Guild Wars 2

Dondagora.9645:

xDudisx.5914:

Dondagora.9645:

Shattering, as a mechanic, is like Adrenaline skills on warrior, but weaker and a longer cool down. However, we have multiple shatters to cover us in different scenarios instead of a single powerful shatter, each punishing or countering as per the situation, so shattering alone does not help unless the person is paying attention to the when and what.
That’s the skill argument right there.

There’s also two other things to talk about: Resource and Avoidance.

As a mesmer, the resource you are provided with is illusions. Your illusions could give you various benefits while alive, like confusing the enemy or applying conditions or, in the case of phantasms, direct damage. When shattering, you sacrifice this security in a risk-gain scenario gambling your stable damage and protection for a chance to kill, counter-burst, halt, or survive. A mesmer is usually most vulnerable after a shatter because they have no illusions up to protect them, making them like a ranger without a pet[slightly stronger, but you get it, right?]. A good mesmer might be able to cover his tracks and maybe even run through more skills and dodges to get the illusion count back up, but that just shows how much they rely on illusions.

Avoidance… this is not wholly dodging. You can dodge Burst skills, you can dodge stealth skills, you can dodge pet skills. You can also dodge shatters. But, of course, sometimes a skilled mesmer will position his clones perfectly to shatter on you. However, the hole in this argument is two points: Firstly, you can kill illusions. If a mesmer places his clones all around you, it will take two or less hits to kill the clone prematurely. Phantasms are harder, yes, but the mesmer is sacrificing more when he shatters a phantasm so that’s to be expected. No other profession resource in this game, I believe, can be targeted and undone by the enemy. It would be like attacking initiative on a thief, or adrenaline on a warrior. Well, there’s the ranger’s pet, but that still follows the same principle. So if illusions are to close to avoid the shatter, you better kill them instead thinking them as non-existence barely-damaging AIs, as some do. Anything below 3 illusions isn’t that good for a mesmer unless they have IP, in which case they will be close enough for you to hit on your own.
Now, what if illusions are further away and you can’t kill them except with ranged? Well, firstly, use ranged to kill them if not otherwise preoccupied. Secondly, this means that when they run towards you, the tell will be much more obvious and you should do what you can to avoid them then. Blocks, dodge, invuln, etc. You can even kill them as they come. AoE devastates shatter builds as well.

Simply put, because shatter uses illusions, the big weakness are the illusions themselves, which is why it is fine.

The main problem is that ilusionary persona gives you 1s imune without having any ilusion. If this trait was not so much more powerfull than almost everything else we would see all mesmers puting 30 points in a traitline mainly because of it.

1 second of immune maybe once per fight because of the CD, it cannot be spammed and still requires thought. For instance, would you use IP for immunity for a single second if you had time to make more clones to get more? Or would you only use it in a very crunch situation which you would otherwise die from? To make this simple, IP gives a free or extra illusion for any use. However, it is just like any other invulnerable in that it cannot be spammed and is a high CD.

Also, you say the main problem is the 1 second immunity IP gives, but you fail to address the other points I make, seemingly ignore them. Can you please address them with reasons why they don’t make shatter non-OP?

Illusion creation is easy to be done. You dodge you get a clone. 4 out of your 10 weapon skills create a clone or phantasm. Can create even more with utilities. Every single shatter has IP. Shater is insta cast. Say that someone can dodge can be used to just about everything in this game, following that nothing should have been ever changed because well people can dodge. Also moa.

Sagat.3285:

DreamyAbaddon.3265:

We dont need healers in this game.
Anything that encourages roles ruins the combat of the game’s design.

This isn’t WoW people…
Lets avoid turning it into one.

“Healers” exist in wvw but the general diversity of the game is low except in wvw..often..sometimes…. I do feel like the game is very slowly getting to it,pve and conquest need it and help as well.

The idea of zerk should rule is bad design just like the players who wish condition damage wasn’t a stat.

Blasting water fields is similar to having players healing. I agree with you, the game is very slowly moving in that direction. Sigil of Benevolence, runes of the monk, traits like aquatic benevolence, and recently the addition of nomad’s gear.

They could also create more healing power rune sets. We have 16 power, 16 condi dmg but only 6 healing power runes.

Simonoly.4352:

A completely baseless nerf thread.

How is the current shatter Mesmer meta build damaging for sPvP? Does its presence exclude any other classes from this game mode? Is it integral that every serious tPvP composition includes a shatter Mesmer? Does it reach a point where shatter Mesmer begins to carry a team? Is the risk/reward payoff totally out of skew?

These are the sort of questions that lead to balancing changes. You can’t just say something needs a nerf simply because it exists and/or is currently trending.

Zerker and too high spike dmg classes dmg the spvp. Theif and mesmer make almost all the other zerker builds not viable. The reward for all classes should be the same if played right.

DreamyAbaddon.3265:

Conncept.7638:

DreamyAbaddon.3265:

Stats are fine how they are right now.

Yes six of the games nine stats ranging from sub-optimal to completely and utterly worthless in nearly all of the games content is totally okay.

You can’t be serious…

I want to see all of that stuff added to the game as well, new classes, weapons, utilities, dungeons and areas, and even the LS, the whole shebang. But there is absolutely no point in adding any of that content without a functional combat system to play through it with.

look buddy, just because you dont know how stats work or how to make builds using the current stats given doesnt mean they are useless…

This is clearly an L2P issue

Are you trolling? In pve anything other than zerker and assassins is useless. In spvp almost all classes are either celestial or soldier or zerker. In wvw zerg is all about soldier classes.

Ask for changes in the game is completely valid. Lol if everything was perfect and 100% ok why did we get so many changes during the last 2 years? The game needs to keep mutating and innovating.

Anton.1769:

xDudisx.5914:

Anton.1769:

xDudisx.5914:

Anton.1769:

Simon.3794:

Anton.1769:

Simon.3794:

Anton.1769:

xDudisx.5914:

Anton.1769:

xDudisx.5914:

I have +than 3k hours in the game played all classes in spvp. If the shatter mesmer class was even close to be balance it would’t be present in almost every single successful team with the exactly same build.

You contradict yourself. Some EU and almost 0 NA successful teams use mesmers. BUT ALL of them use guardins!!!! It’s means you will lose 10/10 games without guards!

If the guardian class was even close to be balance it would’t be present in EVERY single successful team with the exactly same build Are you agree?

I think they should buff other support classes too, to create other valid options, but the guardian is not running around the entire map destroying people in a few seconds, the mesmers and thieves are. Also thief is a real risk reward class because most of their dmg come from melee range and they have less hp than mesmer. When was the last time you got killed by a guard? Try to put a mesmer to duel a guard. The max the guard will achieve is to take long to die and do no dmg.

But I still don’t understand: if mesmer so OP and sure -> guardian WHY we don’t see them at 100% of teams like guardins? May be that top teams just bunch of noobs and don’t see OPness of mesmer? Especially these dat NA teams. Need tell them how they are wrong

actually, guardian is not 100% anymore, atleast on NA.
and there are a lot of mesmers as well as guardians on EU.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/2c56ep/tournament_pvp_win_rates/

does it look like 100% to you?

yes, 95.29% presence of guardins at team views us Guardin is a base of team.

and there are a lot of mesmers as well as guardians on EU

does it look like the same amount of gurdians(95.29%) and mesmers (27.58%) to you?

The percentage may be due to the fact it is harder to play mesmer than guardian. But from where are you collecting this data? Normal team queue? Most of the times the team that win Anet’s tourney have 1mesmer+thief.

If you will click link to reddit you ill see: “The tournaments that I have gathered info on are Mistpedia, ESL, ToL and MLG”

If anet ever make a 1v1 tourney prepare to see 100% mesmer or thief presence

Anet will never do it because they have told you 100 times they will not ballance 1×1 game mod

So did you agree with me saying that shatter mesmer is not a balanced 1v1 class? Having builds like that is what keep us from having new game modes, because if they add anything other than conquest everyone would see how mesmer op in 1v1 open field. Do you have the source from they saying wont balance things in 1v1?

Sw/dg thief was in a situation similar to what mesmer is now. No way to counter the mobility imune spam. What they did? Made a way to count sw #3. That was a 1v1 balance.

Anton.1769:

xDudisx.5914:

Anton.1769:

Simon.3794:

Anton.1769:

Simon.3794:

Anton.1769:

xDudisx.5914:

Anton.1769:

xDudisx.5914:

I have +than 3k hours in the game played all classes in spvp. If the shatter mesmer class was even close to be balance it would’t be present in almost every single successful team with the exactly same build.

You contradict yourself. Some EU and almost 0 NA successful teams use mesmers. BUT ALL of them use guardins!!!! It’s means you will lose 10/10 games without guards!

If the guardian class was even close to be balance it would’t be present in EVERY single successful team with the exactly same build Are you agree?

I think they should buff other support classes too, to create other valid options, but the guardian is not running around the entire map destroying people in a few seconds, the mesmers and thieves are. Also thief is a real risk reward class because most of their dmg come from melee range and they have less hp than mesmer. When was the last time you got killed by a guard? Try to put a mesmer to duel a guard. The max the guard will achieve is to take long to die and do no dmg.

But I still don’t understand: if mesmer so OP and sure -> guardian WHY we don’t see them at 100% of teams like guardins? May be that top teams just bunch of noobs and don’t see OPness of mesmer? Especially these dat NA teams. Need tell them how they are wrong

actually, guardian is not 100% anymore, atleast on NA.
and there are a lot of mesmers as well as guardians on EU.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/2c56ep/tournament_pvp_win_rates/

does it look like 100% to you?

yes, 95.29% presence of guardins at team views us Guardin is a base of team.

and there are a lot of mesmers as well as guardians on EU

does it look like the same amount of gurdians(95.29%) and mesmers (27.58%) to you?

The percentage may be due to the fact it is harder to play mesmer than guardian. But from where are you collecting this data? Normal team queue? Most of the times the team that win Anet’s tourney have 1mesmer+thief.

If you will click link to reddit you ill see: “The tournaments that I have gathered info on are Mistpedia, ESL, ToL and MLG”

If anet ever make a 1v1 tourney prepare to see 100% mesmer or thief presence

Anton.1769:

Simon.3794:

Anton.1769:

Simon.3794:

Anton.1769:

xDudisx.5914:

Anton.1769:

xDudisx.5914:

I have +than 3k hours in the game played all classes in spvp. If the shatter mesmer class was even close to be balance it would’t be present in almost every single successful team with the exactly same build.

You contradict yourself. Some EU and almost 0 NA successful teams use mesmers. BUT ALL of them use guardins!!!! It’s means you will lose 10/10 games without guards!

If the guardian class was even close to be balance it would’t be present in EVERY single successful team with the exactly same build Are you agree?

I think they should buff other support classes too, to create other valid options, but the guardian is not running around the entire map destroying people in a few seconds, the mesmers and thieves are. Also thief is a real risk reward class because most of their dmg come from melee range and they have less hp than mesmer. When was the last time you got killed by a guard? Try to put a mesmer to duel a guard. The max the guard will achieve is to take long to die and do no dmg.

But I still don’t understand: if mesmer so OP and sure -> guardian WHY we don’t see them at 100% of teams like guardins? May be that top teams just bunch of noobs and don’t see OPness of mesmer? Especially these dat NA teams. Need tell them how they are wrong

actually, guardian is not 100% anymore, atleast on NA.
and there are a lot of mesmers as well as guardians on EU.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/2c56ep/tournament_pvp_win_rates/

does it look like 100% to you?

yes, 95.29% presence of guardins at team views us Guardin is a base of team.

and there are a lot of mesmers as well as guardians on EU

does it look like the same amount of gurdians(95.29%) and mesmers (27.58%) to you?

The percentage may be due to the fact it is harder to play mesmer than guardian. But from where are you collecting this data? Normal team queue? Most of the times the team that win Anet’s tourney have 1mesmer+thief.

I dont know what are you trying to prove. That bunker guard is sacrificing all his dmg and mobility to be able to hold a points. Not like the mesmer that has super mobility and insane dmg, and dont need defense because there is no real counter to imune. Mesmer in spvp is like people running zerker in dungeons. Stuff dies so fast you dont need anything other than imune+dodges.

Even if guard was op it doesnt imply shatter mesmers are not, as it is possible to have + than 1 broken build in the game lol. In my opinion NA comps are moving in the direction the game should go. less zerkers and + long group fights.

In most games skills are not bound to weapon. In archage for example there are 120 classes and you can customize your skills a lot. You dont know what is coming from the enemy. You will have to create a plan during the fight. If you fight a hambow you know 100% what he is going to do. If you fight a mesmer you know what he will do. The entire game is just about click dodge fast in the right time. The classes are too simplified and “forced” to run 1 or 2 builds because everything else is subpar.

Anton.1769:

xDudisx.5914:

I have +than 3k hours in the game played all classes in spvp. If the shatter mesmer class was even close to be balance it would’t be present in almost every single successful team with the exactly same build.

You contradict yourself. Some EU and almost 0 NA successful teams use mesmers. BUT ALL of them use guardins!!!! It’s means you will lose 10/10 games without guards!

If the guardian class was even close to be balance it would’t be present in EVERY single successful team with the exactly same build Are you agree?

I think they should buff other support classes too, to create other valid options, but the guardian is not running around the entire map destroying people in a few seconds, the mesmers and thieves are. Also thief is a real risk reward class because most of their dmg come from melee range and they have less hp than mesmer. When was the last time you got killed by a guard? Try to put a mesmer to duel a guard. The max the guard will achieve is to take long to die and do no dmg.

Distaste.4801:

wasted.6817:

xDudisx.5914:

Long fights with combo field, finishers, group support and class sinergy are much for fun than watch enemys that drop in less than 10s to a thief or shatter mesmer.

Imo, it’s more like opposite. Long fights = stale match. It just drags on and on, no big plays, no big moves, nothing changes. Plus it’s in general more primitive and easier to execute tactic, to bunker up here and there and get your long, stale fights, doesn’t require that much coordination as (i.e.) mesmer and thief do.

Long fights require more skilled play for longer periods of time, you have to constantly be making good decisions for the duration or you’re going to lose. It also gives a lot of time for counterplay, a concept that GW2 has forgotten. That makes fights fun for a lot of people. I think we can both agree that SPvP is by no means a success, the question is why? I think it’s purely because the style of combat is simply not appealing. Unless you bunker up, run cheese, or are super skilled, you die in seconds; it isn’t fun. While I will say it does take certain skills to play GW2 at high level, it’s definitely heavily based on fast reaction time. The problem is that fast reaction based combat cuts out a big portion of players and makes seeing “the big moves” very hard.

I agree 100% with you. The game should walk towards longer fights and make people think more in combos and when to use the skills. Not just whoever clicks faster win, because most classes have 1 or 2 tricks and 90% of the playerbase runs the same builds. If we had +build variety would be hard to predict what is coming from the enemy player. The way it is now we already know their entire build and traits just by looking at the class and weapon. Hambow war, shater mesmer, pasive fear necros, cleric shout guard, celestial ele, celestial 2kit engi,etc.. you look at them and already know everything they can do and how your class should react. The fight is decided by who clicks faster not how creative people are using combos and chainig skills. In other mmos they avoid this by not making the skills bound to the weapons. So you dont know what is coming from the enemy.

PhDusk.2590:

xDudisx.5914:

Be hard or easy to play also is not a good argument. The balance should be done based on how the best players perform with the class not how the normal or bad player perform. No class should be broken and king of 1v1 just because it is “harder” to play.

King of 1v1s?
Dude, a shatter mesmer should not really be 1v1ing. Also, with that logic then every class should be nerfed because there is at least one person for each class who is incredible at what they do. Sounds like you need to roll a mesmer and learn how to play it so you can better understand how to counter it. Or you could just roll a thief and gg.

I have a mesmer btw. If you get a good mesmer vs a good anything else other than other mesmer thief. The chances are that the mesmer will win. The build can be 100% offensive running no condi clear and still have great suitability due to imune spam, reflect on F4, cc (staff 5) and insane mobility (insta cast staff #2).

Say something is balance just because is harder to play is not a valid argument. Imagine we make a race, one person walking and the other on a car. I can say that drive a car require more skill than walk so by that logic the race between the person and the car would be fine and balanced.

A shatter mesmer is just a harder to play much more powerfull version of the LB/GS ranger that poeple QQ so much about. If people were used to see 25% of the numbers of zerk rangers playing well with a meta mesmer people would realize how game breaking this build is.

PhDusk.2590:

xDudisx.5914:

Be hard or easy to play also is not a good argument. The balance should be done based on how the best players perform with the class not how the normal or bad player perform. No class should be broken and king of 1v1 just because it is “harder” to play.

King of 1v1s?
Dude, a shatter mesmer should not really be 1v1ing. Also, with that logic then every class should be nerfed because there is at least one person for each class who is incredible at what they do. Sounds like you need to roll a mesmer and learn how to play it so you can better understand how to counter it. Or you could just roll a thief and gg.

Put them the meta to fight a duel in legacy of foefire’s graveyard and dont obligate the players to sit on the point. You will see how the mesmer will kite most meta builds forever.
-A hambow wont land a single hammer hit, he can avoid most of the bow skills too just by walking.
-A bunker guard will do no dmg. Might take long to die but will not get even close to down the mesmer to 50% hp.
-Celestial staff or d/d ele. If using staff wont land any of the hard hit skills. With d/d the chances are still in favor of the mesmer.
-Engi: from far away your grenades are not a threat.
-Ranger: spirit ranger will be obliterated

This is one of the reasons we would never have duel option outside of spvp. Devs don’t want people to realise that mesmer and thief are like god mode duel classes if you dont force people to sit in a point.

Dondagora.9645:

Shattering, as a mechanic, is like Adrenaline skills on warrior, but weaker and a longer cool down. However, we have multiple shatters to cover us in different scenarios instead of a single powerful shatter, each punishing or countering as per the situation, so shattering alone does not help unless the person is paying attention to the when and what.
That’s the skill argument right there.

There’s also two other things to talk about: Resource and Avoidance.

As a mesmer, the resource you are provided with is illusions. Your illusions could give you various benefits while alive, like confusing the enemy or applying conditions or, in the case of phantasms, direct damage. When shattering, you sacrifice this security in a risk-gain scenario gambling your stable damage and protection for a chance to kill, counter-burst, halt, or survive. A mesmer is usually most vulnerable after a shatter because they have no illusions up to protect them, making them like a ranger without a pet[slightly stronger, but you get it, right?]. A good mesmer might be able to cover his tracks and maybe even run through more skills and dodges to get the illusion count back up, but that just shows how much they rely on illusions.

Avoidance… this is not wholly dodging. You can dodge Burst skills, you can dodge stealth skills, you can dodge pet skills. You can also dodge shatters. But, of course, sometimes a skilled mesmer will position his clones perfectly to shatter on you. However, the hole in this argument is two points: Firstly, you can kill illusions. If a mesmer places his clones all around you, it will take two or less hits to kill the clone prematurely. Phantasms are harder, yes, but the mesmer is sacrificing more when he shatters a phantasm so that’s to be expected. No other profession resource in this game, I believe, can be targeted and undone by the enemy. It would be like attacking initiative on a thief, or adrenaline on a warrior. Well, there’s the ranger’s pet, but that still follows the same principle. So if illusions are to close to avoid the shatter, you better kill them instead thinking them as non-existence barely-damaging AIs, as some do. Anything below 3 illusions isn’t that good for a mesmer unless they have IP, in which case they will be close enough for you to hit on your own.
Now, what if illusions are further away and you can’t kill them except with ranged? Well, firstly, use ranged to kill them if not otherwise preoccupied. Secondly, this means that when they run towards you, the tell will be much more obvious and you should do what you can to avoid them then. Blocks, dodge, invuln, etc. You can even kill them as they come. AoE devastates shatter builds as well.

Simply put, because shatter uses illusions, the big weakness are the illusions themselves, which is why it is fine.

The main problem is that ilusionary persona gives you 1s imune without having any ilusion. If this trait was not so much more powerfull than almost everything else we would see all mesmers puting 30 points in a traitline mainly because of it.

Anton.1769:

don’t accept seriously OP, he is novice at game and confused by clones. Give him few times and he will understand how kill mesmer in 2 shoots

I have +than 3k hours in the game played all classes in spvp. If the shatter mesmer class was even close to be balance it would’t be present in almost every single successful team with the exactly same build.

Anton.1769:

xDudisx.5914:

Almost every single team in all Anet’s tourneys run a shatter mesmer. The best duelist class shoundt have so much mobility (portal,blink). The imune spam via evades was nerfed on thief. Now is time to nerf the imune spam via shatter F4/sword 2.

People claimed a nerf for hambows because everyone was running 1. Why dont we see the same with mesmer? They are present in the great majority of top teams. Be easy or hard to play shouldnt be taken in account for balance, they need to balance around how the top players perform with the class.

Suggestions: increase the base damage on F1 but reduce the way it scale with power. Increase base dmg but shatter cant crit. Change F4 from imune to -50% dmg, or only imune to direct dmg (like endure pain). Put a cast time on staff #2 (only insta cast weapon teleport in game? ).

lol, Guardin is at 100% teams at NA and EU, while mesmer may be 70% EU and 20% NA. So Guardian 2 TIMES MORE PICKABLE -> 2 times more OP, NERF ZIS FAZT!!!! Yes?

The guardian wont kill anyway by himself. He is just support this is ok.

shimmerlessEU.6841:

I’ve waited so long for this thread… getting 2012 deja vu…

They still basically run the same 20-20-0-0-30 build since almost 2 years ago. The topic is very relevant.

Chrispy.5641:

The idea I want to add to this is that Critical Healing should benefit from Precision and Ferocity by only half as much as Damage does.

This means that you start out with only a 2% critical healing chance and 125% normal healing on a critical. Through stats/traits/boons, the highest you could feasibly get is 50-55% critical healing chance (though 70-75% could be possible), and 175-180% normal healing on a critical.

I’m in favor of this not affecting self heals (though they should benefit more from healing power baseline anyways), but all other heals should benefit (and I do mean all others)

A Water blast under this idea with best possible stats (with max. investment in Precision, Healing Power, and Ferocity), would then have a 1:2 chance to heal for 3200 health instead of 1800-ish. Even with Monk Runes, Aquatic benevolence, and sigil of benevolence, the heal would be only 4700 or so.

And I think that’s fair for the investment.

Yes for someone to reach that they would sacrifice all the damage and self sustain capability.

I dont see why people are QQ about the idea of crit heals. If they dont like they could just dont run it. Wont affect anyone in pve, would just be another alternative not optimal build in wvw and in spvp the changes would be minimal.

Aro.8275:

This would be hilarious for my ele, simply auto attacking with an old build was aoe healing 600. Probably incredibly difficult to balance though.

Hehe imagine Regeneration crit healing.. or Healing Signet being more op?

It would only work for “direct” heals. The same way you cant crit a condi shouldnt be able to crit on a boon. Healing signet is a self heal wouldn be affected by what I suggested.

Be hard or easy to play also is not a good argument. The balance should be done based on how the best players perform with the class not how the normal or bad player perform. No class should be broken and king of 1v1 just because it is “harder” to play.

Having classes like mesmer and thief so viable running zerker is one of the reasons all the other classes run bunkers. Because anything squishier than celestial or soldiers will get destroyed in 5seconds by those 2. Without so much dmg extreme classes maybe the others could play more offensive playstyle.

PhDusk.2590:

The current mesmer meta has an immune every 46 seconds with the double bounce being taken now. Very few of the top mesmers run sword, but run staff for the ability to kite.

These meta builds literally have zero condi clear, and can be killed by one condi burst. The changes you suggest would destroy mesmer, as immune is one of the few defenses we have from burst, as we are usually a priority target. Also, mesmer is not considered viable on its own, but only with a thief. So that means that taking a mesmer reduces the flexibility of a team.

You may see lots of mesmers in EU, but in NA they are not in the majority at all due to the sustain specs that are preferred. If anything, fire and air sigils need to be nerfed, but please leave shatter alone.

Also, how hard is it to see clones running at you?

Use the excuse that someone can dodge is not a valid argument for class balance. Lets say they create a skill that does 50k dmg with 1s cast time. One can say that it is not broken because you could doge. By this logic anything that is not insta cast is balance and the game was perfect 2 years ago.

They dont need more than 1 or 2 imunes because the dmg they do is so insane will burst most classes in just a few seconds before taking any condi. They may not be good to fight in a point but put them in open field to see how they kite and destroy anything other than a thief or anothermesmer.

If a class runs 0 condi clear, almost no defensive traits, zerker+runes of the traveller and is still top meta op it obviously need a rework in the mechanics. No wonders every single mesmer run the same copy paste build that had suffered very few changes in 2 years.

JandNTeam.7630:

xDudisx.5914:

Tao.5096:

xDudisx.5914:

If you in this 2 years they have been slowly buffing healing specs. A sigil that stacks up to +12.5% healing, a rune that gives 10%, traits like aquatic benevolence… I dont see how crit healing would be a problem, since most classes with healing power have low crit chance and in most cases no investment in crit dmg. The crit would only work on allies not yourself celestial ele would be the same in 1v1.

This change would’t result in a clasic holy trinity, actually that is impossible without having a decent aggro system. Even if that was created it wouldn’t be better than zerker. So I dont see why are people scared of healing lol.

Marvelous idea to turn Ele into Clerics.
10k+ healing aoe shots every 10 sec per party.

Lovely~

Considering this guy would do no dmg and be squishy as a zerker I dont see how it is a problem in the pve and wvw perspective. In spvp the only amulet that has precision+ferocity+healing is celestial and it wouldnt be 10k not even with pve/wvw gear. A lot of games have critical healing it just makes sense that if dmg can be multiplied by crits healing should be able to do the same.

Maybe cap on HPS?

hps= healing per second?

Yes it could be like only half of your crit chance used for critical healing or a fraction of your crit dmg..

It should not work blasting water fields. Just crits on weapon skills.

Tao.5096:

xDudisx.5914:

If you in this 2 years they have been slowly buffing healing specs. A sigil that stacks up to +12.5% healing, a rune that gives 10%, traits like aquatic benevolence… I dont see how crit healing would be a problem, since most classes with healing power have low crit chance and in most cases no investment in crit dmg. The crit would only work on allies not yourself celestial ele would be the same in 1v1.

This change would’t result in a clasic holy trinity, actually that is impossible without having a decent aggro system. Even if that was created it wouldn’t be better than zerker. So I dont see why are people scared of healing lol.

Marvelous idea to turn Ele into Clerics.
10k+ healing aoe shots every 10 sec per party.

Lovely~

Considering this guy would do no dmg and be squishy as a zerker I dont see how it is a problem in the pve and wvw perspective. In spvp the only amulet that has precision+ferocity+healing is celestial and it wouldnt be 10k not even with pve/wvw gear. A lot of games have critical healing it just makes sense that if dmg can be multiplied by crits healing should be able to do the same.

PhDusk.2590:

xDudisx.5914:

IMO the devs should lead the class balance towards the NA meta. After 2 years people still keep running thief+mesmer. They need to make comp without this 2 classes more viable too. Either nerfing mesmer and thief or buffing everything else. This game is an mmorpg, the fights should focus more in people fighting at points and not in just run fast force numerical advantage in one point kill enemy in 5s and keep moving around. If people wanted a game with everyone 1shoting everyone killing the enemy in 3seconds we would be playing a FPS like cod or bf.

Long fights with combo field, finishers, group support and class sinergy are much for fun than watch enemys that drop in less than 10s to a thief or shatter mesmer.

Please stop, we already went though the bunker meta. Please no more.

And what do you suggest? Everyone 1 shoting everyone? Maybe we also shouldnt have armor and the only stat available should be zerker. I support 100% the game moving away from zerkers and going in the celestial/bunker direction.

Create time gated itens. Maybe complete “insert number here” times the dungeon to unlock a weapon skin or an entire armor set. Make it unlock able via achievement we dont need even more currencies in the game.

If you in this 2 years they have been slowly buffing healing specs. A sigil that stacks up to +12.5% healing, a rune that gives 10%, traits like aquatic benevolence… I dont see how crit healing would be a problem, since most classes with healing power have low crit chance and in most cases no investment in crit dmg. The crit would only work on allies not yourself celestial ele would be the same in 1v1.

This change would’t result in a clasic holy trinity, actually that is impossible without having a decent aggro system. Even if that was created it wouldn’t be better than zerker. So I dont see why are people scared of healing lol.

IMO the devs should lead the class balance towards the NA meta. After 2 years people still keep running thief+mesmer. They need to make comp without this 2 classes more viable too. Either nerfing mesmer and thief or buffing everything else. This game is an mmorpg, the fights should focus more in people fighting at points and not in just run fast force numerical advantage in one point kill enemy in 5s and keep moving around. If people wanted a game with everyone 1shoting everyone killing the enemy in 3seconds we would be playing a FPS like cod or bf.

Long fights with combo field, finishers, group support and class sinergy are much for fun than watch enemys that drop in less than 10s to a thief or shatter mesmer.

The cd reduction on retreat is awesome. Improves zerker guards in dungeons.

Almost every single team in all Anet’s tourneys run a shatter mesmer. The best duelist class shoundt have so much mobility (portal,blink). The imune spam via evades was nerfed on thief. Now is time to nerf the imune spam via shatter F4/sword 2.

People claimed a nerf for hambows because everyone was running 1. Why dont we see the same with mesmer? They are present in the great majority of top teams. Be easy or hard to play shouldnt be taken in account for balance, they need to balance around how the top players perform with the class.

Suggestions: increase the base damage on F1 but reduce the way it scale with power. Increase base dmg but shatter cant crit. Change F4 from imune to -50% dmg, or only imune to direct dmg (like endure pain). Put a cast time on staff #2 (only insta cast weapon teleport in game? ).

My suggestion is to add critical healing to the game. The critical % and multiplier could be the normal critical chance and dmg. It should only crit when healing other players, not yourself (or would destroy the pvp balance). Also shouldnt work with the character healing skill (#6)

In pve it wouldnt affect the meta, because zerker would still be the fastest. In spvp would change the balance very much because the ones that focus in healing power normally have base crit chance.

Adding this to the game wouldn’t create any new meta or broken builds would just create + diversity and open the possibilities build diversity. Would also create a possible use for Magi gear.

It’s sad that the best team couldn’t play the tourney finals. They had one of the only creative comps, not running no guardian.

In my opinion rangers are far from been the biggest problem in spvp. Before even think in nerf rangers Anet needs to first nerf mesmer. People have been runing the same copy-paste shatter build for almost 2 years because how broken it is. If you put a mesmer to fight a 1v1 in open field without having to hold a point they will kite forever and destroy even most of the meta builds. They have the same problem as the sw+dg thief before last patch’s nerf: imune spam. This allow them to be zerker and still survive too much.

Ranger is just annoying and easy to play. Mesmer can be harder to play but is more broken than ranger. Just look at today’s tourney. In the final 2/10 players were shatter mesmer, the only ranger there was not even playing the build that people QQ about (zerker-bow).

Most of the major wvw guilds in DB were tanking last week in order to avoid going to gold league. They even had a meting on the DB teamspeak to organize the tanking. People who opposed got kicked from the TS. So I think SBI will go to gold league. If maguma drop next week I think DB will play dead 1 more week to avoid going up.

I would like to see DB on gold league.

You seem to work under the rather naive belief that WvW necessarily equal mindless zerg. It can be that but for many it doesnt since they roam (solo or not) and that mean far greater risk than anything spvp can popose.

I did not say roaming is bad. Actually I was mostly talking about people that blob around in their full bunkers and think that what they are doing is skillful and hard .In my opinion roamers are the light in the end of tunnel for wvw. But I disagree with you when you say it has more risk. You can face more enemy in wvw BUT you are not “forced” to defend a point. I sometimes play full zerker thief in wvw and find it easier than in spvp. If things go bad you can escape almost everytime with shadowstep or stleath and reset a fight if you get outnumbered by a lot.

The thief is the best example.
As you might read in PVP subforum, most successfull WWW thief roamers were totally uneffectuve in PvP.

The main difference is that in spvp if you go stealth and reset the fight and run away you are losing the fight becuase of points. In wvw as long as you are alive is ok. The spvp meta is the sw+dg evade spam while wvw is heavy stealth.

Mesmer is already the best/op duelist class if you dont fight with people siting in a point. Thief one of the only natural viable counter is getting a nerf to sword and pistol offhand at the class balance. No need for more thief nerf. Might as well rename the mesmer class for Duelists if it get even more buffs.

Easier said than done. Go ahead play 10 team queue tourneys win 50% of them with 3v5 and I will be convinced skill is more important than numbers.

Sw+dagger evade spam will be nerfed at the class balance. Will still be viable but we wont see so many people running the build.

Anything with more than 5 players in this game becomes a stack fest. Because of how aoe works in this game. The “large gap” is that some have people with right build/class/gear and others dont or are just 1 guy that pops up a tag and get pugs to follow him. Also you think that your own opinion is a fact. If it was so serious it would be a official game mode.

Right GvG is as serious as people doing a jumping puzzle competition lols.

The topic is becoming a chat. The challenge is up waiting for someone to complete hahaha. If you wanna keep talking send a forum message.

1)Again the guy trys a personal atk instead of using facts. I trasnfered from kaineng with my frieds to DB more than 1 year ago. I dont play only with necro I play with all the 8 classes. Actually necro is my almost only spvp guy.
2)Not everyone is running on big groups most of the time. Roaming you will get less kills than 1 guy spaming staff 1 with a guard
3) The difference is that in spvp you need to active time your skills and dodges to counter enemy. In wvw you are in the mid a people stacking droping tons of aoe. In the mid of 5 the reactions of 1 can change the fight. In a group of 20 you are facetanking stuff becuase of stats and the “tactic” blast a water field, so hard.
4)As you said the wvw server rank is based on coverage not skill.
5) DB was on the T2 a few weeks ago.
6) “arrogant spvpers” you are the one saying I know nothing just becuase I disagree with you.

I believe stealth is ok, because if he is invisible you are capping the point. The broken build is the evade spam sw+dg not the heavy stealth one.

But I do agree that Moa should be reworked. You can dodge, yes you can but that doesn’t make a skill less op. Some people like to use the argument of “if you can dodge is not op” or “l2p” for everything. By the same logic they could give all classes an AoE 1shot skill with 1second cast time and it wouldnt be op becuase you can dodge it.

warriorjrd.8695:

xDudisx.5914:

warriorjrd.8695:

xDudisx.5914:

So you think that a place where you can have gear advantage, siege, use -40% condi foods and are able to run is harder than spvp where people have that same gear options and no stat advantage? Have you ever notice that the top 10% of the wvw players are in most cases the roamers that come from spvp? Even the most mindless meta hambow is probably better than half of the WvWers. I have played both spvp and wvw long enough to know that wvw is by far easier to play even when following a “elite” guild. Is all about facing bad enemy and having stat+food advantage.

I dont see how stack ,use stability and blast water/fire field can be harder than spvp. I do think that it require skill for the Commander because he is the only taking the active decisions, the others are just following stacking and using stuff when requested.

As somebody already mentioned, get 15 top tpvp players and have them go up against a top GvG guild and then come talk to me about “stat advantages”. Even with the differences between asc and exotic (which are quite minimal) 25 people wiping 50 has more to do with skill than what gear they are wearing.

It is not just exo to ascended, you should consider: extra 250vit, 100 power/100condi from rank skill (not all the pugs are running that), 250 power from bloodlust, and the food -40%.

The group of 50 could kill 25 if running the same builds and items and be on ts.

The challenge is up, go do team queues 3 v 5 and get a good win % with less numbers if you think numbers and gear are irrelevant.

Would actually be nice to see the top 2 teams from Anets last tourneys destroying groups in a 10v10 (of course it should be inside an spvp map to avoid stat advantag of wvw). People on this topic talking kitten about spvp but “gvg” is not even a official game mode.

I have already told you why 3 vs 5 is stupid, but you seemed to have ignored that. When it comes to conquest if you can have two extra guys you will obviously win. A great example of this is how WvW works. The server with the most coverage, not skill, wins the match. It would be the same for Tpvp if one team was down by two guys. When it comes to deathmatch, numbers, while they make a difference, are not as crucial. Anybody who has played wvw for a while has the guard stacks, it’s not that hard to get, you act as though it’s some kind of achievement when it really isn’t. Bloodlust too, everybody usually runs that, and you can get that in spvp too, so idk why you even brought it up.

You just really don’t know what you’re talking about at all, even if you say you do I can tell you don’t by what you type. The group of fifty could obviously wipe the smaller group, but explain to me why groups of 50 people who are all on TS consistently fail at killing coordinated guild groups. And I can see you’re another one of those egotistical spvpers that is all “GvG isn’t even a real game mode”, who cares? People still do it whether “real” or not, it doesn’t really make a difference.

If 15 tpvpers came to OS with full asc gear and everything so there was no stat advantages and fought one of the top GvG guilds, they would get smashed. Tpvpers are used to the small scale fighting around points, the majority of the builds they would think of using wouldn’t be viable in a GvG setting. I’m not saying Tpvpers are bad, but tpvp and GvG are two very different things, and just because you’re good at one, does not mean you’re even remotely good at the other, this works both ways.

Like you say right away you play spvp more than wvw and after what I’m reading here I can understand you have no idea about GvG guilds or wvw fights in general. Please go back to your “hotjoin” and make yourself feel good by killing randoms.

1) in spvp the matches are faster and you cant get stacks so easy like wvw wjere you can get your entire group with 25 from the past fights,
2) I played enoght wvw to know what I am talking about
3) You say I dont have knowledge about what I say, I could say the same for you. Use arguments no personal atks
4) Probably those 50 were not with the right build/comp.
5) Even in spvp where we dont have gear+stat+food advantage over the enemy the right build somethimes is enough to determine who wins imagine in wvw a game mode that is not meant to be balanced, numbers+right gear/build > anything.
6) If you say that the skill is involved in use the right build and have the right class I would agree.
7) Fun fact to cite: they are fixing the exploiting meteor+tornado and lich form+well, so giving more power to higher numbers

I was a member of DB and Kaineng.

warriorjrd.8695:

xDudisx.5914:

So you think that a place where you can have gear advantage, siege, use -40% condi foods and are able to run is harder than spvp where people have that same gear options and no stat advantage? Have you ever notice that the top 10% of the wvw players are in most cases the roamers that come from spvp? Even the most mindless meta hambow is probably better than half of the WvWers. I have played both spvp and wvw long enough to know that wvw is by far easier to play even when following a “elite” guild. Is all about facing bad enemy and having stat+food advantage.

I dont see how stack ,use stability and blast water/fire field can be harder than spvp. I do think that it require skill for the Commander because he is the only taking the active decisions, the others are just following stacking and using stuff when requested.

As somebody already mentioned, get 15 top tpvp players and have them go up against a top GvG guild and then come talk to me about “stat advantages”. Even with the differences between asc and exotic (which are quite minimal) 25 people wiping 50 has more to do with skill than what gear they are wearing.

It is not just exo to ascended, you should consider: extra 250vit, 100 power/100condi from rank skill (not all the pugs are running that), 250 power from bloodlust, and the food -40%.

The group of 50 could kill 25 if running the same builds and items and be on ts.

The challenge is up, go do team queues 3 v 5 and get a good win % with less numbers if you think numbers and gear are irrelevant.

Would actually be nice to see the top 2 teams from Anets last tourneys destroying groups in a 10v10 (of course it should be inside an spvp map to avoid stat advantag of wvw). People on this topic talking kitten about spvp but “gvg” is not even a official game mode.

DeadlySynz.3471:

When it comes to WvW, the groups (big or small) whom are willing to stand in the red circles more will always lose. Doesn’t matter how skilled they are.

The only real skill or challenge I think falls on the commanders.. knowing when and where to strike, and knowing when and where to back down.

100% agree with you on the commander part

So you think that a place where you can have gear advantage, siege, use -40% condi foods and are able to run is harder than spvp where people have that same gear options and no stat advantage? Have you ever notice that the top 10% of the wvw players are in most cases the roamers that come from spvp? Even the most mindless meta hambow is probably better than half of the WvWers. I have played both spvp and wvw long enough to know that wvw is by far easier to play even when following a “elite” guild. Is all about facing bad enemy and having stat+food advantage.

I dont see how stack ,use stability and blast water/fire field can be harder than spvp. I do think that it require skill for the Commander because he is the only taking the active decisions, the others are just following stacking and using stuff when requested.

I spvp more than wvw (mostlly hotjoin/soloqueu). When I go to wvw there is always someone saying that “skill” is the only thing that matters and how they can beat higher numbers ( 99% unorganized group of pugs).

SO HERE IS THE CHALLENGE: go play spvp team queue with 3 players and see what is going to be your victory %.

With a ratio of 3 to 5 the enemy has less than twice your numbers. By the “skill is everything” and “numbers are not important” statements you should have no problem to win. After losing all or almost all the matches one will probably come to the conclusion that numbers are important and you cant win stuff with much less numbers without having one of the next:

a) very unorganized enemy:

Enemy that only care about staying alive and will leave the zerg at any signal of danger for them, upscale, people that just want the exp or achievements, etc…

b)gear/build comp advantage :

You see that on hotjoins when people are running builds that are so bad that you can kill 2 or 3 if you are running the meta builds

final note:
=>not saying skill is useless just stating that numbers do really matter.

=>after tornado/lich form exploit fixes in 2 weeks numbers will be even more important

=> to get in a team queue 3v5 just get 5 players and make 2 stay at your base

terminatorkobold.6031:

A fix not hurting PvE is important. As a PvE player i have had enough stupid nerf due to conquest PvP already. So please don’t make me write that the best solution would be to scrap tPvP. :-)

I have zerker characters with pve meta stuff to speed run dungeons. I actually find that nerfing/fixing might stacking on spvp would have a great side effect on pve becuase right now is too easy to stack 25 stacks of might.

In the other hand the suggestion to reduce the base duration to 15 wouldn’t hurt zerker dungeons because if you are running the right builds the great majority of the bosses die in less than 10s.

As for non-zerker groups this really wont change much because they normally dont even stack might.

manveruppd.7601:

xDudisx.5914:

Summarizing: war is ok the problem is the might stacking making celestial have too much dmg

Well, you say that, but if you had 3 celestial rangers or necros wearing Strength Runes they wouldn’t be getting to 25 stacks within seconds… It’s only when you have warriors, engis, and eles that you can do that, with warriors being by far the fastest at might-stacking.

“ONLY” war, engi and ele. ONLY 3 out of 8 classes this is almost 50% of the classes in game. And you are thinking in them alone. I class can give the fire, other the blast when more people are fighting. The problem is the might stacking celestial with fire field blasts.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

manveruppd.7601:

xDudisx.5914:

Nerf the war class won’t solve the problem, since other classes can do it too.

No class can do it as well as hambow specifically: higher uptime on fire field than even elementalists, 2 blast finishers per weapon set, faster weapon set swapping than other professions. Plus the effects are multiplied by the duration increase of the runes, meaning they gain MORE BENEFIT from Strength runes than any other profession.

that is working as intended, because hambow:
- cannot summon illusions
- cannot enter stealth by themselves
- cannot death shroud
- cannot summon minions
- cannot prevent their boons from being removed

seriously, stop complaining because you refuse to play professions that remove boons easily.

Of course warior doent have that but it doesnt mean something is balanced or op just becuase and apple is not an orange. I am not complaining about war itself. I said the problem is the celestial might stacking in general. Btw war doesn’t have the stuff you cited but if has stuff that make it up for it, like high hp, heavy armor, adrenaline, etc..

I also play all classes. This is one of the reasons I see how inbalanced some things are.

Summarizing: war is ok the problem is the might stacking making celestial have too much dmg

manveruppd.7601:

xDudisx.5914:

Nerf the war class won’t solve the problem, since other classes can do it too.

No class can do it as well as hambow specifically: higher uptime on fire field than even elementalists, 2 blast finishers per weapon set, faster weapon set swapping than other professions. Plus the effects are multiplied by the duration increase of the runes, meaning they gain MORE BENEFIT from Strength runes than any other profession.

Actually the hambow has 20% less boon duration than ele and only 1 blast per weapon set bow 3 and hammer F1