’s a strong build as much as the meta in which we reside. It’s been deemed not viable in the top tier in our current meta. By whom? Well I see Supcutie’s name being mentioned in this thread. He has tested this build. I’m unsure how extensively, but I know he’s at least given it a solid shot as I’ve spoken to him about it in the past. Maybe I’ll hit him up to respond to this thread and share his experiences in testing.

MtD pales in comparison to power shatter in the top tier in this current meta. If we were less in a celestial meta and more in a power meta I bet MtD would wreck. For those arguing MtD could be viable currently in the top tier, I think people really underestimate the coordination of these top teams to in large part counter condition heavy builds with their mass AoE cleanses.

Moving past the 5% top tier into more of the mainstream, any decently put together mesmer build can be run, MtD no exception and I believe this is the space wherein it shines.

jportell.2197:

And for those that say “countless runs this build.” Last time I faced him he wasn’t using scepter and I am pretty sure he was power based, also the guy could prolly play blindfolded while sitting on one hand.

Countless runs celestial/krait with sword/pistol and staff. It’s definitely more power based I’d say although I think his build is generally referred to as “condition clone on death”. The conditions are certainly there though with the bleeds. What he does is use the ether signet offensively 75% of the time. He literally opens with it to get two duelists out quickly. It’s very difficult to sit under two of them and he drops most opponents fast. The tankier ones take a bit more time but he eventually prevails.

I think I could count on one hand the amount of times I’ve seen him lose a 1v1 on stream and I’m with you on his raw skill. As an amazing mechanical player he makes the the signet focused build work and he does it extremely well. I however see this build as more of a very strong 1v1 skirmisher. It really doesn’t do much else in a team fight besides spread a few conditions around the point and focus targets. This is good mind you but it’s not doing most of the things mesmer is really known for or can bring to the table. On the other hand, what offsets that to some degree is the inclusion of portal, which is big deal if utilized properly.

EDIT: And there he is, haha. Looking forward to seeing your variant Countless.

DiogoSilva.7089:

skcamow.3527:

Would this in some way negate the need for the mantra mastery trait, or would that still be useful for longer fights? I could still see a use for it, but it’d be even less useful than current.

If the solo purpose of Mantra Mastery was to make you wait a few less seconds before going through the whole cumbersome process of wasting the remaining charges to recharge the whole thing anew, then that trait wouldn’t have much of a purpose in the first place. The QoL change should come in regardless of that trait. But anet could always add a small extra functionaly to MM, like, prepared mantras auto-regenerate their charges faster while out of combat. So, say, the default could be 1 charge every 10 seconds, and the trait would make it go for each 8 seconds.

Yeah that’s what I was getting at; I personally don’t see mantra mastery useful at all. The very few seconds it shaves off recharge just doesn’t feel worth it when you still have to then recharge them again when they become available.

I like the QoL change suggested, though I’m afraid we’d be left with an even more useless trait than we already have and don’t trust Anet to revamp other things based on this potential change. Even so, it’d be a good trade-off for sure.

Zarathustra.1458:

DiogoSilva.7089:

I agree that charges should regenerate after combat. That would be a massive QoL change to me, and the main reason why I dislike mantras has to do with how many unneeded button presses I have to go through after each battle to make sure I start the next one with all of them fully charged.

However, this QoL change should only apply to mantras that are already charged, of course (AKA, mantras where you have at least 1 charge left). If you had used all charges, you would need to prepare them again, no matter what. Auto-regeneration would ONLY occur if you had at least 1 charge left, and out of combat. It’s purpose would be purely for a QoL change to take away unneeded button presses out of combat, and not as an unintentional buff.

This exactly. Alternatively, let the cooldown start when you use the first mantra charge. This would have much the same effect. Neither would exactly be all that overpowered, as the primary difference would be a shorter time spent between fights waiting for cooldowns to recharge.

Would this in some way negate the need for the mantra mastery trait, or would that still be useful for longer fights? I could still see a use for it, but it’d be even less useful than current.

I scoured the thread and found three examples where a solution was actually discussed (albeit very briefly) in a constructive manner. So let’s talk more about these (underlined to highlight):

The first actual suggestion to a fix from a thief:

Leadfoot.9071:

I main thief – I think the argument against OP that since there is “no cooldown on thief weapon skills this is working as designed and /thread” is simply a strawman argument. The point OP is making is that mesmer have a GM trait that does not work effectively against a class because of the way the trait and thief class mechanics are designed. I think it’s a valid complaint and I would argue that the trait (and chill) should have some kind of impact on initiative (trait eats some, chill slows generation of).

While it sounded good on paper, someone in this next quote brought up a good point about a high initiative skill getting interrupted, burning further initiative and potentially depleting a thief’s initiative with one interrupt. That would indeed be too heavy. So pursuant to that, we have this suggestion:

NICENIKESHOE.7128:

Bojoo.7819:

That would be fine if every thief weapon would have its own initiative pool.
Right now, it would brokenly broken thieves. Lets say you interrupt 5/6 initiative skill and thief loses 10/12 initiative because power block. You do what then as a thief? Die because someone used 1 skill?

If you interrupt not thief class skill it goes on double cd, he can use other skill who are not on cd, he can wep swap and still try to do something.

As a thief you would be left with nothing. Cant use most of skills because no initiative. Weapon swap and then what, AA? It’s stupid and it wouldn’t work.

Also, guess what? Initiative is not a cooldown. It’s a pool.

Hence I think interrupt causes a 5 seconds CD on thief skill is more reasonable than burning initiative. This makes thieves suffer the same consequences as other classes, no more, no less. But apparently some thieves can’t survive when one or two skills are disabled for 5 seconds, their defensive responses and play on words are hilarious to watch tbh. I can go into chill but our focus is on power block.

This is not unreasonable to me. Even if maybe a 3 second CD?

And finally, the interrupt/token idea:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

StickerHappy.8052:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

StickerHappy.8052:

I told you, forum thieves are incapable of constructive talks.
Appeals for talks are considered as threats to their class

Well, this subject only targets thieves by circumventing the normal operation of their class skills for the sake of one trait’s perceived inconsistency, so it is a threat to some people.

Add that to the fact that thieves get hit with the nerf stick constantly and you better be prepared to defend anything that cripples them further.

This is hardly a constructive topic, the main point of the whole thing is “I’m confused as to why a class that has its skills not centered around cooldowns don’t get a cooldown Specifically for my classes trait when I interrupt them. The trait is broken because thief (and only thief) weapon skills don’t get a cooldown introduced when I interrupt them, fix it. (even though the utility skills -and- healing skill does)”

Exactly the point. Then why dont you guys suggest another alternative? Since you guys are right, you dont have cds, then cant you suggest any other way for this trait then?

Just have power block initiate a short daze on a small internal cooldown (15-25) when interrupted (consideration given to the animation length of interrupts such as cc)

Then everyone gets the (cooldown) thing without having to rewire stuff.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

StickerHappy.8052:

Thank you azure. How long is the daze tho?

No idea. As long as it doesn’t allow stunlocking, it’s fine. I’m partial to ChaosAngel’s idea.

Interrupts can place a token on your opponents bar (like Sigil of Doom) that expires in 5-10 or so seconds, and causes a [x] daze if a skill is used while the token is applied.

I don’t need muscle memory getting in the way of my rotations because suddenly my shadow shot has a CD. If there’s a daze, I can accept that since I can react to that more reliably.

This is also a nice way to introduce counterplay to the interrupt and not flat out burn initiative or inflict a daze. What do you all think of these ideas? Do you have others?

MailMail.6534:

Stream more or RIOT.

Of late, he’s been streaming quite a bit. I don’t see YOU on there tho :P

At the very least I would go with #2 with a twist – the mesmer laying down the curtain always gets the benefit of the full duration of swiftness, only the first time they pass through it, no matter how much they had before. I think that’s more than fair. It still prevents class stacking to a large degree but provides the mesmer with a bit more swiftness uptime.

Rome.7124:

thanks for the replies, it’s disappointing to hear Revenant is being created as a super class. Given Anet’s track record they probably will nerf it later. This leaves Mesmers players hoping to move on to a class in a even worst spot because no such OP class in Revenant will stay this way forever.

I guess we can still hope the Mesmer specialization and shield skills will bring some changes to the class, but I am not optimistic that Anet will do the right thing for Mesmers.

Keep in mind there were some interesting bugs discovered that doesn’t help the overpowered perception. I’m sure more will be discovered in future tests.

The notion of an energy bar is going to be very tricky to balance with the skills. I can’t see some of the more powerful skills like banish enchantment going live in it’s current form. I’m inclined to think Anet isn’t completely blind to how strong it is either.

Ultimately it’s absolutely not in their best interest to alienate all the other professions by introducing a stronger one. While that’s true and logical, hopefully Anet sees it.

Sebrent.3625:

@Anyone: If someone can tell me where I can find the numbers for combining Weapon Strength and Power to get the total damage for each skill in-game. I’d appreciate it. Then I can just generate these numbers myself and share them. Currently I only see base damage and a coefficient for power on the wiki, with some of them noting that the base damage is from a specific weapon strength.

Frifox has most of this data captured and regularly updated. Here’s a recent post of his, check out the various links in his signature.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Mesmer-illusions-Ranger-Runes/first#post4916332

In addition, I think he’s analyzed the dps comparison between power and condi to the point that condi is preferred if soloing dungeons when taking staff + IE. Power still rules by a long shot when a party is taken into account.

Any update coming to reflect all the various port changes?

Sebrent.3625:

It was also brought to my attention that Confusion + Taunt could be a very mean combo in PvP

• Apply Confusion
• Taunt
• Target is forced to auto-attack you for duration of the taunt.

Not only confusion, but torment too as taunt forces them to move. Also the new slow condition will be excellent for interrupt mesmers, making it much easier to see animations and interrupt skills.

Good ideas and wouldn’t be out of the realm of possibility if not for the fact that literally only mesmers could use them.

Take rune of the trapper for example. I was surprised they were introduced due to the limited cross profession use (only ranger/thief). This would be difficult, but if there was a way to make it work for generic AI you might be on to something. That way necromancers (minions), guardians (spirit weapons), engineers (turrets), and to some degree rangers (spirits) could all potentially use it. I wouldn’t include AI spawned from elites.

The official word:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/hot/Increased-Bleeding-Stacks/first

From the sounds of it, more than just bleeding stacked higher than 25 (confusion reported). Someone said they saw north of 60 bleed stacks.

Wile.5024:

skcamow.3527:

I will say this – the trait allocation here is almost the exact build icy has been running for a few months now and what I believe is one of the strongest mesmer PvP builds I’ve seen in a long time.

What’s this build, do you have a link?

I was referring to the OP’s trait spread, at least from the allocation into the various lines (dueling, chaos and inspiration).

I’ll try to get icy’s exact build if that’s what you were after, but I think the take away is this trait spread provides extremely flexible and effective play with various weapons, traits, and utilities.

I will say this – the trait allocation here is almost the exact build icy has been running for a few months now and what I believe is one of the strongest mesmer PvP builds I’ve seen in a long time. Some notable differences are that icy runs the iduelist, duelist’s discipline, illusionary defense and persisting images, treating it like more of a phantasm build. That means DE goes away but I would suggest to at least try it. The build has been extensively tested and I knew it was just a matter of time before it would see the light of day on the forums. One other thing. The build has so much built in sustain that I’ve wondered if going 2 in domination would be better for empowered illusions. Could be something to experiment with.

The flexibility of the traits allows for maximum reflect mitigation or more ranged offense as stated with the iDuelist. The utilities are equally flexible to take whatever is needed for the comp you’re facing. The same can be said of the runes. I can’t recall what icy runs for those but I think they were more offensive in nature. I’m sure water works fine, again just depends on the role you want to play in the match.

Overall, well done on the build. It’s my opinion that you definitely have a winner.

Curunen.8729:

On another note, I can’t wait till we get slow and taunt, along with other new stuff, because I think this build could be tweaked to provide unparalleled control. I believe it will only get stronger come HoT (or at least a variant of it).

Maybe it might also work better in chronomancer spec rather than mesmer, depending on the specifics, who knows.

Looking forward anyway.

It remains to be seen how we’ll receive the slow condition and taunt cc. Would be great if we got some of them as part of the original mesmer tool set. Probably goes without saying that we’ll get at least slow with the new chronomancer specialization. There will be many different avenues of exploration for sure with this build and many others. Slow is going to be great for more reliable interrupts, leading to more CI immobs, etc.

Curunen.8729:

Has anyone tried Antitoxin Runes + Sweet Bean Buns with this yet?

Expensive food, but the only analogue to Melandru + Lemongrass for condition builds rather than power builds.

I can’t justify the ~50s for that food sadly.

I continue to be amazed at the nourishment options that become available. This one seems quite OP but yeah I’d use it if not so expensive. As for Antitoxin runes, I think they’re decent and use them on another WvW roaming build. Not sure about it though on this build as it gimps damage by a fair amount. Maybe you could give up the condi clear slot though for mantra of distraction (trusting mender’s purity to save you).

On that very note, I’m actually working on a variant I may post here in the coming days to see what you all think. Thanks for all the discussion thus far, it’s been interesting reading the various ideas.

WitchKing.5317:

Also gonna suggest skcamow for general mesmer stuff and theorycrafting (should make this a catagory to).

If ya don’t mind that is, skcamow

Not at all, I’m always available to answer questions and the general section definitely fits me best.

Forum bug /blah

@chaos, a suggestion – anyone repping OMFG with a teacher rank or higher are able to answer questions or direct to someone specific. Obviously this idea extends beyond the guild but thought it worth mentioning.

Fay.2735:

Chaos Archangel.5071:

I apologize for my insolence. =P UPDATED

(And Ry I know you do gvg too but… I paid a lot for these /crickets. =[ )

You’ve been forgiven this one time

Nice to see your smiling face around these parts again :]

@Chaos, just a suggestion – might be a good idea to compile the clone generation ideas from this thread and the one I linked above and place them in the OP for a concise list.

Kadj.6725:

I did ask for critique, but I do feel like the posts above are saying “just play the meta” without evaluating what the build does.

Not at all, re-read my first reply.

Kadj.6725:

This isn’t a question of a single trait; this is a spread that I feel actually targets the weakness of the meta itself

It doesn’t target a weakness in the meta that standard shatter already has covered. There may be extra boon removal (vs standard shatter) via diversion/imbued diversion/shattered concentration but like I said it needs tested.

As for your questions:

-Is stability so nerfed that all the things I’ve put in this spread are overkill?
-Is this build a powerful counter to boon spam and stability in both crowds and 1v1?

Not overkill at all. It’s a decent trait spread that counters boon spam decently.

Kadj.6725:

-What am I not seeing that I am really losing when dropping BD+CI?

I wasn’t suggesting you play CI, but you do lose the immob pressure from interrupts that this build won’t provide. In addition, you take a GM trait that is for the most part useless in 1v1’s versus CI, which is amazing in 1v1’s. Your impact with this build is felt almost entirely in team fights.

Kadj.6725:

-Do those other builds handle turret/bunker engineers, cele elementalists, and thieves measurably and substantially better than this? (I’m not saying this handles them well either, but I identify those as my problem targets regardless of build.)

4/4/6/0/0 will likely handle those better than this build, again because you have a GM trait that works against multiple targets, not 1v1.

Sebrent.3625:

I get the impression you’re talking about on sPvP, but, if you’re not, I could see x/x/6/x/6 with [Chaotic Interruption] and [Imbued Diversion] being good for setting up kills in WvW; especially if used with weapons that summon their clone and/or phantasm next to your target as Dazing AND Immobilizing a group of players could but just what’s needed for them to get gibbed by your side.

Indeed, that’s quite fun in WvW: Chillruption xD

Gonna pull out the best discussion on this subject I’ve ever seen on these forums:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Mesmer-Trait-Deceptive-Evasion-swap

There were a lot of solid ideas posted in that thread, the best of which is to make deceptive evasion default with a five second ICD.

Same question yeah, will the MMR from the off season be carried forward into this next test season or does it reset with the ladder?

Kadj.6725:

4/4/0/0/6 sword/focus+GS, looks like classic shatter but with Imbued Diversion as the largest change(and Halting Strike as a lesser change)

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNAR8dlknpRtlpxGNcrNipxg60OrNSGQDlslxB-TZhFwAAOIAOuAAw2fIxTAYaZAA.

If there was an even remotely viable build using Imbued Diversion, it would be this trait spread you have and I believe should be played like shatter with an eye for specific AoE interrupts with MoD. I like GS and Sw/F, but staff also works well for double ranged. I’ve tinkered a bit with 0/4/4/0/6 for some pretty impressive might stacking, but the kicker that drives me back to domination are those luscious halting strikes and shattered concentration. I actually haven’t tested this, but I wonder if imbued diversion works with shattered concentration in an AoE fashion; I would think it should.

I do a couple things slightly differently depending on the map and opposing comp, sometimes grabbing signet of illusions for more shatters. This actually helps to make up for on demand distortion you lose with standard shatter, and gives you more access to diversion. As for Melandru, it’s really gimping your damage. I understand playing defensively as you learn, but I recommend a more offensive option such as hoelbrak (decent transition from melandru), pack, or strength and take illusionary invigoration for shatter resets to provide a bit more defense. You still get might from your shatters so having a might boosting rune isn’t a bad play. Energy sigils are good.

All that said, imbued diversion is weak for a GM trait given Anet’s decision to make MoD dazes AoE. With that precedent, imbued diversion needs to be moved t the master slot or made default. Overall standard shatter using IP is indeed much better, being that you have to make up for quite a bit you lose from it by playing this build. I do think though a build using imbued diversion can be effective if played correctly (especially courtyard).

Sadrien.3470:

i noticed this when i got 300 damage burning on my condi specced ranger,
not like its condi memser that needs a buff though

- condi mesmer 15 stacks of torment and 10+ stacks of confusion permanently in wvw

Yeah it’s been live since Monday’s patch but they forgot to include it in the notes.

Our condition builds just got a little buff. Long time coming:

“Updated condition damage. Previously, a condition that had a fractional remainder of time after it dealt damage would not inflict the rest of its damage. For example, a 1.5-second burn would deal 1 second of burning damage, then fail to inflict the remaining 0.5 seconds of burning. Conditions will now deal this fractional damage either at the beginning or end of their duration, depending on when the next damage pulse would occur and their remaining duration”

Source: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/updates/Game-Update-Notes-March-16-2015/4899333

I agree it needs time to play out a bit (I don’t play ranger or necro). Players and teams need to make better use of the new cc stack strip change in addition to ripping. Something like that should work decent on a lich.

Fay.2357:

Edit: And major balance updates? Don’t make me laugh. Mesmer hasn’t gotten anything major in years. The only notable positive change in the past several years was maim getting buffed to the point that it can actually be used now, that’s it.

By balance updates I meant the feature pack updates like runes and sigils that were modified enough to warrant another look at all existing builds even remotely viable.

Don’t really agree with you on the rest, c’est la vie.

jportell.2197:

Pyro’s post about the current state of mesmer is pretty accurate. The game has been out for so long that almost every build has been tested in most levels of PvP. Pretty much at the top end everything except shatter is found wanting in some respect.

Agreed, most builds are tried but I would argue if they’re tested. Trying it for a couple hours doesn’t count no matter how good one is. It can take a week or longer playing a build to really get it down and realize its true effectiveness in the hands of a good player. This is only the first step. Next you take that build and theorize how it could work in a team comp. I think that’s the part missing. Players try a build for a couple hours, deem it not viable and throw it in the pile.

I’m not discounting the ability of a player detecting a good or bad build. That first filter must be there. I however think builds are given up on too quickly without being fully explored. So yes, 95% of builds have been tried but not fully explored in a team comp. I’d love for someone to tell me otherwise but doubt anyone will be able to.

On top of all this, each major balance update requires additional scrutiny on builds previously panned. I don’t doubt that the meta builds are obviously looked at, but likely not many others where some possibilities could certainly exist.

What we’re left with is mesmer being analyzed only with shatter in mind instead of fully exploring (not just trying) other possibilities. This is speaking only about the top tier. In anything but that we have really good build diversity in spite of the DE issue (which I agree with) constantly raised on the forums.

I’ll qualify all this with a dose of reality. I believe there is some truth to my comments but not saying a whole new meta would be discovered. I do however think there’s a decent chance of at least one viable build being discovered.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Without reworking anything, what minor adjustments would you make to any of our weapons/utilities/traits to make them more viable?

With everything equal as it is now, assuming no balance changes across any other classes, mesmers need better sustain options to remain competitive at the top tier in glassy comps. Of course that then trickles down to all skill/MMR levels. I think Anet tried to accomplish this with the ether signet. I think a tweak there or something similar could change things quite a bit. Now I’ll go on my own little rant.

We pigeon hole ourselves way too much on “the most viable build to play”. I’m a firm believer that we do not lack build diversity. Aside from the horrid GM traits introduced, most of our traits are useful and provide a bevy of good builds to run with solo or with teams. It just takes some creativity and willingness to experiment with not only a new build idea, but new comps to play around those ideas.

The time simply has not been spent exploring all the options, and the time spent has to occur all over again whenever major balance is shifted. In no way do I discount the time top teams have spent trying to find the best builds and comps, but it’s nearly impossible with the low tournament player base we have to fully explore all possible builds to the level that’s needed in order to find viability.

Playing a build for a few hours or even a few days doesn’t count when giving a build a viable or not viable judgement. Play a build for a few weeks, master it. If it has promise, try to put a team comp together around it or augment it with others. THEN you have another few weeks to determine if that single build meshes with four other players.

It’s daunting to think about this for every possible mesmer build and any other class for that matter. If we had triple the amount of players in this game I guarantee we’d see some very interesting, none traditional, seemingly odd builds played at higher levels.

Leadfoot.9071:

I main thief – I think the argument against OP that since there is “no cooldown on thief weapon skills this is working as designed and /thread” is simply a strawman argument. The point OP is making is that mesmer have a GM trait that does not work effectively against a class because of the way the trait and thief class mechanics are designed. I think it’s a valid complaint and I would argue that the trait (and chill) should have some kind of impact on initiative (trait eats some, chill slows generation of).

This is a great suggestion and I know I’ve seen this before in previous discussions in the mesmer forums. At the very least they could implement some additional initiative burn when interrupted. That would seem like a good first step, and may be enough to make the trait worthwhile.

Fay.2357:

skcamow.3527:

• Phantasmal Mage buff.

Look at me with a straight face and tell me that you actually believe the iMage buffs were impactful in any way and made the iMage anything other than still trash occupying the 5 slot on torch.

I wouldn’t be able to look at you and with a straight face and believe this one. I’d honestly probably burst out laughing. But still, it was a decent (if not unmentionable) buff.

The ones you say were tarnished by a mediocre enhancement; while I agree with you, they were decent buffs nonetheless.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Dude, scepter 2 torment was a MASSIVE buff to condi builds, despite how awkward the weapon is. And torment on auto is neat. Not what I wanted and not addressing the main issue, but still a good buff.

Ah yes, one of the biggest ones I forgot. We’ve definitely received some nice buffs in the midst of the mess.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

I couldn’t think of anything beyond Bountiful/Chaotic.

Bah. Besides those already mentioned, these were all decent to good buffs we’ve received since the beginning:

• All mantras, most notably pain and distraction AoE.
• Spatial Surge line AoE (up to 3).
• Confusing Images line AoE (up to 5).
• Mind Stab (GS) AoE buff.
• Triumphant Distortion.
• Scepter torment.
• Halting Strike.
• Confounding Suggestions.
• Phantasmal Mage buff.

There are probably more and I didn’t include bug “fixes”. I listed only the ones that had a decent to significant impact on builds that are commonly used. I left many out that are only fringe useful or trash.

Of course we had numerous nerfs to go along with those buffs and some very annoying bugs we had to long endure before fixed. It’s interesting to see though how people summarily dismiss the good we’ve received and instead rally together in an aura of negativity and commiseration, claiming we’ve received nothing.

Fay.2357:

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Fay.2357:

At any rate, I don’t really see this as being a significant change from the mesmer point of view. The major difference will be that you won’t be able to strip/steal long duration stab from some of the transforms, but that’s not a huge change, just means that moa will become a bit more important vs transforms, and we’ll have even less reasons (if that’s even possible) to take arcane thievery or mimic.

Well Diversion will now strip stab even without shattered concentration. 3-clone diversion shatters will be a bit more important in any Mesmer build.

Doing that will still be a waste though; no dazzling procs is a pretty significant change. You’ll still want the boon strip and then followthrough.

In 1v1’s absolutely, better to strip or wait it out versus wasting the 3 chain daze just to get rid of stab. In team fights though, the random chaos storm/MoD/Imbued Diversion (yeah right) AoE procs are going to be really nice to whittle stacks down.

Carighan.6758:

Fay.2357:

The crying this would generate would dwarf everything else we’ve previously seen. It would get removed in a week, and the devs would apologize to everyone for accidentally giving mesmers something interesting.

I can do better! A weapon which’s auto-attack tags a target so that their next auto-attack hits a friendly target (their friend) in range instead of the intended target.

In other words instead of dealing damage myself, as long as I attack someone I’ll cause them to attack their teammates.

RIP Wandering Eye

OP, I’d say keep taking using it if you’re having that much success. I don’t take it myself due to the lack of team coordination when solo.

Most mesmers taking portal probably don’t communicate they have it in the beginning of matches. The fact you do though is going to achieve a better use of it.

The solo uses I’ve seen always involve the obvious stomps, escapes and such but most commonly I see it used to push far at the start of a match (not even necessarily to cap), dropping portal just off the point and helping back mid. Port after mid fight to decap or cap far. This is a great strategic opener but unfortunately it’s one of the only things you can really plan on when solo. The rest of the fight you’re using it randomly between the long CD’s.