Guild Wars 2

Vagrant.7206:

• Scrapper is only really useful in PvP or WvW.

It isn’t really useful in WvW, it is okay for small groups and had a really niche role in “GvG” that really is optional, unlike rev, guard, etc, and even when is used for that they only need one scrapper.

Outside of that it is weak, solo roaming it is sub-par because it has terrible damage application / zero chase ability, then the larger scale you get the less use its “GvG” niche becomes so if a guild runs 25 man there is really no need for it and in zergs/blobs it is completely surplus to requirements.

Miyafuji.1340:

The problem is WvW is not making money.

I’d say the problem is their business model rather than WvW, cash shops generally get money from new players, “whales” and very casual players, I mean do you think most long term PvE players sitting on mountains of gold are contributing much to the revenue or PvP players? (Revenue of which has had 4 record low quarters in a row, where has all this PvE revenue gone?)

That is why for an MMO if the game can sustain it then sub is the best model, every player is of some value, resources need to be put into many areas of the game, if your game relies on a cash shop then bad companies simply focus excessively on minorities like new players (you could see this with GW2 for years), “whales” who buy every piece of kitten in the cash shop, etc

Which is why whatever critics may say, a 13 year old MMO still has far more players than the rest and still puts most others to shame (including this one) in terms of the way it is run and the resources that are put into different parts of the game.

apharma.3741:

zinkz.7045:

Svarty.8019:

This is a problem because THERE IS NO COUNTERPLAY.

There is no problem, because the counterplay is to stop hugging siege in your tower, go out and fight them, you know, what you are supposed to do in a PvP game mode…

Doesn’t work when it’s 5 people and 10 headless chickens defending vs a group of 30-40 fully supplied with those gawd aweful necros plaguing WvW atm.

I mean I’d happily fight them all 1 by 1 if they’d form a nice orderly queue….

That isn’t a problem as such, if I am 5 vs 40, then I am meant to lose in that situation, that isn’t an issue with players being able to damage doors, that is a problem caused by the fundamentally bad design of server vs server vs server when it comes to creating even vaguely balanced populations / situations and Anet’s failure to address that.

Svarty.8019:

This is a problem because THERE IS NO COUNTERPLAY.

There is no problem, because the counterplay is to stop hugging siege in your tower, go out and fight them, you know, what you are supposed to do in a PvP game mode…

Cynz.9437:

Whole reason why they gutted every other aspect if thief to june patch was their idea of thief being decap pet/janitor. Running away is part of that “design”.

Not really, the whole reason it is largely like that is because thief is a badly designed class with mechanics that are too strong, and too different from every other class that are impossible to balance, in a game with a badly designed trait/stat/skill system where they can’t easily isolate one build from another.

What thief (and the entire trait/skill/stat/weapon system) actually needs are fundamental changes, but it is Anet and they specialise in papering over the cracks, rather than finding real solutions, which is part of the reason their game is in the state it is in.

Packit.8576:

The care bear status hasn’t changed on TC i see

The irony… Are you under the impression you are playing EVE Online? Or maybe you think you are playing DOTA 2 competitively for a few million dollars at The International?

Newsflash GW2 is a low skilled, casual MMO, that makes great efforts to avoid “hardcore” sorts of gameplay, where WvW is about as “carebear” as you can get for any PvP mode, and you are playing it…

Loop.8106:

Also, these changes carrying over to WvW where the only DH’s that even use LB are us roamers is a joke. You nerfed an already garbage roaming class.

Meanwhile in the aspects that account for what the vast majority of WvW players do – zergs/guild raids, for the entire duration of the game guardian has been the most broken OP irreplaceable class and with more guardians in WvW than mes, engi, ranger & thief put together.

Sigil is fine, thief is just a badly designed class that is impossible to balance, this is just another example of that.

Azel.4786:

It nerfs base ele abilities due to problems caused by the Tempest and, thus, instead of fixing the elite spec, the devs opt to kick the already down other builds to try and fix the excess of Tempest durability (Elemental Shielding and Obsidian Flesh nerfs).

They will never get balance right and will always hit other builds when trying to tone down whatever is meta/OP, because that is pretty much all that is possible with the base system of things like traits, weapons, how stats are available, etc.

On the surface the GW2 system of traits, picking any stat on any build, freely choosing weapons, etc looks like it should give lots of build variety, lots of opportunities for people to come up with new builds, but the reality is it doesn’t, because it is impossible to balance, it is too difficult to target the OP build and nerf it without hitting less strong builds.

This game would have much more genuine build variety (as in builds that at or near “viable” for a game mode), if each class simply had 3 separate trait trees like you get in some other games each aimed at a specific role e.g – support, damage, etc, they could even tie the availability of stats/weapons to a role if needed.

So sure some people would cry they have less choice with a system like that, but the reality is you would get more genuine choices, because Anet could balance things seperately so to take ele as an example they would actually be able to have a decent damage spec, because they would be able to target nerfs at the OP support spec separately.

But then this is Anet, and the Anet way of doing things is paper over the cracks rather than address the fundamental issues.

Ardenwolfe.8590:

Again, all this ‘balance’ is based around PvP in a mostly PvE game . . . but that’s another topic.

A number of the changes are in PvP only so they don’t effect PvE, beyond that you can say the same (in fact even more so) about raids, the “PvE” “balance” changes they make in patches are virtually all about raids, something which makes up a tiny proportion of PvE and that most players don’t play or barely play.

TheDarkSoul.1938:

Top priority for me is removing every single passive from the game. Every single one.

If you try hard maybe you can work out why a casual MMORPG with a wide and diverse playerbase and with classes that have different mechanics/designs, require at least some passives.

None, since HoT the combat in WvW has been the most tedious, most forgiving it has ever been, most decent guilds/players left the game and the overall level of fight activity has plummeted, if I remember back T1/T2 (EU) when the matchup was Deso/SFR/X and compare where you had good activity 12-16 hours of day to the joke the game is now, well…

WvW Is A Priority After HoT…

… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rp7tt0_VSOs

It will make zero difference, as this game has been dead/trash for roaming for a long time.

Nikkinella.8254:

Any game that has successful pvp ALWAYS has separate skill balance from pve. Its just common sense that you would have to do this as players don’t have the same stats as mobs. Whats ok in pve is usually overpowered in pvp. I can’t think of a single mmo i’ve played, that actually had good pvp, besides this one that doesnt have separate skill balance.

Successful PvP games either have no PvE or focus entirely around PvP (and even then focus around one aspect of PvP, not things as vastly different as WvW & 5 man conquest) and virtually ignore PvE, separate skill balance doesn’t address most of the balance issues which are more fundamental than changing numbers, slightly altering an effect, etc.

Azukas.1426:

Well WvW GvG back when it was a thing was more popular then Anet’s Pro League. It’s something you’ve obviously never partook.

That was a community run scene too so imagine what woulda happened if it actually got the Dev support.

10v10 with PvP stats I think would be a wonderful addition to the game. Give it proper support and you might be surprised at what happens.

Not a valid comparison, by the time Anet got round to “Pro league” PvP was also long past its peak, back when PvP was more popular it got far higher views than GvG ever got, one of the tourneys got 15k for the finals and even the player made ones back in the day got 5-6k.

GvG on the other hand at its best got about 2-3k for the big GvG people wanted to see (e.g TA v Lag), then there was a huge drop off to anything not involving the top 2-3 guilds so the next week Chemsorly would be back down to 300 viewers for some GvG no one gave a toss about.

Shaogin.2679:

Actually game mode didn’t die until it was pure solo queue so…….yeah.

Not really, the actual PvP population for the most part left the game long ago, which is why they have been propping it up with bribes to PvE/WvW for a long time, the bribes simply ran out, mixed with the continuing decline of the game (especially WvW which used to supply a lot of players that did PvP as their secondary thing) and the negative effect HoT had on combat outside PvE.

The fact that when they went to solo/duo they had to go with that alone because the population couldn’t support that and a team queue or that that the weekly ESL tournaments died back when we had team queue, should be clues that the population was already on death’s door.

Dawdler.8521:

Jski.6180:

I think most ppl are putting there hopes and dreams on CU more then any thing.

Camelot Unchained – been killing WvW so hard since people first said it was going to kill WvW 4 years ago its approaching negative death.

Because GW2 and every other MMO were produced in 6 months…

Not that he said anything about killing WvW anyway, Anet have done a fine job of that all by themselves.

Lucentfir.7430:

hardcore group content…

Thanks for the laugh, a game where people have taken down numerous raid bosses for 10 man groups with groups of 4-6, and someone even soloed one, GW2 raids are about as hardcore as My Little Pony.

Swamurabi.7890:

WvW got put on the bottom of the priority inbox and has to wait its turn in the queue.

WvW doesn’t get a “turn”, which is a fine example one of the reasons an MMO released in 2004 (ish) and charges a sub still has way more players than second raters like this game, that don’t put the minimum of necessary amounts of resources into many areas of the game (even entire game modes like WvW), then wonders where most of the players went and why it has record low revenues 3 quarters in a row, but don’t worry, more outfits in the gem store.

Jerus.4350:

Gotta say I find it funny to see someone playing Mace+Shield/GS stance warrior complaining about Thief Evade/blocks

If you watched the whole video he states his build is also lame (apparently not allowed to use the actual word he used) and that he sits on passives and just heals up, that every time he gets CC’d he gets healed and a load of toughness, etc.

Which is basically why it sums HoT up, two lame builds, that are low skilled (even by the relatively low standards of GW2), that produce tedious, brainless, boring combat.

“Planning to leave…”

Erm, you are a bit late given most WvW players have already left / barely play anymore and T1/T2 matchups (on EU at least) have about the same level of activity that low to mid tier silver league servers had (and that is comparing 5 or 6 linked servers to just 3).

Ansau.7326:

Oh god, you still don’t get it…

Irony…

Ansau.7326:

Anet didn’t design professions around game modes. Anet created a defined playstyle for each profession. And these playstyles will suit better in some modes and lesser in others. That’s the essence of Gw2 profession design, and you have to accept it, otherwise I don’t know why are you playing it…

Thief is designed to have very high mobility, to be evasive and surprising, regardless of how the game mode is or how thief performs in it. This is the definition of thief: “They utilize stealth and shadowstepping to surprise and to get close to their target”. The fact that roaming is a game mode that strengthens the potential of thief doesn’t mean the design of the class is wrong. Because at the same time, thief is hard punished in game modes where resistance and group interactivity become more important, like zerguing.

And your last point is very narrowminded, because it only focuses on roaming while not taking into account other game modes. While you complain of how strong mesmer and thieves are at roaming, they also have the right to complain about how are they weak in zerguing, and how other professions are an ez win when bieng in a zerg, like guards or necros.

Basically, you don’t have a point because you fail to understand the fact that mesmer, thief, warrior, scrapper or druid designs are inherently better suit for roaming, but at the same time they are weaker in zerguing.
We can make the comparison that roaming with a necro, ele or a dh is the same as zerguing with a thief, mesmer or warrior. You will have a harder time because you’re using a profession that doesn’t excel at what you’re playing.

You are talking nonsense.

The classes in terms of combat were designed around PvP, go ask someone who was in Alpha, it was all about what Teldo & Co thought, PvE/WvW was virtually ignored in that regard because the original vision of the game was PvP was the serious bit, while PvE & WvW were casual.

Which is why for the entirety of the game WvW class balance in all aspects from blobs to roaming as been non-existent and why for 3 years PvE class balance was only marginally less useless than WvW, until HoT and they focused on PvE raids and started to balance for that (WvW still basically got virtually no balance consideration other than the odd rare scrap), it is also why back at launch when they did balance discussions on Twitch after patches (which you clearly never watched) the changes were 90-100% in relation to PvP, because that is what the game was balanced around back then.

As for this nonsense about roaming vs zerging, thief for example being broken in regard to risk vs reward when roaming is not “balanced” by being crappy as a zerg class, both aspects are simply the result of the game being designed around a point capture mode and 5 years of WvW largely being ignored when it comes to balance. (I’d also add that for a good while in this game thief was wanted in focus parties for guild raids, mesmer is still wanted, albeit in small numbers, haven’t fared any worse in zergs than rangers or engies, yet have generally, bar pre-nerf druid been better roamers, meanwhile warrior is a pretty decent zerg class and at times has also been broken OP at roaming)

And yes I agree guards and necros are broken when it comes to zergs, but again that isn’t balance, that again is simply the result of a game mode barely being considered when it comes to class/combat design and balance, time to wake up and smell the coffee.

Ansau.7326:

3. Thieves are designed this way.

There was no “design” as such at least in regard to WvW, thief (and everything else that is broken/imbalanced in WvW) weren’t designed for WvW, let alone roaming specifically, they were designed around PvP conquest.

And to take thief as the example in conquest, being able to reset fights is naturally balanced by the game mode, because there is a penalty to resetting a fight, the score continues to tick, your opponent gets the cap, decap, etc, so your opponent/opposing team gain something by a thief getting to the point where they have to withdraw.

In WvW on the other hand there is none of that (unless you are fighting over a camp or something), if I am on thief screw up or am outplayed by my opponent, instead of being punished for that as I should I can in most cases simply disengage if I want, it completely breaks a very basic rule of PvP design – risk vs reward.

And to be clear, before bad thieves QQ, the same applies to lesser extents to certain mesmer builds, certain druid build, etc, which is why thieves, mesmers, etc have always been very numerous when it comes to roaming, they are basically low risk and ez-mode.

Just one of the reasons this game is a joke for roaming and not worth the time for it.

Crinn.7864:

I mean yeah if you try to a play a build that was non-viable before Hot, you’re going to be screwed, but you where screwed back then too, so I don’t see the relevance.

You’ve had it explained, if you are still struggling to grasp that powercreep to certain things, increases the gap between those skills/traits and skills/traits not powercreeped, then really that is your problem.

Let me see the only class that would be easier, is thieves, and uh that’s it.

Every single class is more forgiving and has had weaknesses removed/lessened.

Crinn.7864:

Sounds like bronze. The classes have definitive weaknesses. Revs to condi, thieves to area cleave, necros to spikes, mesmers to cleave, warrior to boon corrupt and kiting, DH to unblockables and CC, Ele to condis, engi to boon corrupt.

Did you even play the game pre-HoT? (Hint: none of those other than revs to condi and necros getting kittened are real weaknesses, but then what else would I expect from a GW2 player…)

But whatever I’m off to either screw around in WvW or play an actual competitive game that involves things which are too much for GW2 like aiming, so you carry on with PvP and contemplate that now PvE/WvW players have attained their bribes, why so few are playing it and why the PvP population had to be boosted through bribes in the first place.

Crinn.7864:

The difference between the viable and the sub-viable is no different than it was.

Wrong.

With HoT the gap between what was optimal and what was not grew larger because of the powercreep.

Which meant for many players who previously may have been at a small disadvantage playing a build they found more engaging to play, they were now at a big disadvantage, which was too much, so many simply chose to play a different game.

As you’ve apparently missed it, GW2 is a casual game that competitively has always been a joke, most people don’t priortise “winning at all costs” in a joke game, they go play something else or they play an actual competitive game if that is their thing, and why you have threads like this about dead PvP.

Crinn.7864:

And please we haven’t had power creep since 2015, and that power creep was honestly a good thing..

If making a game with a combat system that was already relatively low skilled and cheesy, even more low skilled and cheesy is your thing then well…

Crinn.7864:

As for healers, fun fact about them: The decision not to have them was not universally accepted within ArenaNet devs, and their non-existence was only because of some internal politicking on the part of a couple devs. Source

“Fun”, but irrelevant, they went without them and designed around that.

Crinn.7864:

At least post HoT we have multiple roles to fill instead of bruisers being the god role.

Really? Without a hint of irony? The powercreep, healers, boonfest, etc has made most classes post-HoT play like cele eles that have no real weakness.

PierPiero.9142:

for roaming with condi mesmer in wvw which setup do you prefer ?

None, because they all give me a sore face.

Crinn.7864:

No, the balance is better than it’s been in years.

Depends on what aspect of balance you look at / consider important, sure as far as each class having a viable build the balance is pretty good, but in terms of build variety, the gap between what is “meta” and other builds,/skills/weapons/traits, then the game has been at an all time low since HoT.

Same thing with the combat, the powercreep is not good balance, it is terrible, more passives, more boon spam, more evades, more skills that do way too much, introduction of “healers” into a game specifically designed not to have them, weaknesses of classes removed or toned down, etc.

The balance, what skill there was, and the fun of the combat of this game went down the toilet with HoT, at least as far as PvP & WvW go.

Xyonon.3987:

Actually the “clunkyness” of this kit makes it unique. A high dps with delayed damage output. It’s a great mechanic to play around, so I absolutely have no issue with the bomb kit whatsoever.

Then I guess you only play against dumb AI…

Tiny Doom.4380:

They didn’t add these things because people complained. They added them because the developers’ conception for WvW is a game based around the taking and defending of structures by the implementation and use of siege machinery. That’s what WvW is.

Very hard to look at the way the game mode has been handled over the entire life of the game and make a case for it being intended to be anything other than that, much though many players would like it to be something else.

Most of the developers that conceived WvW do not even work for the company anymore, let alone work on WvW, and the conception was “massive battles”, now maybe “massive battles” meant 8 players on siege the rest standing around doing very little, then going on a resupply run and repeating that until you either eventually get in and maybe get a fight or die of boredom, but I doubt it.

And “massive battles” (much more frequently in keeps/garri than now) is what happened for the first 3 years where changes to siege/defense were relatively minor (and in fact some changes like the increased radius on siege attacks from WvW ranks basically showed a disregard for maps designed for the original siege ranges).

Then HoT happened…

Straegen.2938:

I guess 50 players building a half dozen rams to take down a gate against half their numbers…

Actually it is fine, one of the reasons WvW has died off is because they listened to people who lack basic logic and cried about needing tools to defend against superior numbers, so they added siege like shield gens, buffed AC damage, fortified everything, put in trash mechanics like chilling fog, etc.

And all that achieved was more people leaving the game in the post-HoT collapse of WvW, because if 10 guys can use that crap against 50, then so can 50 defending against 50 attackers and make attempting to take objectives boring as hell, to the point most people do not want to do it anymore, but like I said that was the obvious outcome to anyone with a basic grasp of logic, the actual solution to defending against 50 players with 25 was to address population balance, but that involved too much work.

Erm, close matchups have always been a rarity in this game, the number of matchups throughout the history of this game where all three servers were close at the end of the week is tiny, as a competitive game mode WvW has always been a bit of a joke.

choovanski.5462:

wanting nerfs that reduce the mechanical complexity of a game because a player cant use minimap or act proactively is asking for the game to be easier, hence ‘kid gloves’.

Whoosh…

Nerfs to faceroll skills that are “kid gloves” that means they are less faceroll to use with more meaningful counterplay and less “kid gloves”, as for the rest of your drivel…

choovanski.5462:

cool how your argument is that faceroll mechanics shouldn’t be in a tab targeting rpg…

No dear, my argument is that making comments about others and “kid gloves” in a game where the combat is packed full of low skilled mechanics like the previously mentioned skills and is basically a “kid gloves” design, is an impressive mix of ignorance and unintentional irony.

choovanski.5462:

some people jus want kid gloves

The irony…

You are playing a game which is tab targeted, so the game aims for you, because having real action combat which requires aiming, is too hard for GW2 players, you can’t get much more “kid gloves” than GW2.

Which is why skills like steal, judges intervention, etc are a faceoll joke, game aims for you, instant, 1200 range, can go through walls, etc, oh noes I have to make sure they aren’t blocking, etc, such skill…

Only GW2 players would even even argue that sort of thing is fine, but then I guess this is the clueless playerbase that bangs on about passives, oblivious to the reality that the “active” play in this game is a low skilled spam fest full of passive play like not having to aim.

All I’d say is, what zerg busting?

Sure early in the game I remember RG, VotF, etc doing it, but then that was because they had worked out the “meta” and how to fight large scale whilst most players/guilds had not, but since then I saw it very little.

Maybe it is because I have always played on servers that have been “fighting” servers and had decent guilds on them so the zergs had a lot of those players in / zergs were sometimes open raids, or that I have generally been selective about which commanders I follow when I bother to zerg it up, or that I don’t play on NA (I hear the zergs were bad on NA), but it has been 3+ years since I remember being in a zerg that was busted and that only happened due to surprise.

I’ve blobbed it up against TA and there was no “zergbusting”, it seemed more they were trying to see how long they could sustain against 60+ players which granted was noticeably longer than other guilds, maybe if I had played on a server like AR (sorry AR) or bothered to follow “fun” tags then I may have witnessed more “zergbusting”.

But when your zerg has 25 GvG players in it, 30 experienced players, only a few rallybots and a decent commander, largely using the “right” builds and in correct groups, then there is no “zerg busting” and never has been, GW2 is simply not a high skill game (WvW even more so).

Frankly I’ve seen the opposite quite often, remember when FSP was stacked a year or so pre-HoT, there were zergs there that would fight 3 guilds at once.

HnRkLnXqZ.1870:

Again, access to 6 skill sets compared to access to 2 skill sets. This is a class mechanic. Again it is a trade, versatility for power.

Except in practical terms the powercreep in this game means engi doesn’t really have better versatility anymore, every class has had weaknesses removed/toned down, movement buffs have been handed out like candy, new elite specs have made a lot of classes like toned down cele eles that can do everything, etc, engy’s versatility has largely disappeared, why roam on my engy when there are other classes that can have builds that have better mobility, better damage application, actual chase ability, sustain and can deal with condies, when the alleged “versatile” class cannot.

vier.1327:

Can a small guild (10-15) defeat a zerg (+40)?

Not unless the zerg are terrible, and really that has always been the case, because this is not a high skill game. (even more so WvW)

wardspratlin.9107:

….people just arent buying into solo que its boring to play by yourself….if you want to do that there are FAR better games to do so with….

The majority of players in small scale PvP games queue solo/duo, it is why pretty much every game caters to that in some way even though these games are based around 5 or 6 man teams.

So the idea that PvP would be in good shape with team queue is fantasy, the ESL tourneys died whilst we had team queue, they’ve been bribing PvE players into PvP for years to make up for the PvP population that quit long ago.

Don’t get me wrong that there is no option for people to queue as a 5 man team in a 5 man team game is absolutely kittened, but that then that is the waste of space that are Anet polls, where they usually give one kitten option and one marginally less kitten option, neither of which are the solution, but it doesn’t matter what system they have now, the game is 5 years old, in decline and most PvP players have left, there is no real solution at this point.

Trajan.4953:

I’ve been saying for ages, clear out the oasis in the middle, make it completely flat with no funky terrain, mobs or ambients. DBL would be the most popular map for those groups that just want fights. The PPT crew and the K-Train heroes can go ham on the alpine bl and all the fight groups are nicely tucked away out of sight and mind. Win/win.

It has been sayed.

It already has flat areas where guilds/blobs go for fights, the plateau near the south camp for example.

Feanor.2358:

Mesmers are super useful in large-scale WvW. Portal and Veil.

Mesmer is useful. which is why I said to a lesser extent for them, but the reality is if you look over WvW over the course of this game, other than a brief period after HoT when boonshare mes was the thing, you only ever had 1 or 2 in a guild raid and only wanted 2 or 3 for an 80 man blob, eles have fared way better in comparison.

ProDecius.2609:

lol someone is out of touch…

The irony is strong with this one..

Commanders in EU don’t want rangers, thieves or engies at all for blobs, whilst with mesmers it is the same old story 2 or 3 is fine, any more they would rather have a GWREN class.

Which has been the pattern for pretty much the whole game outside of a brief period when boonshare mes was the big thing, so whining about the “terrible” state of ele in large scale WvW is hilarious.

Is this another ironic thread?

Ele complaining about large scale WvW…

Go see engy, ranger, thief & to a lesser extent mesmer for classes that actually have something to complain about on that front, and have largely had those complaints for years. (which tells you all you need to know about how much attention Anet give class balance in WvW)

Omega Zoa.3859:

I agree 100% every patch that has been released so far for rev for the past few ner-i mean balancing patches have only nerfed heavily and given bread crumbs of buffs, or stuff that people did not ask for.

inb4 people who do not play rev come in here and say rev is fine/rev is op.

Rev is not fine, but then being nerfed heavily or getting stuff people did not ask for is not unique to rev, eles didn’t ask for endless buffs to shatterstone, engis were nerfed for the first year or so of the game, then scrapper got nerfed for something like the first 5 balance patches after HoT, and so on.

kdaddy.5431:

Why do people say this game is based around PvP?

Literally the last patched showed its not.

That they give meaningful consideration to PvE (raids) in balance is a relatively new thing, for the first three years they balanced virtually entirely around PvP, when they used to do balance patch discussions on Twitch early in the game, 90-100% of the changes were in realtion to PvP, in Alpha PvE/WvW players were virtually ignored in regard to combat mechanics / class design and all that mattered was what Teldo & Co said, classes in other PvE/WvW modes spend literally years as broken OP/UP because again the game was balanced virtually exclusively around PvP until HoT and so on…

Which is why people say the game (in respect to the mechanics of the class design and balance) is based around PvP.

Is this thread meant to be ironic?

Stand The Wall.6987:

skill groups…

Thanks for the laugh.

Azoqu.8917:

I don’t understand how other classes can be immune and attacking but Guardians need to have a banacing factor attached to theirs.

Because classes are different, so balance is a combination of many things, which means one type of skill on one class is not necessarily going to work the same specific way as a a skill on another class.

Beyond that guard is not the only class with an invrun where you can’t attack at the same time, engi has elixir S (where you really can’t do anythng else unlike guard where you can still use instant skills like JI), ele has mist form, etc.

Shaogin.2679:

Engineers aren’t forced to bring a bar full of kits in PvP

Putting aside that for most of the game engy used two kits in PvP (cele engy, Teldo build, etc), it isn’t simpy about kits, engy needs to make up for that missing weapon bar with whatever goes in those utility slots.

Shaogin.2679:

Every class makes a decision between taking a better utility skill for damage or for stun breaks.

Except on every other class it is an easier decision, every other class (eles get 20 skills from one weapon) gets two weapon bars, and from that can get damage, CC, blocks, condi clear, mobility, heals, boons, evades, etc, hence, engi with their one weapon provides less of those things (even with their OP hammer, let alone how little p/p, p/s & rifle give out of that lot) so there is more pressure to obtain those things in the utility slots than on any other class, (which is why engi has kits to aid in that).

Which is why even back before they went mad with the passives (and pretty much everything else), engy still had certain passives to help deal with being stunned, assist in dealing with condies, etc to reduce the pressure on the utility slots, the devs understood this, even if you do not…