Guild Wars 2

Vashti.8179:

Now please come back at me with all your “QQ’s” and “L2P’s” since that seems to be the only argument you can come up with.

I dont need a better argument, Im using the one the DEV used in response to all the QQs about thief in PVP. He said thieves are predictable and easy to kill because of it, all you have to do is learn their mechanics. I dunno why is this so difficult a concept for some people to comprehend. Especially people who have thief leveled up to 80. Take your QQs somewhere else, most people in the thief foruma re tired of it, and would rather have constructive threads on top than this garbage all the time.

Molch.2078:

wish.1027:

The correct way to do it is to record 30~ seconds of auto attack animation, watch it once through to make sure it doesnt lag or skip, then pick a starting point, delete everything in front of it, then find the next time that exact frame occurs, and delete everything after it, then look at the videos time length.

Then you did it wrong, too. Look at the icon of dagger 1 in both of your pictures. It is not the same.

And just to get this straight. We’re arguing about the difference between 2.06 and 2.07 seconds, yes?

And since 0.01 seconds are the smallest step your program can measure, you have to calculate a error of + – 0.01 anyway. It could be anything from 2.065 to 2.0749999 sec.

Ya, look at the #1 icon, that clearly shows that the beginning occurs after the end, and for this video to be accurate it would need at least another .05 seconds like I said in my original post about it.

My point wasnt to show the correct time and prove what it is, it was to prove others wrong, so it not being perfect is totally fine.

crouze.3078:

How i exactly meassured the time for the attack chains:

To bad that didnt work out correctly for you. As the screenshot of moviemaker I posted proves you wrong.

The correct way to do it is to record 30~ seconds of auto attack animation, watch it once through to make sure it doesnt lag or skip, then pick a starting point, delete everything in front of it, then find the next time that exact frame occurs, and delete everything after it, then look at the videos time length.

randomfightfan.4091:

stuff

Youre a bit late to the party.

JakobGW.5730:

wish.1027:

JakobGW.5730:

Before you comment that I’m a glass cannon

I found your problem, and you even acknowledge it. Youre a GC character, youre not allowed to complain when someone bursts you down in 2 seconds.

This post is a perfect example of the problem with our thief community. Thieves like this guy don’t even read. When did I ever complain about getting bursted down in 2 seconds. Never. I was simply commenting on how the thief in the video used what many posters have said in the past is a broken mechanic. You, somehow, read somewhere that I was complaining about being bursted down in 2 seconds. . . .

My bad, you were QQing because he can hide in stealth and you cant just take your lame zerker spec and down him with no effort and you have to actually try to fight him, but you cant… because he bursts you down in 2 seconds. Your post is a good example of the fake thief community, the people who say “I play thief and stealth is OP, and I know, because I am a thief and that makes what I say valid.” When clearly, this is not the case and you have no idea what you’re doing. I think the problem here is you need to L2P and quit QQing on the forums.

JakobGW.5730:

wish.1027:

How does someone even follow you on thief for 35 minutes? I can lose anyone in 10 second on sword/dagger. Seriously…

/facepalm. Again, reading comprehension. Nowhere did I ever say I was trying to lose this guy. Any thief can easily lose someone. I, unlike you apparently, like to go into WvW to fight, not run. I even mentioned that we had several fights where he was almost killed but used the BP + HS combo to reset the fight.

What possible benefit have you brought to this discussion? Shoo, go away, pest.

I, unlike you, recognize a waste of time and lack of getting kills. If I fight someone for 5 minutes and cant kill them and they cant kill me, I leave, and go find other people to fight. Because I, unlike you, like to kill people. The last thing I would do is let them stalk me for 35 minutes then record them killing me and make a giant QQ post on the forums about it.

So what have you brought to any discussion? Nothing? Shoo, go away, pest.

stof.9341:

wish.1027:

Actually, points 1-20 into precision do nothing, and the 21st point is worth 1% crit chance.

This is assuming the crit chance is rounded from precision internally and not just in the display.

I dont understand why you would think its not rounded down. Could you explain it me? Seriously. Ive been seeing a lot of posts like this about how the game doesnt drop all decimals every time it gets one, and I dont understand the reasoning behind why people would think it doesnt.

Artaz.3819:

wish.1027:

you gain 1 crit chance for every 21 points of precision.

Problem solved – you are wrong, it is 21.16 precision per crit chance at level 80. Don’t believe everything you read on the interwebz as the rounding occurs after the total calculation and not before the modification from food/traits/etc.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Precision

21 points at L80 (the amount required seems to be rounded down from the 21.16 predicted by the formula¹).

Did you see this part?
To further prove this, if we count from the beginning by 21, we get…
927 5
948 6
969 7
990 8
1011 9
1032 10
1053 11
1074 12
1095 13
1116 14
1137 15
1158 16
1179 17
1200 18
1221 19
1242 20
1263 21
1284 22
1305 23
1326 24
1347 25
1368 26
1389 27
1410 28
1431 29
1452 30
1473 31
1494 32
1515 33
1536 34
1557 35
1578 36
1599 37
1620 38
1641 39
1662 40
1683 41
1704 42
1725 43
1746 44
1767 45
1788 46
1809 47
1830 48
1851 49
1872 50
1893 51
1914 52

1914 precision to reach 52% crit chance, If we counted by 21.16 we’d need more than 1914 to reach 52% crit chance. And you can see in the screenshot I attached 1914 is indeed 52%

Prodicus.6149:

Not a major problem, but executioner is only worth a 9% damage boost, assuming you’re the only person who has a damage increase sub-50%.

Thats assuming whatever youre fighting doesnt heal itself back to full the first time it reaches 50% like any competent player in PVP would.

The rest of the posts about it not actually being 10% when something just lets you fight it from 100% > 0% are pretty cool though, I never though about it like that and how since you’re doing more damage with each swing the enemy dies faster so its actually worth less than 10%. Good posts

Doomdesire.9365:

Warriors still generally have more DPS when you factor in 100B + whirlwind + might spam + fury through banners. You can still factor in might on stealth, however that requires traits located elsewhere other than the “glass” trait lines.

I think if we’re really comparing warrior and thief PVE DPS, we should count the buffs warrior gives to the other 4 players around it as a damage increase it is directly responsible for, so that DPS should be added to the warriors DPS. Which would easily push it above the thief even if fighting a single enemy.

Molch.2078:

Thats what I am doing. The mob has so much HP, that the number of complete AA/C&D/BS-chains is much higher than the number of interrupted chains. Then I look at the skill coeficients to determine how much damage comes from BS.

2.4/(2.4 + 3.76) = 0.39 (39%) to be accurate.

I think your 39% is fine for executioner, but you have to factor in crit chance/damage for hidden killer, it’s not that simple. At no point did I see a statement from you consisting of “you need x% of your damage to come from your ‘from stealth’ attacks for hidden killer to win,” so for me, you havent really answered the question.

Anubarak.3012:

wish.1027:

I tell people if they have 2300~ power, 50%~ crit chance and 100%~ crit damage, (this is about average for a balanced build thief) they need their from stealth attacks to do 50% of their total damage to their target while using hidden killer for it to beat executioner.

You call it average I call it weak… My thief has a 70% base crit chance, with + 12% while behind a foe and >90% health

And I call you cannon fodder or PVE carebear who runs from a 1v1 when you dont get the jump on someone. But hey, thats just the difference between PVP and PVE. You cant build a GC thief in PVP and expect to survive or do much without sneaking up on people, and should your initial burst fail you have to run away to avoid dieing.

Anubarak.3012:

Give me a banner and my crit chance is about 90%… If there is a warrior I have 100% fury uptime so I reach 110% crit chance…. tell me… why do I need hidden killer?

Are you sure about that?
Theres no critical hit chance cap before 100%? And again, PVE, no one plays a GC thief in PVP and hangs out next to a warrior all the time, and if they do, those warriors certainly dont use banners.

Anubarak.3012:

@Nate: I used fraps and counted the time/ the frames of each attack

Then why is it so hard for you prove it?
Here, I’ll do it for you. As can be seen in the uploaded screenshot of movie maker, this clip is 2.07 seconds long, and starts slightly behind where it should to get an accurate time. (There should be another .05~ seconds of time for the first screen to match the last screen, but since I did this in a rush with movie maker, it proved to be difficult to line up the start and end point on exact places in the auto attack chain, and I dont care, as Im just trying to prove someone wrong, rather than prove the exact time it takes) This took me 5 minutes of effort and proves you wrong. Which just goes to show me, if you actually did this, youd have uploaded something to showcase it the first time anyone brought up that you might be wrong.

Molch.2078:

wish.1027:

I think youre looking at this entirely wrong. What you should be determining is how much of your damage needs to come from your ‘from stealth’ attacks compared to whatever youre fightings HP for hidden killer to win compared to executioner. Like, if you have X crit chance/damage/power, your backstabs need to total xx% of targets HP for hidden killer to win. Then people can determine themselves through their own play style which comes out ahead. Some people do a lot less attacking outside of CnD and BS compared to others who melee people down with autoattacks and HS’s. And I really believe thats what we should be talking about to determine which is better, not calculating some magic crit chance that has no baring on playstyle. I guarantee you, even with 68% crit chance you can make hidden killer win for damage output over executioner, just dont do much outside of CnD and BS and maybe even throw in a blinding powder or hide in shadows instead of a CnD.

So, you’re talking about PvP, while I talk about PvE? Well, gg then

But in PvE you will complete your chain 90-100% of the time.

In PVE I CnD trash mobs then BS them and they die. And theyre above 50% HP when I backstab them. So the HK wins there. For stationary PVE bosses where you just autoattack them and go afk, it should be pretty obvious executioner wins because you will be doing like no damage with your ‘from stealth’ attacks. In that situation Id say its probably best to just auto attack and use HS when you have full ini until the mob reaches 30%~ then just spam HS whenever you have enough ini to. Not because its the best damage output or anything, but because it doesnt matter and your watching anime or youtube or playing a different game while doing the fight and dont care, and those people with you will think your doing great because zomg heartseekerz op!

But I still say you should determine how much of your damage needs to come from your ‘from stealth’ attacks compared to the total amount of HP the mob has to determine which would be better in a given situation. I think my previous paragraphs exaggerated examples prove that. Personally, I tell people if they have 2300~ power, 50%~ crit chance and 100%~ crit damage, (this is about average for a balanced build thief) they need their from stealth attacks to do 50% of their total damage to their target while using hidden killer for it to beat executioner. And thats pretty much true for all variations around those numbers.

Nate.6974:

Actually you made the claim:

Seriously?
Did you completely glance over the first post where it gives times and no evidence to support those times? I made a counter argument, I was not the first person to give a time for the attack chain, I didnt even give a time for the attack chain, I simply said it was longer than what the OP proposed in response to his baseless guess as to how long the auto attack chain takes.

EDIT:
I assume this difference in time is because whoever thinks it takes 2 seconds is not counting from the moment they push 1 the first time until they can start a new 1 after the auto attack chain finishes, and are only looking at the animation for the chain and saying it starts when the animation starts and ends when the final hit connects. But whatever!

Molch.2078:

In this formula, the base crit modifier is 0.5.

1 + (.5+.81) * .44 = 1.5764
That works.

Compared to how I write it out
(1 * .56) + ((1.5 + .81) * .44) = 1.5764
hich I got from another game entirely and how Ive always seen it done, your way is easier but less noob friendly. lol

Molch.2078:

I have more than 67.5%, for my build executioner is better.

So basically what youre saying is that if you require 2 full chains of CnD > autoattack > BS to kill something, you would need 67.5% crit chance for executioner to win. But what about when the second BS kills the thing youre fighting if it crits, and doesnt kill it if it doesnt crit? What if you use CnD > BS, then dodge away and get no autoattacks in, then CnD again then BS?

I think youre looking at this entirely wrong. What you should be determining is how much of your damage needs to come from your ‘from stealth’ attacks compared to whatever youre fightings HP for hidden killer to win compared to executioner. Like, if you have X crit chance/damage/power, your backstabs need to total xx% of targets HP for hidden killer to win. Then people can determine themselves through their own play style which comes out ahead. Some people do a lot less attacking outside of CnD and BS compared to others who melee people down with autoattacks and HS’s. And I really believe thats what we should be talking about to determine which is better, not calculating some magic crit chance that has no baring on playstyle. I guarantee you, even with 68% crit chance you can make hidden killer win for damage output over executioner, just dont do much outside of CnD and BS and maybe even throw in a blinding powder or hide in shadows instead of a CnD.

Travlane.5948:

people use formulas alot on here but theres other factors i cant mention that go into it….try find me a formula that does 67.5k dmg backstab….just for instance. i won a bet on this bc a guy in my guild’s math was not adding up :p said it was possible. i said experience in the field dictates other wise.

Thats totally possible, you just need like 10,000 power!

Molch.2078:

The critical damage modifier is 1 + critdamage x critchanche.

I dont think this is correct, or I’m misunderstanding what you’re saying. It shoud be:
(1 * none-critchance) + ((1.5 + critdamage) * crit chance)
With the crit chances simply being looking at you crit chance and putting a decimal in front of it. Like 44% crit chance would be .44 and then none-crit chance would be .56 Crit damage would be converted to a decimal in the same way, 50 crit damage would be .5 112 crit damage would be 1.12, etc. So 81% crit damage and 44% crit chance would look like this:
(1 * .56) + ((1.5 + .81) * .44) = 1.5764
Using your equation it looks like this:
1 + .81 * .44 = 1.3564
or this maybe?
1 + (1.5+.81) * .44 = 2.0164
But ya, theyre all different numbers.

Molch.2078:

Since executioner kicks in at 50% hp, we treat it as a 10% damage boost.

Since I laugh at thief PVE how about we think about PVP, and how people have heals they use at 50% Hp and count executioner as like 6.6% damage instead. Or realize that the warrior is going to be hitting multiple targets a lot since it’s PVE and it auto-wins.

AvengerCap.7983:

I’m surprised no one has posted about this before, but I was swimming in SoR bl and went down near the bottom on the middle island where the Quaggans are. There was a small cave that I went through. It was a really long swim, but I finally got through it all and surfaced into an underwater cave that seemed to be placed under the garrison.

In this cave I found all the glory that Indo stolen from you all! Now you know where he hides all the stolen glory. Go and retrieve what is rightfully yours!

Secret kitten garden is beter, because it has kittens.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kM-e609w01I

Anubarak.3012:

@Wish:
1) no, It takes 2.05sec use fraps and check it out

Why dont you post a video and show us. You know, prove what you claim to be correct. The burden of proof is on you as you’re the one making the claim.

Anubarak.3012:

2) yeah noob thieves are using Hidden Killer, you are right. Thieves with an average crit chance of 61% are using executioner because it deals more dmg

I’ve done the math for hidden killer vs executioner and I can tell you the point between crit chances where one is more effective than the other based on damage done from in-stealth attacks, but please, post the math in this thread and show us all how executioner is always superior at all points in time forever.

Anubarak.3012:

4) You are right! There are so many boss fights in gw2 where you have to fight against two bosses without adds that die instantly when you look at them…. uhm… wait.. no…

So the only thing you ever fight is bosses, and only 1 mob at a time at all times, because those bosses never have adds ever. Seriously? That sounds like some super pro-level PVE ownage there. I better just take my lame self back to PVP before I look like a complete fool in this thread.

Dahkeus.8243:

wish.1027:

Dahkeus.8243:

They really need to make PvE test dummies

This would really help give better test data and allow more solid conclusions to be made.

No it wouldnt… only a fool would sit in a game and try to determine average damage by hitting stuff when the equations for damage calculations are known and would be many, many, many hours faster. Does a parser for GW2 even exist or are you going to sit there and write down every value so you can add them up and divide?

…I think you’re misunderstanding.

With the right dummies, all a player would need to do to test dps of different specs/classes would be to time how long it takes to kill a dummy, then compare kill times.

Sure, as long as the dummies take an hour or two to kill. Otherwise Im going to argue small numbers and that math is better. And at that point where you fight a dummy for an hour or two, math is faster. If they die super fast, youd have to kill them for an hour or two, then average all the times together to get an idea of your real time. Because sometimes you’ll get all crits, and sometimes you’ll get no crits, and sometimes your crits will proc on the bigger hits and not the smaller ones, etc. You’d have to do it a lot so the numbers eventually balance themselves out, then add all the times together, and divide by how many times you killed it o figure out your true time. So youre still doing math anyway even with the test dummys.

JakobGW.5730:

Before you comment that I’m a glass cannon

I found your problem, and you even acknowledge it. Youre a GC character, youre not allowed to complain when someone bursts you down in 2 seconds. How does someone even follow you on thief for 35 minutes? I can lose anyone in 10 second on sword/dagger. Seriously…

I have a few problems with what you posted.
1. I know for a fact thief dagger auto attack takes longer than 2.06 seconds. I saw it posted somewhere before when I was looking for coefficient values for dagger attacks.
2. D/D Thieves do not use executioner, they use hidden killer.
3. Why are you only posting results and no math for people to double check? This thread is invalid until you do.
4. Warrior will always win the DPS race if it ever hits more than 1 target and all things are equal.
5. What traits are you even using? There’s a huge difference in damage output if you build full glass cannon compared to doing anything else, not listing any trait setups is disingenuous. You’re going to make some poor all soldiers warrior think he has the same DPS as a full on glass cannon thief.

I dont mean to be a Debbie Downer, but you really need to be more specific and show your work.

Dahkeus.8243:

They really need to make PvE test dummies

This would really help give better test data and allow more solid conclusions to be made.

No it wouldnt… only a fool would sit in a game and try to determine average damage by hitting stuff when the equations for damage calculations are known and would be many, many, many hours faster. Does a parser for GW2 even exist or are you going to sit there and write down every value so you can add them up and divide?

Jakare.6807:

Wtf… is this thread even…

You’re talking about 2-3 stat points of precision. Just put it into perspective, this is 0.14% critical chance, it isn’t worth wasting this much time over.

Actually, points 1-20 into precision do nothing, and the 21st point is worth 1% crit chance. So you should build your character to hit an exact number that increases your crit chance to maximize your effectiveness. You’re basically saying “who cares about 200 HP” or “who cares about 20 extra power” etc when you get down on not maximizing your precision.

Jakare.6807:

I understand you want to min max to the fullest extent, but you seem to be obsessing over 3 precision

Yes, yes I am.

About eyefinity.
It’s easy to tell if someone is using eyefinity/windowed mode or blatantly cheating with a zoom hack. The position of the AC and where it is shooting will tell you everything. If the AC is not against the wall pretty close to where it’s shooting on top of, it’s a zoom hack. Want to see for yourself? Switch to windowed mode and make your window super short and long, and go stand next to a wall and see how far up you can shoot.

As people have mentioned, the norn racial elite snow leopard form is ridiculously amazing. I rerolled a guardian after spending 300+ none-returnable gold on my old one on things like a commander icon, T3 cultural armor, etc, just to get snow leopard. Dont make my mistake.

Oreoginal.1580:

What about this build? http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fUQQJARWlUgiDnGyNEf4ERli4dPMFVMjXPgIFbIA-jUyAkFIqAQyTZNBKI2GKiGreBTVmU1pgs3oIa1A-w

Once you start mixing things besides knights and cavalier together, you should drop all pieces of knights and cavalier and switch to soldiers and berserkers. It will give you better stat distribution in the end. Also, pick some weapons.

Travlane.5948:

hidden killer will always outdmg executioner on a backstab build.

Incorrect. The win condition for hidden killer over executioner is that your from stealth attacks have to do 50% of your total damage. Like, lets look something real quick that happens to me a lot against against tanky characters.
CnD > Steal > BS > autoattack chain, maybe dodge an attack and miss the last hit > CnD > BS > autoattack chain > HS, guy is downed.
Which trait would win? This is clearly a D/D backstab build, but hidden killer would not win while fighting this person compared to executioner.

Wolfe.3097:

and yes hidden killer is better in a vacuum but im more curious about how it performs in actual play, where you cant gaurantee a stationary target.

If you want to know if its better, you need to record yourself playing this game for the next week, while using hidden killer. Then spend a day going through all the recordings and watching the people/enemies you fight. While watching, look at each kill individually, and on a piece of paper count how many times hidden killer won vs how many times executioner would of won, then pick whichever is better for you.

It will be different for different people depending on your playstyle. To determine which wins, you only need to look at one simple thing, did your from stealth attacks do 50% or more of the damage you did to that person not counting downed state. If on more than half your kills your from stealth attacks contributed 50% damage or more to the total, stick with hidden killer. If not, swap to executioner.

wish.1027:

Ghostwolf.9863:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQNAoaVlUm6OXcy5E/5Ex2je6Tey9woKtpeFILA-jE0AYrkhvEEpIAkFIiAY2DK9psmADYhrIas6FMVZSVuBS7CbwFk9GIujsKEwoFA-w

I made a gear set for you

Random whisper in game: I saw that set you posted a bit ago in the thief forums, it uses 2 different 1 handed weapons and a bow offhand, you suck, you are bad, and you should feel bad.
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQNAoaVlUm6OXcy5E/5Ex2je6Tey9woKtpeFILA-jE0AYrkhvEEpIAkFIiAYyTZN7JIW4KiGreBTViqLRUuCy2bADOkNH2bosKEwoFA-w
So I made this, its better than the set I previously posted because I wasnt paying much attention, and better than the original set, and uses all the same weapons. Sorry for that, my bad.

Scorael.8952:

If there is a way to at least gauge where his position is, it will even the odds.

Theres an easy way to tell where he’s going, 99% of the time. If he’s attacking people, he’s moving to position himself behind whoever he is attacking in the faster way possible. If he’s running away and far away from you, he’s running straight in the direction you last saw him running. If he’s running away from you and is sort of close, he probably did a 180 and is running the exact opposite direction you last saw him.

Ghostwolf.9863:

I’m rolling with this one, I really enjoy it for longer fights.
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQNAoaVlYm6OXcS5E/5ExmieuTuHG1pNtTBWtKA-j0zAYLioRCCAZBiIAm9gSfKrJwA2GCbfYIa6FMVZSVuBS7CbwFk9GKrCBMaCA-w

And when I’m in the mood for cracking nuts:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQNAoaVlUm6OXcy5E/5Ex2je6Tiy9woKtpdFuKA-j0zAYrkhvEEJIAkFIqAY6bRrJwAWcLiGreBTVmUlbg0uwGcBZvRSdHYSBExYA-w
Not really good for other situations than when sneaking up on someone 1v1.

The crusade continues!
Compared to your first set, this one increase your toughness and vitality and trades 3% crit damage for 32 power.
2220 98% vs 2252 95%
2220 * ((1 * .44) + (2.48 * .56)) = 4059.936
2252 * ((1 * .44) + (2.45 * .56)) = 4080.624
So the set I posted increases your damage, your toughness and your vitality over what you’re using currently.

In favor of your second set I made this one.
Damage comparison again:
2543 104% vs 2499 109%
2543 * ((1 * .62) + (2.54 * .38)) = 4031.1636
2499 * ((1 * .62) + (2.59 * .38)) = 4008.8958
It increases your damage a bit, and trades a bit of HP for more toughness to keep your scholar runes active longer if you get hit. Personally I would trade the valk earring with soldiers, youd lose probably 2% damage but it would keep the scholar runes active longer.

Ghostwolf.9863:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQNAoaVlUm6OXcy5E/5Ex2je6Tey9woKtpeFILA-jE0AYrkhvEEpIAkFIiAY2DK9psmADYhrIas6FMVZSVuBS7CbwFk9GIujsKEwoFA-w

(for whatever reason its adding kitten to the end of your link and removing the K on knights, so Im typing this so that doesnt happen)
Knights gear is terrible, worse than cavalier, which I crusade against fanatically, you lose a lot using it. It’s pretty much always better to use Soldiers and Berserkers primarily with just 1-2 valk pieces for balance. Unless pretty much every piece of gear you have on is knights/cavaliers to make toughness your strongest stat instead of power, but the problem with that is that it makes it very difficult to kill people
I made a gear set for you
I included a screenshot of the two compared at the bottom. The things youre losing are 5 precision and 5% crit damage. Losing 5 precision doesnt matter, as 1998 precision is 56% crit chance and 2019 precision is 57% crit chance meaning theyre both 56% crit chance. So all I have to do to prove mines better is show that 32 power is better than or equal to 5% crit damage.
2100 * ((1 * .44) + (2.54 * .56)) = 3911.04
2132 * ((1 * .44) + (2.49 * .56)) = 3910.9408
So there ya go. When using 32 power instead of 5% crit damage, you lose 1 damage for every 40,000 damage you do. Seems like a good trade to me for the increased toughness and vitality. You could do a lot better by optimizing your precision too.

Klabbo.6927:

While I feel as though executioner is actually better statistically in a lot of cases, I almost always take hidden killer for another reason. When hit by a large burst from a crit backstab, the enemy will usually freak out, pop their heals and cooldowns and generally go on the defence. Even if the the overall damage is less throughout the entire fight, the psychological effect of a sudden large drop in health does more to help me win the fight than an extra 20% damage once they’re low. IMO.

I argue this as well, its a good point if you want to debate tactics instead of math.

Wolfe.3097:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQNAoaVlUmiO3ey5E9pEx2jeqTe6VgsA-ToAA2EOpcy5kxJpTWnGjsAZiB

some may scoff at the choices, but honestly, it seems to offer the best consistancy and balance between damage, and survivability,and the utility that D/P brings.

I dunno about you, but personally, I like to use all my trait points. When I click your link and check yours, I see 0/30/0/0/10…
I preffer this site though:
http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/
Some of the math is off and it doesnt seem to update traits, but it gives you a good idea of EHP ED and precision.

Ghostwolf.9863:

Wolfe.3097:

nice builds, ive considered hidden killer over executioner, the ability to ALWAYS crit from stealth is super nice, does it outweight executioner? not sure cuz when you do crit with executioner it hits harder, and your attacks outside of stealth will hit harder after that 50% mark.

It’s honestly hard to say which is better.

Its not hard to say which is better, I did the math before, check my post history if youre interested. But the conclusion is that if backstab does 50% of your damage using hidden killer, it barely wins. Thats effectively the break even point. If backstab does less than 50% of your damage with the hidden killer trait selected executioner is better.

WonderfulCT.6278:

Get a minor sigil of accuracy and kill one npc.

Power stacks are better than precision because you want to build for exact crit chance to maximize effectiveness. I covered this in my last thread, but you want to use bloodlust sigils and oils (not stones) for food, and make your precision hit an exact value and convert all the rest of your stats in precision to something else. Random extra power is ok because it always adds to your damage, precision doesnt work that way, only every 21st point of precision is worth anything at all. Because of this using an unreliable 250 precision that could be any value divisible by 10 up to 250 isnt smart. In my last thread I also went over why using power/power or precision/precision isnt as good as power/precision in sigil/wrench from a DPS standpoint if youre interested, mixing them increases your DPS compared to both being the same stat.

Anyway! onto todays thoughts of how stupid this game is and how it needs to learn how to count correctly. My guardians base stats are
1167 Precision
1557 Toughness
1445 Vitality
1386 Precision is what I get in game after using these foods.

1557 * .06 = 93.42
1445 * .04 = 57.8

leaving all decimals
93.42 + 57. 8 + 70 + 1167 = 1388.22
this doesnt work.

dropping all decimals
93 + 57 + 70 + 1167 = 1387
this doesnt work

rounding to the nearest number
93 + 58 + 70 + 1167 = 1388
this doesnt work

It’s safe to say it is definitely using something other than * .0x to determine how much of each stat oils/stones give. My predictions for what it’s using will be the following:
1% = 10/1024
2% = 20/1024
3% = 30/1024
4% = 40/1024
5% = 50/1024
6% = 61/1024
7% = 71/1024

1557 * (61 / 1024) = 92.7509765625
1445 * (40 / 1024) = 56.4453125

leaving all decimals
92.7509765625 + 56.4453125 + 70 + 1167 = 1386.19628906
this works

dropping all decimals
92 + 56 + 70 + 1167 = 1385
this doesnt work

rounding to the nearest number
93 + 56 + 70 + 1167 = 1386
this works

It’s going to take a really long time to determine if this is what it’s actually doing, unless I get stupidly lucky, math was never my strong suite and I only have a bad high school education in it, and I need to find a value where we’ll get a different number with 60/1024 compared to 61/1024 and then check in game to see which shows up. Since the the 6%‘s and 7%’s could be 60/1024 and 70/1024. The other thing we can temporarily rule out from this is dropping decimals and ignoring them completely in these calculations, unless I can find a situation where thats the only thing that works, or rule out the other two in different calculations, which would indicate this is entirely wrong. Fun times, maybe I’ll get lucky and a Dev will post and tell me what what exactly oils/stones do and why my math is off, that would be great! lol….

The next step is slightly increasing my vitality to bring this:
1445 * (40 / 1024) = 56.4453125
to 56.51 – 56.99 to see which of the two it appears to be using. After that I need to drop that vit and remove just a bit of toughness to bring this:
1557 * (61 / 1024) = 92.7509765625
to 92 – 92.49 to see what happens.

Edit: Forgot to add screenshots of my guardians stats. Also, I forgot to mention, I brought up the HS math thing because there’s probably a backwards way of calculating it to find a gear set I could use for testing purposes, but I dont know what it is. So Im basically going through everything I have and randomly mixing and matching gear to see what numbers I get and if I can break my ideas and prove them wrong.

This is my guardians current setup, Im working on improving it, so its not really finished or ready for discussion yet. And since the site cant save my boon durations, I posted another picture with them included.

Last edit, I swear, if you look at the build site it predicts 1388 precision for this build, which is wrong. Also, that 75% regen duration should be 70%.

BobbyT.7192:

C-c-c-combo breaker,

Sorry had to break up this solo thread :p

Other people talked to me for like 5 minutes…
then I typed a lot of numbers and lost them =/

So this is my new idea.
Everything is broken down into random numbers that are not exact % ‘s. That 6% of toughness is probably like 5.95% and thats 4% vit is probably like 3.95%. This is my new theory, and I’ll get back to this later to confirm/deny this is whats happening, but it’s gonna take awhile, probably not til at least tomorrow.

Basically I think the 6% is actually 61/1024 (5.957%~) and 4% is actually 40/1024 (3.906%~), if that gives anyone an idea of what Im thinking about.

EDIT 1::

Actually it might not take that long. Lets see if this says 1777
1306 * (61/1024) = 77.798828125
1234 * (40/1024) = 48.203125
77.798828125 + 48.203125 + 70 + 1581 = 1777.00195313

Ya, this is my new theory for whats happening, but I dont think it can cover a 5 point swing in the mug set.

EDIT 2::

Mug set
1556 * (61/1024) = 92.69140625
1279 * (40/1024) = 49.9609375
92.69140625 + 49.9609375 + 70 + 1721 = 1933.65234375

Ya, it doesnt cover the 5 point swing, only 2. So something is still wrong with my mug set.

Im tired and mad, does it show?

Original equation:
1703 precision
1428 toughness
1392 vitality

1428 * .06 = 85.68
1392 * .04 = 55.68
85.68 + 55.68 + 70 + 1703 = 1914.36

So lets see what happens if I switch my berserker shoes with a divinity rune with my soldiers shoes with a beryl orb.
New equation:
1703 -10 -24 = 1669 precision
1428 -10 + 24 = 1442 toughness
1392 -10 + 24 + 15 = 1421 vitality

1442 * .06 = 86.52
1421 * .04 = 56.84
86.52 + 56.84 + 70 + 1669 = 1882.36
0.36 isnt high enough, but the predicted value of 1882 is correct in-game.

berserker/divinity gloves to soldier/beryl orb.
1669 -10 -24 = 1635 precision
1442 -10 + 24 = 1456 toughness
1421 -10 + 24 + 15 = 1450 vitality

1456 * .06 = 87.36
1450 * .04 = 58
87.36 + 58 + 70 + 1635 = 1850.36
0.36 is to low again (the next better not be .36!) but the predicted precision is correct in-game.

At this point I typed out like 15 more combinations of gear, and none of them worked, so I deleted them all, lol. Here’s one that works:
Soldier/divinity hat, soldier/beryl orb gloves/boots, valk dagger, b/b amulet, back, ring, earring, b/v ring, earring, 3 precision infusions, 3 power infusions.

1581 precision
1306 toughness
1234 vitality

1306 * .06 = 78.36
1234 * .04 = 49.36
78 + 49 + 70 + 1581 = 1778
78.36 + 49.36 + 70 + 1581 = 1778.72

So when I use an oil and dragon candy in-game if I see 1778 it means it doesnt truncate until after adding the values for precision added from toughness and vitality are added together. If we see 1779 it means rather than truncate it rounds to the nearest number (which would be up to 1779). If we see 1778 it cannot mean it truncates before adding the precision added from vit and toughness together, since we actually ruled that possibility out earlier in the thread if youve read it all, so please dont say it does/can.

So heres the problem.
It’s 1777
GO FK YOURSELF GW2 AND LEARN HOW TO COUNT!!!

Yay, yet another post as I spam this thread. Here’s my base values with the 30/30/10 set

1703 precision
1428 toughness
1392 vitality

1428 * .06 = 85.68
1392 * .04 = 55.68
85 + 55 + 70 + 1703 = 1913
85.5 + 55.5 + 70 + 1703 = 1914
86 + 55 + 70 + 1703 = 1915

1844 is the value I am shown with just oil on.
1844 – 1703 = 141

85 + 55 = 140
85.5 + 55.5 = 141
86 + 56 = 142

So from this, it looks like rather than round up, it adds the decimals together for the vit and toughness values, then truncates or rounds down (you would have .32 remaining after adding them together, which is less than .5 so the next step should be to add enough toughness to hit .51 or higher after adding the 2 together to find out if it rounds or truncates at this step), since I would have 1915 precision if it rounded up before adding them together. The other problem with this set is that it doesnt look like the runes are excluded from the calculations for how much precision Oils add. There also cannot be a cap of 139 precision, as this adds 141 precision. So ya, Im even more confused now.

Also: theres no defensive infusions in this set.

First picture will be no food, second is with oils, third is with oils and dragonrolls, 4th is traits.

Also Ive totally wasted like 2 gold on food and retraiting today, hurray for me.

purgatoryz.6038:

wish.1027:

(This is the math to determine how much precision I should gain if divinity runes arent counted towards the stats used by master maintenance oils to figure out how much precision they should give)
(1556 – 60) * .06 = 89.76
(1279 – 60) * .04 = 48.76
89+48= 137
That doesn’t come out right as Im gaining 139 precision, not 137. So I still dont know…

What if the divinity runes aren’t added like you figured above, but the oils round those numbers instead of truncating? That would make 90 + 49 = 139?

It’s quite possible there’s several “rounding” routines in their code and that they aren’t all equal.

I really doubt it rounds up, I dont even know how to put it, its just easier to drop decimals than to deal with them in any way, so I would assume the game does that, rather than work with extra numbers to swing things into the players favor. Especially since every game I ever paid any attention to at all always truncated. But hey, it’s just baseless speculation on my part, Im sure we could do a few checks with lots of different gear on and no/different runes and determine if it rounds up/truncates/counts runes. That thought didnt even enter my mind honestly. It could be that the runes arent counted if it rounds up. I’ll look at this and try to figure it out tonight/tomorrow, if anyone beats me to it, good for you =3

But still, I want to point out something:

Mug: 10/30/30/0/0

Fall: 0/30/30/10/0

I have both of these sets now. And the 30/30/10 comes out correctly, while the 10/30/30 does not.

EDIT: Added a screenshot of the Fall set, with foods and no bloodlust stacks, the stat values are exactly the same as on the site. But the mug set has 5 extra precision compared to what you see in game, and my math says it should match the site.

If youre not going to buy divinity runes

Superior Rune of the Wurm – 30/30/10 – with corrected Precision

Superior Rune of the Wurm – 10/30/30 – with corrected Precision

These are the best you can do for a balanced build, but the precision is probably going to come out wrong, because this game is stupid.

(This is the math to determine how much precision I should gain if divinity runes arent counted towards the stats used by master maintenance oils to figure out how much precision they should give)
(1556 – 60) * .06 = 89.76
(1279 – 60) * .04 = 48.76
89+48= 137
That doesn’t come out right as Im gaining 139 precision, not 137. So I still dont know…

Forget everything I just said.
When I took off the dragonroll to see what oil gave me, I used a mango pie which adds vit, lol.
With omnomberry bar and master maintenance oil I have 1860 precision.
1860-1721=139
So Oils are actually only giving me 139 precision, so thats where I lose 5 stats. But I still dont know why im losing those stats.

EDIT: So maybe the stats on my divinity runes arent counting towards the oils, as thats all I can think of, brb with quick math.

Travlane.5948:

are we complaining abuot 5 precision?

1935 precision is exactly 53% crit chance, I build my character specifically to hit that number so I dont waste anything, as you gain 1 crit chance for every 21 points of precision. Having 16 wasted stats with 3 precision infusions is sort of a big deal to me, as it means I completely wasted those infusions and everything that went into acquiring them, including the mighty infusion I dumped when I switched my offensive ring to precision from power. But hey, mail me 750 passion flowers and 300 powerful bloods and I’ll swap them to mighty infusions and stop complaining. It’s only like 300 gold right? (mail it to wish.3102, thats the account Im on right now)

Anyway, here’s screenshots of my precision.
First is both, second is just oil, third is just dragonrolls, fourth is neither.

Softspoken.2410:

wish.1027:

I posted a picture of my traits to show I wasnt using the precision to vit trait when I took the SS’s.

Ah, sorry, I missed that picture somehow. Exactly how much precision are you gaining by using the maintenance oil? 144? 139?
Also, what runes / sigils are you using?

I have 2x bloodlust and 1x flame blast sigils, 6x divinity runes.
1556 * .06 = 93.36
1279 * .04 = 51.16
93 + 51 = 144
I should be gaining 144 precision from the oils,
My screen is showing 1864 precision without dragonrolls.
1864-1721=143
So apparently theyre only giving me 143.
Which if that is true, my guess is that it doesnt count infusions for total vit for oils, as my single vitality infusion just barely pushes me above adding another +1 stat. This also leads to the conclusion dragonrolls dont offer as much precision as they advertise.
But when I change the oil to a stone and use a dragonroll, my precision goes from 1721 to 1791… Which means when I use them both I should have 1934 precision…

Have I mentioned I hate this game?

The other weapon set is sword/dagger, and has the same stats as dagger/dagger.

I posted a picture of my traits to show I wasnt using the precision to vit trait when I took the SS’s.

So, as the topic states, something is broken and wrong with my thief, and I cant figure out what it is.

My unbuffed stats are:
1721 precision
1556 toughness
1279 vitality

When I use foods, master maintenance oil (6% of toughness to precision, 4% of vitality to precision) and candied dragonroll (70 precision), I should have 1935 precision, but I do not, I end up with 1930.

1556 * .06 = 93.36
1279 * .04 = 51.16
93 + 51 + 1721 + 70 = 1935

what the heck!

I get that sometimes, but I havent noticed it being from using any particular skill usage. Its just from lack of quality programming on Anets part honestly.

I noticed 2 kinds of errors like this, one where you cant move at all and your character doesnt seem to try to move at all, and one where you make a funny animation as you attempt to move, like you pick up your leg to try and walk, but you cant figure out how to put your foot down, and you stay in the same spot. For the first you have to use a movement skill to be able to move again, like heartseeker. For the second you have to let go of your movement button so your character stops trying to move, then you can move normally.

Darek.1836:

FooDang.2498:

FC how many guys do you have that exploit lol I brought it up in map chat and everyone said " oh yea that’s FC for you" lol it must happen a lot for it to be common knowledge to everyone on the map. I heard of the Flying charr, I thought it was a myth, but after seeing a Charr Guardian walk though the 100% inner gate at valley to come smack me with his hammer as I was trying to set up a defensive arrow cart, then flying chars are possible too, id call out guild names but I met a respectable Ele from the same guild so I wont do that.

what the hell do you want us to do about it

Hunt down the people responsible, find their character name, add said name to your friend list, then tell everyone their account name so we can all report them. Also take screen shots.

spear, spam 2

123456789012345

Rissou.7213:

wish.1027:

I love this thread. All I see is a guy complaining repeatedly that theres a direct counter to his build he could direct counter with his weapon swap. I even told him what it was and exactly what to do, and exactly how the guardian build works, and he’s still calling retaliation OP.

Yeah, I love you too!

You and others actually think its okay for 1 boon to be a counter to a weapon set, gg guys!

Well using a S/D is a counter to the guardians entire class and reason for existance, so I think its fair.

I love this thread. All I see is a guy complaining repeatedly that theres a direct counter to his build he could direct counter with his weapon swap. I even told him what it was and exactly what to do, and exactly how the guardian build works, and he’s still calling retaliation OP.

Wryscher.1432:

wish.1027:

Kaon.7192:

Good luck defending keeps on top of walls now.
We’ll only be able to hit people braindead enough to stand RIGHT NEXT TO THE WALL.

Well, on the bright side, we’ll likely see more Thieves in that group, not because we’re braindead, but because we can’t hit anything otherwise.

If youre hiding in keeps and towers and not using an AC youre doing it wrong anyway.

So your counter argument is no one should have range attacks that hit from walls? Interesting proposal.

No, my argument is that as a thief you should be outside fighting with your melee weapons in a 1v30+ while theyre getting a hail of arrows sprayed on them because youre a badarse and you can get stomps on all the people the ACs down because you can stealth a lot. Or that you should be on an AC because its range and damage are vastly superior to what any class can dish out from on top of a wall. Being outside and getting stomps being the superior option if theres plenty of people around to man the ACs.

I agree

123456789012345

Cloak and Dagger: The player can no longer use this ability stack stealth by attacking WvW walls.

This wasnt actually a nerf. It was a bug fix. Before this fix you could spam CnD on a WvW wall and stack stealth (+3/4 seconds per use). It gave you the revealed debuff icon when you spammed CnD, but it didnt remove you from stealth or prevent you from reentering stealth when you hit the wall.

At no point did they remove the ability to gain stealth by using CnD on a wall in WvW. They simply made it work correctly by eliminating the ability to stack stealth by spamming CnD before stealth wore off.

randomfightfan.4091:

You forgot to add Last Refuge now has a 60s cd from 90s. Guaranteed death at 25% hp 33% more often is a nerf.

And ya, this.

Kaon.7192:

Good luck defending keeps on top of walls now.
We’ll only be able to hit people braindead enough to stand RIGHT NEXT TO THE WALL.

Well, on the bright side, we’ll likely see more Thieves in that group, not because we’re braindead, but because we can’t hit anything otherwise.

If youre hiding in keeps and towers and not using an AC youre doing it wrong anyway.

You dont get perma retaliation on guardian unless you specifically trait and spec for it. It requires all your runes, 2 utilities, 30 points in the boon duration line, as well as the +25% retal duration trait, requires 10 in honor to make shouts recharge faster, requires you to use a great sword or hammer and use skills specifically to reapply it instead of using those things to do damage, and requires you to spam F1 instead of holding it back which does more damage.

You know how common this guardian build is? I’d guess 1 in 30 guardians actually use it, if that. This is a L2P issue with you, as this build is a pretty easy thing to counter on thief, just switch to S/D and use the #3 skill, as it relies almost entirely on boons to stay alive, and youll be taking all those boons and can facetank the guardian. If youre not fighting a guardian like this, just watch for retal to end and then spam unload, its not like kiting guardians is hard… Theyre one of the least mobile classes in the game.

Siva Mira.3546:

Seth.4927:

I can’t wrap my head about the Last Refuge trait, lots of thieves are asking for a change for it, as it’s proc can mean 4s of revealed when the Thief is below 25% health, in other words, certain death. And then they think that it should proc more? I expected better from Anet.

By the next updated, they are going to improve it even better.
“when the Thief is below 25% health he is immune to Stealth.”

They really just need to make that trait activating remove revealed and make you immune to revealed for 1 second. Then it would actually be useful and function as they intended, instead of basically turning any thief with 25% HP into a free kill.