Guild Wars 2

Seera.5916:

Because not everyone likes dueling in the open world and the community that typically brings along.

Plenty of games have a flag option for duels, including games that had far better communities than GW2, like LOTRO.

BlackBeard.2873:

Courtyard’s biggest weakness is that it was designed for 2v2 or 3v3, then randomly thrown into a 5v5 mode. If it had its own queue to support the right team-size you would see a LOT less QQ.

I watched the final of a 2v2 tourney on Courtyard the other day, it was a mes + engy vs warrior + ele, it was incredibly boring as it went on forever as all that happened was if the mes/engy got in trouble or failed to burst, they would stealth reset and run round the map (they even got out of combat twice) until their cooldowns were up again, the war + ele would do much the same thing if they got trouble, no stealth, but just run round and round until their super sustain had healed them up again, and cooldowns were off.

Zephyra.4709:

When people complain about Courtyard yet it’s the only TRUE actual legit PvP map in the entire game aka no lame PvE stuff. Wot.

I wish there were more maps like CY, just not so unwaveringly clustered/tiny spaced.

It is no more PvP than anything else, the ‘v’ stands for ‘versus’, that is something that is not exclusive to direct combat against another player. Beyond that it is “lame PvE stuff” and objectives that increase the skill cap, all courtyard is, is a teamfight, which you get on most PvP modes, you just get other stuff aswell that increase the skill cap with things like more map awareness, rotations, etc.

Junkpile.7439:

Haha that is edited video. Why you don’t show your losses? You wiped in two first fights because you thought that you can split your lvl80 zerg and win against upscaled karma train. If old red guard members win against upscaled karma train with 8 man it doesn’t mean that FSP WvW players can win with 40 man. You didn’t even show how you sieged our keep like hour and still managed wipe in north gate.

LOL, there were plenty of lvl 80s, that you fight like upscales, is well… Video does show a wipe, after a EoTM reset, when you try hard with full blob, but then that was element of surprise, and it was back to you wiping time and again as per normal.

As for your keep, no idea, I got bored and left, though it is no surprise that you PvE boys decide to go and bunker up, hiding behind your arrow carts after getting wiped so many times open field.

P.S – The crying in whispers was hilarious

Junkpile.7439:

FSP tried to karma train yesterday in EotM, but rage quited because they couldn’t take our keep. No idea how they manage cap anything in normal WvW.

FSP spent time collecting bags and tears from the SFR karma train yesterday, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53C0771WPIk , had to swap maps though as you PvEers kept rage quitting.

dancingmonkey.4902:

Given that conditions went through massive changes in functionality this past June 23rd, I do not feel the “its been the same since launch, for three years” argument point is the best route to go.

How many times have your tested it since Junes changes?

They still work the same, so rather than making guesses and coming up with fallacious arguments about changes to other things in June, rather than this specific thing, go test it out.

dancingmonkey.4902:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Condition_Duration

“Inversely, traits, runes, and food, that detracts from condition duration, is based on the duration of the condition after all of those additives of duration increasing food, traits, runes, and sigils, and not just its base duration”

LOL, which was just “magically” added to the wiki entry a couple of hours ago (“Revision as of 15:32, 9 September 2015”) after Paavotar bought up the wiki entry and explained you were wrong, that is pretty desperate.

dancingmonkey.4902:

zinkz.7045:

dancingmonkey.4902:

That is incorrect. The food decreasing incoming conditions does not apply only to the base condition. it effects the entire duration, counting food, traits, and sigils of the condition appliers.

Long story short, negative duration food has more benefit for a player then the condition duration increasing food.

Wrong, plus and minus food both work off the base duration of the condition applied by the skill, they are of equal benefit.

Have any actual evidence of this? The wiki page someone linked suggest otherwise.

Go test it out, it is not up to me to do the work for you, that three years in you still don’t understand how basics of the game work is your problem, not mine. (and no the wiki page does not suggest otherwise, it states it exactly as I said -“Condition duration from various sources increases (and decreases) additively as a percentage increase on the base condition duration”)

dancingmonkey.4902:

That is incorrect. The food decreasing incoming conditions does not apply only to the base condition. it effects the entire duration, counting food, traits, and sigils of the condition appliers.

Long story short, negative duration food has more benefit for a player then the condition duration increasing food.

Wrong, plus and minus food both work off the base duration of the condition applied by the skill, they are of equal benefit.

Jester.1236:

Once again
Balancing WvW does not mean….
Balancing people who want to duel 1v1 in a battleground game.

As if WvW is balanced at all… A game mode where for example a class like engy has been pretty much unwanted in large groups for 3 years and where for every mesmer in a zerg you have at least 6 guards.

P.S – I guess you missed it, but just because it is a battleground does not mean that is somehow for large groups only, when they put in bloodlust for example they stated that was for small group / roamers.

Omie.4519:

I run full glass in spvp, wvw and pve and never run out of buttons and escapes. When we get our hammers the trolling and joy will be endless. Seriously it sounds like you should roll a guardian or a girlfriend specced ele.

People have their own favourite playstyles, and sure cleric engy is not optimum, but then neither is you playing full glass in PvP, something that basically has not been “meta” in PvP for three years because glass engy is inferior to glass other classes and inferior to other engy builds, so to use your “logic” sounds like you should be playing mesmer.

If you actually think it is a duel then the answer is you don’t interrupt it, though I guess in some circumstances I can understand it, if for example the guy from the other server had been ganking people coming from spawn/waypoint in zerg builds with his buddies earlier.

You might also consider there can be consequences, especially if you are a PPT hero or you don’t want your guild raids interrupted, a few of us had duels interrupted several times the other week by a couple of PPT heroes on the server, we stopped defending camps, stopped calling out scout reports, etc, the tears from the PPT heroes as they lost all their fully upgraded camps were lovely.

And I’ve seen much stronger than that, people that have whispered the opponents when to attack keeps, people switching to other accounts in the same matchup and then ganking the guy the interrupted the duel all night, people wasting supply in keeps, etc.

Really the lesson is pretty simple, if you want to be a kitten and ruin some other peoples fun (when you really don’t need to), you might get some of that back.

Silly people, solo queues are only for games that are total failures like LoL or CS:GO, where as PvP success stories like Rift mix pre-mades and solo players, so obviously Anet are trying to emulate the massive success of Rift PvP.

bloodletting wolf.2837:

There is also the myth that condition builds only need one stat. Precision and condition duration are needed to really make a condi build shine.

Not really the same though is it, you can get ample condi duration from food, stones, runes, sigils, etc, up to something like 75% for all condies and something like 105% for specific conditions like burning, so you don’t need to sacrifice a stat on your armour to get it.

As for precision, again not really, condi builds are only reliant on crit hit to proc traits every X seconds or to proc sigils like torment, so you can get away with having much lower crit chance than you need for most power builds, so can still build with mostly dire and a little bit of rabid, when I play condi engy I have something like 24k HP & 3.1k armour and about 25% crit to proc things, beyond that certain condi builds do not require any crit and can roll face even more with full dire, trapper ranger does not require crit for example.

Hence dire (or dire with a bit of rabid) is a total joke in terms of balance, it is low risk and high reward, which is why it got thrown out of PvP pretty sharply when they initially put it in there, but apparently stuff that is considered too broken OP for PvP is fine for WvW…

You realise that this game is never going to be well balanced, you can either have variety or you can have balance, it is as simple as that, everything in this game provides variety, the trait system (even though it is more restricted now), the numerous weapon options, numerous stat options with no class restrictions, a zillion sigils/runes and the design that a class can pretty much perform any role or a combination of roles.

Zanther Deathbringer.4762:

So you really are confused. You dont think tis op, but you want it nerfed anyways…

Not at all, that condie builds are weak in alrge scale is down to class balance / game being designed for tPvP, doesn’t alter the 40% food is too strong.

Zanther Deathbringer.4762:

Wait, now im confused. First its food. Then its not food. Then gear combo’s. Then its food again…..

Something tells me youre just trolling at this point.

No dear, when I say it is a “combination of things” I mean just that, and part of that is the food being too strong, not sure why that is so difficult to grasp.

Zanther Deathbringer.4762:

Condition builds will not win you large scale battles, which is what WvW is designed for. Food is not the problem as many condition based builds are not considered overpowered because of it. Only a few select builds are considered to strong because of food, thus the class itself is probably the problem (if it should even be considered it a problem). Aoe builds are considered the best for large scale battles, maybe we should nerf power food now?

I agree condie builds will not win large scale battles, and yes that has nothing to do with food. Though you know what food melee uses – lemongrass (-40% condi duration), you seem to have missed it, but I’ve specified more than once that is both the +40% & the -40% foods that are OP, I’m fine with nerfing the food they use in large scale battles.

Zanther Deathbringer.4762:

Unless you can honestly say with a straight face that every class that has access to condition damage somehow becomes magically overpowered with the use of this single item (in which case you’re delusional), then you have lost and you need to admit it.

In WvW when it comes to roaming, it is more of a combination of things, Dire stats for example give a ridiculous defensive advantage to condi builds, so ridiculous that dire was considered too imbalanced to be allowed in PvP, it is then when you add +40% food on top of that, +10% from toxic sharpening stone, and at times things like malice (again considered too broken for PvP), givers, etc that condi becomes silly OP when roaming.

Now for the food specifically it really is the only consumable where people often think they must use it (be it -40% or +40%), and the reason for that is the ridiculous 40% figure, the power equivalent is 10% (seaweed salad), the condition specific food only adds 15%, 40% is simply ridiculous it is far too strong.

coglin.1867:

I am confused. How is my explaining what a word actually means, rhetoric?

Empty Rhetoric – “Language that is elaborate, pretentious, insincere, or intellectually vacuous”.

coglin.1867:

Can you highlight a post where I made such a statement?

You appear confused. You stated builds using a specific damage type (condition damage) has over powered damage outputs.

If two builds have equivalent defensive capability, unless you can offer proof that one of the builds has an advantage in the aspect of damage output over the other one, your simply blowing smoke and kicking opinions around. I find it odd that you find that “hilarious”

I am curious about how damage out put is meaningless in this game. Can you explain that to me? Because your agenda here, appears to be to claim one damage out put as doing more damage then the other. Your very confusing in the contradiction of your statements.

I said damage output calculations are meaningless in PvP, they show nothing of value, if I play condi engy my blowtorch from short range on crit with incendiary ammo, the bleed trait, and the flamethrower toolbelt skill does if I remember correctly about 37k over 16 seconds, now what does it actually do in practice, when does someone cleanse, how many condies are covering the burn, does the opponent have -40% food, melandru runes, etc, how difficult is it to apply, is it easier or harder than whatever I compare it to, etc, It is not PvE where you stack in place and max your DPS against dumb AI and the same mobs/boss over and over.

Zanther Deathbringer.4762:

zinkz.7045:

Zanther Deathbringer.4762:

But tell me more about how condition necros are overpowered because of food, despite the almost universal agreement that its the opposite.

Perhaps you should start a new thread you seem to want to discuss condi necro rather than the food.

I dont need too, its all the proof I need to show you that your argument is flawed.

You want to show my argument is flawed when in the WvW section of the site you brought into this there is a roaming condi necro using the aforementioned food and it is considered “great”, okay…

Or is it that you think that because cele necro is strong in the current PvP meta and condi necro is not that somehow the current state of 5v5 PvP conquest mode has any bearing on what is strong in WvW, hint – it doesn’t.

Zanther Deathbringer.4762:

But tell me more about how condition necros are overpowered because of food, despite the almost universal agreement that its the opposite.

Perhaps you should start a new thread you seem to want to discuss condi necro rather than the food.

coglin.1867:

zinkz.7045:

Or for the actual reality, which is increasing your condi duration of all condies by a massive 40% is broken as kitten, hence is mandatory.

I feel you either mandatory doesn’t actually mean what you think it means, or are over exaggerating with ridiculous hyperbole.

I see you are off with your typical empty rhetoric.

coglin.1867:

If it is broken, then please post your damage calculations. Mine show that condition builds do not particularly do more damage then direct damage builds. Less in many cases.

If your going to suggest it is so over powered, can you post the damage break down please?

That you think PvP works simply on the basis of damage calculations is hilarious, but is no surprise, if you want meaningless damage calculations do them yourself, though quite how you would do them is a mystery, if I hit someone with blowtorch on engi, how do you decide how much damage it does, at what point do they have a cleanse?

coglin.1867:

A single individual posted a build somewhere, and a single individual “claimed” it was mandatory. I do not see how some random person who posted a build, serves as evidence for anything.

Zanther started introducing metabattle as “evidence”, it is just rather amusing that the WvW signet version uses the said food and describes it as “Absolutely mandatory”.

Zanther Deathbringer.4762:

zinkz.7045:

Well I’m not sure how the backline wells thing is relevant I assume we are talking roaming/small scale not zergs, but perhaps you should look at cele signet build because guess what food it uses -

I’m going to say that after looking at it for about 5 seconds, that it has no food listed, and you fail.

You must be thinking of the signet roamer build that requires (absolutely mandatory) condition food, which is exactly what I said earlier about not all conditions being them problem, and that is all in the class balance.

Yes I was talking about the signet roamer build.

Zanther Deathbringer.4762:

You essentially agreed with both people that you disagreed with now. Thank you for your time.

Not idea what you are on about, I’ve done no such thing.

Zanther Deathbringer.4762:

Actually, its just like you said. If condition food is mandatory for this, it means conditions are indeed underpowered and need a buff

Or for the actual reality, which is increasing your condi duration of all condies by a massive 40% so condie cleansing cannot keep up is broken as kitten, hence is mandatory.

Zanther Deathbringer.4762:

Except if condition foods and runes were a problem, their build would be listed up there along with the ones I linked.

They arent.

Well I’m not sure how the backline wells thing is relevant I assume we are talking roaming/small scale not zergs, but perhaps you should look at signet roamer build because guess what food it uses – koi cake and master tuning crystal, and guess what it describes the koi cake as “Absolutely mandatory.”.

I’d also point out that on Reddit the other week someone complained about the lack of WvW builds on metabattle and the guy who runs it stated they simply don’t get many builds submitted for WvW.

Zanther Deathbringer.4762:

I actually recall them stating WvW would not influence class balance during beta interviews. However, those are not that easy to find anymore.

I don’t disagree that they pay very little attention to WvW when it comes to class balance, I just think people misquote the whole WvW is unbalanced thing, when I seem to remember it was about population / being outnumbered, maybe I remember wrong, either way I find it strange that people quote it as it they think it is a good thing that class balance should be ignored in the part of the game they play.

coglin.1867:

zinkz.7045:

coglin.1867:

What are you talking about WvW balance for? It was stated before, during, and after release that professions, builds, and damage types were never intended to be balanced.

No it wasn’t, it was stated WvW was not meant to be balanced in relation to population, not class balance.

Got a link to support that specification you are claiming?

Got a link to support the specification that it includes class balance?

coglin.1867:

What are you talking about WvW balance for? It was stated before, during, and after release that professions, builds, and damage types were never intended to be balanced.

No it wasn’t, it was stated WvW was not meant to be balanced in relation to population, not class balance.

coglin.1867:

zinkz.7045:

Wrong, I don’t think it is supposed to be equal, it isn’t equal in PvP, I think that making the rock/paper/scissors far more extreme with food, stones, dire gear, etc, creates moronically bad and boring gameplay.

If you think it is or is supposed to be “rock/paper/scissors” then you are the one who is wrong.

10 pure condition builds attacking a group of 10 anything will do garbage for damage. Too much coordinated AoE cleansing and condition conversion.

That is not balance. Anet, please increase condition duration food to 100% please.

If you don’t understand this game is very rock/paper/scissors then that is your failing, go watch Helseth when he talks through one of his PvP games and you’ll see how he describes how which players (and their respective class) should rotate where, to create favourable matchups, or how player X made a stupid decision to 1v1 class X on their class as their class is at a big disadvantage in that 1v1 – ‘rock, paper’scissors’.

As for your 10, like I said before game is balanced for 5v5 tPvP conquest mode, WvW balance is a joke in every aspect, if you try and condi a group of 10 guards/eles/warriors in zerg builds for example sure it is ineffective, because the game is not balanced for that amount of healing / condi cleanse in a large group, likewise in 1v1 other than against a tiny proportion of builds like certain ele builds, a condi build becomes much too effective because cleanses stay the same as PvP, whilst + condi duration can be increased by silly amounts and to a greater extent than it can be reduced and you have stats like dire that were thrown out of PvP because they are broken OP.

All things like +/- 40% duration do is make an already poorly balanced game mode, even more imbalanced, which is why they don’t have this crap in PvP.

Zanther Deathbringer.4762:

You mean the topic of PvEWvW’ers seem to think that a food item thats been in game for over 3 years is suddenly a problem instead of looking at the classes themselves? You know, that big build change we just got?

You must be new, there have been been complaint on condi duration food long before the last big patch.

Zanther Deathbringer.4762:

Except there is no imbalance, or else condition builds would be rampant in sPvP. The only ones that think so are zerker running classes thinking they can 1v1 builds that are specially made for 1v1, are not as good at this game as they think they are. Because condition builds are only good for small scale, and garbage for large scale. You are blaming a food item that has never been a problem before now, instead of looking at the balance issues that the build change to classes we just got. Try aiming your rage at condition rangers, you might have more luck.

Again you quote something and seem to be responding to something else… Also there is no “rage” I haven’t bother to roam much in WvW for a long time, the issues go beyond condi food, their is huge imbalance in disengage, it isn’t real open PvP so most players on the map are in zergs/raids/sat in stuctures, the WvW playerbase is bad (as in it is very PvE, rather than PvP, which means a lot of running away /avoiding fights), and so on, really it is pretty bad game for roaming, and the one thing it has going for it – small maps, is going away with the expansion.

Zanther Deathbringer.4762:

Or how about before they nerfed condi necro in reactin to dhumfire, when back then most necros in PvP played condi, you still need your 40% food then?

No, because you cant and never have been able to use food in spvp.

Whoosh… The point which you clearly missed is earlier you claimed your necro needed condi food to compensate because necro condi builds are not meta in PvP and therefore weak, yet condi necro was once the default choice in PvP, so did you not use condi food in WvW when most necros played condi necro in PvP?

Zanther Deathbringer.4762:

And yet the currently strongest build

http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Necromancer_-_Celestial_Signet

http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Necromancer_-_Wells_Backline

are power builds.

Which has nothing to do with what you quoted, or do you think I was going on about a tPvP build with perplexity runes, condi food, etc…

Tongku.5326:

your idea of balance is flawed in 2 very basic ways.

1. You think its supposed to be equal. It isnt. Its supposed to be rock / paper / scissors. So you will always have some builds that will always right down annihilate other builds in a given situation. For example, conditions, overperforming in very small scale and 1v1, underperforming in group vs group. This is the reason for it.

Wrong, I don’t think it is supposed to be equal, it isn’t equal in PvP, I think that making the rock/paper/scissors far more extreme with food, stones, dire gear, etc, creates moronically bad and boring gameplay.

Tongku.5326:

2. You are focused on 1 v 1. the game is balanced on Team comp vs Team comp, with things such as venomshare or team cleansing or team aegis come into play. It is up to you to make sure you are running the correct 5 man team comp and going against anotehr 5 man for it to be balanced. In addition, it is also your responsibility, that you run with people who know when to pop that aegis on you, or cleanse you, not just themselves.

The game is “balanced” on tPvP conquest team comps, WvW balance is a joke in pretty much every aspect, condie is a fine example, in 1v1 it is too strong, but when facing a melee ball of tanky guards/warriors spamming AOE heals & cleanse, it is too weak, but again that just takes me back to my point, adding ridiculously strong consumables often makes the balance differences more extreme.

Tongku.5326:

Going back to foods, I would really like to see more foods rather then less, so the rock / paper / scissors aspect of the game is brought even more to the forefront and we have better choices then just -40% + 40% condi duration.

Things that come to my mind:

-40% damage taken while under effect of stun, daze, chill, cripple, immobilize
+40% damage dealt to targets that are stunned , chilled, crippled or immobilized
+40% damage dealt to targets under effect of swiftness
+70 vitality, can not be critically hit
+70 healing power, +40% regeneration duration
+70 toughness, +40% protection duration

etc. etc.

make the gameplay really chaotic and interesting.

Which to me would make the gameplay even more skilless, cheesy and boring.

Zanther Deathbringer.4762:

Care to point out any viable condition necro builds for spvp? I only see power based ones. Yet, I see at least 2 classes that can build full condition without food. Hmm….

So yes, take away the condition food. I’ll expect a +40% duration increase to all necro applied conditions in return.

You seem to be crying about your perceived status of necros rather than addressing the actual topic, I realize logic isn’t your strength, but if two other classes can function well in PvP as full condi then adding 40% food, 10% sharpening stone, 10% givers weapon, dire armour, etc on top of that does exactly what I said , it imbalances the game further. Or how about before they nerfed condi necro in reactin to dhumfire, when back then most necros in PvP played condi, you still need your 40% food then?

I haven’t played my necro since the big patch, but you know what I have played the perplexity, +100% condi duration, dire/rabid mix, etc in the past and it was faceroll, 90% of opponents classes/builds were at a clear disadvantage, because cleanses do not magically scale to that new duration, and as much as people can reduce condi duration in WvW with -40% food, and runes, that sort of build can increase it further, but I guess PvE/WvW bads need their crutch…

Zanther Deathbringer.4762:

zinkz.7045:

Threads about condie food are not a new thing, beyond that things have got worse due to power creep, for example you didn’t have toxic stones giving +10% at the start of the game.

I’m pretty sure I’ve been using Veggie pizza for almost 3 years now.

No idea how you think that relates to what I wrote.

Zanther Deathbringer.4762:

So wait, which one is it? It is condition application? Or condition food? So youre saying that because 1 thing is overpowered, you should nerf the other instead, thus not fixing the core issue?

No I am saying the game is not balanced in PvP, in WvW that balance is even worse, so then adding silly consumables on top of that just makes imbalances worse, which is not a good thing.

Zanther Deathbringer.4762:

Are you saying anet should balance the game based off how bad people are? The entire PvE side has been ruined by this logic fyi.

The PvE side is “ruined” because they designed and balanced the game around PvP and it didn’t translate well to PvE, then add the dungeons/mobs/boss design are generally also pretty poor, and you have crappy PvE, not sure how that is balancing for “bad people”.

Zanther Deathbringer.4762:

Heres a question. Do you consider condition necros with +condition food to be overpowered? I really want to hear your answer.

I consider =/- 40% condie food to be imbalanced regardless of who is using it, damage skills, cleanse, cc, etc are all designed around PvP and the durations available in there, the sigils, food, stones, etc, in WvW completely break that.

Zanther Deathbringer.4762:

Funny how food hasnt changed at all since the games released, and now all of a sudden its a problem.

Threads about condie food are not a new thing, beyond that things have got worse due to power creep, for example you didn’t have toxic stones giving +10% at the start of the game.

Zanther Deathbringer.4762:

Problem isnt condition food. The problem is condition applications for certain builds. I can understand how this complication would hurt the brains of the “nerf because i dont like” bandwagoners……..DUR I DIED 1V1 IN NT BALANCED FOR 1V1 PVERTRASHWVW, BOARDS SAY CONDITION FOOD BAD….NERF DOMINOS AND PAPA JOHNS!"

To use your phrase I realise that this may “hurt your brain”, but the idea that it is somehow good to increase imbalances further with silly consumables is pretty dumb, but then I guess that is the target market for this game, and to borrow another one of your phrases when 90% of WvW players are “PvE trash Tier” that cannot even interrupt a heal, I guess broken mechanics that carry their lack of ability are more attractive than better, more balanced gameplay.

But then judging by how many people roam now, I guess even most “PvE trash tier” players got bored of the lameness.

Zephyra.4709:

I dunno, I think they should stay. More diversity. It’s easy to counter it by using the opposite version of the food, -40% condi duration, maybe even further with runes etc.

Actually there is no counter using food and runes, for a couple of reasons, firstly in WvW there is far more that can increase condi duration than can reduce it, it is not just a matter of runes + food, there are toxic sharpening stones that give a 10% increase, giver’s weapons that each give a 10% increase, sigil of malice that gives another 10% increase, (considered too OP for PvP), etc, so even if someone uses -40% food and say melandru runes, the amount they can decrease duration by in WvW is significantly less than it can be increased by.

Secondly you have the problem of power builds that rely on chill, cripple & immobilize to land their burst, if they take -40% food to defend against condi builds, then their soft CC becomes laughably short in duration when they face some guy with -40% food, hoelbrak/melandru runes, etc, but then if they take the +40% food so their soft CC works, they are then open to condi builds, they are screwed whichever way they go.

The whole condi duration imbalance in WvW is a fine example of one of the reasons roaming is considered a joke by anyone that actually understands the game, and is one the reasons roaming has gradually died off to the state it is in these days.

Diamond Skin is a terribly designed trait, it is a fine example of the sort of thing a game should not have.

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

Nah. You’re just bad. There’s a reason conditions aren’t meta in high tier PvP. Because power always out performs. A good player knows how to combat and manage conditions. It’s just noob stomp strategy to use condition builds. Low effort.

High tier PvP isn’t solo roaming in WvW… PvP is a 5 man game, and classes/builds that are weak to condi can get support, e.g if you play a mes with little condi clear your guard, ele, thief, etc helps you out.

Nor does PvP have the ridiculous food, stones, sigils, runes and perhaps most importantly stats like Dire which make risk vs reward a joke, that you get in WvW, as they are considered too broken to include in a mode where they actually aim for some sort of balance.

But then roaming in WvW is a joke fullstop, if isn’t some scrub abusing 100% condi duration ticking for 5k-9k burns (damage over time, what a joke) whilst having 3k+ armour and a huge HP pool, then it some other scrub abusing how imbalanced stealth is in WvW (and with the two ultimate in skilless nab builds p/d thief & PU condi mes, scrubs can do both at once!), which is partly why roaming in this game has declined to the pretty sad state it is in now.

Knighthonor.4061:

This is why WvW large scale fights dont suffer from class balance.

You mean WvW where most serious guilds have basically not recruited engineers or rangers for most of the game’s existence, and where as a generalisation 4 classes (GWEN) have made up the vast majority and where the other four are poorly represented, at best restricted to niche roles where at times for every mesmer you have 5 or 6 guards (more if we are talking zergs rather than a guild raid) and to the extrreme where for most of the game it has been common to not even have engies or rangers in a raid at all, class balance is a total joke in WvW.

Knighthonor.4061:

Was far more balanced since the classes didnt need to be balanced around 1v1.

Classes aren’t balanced for 1v1 in GW2, look at ranger, 1v1 it has had plenty of very strong builds over the course of this game, yet it has generally been one of the weaker classes in conquest, what something does 1v1 isn’t that important by itself.

The advantage games like WoW have in balance is that firstly they have hard roles which protects a class from balance changes, so even if say the single target healer class gets over nerfed, it is still the best single target healer and so is required, and that translates through all content, in GW2 PvP thief virtually has a hard role, so even after a number of nerfs it still didn’t matter, because nothing has the mobility to compete as a roamer with a thief, but that is the only class in that poistion.

WoW type games also have trinity which translates through the different game modes and different scales better (for the most part) than what happens in GW2, where a lot of the mechanics and balancing that works for 5v5 tPvP simply break in WvW or PvE or even other PvP modes.

Dal.5872:

Actually the double teaming has been good fun. The only thing that bugs me is do they have to double team at the exact same time… The lag is just horrendous and never been as highlighted as it is with 75 Vs 150….

At least take it in turns instead of this constant server meltdown currently being experienced.

There is no 75 Vs 150 to cause lag, there is no need, go ask your commander what happened on reset night on SFR home border, SFR got one pushed all night (until they gave up), even when they tried to go into the back of FSP when FSP were fighting Deso.

That is what happens when a server gets bandwagoned by PvE nabs that can’t fight, and a bug chunk of the decent players have enough and leave, SFR should stick to what they are good at, fighting doors.

P.S – The lack of awareness in this thread when talking about “double teaming” is hilarious, all you SFR PvE boys who have bandwagoned need to go ask someone what happened when SFR, BB & Deso played in season 2, what goes around, comes around…

His article is terrible, if he followed his own advice in life, then he would of “played to win” and gone into finance or something and be earning 10 times what he does now, but of course I assume he chose games, because at least in part he does what he finds fun, just like the alleged “scrubs” in his poorly thought through article.

The only thing worse than his article is when forum scrubs wrongly apply it to irrelevant situations, ‘playing to win’ at all costs might cut it if you are at Dreamhack playing DOTA 2 for $1m or whatever, but for the vast majority of people they are not in that position, they are simply playing a game for ‘fun’, so for instance the idea of playing some “cheese” build in order to “play to win”, that you find boring as hell rather defeats the point of playing the game in the first place.

apharma.3741:

Adapt or die, it really is as simple as that.

More accurately for most it is compromise your fun or simply do something else other than roaming, be it only playing in raids/zergs, tPvP or another game, most seem to have gone for the ‘do something else’ option, hence why the activity level of roaming/small group is seen as ‘dead’.

But then really this game has never been particularly good for roaming.

babazhook.6805:

A single power attack landed can do 10K plus in damage. I challenge you to show me a Condition based attack that can land a condition that will do 10k in damage as the player goes afk.

Occasionally I play condi engi in WvW, if I crit hit someone with pistol 4 from short range I have incendiary ammo up, it procs incendiary powder & the bleed on crit trait, then with the ridiculous stats, food, crystals, sigils, etc you get in WvW then the overall damage for that is about 37k…

Now of course normally you will never reach that damage because that would require them to endure the 3 stacks of burn from the blowtorch for the full 16 seconds without cleansing, and for them to be running no -40% food, etc, however even enduring for say 6 seconds is around 20k damage just from that at around 3.4k damage per second (7 stacks of burning + the bleed), which is beyond ridiculous.

And of course one of the big differences is between me doing that on my engi and a power build that does 10k hit, is my engi is wearing dire with a little bit of rabid, so has ridiculous faceroll defensive stats of 3.1k armour & 24k hp.

Which is why there are so many that play condi when roaming in WvW it is low risk / high reward, and other than the odd thing like a well played diamond skin ele or certain necro builds, always has an advantage, basically much more forgving and generally easymode.

Brando.1374:

zinkz.7045:

mulzi.8273:

no. The problem isnt conditions. The problem lies in the fact that the majority of players are stuck in the ’power’ syndrome, where they try to squeeze every single once of power dmg out of their spec. To do this, they sacrifice condi-clear.

Its their own fault they don’t bring condi-clear. This is why you do not see an uproar in spvp, as folks there will bring condi-clear...

No you don’t see the uproar in PvP because game is balanced for that mode, so balanced for 5v5 where you can have guards, eles, shout warriros etc, AOE cleanse and help out classes/builds that have weak condi removal.

As opposed to WvW where condi is not balanced in the slightest, in large groups it is severely underpowered, in 1v1/2v2, it is severely overpowered, and where the imbalance is made much worse because of access to gear that is considered too broken to be even be allowed in PvP like 40% duration food, 10% duration stones, perplexity runes, givers weapons, sigil of Malice, Dire stats, etc.

Which is why so many nabs play condi when roaming in WvW, and one of the reasons why roaming is pretty dead in this game.

ok, lets say we use this build for an example
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQNArYWjc0QnNWdD22A/NOCGKZTv0PdMpDgIgeFfRTA-TFiHAB0+AAaTfAu7Pso6PAcKAsTJoRK/A+IAEAABYmlZZOzAjX8iX8iX8MzZOzZOzZWKAIWWB-w

+50% condi duration with food
+30% confusion duration with runes
+100% condi duration with scepter attacks

lets just use the Auto attack bleeds for now. which in this build total to 12.5s and deals 184 Damage per second per stack for a total of around 2208 over 12s.

now run any build with melandru runes and lemongrass soup which is -65% condition duration.

Now the fun part...
12.5s - 65% = 4.3s ...........

4.3s at 184 damage is about 736 damage per stack!

so where is this OP long lasting condition damage coming from?

Not really, your maths are wrong, -condie duration and +condie duration work the same, they work additively off the base duration, in your maths you have +condie working off base duration, but then make the -condie working off the entire duration, which is wrong.

So if for example a skill is 5s base duration and you have +40% duration food and your opponent has -40% food, then they cancel each other out on a point per point basis, so the skill stays at 5s.

Which means even if a player decides to go full out to counter condies with both -40% food and melandru runes (which in itself is unreasonable as people have to fight all sorts of builds), they will still reduce condie duration by less than a condie build can increase it by using some of, +40% food, +10% stone, runes like like Balthzaar. krait etc (+45% to their respective condies ), sigil of malice 10%, traits that increase burning or bleedign by 33%, etc.

And of course simply comparing the auto attack is also disingenuous, it is the constant application, the speed of which condies are reapplied, from so many attacks, that damage continues with no effort on the players part, so they can kite, stealth, etc whilst still inflicting thousands of damage. And even an autoattack is a bastion of skilless passive play that can proc a multitude of condies from on crit traits that add burns or bleeds, on crit sigils that add posion, torment, etc, chance on hit from runes like with perplexity to add confusion.

Then there is ease of application, as a generalisation condie damage is easier to apply than power damage, necro is a fine example compare how easy it is to apply condies with scepter to trying to burst someone with a dagger.

And of course now we have burn where even in PvP you can hit 8k ticks, on damage that is supposed to be over time, which is the alleged excuse for being able to have faceroll defensive stats like in the build you gave with 28k HP and 2.9k toughness.

Lastly there is the other issue with this silly -/+ food in WvW, that it also imbalances power builds that rely on immobilize, cripple, chill, etc to land their damage, if they come up against someone with -40% food, then that makes their soft CC weaker and their damage harder to land, if they take +40% food to counter that, then they are become even more susceptible to condies as they can’t have the -40% food, some of the things in this game and WvW especially are a joke...

mulzi.8273:

no. The problem isnt conditions. The problem lies in the fact that the majority of players are stuck in the ‘power’ syndrome, where they try to squeeze every single once of power dmg out of their spec. To do this, they sacrifice condi-clear.

Its their own fault they don’t bring condi-clear. This is why you do not see an uproar in spvp, as folks there will bring condi-clear…

No you don’t see the uproar in PvP because game is balanced for that mode, so balanced for 5v5 where you can have guards, eles, shout warriros etc, AOE cleanse and help out classes/builds that have weak condi removal.

As opposed to WvW where condi is not balanced in the slightest, in large groups it is severely underpowered, in 1v1/2v2, it is severely overpowered, and where the imbalance is made much worse because of access to gear that is considered too broken to be even be allowed in PvP like 40% duration food, 10% duration stones, perplexity runes, givers weapons, sigil of Malice, Dire stats, etc.

Which is why so many nabs play condi when roaming in WvW, and one of the reasons why roaming is pretty dead in this game.

Substance E.4852:

WvW: The only wvw meta is the zerg/gvg meta and no guild that knows what they are doing brings rangers at the moment.

Really? I watched a GvG on Twitch the other week, I think it was ASH vs NB (EU) and ASH won, they also ran a ranger or two, as far I am aware these are two of the strongest guilds on EU.

Tongku.5326:

Stale zeker meta for years since game launched, condi patch was supposed to make condi builds viable within or close to meta.

Whilst I agree that they have essentially balanced for PvP, really the problem with PvE is the PvE content is badly designed to the point it renders many skills / mechanisms in this game as pretty worthless, so what you end up with is nothing else really matters other than DPS and a side serving of skills like reflect, stealth (this in itself and stealthing past vast amounts of content is laughable), etc, really they ought to mend the PvE first.

But generally I agree, they balance essentially for PvP at the expense of everything else, overall across three modes this game has the worst balance I have ever encountered in an MMORPG, it doesn’t help that classes are not protected by having hard roles, but really the length of time certain classes have been bottom of the barrel and the difference in representation of classes across modes is by far the worse I have encountered.

I mean look at PvE, necro has been bottom of the barrel pretty much the entire game, meanwhile eles get stacked, or in WvW, as a generalisation for the last three years 4 classes make up the vast majority of zergs/raids/GvG, whilst the other four are far fewer in number to the point with classes like engy/ranger they have not even been recruited by most WvW guilds over the course of this game, never played an MMO like it, sure balance can be crappy at times in all games, but in every MMO I’ve played things actually change, the class that is bottom of the barrel gets buffed and a year later is strong, not in GW2…

The funny thing is even the PvP balance is a joke, go watch an ESL or something and count how many rangers you see, then count how virtually every team has an ele or double ele, or compare how thief has had a spot in nearly every team for 3 years, then compare how necro & ranger have been represented over that time.

Really part of the problem is they avoided using the trinity system but their “control, DPS, support” alternative does not work as well across multiple game modes, nor does it scale with numbers very well, so when you combine that with poor PvE content design and primarily balancing for PvP, you end up with a class balance train wreck in PvE & WvW.

Nier.8741:

Why should something that has “low-risk” be viable?

Erm why should ranger be any different, when there has been plenty of “low-risk” viable builds in this game, was shoutbow high risk, was hambow high risk, was cele engi high risk, how about eles, where are the eles playing high-risk fresh air scepter builds, oh, nowhere, because they are all playing low-risk, mobile, tanky, mega sustain d/d ele, and so on.

The dev responsible for ele. (and after that Toker)

Nier.8741:

…but it also doesn’t take skill to play …

On that basis you’d have to redesign most classes.

Lusteregris.2697:

So, based on assumptions made in this thread..mesmers are the most powerfull, followed by necro, then engi.

The slight flaw being the assumptions in this thread are incorrect, engineers for example did not get extra pistol range made baseline, nor extra elixir gun range, nor did they get coated bullets.

Sevans.4619:

Is this whole “carried by food/stats” thing something people tell themselves so they feel better about dying in WvW?

Why is it always assumed that it’s lop-sided? Why can’t both players have food and ascended stats? Most of your good roamers have devoted the resources to getting all that stuff too, so it’s still a level playing field. And as Puck said, some of the really ridiculous sPvP builds can be dealt with a little more easily by being able to mix’n’match stats (or by not losing if you don’t stand on a point.)

There are great players in both battlefields. How ‘bout we don’t detract from anyone that’s doing well?

People are carried by their builds in both PvP and WvW to an extent, but there are a couple of differences, in WvW it is that much worse because you have stuff that adds further to the imbalance like food, oil/stones, perplexity runes, dire gear, etc.

Then on top of that you have that the game was designed and balanced around tPvP, so certain things, stealth for example which in tPvP is balanced to an extent by not being able to capture / contest the nodes and by making endlessly resetting a fight a poor use of your time when the score is continually ticking along, whilst stealth in WvW has neither of those constraints, so becomes broken OP for roaming.

But really it is neither here nor there, the combat in this game does not have a high skill cap, what separates good players / teams in PvP from the mediocre are things like map awareness, decisions on when, where and whom to rotate, etc.

lordkrall.7241:

People might not do MUCH none-WvW stuff, but as soon as you start doing some PvE or PvP (if just only to get some money or do a guild mission or skin) you no longer ONLY play WvW.

It’s an irrelevant distinction, if someone plays WvW the vast majority of the time, then that is the reason they play the game, that is the area that is of concern to them, it doesn’t matter whether someone plays 100% WvW or 80%.

lordkrall.7241:

But fact remains that the largest part of the player based does play PvE, so it makes sense for them to spend most resources on PvE.

Actually what “makes sense” is for them to spend resources on a particular niche of PvE player that spends lots of money on gems or new players that may spend lots of gems, which is largely what they have done for three years.

Which is of course the problem with B2P/F2P, they like to talk “quality”, but the reality is anything but, one of the reasons WoW has been able to grow / sustain such a playerbase over the years is it puts resources into every type of player, because with a sub every player matters, as opposed to selling boxes to new players and selling gems to a small minority of “whales” to play Barbie.

DiscoJacen.1590:

Talking about a “balance” forum in the WvW section basically means (grammatically) that he’s referring to a “balance WvW” section.

What? Class balance in WvW is what he is talking about, you were talking about “fair fights” which are two different things. (and no that the latter part of your post mentioned the class balance does not negate the “silliness” of the first part)

DiscoJacen.1590:

Then he proceeded to talk about a class specific unbalance that should either be posted to the class specific section (mesmer here) or the GW2 general discussion section.

LOL, who made you mod, most balance threads critical of a class don’t get posted in class forums, as they tend to get a bad response there, so people post them in the PvP forum for class balance in PvP , in the dungeons forum for class balance in PvE, and guess where for class balance in WvW?

DiscoJacen.1590:

It’s your obsessive aggression that has nothing to do with this thread.

The only person being “aggressive” is you.