Guild Wars 2

Hambow is only prevalent for point fighting, if you think you can fight off node with it anywhere near as well against a more slippery, longer range opponent, you’ve got some serious Dunning Krueger.

If you have the cap, then I’ll just pew pew you from 1.5k range, you’ll try to come after me, I’ll disappear, you’ll have no idea where I’m going and I’ll either decap the node or resume destroying you.

Longbow is easy to kite when you’re fighting off node. It’s only that effective because everyone and their mom fights on the node. You can’t tank stuff if you’re going zerkers, so sure a bad zerker build player is gonna get wrecked but I will not.

Sure, if I make a mistake your slobber can kill me, but if you don’t play well either you’ll get farmed, even with your Endure Pain cooldown.

I agree, an Engi can bunk for days against a Necro with all those boons and heavy condi clear… oh wait…

The game is as balanced as its ever been. S/D Thief is what you were looking for in terms of broken stuff – the Trickery Acro build is disgustingly good against just about anybody 1v1 and fast to boot.

Other than that build, the game is actually in a good place. Ranger QQers are polluting the forums with their nonsense, but the class just has to be played better than it has been in the past. There are still top 100 Ranger mains and the community is, ever so slowly, realizing that Zerker Ranger is actually pretty kitten good.

Ragnar you’re not seeing anything significant coming from Ranger pets because they’re not speccing into Beast Mastery or Pet’s Prowess or Agility Training.

Almost every Ranger build that ppl run just treats their pet as an extra ability and a condi dumpster, so yeah you’re not gonna feel any pressure from them.

It’s like a Warrior who doesn’t use Burst Mastery or Fast Hands, an Ele that doesn’t trait Arcane, or a Mesmer who doesn’t use Illusions. If you ignore your class mechanic it usually doesn’t end well..

Ex. of using Sic Em. D/P Thief drops blinding powder, use Sic Em, now he’s wasted initiative and is vulnerable to Rapid Fire/Barrage.

Longbow does not suck either. You just don’t know how to play with it effectively. If you consistently land the stealth shot and reposition yourself further from your target, then they have to play by your rules. Nobody has 100% stab uptime either, so point black shot can keep them away too.

Thief is actually not that strong against a well-played zerker ranger. If they go stealth while Rapid Fire is on, it doesn’t matter. If they run S/D, they can evade a lot but GS or S/D can evade/block pretty effectively too. Poisoning right before their Withdraw is brutal.

Not saying that Power Ranger is by any means meta (yet), but it’s a hell of a lot better than the complete mis-characterization you’re dumping on the forums (like you think you’re some kind of authority) makes it out to be.

Ya i think most Rangers are dealing with that fear of doing anything differently than what it has always been. They think they’re pigeonholed into a condi tank but they aren’t they just choose to be.

Warriors don’t really have any range and watching Helseth gave me the idea to translate that kind of approach to attacking far or side nodes into the Ranger.

Of course, the problem, like any roamer is gonna have, is what do you do when an S/D Thief comes over and starts slobbering on you. I’d think that landing your stealth shot and maintaining separation would be the most important part, but that build is so annoying.

Enough to know that I can easily beat you 1v1 with it and handle Necromancers on side nodes.

Engineers have access to just as much, if not more, blocking than a Guardian does if you build for it. I don’t think people really understand how strong an Engineer can be in that way with mitigating damage and being able to turn it into pressure. Guardian Rune turns blocks into burning, which you already get a ton of with Incendiary Powder.

Consider: A Guardian gets 20s of Aegis every 40s when they have Virtue of Courage up. Armor Mods on Engineer gets 5s of Aegis every 15s. That is an insane amount of blocking that you don’t have to anything to activate. Add that to Shield and Tool Kit, vigor on kit swap, and the mobility that comes with Speedy Kits and you’ve got speed, pressure, and mitigation all in one package.

Example build:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fdAQJAqelUUpErlcx+KseNCbBN6x0mtIqN+5DEgkC-TJhAwAW3fgcZgNnAAAPAAA

So when you consider how much blocking you can have, that makes a fight with a Necromancer, or anyone for that matter, a much different story than what the more common builds suffer with their weaknesses in specific 1v1s or 2v2s.

The problem rangers are having is they ignore their pet and think that’s going to work out well for them.

What does a Ranger have that other classes do not?

• Evades on every melee weapon
• Steady or Spike Pet Damage
• 1500 Range DPS Weapon
• Variety of different tactics from pet choice
• Water field that can be blasted and leaped through easily on your own
• Passive extra stun break and condi removal
• The only active access to revealed debuff in the game

However you slice it, Ranger has plenty of tools to help their teammates win matches and if they build traits that improve their pet, they can have an easy damage source that can punish the hell out of people.

Also, people are wondering how you beat Warrior on side node. Lately I’ve been playing Zerker LB/GS Ranger with a lot of emphasis on the pet and I don’t see any way for a Hambow or even Axe/Sword Longbow to be able to keep a node and survive against you in a 1v1.

It’s similar to a Mesmer using GS/S – blow them up from range, make them waste cooldowns, or tempt them to fight off node and then decap it using CC like Illusionary Wave/Point Blank Shot to prevent them from stopping you.

Again, ignoring your pet in traits while playing Ranger is pretty self-defeating. Can’t blame Anet if you don’t play the class the way that it very obviously was designed to do.

Everything is easier if the other team is consistently getting stomped out.

People like to say Conquest is Player vs. Point, but thats garbage because if you consistently get kills then you have an effective 4v5 or 3v5, which even the most ignorant team should win.

You have to ask the question of “Is this the right time to cap an undefended node?”

It takes time to get a full capture, time that can lead to your team wiping in a 3v4 or 3v2, while you might be stuck in a 1v1 or 2v1 that isn’t in your favor.

Good thieves will rotate to allies and secure kills that can lead to being more aggressive. Bad thieves just backcap every chance they get and end up screwing their teammates over.

The warrior has changed since launch. Back in the day, Warriors needed that mobility to get out of trouble and to fulfill the roamer role on a team in spvp. They weren’t really that great at home node with the exception of really good players.

Now the healing signet, cleansing ire, Zerk stance, tanky might stacking builds have evolved the warrior into something that, frankly, is a lot more like a Warrior than a bursty roamer.

The mobility isn’t appropriate for the class anymore. The Warrior is too tanky and too effective against other classes to be almost as mobile as a Thief.

ArrDee.2573:

Inscrutable.8347:

If Engis had great condi removal on top of:

• Incredible CC, single and AoE
• Incredible mobility
• Perma dodging
• The best AI build in the game
• AoE Damage
• Stealth
• Best active heal in the game

Then we would see a whole new level of broken that old school Hambow and Spirit Ranger would be humbled by.

Hello frands! Vee Wee here retired #1 Engi NA and world first rank 80!

We are not asking for thuper dee duper op condition removal like Necros or Rangers or Warriors! We just need more! Plus the Engi meta doesn’t have all of those things into one build! Don’t exaggerate you thilly goothe!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

I was talking about the overall pool of options available to Engineers which is pretty strong. Obviously that list is not meant to be describing one build thilly goothe. Engineer is by no means where Warrior used to be, with the worst condition defense in the game once upon a time.

If Engis had great condi removal on top of:

• Incredible CC, single and AoE
• Incredible mobility
• Perma dodging
• The best AI build in the game
• AoE Damage
• Stealth
• Best active heal in the game

Then we would see a whole new level of broken that old school Hambow and Spirit Ranger would be humbled by.

Bhawb.7408:

A good 50% of teams I see right now, in actual tournaments (like ESL) run Necromancers, even in EU which historically doesn’t run them as much as NA. The teams that don’t run them are ones like Helseth (who has the mesmer), or ones running things like double warrior. If a build can be used by properly skilled players at a high level, it simply means that the build in question has some mechanic that isn’t being fully leveraged by other players, or a weakness that isn’t being covered for. And I think both are the case, at a high level you see Necromancers with much better positioning such that trying to jump in and focus them will get you killed much faster than they die, and an ability to spike down boon heavy players that good teams capitalize on.

Inscrutable.8347:

• MM has almost no control over their minions and deny the Necro the ability to reinforce teamfights as effectively as other builds. AoE heavy builds demolish the minions, like Staff Ele, Bomb/Nade Engi, etc., there are no good stun breaks, and you’re forced to put most of your traits into minion buffs. It’s a gimmick.

If you’re properly playing MM you have enough control to make the minions do what you need. If you have the right build, this includes them having very meaningful teamfight utility. You don’t actually have to fully trait for minions, either, only Death Magic (6 traits) will be focused on your minions, 5/6 traits of which actually make minion’s deaths fairly trivial. The only thing that happens to an MM build in a teamfight is a drop in DPS, everything else remains constant. Also, MM’s stun break is so good that non MM builds use it, so I don’t see the point there.

Inscrutable.8347:

• Burst is better performed by other classes. Thieves are faster, can use blinds, stealth, and evades, Rangers are also faster, can pew pew from 1.5k, and Mesmer has portal, with Shatters being more effective. Necro is too slow without having to use Runes or giving up a Well.

Power Necro is a gimmick, that’s the only reason it isn’t used. You either single handily wipe a teamfight, or are fairly weak,it all relies on you landing fairly difficult to land projectiles.

Inscrutable.8347:

• Condi got nerfed a ton after they goofed up Dhuumfire because of the reason they gave on the stream. They want Necro to be an attrition class, and being able to 100-0 people with condis while having death shroud was too much. Now its becoming less effective to condi dump on people because Eles have easy condi cleanse again, Warriors just zerk stance and lol, Guardians can just bring Purging Flames, and people are moving away from running Engineers, who are a Condi Necro’s snack. Condi Necro needs at least one Condi teammates to diversify the conditions, like how Outplayed has a Condi Engi and Necro on the same team.

Plenty of teams have done just fine with condi Necros and not having someone to babysit them. So quite a few people have found ways to be successful regardless.

My point is that Necro does not have to be and, in my opinion, should not be run without placing an emphasis on life force and Death Shroud as its bread and butter. That’s your unique advantage – just when you think you’re gonna kill a Necro he has a full green HP bar and plenty of damage incoming from 50% more crit damage and a great hybrid damage toolkit.

Minions are just a gimmick. It is not good in teamfights at all, there are so many AoE heavy builds that crush the build its unreal.

• Hambow
• GS/Staff Guardian
• Bomb/Nade Engi
• D/D Ele
• Staff Ele
• Power Ranger (kite and pew pew)
• Condi Warrior

Condi is getting represented more because people realize that their 25 might can become a max stack of weakness with a Necro on your team, and that it can be spread to their teammates in 3v3s. I still contend that it’s not an optimal build because all it takes is a Thief/Mesmer focus fire and that dude is a smoking pile of dead. Just because people are bringing the build doesn’t mean it’s good.

Kiriakulos.1690:

Bhawb.7408:

Something to note as far as sPvP goes, a lot of teams are still using Necro well, and Helseth continues to show that Mesmer can still be played. So while we “should” be weak as far as normal accounts go, people have been making it work well.

Those seem more like outliers than a real representation of the profession’s strength. Dendi can wreck people as Pudge in Dota but that doesn’t mean Pudge is a strong hero.

As for what Inscrutable said:

MM, Condi and Burst don’t play to a Necro’s strengths?? The 3 most popular and universally accepted as most effective builds in the Necro forums are wrong?
Arrogant much?

Of course I suppose that not everyone has the genius to come up with this:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fRAQNAndWjc0UcbpNm3whbighSyW4Di8BCAq3iroXB-TJBFwACOFAL3fwaZAAPBAA

Of course that’s just a build that relies on power attacks and terror damage but doesn’t have any innate precision or condition damage. Oh right, Lich and Deathly Perception, yeah that’s a reliable source of critical strikes…

Problems with each

• MM has almost no control over their minions and deny the Necro the ability to reinforce teamfights as effectively as other builds. AoE heavy builds demolish the minions, like Staff Ele, Bomb/Nade Engi, etc., there are no good stun breaks, and you’re forced to put most of your traits into minion buffs. It’s a gimmick.

• Burst is better performed by other classes. Thieves are faster, can use blinds, stealth, and evades, Rangers are also faster, can pew pew from 1.5k, and Mesmer has portal, with Shatters being more effective. Necro is too slow without having to use Runes or giving up a Well.

• Condi got nerfed a ton after they goofed up Dhuumfire because of the reason they gave on the stream. They want Necro to be an attrition class, and being able to 100-0 people with condis while having death shroud was too much. Now its becoming less effective to condi dump on people because Eles have easy condi cleanse again, Warriors just zerk stance and lol, Guardians can just bring Purging Flames, and people are moving away from running Engineers, who are a Condi Necro’s snack. Condi Necro needs at least one Condi teammates to diversify the conditions, like how Outplayed has a Condi Engi and Necro on the same team.

• When you actually play my build you’ll see that it works. The only class that gives you significant problems will be a Thief, which you can deal with by running Well of Suffering / Corruption instead of Corrupt Boon so that you get the same kind of effect that a DPS Guard has with PBAoE. Thief has to get in melee at some point and Wells punish them for doing so. I do want to point out that lately I’ve run Pirate Rune and it’s just vicious.

I think people aren’t and haven’t been playing Necro right and the devs are stuck trying to weigh options that would break the class or keeping ignorant players unhappy.

If Thief is a striker, and Warrior is muay thai, then a Necro is jiu jitsu. Death Shroud and life force, like adrenaline for Warriors, is what people should be building around. The condi builds, MM Necro, and burst builds don’t play to the Necros strengths, which are:

• Fear and Terror. Every build that a Necro runs should have Terror as a minimum to take advantage of their cover condis that are in every weapon set. The proc traits and runes are only good if you know you’re not dealing with a bunch of stab, which is rare since most teams are running Guard, Warrior, Ele in their teams.

• Boon control. Spinal Shivers, Well of Corruption, Corrupt Boon, Path of Corruption dictate to Eles, Guardians, Engis, and Warriors who rely on them. If you can’t land those skills then l2play. A Necro, and Mesmer, should be in total control of boons in small and large fights.

• Life force, Death Shroud. No other class can replenish a second health bar and extend a fight like a Necro does. 1v1 should not be a problem for Necros with easy life force generation from Axe/Focus, Soul Marks, Spectral Armor/Walk, etc. This means that Vitality is important, so Carrion, Soldiers, Barbarian, and Celestial are the best PvP amulets for Necros.

• Lich form. This is such a devastating cooldown, and while good players can kite it, if you save it for key moments it will change the course of the game.

• Condition swapping/consuming. At least one weapon set should have this so you can punish people who want to dump condis on you, like Condi Warrior or Engi.

The part that people are going wrong is not seeing Necro as someone who can play sides. That’s what they can do best. While boon control is nice in teamfights, a Necro is not at their best without some if not full DS in those situations. More life force in the build lets you take just about anybody on and be able to handle them.

Also, the strength rune meta is literally the smartest idea I’ve seen from Anet. They are screaming at you, “TAKE NECROS AND MESMERS TO TEAMFIGHTS” and no one is listening. Arcane Thievery, Null Field, Well of Corruption, S/D Thief, Corrupt Boon are all calling your names folks.

The devs keep saying Necro is attrition and the players aren’t listening, so unless you want them to throw you another Dhuumfire bone that will enrage the entire community again please play your class better.

Well that depends how aggressive you were and if you were landing the skill shots. If you had condis, did you pass it back with Putrid Mark? If you were fighting an Ele, how many times did you corrupt / shivers his boons? Did you get any fear chains?

Hard to tell if you were playing it well or just trying it out.

• Mesmers complain about survivability when all they bring is zerker ammy. Who’s fault is that? There are exactly 328 points of defensive stats in that ammy. You think you’re supposed to be able to 1v1 with that? LOL

• Guardian is a teamfighter. I don’t know why any Guardian wouldn’t want 6 points in Virtues for team condi cleanse, aoe stab, and near perma retal. They get better the bigger the fight, and they have symbols to do a lot of damage in teamfights. They’re fine. If you don’t want to be a teamfighter, play another class.

• PU Mesmer extends the fight, but they can be beaten. My Necro build can 1v1 PU mesmer and embarrass them. The key to beating them is boon rip. If you corrupt boon, path of corruption, and spinal shivers, interrupt mass invis, and use marks to build life force they’re meat.

• I’ll 100% agree that warriors being able to reset so easily is bad for the game. It’s like if Necro had Portal or something. They have healing signet, stances, and cleansing ire, so it is not good for the game to be able to reset the fight with Sword, GS. The class has changed a lot since launch – back then Warriors needed to reset to survive, but now they can stay in the fight against anyone. The mobility has to be nerfed.

• Mesmers and Necros have no excuse losing to an Axe/Sword Longbow warrior. You can take their stability away, pass the condis back to them, and CC chain them while doing plenty of damage if you build more intelligently. My Necro build does not lose to them, and my Mesmer build doesn’t either.

• To back up my claims here are the links to my builds on Mesmer and Necro
• http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fRAQNAndWjc0UcbpNm3whbighSqWI6HIAOXq3iroXB-TJBFwACOFA92fwaZAAPBAA
• http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQJARWlknpMttpxUNMrNCuxYyFaA1BN0TlMgfB-TJxHwADuEAa2fYZZAAPBAA Note: the shatter boon removal is nice, but unnecessary because if you land Arcane Thievery, you actually steal the boons you’re trying to deal with instead of just ripping them. The damage is fine with perma 25 might

Kiriakulos.1690:

Inscrutable.8347:

• They wanted Necro to be a attrition class where you are nasty over time and have the tools to outlast anybody. The tools exist for that. The Necro does not need stability, teleports, or any of that stuff. It’s a very strong class at this very moment.

• Here’s the build I’m running right now that is crushing people on Necro. Warriors, Eles, Rangers, Engis, doesn’t matter they will either die or run. The proc damage, being able to lich when opportune, the only class that really gives me trouble on Necro is Thief with not being able to build life force as quickly with either evadespam or 5/2 D/P combos.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fRAQNAndWjc0UcbpNm3whbighSyW4Di8BCAq3iroXB-TJBFwACOFAL3fwaZAAPBAA

How can you consider the class with the worst sustain in the game in a good spot for attrition? That is completely counter-intuitive.

And based on your build, your anecdotal evidence is based on fighting worse players. I’m willing to bet most of your kills come from lucky Fire + Air lich auto attacks.

Your build is entirely reliant in Lich and DS forms for critical damage and power heavy, but has a lot of trait investment and runes into using fear. Why would you focus so heavily in fear if you have less than 400 condition damage? What’s the point of terror in that build?

Why take Reaper’s precision when you have so little crit chance outside of Lich and DS?

Why take staff and so many of its traits when you have so little condition damage and no condition duration?
For LF generation? You do realize soul marks doesn’t scale LF generated with number of targets hit, right?

Why take signet of undeath and spectral walk? Spectral Armor by itself is more useful than both put together.

If you’re are going to argue that Necros are “in a good spot”and are reliably killing people with the profession at least post a sensible build doesn’t bend over backwards for situational effectiveness.

Your analysis is the typical Necro response to anything that isn’t condi or max burst.

• Sustain does not have to mean healing power or hp regen. The life force generation in this build will keep up with Eles, Warriors, and Guardians sustain. Yes it’s counter-intuitive, because the Necromancer class is counter-intuitive. A caster that can fight in melee. Necro is like an Elder Scrolls battlemage, not a WoW mage.

• I will admit, like I did when I linked the build, that really good Thief players are an uphill fight. Life force is a lot harder to build when they’re in stealth or dodging all the time. Any other class, however, is easy to build life force on, easy to hit Spinal Shivers and Corrupt Boon, and even if they have a huge damage/survival ratio, my teammates can rotate over to finish them off if they try to 1v1 me for the 30 sec to 1 min it will take them to get close to killing me.

• Terror isn’t condi exclusive. Yes, you get more damage if you take a condi amulet, but I consider Terror fears to be the most unique and dangerous part of the class. It’s a combination of damage, CC, and support when used in team fights against focused targets. If they’re constantly being feared they’re eating more damage from Life Blast, Ghastly Claws, etc. Every bit helps. I’d put money on Terror being one of my better damage sources.

• Spectral Armor already comes from the trait line, so a second one is redundant. Necro is slow, so I would rather be able to get from a point to another faster and be able to res someone in a pinch than just double up on protection that a Thief can steal and hard counter me even more.

• Situational effectiveness? You’re just reading and making judgments that aren’t based on any testing. This build is very strong against most of the best Warrior, Ele, and Guardian builds.

• Hambow? No stab for you, enjoy getting feared every time you land any CC. Not enough dodges to prevent life force generation, so good luck trying to kill me.

• D/D Ele? I’ll pass your burning right back to you, build up LF easily, and corrupt / shivers all your boons. They still last a long time, but I have enough damage and utility to kill them.

• Medi Guard? Where are your boons bro? Oh did I pass that burning back to you? Why you hurt yourself with your confusion stacks from corrupt boon?

• Engi? Thanks Elixir B I love you long time. Engis are scared of Necros for a reason, for all their CC they have, they really have no answer to Terror Necro builds.

• Mesmer? I had a shatter opponent unload 3 mind wracks on me in zerkers and still couldn’t kill me. I dodged one of them, but didn’t need to dodge all of them. He still died.

• Ranger? ROFL. The feeling of turning a huge stack of regen into 10 bleeds is second to none. They can dodge a lot, which helps them a bit, but they don’t do enough damage to threaten me.

So I wanted to suggest some things before the show, but my forum sentence had to be served.

• Have Agility Training be default for Ranger pets or combine it with Pet’s Prowess. To compensate, you could move Honed Axes down to Adept and make a new trait that upgrades F2 attack damage, since Ranger is more about the pet.

• Dramatically nerf Warrior mobility by reducing range on Bull’s Charge, Savage Leap, Rush, and Whirlwind Attack a minimum of 50% each. The tankiness of the class is fine, their immunities, condi cleanse, etc. but being able to reinforce all over the map and escape to reset so easily is too effective. They ought to be a bit more mobile than Necro, but not much more because of their similar tankiness and copious access to swiftness.

• Dodge spam option 1: Increase the time elapsed on the dodging animation by 1/3 or 1/2 a second. I was thinking about ways to address the huge problems that S/D Thief and Energy Sigil builds present, and this would reduce the offensive effectiveness of builds that want to be able to dodge so much by creating more of an opportunity cost. More time dodging means less time attacking, so this would make those playstyles more balanced, because if they want to dodge spam they’re giving the enemy time to recover health, time their counterattack, etc.

• Dodge spam option 2: Have a 1/2 second GCD on dodging. This way, dodges would not be able to be spammed through entire chain attacks like Rapid Fire or Ghastly Claws, or completely invalidate Whirling Wrath or Wells. This would allow dodges to be as quick, but not be able to be spammed.

I also want to point out some things to the community that were actually a bit educational about the show

• Necromancers are NOT casters, they are NOT assassins. They have built the class around death shroud, so when you run builds that do not feature it the class is being utilized against its design. Anet was right to nerf the bleeds, dhuumfire, etc. because you already have boon rip, condi passing, condi drawing, and fear dmg and are ignoring Death Shroud.

• They wanted Necro to be a attrition class where you are nasty over time and have the tools to outlast anybody. The tools exist for that. The Necro does not need stability, teleports, or any of that stuff. It’s a very strong class at this very moment.

• Here’s the build I’m running right now that is crushing people on Necro. Warriors, Eles, Rangers, Engis, doesn’t matter they will either die or run. The proc damage, being able to lich when opportune, the only class that really gives me trouble on Necro is Thief with not being able to build life force as quickly with either evadespam or 5/2 D/P combos.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fRAQNAndWjc0UcbpNm3whbighSyW4Di8BCAq3iroXB-TJBFwACOFAL3fwaZAAPBAA

• Ranger pets hit very, very hard if you build for them. Like the Necro, people have been building Rangers outside of the pet instead of with it, so I believe Anet is right to keep player damage lower. It’s not their fault you don’t put points into Beast Mastery or take Prowess or Agility Training. You get a massive DPS boost that way and can take a really tanky amulet while enjoying that advantage. The AI isn’t the problem – your use of the attack and return buttons are. If they’re kiting, call the pet back, then sic him once you know the path hes gonna take is better.

• Eles and might stacking being so strong at the moment is more due to the fact that Necros and Mesmers aren’t punishing them than the classes being “OP.” If Necros built tankier and around DS, used their boon rips as a priority, while Mesmers also built a little tankier with null field and Arcane Thievery, there goes the 25 might advantage. This, of course, combined with other aspects of the class, like getting Halting Strike, Terror, etc.

• When you think about it, it was actually brilliant on Anet’s part to bring might to the fold like this because boon rip is more important now than ever. People still ignore it, so of course Ele, Guardian, Warrior, Thief, and Mesmer might stacking is going through the roof. When Necros and Mesmers figure out how they can leverage against that, they’ll see that they are not “underpowered” and if they are a bit sturdier they can go toe to toe with the meta and win.

• If you think boon rip isn’t that good, then you haven’t seen the devastation that ensues when you take a big ol stack of might from an ele, or turn stability into a fear chain on Necro. AoE boon rip is even crazier, you can prevent a stomp and preserve one with cc and aoe boon rip/corruption. It’s called teamfighting, look it up pls

If it were worth my time to reinstall this game I’d transfer to an EU server just to 3-0 you 1v1 with all three classes of Mesmer, Warrior, and Thief.

Luckily for you I’m not. I’ll let Sylvester chase you around Tweety

The Tweetymetala has spoken!

This is what happens you play Ranger too much the passive-active peek a boo playstyle turns you into… this.

I’m sure it had nothing to do with protection on dodge, the best dodging uptime on weapon skills out of all 8 classes, a water field heal that used to stack an enormous amount of vigor, great vigor uptime in general combined with 50% endurance regen, the ability to have an enormous amount of the boon regen, the enemy having to fight both you and your pet, the pet buffs made a long time ago, and Warrior being stupid weak for a very long time.

But yes, two builds are why Ranger dominated for so long rollseyes

Oidmetala.8426:

Inscrutable,
can you find yourself on this picture?

and are you try something like
go up to the level of the rest there? :P

I didn’t find myself actually because I am all those ducklings’ father. I did find you though. I think I’ll call you Tweetymetala now.

This “intellectual discussion” among Rangers is hilarious

Hey I think I just saw the king in a 1v1 with an asura warrior

Ah the delicious tears of the impotent Prince Valentine. A triple kit engi played well can kill every class, but has a risk/reward aspect to it.

Zerker ranger is a cute “counter” suggestion, which suggests total ignorance of the fact that Rapid Fire is easily countered by Tool Kit and trying to get in his face with GS will have every condi in the game except torment with a side of blindness dumped on you.

Cool story bro

Allie.9268:

Teutos.8620:

Rym.1469:

Eh, Courtyard is an awesome design and map. It’s only the players who can’t understand the importance of LoS, don’t desire to play with it. Maybe the two smaller pillars could be higher.

Instead, our PvP community likes smashing their faces on keyboard and playing on totally open spaces. Their, not designers’ fault.

I personally really like the centre of the map since wise usage of LoS can totally change the tide of play and avoid being focused to death with no escape (Necro).

There’s no tactic and brain invloved when there’s just flat area.

You are totally right, that it has some good ideas, but does it matter, if the community does not like it?

ArenaNet is not oriented toward the market. How much do you think your product matters if the marked / players don’t like it?

Am I wrong? – well, take a look at the number of players still playing TPvP, and you’ll get your answer…

Did you even read what Rym posted? He said he likes the map, then you say that the community doesn’t like it?

You realize it’s hard to take your posts seriously now when you blatantly disregard what others are saying, right?

Wow Rym congratulations you’re the unelected voice of the GW2 community. Courtyard is definitely getting into the rotation now, one person spoke up for it so here comes the next fingers-covering-their-earlobes implementation of an Arenanet project.

“Guys Rym likes the map, so the community likes the map! Skyhammer was a great map and now we’ve hit another home run!”

High five that hits each other in the head

Everything is OP to the sheep

I did contribute. People who need to stop feeling sorry for themselves need to be told exactly what I’ve said. Stop QQing and get better at Ranger.

lol lions do not concern themselves with the opinions of the sheep

lol its instructive to show you the authority that people who are smarter than the “best” and who “rule” can put you to bed without your supper.

Its hilarious that you find ele to be so easy when you would be incapable of doing what you describe they do. You have no idea how to play D/D, let alone S/D, if your tag is any indication you have never been anything but a bad getting carried by easy class mechanics.

Please make a 240p quality video of you playing Ele I want to be entertained Joffrey

Let’s put it this way Valentin

You are a Prince.

Helseth is a King.

I am the guy who makes Kings.

Oidmetala.8426:

Inscrutable.8347:

Oidmetala.8426:

Inscrutable.8347:

Oidmetala.8426:

snips the self-pitying QQ

You are a member of a team. The massive pile of QQ you dropped onto the thread shows how your class envy gets in your own way. Ranger doesn’t scale with huge fights so much, so why isn’t your team rotating to sides as a strategy with your Ranger taking more advantage of that? If you try to hammer a screw into wood, it doesn’t work.

In team fights, Ranger is best off node than on the node, with the easy SB bleeds from almost default flanking bonus is your best way to contribute there. It’s pretty easy to stack 15 to 20 bleeds in teamfights if you have lynx

I don’t care to compete in this game anymore because there is no incentive to except beating your chest on a game forum that nobody reads in a game that nobody who wants to compete plays. Props to you for loving the game that much, but I really don’t care what the “competitive scene” of this game thinks except for people who have been in the scene since beta, which is like 10 people total.

you just have no idea but want to talk for some reason, that’s all.
be sure, you don’t have to teach me or give me tips about basics how to play the ranger in this game.
i’m 100% sure i know it much better then you…

it’s also really interesting to call my topic a pure QQ, when i simply speak the truth.
or can you make power ranger, trapper ranger viable in high ranked tpvp?
just show me that then, should be not a huge problem?
if not go back to your cave where you come from.

i also main my ranger since beta if that is more important for you then peoples show good player skill in there professions.

if there is no patch for ranger coming in the fute you will not see any team use a ranger without a disadvantage compared to other teams give this 5. spot something else.

Yes because some whiny ranger who thinks he’s good thinks he knows “the truth” when its pretty obvious that you don’t know how to rotate into advantageous situations.

Nowhere in your “analysis” have you mentioned any understanding of the variety of things your pets can do, which is the unique part of playing your class. Do you time your knockdowns from your wolf? Do you have the micro skill to do that?

Do you just eat a bunch of damage on node, or do you know how to kite and buy some more time before your teammates come in and clean up? Do you time your evades and use energy sigil with Settler’s if you are trying to defend nodes, or do you actually expect a Carrion build to be good at both defending nodes and killing people?

I don’t get any impression that you have anything close to resembling mastery of your class.

http://www.twitch.tv/guildwars2/c/4151192
04:10:00
here you can see the whiny noob ranger playing in tol

http://www.twitch.tv/blu42/c/3832982
here you can see the whiny noob ranger playing in an esl vs cheese mode

http://www.twitch.tv/blu42/c/3832982
here you can see the whiny noob ranger playing in an esl vs cheese mode

http://www.twitch.tv/blu42/b/522673007
here you can see the whiny noob ranger playing in an esl vs lunch box and after that vs 55hp monks

there is much more like this where i played together with my team esl in games like this.
before i can’t see your body in something like this i will not take you serious when you talk like this to me about my player skill.
i never said i’m a super unbeatable player, but i have a good knowledge about tactic and how to play my role as ranger or guardian in this game, so i don’t need your opinion about what i do wrong when i play my ranger, you don’t even saw me playing i think.

i’m pretty sure i have much knowlede about this profession after i played it so long now actually.
the state of power rangers and trapper ranger have nothing to do with good positioning and good player skill.
it’s just not possible to be successful with this builds.
in my mind it’s also not any more possible to be successful like other profession builds can be with a spirit ranger build,
at least it’s to high risk and low reward to play with it actually.

90% of the hole ranger profession builds need (some more some less) help and the rest is 1vs1 bunker based builds which also don’t even work super well.

It’s pretty obvious you got carried. Your rotations were a mix of poor and average from watching the minimap.

Just because you show up to a big game doesn’t mean you did anything during the game.

Ele being one of the stronger classes is healthy for the game b/c its not easy for someone to pick up and win with.

Most ppl have been so spoiled by Warrior, Ranger, and Engi that they don’t know how to fight an Ele or how to play one. It’s not an easy class to learn and when played well is not an easy class to fight, so of course when its viable ppl scream like babies to nerf it.

Oidmetala.8426:

Inscrutable.8347:

Oidmetala.8426:

snips the self-pitying QQ

You are a member of a team. The massive pile of QQ you dropped onto the thread shows how your class envy gets in your own way. Ranger doesn’t scale with huge fights so much, so why isn’t your team rotating to sides as a strategy with your Ranger taking more advantage of that? If you try to hammer a screw into wood, it doesn’t work.

In team fights, Ranger is best off node than on the node, with the easy SB bleeds from almost default flanking bonus is your best way to contribute there. It’s pretty easy to stack 15 to 20 bleeds in teamfights if you have lynx

I don’t care to compete in this game anymore because there is no incentive to except beating your chest on a game forum that nobody reads in a game that nobody who wants to compete plays. Props to you for loving the game that much, but I really don’t care what the “competitive scene” of this game thinks except for people who have been in the scene since beta, which is like 10 people total.

you just have no idea but want to talk for some reason, that’s all.
be sure, you don’t have to teach me or give me tips about basics how to play the ranger in this game.
i’m 100% sure i know it much better then you…

it’s also really interesting to call my topic a pure QQ, when i simply speak the truth.
or can you make power ranger, trapper ranger viable in high ranked tpvp?
just show me that then, should be not a huge problem?
if not go back to your cave where you come from.

i also main my ranger since beta if that is more important for you then peoples show good player skill in there professions.

if there is no patch for ranger coming in the fute you will not see any team use a ranger without a disadvantage compared to other teams give this 5. spot something else.

Yes because some whiny ranger who thinks he’s good thinks he knows “the truth” when its pretty obvious that you don’t know how to rotate into advantageous situations.

Nowhere in your “analysis” have you mentioned any understanding of the variety of things your pets can do, which is the unique part of playing your class. Do you time your knockdowns from your wolf? Do you have the micro skill to do that?

Do you just eat a bunch of damage on node, or do you know how to kite and buy some more time before your teammates come in and clean up? Do you time your evades and use energy sigil with Settler’s if you are trying to defend nodes, or do you actually expect a Carrion build to be good at both defending nodes and killing people?

I don’t get any impression that you have anything close to resembling mastery of your class.

I guess you guys must have checked when the map went live and still use that data b/c anybody who has played this game knows that the ragequit and 4v5 is more common there than anywhere

Oidmetala.8426:

snips the self-pitying QQ

You are a member of a team. The massive pile of QQ you dropped onto the thread shows how your class envy gets in your own way. Ranger doesn’t scale with huge fights so much, so why isn’t your team rotating to sides as a strategy with your Ranger taking more advantage of that? If you try to hammer a screw into wood, it doesn’t work.

In team fights, Ranger is best off node than on the node, with the easy SB bleeds from almost default flanking bonus is your best way to contribute there. It’s pretty easy to stack 15 to 20 bleeds in teamfights if you have lynx

I don’t care to compete in this game anymore because there is no incentive to except beating your chest on a game forum that nobody reads in a game that nobody who wants to compete plays. Props to you for loving the game that much, but I really don’t care what the “competitive scene” of this game thinks except for people who have been in the scene since beta, which is like 10 people total.

Valentin.2073:

inscrutable is obviously flamebaiting.

I tend to agree that I make people mad when I call out their inability to play the class but I am not trying to as a goal.

@ Sol

Thank you for providing a more detailed response that shows an actual understanding of the Ranger class.

I will disagree and agree in your assessment. Ranger is now a bit weaker 1v1 than the previously dominant position it has had over the 2 years that GW2 has been out, but a Ranger can still hold their own for a good while against Warriors and even those Bubble Engi builds. Their matchups are a lot more even than it used to be, so, naturally, a lot of Rangers who got carried by the initial advantage that they had are having trouble outmaneuvering their opponents.

Decap Engis are annoying as hell for everybody though, not just Rangers. It’s pretty difficult to keep one from doing his job of decapping the point, so it isn’t a failing of Rangers to prevent that so much as how easy it is for a team to fall into the trap that Decap Engis are setting.

The skilled players of this game, as few of them as there are, have become a bit smarter than they were a couple years ago. I say a bit because most of the best competitive minds of the game are gone, but I have to recognize that the people who have stuck with the game have learned from experience.

This is manifested by the Decap Build, which has been possible since launch, but wasn’t really used because people didn’t see the tactical advantage of it at the time. Decap forces the other team to look at their rotations differently than “we have a guy to 1v1 at home and everyone else fights mid.” This strategy cuts off the 1 point that ppl have been taking for granted, choking their point flow and potentially keeps them from getting it back if they keep trying to 1v1 him.

So, like Apex was offering as advice, know your limits. If you know you don’t have the ability to kill a Decap Engi fast enough, or prevent the decap, then flip the points. Take their far. If your team rotates toward you instead of getting kitteny and yelling about going far, that Decap Engi isn’t doing his job anymore. If he rotates back to their home, then your team has to rotate to the now-empty home node.

Team Rotation and a Team Character Building Strategy is how you win in this game, and what ends up happening is people fight where they’re weak, don’t use the terrain to their advantage, and rotate where they shouldn’t. They blame the builds and QQ about their class b/c nobody cares to communicate or form teams anymore, so when they get blown out in solo Q or when they get matched up against 5 ppl who actually think, they blame the winner instead of themselves, the loser.

So in conclusion, Ranger isn’t weak by any means – the attitudes and poor strategic minds of self-pitying Ranger players are weak.

Valentin.2073:

are you talking to me? i was once at the top 200 in teamq and top 500 in soloq then i stopped playing because of some things i needed to d irl. the nerf to the spirit build was completely unfair after what they did to engineers and ele’s. they overnerfed the ranger class and overbuffed the others. i find it unfair and that is my opinion.

Top 100 EU and Top 50 NA is the only place where informed opinions are actually formed.

The threadopener was playing in Tol btw.
We dont say ranger isnt viable, we say there are better options or easier to play professions which give better results.
But what i really hate are such son of a …. like you who insult others to be noobs.
You wont be able to play top 100 if you dont know how to kite, peel and blablabla , nbut i guess you where won of this tards which unload their whole burst in the rangerevadeskills while complaining how OP spiritranger or BM or whatever was.

Nope I was too busy killing their teammates while they went afk on the home node like morons.

Can we get another video of your prowess with the extreme skill required ranger class. Was an inspiration to everyone on how to successfully play a power ranger

thx

This implies he made a fail video can you link pls i wanna see XD

If you’re good at ranger you’ll still have a place on any team that wins in Team Q and be able to win in Solo Q.

Most of you ppl have no idea what chokepoints, kiting, peels, overextending, or LoS is, so how can you be qualified to determine what is OP or not, or if a class is viable or not.

That’s why the best players can go afk for months and still destroy all of you in tournaments. QQ moar pls

Uh what?

Spirit Ranger is still a strong build, but it’s supposed to be a support build not a dueling and support build like it used to be.

Pretty weak to want old Storm Spirit back and what is still the best elite in the game to be stronger than it already is.

Opportunity cost.

Why spend time on GvG when you can build a shopping mall and lure a bunch of WoW players in that can play dress up and not have to tank or heal anymore?

What makes GW2 agonizing is that the game mode is not supported by the devs in anywhere near the kind of way other games do. The combat system is just better than everyone else’s. The dodging mechanic is so great, and once you are familiar with how the classes work you really see how the best players in GW2 are worthy of applause.

Anet has clearly written off PvP development as a long term thing in pursuit of more appealing opportunity cost-determined goals, like giving people more microtransactions to buy, launching in another part of the world, etc. They knew they screwed up PvP from the start and there just isn’t justification to reinvest and rebuild the game from their business perspective.

This isn’t Square Enix folks, they don’t have the guts to rebuild something that people have largely agreed is not working. They’d rather just work on something else and be okay with mediocrity. They’ll “but what if it doesn’t work” counter-argument that every single time it’s brought up.

PvP was written off a long time ago. Look up opportunity cost and you’ll have every answer to why this game still lets 4v5 matches happen, why maps most people want removed are still in rotation, and why there isn’t a ladder/season system.

They’re not trying to make a high quality experience – they want to increase profits and get as many sales and microtransactions as possible, which is going to stagnate the game and make an already apathetic playerbase even more so. Even the PvE people are tired of running the same dungeons, fractals, and the same events.

Hate to break it to you guys, but this game is literally impossible to balance.

If you measure each class by a factor approach and even reduce the number of factors by the restrictions, even a conservative estimate has every class in GW2 possessing hundreds of millions of combinations of traits, runes, sigils, and amulets. The total factor is probably in the billions.

Add that to more than 120 different combinations of classes for random matchups, since classes can be stacked, and matchmaking becomes additionally impossible to organize, since a class can be built in so many different ways.

Anet realizes this, which is why they make changes according to their own standards and whatever feedback they feel won’t alienate the noobs b/c there’s literally no way to put the classes on a board and say, this class matchup and this team matchup should get X change, Y change, without spit balling it.

I personally think the only way to get balance in this game would be to remove traits, amulets, runes, and sigils, in PvP, picking the weapons, utilities, and elite that most represent the class and provide a clear role that works in team play.

At that point the classes would be much easier to balance since there is only one build that players would have to master. The testing done for class matchups would be relatively simple, as opposed to having to research what the players use the most in competitive settings and collect feedback from ppl who don’t know what they’re talking about.

The game would be more competitive and each class would be easily balanced to have advantages and disadvantages, allowing the better players to overcome a matchup disadvantage on their main class by outplaying their opponent without such a high a barrier to that possibility, like a Warrior just switching his build to heavy CC when he sees a Necro and then smearing him all over the floor b/c he hard countered him.

If you took away class stacking, that would reduce the number of combinations of teams considerably, and if you queued up classes based on a designed trinity role that would reduce the factor even more, making matchmaking by class possible. Could be like 3 classes frontline, 3 midline, 2 backline or something. Ele and Guardian as backline, Mesmer, Thief, Necro midline, and Warrior, Ranger, Engi frontline or something.

Sadly, this is never going to happen so good luck playing this game and its everything’s subjective, play how you want, nonsensical balancing act.

“Viability” according to most of the players of the game is being able to win 1v1s on sides and spamming AoE on point. Those are pretty crappy standards for team strategy, so I’d recommend looking at this link:

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Team_roles

After reading that, think about how the examples in there and the strategy therein can be applied to GW2. Most of the “competitive community” in this game is pants on head kittened when it comes to team strat, so you’d be better off learning from the best PvP MMO players’ strategies than anything these yolo Q heroes have to say.

I can see a frontline-midline-backline working with proper execution. I say this with total confidence because that’s a way you can describe Apex’s comp and they won every game except one they had a miscommunication on against almost a complete mirror comp.

As far as where Engi fits into that, they can do any of those three roles to a certain degree. If you wanted a healer style Engi you could run Clerics, Elixir Gun, Healing Turret, Sigil of Renewal and be able to provide pretty impressive CC while healing your team pretty well.

Midline everyone is familiar with how Engis can smother a point with condis, but the problem many Engi players have is they don’t mix it with more utility. They do this because they’re scared of getting trained by the other team and because they don’t have a frontline that peels for them.

Frontline Engi can peel for people better than just about anybody. If you’re worried about ppl focusing your Necro, you can bring Bomb/FT and laugh at them trying to get on top of him. Tool Kit can pull people away from your teammates. You can immobilize an entire side node with Bomb 5. If you evade spam, build tanky, and have all this CC most ppl are not going to be able to cap a node, and your team can reinforce for easy kills while they rage in TS about your build.

I’ll say it again. Learn from the minds that made GW1 PvP so great, not the leftovers from the mass exodus that occurred at GW2’s launch b/c the game was in pre-alpha at release.

Do you even know what you’re complaining about?

Ostricheggs.3742:

XacTactX.6709:

Inscrutable.8347:

a t s e.9614:

Super.2749:

engineer is totally useless in this meta. Can’t team fight, gets destroyed by condi warrior, have to play perfect to survive a hambow or a mesmer in 1v1, gets destroyed by necro 1v1 , really hard to beat eles also, only easy matchup is 1v1 vs thiefs but in 2v2s gets destroyed by thiefs lol.

engi/warr are the fotm classes right now in Solo Q and a bit of guardians too.

Engi takes a dump on everyone in solo Q because it’s solo Q. Ppl don’t peel for each other, haven’t practiced 2v2s or 3v3s with their teammates, aren’t building to complement one another, aren’t in TS, are trolling each other, don’t regroup on wipes, don’t play even halfway decent builds half the time, and even the decent ones they use are copied and pasted from the forums / intothemists.

It works there b/c people do incredibly stupid kitten all game and will eat all of the AoE because most ppl don’t realize that fighting on point against an Engi in solo Q is a death wish unless you’re a Hoelbrak/Melandrus Soldiers Cleansing Ire Warrior who doesn’t give a kitten about condis.

Ppl don’t defend nodes and run around like idiots all match, so you can pretty easily take advantage of numbers situations, like 2v1 the idiot who wanted to run all the way to the far point and die, 2v1 the afk MM necro at their close, or whatever.

So ya Engi works in Solo Q because ppl are stupid and useless there. In real competitive games in higher ranked tpvp, however, Engi starts to fall off in their usual kitten spam builds and instead of building to peel for them, like how Necros are ignored, people just roll another class.

Please tell me what it means to peel for someone, I can tell its a type of strategy and I wanna learn.

This man is right. There is no such thing as “peeling” in this game. It literally doesn’t exist outside of bunkers providing clears/stomps etc. At most you can put on pressure to their DPS through damage itself, but rarely through CC…

On topic, people are gonna give the engi a hard time because the meta has changed quite a lot. I just want engis back to where they’re interesting again. Grenade aim don’t mean nearly as much anymore, but a good engi is still noticeable in any team at the very least.

Peeling isn’t supposed to kill people it’s supposed to deny access to teammates. Of course you have to DPS people to kill them, but what peels do is prevent, for just enough time your teammate needs, what could have been a lot more pressure.

What you’re talking about are solo Q tactics. You’ve always been a solo Q player, so it only makes sense why you would think that actual team play doesn’t work b/c nobody works together in solo Q or yolo team Q. Especially on NA where trolling each other and the other team > everything else.

I guarantee you that good EU players will disagree with you about how “peeling doesn’t exist” and that Apex recognizes how they can peel for each other with their comp.

a t s e.9614:

Super.2749:

engineer is totally useless in this meta. Can’t team fight, gets destroyed by condi warrior, have to play perfect to survive a hambow or a mesmer in 1v1, gets destroyed by necro 1v1 , really hard to beat eles also, only easy matchup is 1v1 vs thiefs but in 2v2s gets destroyed by thiefs lol.

engi/warr are the fotm classes right now in Solo Q and a bit of guardians too.

Engi takes a dump on everyone in solo Q because it’s solo Q. Ppl don’t peel for each other, haven’t practiced 2v2s or 3v3s with their teammates, aren’t building to complement one another, aren’t in TS, are trolling each other, don’t regroup on wipes, don’t play even halfway decent builds half the time, and even the decent ones they use are copied and pasted from the forums / intothemists.

It works there b/c people do incredibly stupid kitten all game and will eat all of the AoE because most ppl don’t realize that fighting on point against an Engi in solo Q is a death wish unless you’re a Hoelbrak/Melandrus Soldiers Cleansing Ire Warrior who doesn’t give a kitten about condis.

Ppl don’t defend nodes and run around like idiots all match, so you can pretty easily take advantage of numbers situations, like 2v1 the idiot who wanted to run all the way to the far point and die, 2v1 the afk MM necro at their close, or whatever.

So ya Engi works in Solo Q because ppl are stupid and useless there. In real competitive games in higher ranked tpvp, however, Engi starts to fall off in their usual kitten spam builds and instead of building to peel for them, like how Necros are ignored, people just roll another class.

Apex isn’t overpowered. They admit that they’re slow and rely on skirmishes to play 3 points.

They have a 2 frontline, 1 midline, and 2 backline comp. They aren’t very fast so they rely on people trying to take on their combination of backline + frontline or 2x backline + frontline and beating their heads against the wall.

This is what they mean when they said they want people to take on the staff ele, guard, and spirit ranger. That 3 man team is not going to die and even if they did get downed, the Spirit res would get them right back up.

They will have problems, however, when the other team is able to out-rotate them and neutralize Hman. Every team has a midline or two midlines that, if dealt with, make their team a lot easier to beat.

This happened with CC vs. SYNC in the Invitational. Caed was neutralized the whole series, making their damage output considerably lower and made Zombify easier to deal with.

So I’d recommend starting off with a 2 frontline, 2 midline, and 1 backline build and prioritizing team mobility to counter them.

Ex.

F: Soldier’s Hambow Warrior
F: Settler’s A/D S/T Ranger
M: Zerker Portal HS Mesmer
M: Trickery Acro S/D Thief
B: Staff Ele / Healing Guard

Soldiers Hambow and Settler’s Ranger can handle some pretty crazy situations for a while. Intelligent Portal play and rotation with S/D and Mesmer would isolate Apex from their backline, hitting them where they’re weakest instead of hitting the brick wall with your bare hands. The Staff Ele / Healing Guard + Hambow and Ranger would be your equivalent of Apex’s teamfight group, being really hard to kill and being able to keep a node indefinitely.