Guild Wars 2

- Gyros still can’t keep up
- the AI doesn’t like the jungle terrain (traveling around the whole map if you jump down a rock)

Signets would have been soooo much better. -.-

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQFAUlUUhSuYJWwdLQ7FL5FFYCGAV13L1fB44VkEFBA-TxBFABCcBAQS5Xa6IqZ/BAeAAFq+zVKBBA-e

My old solo PvE build, it works pretty well. I tried Scrapper, but I miss the Rifle. When wielding the Hammer I don’t have a fast traveling ranged weapon for tagging. Nades kit range is too short, Mortar too slow.

The little Gyro is nice but hard to see, the buff icon should be there as well.

Until now I’ve only tried the Healing Gyro, but as you said, if I move I’m always out of the circle and mostly don’t get the pulsing heals.
And on top of this the AI has serious issues with the terrain. Jump down a little rock and the Gyro goes on an endless journey.

As many before have mentioned, the other healing skills need serious buffs, maybe even complete overhauls – and not this kind of overhaul the Medkit has recieved which broke it even more.

Right now we only have HT and Elixir H for Elixir builds as viable heals. That’s it, the other healing skills (including current Gyro) are useless in their current state.

Hammer
The yellow lightnings on #2, 3 and 5 look great. Would like to see some on #1 as well.

• 1 AA: dmg seems still low and it’s too slow. We need to go in melee range and keep the enemy close. That’s much more work than just sitting with rifle and camping on the AA. Therefore higher risk should equal higher reward. Maybe even opening the possibility to run hammer without kits.
  Suggestions:
  - Add a lightning pulse to the third attack on top for extra dmg, like Guardians Hammer #1 symbol
  - Positive Bash puts a positive and Negative Bash a negative charge on the struck enemies. Equalizing Blow consumes both and causes an electric explosion (with nice lightnings as eye candy).
  - perma cripple or chill would be nice to keep enemies near the Scrapper, since we loose rifle/pistol as auto targeting weapons and nades/mortar only hit randomly on kiting/evading targets.

• 2 Electro-Whirl: Seems ok, dmg could be higher.
• 3 Rocket Jump: Feels weird, clunky and slow. Increase speed to make it a reliable gap closer, since it’s the only one we have. No Bull’s Charge, Steal, Judge’s Intervention or something, so Rocket Jump has to work.
• 4 Shock Shield: The blocking radius seems weird, maybe spread it up a little.
  Additional suggestion: If you don’t move it should block from every direction, if you move it would block only in front of you.
• 5 Thunderclap: Good, cd could be shorter.

What I am missing, when I take the Hammer is the possibility to camp on a ranged AA during big events or as filler in PvP when kited. Rifle/Pistol had this, but with Hammer I can only spam nades/mortar – tenosynovitis incoming yay!!! Need toggleable AA and autotarget on nades/mortar for slow moving/stationary bosses.

Traits

Minor

• Function Gyro
  Compared to other specialization mechanics this is by far the worst imo. While other classes can use their mechanic frequently and actually achieve something, the F-Gyro is only useable in a specific scenario and can’t even do its job in 90% of the cases because it gets destroyed nearly instant or the AI kitten it up or simply doing it by yourself is easier. Imagine Reaper Shroud could be destroyed by few AA hits and set on a 30s cd. Wouldn’t this be awesome?
  All in all I don’t see how this can be considered a specialization mechanic, it’s far from being comparable to other specializations.
  Besides: Releasing such a potentially problematic mechanic as one of the last revealed, a few weeks before HoT release, with only one BWE to fix it, is really bad project management.
  Problems with F-Gyro:
  - dies far too quickly: HP need to be increased significantly or made invulnerable
  - cd way too high: remove cd (one Gyro per time active)
  - stomp speed very slow: increase speed
  - targeting downed allies is troublesome. I tried to use every possibility, but just running to them while keep attacking was mostly the better, faster and more reliable solution.
  - can’t rez dead player (dead, not downed)
  - if cced while attempting to rez it often just runs to another downed ally, right into the AoE and dies
  - F-Gyro doesn’t even have its own skin. Reaper Shroud, Celestial Avatar + new pets, Daredevil dodges, Virtues and we get a lazy copy & paste Bulwark for our mechanic?
  Further improvements:
  - Make F-Gyro able to rez yourself in downstate (at least some kind of use in PvE) or finish other players while both of you are in downstate.
  - Introduce F-Gyro-stacks (already been mentioned several times): Every x seconds a new F-Gyro is created. They stack up to 5 times and can be used without cd (one active). Combined with the following overhauled minor traits:

• Decisive Renowned: Bad trait, merge it with the adept trait (Function Gyro) or delete it and create a new one, e.g. -5% dmg if F-Gyro is ready.

• Impact Savant: Needs a complete overhaul to something actually useful, e.g. +10% dmg if F-Gyro is ready. It’s the worst minor GM-Trait of all specializations by far. It’s even worse than most minor master traits from the other specializations.

Adept

• Shocking Speed: Should be a minor rather than an adept trait.
• Stabilization Core: Main problem is the fragile F-Gyro.
• Recovery Matrix: great trait

Master

• Rapid Regeneration: ok
• Expert Examination: ok
• Mass Momentum: ok

Grandmaster

• Adaptive Armor: good trait, no complaints
• Final Salvo: I’m really not impressed by this trait, imo it’s the worst of these three GM. Should be moved to adept lvl or made baseline/minor.
• Perfectly Weighted: isn’t on pair with other GM traits (not only Scrapper ones).
  Perfectly Weighted: 2 stacks stability for 3s on successful evade on 5s ICD.
  Revenant gets 1 stack stability for 2,5s on dodge (already superior to PW) with Unwavering Avoidance as a minor (superior²) master trait without ICD (superior³).
  Perfectly Weighted should be changed to stability being activated on dodge without ICD. Endurance regeneration works as natural ICD.
  Additionaly:
  - more dmg or
  - 20 cd on Hammer skills or
  - shifted to master level.

But what Scrapper really misses (in WvW zerging) is something like Balanced Stance, Dolyak Signet or Armor of Earth. A Stunbreak with a bunch of stability stacks, not only 1 or 2. That’s what a frontliner needs.

Gyros
In short: Some tool belt skills are great (Defense Field, Reconstruction Field, Spare Capacitor and Detection Pulse), Gyros are meh.

Merge these four tool belt skills in two utilities and delete Gyros – problems solved.

What Scrapper misses is reliable stability. Stabilization Core isn’t reliable.

Also Perfectly Weighted isn’t on pair with other GM traits.
Perfectly Weighted: 2 stacks stability for 3s on successful evade on 5s ICD.
Revenant gets 1 stack stability for 2,5s on dodge (already superior to PW) with Unwavering Avoidance as a minor (superior²) master trait without ICD (superior³).
Perfectly Weighted should be changed to stability being activated on dodge without ICD. Endurance regeneration functions as natural ICD.

But what really misses is something like Balanced Stance, Dolyak Signet or Armor of Earth. A Stunbreak with a bunch of stability stacks, not only 1 or 2. Sadly Gyros deliver none of these.

MrTJpwnz.4710:

What if using a toolbelt skill will drop a random improvised weapon in the area? just like the rangers Porcine pet’s (the pig, warthog etc.) have. It would totally fit the theme of the scrapper which are the masters of improvising.

This would be fun to fool around with a while, but Engineer dosen’t need more RNG.

Ardid.7203:

Chaith proposed this idea on the red thread, I think it could be gold.

Function Gyro needs to be pillar for the identity of the Scrapper, what really sets apart a Scrapper from an Engineer. This is the class mechanic we get from the first minor trait, a parallel to Reaper’s Shroud, Celestial Avatar, Overload Attunement, Continuum Split, Dragonhunter Virtues, Legendary Dragon Stance, Primal Bursts.

Other than the Engineer, only the Thief’s third dodge bar doesn’t really alter the playstyle significantly.

Currently, the Scrapper defining minor trait reads this: “You gain access to the Function Gyro, which can finish a foe or revive an ally at range.”

What I would suggest is:

Function Gyro: Gain access to up to 3 non-combative Function Gyros which encircle you. Periodically construct a function Gyro every 60 seconds. Command a Function Gyro to join the fray to finish foes or revive allies. (20s CD).

Reworking Impact Savant, the last Minor, as well:

Impact Savant: Deal 4% more damage, and reduce the duration of incoming stuns by 10% for each encircling Function Gyro.

What this accomplishes is creates a system of Gyro management that Scrappers in all game modes would be able to manipulate to their benefit. PvE Scrappers would enjoy great uptime of a 4-12% damage modifier. Non PvE Scrappers would get help from a Function Gyro every 20 seconds if they managed production well, and didn’t deplete resources.

Best of all, it’d be a constantly present theme that adds a bit more substance to the Scrapper’s core class mechanic, keeping it closer to the same feel players had when watching the Scrapper in the HoT trailer.

I think this is the good one.

It makes the F-Gyros useful in all the game modes, adds a real new mechanic to play with, gives the Scrapper a truly distinctive aesthetic component, and can be implemented without Irenio’s team having to start from scratch.

Of course it should be tweaked and adjusted, but I think the core idea nails it: to accumulate automatically created, not-AI gyros, that the Scrapper needs to administrate correctly to gain passive bonus or to execute remote functions.

Now this is one of the best suggestions I’ve read the last week and seems not like a huge overhaul to the current mechanic. C’mon ANet/Irenio make this happen.

Basaltface.2786:

druid can remove ALL his darn conditions just by going into his celestial form…

And this on an adept trait!

Primal Echoes – Reduces recharge staff skills by 20% and daze enemies around you when you swap to staff.
AoE-Daze + -20% cd an adept trait. Scrapper doesn’t even has a cd reduction and the hammer trait is a GM!

Druid’s trait line looks like it’s overflowing with great traits, the two mentioned adept traits look better than some other professions GM traits…

Ranger deserves an awesome specialization after 3 years of suffering, but as Scrapper I’m feeling left behind with our useless spirit weapons aka Gyros and 30s one trick mechanic.

I really hope the deves will focus on us and our lackluster Gyros, since Druid is revealed now and seems pretty finished.

1. Reaper
2. Druid
3. Daredevil
4. Herald
5. Chronomancer
6. Berserker
- big gap -
7. Scrapper
- medium gap -
8. Dragonhunter
9. Tempest

Ricky Rouse.1583:

Thief only got a third dodge to be fair. Granted, a third dodge is universally good, but it isn’t very exciting.

Would trade the F-Gyro for a third dogde instantly.

As an Engineer I’m feeling like a second-class class right now. Copy and paste spirit weapons and a 30s mechanic on our side and really new and shiny stuff on the Druid’s side.

Rage Cube.4573:

It literally just got a skill re-haul.

There is an upcoming trait from Scrapper that will make it Interesting.

Recovery Matrix: Using your heal skill will temporarily reduce damage you receive. (This grants protection for 5s).

IT HAS NO LISTED INTERNAL CD.

Med-Kit + Recovery Matrix = 100% Protection up-time.

May it be noted that you miss out on the other traits in this tier: Stability for your function Gyro and Super-speed on Blast/Leap on Lightning Fields.

Recovery Matrix is superior to the other two traits imo. It will be balanced with the sledgehammer pretty soon. ICD + highly reduced duration I assume. Cause that’s what happens to Engineer’s shinies.

wolfyrik.2017:

Morfedel.4165:

Oh don’t get me wrong. I’m not saying there’s no room for improvement. I’m arguing against those who are saying it’s worthless.

So how would you improve it for pve without making it too powerful in pvp and wvw and without changing it’s core concept?

Isn’t this exactly the problem though? Engineer’s have already seen precisely this problem played out for three years with turrets. They’re either pitifully weak in all game modes or they’re too powerful for PvP. Exactly how would you make yet another Ai utility useful across all game modes, when Anet has already proven that they cannot do it? Not only with Engi, in fact, but every single Ai using class.

Could it be that the core conecpt is fatally flawed?

One of the many reasons people recognise gyros as a bad idea or feel that they are worthless, is because we’ve read this metaphorical book before. We know how it ends.

Frankly the only sensible thing I can see to do with gyros, (outside of scrapping them as the terrible idea that they are) is to make Decisive renown baseline or add PvE functionality ontop of it, seriously reduce the cooldown to around 15-20 seconds and add in other f Key activations by default. Then they need to remove one of the gates. I don’t care which one but triple-gated short duration utilities is an absurd idea, from the genius that brought us ICD on dodge traits I suspect. kitten . Then they need to double the HP OF the gyros, at the very least and potentially triple the HP of the Bulwark or remove it’s HP completely and reduce it’s duration to only a few seconds. That’s just to start with.

Of course what really upsets me is that we have to do any of this in the first place. Why Anet would so utterly and completely fail to learn from their previous mistakes, mistakes which have been proven thoroughly, consistantly over the last three years, always ending in complete failure, is just beyond my ability to understand. You’d think that after they balanced ranger pets, turrets and spirit weapons for the third or fourth time, they’d have worked it out.

I just can’t even

Exactly my thoughts.. I would really like to know what they where thinking, while doing it.

a: We have still no idea for Engineer’s specialisation.
b: Don’t we have a concept with mobile turrets back from release?
a: Yeah, but they were similar to spirit weapons, which no one uses currently.
b: Naa, kitten it! We take it anyway and just pretend they are not like spirit weapons. Then we fake something about a fuel system for marketing and that’s it. No one will notice for sure.

Prepare to get disappointed, Engineers also thought they would get “not spirit weapons” and something with “fuel” – basically a new interesting mechanic and utilities.
They got spirit weapons with all of its well-known problems and a niche-niche-mechanic.

An actual fuel-system, as it has already be mentioned several times.

Like here:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/Suggestion-Fuel-Redesigning-the-Gyros
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/Fuel-system-what-it-should-have-been
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/Scrapper-overhaul-suggestion-to-fuel-mechanic

The Function Gyro should do more, than just one most likely unsuccessful stomp/res every 30s.
It’s advertised as our new mechanic, so it should take a noticeable effect on our gameplay not only every 30s and also be viable in PvE.
Let it mine, collect loot, hell even go to the TP and collect gold or something like that.

The F-Gyro should:

• float permanently around the Engineer (visual all time, basically a mini)
• while inactive/in standby it should be unselectable and invulnerable
• get some kind of “action-stacks” for the performed task, e.g. stomp = 2 stomp-stacks, res = 2 res-stacks, etc.
  - If a task is started it floats to its destination, e.g. attempting to stomp.
  - If interrupted the stacks decrease and it starts a new attempt.
  - If 0 stacks are reached it aborts and floats back to the Engineer.
  The failed task goes on 5s or 10s cd. It is invulnerable while executing tasks, so it has to be cced to be interrupted.
• successful tasks also put this action e.g. stomp on cd for 5s-10s
• tasks are handled separately, while stomp is on cd, it can still res
• traits that activate for spawning the F-Gyro are activated if a task e.g. stomp-attempt is started.

I would rather suggest to make the other heals actually viable instead of trying to destroy the only useful healing skill Engineers currently have.

Elixir H is only used in Elixir-builds. Maybe a reduced cd (20s baseline, maybe even 15s and no cd reduction from Alchemy anymore for it) could make it a more considerable heal outside of Elixir-builds.

AED had its short time to shine when AMR could be abused. I don’t see how it could be made useful in anyway, the concept of it is already bad and to niche.

Medkit.. well, it’s even worse than it was before the “overhaul”. Absolutely unuseable in its current state. Without the groundtarget on #2-5 it would already be better and less clunky. Then make #1 also heal yourself and it could be viable.

Heal Gyro from what I’ve seen in the PoI:
- cd way too long
- the radius too small (easy to step out in the battle, since Gyro doesn’t stay on the Engineer)
- overall heal too weak for it’s downtime
- destroyable: high risk and way too low reward for using it

Engineers need more healing skill options, not less. We already are the class with the least number of viable healing skills.

Do leap finisher actually occur if you jump around in the field, never crossing the borders or only if you jump in and out of a field?

Nike.2631:

Oh goodness. please don’t misunderstand. In my role as Guardian/Dragonhunter enthusiast, I want gyros to be better. I want the to be friken AWESOME. So that when the discussion comes around again on the G side of the house we can point to gyros and say “Look at that? See those gyros over there? That’s on a level people use. That’s on a level competitive builds get wrapped around. That’s the kind of impact Spirit Weapons should be bringing to the table.”

Take a look at the medkit and what happened to it during the overhaul. Be careful with your wishes, the risk that your situation will be even worse after it, is incredibly high.
Also see the mortar, 2 days after the release its AA got nerfed by -28% without a good reason.

fluidmonolith.3584:

Inexor.7804:

Are.1326:

So… if you ran no gyros the fuel bar would do what?

Few things which just came to my mind:
- Use it as additional fuel for the FT/fire bomb for some extra dmg/burn
- Give your AA a burn, if fuel is at 100%
- +x% dmg while fuel is at 100%
- Release it as a fire field under your feets if ccd, with x sec duration depending on fuel level

But how would a build without Gyros spend fuel? Or do you just build up your fuel bar with AA’s and then have a perma burn on AA’s, or +X% damage or whatnot? Other utilities would have to spend fuel just as Gryos do, in order for it to be a fun or meaningful mechanic. I’m not sure this would be so simple to implement.

Wouldn’t have to such an high effort solution with adding fuel costs to every utility. Just something like:
With Gyros slotted: Fuel only used for Gyros
No Gyros slotted: If e.g. 20% fuel have been built up your AA releases a flame burst or does x% dmg extra.
So you have to make a choice: Gyros or some extra dmg every few hits.

Its not impossible to find usefull solutions, I mean when did we see the first HoT trailer with the Engineer executing an possible early version of the rocket jump and some Gyros around him? January? That are 8 months and all we got are copy and paste spirit weapons, which have the same minion-problems the community complained about in the past 3 years and a niche-niche F-Key-mechanic with a huge cd, which wasn’t even shown in the PoI.

I really expected a more thought-out result. There was enough time to create a good concept without mindless copy and paste.
All ANet had to do was asking: “Hey folks, for Engineer we think about something with a Hammer and flying drones/minions. Any suggestions for a funny mechanic and potential problems?”
They still could have come up with the F-Key-Gyro as an additional goody, but then there would have been a solid and promising concept, no uninspired, reskinned spirit weapons with all their well-known problems in WvW/big Events.

Now we only can do minor adjustments to make Gyros halfway useful, it’s too late for big changes.. sadly.

I’m pretty dissapointed from the shown stuff for the scrapper.

Hammer
Looked good, even if the dmg seems to need similar threatment like Reaper’s GS imo.

Super speed is nothing special, imo the “Scrapper-Super-Speed” should get something on top, like purge/decrease duration from cripple/chill while active.

Traits
Some traits like Adaptive Armor, Perfectly Weighted, Mass Momentum or Rapid Regeneration sound amazing.
But e.g. Final Salvo seems not that good for a GM.
Minor Traits are completely underwhelming and boring.

Gyros
The Gyros are the biggest dissapointment for me.
When I read about “fuel” in the blogpost I thought ANet has finally learned from the complainments about minions over the last three years.
I imagined they invented a way to make minions viable in WvW, bigger Events, but obviously they didn’t. They are just spirit weapons.
- vulnerable -> useless in WvW, PvE-Events and for bigger PvP-fights
- huge cds
- slow

The only useful parts of the Gyros seem to be some of the toolbelt-skills.

Function Gyro
Thought it should replace our F-Button, but with a ridiculous high cd of 30s the already tiny niche will be even smaller. Can’t even see the new mechanic anymore. irony
Deploying it in front of you, charging to it’s destination, trying to do his job and then disappearing/being destroyed, making place for the next F-Gyro.
That’s how it should be – one active at the same time, no cd.

Lets transfer this to other Specialisations:
- Reaper: Use one skill and Reapershroud goes on 30s cd.
- Warrior: Use one primal burst and Berserk goes on 30s cd.
- Thief: Dodge one time and the third dodge is unavailable for 30s.

Heal Gyro
- weak heal
- way too small radius
- slow gyro -> easy to step out of the tiny radius
- huge cd
-> Healing Turret remains superior

Bulwark Gyro:
- few hits and it’s dead
Phantasmal Defender from Mesmer does dmg, has lower cd and can be improved with various traits like less cd, AoE-Regeneration…

Purge Gyro
- may be good, but I think I would still use HT and EG
- cd too long

Shredder Gyro
- could be good
- cd way too long

Blast Gyro
Big red orb charges you, please stand still and dont dodge.. nothing more than a gimmick.

Stealth Gyro
The current Stealth-Gyro is worse than Shadow Refuge imo:
Make 3 steps, wait for the Gyro, make 3 steps..
- it doesn’t keep up with the Engineer, like seen in the PoI. There wasn’t even swiftness on the character, so “selfish” swiftness like from Streamlined Kits renders this Gyro even worse
- it doesn’t stack stealth like Shadow Refuge, you have to stay in it. Would be ok, if the Gyro stays on your position.
- it pulls aggro -> useless for PvE
- it’s cc-able and can’t dodge -> knockback, pull, fear etc and stealth is gone for sure, while the thief can try to dodge in his SR to avoid beeing kicked out
- it’s killable, SR isn’t

As a regulary Utility it would be ok I guess, but not as Elite.

Overall I don’t see why they took that long, to reveal the Scrapper. The new, super exiting, imba mechanic of the Function Gyro wasn’t even showed.
Theres basically nothing new, but they still rather did PoIs about Mordrem Guard or Guild Objectives in WvW rather then pushing the Specialisations out earlier, maybe unpolished, but to give them more BWEs. Scrapper really needs them, as far as I saw its current state.
The other non-specialisations-PoI could have easily been shown later, since they affect all players and therefore I suppose they will get more attention after HoT release than the underwhelming Scrapper and maybe Druid.

I fear we got the short end of the stick again, if I see what fixes the Reaper still gets after 2 BWEs..

miriforst.1290:

Ye, it feels like there wasn’t enough time for them to design a fuel system without making it only useable with the scrappers bots so they slapped on a finisher/rezbot which they still have not demonstrated in action. “TBD”.

A resource management game for the engineer instead of a short limited duration would have been interesting indeed.

I would still allow them to be damaged though, just as long as toolkit heals them and they get a major stat boost.

Yeah, this just came to my mind too. Maybe the AA of the Hammer could heal them too, if they are near the Scrapper. This should be possible, if we suggest in for BWE3. Ofc it would still not make them viable for Zerging, just for small PvP-battles.

Are.1326:

So… if you ran no gyros the fuel bar would do what?

Few things which just came to my mind:
- Use it as additional fuel for the FT/fire bomb for some extra dmg/burn
- Give your AA a burn, if fuel is at 100%
- +x% dmg while fuel is at 100%
- Release it as a fire field under your feets if ccd, with x sec duration depending on fuel level

Maybe 5s cd and a limitation of one F-Gyro out at once, but surely not 30s!

Lets transfer this to other Specialisations (beware of irony):
- Reaper: Use one skill in Reaper’s Shroud and it goes on 30s cd.
- Warrior: Use one primal burst and Berserk goes on 30s cd.
- Thief: Dodge one time and the third dodge is unavailable for 30s.

Releasing a niche mechanic, putting a ridiculous long cd on it and making it killable to make it even more of a niche mechanic is pathetic.

So Fuel was acutally just marketing-blabla for the active time span, which is pretty dissapointing.
Basically Gyros are spirit weapons, neither special nor new nor amazing.

This is what I imagined, when I heared of “Fuel” and Gyros the first time:

Somethin like a tweaked life-force-system from the Necromancer or the energy-system from the Revenant.

Scrapper would have a fuel-bar and AA or attacks in genereal as Scrapper generate Fuel, filling up your fuel-bar.
Gyros would consume this fuel steadily over time while active – like the Revenant’s facets drain energy.

Gyros function similar like kits:
You deploy them, they start doing their job (cleansing, spinning, etc) and consume fuel.
If wanted you just stow/deactivate them like kits.
They could even get some kind if control panel for its behaviour, which opens up like kits: Attack my targets, stay near me, support teammates, self destruct.
While fighting and therefore generating fuel, it should be possible to maintain the upkeep of one or two Gyros – depending on how powerful they are.

They would be invulnerable and limited due to fuel.
They remain cc-able, maybe some effects would have to be tweaked – like only 1 condition every three seconds, and for the Bulwark onyl ~20% dmg-reduction.
If they run out of fuel they explode and go on cd.

The Stealth-Gyro itself obviously can’t be maintained, so there would be a maximum time window for stealth.
It could still be countered by fearing, pulling, slowing or knocking it back.

After a long development phase like the Scrapper had, I expected a smart new class mechanic with heaps of synergies to the existing trait lines, cool utilities and stuff.
Something like the above mentioned, not just copy and paste spirit weapons and a F-Gyro which attempts to finish someone, dies in 2s and goes on 30s!!! cd.
But since the HoT release is in a month, there will be no major overhaul, even if ANet would be willing.

They should had revealed all Specialisations earlier or at least the idea for it, even if they where unfinished. In this way the community would have been able to make suggestions or ideas how to improve the choosen mechanic.

Now we have just another underwhelming set of utilities and no possibility to make major adjustments anymore.

Hail to the kits!

jheryn.8390:

No you don’t for the “possible consequences” but you make statements concerning these things as if they are either easy or already implemented.

Yeah, cause the are already in the game.

jheryn.8390:

LOL. So instead of seeing mounts we see a lot of people floating around in the air? Oh, that doesn’t break immersion… (insert sarcasm). Hiding minis does not affect the movement and model of the player character. Mounts would. Hiding a mounted creature would be a very different prospect than hiding a mini.

Did you ever see the Aviator’s Memory Box? Your character goes into an airplane-like position with his arms, wears an Aviator Cap and makes brooom-sounds. You can even fight while this transformation is on you.
BUT you’re the only one actually seeing it, to other player you look normal, with all the regular animations.

So replacing animations, like Aviator’s Memory Box, with the regular walking animations is already in the game. Hiding the e.g. “standing on a Hoverboard”-animation would just be the same.

jheryn.8390:

How do you know if it exists? If you are talking about being able to hide minis, then it doesn’t equate to the same thing. Mini’s have no impact on combat and have no skill sets and have no bearing on movement. They are cosmetic only. Other than the mini’s example, you don’t know if the ability to lower the impact for mounts exists or not.

We were talking about PvE-Mounts with perma swiftness, not usable in combat (means dismounted if put in combat). And with the Aviator’s Memory Box-hiding-option it would just be like the mini-hiding. Too much going on on the screen? Hide the mounts, replace animations with regular walking/running.

jheryn.8390:

Exactly how would you be more “comfortable” traveling from A to B? And other than cosmetic reasons, why do you need mounts if they don’t offer speed, boons or skills?

I spoke about perma swiftness on mounts, basically saving you time needed to change from a “no perma swiftness”-build to a perma swiftness-build – even if this only means to take a warhorn out of your inventory.
With a mount as easy perma swiftness-source there would be no need to click all your swiftness-skills to maintain perma swiftness on your own. Its just saving time and clicking-effort, thats it.
Of course e.g. warriors with a mobility-build aka sword/warhorn + GS would still be faster than mounts, due to their leap skills on top of perma swiftness.

Convenience item for comfortable PvE-traveling, nothing more.

jheryn.8390:

They are not mounts. They are speed boosts, that are not as good as a speed booster from the gem shop or any of the skills/traits that boost speed. Toons also do not ride these things and therefore the model is still in running mode. The kites are basically toys that provide a terrible speed boost and eliminate your skills until dropped.

I only wanted to point out that there already is a frame/code-chunk for the basic function of mounts. Deactivating your skills, putting you into a specific position/animation set (holding kite) and providing a speed boost.

Thats what a mount does, admittedly the kite is a bad one with only 5%.

jheryn.8390:

- Frames exist, but the speed boost is the unnecessary and unfair advantage so many are disagreeing with throughout the thread.
- Since these affect the actual player toon model, you cannot claim that the ability to hide it exists. You cannot know that.
- The option to improve performance impacts on toons have existed since day one, but doesn’t give unfair advantage as mounts would. If I am forced to ride a mount in order to keep up, it is not fair.

The boost (perma swiftness) is not unfair, since every class can get perma swiftness on its own. Mesmer (for worst case example) would have to use Runes and the healing mantra – basically gold for a second armor/runes and bag slots for the armor, as well as time to change the armor/utility. And you would still be able to blink around, speeding up the traveling even more.

With a mount you spent a much bigger amount of gold or real money to save some armor/weapon-changing-time, some space in your bag if second armor is needed and the repetitive spamming of your skills.

jheryn.8390:

I admire your enthusiasm and tenacity, but Anet did address why there were no mounts (waypoints). So I wouldn’t hold my breath waiting if I were you.

There seem to be as many if not more who do not want mounts, so at least right now, it doesn’t look promising for you. And I will admit I am glad for that.

I highly doubt that the average casual player, who is willing to spend some money on the gem shop, is wasting his time in the forums, if the game is running.
And the few with enough bravery to open a mount thread get immediately jumped and flamed by the same slavering mob of ppl. I guess they visit the forum never again.

I still have the impression most of the mount hater don’t even know what we are talking about. They just read mounts and go into ragemode like fanatics coming up with the same arguments over and over again, while the solution for this issue was posted few posts before.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Energy

According to this the Revenant has +5 Enegry regeneration baseline.
Does this also work ooc while using an upkeep skill like these Facets?

jheryn.8390:

Resorting to name calling doesn’t make your argument valid. Opinions just as easily may NOT change over time. Since I am almost sure you are not an ANet dev, forgive me if I don’t take your word on whether or not mounts could be implemented without affecting balance. And those that feel it would break their immersion in the game have as much right to feel that way as you do for wanting mounts. Yes, it may be a cash generator for ANet, but I am sure they can come up with ways to make money just as easily with mounts as without.

You don’t need to be an employee of ANet to think about possible consequences of the implementation.

What could happen?
Breaking immersion? Option to hide exist.
Affecting performance? Could be the case. How much? We dont know. Options to lower this impact? Existent.
Affecting PvE balance (because ppl in PvE get comfortable, not even necessarily faster, from A to B )? No, or show me how exactly this would be the case.

What crossed my mind, there are actually already “mounts” with a continuous movement speed increase: The kites from Silverwastes.
It’s only 5% without the sandstorm and therefore still a disadvantage using them outside of Silvewastes sandstorm.

But basically everything to implement mounts is already in the game:
- Mount-frame with increased movement speed
- Option to hide animations/objects on characters
- Option to improve performance impacts

What misses is just a skin for the mount.

Now you may say, if there’s everything available, but ANet still didn’t give us useful mounts, they simply don’t want them.
Maybe you’re right, but as long as I didn’t see an official response from ANet, clearly stating that there will never be mounts, I don’t give up asking for them.
And therefore I will keep this thread alive, making ppl remind of mounts just by seeing the thread title here and there.
Eventually this will be successful and ANet will give as a not-crippled mount-like thingy.

BrotherBelial.3094:

Or just accept that ANet don’t want people.blazing through there game. They want you to enjoy the view as you walk along. But hay we can just go around and around the end of the all day. The maps are just not big enough to warrant mounts. At the end of the day doing all the work mounts would take to shave off a few seconds of travel time is not worth it to ANet. Accept it an move on.

In this case Waypoints don’t make sense, since they allow you to skip parts of the map – without “enjoying them”. Even the possibility of achievable perma swiftness would be conflictive.

Nevertheless Waypoints and perma swiftness exist, so ANet gives us the possibility to speed up our traveling.
Why not making it more comfortable for everyone?

Again:
Adding PvE-mounts do not:
- affect/break balance
- make Waypoints unnecessary
- affect performance negatively (Mini-restrictions used)

It does add:
- Quality of Life
- Build Diversity
- Equality

Ardid.7203:

If a guy leaves perma-swiftness outside his character build is because he is choosing to privilege other area in his gameplay style rather than traveling speed. Being slower is the price for this, and he is choosing to pay it. Choosing being the key word here. Choice: when you can’t have it all. Balance revolves around choices too, and in this case we are clearly talking about PvE too, because WPs are more prominent here.

If mounts were able to give perma-swiftness, suddenly all the builds that lean towards traveling speed would become a no-choice. Everyone would ditch traveling speed for something else, and mounts will become mandatory for any build to be decent. They would become way more important than Legendaries in seconds.

IMO, this game makes a very good work balancing exploration and fighting THROUGH CHOICES. 33% speed through an ITEM will totally destroy it. That’s not QoL.

TLDR:
To the people who want to have it ALL, power AND speed, through an item.
To the people who want everything easy, WITHOUT HAVING TO CHOOSE.

NO.

Regarding in-combat mobility you are right. If someone wants perma swiftness there, he needs to build for it.
Movement speed while in combat without swiftness or 25% Runes/Sigil is awful imo.
Even if I had a mount with perma swiftness I would still use Streamlined Kits on my Eningeer.
But combat is not affected by mounts, so you still have to make the choice based on combat.

Also the upcoming mastery with +33% swiftness in cities conflicts with your argumentation.
Why should a slow class be on pair with a fast class in cities? They didn’t build for it.
You may say “Because both earned/trained it.”, but where is the differenct between training a mastery for more QoL and investing Gems for more QoL – everyone has the choice.

Astralporing.1957:

Inexor.7804:

And all ppl frequently using the “not often seen carpets” as argument, that ppl don’t want mounts: Stop it, it doesn’t prove anything.

Of course it does – it shows, that contrary to what people say in topics like that, they are not interested in mounts that offer no advantage. Which of course means that there is no real middle ground for people to agree on.
Which is why i am against mounts.

False, they would offer no advantages, if you could use weapon and utility skills (ooc) while being mounted.
This is not the case, you need to dismount/get dismounted in order to use these, so the current mounts are actually offering disadvantages and thats why nearly none uses them frequently.

Rauderi.8706:

Inexor.7804:

Coconut Shells like in Monty Python:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHFXG3r_0B8

These awesome clap-sounds inspire you and your friends to travel faster!

• Toy/Instrument
  Not useable in PvP/WvW/combat
• Grants 1 s swiftness every 1 s while equipped
  Social Traveling! Grants swiftness up to 5 ppl
• Clap sounds
  Instrument -> toggleable sound in options

Why?

• Quality of Life
  Comfortable traveling (no button mashing) even between Waypoints
• More Build Diversity
  Play the build you want, don’t miss events/loot because of your class/build choice
• More Equality
  Lowering ooc moving speed gap between fast and slow moving classes in PvE

I shouldn’t like this idea so much, but when you mentioned sharing the buff with allies, I’m kind of sold on it.
Bonus points for short interval times and the Toy/non-combat proposal.

I could also see it as a less silly item. Perhaps a guild flag/banner.

There are various possibilities: Banners, (olympic) Torch, Relay Stick, Hermes Boots, Drums..
But I still like the Coconuts more.

Coconut Shells like in Monty Python:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHFXG3r_0B8

These awesome clap-sounds inspire you and your friends to travel faster!

• Toy/Instrument
  Not useable in PvP/WvW/combat
• Grants 1 s swiftness every 1 s while equipped
  Social Traveling! Grants swiftness up to 5 ppl
• Clap sounds
  Instrument → toggleable sound in options

Why?

• Quality of Life
  Comfortable traveling (no button mashing) even between Waypoints
• More Build Diversity
  Play the build you want, don’t miss events/loot because of your class/build choice
• More Equality
  Lowering ooc moving speed gap between fast and slow moving classes in PvE

BrotherBelial.3094:

So with your own logic, if classes can have perma swiftness with little effort, why do we need mounts?

Only some classes have easy access and QoL in general, even for classes with rather easy access.

Guardian for example has to use two shouts and staff #4 to keep swiftness up all time.
Mesmer needs healing mantra with Rune of the Centaur, since focus swiftness doesn’t stack.
Necro needs Spectral Walk and Locust Swarm, while risking that Locust Swarm puts him infight, if he gets too near a mob.
Ranger needs to trait Resounding Timbre, a low cd shout e.g. Healing Shout and Warhorn #5.

Why being forced to do all that effort to keep up in PvE? What if I would rather like to play another build without being punished for that?
Mounts with perma swiftness or a PvE-wide +33% swiftness mastery would solve that.

Roguedemonhunter.9621:

They have the player character voice actors back for HoT!

NOW is the time for Monty Python and the Holy Grail style coconut shells in the gem store!

---

Sylvari male: "Steady old friend… " Clip clop… clip clop….“Easy now…”

*someone casts speed buff nearby

Sylvari Male: “At a Gallop!” *Faster-Clip clop- clip clop- clip clop!"

---

We would literally throw money at you Anet.

I like the coconut idea. AoE perma swiftness for e.g. 5 ppl with clip clop sounds. Would accept this too instead of a Hoverboard.

And all ppl frequently using the “not often seen carpets” as argument, that ppl don’t want mounts: Stop it, it doesn’t prove anything. I already said, these toys are crippling your movment speed, since you can’t use weapons or utility skills or need to frequently mount and dismount to apply swiftness.
I did this quite a while with the tunneling tool, but after a while I got annoyed from mounting and dismounting every few seconds.

Now if Anet would put a carpet/hoverboard/coconuts or whatever with +33% swiftness in gemstore (remember, toys already can’t be used in PvP/WvW) and it would not sell well, then you can say ppl don’t want mounts.

BrotherBelial.3094:

So people who have older rigs who can run the game will have no choice but to upgrade or buy a new rig that the added clutter mounts would bring. You have stated your opinion, zero facts.

Toggleable visibility, automatic lowering details – already implemented and working in the game. Mentioned serveral times and ignored even more times.

BrotherBelial.3094:

Mounts(with perma swiftness) would make waypoints some what redundant. Unless you are doing across the world travel. This would remove a gold sink, not a big one, but a sink none the less. It would also mean players who do not have mounts could miss out on events as a zurg of mounted players run around the map doing events/champs. Training mobs in to other players.

According to your logic, perma swiftness in general makes waypoints redundant. And since every class can already achieve perma swiftness, with more or less effort, I guess we could completely take away all waypoints – since they should already be redundant and not taking away gold.
Ppl already miss events, because their favourite/current played class/specc may not be the fastet. Adding mounts would give players with slow traveling speed the possibility to keep up, bringing them more in line with fast traveling classes (in PvE, ooc).

BrotherBelial.3094:

I personally see these as valid reasons not to have them. Also if the riding broom and carpet where.big sellers, I’m sure we would have.a lot.more.in the gem store, but I’m guessing that only having the two means they don’t sell well. And if people really wanted mounts that bad they’d have them and be riding around on them, but I’ve seen 1 riding broom and 1 carpet in the close to 3 years I’ve played this game. (I’m not counting the NPC on a broom in LA)

These mounts in fact just slow you down, since you need to switch back to apply swiftness and then mount again.
I liked my tunneling tool, but the switching annoyed me after some time and I put it away.
No one right minded would use a bike which actually cuts your walking speed by e.g. 50% or requires you to mount and dismount every few seconds.

Again: Mounts (with perma swiftness) for:
- more QoL
- more build diversity (no punishment for playing the specc you like and missing events because of it)
- more equity

Ardid.7203:

“Adding in-game benefits breaks profession balance.
Adding QoL breaks balance? Little hint: No!
Invalid.” False.

You are forgetting wich game are we talking about.

This argument could be true in other MMOs, but is not in GW2.

In GW2, exploration and movement are a major part of the gameplay. Getting fast from a point to another matters. Swiftness is not mere “QoL”. In fact, different professions are balanced and designed considering it, with totally different ways and costs to maintain it. It is clear to the point one of the bigger concerns about Rev is their current lack of a speed boost.

Any speed boost will impact the balance and focus of the game.

IMO, mounts are totally unnecesary, but they could be interesting to see, AS LONG AS THEY DON’T HAVE AN IMPACT IN GAMEPLAY. So, no speed boost.

As Rauderi already mentioned, calling ooc perma swiftness in PvE for all classes “balance breaking”, is just discrimination of those classes, which doesn’t have easy access to swiftness.

While Warriors or Thiefs rush over the map, tagging every single mob, other classes struggle keeping up and lose loot, exp, etc.
Giving access to perma swiftness to all classes and all speccs would only bring slow classes or slow speccs more in line with fast ones, in terms of traveling speed from A to B, Rekown Heart to Reknown Heart, Event to Event – or simply adding QoL.

In combat movement, PvP or WvW would not be affected, so theres absolutely no balance breaking issue.

They could even make content out of it, like in AoC, where you had a quest chain to get your mount – from getting the cub, raising it, training it, crafting equipment.

If they decide to expand the upcoming perma swiftness in cities on all PvE maps, without mounts I’m fine too.
But if I could capitalise it, while still being able to ensure ways to deactivate its optical aspect (e.g. toggleable visibility of mounts), heck, I would do it!

For the glory of Hoverboards!

Visual clutter.
Subjective, invalid.

Clipping issues galore.
Already exist on mass and they wont be fixed, so who cares.
Subjective, invalid.

Extra data processing for no in-game benefit.
Like all kinds of Skins, Races, Minies and Mail Carrier. Since none of them is adding “in-game benefit” only “extra data processing” they should get rid of them all. We would look all the same, but better performance yay!
Charater models, minies etc already get lowered/hidden if necessary.
Invalid.

Adding in-game benefits breaks profession balance.
Adding QoL breaks balance? Little hint: No!
Invalid.

Screws with selecting targets.
Neither it affects using Tab nor manually clicking.
Invalid.

Opens up debate for more related crap to get added that was previously agreed on would not be added.
Opinions may change over time. Mounts would be implementable without affecting balance or the immersion-bubble of all those whiners, while creating another cashcow for ANet.

Serious waste of developer time.
Creating things to sell them for money is what developers do. So if it brings money, its no waste of time – e.g. Minies, Outfits, Mail Carrier, Skins etc.
Invalid.

And again nothing more than dummy arguments and jealousy from the opponents.

The upcoming Mastery with perma swiftness in cities is nice. Maybe they will expand it on all PvE maps later. If this would be the case, I would be totally fine too.

My main reason approving mounts is just quality of life for all classes – mainly for those who haven’t/hadn’t a sigil/trait for speed, like Guardian or Mesmer (before Chronomancer).

As Engineer I have easy access to perma swiftness, even if its already some kind of OCD to press a key every 20s – sometimes even if I’m not on my Engineer.

And if I can get a nice Hoverboard-skin for my Engineer on top of perma swiftness, I’m fine as well. And ANet too, with an additional cashcow.

Mounts: YES!

• There are already some kind of mounts
  Carpet, kites, tunneling tool

• Only in PvE
  PvP/WvW already dont allow the kites, carpet, … no problem here.

• Permanent +33% speed on mounts
  It’s only a timesaver, since every class can specc for perma-speed. Yes, maybe you have to get ooc to respecc, maybe even carry a set of armor with runes around. But again it’s a matter of time and you have the choice to get yourself a mount or take the time to respecc or just run around in slow-motion. No problem here.

• Toggleable visibility for the immersion whiner
  Transformation of the Aviator Memory Box is only visible for someone himself → so hiding stuff is already implemented. No problem here with hiding mounts.

• There are already far more “unnecessary” things in GW2 and no one bats an eye:
  - Minis (even of dead characters – in your face immersion!)
  - Outfits
  - Armor/Weapon-Skins

• Anet gets another cashcow

Since everything already exists and mounts would basically just be a Skin with perma swiftness for lazy ppl, there is absoluely no reason to not implement them – except the jealousy of some ppl here.

And now take my kitten money and gief me a Hoverboard!

velhavn.7694:

too much lies……. baseline this, baseline that. all lies.

Exactly my thoughts.. I had all those false statements/lies in mind and while playing: Rifle range 1000? Wasn’t it supposed to be 1200? Explofinisher for Jumpshot? Nope. Coated Bullets? Nope.
Gadgeteer and Kinetic Charge got ninja nerfed between the streams and the final patch.. and Mortar got nerfed without anyone complaining about.

Now I’m pretty much disappointed.

Also annoying: The Medkit doesn’t work unterwater anymore due to ground targeting. So we only have 2 healing abilities left for underwater, since the turrent doesn’t work there neither.

I like the changes they made to the medkit, except groud targeting. Its too clunky to use now.
Trying to drop them infront of you while running around is just annoying.

I’ll stick with the turrent.

I like the look of the mortar kit, looks like a huge kitten shotgun on my Asura.

I really hope so.
But Engineer’s traits seemed to be the least finished ones in the Livestream, so I have some doubts. Maybe this doesn’t apply for the specialization.

My guess is Ranger.

I’ll just repost myself:

Watchwork Pick is superior fo all other tools, theres no reason to buy another one, except you want one skin really bad and are willing to sacrifice a nice bunch of extra gold.

Solution:
Splitt the gathering tools into three parts:
- Standard endless tool (standard pick-skin)
- Skin (Molten Alliance, Bone, ..)
- Effect (watchwork Sprockets, Azurite, ..)

The Skin and effect should be selectable like a finisher.

Then sell the single parts and some bundles as well.
In this way ppl who already have a tool could still buy skins and effects instead of nothing, because they would have an unused tool.

And now ANet gief me already my Hobo-Sprocket-Tron-Tool!

I’m perfectly fine with the change into a kit. Can’t wait to run around and let the hell rain down.

In the live stream they mentioned that Power Shoes will be merged into the Robo Legs-Trait. So there would be an alternative. I’m curious what the “swiftness has greater effect” for Robo Legs means. +50% instead of +33%? With the Med Kit, Elixir B and/or some Runes = Superior Zoom Zoom.

Anyway I hope, that they will change Kit Refinement to be only active while in combat or give every Kit a single cd. I would not like radomly being put into combat while running around in PvE.

eyestrain.3056:

Also disappointed no one else could see me nyooming around after interacting with the box.
Since so many people seem vehemently against this transformation I think it would be fine if you only saw others in airplane mode after interacting with the box yourself.

But I still wonder, what am I missing? What about it is so abrasive?

Dunno.. just some ppl who get offended by everything. They should play a singleplayer game, if others ppl presence annoys them. <.<
There are already ppl bunny hopping around, dancing, spamming skills just for fun, using transformation-potions.. so who cares about if there would be some in airplane-mode on top? :/

Astralporing.1957:

Inexor.7804:

Since everything already exists and mounts would basically just be a Skin with a Speedbuff for lazy ppl, there is absoluely no reason to not implement them

umm…

• Permanent +33% speed on mounts

That alone is reason enough to not have them.

Did you even read my post or just picked a random point to disagree? <_<
Every class can achieve perma-speed, with more or less effort. For QoL just take a mount, save the time to respecc/equip and enjoy your vehicle.

Mounts: YES!

• Only in PvE
  PvP/WvW already dont allow the kites, carpet, … no problem here.
• Permanent +33% speed on mounts
  It’s only a timesaver, since every class can specc for perma-speed. Yes, maybe you have to get ooc to respecc, but again it’s a matter of time and you have the choice to get yourself a mount or take the time to respecc or just run around in slowmotion. No problem here.
• Toggleable visibility for the immersion whiner
  Aviator Memory Box transformation is only visible for someone himself -> already implemented. No problem here.
• There are already far more “unnecessary” things in GW2 and no one bats an eye:
  - Minis (even of dead characters – in your face immersion)
  - Outfits
  - Armor/Weapon-Skins

• Taimi has Scruffy, who is a mount imo.
• Anet gets another cashcow

Since everything already exists and mounts would basically just be a Skin with a Speedbuff for lazy ppl, there is absoluely no reason to not implement them – except the jealousy of some ppl here.

And now take my kitten money and gief me dat Hoverboard!

The Aviator Memory Box is great, except you can not see others in “airplane-mode”.
And what also annoys me is that there is a cd on the box.
Change the map/go to WvW and the transformation is gone. Just drop another box? Nope, all you get is this annoying message: “You can not use this item again yet.”.

They should really fix/change these two points.

Put it on my Ranger, cause he has Volcanus atm.

And now, since every class, even Eles can run around with some heavy looking amor/outfit, ANet should allow every class to use all (heavy, medium, light) armor skins.
There would be so many nice combinations. <.<

Already has been mentioned several times:
Watchwork Pick is superior fo all other tools, theres no reason to buy another one, except you want one skin really bad and are willing to sacrifice a nice bunch of extra gold.

Solution:
Splitt the gathering tools into three parts:
- Standard endless tool (standard pick-skin)
- Skin (Molten Alliance, Bone, ..)
- Effect (watchwork Sprockets, Azurite, ..)

The Skin and effect should be selectable like a finisher.

Then sell the single parts and some bundles as well.
In this way ppl who already have a tool could still buy skins and effects instead of nothing, because they would have an unused tool.

And now ANet gief me already my Hobo-Sprocket-Tron-Tool!