Your 30k dps are clearly dps golem values and it becomes clear you’ve never actually played power mesmer in a raid, I have.
Guess what, even with a simple rotation which takes about 10 seconds to reach peak damage (which is insanely long compared to classes like elementalist or guardian who peak at the start of their rotation) we are dead last on just about every boss unless your dps are terrible players.
That’s not entirely true. In almost every raid fight there are mechanics you have to deal with. As a Power Mesmer (and Condi Mesmer) you can focus on the mechanics and still have DPS. Additionally, for fights like Sabetha, you don’t lose ramp time for each boss because your Phants stay (Condi still needs to ramp condis, though).
I would say that Power Mes is best run vs: VG and Sab, while doing decently at KC, Sloth, Cairn, MO, and being decent at best against Matthias.
For KC, you shouldn’t be top DPS, because if you are then you need better squadmates.
For VG and Sab, it’s “acceptable” because of the mechanics. VG has constant movement and requires CC, both of which Power Mesmer laughs at. For Sabetha, you can res, kick bombs, throw bombs, and avoid flame walls without hurting your DPS. Additionally, your Phants will retarget onto the new bosses when they come in, and then back onto Sabetha when she returns.
Sloth is nice because you have a lot of utilities available to you, and if you need to dodge/res/poison/etc, you’ll still have DPS. If you eat a Mushroom, however, you have to restart your ramp. It’s notable that it’s easy to hit higher relative DPS on Sloth because you have constant DPS while focusing on surviving. However, a selfish build on a fight like Sloth is not always great, and Power Mesmer lacks self-sufficiency, so you’ll need to be on good terms with your healers to stay alive if things go sour.
Cairn allows you to do good damage (easily top), but the downside to Cairn is if you accidentally get Shared Agony you will be spamming mantras for a minute. It is entirely possible to force yourself not to get Shared Agony, but things happen and losing 55% of your DPS for a minute is pretty harsh.
MO you’re able to get good DPS and move without hampering your rotation too much (you might cancel a few BF, big deal). However, only 60% of your DPS is cleave, so it might be better to run other damage dealers.
Matthias is awkward because there’s so many mechanics. As a Power Mes (not Chrono) you’ll have free reign over your utilities (Feedback, Signet of Domination) to support the team. However, there will be many points where you don’t attack due to the way the fight works. Thus, your DPS will heavily rely on RNG whereas running Condi allows you to constantly damage (unless you need to do Poison/Corrupts). Typically, Power and Condi will have the same damage output here, unlike most fights where Power is generally better.
Honestly, the only people in raids that peak faster than me are Guardians and after ~20s my DPS matches or tops theirs (PF ramp time). Elementalists definitely can surpass Power Mes DPS, but it requires skill (something most players, including me, lack) and also opportunities for things such as precasting (see: KC burn phase).
Check out this raid report from ~3 hours ago. First phase, I hit just under 29k DPS, although VG phase 1 is a golem battle. In the second and third phase, because I have to deal with mechanics (see: moving, avoiding blues while moving, CC) my DPS drops but sits around 24k.
Admittedly, some of the other DPS players do have to go to Green circles while I just twiddle my thumbs and auto attack, but not every DPS player is doing that, and it’s usually DPS that can still do something from afar.
I mean… that’s like being skeptical to buy a burger because you don’t know if they use Heinz Ketchup or Hunt’s. If you choose not to buy PoF because the elite spec of one of the professions isn’t what you want, that is.
Independent of which, it’s still always better to not buy into pre-order culture, and instead just buy after release.
You don’t exactly order that burger 10 weeks in advance without even knowing you’ll want a burger on that day, either. If someone values their main’s elite spec enough to be unsure whether they can enjoy the expansion if it (expectably) turns out to be rubbish, then that’s a very valid reason to not throw money at a company for an unreleased product.
Again, you’re judging the entire product on one topping.
We have about 120 devs working on the live game, 70 devs on Expac2, and 30 devs on core teams that support both. Within these groups we have cross-discipline teams with focused missions. For example on Live we have the PvP team, the WvW team, the Fractals team, the Raids team, the Living World team, the Legendaries team, and a couple others. The teams are charged with carrying a feature from inception and design through completion. When they finish, we typically package work from multiple teams into a single release, then we hand it off to release teams for final voice integration, localization, QA, and release management.
What I can say is that we are working towards completing the entire set of 16 HoT legendary weapons (sorry underwater). Of the 13 left, they are all in various stages of concept, modeling and design, but the two that are furthest along in development are the Short Bow and the Mace.
Also, note the awkward phrasing:
This team of developers will instead shift their efforts back to Living World style content, building new journeys and events for everyone to participate in.
Which does not mean that another team couldn’t have picked it right back up.
I have to disagree with mirrors lasting long enough. I was not able to participate in the stress test, but unless they buffed the duration, 4 seconds is nowhere near enough time.
It depends on the use. As a melee Mirage, I had no problem coordinating my Mirrors. My problem was if I wanted to be fancy and hold a Mirror, I never knew how long I could hold it. From afar, I can see it being a problem, and I still dislike Sand through Glass. But from a melee POV, I felt like False Oasis, Glass Shards, and Sand through Glass gave you ample time to retrieve it.
Of course, that doesn’t mean that they’re a good mechanic. I think they should be seen as something akin to Illusion retarget, as opposed to a (supposedly) main mechanic like Mirage Cloak.
Much like with legendary armor total w8 time for first set was 2 years if they ever made a new one it would be around 1 maybe less.
Actually they are not making another.
So by your comparison, they buffed scepter and won’t buff axe.
for 1 i said “if”. Also, they also said that legendary weapons were suspended right after chuka (or before idr) and here we are 6 legendaries later.
They said collections were suspended because they took too much time to make and if things broke it took a lot of manpower to fix. That’s why all the newer legendaries don’t have any collections attached to them. You just make weapons.
Going back to the main topic (and in no particular order):
I further tested things in the stress and what I said before is still true.
DE + IH works as expected, clones spawned from DH will ambush.
IAmbush and AoSymmetry seem to place you around yourself with their range of 1200/600 respectively. It actually feels like their blink distance is half of their listed/castable distance and should be noted that I was usually shunted ~600/300 respectively.
E.g: AoS may put you behind where you were when targeting an enemy in front of you.
Note: AoS is the only blink in Mirage that does not require you to be in range of an enemy. This allows it to be used during Raids to retarget (eg Gors/Sam) since the smaller range makes it safer to use.
Crystal Sands gets caught on terrain, although sometimes shards may spawn and move under the terrain instead of getting caught and destroyed. Average shard to reach center was ~3 (eyeball numbers, had as low as 1, and as high as 6, mostly 2-4). Unless you have a reason to have a dodge ready, ambush, or can’t attack (melee?), there’s little reason to cast this.
Sand through Glass doesn’t feel terrible in PvE except that I managed to get interrupted by damage, putting it on full CD. (???)
Mirage Advance feels so bad. If you want to use it, run Blink.
Jaunt feels so bad. If you want to use it, run Blink.
As stated elsewhere: Superspeed only affects you running forward. I managed to test side-stepping, backpedaling, and even ExecAxing. Side-stepping and backpedaling do not get affected by positive movespeeds. ExecAxing does get affected by movespeed, but is irrelevant because non-mounted out of combat movespeed is capped at the same speed as Swiftness and the axe cannot be used in combat.
Axe skills feel clunky in their damage, but mostly feel clunky in their exection. Axe2 is the most damage you’ll get in the weapon, but you can’t use it in combination with Phantasms. Also, it doesn’t like to be consistent when it gets caught on terrain, so you can’t maximize your damage with it unless you cast it against a wall or something similar, unlike other charges (camera facing ground, no target chosen). Axe3 is pitiful damage, but takes 0.75s to get out (including the leap, if it hits). If it hits, it’s better than any of the autos. If it hits.
Crystal Oasis feels bad because it’s a slow heal so you have to use it pre-emptively (although it also gives you a Mirror). Looks good on paper for PvP, but it doesn’t feel that helpful when used.
Mirrors lasted long enough. My main concern is there’s no way to know how long they’re up for so you don’t know where you need to be going (although having a predictable path based on objects on the ground isn’t nice for non-PvE).
TFW you down during story instance because you dodge backwards trying to get out of the Hammer of Doom and end up just backpedaling at 105 speed (run speed = 210 in combat, superspeed = 400, walking = 80). Oh boy.
I wasn’t doing a lot of damage to the enemies in PvE (exclusively Axe). Sure they died fast, but it was like trying to cut construction paper with kid-friendly dull scissors. Especially when fighting the raid squads alone. It also felt like I didn’t have a lot of survivability, but that could be me not being used to mcing myself. I had a significantly easier time during the Beta weekend with a Power Mesmer than a Condi Mirage (could be due to comfort/knowledge of play since I’m bad with Mirdodges).
Mirage Thrust feels good, not because it’s strong, but because it’s a leap.
IAmbush can put you outside of range of your target (if using Axe) and not facing your target. To account for this you must spam 1 to ambush or risk missing the window.
Infact can we get into this great delusion that Anet are going to buff the numbers? It took 5 years for them to give us a decent damage % trait and we are still dead last in DPS builds, even without taking into account how our mechanics don’t mesh with PvE. We are still waiting for CD reductions, buffs to weak auto attacks and the laughable damage of the weak attacks slapped on to Phantasm summoning skills.
But something that took you 3 hours to cook you can finish in 10 minutes if you keep at it.
/s
It also doesn’t help that Mesmer damage isn’t that great to begin with because of how bursty the class is as a whole, I feel like Mesmer could be way better in raids if there were legit burn phases where the Mesmer could just unload everything when they’re vulnerable and let their spikey game style get more mileage.
You hwot. Burn phases hurt condi builds more than power builds. Also “Mesmer spikey gamestyle”’s burst is about the same as other professions sustained DPS.
I mean sure, there’s phantasms for sustain, and that builds pretty good, but our condi doesn’t have that sorta luxury.
Also, has anyone tested our condi builds damage after torment and confusion have been reworked in PvE?
At best (boss doesn’t move or use abilities), it increases our DPS by <25%. At worst (boss moves and uses abilities), it does nothing.
Are you saying our spike damage averages out to the other classes sustain? Or that our spike is very low? And for the burn phase I was more just thinking for shatter builds, not necessarily condi, idk how to help our condi build in PvE without just splitting all the skills so we aren’t obscene in other aspects of the game.
Our spike is low. Also you don’t shatter during burn phases (and the only true burn phase is KC).
Pretty much. Bcause they havent sold me the box yet because of how weaker the gen 2 soec seem compaired to gen1. Which tbf its understandable.
+1 in that case.
Always better to avoid the pre-order hype, and buy after release if reviews show that the software has what you actually wanted.
I mean… that’s like being skeptical to buy a burger because you don’t know if they use Heinz Ketchup or Hunt’s. If you choose not to buy PoF because the elite spec of one of the professions isn’t what you want, that is.
You can’t use Sword3 in the middle of Sword2. Using Sword3 on someone stunned from Shield5 is redundant in most cases. Using Shield5 does not help you get your Moa out, as they’re probably evading your Shield5 and therefore your Moa. Citing CS is irrelevant, because that’s not a cover skill, it gives you a free cast and is quite literally it’s purpose (that’s like saying the use of Mimic to cast Blink means you waste 2 skills).
I don’t know what Mantra you’re running to be able to make the difference between a kill and a death, so if you’d like to give an example, that’d be nice.
So you’re assuming that Mirage is going to be good because it’s a possibility that they can make changes?
Mantras are not a risk rework (reward?) ability. That’s what they function as on paper, but the in-combat cast doesn’t really exist and the reward is not worth the risk. Saying that you can dodge to get it out means that you’re using another ability to get it out. It’s actually very similar to saying: “Well, Mantras are very strong because you can just cast them in stealth.” That’s entirely true, but it also means you’re using a (long) stealth cooldown to get out a Mantra, which is usually not worth that much.
Additionally, since apparently that statement was confusing: Just because something bad has the possibility of being changed, does not make it good or desirable in their current state.
Mirage cloak doesn’t actually fix Mantras being clunky. It’s a band-aid to help you get it out, but it doesn’t address the weak return on a 2.5s cast time, nor the lack of synergy with charges and runes. (Also: Mantra of Recovery doesn’t count as a heal skill, only the charges do.)
Saying that things can be changed doesn’t resolve anything. Anything can be changed, but that doesn’t make them good or desirable.
Do you really believe GW2 balance is as easy as cooking a meal? Also, I think you aren’t going to cut down a recipe from 3 hours to 10 minutes, that’s usually called raw food.
(edited by Esplen.3940)
Feedback for this skill was that it was underwhelming so i expect a defensive componment to be added. No, you cant say that to everything that broken clunky or bugged (except similar cases with other elite specs). Simply because they are selling an expac on these ones.
Mirrors feel clunky, they can be fixed.
Axe skills feel clunky, they can be fixed.
Ambushes feel clunky, they can be fixed.
Shatters feel clunky, they can be fixed.
Mantras feel clunky, they can be fixed.
Master of Manipulation + Mass Invisibility feels clunky, it can be fixed.
Mirage traits feel clunky, they can be fixed.
I’m fairly certain it’s applicable, but it doesn’t respond to a discussion.
Ahh my bad thought u were refering at axe 2. Ye i remember that skill being clunky even tho iv see it be sucessfully performed wven if you dont face the target. Still it just needs some polish to work so not much work there.
You can say that to anything that’s broken, bugged, or even clunky. That doesn’t change anything.
Also, if you want to talk about Axe2, it’s kind of a bad skill because it almost forces you to dodge while using it. It’s a dash attack that doesn’t provide any defensive options. There are many small dashes similar to that, but almost every single one of them provide you with some defense (there is one exception).
Death’s Charge destroys projectiles and blinds foes.
Surge of the MIsts is an evade and knocks back foes.
Death Blossom is an evade.
Whirlwind Attack is an evade.
Weakening Charge is the only exception, but it does almost double the damage of Lingering Thoughts and doesn’t hamper the Daredevils damage output (see: LT summons a clone).
Axes of Symmetry is Axe3. You get placed randomly around your target and may not be in range of Axe auto attacks, as well as not facing your target (and therefore not leaping/applying 5 Confusion +1 Phantasmal Seeking Axe if traited).
It is a random reposition tool.
You might want to add some context. You listed 4 instances where you have encounters and now you’re talking about phases and the last 2 bosses without referring to which instance.
I wouldnt bet money on axe 2 staying like that for long much like scepter was chatged insee this changing as well.
It took them 3.33 years to make that change.
Ah yes, the ole’ “moving is fine because you’re moving”. Our downed 2 is amazing, I agree.
Honestly, Axe is an awkward weapon. Axe auto attacks are kinda weak (although the final auto is much better than the final Scepter auto). You can’t really use Axe2 without breaking Phantasms, and it’s a burst ability (woo). Axe3 takes longer than the 0.75s to come out because it also has a leap after the cast/teleport, and you can potentially get put into damage or other things. Lastly, if you get caught on terrain/face the wrong way, or something else happens to prevent the leap, you wasted a huge amount of time and didn’t get the 5 Confusion (which means you’re better off auto attacking). So you’ll want to spam an attack that may misfire on you because the stronger attack (Axe2) hurts your dps.
Cd is too long and you can’t retarget them onto Sam without suiciding.
Boss 2 and 3 for S/O won’t work because the bosses disappear and reappear so you’d still have to resummon. Deimos prides aren’t killed unless they’re close, so that’s a pretty irrelevant point (they should be immob “stunned”). Chaos Fractals boss the retarget won’t be up after mobs are dead, so you’d have to retarget them onto the Anomaly, lowering your encounter dps.
(edited by Esplen.3940)
Actually, after the adrenaline change last patch, core war is par with berserker war IMO. Which is great.
Personally I think core guard is better than DH.
Both for spvp at best, please note the game mode you are making statements about since the usuall game mode on the non pvp forum is pve.
As far as pve, that statement is so far from the truth it hurts.
Oh I’m sorry I missed the part where you can dodge mid cast without interrupting as well as the part of Mirage that disallows them to use signets, sword, and the domination line.
The whole point of giving us a worse dodge is so we can carry on attacking while dodging. Mesmer provides better tools to do it. Mirage is pointless.
No need to be so confrontational.
Mesmer doesn’t give us better tools to do it though since we can use all of those tools while also having the tools the Mirage has, that’s what my post was saying.
Mirage doesn’t prevent you from using ANY of those tools from the core class, the only thing it takes away is the short roll from dodging, but if you really need that mobility you can trade out your elite for jaunt.
Mirage also takes an entire traitline and replaces it with a completely worthless one that has no throughput or group support traits outside the single two grandmasters.
So, yes, you are most definitely losing something by taking Mirage.
You’re not directly losing something it’s opportunity cost, this wasn’t an argument over “what’s better at support Mirage or Mesmer?” This was “Mesmer is better at evading while attacking” which is blatantly false. If your goal is to be offensive while being hard to hit you’d want Mirage over base Mesmer, and for that role you sacrifice very little.
That’s not what you said though. you exactly said:
Mirage doesn’t prevent you from using ANY of those tools from the core class
and in this case that is untrue since you can’t take 3 core traitlines with mirage thus you are effectively not able to use all your core abilities. Mirage is competing for a traitline slot and is barely better than the core trailines, which is the actual problem here.
Mirage does not prevent him from taking sword, signers, or the domination line as my original quote was talking about. But nice try.
And the elite specs really shouldn’t be that much stronger than the core specs, they should give a different playstyle, not an upgrade, just as Anet said they wanted it to be. The problem is they kittened up balance wise on the first batch and now everyone thinks elite specs are supposed to be a mandatory upgrade for you based on your role.
Well theres the problem isn’t it. You have two choices Durzlla
1) Elite Specs are better then core: Mirage is useless because its weaker then core Mesmer.
2) Elite Specs are sidegrades to core with new ways to play: Mesmer already has better tools to dodge while attacking, Mirage adds no new ways to play.
Still waiting for an answer to this.
Sorry, thought I had replied to this.
1) I fully agree with you if elite specs are supposed to be better than core, Mirage has low numbers, I’m not arguing with that, I just assumed the numbers would be buffed.
2) I disagree that Mirage is worse at dodging and attacking, since it literally does that better with the new dodge mechanic on top of what mes already has. will say that it’s got worse mobility than Mesmer though.
1) The mechanics are fundementally broken. Unless they buff the numbers up so Mirage axe is some auto attacking beast and you ignore most of what the elite spec offers but even then you will just end up a worse DD.
2) It adds no new ways to play. Mesmer provides ways to avoid damage while still attacking and then has dodges for when you need to move away from where you are. Mirage takes those dodges away.
The mobility of mirage is higher lmao. Also mesmer has 2 ways to avoid dmg and 1 of them forces you do use a specific skill which locks you in a specific action (exluding blocks because im talking about evade like effects).
The mobility of mirage might be higher, but the in combat damage avoidance is worse compared to core mesmer. Which of both is more important do you think?
Mesmer has tons of ways of avoiding damage. If you are refering to dodging (an action which the entire game and every class is balanced and designed around the way it is implemented normaly) then no, mirage does not provide an upgrade, this was disscussed often enough in this thread. The reasons why it’s worse as mirage were given and not yet refuted so simply stating “it’s better” provides no value to the disscussion.
What does mirage lose in dmg avoidance compaired to core memser?
Repositioning.
How so? I can move just fine when i would dodge with mirage. Maybe you experienced a bug or something.
Superspeed only affects walking forward. It does not affect sidestepping, or backpedaling.
Axes of Symmetry, Illusionary Ambush, and Mirage Advance don’t give you control over where you end.
It also doesn’t help that Mesmer damage isn’t that great to begin with because of how bursty the class is as a whole, I feel like Mesmer could be way better in raids if there were legit burn phases where the Mesmer could just unload everything when they’re vulnerable and let their spikey game style get more mileage.
You hwot. Burn phases hurt condi builds more than power builds. Also “Mesmer spikey gamestyle”’s burst is about the same as other professions sustained DPS.
I mean sure, there’s phantasms for sustain, and that builds pretty good, but our condi doesn’t have that sorta luxury.
Also, has anyone tested our condi builds damage after torment and confusion have been reworked in PvE?
At best (boss doesn’t move or use abilities), it increases our DPS by <25%. At worst (boss moves and uses abilities), it does nothing.
Actually, DPS Druids damage is not even in the same ballpark as a dps ranger if they’re maintaining grace of the land, it’s more like the reason you’d run a zerker chrono over a tank chrono, to squeeze out as much damage as physically possible while still providing the support. You would never want to bring a DPS Druid over any other DPS role, and if your team actually needs the healing you’d much rather have a full on support Druid cause the damage Druids not gonna cut it.
In order for a druid to maintain grace of the lands he needs to be building astral force quick enough (IE healing) to be able to go into it off alacrity CD while also activating glyphs with the trait while you’re in the base Druid form so the buff gets refreshed, if you’re doing this as a DPS build you don’t run staff, and you probably only have one or two glyphs which drastically hinders your ability to maintain the buff and will result in you being unable to do it and thus is why 2 Druids are brought instead of just one.
DPS Druid is for Fractals where you’d rather have damage than heals unless you don’t trust your group. I wouldn’t bring a DPS Druid into a raid, because you have so many people with thumbs up their…
Also, the damage difference between Minstrel and Zerk Chrono vs Magi and Viper Druid is a huge difference. Obviously, the DPS Druid is going to have less damage than a Viper Ranger, but that difference is also a lot smaller than the difference between a Zerk Chrono (Boonbot) and a Zerk Mesmer/Chrono (DPS).
You can riposte without spawning the clone, by the way. You can’t, however, use Lingering Thoughts without reliably not spawning the clone.
Why do you continue to insist that other classes are hampered to anywhere near the level mesmer is by their class mechanics? They aren’t. Plain and simple.
I never said that.
Warriors actually used to be punished for using Adrenaline, until ANet decided it was silly that you got more damage sitting at full Adrenaline than using Burst skills, so Burst skills got buffed slightly and the trait that buffed holding Adrenaline got nerfed.
Guardians arguably are punished for using their virtues as it’s the equivalent of using a Signet. There is a trait that allow the use of spamming F1 (Virtue of Justice) but it involves killing an enemy, so it’s only really spammable in PvE. Technically, it’s better to not use most of your Virtues and just hold them, with the exception of F3 as a panic button. This is further incentivized with Virtue traits, as many traits buff the passive effects without equally buffing the actives.
Rangers are punished for using their pet. They have significantly lower damage than most other classes and have been low on the damage scale for a very long time. Condition Ranger became a thing due to stat availability and old trait revamps that finally managed to synergize. It has actually been nerfed in terms of damage output and is now a not-so-great choice. And they also have to deal with a pet mechanic like Illusions. Sure, they can’t shatter it, but if it dies, they have to weapon swap it (and if it’s on cd, sucks to be them).
Necros are punished for entering shroud. It depends on the game mode, but in PvE you usually double tap shroud and maybe use one or two fast abilities. As a Reaper, there’s more incentive to stay in shroud, but that’s not sustainable because you don’t generate enough Life Force to maintain high shroud uptimes.
Most classes have reasons to and not to use their mechanics. Not all builds need to use every tool available to them.
Disagreeing with an opinion and point of view is not trolling. If you want to have a discussion, discuss.
They work because Shatters are your damage, not your illusions.
I think that you misunderstand what I’m proposing more so than anything else. First, I have to say that I want shatters and the illusion mechanic fundamentally changed. Yet I am also realistic about what we have a chance at getting. Changing the class mechanics at a core level would basically mean redoing the entire class from the ground up. Almost all of our skills and traits would have to be redone, and this only gets more and more complicated and time consuming the more elite specs we get (more skills and more traitlines, on top of new mechanics). At this point I doubt we will ever get the fundamental change that our mechanic needs.
Sure, let’s go with this. A realistic approach at a change, but what change do you want?
This proposal came about as a way to just lessen the downsides to using a shatter in a phantasm build. Its not supposed to increase our DPS. Its not supposed to make shatters good. Its not adding more mechanics, just changing how the current mechanics of the trait work. Its definitely not changing the fact that shatters are counterproductive.
Holy mother of contradictions. You want to use shatters in a phantasm build without increasing dps and also not make shatters good. Um… ok.
The only point of this suggestion is to lessen the harm that shattering does to mesmers. The benefits of shattering will never replace the DPS/utility/open world PvE aggro tanking that our illusions provide, ever. The least we can get is for shatters to be less harmful to our sustained DPS then.
Uhhhh… what is going on here. If you’re running a Phantasm build, you shouldn’t be using Shatters. Ever. If you do, for whatever reason, use a Shatter, you know the cost of it and do so willingly. So I don’t see what you’re aiming at.
Plus, think about open world PvE for a second. Having PF be on the mesmer himself allows you to kill a group of mobs, then summon a new phantasm on a new mob that already has the full 25% damage modification from PF. BOOM! It instantly improves our ability to change targets, since we can change targets with full powered phantasms. This suggestion is not meant to do anything except lessen the negative aspects of shattering for mesmers in a variety of situations. It is NOT intended to fix the self defeating mechanic that we have. And I think that a few people are caught up about that, and aren’t understand what this proposal is for.
Having a Phant build on a Mesmer in open world is useless unless you’re killing World Bosses, Legendaries, Champions, and a few niche other fights. That’s due to ramp times and it will be the same regardless of what you do with Shatters.
Your points are contradictory. You’re too caught up in the idea of what you want the class to be.
Modifying a Phantasm oriented trait to accommodate Shattering is a silly notion in and of itself especially when we have weak Shatter-based traits (including GM’s).
If you play Mesmer in PvE, you should be constantly changing your build, not just between Raids and Dungeons, but also between each encounter. When I run Arah, I swap my build ~5 times a path, not counting minor changes like swapping Majors. This includes utilities.
Mesmer is a reactive class, meaning you should be watching mechanics and paying attention to attacks to appropriately counter them. Sometimes that involves using Shatters, sometimes it doesn’t. But if you are going to use a Shatter to counter a mechanic, you know the risk when doing so (which is typically where Chrono boonbot shines because they can shatter without worrying about losing DPS, since they have none).
In PvE, Shatters are not used for damage. They are used to finish off enemies for that final “burst” (which against sponges is pretty wimpy). They are used to finish breakbars if you’re lacking CC (which shouldn’t, but does, happen). They are used as a panic button (and panic buttons should be punishing).
If you want to Shatter, that’s great, focus on a Shatter trait. If you want to play a Phant build, that’s great, use Phant traits. If you want to merge them, then you’re both contradicting core Mesmer functions and being unrealistic.
@Esplen – That’s the heart of the problem though…… To get even a semi decent DPS build we have to ignore our F skills. Why are so many people ok with that?
Your idea of changing PF to make Shatters worthwhile avoids the core issue and slaps a bandaid on. I get it, you want a trait to fix the Shatters instead of the Shatters getting fixed themselves. But you don’t stack more mechanics onto an already powerful trait. That’s how you get nerfed, and Anet doesn’t ever really nerf us in small portions. If you want Shatters to get fixed through a trait, there are Shatter Grandmasters that don’t do a lot.
However, that still avoids the issue of Shatters being counterproductive. And, you know, maybe we’ll have to wait for an Elite spec to do that for us, but until then, you shouldn’t tack utility and damage onto an already powerful trait.
Just because I disagree with your proposal does not mean I think that Shatters are in a good place.
Have you tested condi mirage dps doe??
In what way?
In an actual isntanced pve way where you have set buffs and a set rotation.
I think you know the answer to that, but numerically it’s very similar to a Scepter Condi Mes. The DPS is almost the exact same because the third auto gives does more damage than the third Scepter auto, but the first and second Scepter auto do more than the Axes. Additionally, you spam Confusing Images on Scepter for bonus Confusion, but spamming both Axes of Symmetry and Lingering Thoughts don’t increase your damage by nearly as much. Axes of Symmetry adds a good amount of Confusion, but it takes longer than the 0.75s to get out because you still have to leap afterwards. Lingering Thoughts is the huge hitter of the Axe set, but it will spawn a clone in PvE scenarios making is less desirable for sustained damage output (although the whirl makes it great for dungeons since things die fast if you play properly).
As for everything else about the spec, you’re adding a few utilities that are going to make negligible differences (notably Sand Shards for bonus dps), and Ambushes are not worthwhile to focus on, even on Scepter. You do get more stats than a typical Chaos setup, but that’s the only redeeming factor. You get slightly more stats (~85). Wowie. Of course, if you don’t have Vigor, you have slightly less stats (~65).
DPS Chrono is viable. The numbers I can hit with Power Mesmer can be achieved with a Power Chrono. The difference is you have more strict utilities and the only shatter you use is F5 to speed up initial ramp time.
Not saying Mirage is better than chrono, but the same thing literally happens for Druid, you’re allowed to play as. DPS ranger just like you’d be allowed to play as a Mirage, because you’re not competing for the same role as a chrono, just like a dps ranger isn’t competing for the Druids role so one being better than the other is irrelevant.
Will the group likely have a chrono AND Druid? Absolutely, does that suddenly mean Mirage and condi Druid can never be played because they’re arguably worse than Druid/chrono? No, because their goal is different, it’s to kill things, where Druid and chrono are to buff.
There’s a reason DPS Druid is ran, and it’s not ran for nearly the same reasons you’d bring a Mirage…
Grace of the Land
Spotter
Frost Spirit
Sun Spirit
Glyph of Empowerment
They offer wayyy too much support and can still bring near as much damage as Condi Ranger. The heals on Condi Druid are pitiful and it’s really only a good option if you’re confident in your groups damage output (see: static Fractal groups), otherwise you’re better off going Healing Druid to maintain Scholar on your DPS’.
Mirage (and Chrono) do not offer this same “fire and forget” attitude. Mirage offers nothing new in terms of utility, and the damage output is abysmal compared to core Mesmer. Axe itself is fighting with core Mesmer issues because all of the weapon skills are damage skills, but you can’t cast Axe2 with 3 Phants out. Sure, you can still run Reflects, but you’re not any better at reflecting, so why run Mirage?
Chrono can’t maintain Quickness and Alacrity while dealing high DPS (you’re looking at a peak of 1/3 your teammates dps if you run full zerk in a realistic raid). You can run DPS Chrono, but then you aren’t outputting any Quickness and your Alacrity is pretty horrid, meaning you’re just filling a DPS slot instead of meshing two roles (this is due to how low Quickness durations we give without Concentration).
If you wanted to kill things, I would recommend not running Mirage, as the condi dps gained is minimal and still puts it behind Power Mesmer.
I just don’t think a 1 sec dodge animation really lowers your DPS that much. Therefor being able to continue attacking during that 1 sec isn’t going to make a huge difference.
Really, the best use of this ability is when channeling a long cast like Confusing Images. That way you don’t interrupt yourself. However, CI is the only channel cast mesmer has besides Blurred Frenzy, and Blurred Frenzy is already an evade… Good job.
And guess what, now you aren’t ambushing!
you know, like how this expansion gave EVERY OTHER CLASS a new mechanic………………………………………………………………….
and Mirage gets MORE shatter builds……………….
The sad thing is that Mirage doesn’t offer much in terms of shatters as of the demo weekend.
This is a pretty reasonable argument.
But the problem remains that at least half of our shatters feel bad to use.
Maybe our damage post patch is better and I may have overstated my claim earlier.
However even if we can say the output we currently do is relatively balanced in the context of the content, and we are able to achieve this with a fully supported group; given it’s very restrictive, and kind of limited(?) nature, why would reducing the unwieldy re-ramp be such a big deal? Why is that OP?
OP’s suggestion nets the same thing just less restrictive.We cannot re-summon without dropping DPS, we cannot create a clone without dropping DPS, both of which take up half our weapon slot skills (excluding auto attack), and as established we cannot shatter without losing our DPS… So all we can do is drop wells? Frankly this seems like poor design.
If our current possible supported output is OP then balance needs to be done sure, but actively removing counter intuitive design isn’t a bad thing and would just make playing it more fun.
That’s a separate issue, though, and more in line with the flaws of core mesmer design than a trait. I don’t think we should look towards a power/damage trait to compensate for a core class flaw, especially if it’s in the core class.
I’m not saying that shatters don’t feel bad (and yeah, they feel especially bad in raids when you lose 40% of your dps), but Phantasmal Force isn’t the place you should look to compensate for that. Maybe Master of Fragmentation?
This will work pretty well against trash mobs. You can easily change the weapons up, but I highly recommend Sword + Focus to clump enemies and then cleave them down (while shattering). Staff is for extra mobility, easy clone gen, and a little bit of AoE. Sometimes I like to use Greatsword instead, but that’s up to you. Most people will tell you to run another offhand so you have 2 sword sets, and that’s fine, too. This build will not work very well against enemies stronger than Elites, and will struggle slightly with Elites. It is not recommended for group play, either.
That’s a nice catch. I think it’s probably an oversight because what’s underwater combat?
I know how well power Mesmer is performing post balance update. I agree that the suggested changes to this trait are unnecessary.
You shouldn’t be out-performing the other DPS by such a large margin, though. It appears as though your DPS meter is not picking up all the data.
In most encounters, you need to ramp up (summon phants, build up adrenalin/rage, precast overloads, etc). However, there are many encounters where you can ignore this as a Mesmer and hold the same 3 Phantasms up for the entire fight (VG, Sloth, KC, Sab) which allows you to have peak DPS (assuming buffs are being spread to you) at all times.
Additionally, ~40% of your DPS is always hitting, which means if you go down, need to move, or have to focus on a mechanic, you’re still hitting for 40% of your DPS whereas other classes are sometimes doing nothing.
And on fights like Sloth where he goes to sleep, he also dispels all conditions on him, which eats pretty heavily into condition damage output, whereas the Phantasms are still out and ready to continue the punishment when he wakes up.
Hahaha, you’re funny. There’s a reason a weaker version of that was nerfed (and later removed) from Persistence of Memory and it’s because you could infinitely negate damage via Shield4 + Sword2 + F4 (and a few other trait synergies).
And? All you’re doing is causing ignorable clone shatter damage. I fail to see the problem, powerful spec choices, if you want to be a nigh-invulnerable juggernaut brought down only by CC (and the 145356375653423 unblockable attacks in the game by now), then so be it.
It trivializes PvE encounters and there may be a large pool of unblockable attacks, but most people don’t have access to a constant stream of them. Additionally, you have invuln as a panic button and BF as extra evasion.
The spec revolved around the free phantasm from Mental Defense along with having Echo of Memory’s cooldown tick after the first phantasm was summoned (regardless of the second being cast or not).
Tossing in clone shatters makes it even easier to pull off as you can use a lot more weapon skills to ensure phantasms are coming out.
Considering that the trait is already a powerful damage buff as is, I don’t think it’s necessary to rework or even buff it. I would say that it would be nice to buff Phant condition damage, but that would involve a rework as to how phant conditions are sourced (currently, only the strike itself is sourced on Phants, the conditions applied are sourced by the mesmer).
I’m not saying those numbers are wrong, but I would like to see them from someone else’s perspective just for confirmation. DPS counters have a tendency to miss damage dealt from other players.
That’s somewhat irrelevant when trying to see how much DPS a Mesmer can achieve.
However, if you want to see fight averages based on uploaded evtc’s, then:
https://www.gw2raidar.com/encounter/PreviouslyLimbsYellDreamtAsset
https://www.gw2raidar.com/encounter/SearchNominatedBowedMovedDemanded
https://www.gw2raidar.com/encounter/TrailRevelationsExaminationsInduceYeah
https://www.gw2raidar.com/encounter/SpoilsWarmsDrawsAirportUnlike
https://www.gw2raidar.com/encounter/ComplyFinancesHipSistersAutomatically
https://www.gw2raidar.com/encounter/GreetedCustomerTrickAcquisitionNearest
https://www.gw2raidar.com/encounter/SubstitutedTruthLogicalClassSlim
Blue and small numbers are averages, whereas the green/big numbers are run-stats.
I like this suggestion a lot, I don’t understand the comments on how or why this would be OP?
our DPS is still not great compared to everyone else
I would like to disagree.
https://dps.report/tnxQ-20170904-033401_vg
https://dps.report/Y1z2-20170904-040428_sab
https://dps.report/Tks7-20170904-042921_sloth
https://dps.report/982G-20170904-045637_matt
https://dps.report/jBKB-20170904-161318_mo
https://dps.report/6Pt0-20170904-181134_cairn
https://dps.report/ddED-20170904-183203_mo
https://dps.report/TNRo-20170904-203213_xera
I would go even further and do it like this:
- For each clone shattered, +1% damage for 60 seconds.
- For each phantasm shattered, +5% damage for 60 seconds.
- Affects the mesmer and phantasms.
- Shattering clones recharges phantasm CDs by 1-2 seconds.
Hahaha, you’re funny. There’s a reason a weaker version of that was nerfed (and later removed) from Persistence of Memory and it’s because you could infinitely negate damage via Shield4 + Sword2 + F4 (and a few other trait synergies).
Eh, if you were a Chrono Boonbot, your phants will never do more than your teammates.
As a Power Mesmer, on the other hand… you’ll see your Swordsman reaching ~10k dps (9563 in that fight).
Don’t we basically have that in Illusions line with “Phantasms attack more often”?
But that stacks with Alacrity, so you can make them have even shorter attack animations. All you have to do is not give Alacrity to your teammates.
Phantasms are affected by most non-stat affecting boon/buffs. This includes, but is not limited to:
Protection, Quickness, Alacrity, Retaliation, Resistance, Regeneration, Swiftness, Fury, Stability, and Aegis.
e-specs were SUPPOSED to add something new, mesmer being bound to a target is so obnoxious to deal with
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Axes_of_Symmetry
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Illusionary_Ambush
I mean, yeah, the only good thing to come out of the elite spec are 2 abilities.
This has to be the most toxic post on the forums right now..
It started as a whine topic and it basically turned into a bash topic.Put your feedback down if you like, reply to that person’s feedback if you like, but there really is no need in keeping on calling people out for their opinions or how they ‘think’ things were intended by the devs or how not, we simply can’t know this unless someone has a video clip or post from them saying how Elite specs were really meant to be implemented.
This goes both ways, though. One person said that especs weren’t meant to be upgrades, but sidegrades. Another person said that they’re meant to be upgrades. They’re both (arguably) opinions, although they may have some reasoning behind why they think that.
Tempest was supposed to be a support spec but it failed pretty horribly, so they upped the damage and it became a straight upgrade to damage while also giving more supportive options. :/