Guild Wars 2

Please, for the love of god, NO more PvE in WvW.

We already have a PvE map with a kinda-sorta PvP flavor with EotM … so there is no need to turn the Borderlands into that as well. If anything, I would much rather see a decrease in random NPC (not including Lords, Guards and such) in the borderlands maps.

Shockwave.1230:

I am always curious why ppl complain about thieves in WvW. I’d appreciate if the complaints came with addition context such, as 1v1, 5v5, zergVzerg, and any additional environmental context that’s relevant.

In general I get the feeling people are upset about 1v1 situations where their build isn’t setup for a dual and a thief’s is, so additional context would be helpful.

Also stealth doesn’t allow contesting of points unless someone is somehow exploiting a bug.

Shock, you have just summed up the entire issue. Bravo.

In essence, this, and only this, is the reason for the endless QQ about stealth/clones. The entire stealth mechanic is basically a “one-venue pony” so to speak: WvW solo or small group roaming. In all other venues the stealth mechanic is at best average, and often a poor trait-line choice.

BUT, but … you have to remember the psychology involved here. When you die to a NPC or even a WvW zerg blob, it has little impact or meaning — but when a player dies (or is frustrated by his opponent being able to easily disengage) to another real-life player – for many, especially adolescents, they take it very personal. The Rage/QQ against stealth is not new, and can be found in every single MMO that has a class that specializes in stealth. In this respect you simply have to take the QQ with a grain of salt, and ignore it mostly.

The bottom line is that some players, especially those that like to roam in WvW, believe that they have some kind of “right” not to be frustrated, and since stealth and clones do just that, many (not all) re-act like frustrated children, ie, they throw a “forum tantrum”. By the way, this is NOT true of everyone, as there are many folks that do just fine in WvW solo/small group roaming on non Thief or Mesmers classes. In fact, many of them specialize in killing thieves/mesmers. But that won’t get you anywhere in these discussions; because a 16-year old tantrum thrower that just got stomped 3 strait times trying to 1v1 a thief with his PvE build, he does not want to hear it.

Pets are terrible .. bad … they sux … Anet needs to fix this asap or they will lose ALL their players. Rangers are unplayable because of pets. The Ranger class suxs … Rangers are not wanted in any part of the game … Rangers sux in WvW, sux at 1v1, sux at PvP, sux in Dungeons, and even sux at PvE … and they sux because Anet have pets for noob players. Also Rangers need to get back the 30% dps lost from pets .. or is it 40%?, or is it 60%? … no, its 70% … yes, that’s it, we need 70% dps increase.

I demand that Anet completely re-design the Ranger class so I can sit at 1500 range and do melee level damage with my long Bow, and at least 4 of the longbow traits need to be standard (piercing, 1500 range, 5% dps boost, and RTW) all these should be STANDARD. Also Ranger should have highest mobility in the game, so if something goes wrong, they can get away better than any class. Anet has broken this Archer/Sniper class with their useless pets.

I have a 10,000 word essay on a Ranger re-design that Anet should use, please see link …

I also spam posted the CDI with over 300 posts that asked for more sniper pet-less options.

Pets sux …. I was the best ever-ever sniper ranged player in WoW , I could get 1 or 2 shot kills from range, and almost never die … and I could run away better than anyone ever-ever. This is what we Rangers need here … And someday when I lose 100 pounds and get down to only 250lbs, I will get a girlfriend, but I digress … Also need Thieves to be nerfed, no more stealth!, and warrior need nerf, no more passive heal, and Necros need nerf, no more D-Shroud and … well, anything and everything that I can’t deal with need nerfs. We MUST have these changes for game BALANCE. All I really want is BALANCE.

Pets … sux …………………………

DrDivine.5378:

After maxing a mesmer, warrior and necro I kinda wanted to make a ranger next since I have the black widow pet and never got to use it. Similar to WoW with Hunters, I’ve always kind of heard Rangers are the bottom of the barrel, but recently I’ve seen a few in PVP that actually did very well.

What do you think of a trapper ranger or the class in general?

When deciding what class to play or try out, don’t walk, but RUN away from these forums as quickly as you can. Because for anyone willing or interested in trying a particular class, 90% of what you will read on these forums is pure poison. So go ask your guildies for advice, and just jump in and experiment yourself – but don’t look here. And this is not unique to the Ranger sub-forum … trust me, there is also a mountain of QQ tears in the Necro, Ele, Thief, Mesmer, and even (gasp!) the Engineer and Warrior forums.

Now once you have a class down at least partially, then, yes, these forums can be constructive. Because hidden beneath the endless pile of teenage QQ and tantrums there are also a great many good posts with builds, tips and good advice. In that sense, these forums can actually be a very good resource.

Basically, when it comes to Ranger (or any other class for that matter), if you take the class for what it is (and NOT what you would like it to be), and play to its inherent strengths, you will do just fine. If on the other hand, you have a set in stone preconceived idea of how the Ranger “should” play, and attempt to force that play-style onto your toon, then you will no doubt be disappointed. And then you will be able to join the ranks of the self-appointed “forums class re-designers” and post endless self-serving drivel claiming to want changes for “balance”, but in reality, wanting those changes for anything BUT balance reasons.

Don’t listen to the crowd, and test it out yourself …. nothing beats first-hand experience.

Where is Burnfall?

The forums (and especially the Ranger, Thieves and Warrior sub-forums) are just not the same without him. Because nothing made visiting the forums better than reading a couple of Burnfall posts, they were priceless. His posts always got the automatic +1 up-vote from me.

Oh God, please, please don’t tell me he finally learned how to kill thieves in WvW !

For Justice and Truth !!!

Gercoa.7490:

Well, since I have the Kudzu, then it’s still pointless to play. Thanks for the info…

I’ll check back in another 6 months or so.

ahahahahahahaha ……

That was just too perfect.

It depends on who you ask.

If you ask a Ranger that wishes he could be a pet-less long-range sniper dealing massive damage safely from afar , then yes, Rangers still suck … and according to him pets sux, and LB sux, and …………………

On the other hand, if you ask a Ranger that plays to his professions strengths and has at least a decent knowledge of other classes abilities (and weaknesses) … then the answer will be, no, they do not “suck”.

Of course like each and every class, there are a few tweaks and changes the Ranger could really use, but that’s besides the point.

1. Rangers that rolled their class knowing full well that its core mechanic was a pet, and then go on to whine/QQ endlessly in the hopes of a total redesign of the class into a pet-less long-range sniper class.

2. Rangers that stubbornly refuse to play their class to its inherent strengths in Dungeons or WvW roaming, and then go on to endlessly whine/QQ in the hopes that the class receives a total redesign to suit their own preferred play-style and everyone else be kittened.

“How to not be a bad ranger at pvp/wvw”

As far as WvW roaming goes, first and foremost, learn how to fight common solo roaming classes (Thieves, Mesmers and Warriors jump to mind). Otherwise you risk becoming one of the oh-so-many forum posters creating the daily, “X class are OP, please nerf” threads. You don’t want to be “that guy”; you know, the video game tantrum thrower that blames his losing on another class’s mechanics, instead of his own lack of knowledge or playing skills.

Both in WoW and Lotro, I was a dedicated solo/small group WvW roamer. Having decided to give GW2 a whirl, and knowing that my play-style would not change, I immediately made it a priority to become very familiar with the mechanics and skill rotations of other classes in general. And since obviously, the high-burst squishy stealth class would be out in force in this games WvW just as in all other MMOs, I made learning stealth mechanics and weapon skill Thief rotations a priority.

So I rolled my Ranger, did the PvE thing to 80, geared up and then did the WvW zerg-blob thing for a short while ( I despise zerg-blobbing, but I needed to understand it regardless). Then I did 2 things: 1. grabbed a well regarded WvW Thief and Mesmer player from my guild and asked him to duel me over-and-over again while also explaining what, how and why he was doing the things he did and how his rotations work with different weapon skills. and 2. Later on I rolled a Thief myself, leveling it exclusively in WvW, and solo 99% of the time. This all sounds like a lot, but in realty it took very little of my playing time to do, and the pay-off more than made up for the learning-curve effort. Also, a few nasty experiences being pawned by Necros straight away sent me “back to school” with a well played Necro player in my guild.

Now let me get something out of the way: Yes, hell yes, I still get my butt handed to me by many a good player out there (and no doubt will continue to) – but I ALSO get my own very big fat share of kills too, and many against those very same good players. Oh, and BTW, believe me, killing Thieves or Mesmers is not nearly as hard as the tantrum throwers make it seem. But they will annoy and frustrate the hell out of you, so if you think you have some kind of “right” not to be annoyed or frustrated, take a pass on WvW roaming and stick to the Zerg-blob.

And lastly, you have to be honest with yourself. What I mean by this is, if you are by nature hot-headed, thin-skinned or extremely casual in your gaming approach – WvW roaming (especially solo roaming) is something you should pass on. Because it will only make you mad as hell, and possibly it could even turn you into “that guy” on the forums; the whine-QQ master that has a million reasons why his class needs buffs and the other guys class needs nerfs – but among those million reasons, not a single one point to his own short-comings.

I 100% agree … Anet needs to remove ferocity and precision.

And then, they need to remove Vitality and Toughness.

Later on, when they launch an expansion, they can eliminate Condition damage and Healing power.

And if we are really lucky, in a year or so … they will eliminate chronic whining from the forums.

Colly.4073:

Thieves are played by people who don’t feel confident in open field and so pick the class that can disappear when things don’t go the way they want them to.

D/P Thief is a prime example.

What you stated is partially correct. The part about people that want to, as you say, “disappear when things don’t go the way they want them to”, that you got right. Better stated though, would be, picked by people that prefer a class that can disengage and/or has high escape skills. The part that is total nonsense is the, “don’t feel confident in open field” crap you spouted.

You see, Warriors are class that many people pick to do high levels of damage while retaining inherently high survivability. It’s not a lack of confidence, it’s a preferred play style.

And Ranger’s are a class often picked by people that like having a side-kick to help keep some pressure off themselves and as a distraction to others. It’s not a lack of confidence, it’s a preferred play style.

And Guardians are a class often chosen by people that enjoy support roles, or just being tanky as hell and very hard to kill. It’s not a lack of confidence, it’s a preferred play style.

And Elementlists are a class ………… It’s not a lack of confidence, it’s a preferred play style ……… and so on.

Look, I get it, you find it particularly annoying fighting a class that can disengage well, and it frustrates you. Got it. And that’s okay, because they annoy me too – LOL. But the things that annoy or frustrate me personally, do not then by inference make the people that do them " insert negative adjective or pejorative remark".

So relax, enjoy the game, and have some fun. And when you feel annoyed, laugh it off, after all: its only a game.

Grimezy.5679:

It sounds like you’ve invested a lot of time into the game and it’s only natural to feel like you’re running out of things to do – it would be the same on any game (heck most AAA titles have 10 hours of gameplay and that’s it).

At the end of the day I’m not sure what you were looking to achieve from playing an MMO? You say you look at all your progress and feel it’s been for nothing but what did you expect? It’s a video game on the internet, it can’t satisfy you for the rest of your life, nor can you ‘transfer’ achievements from GW2 into real life. It’s a game that you’ve had a lot of fun on, have probably made some friends and given you some goals in life (maybe because you don’t feel like you have many real life achievements?).

If you’re struggled to know what to do then go and take a break for a few weeks and try playing some other games or breaking yourself back into a proper hobby. You say you’re burnt out so you need to stop. If you were burnt out at work you’d take a holiday, just like you should take a break from Guild Wars.

I haven’t yet got to the stage where I’ve ran out of things to do as I’ve only been doing end-game content for a few months and haven’t even thought about legendaries (only just exploring the option of ascended gear) so I have no idea what I’ll think about this game in another 2-3 years time. However, I did play another MMO pretty solidly for 5 years before this and the only reason I kept playing for so long is because I kept taking breaks every few months and trying other things and then when I came back to the MMO it felt fresh again and I enjoyed doing things that in the past had turned into ‘grind-fests’.

Turn OFF your computer and pick up a book …

Or better yet, turn off your computer, pick up a phone, and call that cute little red-headed girl that lives down the street … trust me, you’ll feel much better.

Burnfall.9573:

Mighty Ice Arrow.9268:

It’s so sad for me, one GW1 player from the start to read this posts.

I started GW2 from beta, and I notice from the start the unbalancing between professions.

How can a company that was always worried with the balance between professions in GW1, produce this caricatures in GW2?

Mighty Ice Arrow, here is the truth

The Arena.Net you and us know are near extinction: only 1 remaining:The President of Arena.net.

There are so many different stories of how the old Arena.Net members left but what is important is this: the Arena.net we have here. apposes all rules and sacrifices of their Forefathers Arena.Net.

You are correct, Arena.Net was Passionate about Rules, implimenting a Fair, Just System, Balanced Design, Mechanics and especially Passionate and Attentive to their community needs and concerns.

The Arena.net we have are the complete opposite. Their Passion is implementing a Unfair, Unjust system which not only apposes all rules, design, mechanics and Balance of Arena.Net but intentionally ignoring their community concerns and attentiveness toward important critical matters..

One example: 2 Years later: same constant Crashes, System Freezes, Lags, hackers: the lists goes on….

seriously, nothing new here.

Another example is the warrior class, oh my! i don’t know where to start. All i will say is this, the Warrior class is the substitute of all the classes,

I said it right!!!

Warrior Class Is The Subsistent For All The Classes.

Oh i almost forgot this part: this class can stun you for 8-30+ seconds using just a hammer..

Yes,you heard it right! just for using a hammer: you will be instantly near perma stun lock and it’s game over.

You already see what’s wrong this picture: no need to go on.

Yet another example, i bring you the Elementalist class: no need for a Guardian class: this class have it all. Talk about it, if you do not see this as problometic, try their 2 single shotted bursts with instant death aoe’s.

Oh! did you know they were given a Invincibility, Invulnerability Mechanic called Diamond Skin?

Yes that’s right! it makes them invincible, Invulnerable to everything.

A Invincibility, Invulnerability class mechanic in Guild Wars 2?

No way!!

Yes way!

Lastly, is the thief class; 2 years later, we the community implored to Arena.net to balance/redesign and redo this class due to their unfair, unjust advantage among the classes but once again, Arena.net looked the other way.

In return, we the community have lost yet still losing, more, many and many great wonderful players and guilds due to this.

Forget about learning and experiencing, it’s all about the easy way out.

But don’t call that cheating or abuse or else you will get Punished: Infracted, Banned

So there…

That’s the cross we the community must carry, for wanting a Fair, Just System and for asking for better communication with Arena.net.

In Remembrance to our Forefather, Godspeed

Guild Wars
(Arena.Net)

Burnfall baby, you got to slow down a bit.

Your current rant listed Warriors, Elementlists and Thieves as being OP … LOL

Dude, at this rate you will have all 7 classes other than your own (Ranger) listed within a few short weeks.

Slow down dude, and keep it aimed at Thieves only …. that’s your specialty QQ.

Burnfall.9573:

This is the only mmo in the mmo market where this is allowed.

Even upcoming and future mmo’s Does Not and Will Not incorporate this Tyrannic and Unjust system.

So………

what is Guild Wars 2 Justification for incorporating it?

Ahahahahahaha — You Go Burnfall baby !

Burnfall says, “Tyrannic and Unjust system” !!!

I Love it man, it almost sounds as if you were talking about something important; instead of it just being that you’re upset because you don’t play cartoon video games very well .

Keep them coming Burn baby !

For Justice, Balance and Fairness !!! (rofl)

Thanks Mogar.

I main an Engi, so trust me, my ability to disengage and/or escape from fights is very limited compared to other classes. And as a dedicated solo/small group roamer, I can assure you that a great number of my “1v1s” end in the other player disengaging. To which I say, SO WHAT – because it is absolutely none of my business how others choose to play. But more importantly, it would be beyond ridiculous and childish for me to pronounce a person “a coward” due to how they play in a cartoon video game. That sort of E- P – eening is for overweight virgins with too much gaming time, and not enough study time.

But it is, what it is …

Be careful what you ask for (or complain about) folks, because you just might get it.

What I mean is that although there are many possible solutions to the entire server “coverage/population” issues in WvW, in all likelihood Anet will eventually choose the simplest and cheapest solution. And the cheapest and simplest solution would be: Green vs Blue vs Red, with a bunch of modifiers thrown in to increase the chance of being with your guild or people on your friends list. And to be honest, despite their recent declarations about understanding the community importance of maintaining server identity in WvW, I think B v R v G is the road they intend to go down anyway, just not right now.

I just adore these cartoon video game “gladiators” that always fight to the end, never flee and die “honorably”. ROFL

Trust me, it’s a load of crap.

Basically what you have are some classes that cannot as easily disengage and escape from a fight than other classes. This does not make these classes bad, as they may have many other very strong abilities that greatly outshine other classes in different game modes. However, if the player of these classes likes to solo roam in WvW, but is also one of these thin-skinned tantrum throwing types that demand that the world adjusts to their gameplay style, and everyone else be dammed – then you get these whiney QQ posts in the forums. And believe me, 9 out 10 of all these please nerf Thieves and Warriors thread starters could give a rats-behind about “balance”, the real issue is their wounded adolescent E-pride.

The bottom line is that WvW is an open PvP field that already has its rules of what you can, and cannot do. And sorry, but neither you nor I get to “invent” rules by which others must “behave/play” in WvW, no matter how many frustrated tantrums you throw when things don’t go your way. But you can at least take solace in one thing, you are not alone – because if you go visit the WvW forums of nearly every single MMO, you will notice the exact same whine/QQ tantrums being thrown as the ones on our forums. And the tantrums are being thrown by the exact same type of player: the terri-bad solo roamer that adores 1v1s, but unfortunately, they really suck at it, so they scream and whine for nerfs and game mechanics changes in hopes that mommy and daddy Anet will punishes their “bullies”.

Burnfall.9573:

Valid post Op.

I had a interesting experience in wvw yesterday, here goes…

I didn’t know i was being chased by an enemy thief until i was 2 shotted down by 13k heartseeker+13k backstab.

As always, i surrendered my body: without putting up a fight and waited for my death: seriously, what’s the point of trying once they go into stealth?

Than the enemy female thief proceeded to stand on top of my body and laughed, mocked me.

10 seconds remaining seconds left before the the shadows of death embrace me; the enemy thief chatted with me and told me how i was brave and humble. She permitted me to regain my health, so i did with caution.

Once i regain health: i hid my pet: in sign of non-aggressiveness and was left in shock.

I thanked the enemy female thief for giving me a 2nd chance, she smiled and teleported away.

We continued to chat and discussed how ridiculous stealth and the stealth downing system is, including many other things.

She than encourage me to join her server and her guild with one exception; “delete ranger class (laughs) and play thief class” .

She said if i consider, she and her guild of 2,000 members, will train me to be a Killer Assassin thief.

So there..

Even an enemy thief player sees something wrong with this ub-fair, un-just and un-balanced mechanic and class (why not?).

How is this called “Balance”?

How is this not a Problem?

It give UnFair advantage to Stealth class/s while Punishing Non-Stealth Classes ,

Eliminated this mechanic once and for the sake of the Gods: rework/redesign the broken thief class

" It’s a new day, Yesterday’s failure is redeemed at the sunrise”

Redeem The Thief Class!!

once and for all!

Burnfall !!!

That was a wonderful piece of fiction!

Of course I know its loosely based on the truth, especially the part when you get downed easily and die. But the rest was superb. The brave soldier not putting up a fight to prove a point, loved that part. And the self-effacing Thief damsel that saves you and agrees with your code and suggested you should delete your Ranger, that part brought a tear to my eye. Overall a wonderful piece of tragic-fiction; I mean it was outstanding, really.

Bravo sir !

Poor Burnfall, the dearheart.

If only he could learn to kill thieves, then all would be well.

ROFL

And never mind me Burnfall baby; you just keep on giving these OP Thieves hell in these whiney QQ threads. Because I love your tragic posts!

Burnfall = For Justice and Fairness and Balance !!!

Didn’t you hear the news? A noob was killed in WvW by a stealthThief, so Improving the Thief is NOT allowed in any way – and forever more.

;-)

PS: You have some interesting thoughts, but you would be FAR better served introducing them one at a time (so it doesn’t look like a total class remake) and posting them in the Professions forums instead of here.

Oh god, say it isn’t so – ROFL — an Engineer (an Engineer for Christ’s sake!) that feels his class needs to have a class specific counter to thief stealth!

aahahahahahahahaha

Thanks dude, that was really funny, great joke.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Ision.3207:

… killing the oh-so-OP Thieves with my Ranger! — LOL

Funny isn’t eet? Ranger using Sword/Torch + LB is a hard counter to Thieves. You can’t backstab them without getting burned.

;-)

It’s hilarious really, and almost as funny as all this nonsense about thieves being OP. But if you really want to see some thieves squirm in agony, roll an Engi dude. Trust me, once you get the right build and rotations, you can lay some serious hurt down on the so-called, “alpha predators” of WvW.

ReesesPBC.4603:

If this is true to assume about the mergers, I really hope this comes AFTER they do something about the class voted for most needed help and changes: Ranger.

Well I agree with you that the Ranger class could use a few more tweaks and improvements (especially to pet resistance to AoE damage), but overall, I think they are in a good place right now. I used to main a Ranger ( I now main an engi), but still play the toon frequently, and I’ve never been more satisfied with the class as I am right now.

And ironically, given the topic of this thread, I have recently had a great deal of fun solo roaming in WvW and killing the oh-so-OP Thieves with my Ranger! — LOL

Swagger.1459:

I believe these thread mergers are a sign of some big changes to come for the thief profession.

You could be right, and I hope so; because Thieves really could use some attention to some of their weaker skills and trait choices.

But it may just be the forum moderators tidying up the threads. Because you have a few spam posters that either create one Thief QQ thread after another, or keep dying threads that normally would vanish on their own going with long-winded and silly posts whining for more nerfs to thief skills.

Okay, look, some of you folks just have to get past it – Stealth classes have been, are now, and always will be despised by a large percentage of the MMO player base. And, no, NO – it’s not simply the outcry of “noobs” that need to L2p. Ultimately it boils down to basic human psychology. Because despite the fact that we know on an intellectual level that in MMO wars there are no rules by which to win, we still create a PERCIEVED (not actual) image of what is acceptable, and not, during a fight. And stealth breaks all those self-created perceptions by allowing the stealth-class to be able to pick his fights and easily disengage when losing. And it matters not that there are numerous counters, it matters not that the stealth class in itself may be far weaker as a class than his opponents class; the immediate and obvious reaction will be one of frustration. And frustration often breeds rage (especially among adolescents and young adults). Thus the endless QQ and endless rage-filled posts on every MMO forum in the history of the genre that includes stealth classes.

Yes, I realize that there is nothing particularly OP about the Thief class in Gw2. And yes, I realize that the class has as many inherent limitations as it has strengths. But a low-skilled Zerg-Blob player stomped 3 straight times in WvW while trying to get back to the blob from a waypoint, he DOES NOT CARE about any of that. He’s mad as hell and wants to vent; so often times he comes to the forums to do so. So they will rant that thieves are “OP” or “nerf thieves!” because they are unable to ambush/disengage as well as thieves (they won’t admit this, instead they say they want people to fight “fair” and not be “cowards”, but that’s all BS). And never mind that the stealth ability, the ability to disengage and frustrate your opponent is as central to the class design as the ability to buff oneself and take huge damage by other classes, or the ability to exercise high mobility and inflict enormous AOE damage by some classes, or the …ect … it does not matter. You see, because these other classes central class strengths are for the most part apparently “straight forward”, rightly or wrongly, its viewed as being “fairer”. But stealth is not an obvious and immediately recognizable mechanic, and its biggest sin is that it forces players to adjust whether they want to or not – thus the rage.

So at the end of the day, while it really is nothing more than a L2P issue in dealing with Thieves, that fact will not change/stop the endless QQ and rage. Because those unwilling, unable or incapable of making the adjustment to this particularly frustrating mechanic don’t want to hear it. And when they fight another class “head up” so to speak, they don’t feel the same level of anger when they lose or if they are winning and the other class fled. The different reaction lies in the element of the “sudden appearance, and sudden disappearance” of stealth opponents, because it has that eerie unknowable quality. The fact that no one should be able to run around battle-field (which WvW tries to mimic) alone without being on edge (and potentially frustrated) by the sudden appearance and/or disappearance of an enemy specifically designed to make that hazardous should be of no surprise whatsoever; and yet, it is, and always will be.

All that said, whether people want to admit it or not, the addition of this “eerie unknowable quality” adds enormous depth and fun (and yes, frustrated raging keyboard smacking teens add to part of that fun) to WvW encounters and roaming for EVERY CLASS, and it also adds a much needed added layer of complexity to the MMO WvW/PvP experience. And of course Game companies know this, which is why at least one stealth class is a staple of most games. But this won’t stop the rage or envy, and both those responses are not only to be expected, but understandable.

Okay, look, some of you folks just have to get past it – Stealth classes have been, are now, and always will be despised by a large percentage of the MMO player base. And, no, NO – it’s not simply the outcry of “noobs” that need to L2p. Ultimately it boils down to basic human psychology. Because despite the fact that we know on an intellectual level that in MMO wars there are no rules by which to win, we still create a PERCIEVED (not actual) image of what is acceptable, and not, during a fight. And stealth breaks all those self-created perceptions by allowing the stealth-class to be able to pick his fights and easily disengage when losing. And it matters not that there are numerous counters, it matters not that the stealth class in itself may be far weaker as a class than his opponents class; the immediate and obvious reaction will be one of frustration. And frustration often breeds rage (especially among adolescents and young adults). Thus the endless QQ and endless rage-filled posts on every MMO forum in the history of the genre that includes stealth classes.

Yes, I realize that there is nothing particularly OP about the Thief class in Gw2. And yes, I realize that the class has as many inherent limitations as it has strengths. But a Zerg-Blob player stomped 3 straight times in WvW while trying to get back to the blob from a waypoint, he DOES NOT CARE about any of that. He’s mad as hell and wants to vent; so often times he comes to the forums to do so. So they will rant that thieves are “OP” or “nerf thieves!” because they are unable to ambush/disengage as well as thieves (they won’t admit this, instead they say they want people to fight “fair” and not be “cowards”, but that’s all BS). And never mind that the stealth ability, the ability to disengage and frustrate your opponent is as central to the class design as the ability to buff oneself and take huge damage by other classes, or the ability to exercise high mobility and inflict enormous AOE damage by some classes, or the …ect … it does not matter. You see, because these other classes central class strengths are for the most part apparently “straight forward”, rightly or wrongly, its viewed as being “fairer”. But stealth is not an obvious and immediately recognizable mechanic, and its biggest sin is that it forces players to adjust whether they want to or not – thus the rage.

So at the end of the day, while it really is nothing more than a L2P issue in dealing with Thieves, that fact will not change/stop the endless QQ and rage. Because those unwilling, unable or incapable of making the adjustment to this particularly frustrating mechanic don’t want to hear it. And when they fight another class “head up” so to speak, they don’t feel the same level of anger when they lose or if they are winning and the other class fled. The different reaction lies in the element of the “sudden appearance, and sudden disappearance” of stealth opponents, because it has that eerie unknowable quality. The fact that no one should be able to run around battle-field (which WvW tries to mimic) alone without being on edge (and potentially frustrated) by the sudden appearance and/or disappearance of an enemy specifically designed to make that hazardous should be of no surprise whatsoever; and yet, it is, and always will be.

All that said, whether people want to admit it or not, the addition of this “eerie unknowable quality” adds enormous depth and fun to WvW encounters and roaming for EVERY CLASS, and it also adds a much needed added layer of complexity to the MMO WvW/PvP experience. And of course Game companies know this, which is why at least one stealth class is a staple of most games. But this won’t stop the rage or envy, and both those responses are not only to be expected, but understandable.

Jinxer.8745:

TY i got back into my acc and it only took you 30 mins to reply to me
that was really fast so ty ^^
ty tadeo and andonis

+1

I’ll add my voice to this as well. I’ve been a harsh critic of some aspects of this game, and most especially of certain decisions made that were a complete turnaround from the game that was marketed for years. That said, this is my 4th MMO, and I’ve never dealt with a better or more responsive customer support group than the one Anet has.

Whining about stealth is an MMO forum staple. And it is for the same so-called reasons: “fairness” – “balance” blah blah. No matter the game, WoW, Lotro ect … the outcry against stealth is always there. And in those games, just as with this one, 95% of the time it’s simply a L2P issue by poor to average WvW players who want to solo-roam, but are just not very good at it, no more and no less.

And trying to argue reasonably to a guy that regularly gets stomped in WvW roaming is a dead-end; he’s just furious that his ability to facetank NPCs in PvE does not work on real live people. What he wants is a “short cut” to having to play better, and that short cut is ALWAYS the same two whines, however it may be disguised: 1. spam post and shout that your class does not have enough DPS, and 2. spam post and shout that the other guys class needs a nerf.

The reason stealth classes bear the brunt of the spam posting QQ demanding the other guy needs nerfs is because of the personal nature of it … it’s one thing for a player to die in a zerg blob to another zerg blob … that death is abstract in a sense. But when he tries to test his poor skills vs a single opponent that will dance on his corpse after exposing that he needs to l2p a bit more … it’s personal, and thus you see the emotionally wrought QQ in the forums.

Guys (and especially thieves) you just need to learn to take these type of threads for what they are.

EotM is a wonderful PvE farming map … I agree.

Hopefully Anet will do as good a job when they finally create a new non-farming Non-PvE map for WvW/PvP .

Dusty Moon.4382:

I think there are better uses of A.Net’s resources than this – … .

On the contrary, I think there are no better use of a companies resources than to create a product that can both generate more revenue for the company, and please a great number of their customers.

Silence players by vote?

Really?

Do you honestly want the dozen or so 15-year old players from the “Leet and Pro Awesomesauce Guild” to have the ability to vote to silence other people?

style.6173:

Lord Kuru.3685:

PvP-wise, EoTM is an epic failure. I predict Anet will continues pushing in that direction anyway for WvW.

We need to stop referring to EotM as a WvW map. It is a PvE karma train map where you can kill players.

Style, spot on correct. +1

I sure hope there are some NON-trenchcoat type armors for the medium armor classes. Would love to see some skirts and pants options added for the medium armor folks.

People can just never stop complaining.

;-)

Stress.2436:

Guys you are never satisfied omg wardrobe is beautiful and i support Transmutation Charges to be in gemstore you can chose to support arena with some money or convert gold to gems is very easy to make gold PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD STOP
(im sitting on 4k gold and 2 legends im not flliping TP or buy gems is very easy to make gold just sayin)

The new dye system is great too they make dyes a little harder to have what is wrong in that the dye will be account bound so is worth the effort .
They are trying to make you and you and you and everyone that was complaing for 1 year for now happy i was complaing too about other stuff about the game that are not fixed but im happy that they are working on something else much more nicer

THEY ARE TRYING SHOW SOME SUPPORT

(im sorry for my english – arena psss if you can put some optimization patches too that will be great kisses)

Stress, please stop creating threads in order to complain about players that complain. Firstly, the topic is such that all it accomplishes is back-and-forth sarcasms and barbs. And secondly, it is the very height of presumption to take on the role of “self-appointed” forum moderator and scold folks for expressing their feelings.

Why I AM going to buy stuff from the Gem Store.

You see, when I play a cartoon video game, I try to never-ever lose sight of the fact that “playing” is exactly what I am doing, not “working”. This is not to say that, when playing, I do not give it my very best effort and all. But it is only to say that I make an effort to remember that the cartoon virtual world I’m having fun in should never be approached as if it were something more than this. What’s more, I also never ever measure what I accomplish in this cartoon game against what “other people” might think or judge, but solely on what I personally value and enjoy. So I could give a rats-behind if a hundred people have “The Great Sword of Awesomesauce”, if I like it, I’ll have it too.

In real life, I’ve tossed away 10 or 20 dollars on numerous occasions on stuff that can only be labeled as frivolous or unimportant. Obviously I don’t make that a habit, but from time to time I indulge myself with a bit of nonsense that appeals to me. This being the case in my real world, most certainly it will also be the case in this cartoon virtual world. Besides, what better place to toss away a SMALL bit of money on a bit of fun and frivolity, than in a game … remember I said “game”, as in the definition, Game: an activity engaged in for diversion or amusement (from Webster’s dictionary).

Last but not least, I also try hard (not always successfully) to mind my own dang business, and not that of others. As it is without doubt absolutely none of my business what others do, or do not do with their money. Nor do I begrudge people who can afford to buy things that I cannot, since that too is none of my business. So just as long as the game company lives up to its promises (or mostly does – lol) so that the amusement I now own (Gw2) is the one they advertised in order to get me to buy it, then I’m all good.

But that’s just me, and my approach … to each his own …

Good lord, so that same kittened exploit is not being addressed? Too bad.

And ya gotta love the folks that defend it. They point to other exploits or poor dungeon mechanics and they say, “See these things are also kittened up, so we need to have this exploit and poor mechanic as well” … ROFL …

What I really hate about it though, is that I refuse to use the exploit … and trust me, when not running dungeons with my guildies, but pugging, that really goes over well with the transplanted WoW teenager demographic of Gw2! You can expect to be kicked or mocked for being the “noob” by players that don’t know their head from their ………….. hello!

insanemaniac.2456:

look a complaint about a ridiculous gamebreaking bug getting fixed

Agreed. +1

Its past time they stopped the FGS against the wall nonsense.

Taushullu.6180:

3/5

We got 3 nice traits (WS, NM, BM) and 2 bad traits:

• Read the Wind – This trait is simply to fix longbow’s inability to hit targets at longer ranges. It’s not a worthless trait (I want my arrows to hit after all) but surely not GM tier trait in itself.
• Strider’s Defense – No matter how effective this trait might be, 15% proc chance is just pure RNG. Because of that I’ll never be choosing this trait, ever.

Suggestion for RtW:

Show Spoiler

hide spoiler

They could merge Eagle Eye with Read the Wind and have it include short bow as well. New GM trait:

• Read the Wind – Increases short bow, longbow and harpoon gun range and projectile velocity. (300 units / 100%)

This is because the accuracy problems really start to bother after you’ve taken Eagle Eye. Well ok, it’s bothersome even at smaller ranges I admit but at 1500 range it becomes really obvious. In any case, I think these two traits would go nicely together. Anet has also mentioned that if short bow would ever get it’s 1200 unit range back it would be with a GM trait.

Taush, outstanding post, and a great suggestion. Bravo.

+1

I don’t have a problem with the addition of this trait, Aquatic Benevolence, and I can see many situations/builds where it would be useful.

However (there’s always a “however” – lol) … however …

When it comes to Ele, one small fear of mine has always been that of being pigeonholed into the “healing/support” role that I SOooo despise. On it’s own, I don’t think this new trait does that, but – a tweak here, another tweak there – and .. viola! … you now have a sorta-kinda-of soft “Healer” class … and woe be unto you if you join the dungeon party in any other build but that one … I guess my concern is the slippery-slope argument … hopefully I am wrong, and most likely, I am.

However, if I’m right … on the day when I notice that in the dungeon LFG tool, “4 of 5, need healer specked Ele” has become commonplace … my dungeon days with Ele will be completely OVER. Now I realize that as of right now, with how the dungeons/fractals are, there is no such danger, but a dungeon tweak here, a dungeon tweak there and ………………………………..

Nike.2631:

Actually, the Grandmaster Trait is properly structured so that it adjusts a base value — the weapon itself could see improvements to damage and projectiles speed that benefits ALL longbow users, with the trait simply improving things for specialists.

Stand by on the panic. Its part of a larger picture.

My God I hope you’re right.

Because if not, this trait will be utter garbage except in the most niche of WvW builds.

Now I’m not one to post exaggerated “rangers sux and are totally broken” nonsense. But if this is indeed the GM LB “love” they intend, without any other adjustments, it’s total fail. Now if this GM trait coincides with a merging of piercing arrows and eagle eye, or they forgot to add the snippet that it also adds 150 power, or …. then okay, maybe it’s worth it.

So, like you said, I’ll stand by on the panic … for now ;-)

Bran.7425:

Well the CDI is over. Was it a success or failure? We’ll have to wait, however I do not think they will be doing another profession-focused one in the near future.

All I can draw from this is the ranger community is probably one of the most divided of the profession.

Nah, not divided really.

I’ve never played an mmo were there was not a small vocal group calling for at least one class to be totally redesigned to suit their specific play-style, and everyone else be kittened. In this case it’s the sniper/archers wanna-bes’ that spam posted endlessly. It’s perfectly normal. And the spam posting by the same 7 or 8 folks, thinking that restating the same point a dozen times with ever increasing emotion will work, this is to be expected as well. And the exaggerated, “we are totally broken, Anet hates/ignores us”, this too is no surprise. Just another typical week in a cartoon video game forums – lol.

That said, the 3 most important points in regards to pets were driven home. So I expect to see a reasonable effort made for pets to handle AOE better in dungeons and zerg-balls. Also, a change or two to increase hit chance by pets and improved f2 responsiveness.

And there were some excellent suggestions made in regards to Longbows, Swords and Axes as well. I expect to see a few changes here as well. And perhaps a few traits redesigned to fit the weapon changes.

When the devs meet, they will sort out the reasonable and intelligent suggestions, and trash-can the whines and exaggerated nonsense. Overall it will result in some positive changes. Of course there will be no pleasing the “pets sux, we need more dps, pets sux, we need more dps crowd” – but hey, those types are never happy unless they can one-shot someone in WvW from 1500.

phys.7689:

Sorry that anet is going to sacrifice ranger for marksman, i think the vocal minority is about to screw over 80% of the people who play ranger who play it because they have pets, or who have grown to like the class. I dont really believe the majority of people who play this class dont want a pet. But that seems to be what they are taking away from this.

Phys, don’t sweat it. I honestly don’t think the devs are going to re-invent the wheel because the same 7 or 8 people are spam posting this thread with hyperbolic nonsense. What I think you will see, is a legitimate attempt to address pet survivability issues in zerg-balls and dungeons, and attempts made to increase their hit chance.

please edit the thread title to, “Show off your style in trench-coat armor!”

;-)

Yes, I know that they’re not all trench coats …. but almost all – lol

Johnsonade, firstly, let me thank you for your polite and mature response to my post. Despite my incorrect assumption that you were looking for a meat/shield — aggro/magnet (thus I assumed inexperience) you did not reply like a WoW teenager whose adolescent pride has been injured. My mistake, I stand corrected.

Have you tried a bomber build; the classic heavy strafing right/left while spamming bombs with a dash of Rifle skills when appropriate? While I found it boring as hell, it was quite effective in open world PvE against the tougher high level Vets. I can’t really offer specific advice on Southsun and Karkas because my PvE experience now is limited to the absolute bare minimum I can get away with (the mindless grind for ascended gear), and for the most part I live in WvW.

And btw, you need to base your opinions on your own individual understanding, standards, play-style and choices – and nothing else. And from your tone, it appears you’re already doing that. Bravo.

I have both an 80 Ranger and 80 Engi (and 2 other classes), and they both do wonderfully well in WvW solo and and small group roaming – but I must admit that I don’t go anywhere near the mindless zerg-balls. As to easy-mode Rangers, it’s yes and no … the meat/shield — aggro/magnet aspect of their pets make them seem that way quite often in PvE, but trust me, you’ll get plenty of milage out of your Engi (especially in WvW). And the simple truth is, some classes are simply better than others in certain venues of the game or specific encounters. And I’m glad it’s that way, because I enjoy the variety. When it’s all said and done, sometimes its not the class: it’s us, the player. Sometimes we simply “click” better with one class over another.

The first mistake you made in your post was that you praised Ranger play and mechanics… just so you know, that is a giant NO NO … when it comes to Rangers, the ONLY thing you are allowed to say is, “pets sux, rangers need more dps” (jk) ;-)

Engineers are a very nuanced class, and they require greater micro and twitch reflexes than many other classes. Perhaps what you are running into is simply the steeper learning curve of the class. Also, Engi turrets are either really good or really-really bad, depending on the encounter and relative aoe dps output of your enemy. I would strongly recommend that you find a non-turret alternative for your engineer for most of your gameplay. I am NOT saying never to play with turrets or that they “sux totally”, but they will not offer the same level of aggro-magnet/meat-shield that tanky Ranger pets do … and it appears to me that that is what you are looking for. Consider a Grenade build or Bomber build, and I think your Engineer experience will be much better overall. Over time you will learn when its best to go with turrets for a change of pace.

Allie Murdock.8152:

Aidenwolf.5964:

Allie Murdock.8152:

Also, you guys can’t see this due to the limitations of formatting on our forums, but a lot of these points were made by many of you guys. As such, they are much more emphasized in the email threads and discussions we have internally.

First, thank you for your summary. What I think got missed in the pile was the idea that pet damage should be rebalanced so that they no longer draw 30% of our damage from us in the first place. All other classes core mechanics add to base damage where as rangers loose almost a third of our player damage in order to have an AI run around with us. If our pets hit every time and are never dead, we just get to 100% base damage of every other class capping us at 100% a warrior hits 115% with his/her core mechanic.

This does not take into account the loss of gear stats on the pet which is significant.

I’m not saying this isn’t possible, but I want you to understand exactly what that suggestion means. It would mean completely rebalancing the Ranger.

The Ranger is designed to have a pet. If the pet was taken away or didn’t do damage, then it wouldn’t be a Ranger anymore. Does that make sense?

The only reason Rangers lose damage is because the AI is not currently what it ought to be. That doesn’t necessarily mean that we should completely redesign the Ranger and get rid of the pet.

Think of it this way: You’re building a house and a 2×4 breaks while you’re trying to screw it in to something. Do you scrap the house and completely rebuild it because that one piece broke, or do you grab a new 2×4 and use that instead? Which do you think would be more efficient?

What I’ve been seeing a lot of is that you guys don’t necessarily dislike pets. What you dislike is how they act and how they are controlled. It seems to me that these are feelings that have been built up over time, and have culminated into “pets have to go” because you guys haven’t seen the improvements that should be made to pets to make them desirable. I certainly don’t blame you for getting to this point, but I do want to know the core of the problem before we start talking about rebalancing an entire class.

Oh NO, oh God Allie …. while I agree with you wholly…. I wish you hadn’t of posted that, because the thread had just recovered a bit from the “pet is 100% broken useless crowd”, and was becoming more constructive. Your post will simply launch the same set of folks into their endless mantra of “pets sux, we need more dps, pets sux, we need more dps, pets sux, we need more dps ….”

;-)

Anyway thanks for your excellent post. And good luck to you … you’re going to need it!

Arghore.8340:

REQUEST to everyone in the CDI

hopefully I can manage to do this without upsetting anyone to much
While I fully understand that people suggest things for their favourite build and weapon setup. And while I understand even more why people would suggest things they themselves have experienced as flawed or broken or just under par. I would love to press everybody on their heart to keep it at that, and not start suggesting HUGE changes to things they don’t use themselves.

Why not? Because then I wouldn’t have to point this out.

1. Axe: I dont think, that the axe (mainhand) should be a power weapon, with bleed on S2 and chill on S3, it would be a great melee/shortrange condi weapon, which the ranger has no access to. Reduce damage of S1 and add a bleed would be the better solution.

And yes that wasn’t really meant as serious, (and it was ‘whyyou’, because it mostly stresses my point also see ps. further down). Because from my point of view, as an Axe user pretty much since day 1, the shortbow is the clear medium range ‘condition meta’ skirmish weapon. And the Axe is just fine as a medium range crit.damage alternative. There is no reason for two medium ranged condition weapons, so why even suggest that? If you want more conditions on your axe use sharpening stone by all means…

Have you ever played Axes? Apart from the flat damage on them they are largely fine.
Could they be flavoured up? sure, the ‘big hit on first and then lesser damage on multiple others was ok with me. Or walking while channelling #5. Even changing that annoying theme breaking wintersbite into something else like a ’in/out’ to facilitate splitblade, I could live with…

But turning it into a copy of the Shortbow, with just different stuff on it, so you can integrate the Axe into your condi.build and benefit from swaps without changing your playstyle, and totally neglecting the possible uses for the Axe to people that actually USE them… well I personally find that somewhat saddening. You don’t see me suggesting to turn the shortbow into a powerbased crit.weapon, just because I don’t see myself using the SB in it’s current setup.

ps. Just to point out to Whyme that I am not targeting him specifically with this
I have seen more people suggest this and I scares me, especially if Anet goes by numbers. And I feel like none of these people actually play Axes, which makes me wonder, if you don’t have experience with them how can you suggest such changes? Wouldn’kitten by all means, be better to leave these suggestions to the Axe users instead?

Agreed, +1

(good post)

Axes as a group (mainhand and offhand together) are not condition weapons or power weapons, they are hybrids. And as such, they should not be pushed too far in either direction, but remain within the niche intended. That said, I think Axe 1 could use a small power increase to its direct damage.

Just as we are suggesting ways to improve sword and longbow, the dual Axe build should get a bit of love too (besides, I think dual axes, right after the archer/swordsman builds, are one of the iconic Ranger builds/looks that a lot of people desire).

Flytrap.8075:

Are there any plans to give Ranger a CC/utility weapon so that we can actually support groups that we play with (WvW zergs immediately come to mind)? We are missing a weapon that provides AoE and support functionality and it’s a glaring design flaw.

I’d love to see Rangers be allowed to use staffs, seeing as we have a trait line that is literally called Nature Magic and ANet has not really tapped into the Druid role.

Ision.3207:

Thanks, as I’m sure your compliment was given in an honest and mature spirit.

I was a hardcore WoW and Lotro WvW soloer/small group roamer for years. So I came to Gw2 to get away from having to grind/PvE for max stat gear over and over gain … and then … LOL

;-)

However, I despise the WvW zergball though, it reminds me so much of the mindless no-skill PvE zerg play. But to each his own, and everyone should most certainly be able play as they want.

I was being completely genuine; it bothers me that ANet has deviated from a lot of GW2’s founding principles and I’m always happy to see that other players feel the same way.

As to your comment about zergball, I agree with you for the most part. I, like you, prefer roaming and havoc groups, but I think a good zerg-busting session every now and then can be a lot of fun. Nevertheless, I personally think that all professions should be 100% viable in every aspect of the game, so I’d love to see Ranger gain some increased capabilities in large-scale WvW since they are easily the most unwanted class.

Well, well … will wonders never cease!

I like and agree with ALL of your above comments … from the Druidic Staff suggestion for Rangers, to your comments about Anet deviating away from Horizontal progression … as well as how zergballs can be fun at times (not for me, but to each his own) ,,,

Best of luck to you, along with a sincere internet handshake :-)

Take care.

Flytrap.8075:

Ision.3207:

snip

I just wanted to let you know what I adore your signature.

Thanks, as I’m sure your compliment was given in an honest and mature spirit.

I was a hardcore WoW and Lotro WvW soloer/small group roamer for years. So I came to Gw2 to get away from having to grind/PvE for max stat gear over and over gain … and then … LOL

;-)

However, I despise the WvW zergball though, it reminds me so much of the mindless no-skill PvE zerg play. But to each his own, and everyone should most certainly be able play as they want.