Guild Wars 2

They should add a trait that fixes all current bugs. Make it a grandmaster. I don’t care which line, I’d take it.

One would hope objectivity would reign in situations like this, but more than likely ppl who main a specific class are just going to go in and vote for their own class. Fail idea IMO.

Illusionary Riposte recharge was bugged for a long time when taking both traits (blade training/iCelerity), but it was fixed in the last patch. Tool-tips are still messed up, though.

^^^
Agreed, everyone always says scepter is the better ranged choice for damage, but my personal tests always showed that in 600 boon share/acquisition range, GS and scepter damage were about even, a very negligible difference. The advantage at that point becomes the phantasm issue in that I think the consensus is the fact that the iBerserker is an inferior phantasm when compared to the iSwordsman you get when running sc/sw, even with the annoying phantasm overwrite.

I don’t know about 13 minutes worth, but somehow watching people fly off cliffs and bridges to their death never gets old.

A couple thoughts.

• Imbued Diversion: I personally thing moving it to the master tree is too “whack-a-mole”. While it could work, I think they should buff it more carefully, such as introduce a decreased recharge on Diversion for however many opponents are interrupted – call it 5% per. So if you interrupted the max 5 opponents (which pretty much never happens), the minimum recharge you could get would be about 26s. An easier alternative to this would be a global Diversion recharge (say 15 or 20%) added to Imbued Diversion.

• Cry of Frustration: I noticed talk of this in the thread and thought I’d note that condition/confusion duration doesn’t appear to even apply to this skill, which is lame (and I believe a bug). I’ll be pursuing this in the bug forum.

• Scepter AA: awhile back there were some decent suggestions brought up in the 12/10 balance patch thread. It’s important IMO that no damaging conditions should accompany ether blast. This isn’t to say maybe a low duration soft cc couldn’t be applied. Here are a couple excerpts – I’m interested to hear any thoughts on this and especially keeping in mind Anet’s desire for scepter to be more of a support type weapon:
  Scepter AA #1
  Scepter AA #2

If Anet does nothing with scepter AA, at the very least I think they should make it 1200 range like guardian’s scepter AA.

Way back when, I requested you make more videos because you do a great job …
Alissah please make more videos

So I’m happy to see you did, and this one does not disappoint! Subscribed, great job!
Nice playing. EotM golf looks to be much fun. I lollered many times.

Maybe selan can use the same tactics she used to get the recent illusion issue fixed.

It’s been a long time since we’ve seen a dev response on this topic.

An update to acknowledge this is still being actively investigated would be greatly appreciated by the mesmer community.

OP, just FYI on this one:

Lishtenbird.2814:

19. Illusionists Celerity trait. (reported by Asuka Shikinami, Wiki)

• For Illusionary Counter: reduces cooldown by 1s upon block and 0s upon Counterspell.
• For Illusionary Riposte: does not reduce cooldown upon block or after Counter Blade.

This information is incorrect. This thread here is the most current information on this topic and goes a bit further into detail about recharge issues with malicious sorcery. The last post in that thread details the current remaining bugs that need fixing.

Now that this thread is getting more attention (gratz btw), I’m doing some updated testing on condition duration issues which I’ll eventually report.

Check out this thread discussing shatter builds with torch: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Cleansing-Conflagration-Shatter

It could apply to your staff-sw/t setup.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Traiting torch over shattered concentration? Not worth it IMO. Torch is fine in a shatter build and with the bit of power damage Pestige does can lead to some wicked shatters but doesnt need to be traited. Neither the cooldown or condi removal is worth losing out on the best boonstripping in the game, Shattered Concentration makes you much more valuable than a traited torch would.

I think this kinda depends on the format. For PvP I agree fully but for WvW I might find more value by traiting the torch. I would definitely play with both to see the difference.

Torch shatter builds can be effective and quite devious due to the stealth and surprising prestige burst out of stealth. Vash is one of the better players I’ve seen to use Torch/shatter. Here is a video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3fUhFuUP-E

There are a few more on his youtube channel you can browse through. He provides helpful hints here and there on using stealth to your advantage in a shatter spec.

Supcutie.2538:

snip

Thanks for the detailed response, much appreciated. You’ve given me a lot to think about on this topic. I hope the devs see and contemplate the various points you made.

I’m curious of a couple more things:

• For each of the roles you specified (PU Shatter, PU condi, regular shatter, confounding shatter, mantra shatter, phantasm, gs/staff gs/s-f gs/s-t, gs/staff, lockdown, clone death, signets, bunker/bruiser, etc), did you play them for a few hours, a few matches, or for extended periods to really flesh them out? From personal experience, learning a new build/style can take time to get comfortable with where you’re reacting naturally instead of thinking.

• What kind of bunker, lockdown, and signet build did you guys try? I think the others you mentioned go without saying but the three I mentioned there can go a couple different ways.

Is there an iWarden hotfix in the works?

Allie Murdock.8152:

We have a hotfix for this coming. Keep an eye on on Mark’s post for news!

Excellent! Thanks Allie (and Grouch)!
btw, welcome back Allie

I’m guessing he’s using IP versus ID.

Josh Davis.6015:

The team is investigating. Thanks for the reports!

Thanks for the response Grouch. Looking forward to a report soon.

Pyroatheist.9031:

Qaelyn.7612:

Sorry I was thinking of the more recent Chaos Storm bug where multiple dazes were proc’cing. They did not fix that quickly.

Ah yes, the bug known as ‘the only thing keeping Mesmer semi-viable in high level team play’. Yeah, they did fix that one eventually.

I even wonder if the Chaos Storm bomb bug would make mesmer viable in high end team play, but I digress …

I have registered a plea to Grouch (Josh Davis). We’ll see what happens. Hoping we see a dev response soon.

Pyroatheist.9031:

Just as an FYI, we used to have a stickied bug report thread, but it was removed a while back because they apparently want all bug reports to go to the bug subforum.

Yep, and pyro maintained such a bug list before Anet stated they would essentially ignore bug reports in anything but the bug forum (source here). So while I admire the effort, I wouldn’t want this to go unnoticed. Maybe create a fresh thread we can all get behind in the bug forum?

Here’s the list pyro maintained. Many of those bugs were fixed but a few are still lingering:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Bug-List-Bugged-Skills-and-Traits/first

OP – understand that melee is preferable at this present time, especially in dungeons. There, the best is to run sw/sw-sw/f or sw/p if no reflects, via builds linked by Teloran.

You mentioned GS – that’s actually a much less desirable weapon in dungeons, but good in open world PvE.

If you’re set against playing melee in favor of a ranged solution in dungeons, scepter is generally regarded as better than GS, even taking into account the issue of the scepter clone overwriting a phantasm. That said, scepter is something I’d personally never run because of it’s inferiority to melee. The DPS loss is fairly significant, but it’s by no means horrible.

Much of the above is specific to dungeon groups asking for experience or zerker. If you see those, that’s where you’re going to be expected to run the meta, which is full melee. If you enter one of those groups with a GS or even a scepter, you’ll likely be questioned or don’t be surprise if kicked.

In any other PUG, keep these things in mind but there is more build flexibility there. You always want do as much damage as possible even if you don’t run a meta build; pull your weight, etc.

As for open world PvE, when you’re talking about power builds it just doesn’t matter enough to nitpick too much. So really, run what you want there – don’t feel forced to run anything specific in that format, but try to steer clear of condition builds.

Most folks loyal to the dungeon meta would say that if range is necessary, scepter is preferred over GS due to increase DPS. To that end, I’ve seen full zerker builds running scepter/sword and sword/focus (pistol if no reflects required) that perform decently. Something like 10/20/0/25/15.

CI is my favorite trait and has been since I devised chillruption. At any one time I’m theory-crafting 2-3 builds and can’t seem to get away from it. I had a build called chaotic conditions using CI but ended up abandoned using CI there because I couldn’t make it effective enough to warrant the 30 point cost. The build still works well without it.

So in the past 6 weeks or so (with a 3 week game break) I’ve been playing a 0/20/30/20/0 condition build which I’ve been gathering footage for. There is moderate lockdown and fully exploits using CI in a condition build. I’m planning to post it sometime in the next week.

Other than that I agree with everything you said. I wish Anet would massage the trait a bit to stagger the condition application, but on the whole I’ve enjoyed playing with this trait for a long time in various builds.

Keep in mind you were fighting a likely full glass thief and you had 11 vuln stacks on him as well.

Pyroatheist.9031:

skcamow.3527:

Someone please validate, but from what I can tell, the iWarden attacks immediately every time upon spawn. Good so far – still testing.

Take it through a fractal run with the harpies.

Yeah haven’t done that yet. Have you noticed any other behavior difference? Seems better to me but that could be I haven’t had enough time with it. Can’t get into WvW to attack structures but it’s attacking PvE structures as expected so far.

The biggest change I’ve noticed is that with a kiting opponent, it doesn’t chase it anymore upon spawn. It starts attacking immediately like it used to. Before it would almost always run to a kiting opponent before initial attack.

EDIT: Wow, nevermind! Just had my first dufus moment. Still broke, please fix.

Someone please validate, but from what I can tell, the iWarden attacks immediately every time upon spawn. Good so far – still testing.

Good job Natsu – It’s pretty easy to see how powerful the build is, especially in situations where opponents destroy the clones. I noticed vuln stacks stay pretty consistent on 10 due to the interrupts and WoC attacks. That is definitely a solid source of damage and power burst is impressive in a condi spec. You mentioned the warrior, love it – crying his eyes out getting hammered by your 25 vuln stack onslaught from that wonderful endless daze chain from Chaos Storm.

Perplexity runes make the build borderline OP if it isn’t already. The confusion pressure on top of everything else is just overwhelming.

I like the ether signet addition, definitely a plus IMO. This especially in a stealth heavy build where you can regenerate not only from PU, but also from the signet. Oh, and nice move positioning yourself to destroy a clone on your opponent with phase retreat.

Ok, so it appears that Helseth, Sensotix and possibly Supcutie have all appeared to abandon mesmer in higher end tPvP play:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/sPvP-Helseth-Sensotix-Quit-Mesmer

I see these headlines and of course it’s discouraging, as was the general nature of this thread regarding mesmer viability in tPvP. At the moment there isn’t a single mesmer I’m aware of that plays at that level and that just sux.

Questions I have:

• For roles that are common across more than one class (boon strip/burst/bunker/support, etc), is mesmer really the worst choice?
• For roles unique to mesmer (lockdown/control, utility-portal/illusion of life, should I even say PU??? etc), is taking another profession really more beneficial than utilizing what the mesmer has to offer in these areas?

Now I’m sure a ton of experimentation has been done on lots of builds by these fellows over the past months. All I hear is that “mesmer isn’t viable” and I’d love to see more information, especially from these people, on why various builds or roles don’t work.

Have we really come to the end of mesmer viability in this current meta? Has every single mesmer build possibility been explored for high end play and we’re down to this, or do you think we’re just giving up, laying down and succumbing to perceived reality?

Me being an eternal optimist, I have to believe there are builds/roles that mesmer can play that just haven’t been explored yet. I’m sure I’ll be told I’m wrong. What do you all think?

StickerHappy.8052:

Name: Elegant Ascendant
Server: Storm Bluff Isle

Invite sent

Welcome home, Chaos.

You’re right, thanks for pointing that out.

So Anet, two more bugs still here:

1. Illusionary Counter block does not reduce recharge of the skill if using malicious sorcery.
2. Illusionary Counter tool tip.

And other patch notes just posted:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/Feature-Build-Balance-Preview

Qaelyn.7612:

Beware that unless it’s been fixed in a recent patch, Malicious Sorcery and Illusionists Celerity do not stack for the #2 block. You will only get an 8s CD.

It was stealth fixed in the last patch. Updated my OP in the bug forum earlier today actually. dat beautiful 6s CD …
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/support/bugs/Mesmer-Illusionary-Counter-recharge

Pyroatheist.9031:

skcamow.3527:

I’m curious why you took compounding power over precise wrack. Have you noticed a dps difference?

The numbers have been crunched previously, and I’m fairly certain that compounding power gives a larger damage increase under most situations. In this particular build, since damage multipliers are multiplicatively added together, compounding power is definitely the best choice.

This?
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Shatter-Blds-Prec-Wrack-or-Comp-Power-Trait

Looks pretty close overall but yeah, like the OP said there, math doesn’t lie.

I’m curious why you took compounding power over precise wrack. Have you noticed a dps difference?

Just FYI for those that haven’t noticed, this bug was stealth fixed with the last patch. Both Illusionary Counter and Illusionary Riposte have proper recharges when Illusionists Celerity or weapon specific recharge are taken alone, and when taken together. The tool tip is incorrect for Illusionary Counter when both IC and Malicious Sorcery are taken together (showing 8s), but the tool tip is correct for Illusionary Riposte when taken with IC.

Thank you Anet! Just fix the Illusionary Counter tool tip now and we’re good.

Gods Knight.4936:

Pyroatheist.9031:

I have yet to find a counter to this build. If anyone manages to find one, please tell me, because this build is a massive pita to encounter when I’m not the one running it.

Update

I built and engineer that roflstomps anyone 1v1 including and especially this and any mesmer build.

I sense a duel coming …

Looks decent for a group build. Since imbued diversion is the bread and butter in this build, I would do whatever possible to lower shatter recharges to make that F3 available again ASAP. This means taking either illusionary invigoration or signet of illusions (or both).

You’ve probably seen my build chillruption. It’s basically the same idea but introduces much more cc potential in taking chaotic interruption. You really don’t lose much by taking away GS training and you get that much more cc – not only from imbued diversion but also chaotic interruption procs from illusionary wave, chaos storm and imbued diversion. Couple all that with illusionary invigoration and/or signet of illusions and you have a stronger build (IMO).

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Mantra heals.. regen.. signet of the Ether.. ideas forming! Zealot is Power/Prec/Healing?

Makes me smile, I have been burning wood on this for a couple weeks. I have a build theory-crafted and looks awesome (to me anyway). Huge, let me say, HUGE possibilities here (I’m not using mantra heals though).

EDIT: Also not using the new stat types, though they look interesting. Keeper/Zealot are the same thing I believe.

Good stuff – very, very similar to my paladin 2.0 “might master”. It was recently updated to use sw/sw to be more “meta friendly” instead of GS but GS still works just fine. The build was never intended for anything but PvE/Dungeons, but with your work here I’m kinda curious about it.

I can definitely attest to the boon acquisition, though it’s primarily might (and lots of it). Trait distribution is essentially the same, though one major difference is that I take vigorous revelation and confusing cry for the vigor/retal. Hence there is a bit of a shatter spice after the phantasms get an attack off. Have you thought about going that route at all?

Might get more attention posting in the thread already opened with dev response:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/support/bugs/Phantasmal-Warden-bugs-post-patch/first

But whatever keeps this on their radar, yeah.

StickerHappy.8052:

^How’s your experience with mirror? Does it also have that delay before it pops out the frost burst?

Do you think the build would be better off as condition based build?

Mirror works well, albeit the small increase in cast time vs ether feast. I don’t honestly notice it and it doesn’t prevent or impede the proc I’m trying to get along with the heal.

I use Mirror in this way in a condition build, and you could certainly use the grenth runes in that way. I believe Ross’s build linked in this thread is a power/condition hybrid using those runes.

For runes that proc on heal like grenth, torment, altruism, etc, I use mirror instead of ether feast. If I only have one mantra in my build I’ll use the mantra heal. The 15s CD of mirror is really nice, plus you get extra projectile reflection. Due to the quicker CD and lower heal amount, you’re able to pretty much spam it when it’s available and not feel too vulnerable.

There will be a ton of theory-crafting to do with this impending change, but for sure I’ll be adding sigils of bursting to the one handed weapons in the condition builds I run (in addition to the current doom sigils).

Some others I’m thinking about are:

• Pairing sigil of doom with torment. Moar condition output.
• Pairing hydromancy with ice. If they’re changing the 30% to 100% crit chance, that could be some very nice chill output. I’m sure the ICD on these 100% sigils will be significant, but hey.
• Pairing battle with strength. “I feel strong!”
• Throwing on a sigil of purity for that xtra condi-removal.

Overall this is going to do a great service to build diversity across all classes. Excellent change.

frifox.5283:

If that is the case then Phantasmal Fury should be slotted 100% of the time when running in a party. And here I thought that I could take blade training with x/15/x/x/x builds if party provided fury for me, guess not… XD

On the other hand, if you get precision from an ranger running spotter (which most should be in a dungeon group), that would transfer, etc. Granted 150 precision isn’t huge, but isn’t bad either. So it kinda depends on who is in your party – you can switch up as needed.

Natsu Dragneel.1625:

Skcamow, as far as I could tell, was unable to fill in properly, and neither have scores/summaries/thoughts about the builds. (I assume)

Sorry to hear we didn’t have full representation. I have personally taken a break from the game for a few weeks, but before I did I let a few folks know to ping me if they needed help with the contest.

Congrats to the winner! It was mighty close this time around, great competition for some good builds. On to the next one!

Wasbunny.6531:

Roy Cronacher.1576:

~snip~
We’ll be discussing this change more internally. Most likely we will make some adjustments or look at other options such as replacing clones not triggering Debilitating Dissipation so it does not impact mesmer play as much which wasn’t our intent.

This sentence should terrify any remaining Condition Mesmers.

If the intent was to nerf the on death traits (specifically debilitating dissipation it appears) via the originally proposed DE nerf announced on the live stream, the fact they have backed off on that in favor of this solution is much better.

I interpreted Roy’s response to mean “replacing clones (via DE) not triggering …”, not necessarily any other skill which creates a clone. If in fact he meant any skill that creates a clone, we’re in trouble. So, clarification on this would be appreciated.

Also I think everyone’s question revolves around why the devs feel the need to nerf clone on death in the first place. I would really appreciate a response to why they think it is so apparently overpowered. Given your analysis there it seems pretty clear it’s only mildly OP when fighting afk’ers.

tetrodoxin.2134:

Noone with at least average knowledge about this game kills clones (melee) while fighting a condi Mesmer. Replacing (and therefore killing) clones is simply the best (maybe even the only) way to use those traits efficiently. Sure you can walk next to your clone and eat all the AoE/cleave spam to get your clone killed. Sounds like fun.

On the other hand, a good mesmer will position in such a way for cleave/AE attacks to hit their clones, or meat shield, what have you. It is fun when you can lure someone into killing them, and doesn’t necessarily mean you have to take a hit yourself. Sometimes these aren’t the easiest things to do, but is nevertheless skillful play.

Qaelyn.7612:

Just found this on a related thread in the Profession Balance forum.. FYI..

Roy Cronacher.1576:

Thanks for the feedback guys, there were some good points brought up here. This is why we wanted to discuss these future changes so that we had time to adjust to your feedback.

We’ll be discussing this change more internally. Most likely we will make some adjustments or look at other options such as replacing clones not triggering Debilitating Dissipation so it does not impact mesmer play as much which wasn’t our intent.

This should fix the glaring concerns with their original proposal, as it will allow mesmers to still use DE defensively with 3 clones out and retain our ability to properly target shatters.

Unfortunately it still leaves me incredulous at the notion of nerfing the on-death traits. If they really think it’s cheesy to blow them up with a dodge via DE, I can live with it. In return it would make sense to compensate us with a buff to on death traits since it’s pretty clear they aren’t OP.

Mesmer is fine, barring a handful of outstanding bug fixes and the one incoming nerf to deceptive evasion which needs dev attention. There is a lot of QQ lately and if you’re not looking carefully, it’s hard to see through the fact that the QQ is for very specific things, not class marring.

Shatter is still very strong, and folks have made glamour builds still work in WvW. Understand that they may not be as strong as you remember but are still more than viable. Keep in mind also many other classes have been nerfed. As Godmoney pointed out, nerfs have also come with buffs for mesmers (and other classes, ofc) in other areas so it’s not all gloom and doom. The builds listed in stickied thread are for the most part still valid despite the list not being updated in awhile, and many are updated as of the latest 12/10 balance patch.