Guild Wars 2

I posted in this thread 26 days ago. Since then I think I’ve played less GW2 in 26 days than I used to play in a single day; I played WvW exclusively (maybe the odd bit of PvP) but have stopped playing GW2 entirely. The borderlands are tedious to play in – and when you play games for fun…

I honestly can’t think of better feedback than that.

Since HoT I’ve pretty much stopped playing GW2. I bought the expansion (yay pre-order) but… WvW (BL) isn’t fun any more; it’s tedious.

I repeat… tedious. I play a game to have fun; I’ve not had fun in WvW BL’s since the update.

I’ve played a little EB but find it relatively pointless; things auto upgrade.

I’ve played some expansion material… but I don’t want go grind to get my specialisations stuff.

Played a few other games, will keep logging in every few days and maybe try WvW. But for now – can’t be bothered. Tedium isn’t the reason to play a game.

So not so much “quit the BL maps”, but quit the entire game. I’ve played less GW2 in 14 days than I played (on average) in an evening pre-expansion.

“Built around traps” – you’ve got one trap… unless you’re counting the once every 30s on heal needle trap that does zero real damage because you’re not condi; the trap you’re taking is moderately pants imo too

In all honesty you’ve got P/P and D/P as your weapon sets. Looks to me like you’re going to be hitting unload a lot, and then getting out of there once you get attacked.

Try running it and see how you fair, but not sure I see the fun value as you appear to be trying to be the best of both worlds (ranged and close) but master of none.

My first question would “what’s your escape plan”.

A thief can solo a grp? Is this a condi thief with plex runes?

My only complaints about condi duration food are the ones which giveth on one hand, and taketh away on the other.

By that I mean the +25% condition duration, -40% condition duration. On one type. There should be a trade off on the foods, not best of both worlds

Zdenny.2704:

Chips.7968:

Please post your build where you’re doing 15k backstabs, 5k+ hits, perma blinds, are tanky AND evasive.

It was an offer what others are thinking how to make thiefs playable again. I said nothing that it exist. Can you read?

Fair enough – then would you like to comment when your thoughts about PvP role of not fighting should apply to all thieves in every game mode – particularly WvW.

Just because you think it’s fine in one scenario, doesn’t even remotely make it fine in all scenarios. Please go to WvW EB map and “play”. Or is flipping camps supposed to be “what thief is all about”.

You don’t have to win every fight to be highly effective.

Nothing wrong with rotating if you find yourself being outdone in a fight. Trying to whittle a tanky player down, or continually resetting the fight against a condi heavy or bursty opposition, for a prolonged period of time is damaging to the overall team.

Recognise the waste, withdraw, rotate and either backcap other points or sway the fight elsewhere.

Your team is more likely to win, to be thankful of your presence, and you’ll probably come top.

Please post your build where you’re doing 15k backstabs, 5k+ hits, perma blinds, are tanky AND evasive.

You describe pvp…

So what’s the role of a WvW thief then? “DON’T FIGHT” – great, wvw sounds thrilling suddenly. Honestly, go play wvw on your thief for a little while and then come back and talk. Let me know how “wonderful” that game experience is for you (considering you don’t think fighting is the role of a thief).

messiah.1908:

Chips.7968:

But thief isn’t supposed to be about ranged play – why else have shadowstep teleports to the opponent and high mobility?

We’re a highly mobile (lulz) class that darts in and out hitting hard and fast, using blind and stealth to disorientate and exasperate. It may not quite work like that in reality all the time, but that’s the base idea. The staff plays into this (from what I hear, yet to get the Daredevil specialisation yet) with lots of evasive actions.

I don’t want to see thieves standing at 1200 distance plinking away with short bow/pistols so I really don’t want to see a range increase.

ATM thief has hard time melee in tpvp also diversity in play style
Like guard has range longbow
Good thief plays longer in his Sb than burst fast in melee
With all the aoe wells traps we can’t do kitten

long range pew pew isn’t really a diversity in play style. Make SB 1200, but cut p/p 3 skill down to 600 range instead? I say that as otherwise we’ll just have a load of pistol 3 people who then stealth up to regain init and then continue to hang around at 1200 range with repeated unloads. It’s even more brainless than the ghost trapper

To be soulbound you equipped it?

If you’ve daredevil specialisation in your third trait line – then you should be able to equip. Are you rank 80? Changed game type (pvp, or wvw or pve – each with requirement to redo it all again)?

But thief isn’t supposed to be about ranged play – why else have shadowstep teleports to the opponent and high mobility?

We’re a highly mobile (lulz) class that darts in and out hitting hard and fast, using blind and stealth to disorientate and exasperate. It may not quite work like that in reality all the time, but that’s the base idea. The staff plays into this (from what I hear, yet to get the Daredevil specialisation yet) with lots of evasive actions.

I don’t want to see thieves standing at 1200 distance plinking away with short bow/pistols so I really don’t want to see a range increase.

Short Bow 4 – the poison field is unblockable, and is easy to drop on targets if they’re blocking.

However, probably not what you’re after?

What game mode – if it’s WvW then an easy explanation is that you’re an upscale…

If it’s PvP then are you sure the build is right? Not familiar with scrapper, is there something that temporarily gives them massive toughness or negates crits?

I was invited to walk into the traps of a DH in WvW (they sent me a party invite and asked if I’d be so kind).

I did the honours and received 26k of damage. Unfort a rebuild was issued before I could go back and try out dodging through (not met these before yet, so new to me) and a duel to see how it went

It was as tiny bit of an “oooo” moment though. I’d heard the stories, but until seeing it…

Found a lot of 1v1 duels since guard stacks were removed to be easier (playing as a thief). Now that can be utterly circumstantial as they’re not the same players obviously, but I was surprised that I was beating ele’s, mesmers and guardians (some, not all )

I was hoping for a more “star wars kid” type fighting style – for the giggles It should be April 1st gag every year – all thieves staff animations go full star wars kid.

Update – tried playing more in home borders and I don’t wish to criticise as the effort that’s gone in is probably substantial.

But it just feels like EOTM 2.0 and I hate it. I’m now playing in EB, which I didn’t really like doing before – but I never play in EOTM.

I need to grind in PvE to get to things that may make my game more balanced against opposition… but willpower has gone, caring about map objectives has gone; I simply don’t give a flying monkeys ankitten ot going to be logging into WvW for a while.

edit wow, the swear filter things three words which put together have a 4 letter non swear word in it to require filtering to kitten. It about sums up my current thoughts of Anet – flawed.

Challenge on the new Borderlands. Go to “Hardened Waypoint” – starting from outside the fort (so directly below outside gate)… you’ve 30s to reach the vista.
GO.

Hold up Darwinia – it’s entirely possible people are playing the expansion story line to get the hero points for elite and/or just something different to do.

If it’s still dead by next weekend then maybe there’s an issue to look at. Currently i’ve spent all my time in the new stuff and not a lot in the BL’s because… well, it’s quiet, the new stuff is … new and needs exploring – and right now seems ideal as it’s quiet!

The screenshot of damage is 24k, translating to 12k with the changes if not dodged and crits. On the ranger forum someone says that pet can get up to 25 stacks of might which may be what we’re seeing in the above?

So I wouldn’t assume it’ll always deal 12k of damage if you don’t dodge – it may be dependant upon other factors (vulnerability, stacks of might etc) that we’re unaware of. But those things in PvE are annoying as I use most of my dodges… so a rapidfire after that may become un-dodgeable without being Daredevil (not got required hero points yet).

Pnoi.8903:

YO, this is how ALL pets should be like, considering the amount of damage ranger DOESN’T have because its split with the pet. I’m just glad this pet actually hit targets now!

Its pretty much a l2p issue at this point, just you know… dodge. Oh yeah and revenants, can’t forget them… oh reapers… scrappers… LOL

How many dodges do people have? For low health pool classes we dodge the rapidfire as that near kills us if we don’t… and not every class has access to protection, blocks or other means of damage mitigation! If there’s a bug which made this strong and it got fixed then so be it!

I’ve yet to come across this so no idea what it’s like really but if something is overpowered then standing pointing at another class and going “but they are” doesn’t suddenly mean yours isn’t or that it shouldn’t be addressed! It is possible that many things will need a tweak to balance things well, so post about those concerns of yours on those classes.

I thought his posts were all about driving traffic to his twitch channel, and his post titles are clickbait to help that.

Thief has excellent condi pressure, it just doesn’t have a condi “bomb” (imo). The trap gives said condi bomb – albeit slower acting. Condi thief requires near constant hits to put it’s pressure, but it reapplies a condi (or stacks existing ones) on every single attack.

A condi thief is definitely a build that chips away at an opponent, and not a direct burst – hence being able to shadow-step away whilst putting on the torment.

A doubled up needle trap provides that “burst” on top of sustained pressure for normal condi builds. It’s compounded by then being able to stay in stealth throughout.

Remove that extra trap and i do think a trapper thief will need to use other condi pressure (through weapons) in order to get the kill, rather than just traps and dodges. That’d prevent this non stop stealth condi build from being … non stop stealth. Not unless it was happy with not actually killing anything.

This wouldn’t require a change to the runes, wouldn’t require a change to the traps – and therefore not interfere with others builds. If a change was made to traits, perhaps give a little extra condi flavour somehow (perhaps a condi application on crit chance considering condi builds often have low precision (think mine was 8%?), to give a potential incentive to build change for that bonus!)

So this is going to try and be helpful – very aware that people are having the “BUT IT’S NOT WHAT I AM USED TO” feeling at present; myself included. However, this is how it feels currently.

My main concern/observation/complaint simply distills down to:

Just because I can see where I want to go on a map, doesn’t mean I can actually get there. The distances are large with some (to those not knowing the maps) no clear indication/route on how to get there. That causes frustration.

ArchonWing.9480:

• Describe a typical hour for you in the Alpine Borderlands in the past. For example, What size of group were you running in? What kind of tasks did you run? What activities did you do?

A typical hour on the home borderland consisted of:
1) Flipping or defending camps.
2) Checking upgrade status of keeps, build siege (where applicable and likely to get refreshed), kick off upgrades (where applicable on objectives I didn’t think would get flipped within 10 minutes anyway).
3) Escorting dollies where necessary/needed to help upgrades complete.
4) Actively engaging the enemy.
5) Moaning about being ganked by 2-5 vs 1 player and moaning about spending gold on upgrades when no-one else is willing.

Rarely follow open mic commanders, work solo or in small grps of up to 5 in a party.

ArchonWing.9480:

• Compare your experience described above with a typical hour spent in Eternal Battlegrounds, if you went there at all. Does your style of play change between the 2 maps?

Play style does change as EB tends to be a much busier map. Basically flip/upgrade camps and forts close to spawn if I’m going solo – then harry/harrass enemy camps/guards/individuals. Generally do NOT sit in camps or forts to defend, just roam and engage at will. Otherwise I’d follow commander and collect loot bags/karma. Never in a small party.

ArchonWing.9480:

• Compare your experiences described above with an hour spent in the new borderlands.

I can’t currently – I spent about 20 minutes and got bored from all the running and not knowing where the heck I’m going, getting lost, trying to navigate way with up/down all over. I’ve not given it a fair try as I just found the size, lack of knowing where I was going, irritating.

ArchonWing.9480:

• Describe the nature of combat in the borderlands in the past. How have the new borderlands impacted this paradigm for you? What style or build changes might it cause? For example, knocking people off cliffs or into lava might play a more important role.

Nature of combat was originally plenty of roaming 1v1, small groups etc. Lately it’s rare you get a 1v1, it’s multiple vs 1.

So far on the new borderlands… well, I didn’t see a single enemy in the 20 odd minutes I spent there (home border admittedly). Then again I didn’t really know where i was going and spent several minutes running around trying to find a way “up” to continue forwards.

ArchonWing.9480:

• In your experience, compare the time it takes take a structure or objective here, then it did in the past.

Can’t comment on the home borders – not done enough there. But on EB with the new auto upgrades during a quiet period it was impossible to take a keep once it started upgrading. The supplies aren’t used (or appear not to be) during upgrade, so defenders could just drop one ac in a position you can’t hit – and you’re done. That’s quite irritating. It used to be that an upgrading structure could run out of supply and defenders arrive with only what they carry; no such issue any more.

Interesting to see how this goes forward though with night capping… there’s a real chance that on our BL server (with a very sparse population overnight) we’ll log on to find T3 keeps on home borders held by opposition, and insufficient numbers to flip it back until the evening. But that’s a guess, need to see how it fairs in reality.

ArchonWing.9480:

• How is the loot and wxp for you compared to in the past? Will it be able to sustain whatever you are doing? Did it take a hit, or was it improved? If you are planning to unlock an elite specialization, do you think you were helped or hurt in these regards? Do you think you could pursue any other in-game goals just by playing WvW?

Insufficient experience so far to really comment; slightly confused by all the changes.

ArchonWing.9480:

• How will the map change impact the long sessions (multiple hours) you spend in WvW?

I’ve started playing some PvE today… something I hadn’t done for months previously. This may change once populations pick up again though and I finally put some effort into the new maps – so don’t think it’s too kitten ing.

ArchonWing.9480:

• In 100 words or less, describe how the new BLs could be improved.

Sign posts, less running, not seen any lord signal (i.e. their health) inside forts yet.

ArchonWing.9480:

• In 100 words or less, describe how the borderlands work to a new WvW player.

It feels like a virtual exercise class… without an instructor telling you what to do.

ArchonWing.9480:

• In 100 words or less, describe how the borderlands work to a veteran WvW player that is new to the maps.

Like a virtual exercise class…

ArchonWing.9480:

• Which map am I most likely to find you currently, if you’re on Gw2?

EB… which considering I only went there whenever my favourite commander was having fun, is surprising. However, doesn’t mean I won’t try home border out…. needs some time and non over-reactionary behaviour to actually give it a fair try… and population on the server.

The sheer size means I logged in, got annoyed it took 10 minutes to navigate my way to the bottom forts, then couldn’t for the life of me find my way to the “lord” for another 30s…

MUDse.7623:

removing that trap from heal also affects any condi build not just perma stealth so what do u want to give the thief in return?

Nothing really… it’s relatively OP and not talking perma stealth but for condi in general.

As I said way back in this thread (seeing as I main thief and have played trapper build) – traited, built, food’d up – that’s a heal which can do 10k condi damage to the opponent.

Gotejjeken.1267:

Just make it so thieves can’t use trapper runes. Problem solved!

Condi trapper thief was viable with other runes than trapper – I killed two warriors with a trapper build using krait runes; true they weren’t that great, but I accessed stealth by other means and dodged/sb5 most of their attacks.

The “easy” access stealth just means you’re very difficult to find.

I fought a condi trapper thief last night in wvw as a power thief; I was never that close to death – though he was, just couldn’t quite get the last few blows in. After about 8 minutes of fighting I think we’d both got bored.

The thing is realising… dropped traps show animation even if they’re stealthed, and there is a sound; so you can see where traps are dropped IF they’re dropping them around you.

You can dodge into that trap space to invalidate their traps (sets them off without hitting) though obviously doesn’t invalidate their stealth.

As d/p I also had easy access to blinds, which again will invalidate a trap (blind = miss) if they try dropping it on you or you teleport to them with pistol 3 and their response is to drop a trap.

As a warrior I had to run away – as I had burned through all of my condi removal and not really done much in return. Got a few stuns in with the hammer, but could never capitalise fast enough due to their high health.

I’m not a fan of a small damage on the trap to reveal because it affects any thief build using a trap – perma stealth or otherwise. However, traps are deadly on a condi build if you don’t cleanse.

A suggestion would be to remove the thief trait “drop trap on use of heal skill”. That’d remove 3s of stealth and one deadly trap – it synergizes too well with a condi thief build and I think gives far more damage than anticipated; those traps can do 10k condi damage if not cleansed, and since most people will use cleanses on a trap – two traps staggered at 12s = well… try keeping up with that eh. Remove that trait and suddenly they’ve got just 1 needle trap (every 24s) instead.

I agree. There’s nothing about what you’re running, what your build is, what their build is, what traits and more are. Just, as always, “I lost to thief so it’s clearly unbalanced”.

When’s the bug that nerfs withdraw going to be changed.

Or can someone just say if it’s not a bug, it’s correct, just the tooltip that’s wrong.

It’d be really nice if for once there was a bit of communication on this stuff. Getting really tired of Anet’s methodology.

It should all average out – if thieves loose that much then the thieves should decrease in population as they surely want to win PvP. Therefore you’ll get fewer in the matchups.

Additionally, is it not rare to get multiple in a single match? If it isn’t a common occurrence, then you’re asking them to make changes to address a single class in an uncommon situation. Out of … I’ve no idea how many recently, only 1 had 3 thieves and I commented that I’m happy for them to try despite knowing people complain.

We lost. But that was 1 out of… dozens of matches, and whilst we lost it’s an insufficient sample size to say it’s always the case; lose about 50% of matches anyway.

I also remember playing against 5 engies once. They lost.

Puck.9612:

…..To remain in stealth without spending a bunch of initiative. Do you drop your shadow refuge directly in front of an enemy that has the ability to aoe bomb the crap out of it or knock you out with a cc, or do you try to get to get to a relatively safe spot to drop it?

Since the discussion seems to be over your head let me break it down for you Barney style.

Perma stealth with indicators that takes all of a thief’s initiative to keep up and is no threat to anyone= fine.
Perma stealth with a bunch of CC and condi damage that easily kills other players= broken

Best way to fix this= add direct damage to needle trap and tripwire

Right – read your posts again kitten . You claim thieves should “run away to drop traps away from anyone in order to stay in stealth”.

Then when I point out that you’re now saying thieves should use an offensive weapon only to ‘stay in stealth’ which is fricken dumb as they’ve far better alternatives which won’t risk revealing them.

Now you’re saying “But you don’t drop shadow refuge infront of your enemy” – so how are you going to “run away somewhere to drop a trap where it won’t be triggered”. Are you going to MAGIC your way? Or are you going to drop one of those traps that’ll fricken REVEAL you to ‘sneak away in stealth’. Or are you going to tootle pip run over behind something, in full view, and drop a trap to stealth up… at which point your enemy just keeps running to the last point they saw you and instantly reveals you. That’s really intelligent is it not (seriously Anet – if I put an apostrophed version of the is it not – it’s censored? Crikey).

That’s why I ask if you either read what you post or think.

Why on earth would I take a trap that’ll reveal me as a defensive mechanism. You’re scraping the bottom of the barrel for “explanations” as to how it can still be used. Why – to gain stealth… when i’ve got to get somewhere to use it where it won’t get triggered? If I manage that I don’t need fricken stealth!

Now to why I don’t think you actually think when posting. Why the very heck would I take it when I could just take a shadow step trap and activate it to teleport out of the area.

Your suggestions are either substantially flawed or substantially bettered by what thieves already have.

Puck.9612:

you could still use your weapon skills to disengage and stealth, and then move to a safe spot to drop traps where no one will trigger them.

Are you reading your posts… why would you run away in stealth to drop traps in stealth where no-one will trigger them – utter ridiculous insanity. Why not just make them do no condi’s instead?

Drop shadow refuge, use steal (3s stealth), use d/p. You can’t keep 100% stealth without d/p by the way. And people say thieves can keep 100% stealth with d/p already… so again you’re targeting traps over perma stealth when they don’t cause it; it exists.

I don’t think you know what’s the problem – is it the trap, the condi’s or the stealth. Your responses indicate you’ve no coherent issue/answer; you’re grasping at a straw “DESTROY TEH TRAPS”.

If perma stealth is the issue, then it needs looking at to address that.

Alternative solutions to your concerns:
1) Reduce conditions on traps – they’re not as deadly and therefore won’t kill; thief will need to do more which will include getting revealed as they’d need to apply condi’s another way.

2) Increase cooldown on traps. If instead of once every 25s they drop them once every 35s … it should address your issues. If your issue is perma stealth, then maybe not. But is it permastealth or doing damage from stealth? If the latter, then they’re 40% less effective just by changing the cooldown.

Your only elected solution is telling; you have thieves. Period.

Puck.9612:

Yes I have. Losing 1 condi every 3 seconds while avoiding every player targeted condi skill is not a sacrifice.

Takes 3s to lose 1 condition, starting after 3s. Without shadowstep or signet of agility, your only means to remove confusion and torment are via stealth.

It takes 1s to stealth (even with hide in shadows) and if you’re not running hide in shadows, then burn can be added to the list to remove.

A burn/confusion bomb can kill you before your stealth removes the condition. Simple fact. Compared to shadowstep and signet of agility (instant removals) – whilst hide in shadows offers a good degree of condition removal it also doesn’t remove those movement impairing conditions – meaning the thief was where you saw them upon application.

Since it can take up to 4s to remove a burn/confusion bomb (and assuming it removes the most damaging condition – otherwise it’s now 7s) if you’ve not used hide in shadows to heal… whilst it’s a good means of removing conditions, it’s not amazing. For example, a warrior swapping weapon sets can remove 2 every 5s whilst still smashing you for massive direct damage IF they’ve a sigil of cleansing on the weapons. That’s more cleansing than a thief’s stealth (but who knows what conditions it’ll remove, so not necessarily damaging ones) and still smacking you hard.

Now add to this that you want thieves revealed on traps… which negates the entire condition removal method you’re talking about; safe to condi bomb the revealed thief as it’ll now be UP to 7s before they can clear 1* condition using stealth.

I’ve said before, happy for a change to be made – but it’s got to be one that’s done right and not just rushed to placate the incessant moaning; you’d quite happily destroy and invalidate an entire build (no matter how boring it is to actually play!) simply to enable you to win against it.

I’ve said elsewhere, you shouldn’t roll one build and expect to win against every build. So one particular thief build can appear to dominate due to a single rune… but changing how the traps work will invalidate traps use for any thief, regardless of rune.

Change the darned rune… but suddenly that means others won’t have as much “fun” playing their traps with the rune. So the idea is to change thief?

Decide – is it the rune that’s the issue here (gives unlimited stealth easy) or just qq over thieves and their stealth. I say that because… the traps will be just as deadly whether you see a thief or not.

*obviously heals and/or use of tricks with trait to remove 1 condition can change that dramatically – but traps aren’t tricks so…

Puck.9612:

A ranger running traps is also sacrificing his condi cleanse since he isn’t able to use his survival skills. .

SO IS A THIEF (to a degree). Have you played the ‘ghost thief’ build at all?

Puck.9612:

A thief’s main job is to decap, super speed + teleports makes for some pretty fast rotations.

For which shadowstep is better for mobility other than shadow trap…

Puck.9612:

While they still won’t be able to 1v1 a few classes they will make short work of the signet necros who rely on transfers to remove their condi’s. For +1’ing a fight, you won’t burst someone as fast as zerk or marauder but you will bring a crap ton of cc and load them up with condi damage, that will be enough to take out most people.

The needle trap does 1 stack of poison and 3 stacks of bleed – admittedly 10s – but it’s not that powerful without the buffs of food/guard stacks/condi stacks (totally 1k damage over 10s as a base). A power thief’s auto attack in a mele is more damaging, and also applies poison. The food for duration and extra condi damage and guard stacks do a LOT for this damage. Obviously building carrion will help, but you’ll be glassy… a few hits and you’ll go down (stealth or not).

The reason dire works so well is that you can have about 24k health.

Puck.9612:

Dire really isn’t necessary with this build since stealth should prevent you from taking a lot of direct damage. A thief will get by just fine with carrion.

Most of my thief kills come whilst they’re in stealth… they pop out in downed state. So stealth isn’t that amazing at damage mitigation.

Puck.9612:

I can see this being about on the same level as burn guardian. Not very effective against organized teams but ridiculously strong in unranked.

I can’t.. .burn guardian can do huge damage in a short time due to burn being very powerful. A trap thief requires 10s to do lots of damage… and that’s without any buffs.

Now I don’t know the full strength as i’m not in pvp – but i can look it up for the traps. I really do think you’re comparing what happens in wvw as if that’s how it’ll be in pvp. It won’t…

Whether celestial will give a nice mix between condi and being able to still do some nice spike damage though is another matter. But to direct damage spike they won’t be invisible.

Puck.9612:

It’s always been very clear that they don’t care about balance in WvW, but now trap runes are being added to PvP. Shouldn’t be too long before they address this bullkitten build.

Without food buffs, condi stacks, guard stacks and dire gear – the trapper build may not be as strong as you think.

Add to that you can neither cap nor decap from stealth either, so that means you cannot protect a point and need to whittle down an opponent (without being able to prior trap) to contest/decap a point.

It may not be quite as bad as you think.

It’ll also be interesting to see what the removal of guard stacks does. That offered both extra vitality and extra condi damage to these builds. Removing that may (for those who manage to cleave them) down them – and for those that can’t – take slightly less condi damage.

I’m almost in favour of increasing the trap timer (as in lay one every 35s instead of 25s). That’s less access to stealth and less access to condi bombs.

vespers.1759:

Oh you just wait until trapper runes come to PVP. Y’all are gonna love ghost thieves.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_jlkY5KR00

Although Anet clearly has a kitten for PVP so maybe this will actually be fixed when it arrives.

Eh? Does pvp allow guard stacks, food buffs and dire stat amulet?
It works in wvw because you can get 2k condi damage as trapper thief. Those traps without all the extra condition damage granted from those (and survivability) means you should wait to see if your premonition becomes true; I don’t think they’ll be as bad (from a thief perspective) as you imagine; there’s incredibly few condi thieves in pvp as it’s a slow attrition which isn’t going to help much. Furthermore you can’t cap a point in stealth, meaning any fight on a point prevents the thief from capping/decapping – so move away, and they become visible in order to cap/decap or are wasting a lot of their teams time by being ineffective.

So what class(es) and build(s) are you using to come up with this (as in what are YOU fighting as… against these).

Increasingly I see people expecting their build to nullify/beat every build of every class in the game. If it doesn’t, they claim it’s not balanced.

At any point in time that the above becomes a reality then the game is actually broken.

Reddie – from what you’re saying I doubt you actually play thief.

vespers.1759:

3k direct damage in full condi gear… lol…

This is kinda my view of how people are complaining about the trap thief It’s similar to being told “thief is fine because it still rolls in top teams in pvp”.

Since this build isn’t top team pvp meta I guess that means it’s underpowered?

I really do think most people here need to try playing the game better than expecting to win against every single build.

reddie.5861:

any1 claiming they use traps too kill is talking bullkitten cus 9 out of the 10 thiefs who use trapper build are using D/P and purely sit back on
A) condition lame dmg
B) backstab.

The entire thread is about people dying without even seeing the opposition. Since direct damage results in a reveal, you’ve just posted a load of utter garbage. The only way they’re not getting revealed is because there’s no physical damage; so that’s no backstabs, not even a dagger hit.

So yes… those players dying without seeing the thief are dying purely from condis – and those are coming from traps.

Ghost Thief perma-stealth is broken. The comparison between invuln and Ghost Thief perma-stealth is laughably ridiculous

So why did you make it? As for “perma-stealth” being a broken mechanic – if you all complain loud enough I’m sure they’ll nerf the traps. Once that’s done, are you going to argue that caltrops should now reveal too?

If a thief cannot do damage from stealth without being revealed – will you be happy? Or do you just want stealth removed because you cannot work out how to fight it yet?

Do you want thieves to get revealed if they apply blind too?

I’m starting to think a lot of people expect to beat every thief they meet – and if they don’t then it’s because it’s a broken cheat class… not because you just can’t play a game

vespers.1759:

It would require a lot more risk to place the second set if he wasn’t invisible the whole time. Obviously when you can see them running up to drop traps you can respond… but I didn’t know he was there until the second ones got thrown at which point it was too late anyway.

You’d be surprised. With a pure condi build and ~24k of health the thief can actually stand right on top of the player whilst the spike hard – drop the traps (visible the entire time) and then dodge out (leaving caltrops). Once guard stacks are removed they can be less bold.

I’m actually all for putting damage back on the traps after some thought. Since they’re on a 25s cooldown about 3k direct damage should suffice.

Straegen.2938:

If warriors could stay invuln’d 56s out of 60s in a fight, I think people would have the same complaint.

Stealth is not invuln… and if you really main thief you’d know that, aside from conditions, you cannot deal direct damage from stealth without being revealed, which prevents stealth for 4s.

Perhaps if all warrior endure pains (x2) and beserker stance (10s of invul to conditions) and healing signet (6s resistance to conditions) stopped the warrior being able to use any form of attack skills (or dealt zero damage for duration of each). After all, warriors can deal large damage whilst invulnerable to incoming damage or conditions.

It used to be 50% reduced damage in stealth… but they rolled it up into other trait and reduced it.

Why should revealed give damage reduction? I don’t think you’ve thought this through at all… c/d, backstab instantly, slash slash, heart seeker heart seeker (i’m safe from damage, it’s 50% less effective so just tank it out) until revealed gone, c/d and backstab instantly again…

May as well just ask for revealed to double your health bar.

IMO it’s an awful suggestion. If d/p is the “only viable build” at present, your suggestion is exponentially making it stronger too and therefore keeps it the strongest/best build.

How about dancing dagger applies blind as well as cripple for a ranged blind – to help dagger offhand builds? I’d rather have it on c/d but you can trait for it.

So what you’re actually say is that perm stealth is the issue, and to address perm stealth you think leave the runes as is and change the traps?

Nuts.

Changing the stealth mechanic – if HS used 1 more init then no more perm stealth in ANY build.

All cry problems solved.

Any of you complaining about thieves tried creating one and ‘dominating’ out in wvw? Apparently its a very easy class, so… awaiting videos of your new found prowess

I have main’d thief for over a year – and admittedly have NOT changed my build in the last 2 months as I’ve been playing warrior.

I find the game far easier as warrior and a LOT more fun.

I still get beaten by some thieves – but that’s because they’re better than I am. It actually happens that some people are just plain better.

I’ve also utterly destroyed thieves and mesmers with warrior too.

Chaba.5410:

Not entirely true. If you make your build completely reliant on Shadow Arts, that’s your weakness. And you didn’t address my statement regarding thief having the best access to stealth.

A thief without shadow arts can die to conditions very quickly. Sure, we can cleanse SOME conditions through other means – but particularly with torment and confusion (heal skills don’t remove) we’d be burning through most utility skills to get rid of, which with confusion, would probably kill us So if running Shadow arts is our weakeness… and it’s a weakness NOT to run them – does that mean thieves are just weak?

A few polite pointers – and a reminder that these apply to ALL classes in the game.

1) Conditions don’t do physical damage and therefore don’t reveal. So Caltrops only do condition damage. I

‘m guessing the moan about engie dodge bomb revealing vs thief caltrops doesn’t… is actually a complaint that the bomb does physical damage? That’s your fault for taking it mate, not ours…

Ask the devs to remove the bombs physical damage.

2) Trapper thieves have 1 type of trap that applies conditions… that’s the needle trap. Traited for – you can put 2 down (one every 25s when using heal). All traps can put 5 stacks of vuln with a trait, but nothing else.

3) Traps are unblockable – goes for all classes I think? Thief traps only do condition damage though too – and don’t blocks just prevent physical damage? (seem to remember shields blocking physical damage not conditions).

4) Changing traps because of a rune is the wrong way to address your concerns. Actually, it’s probably those on the receiving end’sdream solution, but that doesn’t make it the correct way to address the problem.

I personally don’t spend all the time in stealth whatsoever – i’m pressuring you with sb 1/2/4 all the time, evading with 3 and moving with 5. Pressure = distraction, and distraction = not realising you’ve 3s to condi cleanse or die; remarkably effective in 1v1.

5) Revealed does not necessarily destroy the build. Traps are condi bombs which work without stealth. I usually goad players into a trap or drop it on their face (stealthed or not).

Trapper runes do give a VERY accessible means to get into stealth, and further defensive mechanisms (super speed to move out of area AND a trap to stop pursuers).

The easiest way to kill is to leave traps laying around and watch you walk into them from afar whilst having no cooldowns so i can just sb 5 in and drop more ontop of you… with zero stealth needed.

I am semi tempted to point people towards the “burn” condition threads where we get told conditions are no issue. Since these trap thieves do no direct damage, only conditions, and conditions aren’t an issue… what’s the complaining?

Yes, I think it’s a very very strong build and very evil too. Fair? About as fair as having enough life to withstand 3s of 8 burn stacks, and having a condi cleanse that only removes them after 3s if you’ve not got the right heal or shadow step up

vespers.1759:

Chips.7968:

I’ve already posted the precise series of events, traps and actions the thief took in this instance.

Yet people are discussing whether the traps should reveal. To be crystal fricken clear – the outcome would have been exactly the same. He wasn’t killed by stealth, he wasn’t killed by direct damage (backstab) from stealth.

He was killed by conditions.

Period, that’s it, that’s all. Whether the thief was visible and sb away would make no odds at all. He doesn’t need to be in stealth to drop the trap – he can pre-cast and steal to have it land on arrival. You couldn’t have avoided that either unless you started dodging instantly after the cleanse. All that placing a trap does is grant you stealth with the trapper runes and some super speed to move away; other runes would increase condi damage.

Seriously, the stealth isn’t the problem on this – the double condi bomb ability of off-cooldown traps (from being prelaid) are. Ranger can do the same if I’m not mistaken…

Nope the issue is the stealth because I had zero idea he was there. can’t activate pet…. can’t use any weapon skills… etc.

You do realise he wasn’t phyiscally there at the time you tripped the first traps. From then on you were dead. Stealth didn’t kill you, the re-application of condi heavy traps did.

I’ve laid traps and fought whilst revealed by “sic em” and the ranger died. It negated my shadow refuge, it negated stealth on a trap being laid… the ranger still died.

Video available if required Trapper thief 1v1 in wvw with stacks is incredibly powerful.

I’ve already posted the precise series of events, traps and actions the thief took in this instance.

Yet people are discussing whether the traps should reveal. To be crystal fricken clear – the outcome would have been exactly the same. He wasn’t killed by stealth, he wasn’t killed by direct damage (backstab) from stealth.

He was killed by conditions.

Period, that’s it, that’s all. Whether the thief was visible and sb away would make no odds at all. He doesn’t need to be in stealth to drop the trap – he can pre-cast and steal to have it land on arrival. You couldn’t have avoided that either unless you started dodging instantly after the cleanse. All that placing a trap does is grant you stealth with the trapper runes and some super speed to move away; other runes would increase condi damage.

Seriously, the stealth isn’t the problem on this – the double condi bomb ability of off-cooldown traps (from being prelaid) are. Ranger can do the same if I’m not mistaken…