Guild Wars 2

Anet buffed the engineers with no nerf-strings attached? What black magic is this? Is this a sign of the end times? Is the zombie apocalypse upon us?

Thorin: Since when do Dev Posts venture this far south?

Gandalf: Oh, not for an Age. Not since a darker power ruled these lands.

—The Hobbit

SoulstitchMMO.1396:

Mictla.3058:

Soo, I should feel bad about rolling an engineer?

Absolutely not. Just realize it’s not a faceroll profession. There is a huge difference between an average engineer, and an amazing engineer.

There are many classes that aren’t “faceroll” professions. Elementalists and mesmers come to mind. According to Anet, elementalists are much more versatile then we are. And they do more damage. And they can have comparable survivabillity to our best bunker builds. And they get to keep their secondary weapon set, which in turn gives them, effectively, 4 kits per weapon slot.

So every elementalist, for your reference, effectively has 8 kits available to them in addition to ALL of their utility skills in ANY build. Moreover, their kits are customizable by weapon selection. There are 5 possible weapon combinations for the elementalist. So when making their build, the elementalist gets its choice of 2 out of 5 sets of 4 kits. So, they get to choose 8 kits out of a possible 20.

And they get to keep their utility skills. And the skills from those “kits” are generally better (many of our kits have nerfed versions of ele skills).

It is really difficult to overstate how much flexibility and offensive/defensive power we give up by having only 1 weapon slot. A 1 Kit engineer has fewer skills, overall, than say a mesmer. Moreover, the mesmer skills are generally much more powerful and/or have much more utillity than most engineer builds.

In a game consisting of nothing but hybrid classes, we are the only class that pays hybrid tax. And we aren’t even the most versatile of the hybrids. Or the most powerful in offense or deffense Will a good engineer prevail over a mediocre ele? Sure, but a good player from profession x will always prevail over a mediocre player from profession y.

I’m gonna cross post this from another thread, as it is relevant here:

"

In a game where every class is a hybrid, it’s engineers who get slapped with the hybrid tax on their potential damage output, while elementalists get to be the ones labelled ‘king of versatility’.

Pretty much this. Seriously play another class for a bit. We get jipped out of a weapon slot and loose a utility for each kit we want to equip. Some will mention the toolbelt, but many classes get an equivalent bar, e.g. mesmers get shatters that have equal if not better offensive and defensive abilities.

And it isn’t just damage, it’s defense and utility as well. What we give up for kits is not worth it, not by a long shot."

I’m just sorry it took me so long to realize this.

Cosine.1786:

In a game where every class is a hybrid, it’s engineers who get slapped with the hybrid tax on their potential damage output, while elementalists get to be the ones labelled ‘king of versatility’.

Pretty much this. Seriously play another class for a bit. We get jipped out of a weapon slot and loose a utility for each kit we want to equip. Some will mention the toolbelt, but many classes get an equivalent bar, e.g. mesmers get shatters that have equal if not better offensive and defensive abilities.

And it isn’t just damage, it’s defense and utility as well. What we give up for kits is not worth it, not by a long shot.

Shivenis.3761:

Engineer – medium armor – best in close combat with rifle.
Warrior – heavy armor – best at long range with rifle.

It just makes no sense.

This. Engineer doesn’t have a rifle, engineer has a shotgun. Nothing wrong with this per se, you have to take it in context with other abilities and where other classes are with regards to this.

Agree with the op 100%. I’m sure most people don’t want to play “Robin”. But considering any time we get a build that comes remotely close to being able to pull off something other classes do by rolling their face over the key board, said build gets nerfed (and btw, this isn’t just about grenades, but juggernaut, mine field, p/p condition damage, smoke bomb, and a host of other things like having only 1 elite) its just not worth it anymore.

Personally, I’m re-rolling a mesmer. I’ll still use my engineer to bunker in spvp, and tankcat/static discharge in wvw, but honestly odds are bunker and tank cat will be “rebalanced” with the upcoming survivability changes mentioned in the logs, so yeah….

Wolfies.8152:

Casia.4281:

PotatoOverdose.6583:

Caldric.1685:

In the mean time I love my 1000+ crit with autoattack Ranger.

Auto-attack rifle engineer has had 1200-1400+ crit at 50-70% crit rate since before launch. And unlike your ranger, due to piercing, a single rifle shot can hit multiple foes. It’s posts like these that make me wonder if the people in this thread ever even tried a non-grenade build.

Have you seen the “rifle is poor damage”posts prior to patch? I was just sitting there scratching my head.
Engi rifle auto attack is like the #2 highest dps ability after grenades in the game..

With traits, arrows can pierce. Maybe you should try lvling a Ranger. Mr. Bad.

Ok, so you spend a trait on something I get for free. Grats Mr. Bad.

Travail.7390:

PotatoOverdose.6583:

Caldric.1685:

In the mean time I love my 1000+ crit with autoattack Ranger.

Auto-attack rifle engineer has had 1200-1400+ crit at 50-70% crit rate since before launch. And unlike your ranger, due to piercing, a single rifle shot can hit multiple foes. It’s posts like these that make me wonder if the people in this thread ever even tried a non-grenade build.

I’m pretty sure the Engi Rifle shoots slower than the Ranger’s short bow, though. Against single targets, or targets who are spread out, the Ranger should win out, I think. Plus, the Ranger applies automatic bleeds when beside or behind their target with their short bow #1.

You also need to factor in pet damage on top of whatever the Ranger is dealing.

-Travail.

And you need to factor in the huge static discharge burst from a proper rifle build. The initial post compared autoattack to autoattack. Apples to apples. Throwing in other abillites is comparing apples to oranges. For a curve ball you could also throw in the extra control rifle has innately. More oranges, yay.

My point was, and still stands, that Rifle 1 has always been a top notch attack, if built for it. This doesn’t excuse the gutting of grenade builds, which were not overpowered in any way, and converting direct damage to condition damage does precisely that — guts grenades.

Its not the end of the engineer class as some have pointed out, but it is inexcusable and unnecessary to gut a damage build that didn’t even come close to the damage of other classes.

MrSilver.5269:

So here I am speaking out in solidarity with my engineer grenade and elixir kit brethren.

First they N-erfed pistols,
and I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t using pistols.

Then they came for juggernaut,
and I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t using flamethrower.

Then they came for the grenades and elixir gun,
and I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t using them either.

Then they came for my build,
and there was no one left playing engineer to speak for me.

Honestly, this right here 100%. Every time I read the patch notes, the first think I do is go to the engineer subsection; hoping, praying that they didn’t nerf my build. When I think about it, it’s downright sad. No other class has been gutted so often since launch. Not a one. It’s a sad sad thing when every time a patch rolls around, your first thought is a silent prayer that the devs left you build alone. Not that they reduced our bug list (longer than every other classes’ by far), but that they just left us alone.

Flame Of The Titan.3649:

So I’ve got 1 person saying yes and another saying no.

Sorta hard to come to a point here

Play the class you like the most. It’s a game after all. No point in playing if you aren’t having fun.

There are viable engineer builds. There are fewer and fewer with every patch, but they exist. The main problem with leveling an engineer now is that due to the grenade nerf, it will be notably harder to level. Might want to consider using bomb kit instead.

So yeah, play the class you enjoy the most.

Imperatora.7654:

Terrahero.9358:

They do not actually play their professions adequatly to properly gauge balance.

[citation needed]

Every game company I’ve worked for had between 5 to 10 hours of mandatory play time every single week, while at the office. Not including the 10-20 you were expected to put in at home after a game went live.

so I call BS unless you know something for a fact.

Here’s one for you:

Toss elixir R was nerfed, going from a CD of 90 seconds to a cd of 120 seconds. This was done for pvp purposes and was a result of a complaint thread on the spvp forums.

Thing is, almost every single build out in pvp has inertial converter which resets the cooldown of all toolbelt skills which means you can use toss elixir R far more than evey 90 seconds, let alone 120 seconds. It was a blind and completely impotent nerf showing a complete ignorance of engineer mechanics.

That is one of the most obvious examples of a balance change that showed a complete lack of class know-how. I can provide more If you’d like, I just don’t want to spam the thread.

Caldric.1685:

In the mean time I love my 1000+ crit with autoattack Ranger.

Auto-attack rifle engineer has had 1200-1400+ crit at 50-70% crit rate since before launch. And unlike your ranger, due to piercing, a single rifle shot can hit multiple foes. It’s posts like these that make me wonder if the people in this thread ever even tried a non-grenade build.

I don’t think they hate engineers. There are some absolutely ridiculous sigil + rune combos for engineers atm. I’ll just leave it at that.

Kontrolle.3514:

PotatoOverdose.6583:

Good patch for tpvp/spvp. All of our relevant builds used in high end tpvp …..

Sadly almost no one likes to play sPvP.
If you still havnt recognized it, WvW is the center of the game.

Ok in wvw grenades were only ever good for PvWalling. They were/are garbage in the field. In the field you were always better off running a boon stacking build or static discharge builds.

Even ignoring other builds (might stacking, static discharge, tankcat, etc.), grenades are still very viable. You can easily apply 10+ stacks of bleeding in seconds. With +condition damage and might stacking, that’s a good chunk of damage and should serve you well when next you PvWall.

Raijinn.9065:

Many of the posts in this thread make me realize how many people have no clue about the real mechanics behind grenades. I’ve never even done wvw and grenades was still my bread and butter

Please elaborate on these “real” mechanics behind grenades unbeknownst to us mortals…I’m curious to what exactly you’re referring too.

Haven’t used grenadier builds in ages. Total garbage in spvp/tpvp, always have been. There we have bunker builds which are prevelant even at the highest levels of tpvp. Also we have a very good range of static discharge roaming builds.

In wvw, meh, grenadiers had their moment PvWalling, but honestly, it was PvWalling. If you want a fun build for wvw, look into this:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/The-TANKCAT-build-Prybar-some-faces/page/3#post1001239
or a might stacking condition build, or a static discharge build.

Cheers.

Good patch for tpvp/spvp. All of our relevant builds used in high end tpvp were untouched or buffed. Bunkers and static discharge builds were untouched. Might stacking condition builds got a significant buff.

PvWalling grenadier builds got nerfed, or rather…it does the same net damage as before, but you need to use condition damage instead of power. Oh well, boo hoo and all that.

Thank you for the effort. Unfortunately my experience is significantly worse than before. Ive had small engagements (5v5 or less) were hostiles were culled during the fight. Ive had warriors and guardians literally culled out of combat in front of me in certain fights after I fail to attack that specific target for a second or two. In these cases there were no “stealth” classes involved.

DreamOfACure.4382:

PotatoOverdose.6583:

And, fyi, grenades have been nerfed. Several times, in fact.

And yet it’s still the best kit for Engies, and is the main object of comparison when it comes to the Mortar’s range.

Hue.

Grenade range is very influential to the viability of Mortar.
Try learning about ‘seeing the bigger picture’ sometime. It helps so much~

Honestly, your last sentence is hugely ironic. You mention “the bigger picture” yet you completely ignore the fact that mortar does abysmal damage over a given interval compared to ALL ranged attacks (even post-buff scepter guardians). If grenades had 0 dps and 0 range, most grenadiers would switch to static discharge, alchemy, bunker, or “tankcat” builds and STILL not take mortar.

Consider the bigger picture. We have loads of non-grenade builds and NONE of them use mortar. Because mortar is worse than ALL of the ranged options from all of the classes in the game. Your straw-man argument, attacking grenades when the problem lies with mortar, is a total failure.

For your benefit, straw-man argument: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

DreamOfACure.4382:

Saying Mortar range needs to be increased is just another way of saying Grenades need to be nerfed.

Grenade range should be 900 at maximum, and even then they’d be able to hit up to 1050 with the blast radius.

---

But I do think Mortar could be improved as well. Range is nice, but I personally think it should deal more damage.

As an offensive elite skill, you should be motivated to use it over standard weapons/kit for DPS.

Grenades have nothing to do with mortar. If grenades had 0 range and 0 dps, people still wouldn’t use mortar because mortar is terrible. It dies in 2 hits and has terribly low damage compared to any ranged attacks from anyone (heck, i think post-buff guardian scepter does more damage over a given time interval). Its not only grenade engineers that don’t use mortar. No bomb kit builds use mortar, no static discharge builds use mortar, no alchemy builds use mortar, no engineer builds whatsoever make good use of mortar.

And, fyi, grenades have been nerfed. Several times, in fact.

Elixir X is extremely situational. And in those situations were it is viable, you also need quite a bit of luck with the rng to get the transform that fits the situation. This combined with the fact that one of the recent updates re-broke alchemy traits working with elixir x makes it fairly worthless.

Mortar has always been pretty bad. The damage is pretty terrible compared to anything, and the survivability of the mortar itself is abysmal. I think 2 random auto/aoe attacks will kill it tbh.

Mortar is unlikely to see a range buff simply because it looks like all classes were designed with a hard range cap of 1500 (or less).

aydenunited.5729:

[snip]

1) Mesmer, Guardian (in no order)
2) Engineer, Necro, Elementalist (in no order)
3) Thief
4) Warrior, Ranger

[snip]

I agree with this post, for the most part. I’d separate guardians and mesmers by a tier like so:
1) Guardian
2) Mesmer
3) Engineer, Necro, Elementalist (in no order)
4) Thief
5) Warrior, Ranger (no order)

The reason being is that mesmers (although they do have a great many offensive options) are pretty easy to kill as long as you can spot the real one quickly (which comes naturally with experience) and you are very tank oriented or very burst oriented. Once you get past the illusions, mesmers have pretty kitteny defensive options. Guardians, on the other hand can have insane defense. Although honestly, engi, necro, and ele bunkers can actually kill stuff. Guardians can’t so don’t know If I’d call guards overpowered.

Most of the claims that engineers suck come from people that run glass cannon/heavy dps specs that tend to ignore the awesome defensive, control, and support options that engineers offer. Glass cannons tend to suck in high level tPvP, glass canons are pretty bad in high end pve (think level 15+ fotm), and glass cannons die a lot in WvW (unless you’re out-zerging the enemy really hard). So naturally, a lot of players come and post that because their glass cannon build died, engineers need a rework (the same is true of the ele, necro forums as well).

Nymphetamine.2103:

JonPeters.5630:

snip

I wouldn’t get my hopes up guys: Got a Ranger main, and 2 months after Mr Peters’s promises we’re still waiting for our quality of life changes.

Maybe if you’re lucky, you’ll also get some super pro of super win underwater skills

./shrugs

I think the difference is that unlike rangers, we don’t need a significant class overhaul. Sigils will go a LONG way toward adding a ton of build diversity to engineers. We need one thing really (I could live without weapon stats on kits, for example) and that is sigils. The obvious example of flamethrower+sigil of air mentioned by jon peters is a very good example of why this is important.

My only question is: how long? I know that Anet hates that question, but I figure I’ll try anyway. Within 2 months? Within 4 months? Within 6 months? A very rough ballpark estimate on when the devs think sigils on kits will be ready would be nice.

For an mmo 3 months after launch the game is remarkably polished tbh. The only rough spot really is spvp/tpvp.

And to be absolutely clear, I’m not saying they shouldn’t release a 1v1 format, I’m saying they won’t release an unpolished unbalanced 1v1. So ignoring that aspect of it doesn’t really make sense. People clamored for a 1v1 format in Gw1 as well, especially close to launch. Never happened. So I’ll just agree to disagree and leave it at that.

Panther Chameleon.8465:

PotatoOverdose.6583:

In a team setting many of those points are invalid. Guardians aren’t unkillable in a 5v5. Perma stealth thieves aren’t really an issue in formats based around capturing points. 1v1’s are a completely different format based on killing your opponent in single combat. If 1v1’s are introduced, Balance changes for 1v1’s WILL come sooner or later.

Talking about 1v1’s and not talking about 1v1 balance is like talking about the night sky and refusing to talk about the moon. It’s kinda hard to miss, even if you squint real hard.

Talking about the moon? No wonder you’re narrow minded. You realize that we could talk more about celestial bodies, meteor showers, unexplored galaxies, planets in our solar system, and aliens? And you want to talk about the moon? What is this? 1969? I’d rather talk about the space station or mars than a big piece of dust. This game isn’t about killing. And if you honestly believe they will balance this game for 1v1, spvp, wv3, and start esport…oh my. You realize they are still making changes to spvp? That’s what the State of The Game Video was about.

You might have slept through the class on analogy and simile in grade school.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/analogy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simile
Now go and re-read my original post.

And if you honestly think they’re going to release 1v1 content and then not balance a 1v1, you don’t know much about high profile game development. Never release stuff half baked. 1v1’s w/o 1v1 balance will never happen.

Have a nice day.

Panther Chameleon.8465:

PotatoOverdose.6583:

1v1 implemented —> On the lower end of the skill spectrum people whine and kitten about mesmers and thieves --> On the higher end of the skill spectrum people whine and kitten about guardians and perma stealth thieves (sittin invis forever if they can’t win which leads to rage) —>Eventually more whining-->nerfs—>wvw/spvp/tpvp suffer.

You don’t have to talk about 1v1 balance; other people will talk about 1v1 balance when it gets implemented, and they will talk a lot.

Literally everything you just said is already in the game, so wtf if your point? They’re unkillable guardians, perma stealth thieves, and mesmers in spvp. If you want to use a perma stealth thief in 1v1 be my kittening guest. If I can’t kill you and you can’t kill me bring on the kittening “Draw”. I don’t want Anet to waste their time with 1v1 balance, and they’ve already made it clear it’s not going to happen. So, why are you still bringing it up?. Let the devs balance the game with the pro’s, so they can get the esport rolling. Just because people will bltch and moan about 1v1 balance doesn’t mean we should limit game modes and options for everyone. I’m not saying, “Don’t start a thread and talk about 1v1 balance.” I’m saying, “Right here, in this kittening thread let’s stop saying the same kittening thing as the rest of the mob.”

In a team setting many of those points are invalid. Guardians aren’t unkillable in a 5v5. Perma stealth thieves aren’t really an issue in formats based around capturing points. 1v1’s are a completely different format based on killing your opponent in single combat. If 1v1’s are introduced, Balance changes for 1v1’s WILL come sooner or later.

Talking about 1v1’s and not talking about 1v1 balance is like talking about the night sky and refusing to talk about the moon. It’s kinda hard to miss, even if you squint real hard.

Come on guys, you know the Devs know better than to come on these forums. Elementalists have 3 dev posts on the front page. Rangers, warriors, and thieves all have at least one on the front page. We have none over the last….20 pages? 30 pages? Do we even have a single dev post anywhere? (not counting a few stickies from week 1)

Many of those bugs (like sigils, all of the scaling bugs, cooldown bugs, deployable turrets, etc.) have been there since pre-launch. It’s fairly clear that many of the big bugs (sigils) just aren’t worth fixing.

Edit: last dev post on these boards was over 2 months ago and can be found here:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/Weapon-Kit-Auto-Attack/first
To be fair they did eventually add auto-attack to some kits.

Second balance patch since launch where we didn’t get nerfed. Yay! Although tbh the patch is more bug fix than balance change for all classes, so yeah… The only nerf is a line of sight requirement for an ele skill.

1v1 implemented —> On the lower end of the skill spectrum people whine and kitten about mesmers and thieves --> On the higher end of the skill spectrum people whine and kitten about guardians and perma stealth thieves (sittin invis forever if they can’t win which leads to rage) —>Eventually more whining-->nerfs—>wvw/spvp/tpvp suffer.

You don’t have to talk about 1v1 balance; other people will talk about 1v1 balance when it gets implemented, and they will talk a lot.

The typical bunker build is:
Med Kit
Bomb kit
Slick Shoes/Elixir Gun/Elixir S/Toolkit
Elixir R

Rifle or P/S depending on whether you want more control/damage or more defense.

Basic Traits you’ll want:
Forceful Explosives (Explosives)
Self Regulating Defenses (Alch)
Protection Injection (Alch)
Speedy Kits(Tools)
Inertial Converter (Minor trait, 15 tools, recharges heal, big ol bomb, toss elixir R self rez)
If taking Elixir gun: Kit refinement
If taking Tool kit: Power wrench
Optional, but very useful: Cloaking Device (Inventions)

Remaining traits are dealers choice. Reinforced Shield is nice for P/S. Cleaning formula is nice if you go elixir s-elixir r as you’ll have 2 utility and 2 toolbelt skills that benefit from it. Short fuse allows you to use you’re very useful bombs (particularly smoke and concussion) more often. Backpack regnerator for heal stacking (this one’s good with the elixir gun variant).

Gear is Clerics or Soldiers depending on how heal heavy your build is. If elixir gun (comes with 3 heals with kit refinement, 2 super elixirs and the toolbelt) go clerics, else go soldiers.

Runes are Dolyaks or Earth (with protection injection).
Sigils don’t matter for non static-discharge engineers.

Fractals are fine. They’re a lot of fun. The problem is finding a group, which is a general problem in gw2 not specific to fractals.

And yes, I know about the lfg website. You shouldn’t need 3rd party content to effectively run fotm (but you do, if you want to pug).

DreamOfACure.4382:

2. This idea is too complicated to explain, and thus not fit for standard use

The idea is extremely simple, and not particularly new either. Hgh+ elixirs + toss elizirs+boon duration= lots of might stacking. Or just juggernaut from flamethrower. Or both.

Lots of might+Conditions (particularly burning) = lots of damage. Since engineers have at least 5 excellent ways to apply burning, this is in fact a pretty solid concept/build. I disagree with the op when he says its the highest damage out there, but it is good damage.

Might stacking on condition builds has become quite popular over the past few weeks, what with the old might stacking power builds getting more and more nerfed/bugged with each balance patch (was never a fan of them myself). 15 stacks of might + burning is solid and practical.

Excellent vid. I was greatly amused.

Not every build for every class has to be viable in every format. Not all elementalist builds are viable in spvp. Not all thief builds are viable in wvw.

Engineers have a top tier family of bunker/node control builds and see regular use in high end tpvp. Engineers have a set of very viable static discharge builds which can provide incredible burst and utility and are useful in pvp, wvw, and pve. Both of these families of builds have seen more variety after the patch due to the toolkit buff.

Engineers also have a set of might stacking condition builds (using p/p with juggernaut or hgh or both) that are viable and quite good in wvw and spvp (don’t know about tpvp, havent tried one of these there). The juggernaut variant is also respectable in pve.

Grenadier builds are very viable in WvW and Pve. They don’t have to be the most viable build in spvp. Not every elementalist, warrior, or ranger build has to be a top top tier spvp build. Likewise not every engineer build has to be perfectly viable in all areas.

So your “evidence” is a video that you claim was on these boards 5 days ago that you can’t seem to find? Ok…..

Just to humor you, I switched back to my old grenade build and went to Orr. On crit, it did about 800 per grenade then, and sure enough each grenade on crit does about 800 a pop now.

Went to wvw. Against the same npcs, again, did 800 a pop then, does 800 a pop now. Went to heart of the mists. Does about 720 per grenade on crit against heavy golems now, which coincides with their spvp nerf.

Wanna know what happened? A few classes, like thieves, got some of their offensive traits/skills nerfed and some of their defensive skills/traits buffed. Now many of your player targets have more defense and less offense with similar builds to the ones they had pre-patch, and you do less damage.

Look “bub,” I’d even post screenshots of my nade damage against the same control targets before and after (yes, I do have screenshots of my nade damage pre-patch), but there’s no time stamps on in game screenshots so there’s really no point.

If I do the same damage against npcs, but reduced damage against some players, what does that mean? That’s right! They buffed those players’ defense a bit. Common sense ftw.

Mandrew.2853:

I think it’s right. I don’t want to be at high ranks, and then still have a very high chance of getting very bad players in my group with 0 agony resist and don’t know what to do. People would skip straight to LFG lvl 30’s and no one would bother leveling up. Not a good idea.
I love being in the 20’s and 99% of the time getting a full group that knows exactly what to do and are very good players who have earned that scale by playing well.

Your friends may play with you if you are the lowest. Everyone gains from playing a fotm run earning tokens and nice drops no matter what they level.

Your argument has several flaws. First, agony resist (infusion) doesn’t require that specific character to be a high level. If I have two characters, a level 20 mesmer and a level 2 engineer, I can use shards gotten on the mesmer to get infused equipment for the engineer.

Even if we consider infusion to be a valid argument (which as I’ve pointed out, it isn’t. Shards are account, not character bound), using my earlier model what’s wrong with my level 2 engineer joining a level 4 group? My level 20 mesmer joining a level 22 group?

The second major flaw is alts. Your argument fails to hold any water once we consider that players have multiple characters. I could have a level 20 mesmer and a level 2 engineer. Do i magically forget everything i know about fotm when I play my engineer? Why should my entire guild have to play at a lower level to accommodate my engineer character? Is that really good game design?

Raideen.5973:

PotatoOverdose.6583:

Raideen.5973:

SoulstitchMMO.1396:

Numot.3965:

Xolo.3580:

Well, I wish Engineer had decent DPS outside of grenades. I don’t really enjoy doing all those double actions for one move all the time (and then my target/s move/s and I miss)

They do have good dps outside of grenades. Grenade spam was just more damage than the alternatives.

Exactly this. Engineers are on par with other classes with other specs. With grenades they were superior to many other specs.

WRONG…engineers are now sub par…it was the only viable spec for wvw…now, you get nothing…nothing but pure 100% pure unadultrated frustration. ZERO reason to play an engineer in wvw

Ignoring the other factual inaccuracies of your post, you do realize that grenades were untouched in wvw. Literally, the only change to grenades in WvW was grenade barrage has increased range and damage, and grenades hit their target faster. There was no change to grenade damage in pve or wvw. None, no changes to damage in WvW/pvp. Zero, zip, nadda. Seriously, go read the patch notes.

It’s uninformed posts like these that are the problem with these boards. People need to take the time to read the patch notes before commenting on the patches.

You must be one of those people who accepts what they are told. Its simple bub, my RANGE, FREQUENCY and DAMAGE are all less than pre-patch…hell, I did not even know the patch did anything to engineers. I just logged in as usual and he was just not doing the same. Elixir U is not even giving me haste like it did before.

Bottom line is arena net lies, blizzard lies, all game companies lie. Its called Public Relations.

All I know is that overnight, no spec change, no gear change the enemies I would bombard with grenade spamming were no longer running away like they used to. So, I go to the forums to see if others have had this same issue and wallah, engineer changes.

People have been whining on the forums since before launch. Usually the same type of whine every week from different people. Provide a single shred of hard evidence to support your claim please.

The easiest explanation for your described issues is that your targets started having more toughness. Since the patch coincided with a wvw bracket change, and the patch nerfed a number of glass cannons, this explanations makes the most sense.

Many glass cannon builds nerfed from various classes=more characters with decent toughness=you do less damage. It’s called a meta and it changes. Deal with it.

So, its a pita to find a group for fotm. Yes, I know about the lfg website.

Here’s my question: Why not use the fotm level of the highest group member in the party?

In other words, say your group has someone that has lvl 20 fractals, but not everyone is that far. Why not allow your group to go to the level 20 fractal?

So, say I’m level 2 and my teammates are 6,14,17, and 20. We all do the level 20 fractal. If we succeed, we all advance, to 3,7,15,18, and 21. This would only work if the fractal you completed was greater than or equal to your current fractal level. That way the difficulty of acquiring the next fractal level is equal to or greater than whatever level you are currently on.

As it stands, if your level is too low or too high, it is a serious pita to find a group, which is simply un-fun. Just seems like common sense to me.

Raideen.5973:

SoulstitchMMO.1396:

Numot.3965:

Xolo.3580:

Well, I wish Engineer had decent DPS outside of grenades. I don’t really enjoy doing all those double actions for one move all the time (and then my target/s move/s and I miss)

They do have good dps outside of grenades. Grenade spam was just more damage than the alternatives.

Exactly this. Engineers are on par with other classes with other specs. With grenades they were superior to many other specs.

WRONG…engineers are now sub par…it was the only viable spec for wvw…now, you get nothing…nothing but pure 100% pure unadultrated frustration. ZERO reason to play an engineer in wvw

Ignoring the other factual inaccuracies of your post, you do realize that grenades were untouched in wvw. Literally, the only change to grenades in WvW was grenade barrage has increased range and damage, and grenades hit their target faster. There was no change to grenade damage in pve or wvw. None, no changes to damage in WvW/pvp. Zero, zip, nadda. Seriously, go read the patch notes.

It’s uninformed posts like these that are the problem with these boards. People need to take the time to read the patch notes before commenting on the patches.

RaynStargaze.6510:

because of the last patch which nerfed grenades insanely hard.

There are no decent teams running a grenade engineer. PERIOD!

There is no reason to have one because most other classes fare much better in dps AND burst and bring along more utility/better survivability – PERIOD!

This deserves an own thread! None of that “stuff it together with reactions to recent patch”

Please restore my Build!

“There are no decent teams running a grenade engineer. PERIOD!”
There have NEVER been decent teams that ran a grenade engineer. Some might have experimented with the concept and then promptly dropped it. In high level play engineers were almost always used for their bunker/node control builds. Sometimes, extremely rarely, static discharge builds were used for roamers.

Post-patch, we actually have more variety in both our bunker and static discharge builds because of the significant buffs to toolkit.

Grenades were only ever significantly popular in pve and wvw, and those builds were not nerfed (in fact they were buffed via improvements to grenade barrage and flight time).

Edit: The only valid spvp/tpvp build that got significantly nerfed in the patch were power based alchemy builds. But these days, most alchemy builds are condition based anyway.

Mell.4873:

PotatoOverdose.6583:

Mell, Casia, and all of the other people citing “maths,” please post a video of your maths in action (as I and others have already requested), that obeys my criteria established in my previous post:

“In order of preference, I would like to see tPvP>sPvP>WvW. If you post spvp/tpvp videos, please post entire matches. If you post WvW footage, please make sure that the uninterrupted clips it consists of are at least each 4 minutes long, to prevent ‘creative’ editing.”

Again, I would really, really like to see your “maths” in action. Really. Post a video.

Fine fine here is a video. I could do more and explaining the maths step by step. Ill just see what you think of this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72_f08LNmuw&feature=youtu.be
Sorry about the lag. i think the record frame rate is to low or something.

A good video, solid engineer play in a team environment. The lag is barely noticeable. But here’s the thing. Most of your fights, you don’t do huge numbers. You do reasonable sustained dps. But that DPS is nowhere near top tier for pvp. It takes you (along with teammates) over 30 seconds on average to kill a single player.

There are TONS of videos of thieves and mesmers downing and killing players in less than 10 seconds, and doing so repeatedly. Even setting that aside due to external factors, your damage isn’t all that high. Decent, to be sure, but not near the highest damage possible by any number of glass cannon builds.

Which was and is my point. Engineers can do good damage. But a simple search of guildwars 2 thief or mesmer pvp videos on youtube will deliver videos with far more dps and far quicker kills. And that’s OK. It’s not a reflection on your skill as an engineer. There are classes that can reasonably and practically apply much more DPS than an engineer. Engineers, have far more CC and utility than those classes, we don’t have to be the top damage dealer (and we usually aren’t, outside of pve).

Mell, Casia, and all of the other people citing “maths,” please post a video of your maths in action (as I and others have already requested), that obeys my criteria established in my previous post:

“In order of preference, I would like to see tPvP>sPvP>WvW. If you post spvp/tpvp videos, please post entire matches. If you post WvW footage, please make sure that the uninterrupted clips it consists of are at least each 4 minutes long, to prevent ‘creative’ editing.”

Again, I would really, really like to see your “maths” in action. Really. Post a video.

Mell, like your past threads on this subject, there is absolutely no demonstration of the validity of your claims in practice. If anyone is wondering, a previous identical thread by the op can be found here:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/Eng-highest-dps-class/first

Please post a video of you putting your theories into practice. In order of preference, I would like to see tPvP>sPvP>WvW. If you post spvp/tpvp videos, please post entire matches. If you post WvW footage, please make sure that the uninterrupted clips it consists of are at least each 4 minutes long, to prevent ‘creative’ editing.

If you lack the software/know how to record in game footage, please send me a PM.
Until then, this is fairly worthless drivel unsubstantiated by any practical evidence, as in your previous thread.

All classes are viable provided they don’t run glass cannon.

Just posting to convey my appreciation for the event. A job well done. A bit on the long side but well worth it overall. There was a fairly large window for which people could get in on the event, on my overflow server the event lasted 3 hours or so.

Again, thank you Anet, hopefully subsequent events are as successful as this one, if not more so.

coglin.1496:

Everyone who hasn’t leveled another class will be in for a nice shock when they discover other classes have just as many issues.

This.
Many classes got hit much harder than we did (e.g. mesmers). We actually received some interesting buffs (e.g. grenade barrage, magnet) along with a few modest nerfs.

-Grenades got better imo. Grenade barrage, our highest damage skill, got buffed. Grenade travel time was reduced. In wvw and Pve grenades got a straight up buff.

-In spvp grenades have a higher burst (thanks to grenade barrage buff) and faster travel time at the expense of 10% damage. In spvp Burst>sustained damage, so I’ll take this change.

-The smoke bomb nerf ticks me off a bit, but honestly Big’ol bomb was left untouched, and that was bomb kit’s largest contribution to our node defense build. Concussion bomb was also left untouched so on balance it was a modest nerf.

-The toss elixir-r nerf isn’t that big a deal, and will be a fairly impotent change, but I’m not gonna give anet any ideas as to why.

-Toolkit was fairly worthless before the patch. Now it’s a gimmick kit. Meh.

Tbh though, I really like the new grenade barrage.

Xplosiv.1502:

they should post these patch notes on the screen before choosing class in character creation, there would be much less work on the class, because nobody would play it.

to whomever, who states that granades nerf for pvp was actually a buff – first you have to play pvp to be able to state something, your opinion in that regard is worthless otherwise. Players are not mobs, they move, dodge, jump, block, and Anet made this skill from hard to hit into not even worth hitting, cause of the smaller dmg.

Saw the engineer notes ==> Rerolled thief for pvp. Soon there will be only Warriors and thieves running around pvp, seems like it’s one of Anet’s goals.

First of all, most engineers in high level tournaments don’t even use grenades. They use bunker builds. To use your own words: ‘you have to play pvp to be able to state something’ — you obviously don’t.

Second, most glass cannon grenade builds (which no one uses in tournaments btw) could do in excess of 1880 damage/grenade toss. Now they do 1700 damage/toss. Here’s the icing on the cake. They buffed grenade barrage, so your burst damage (which is what counts) goes up. And since grenade barrage actually works with weapon stats/sigils, the buffed grenade barrage can do even more damage. You really should take your own advice on this one.

Ostricheggs.3742:

3 blinds over 6 seconds.

Elixir R was doubly nerfed in the nerf to downed state health and the cooldown nerf. The stun break is still amazing, sure, but the throw is nearly worthless for rezzing now.

Grenades aren’t as massive a deal. It was just a big kitten YOU, especially now that we’re dealing more damage to ourselves from retal from each grenade with both carrion/rabid. It was unexpected and not needed in any way.

All in all I feel like roaming engis outside of extremely niche builds are a thing of the past now. We’re now forced into a support role when the meta is going to QUICKLY swing towards burst DPS (because of the downed state health nerf).

Dark days. After 1700 games on the engi I gotta hang up my rifle and roll something else. We aren’t viable roamers and are sub-par support

Nope, read it again:
Smoke Bomb: This skill’s radius has been reduced to 180 from 240 when traited. Smoke Bomb is now active for 4 seconds, pulsing every 2. This change also affects the Autodefense Bomb Dispenser trait.

Blind tick at 0 (when bomb detonates), tick at 2, tick at 4.
Compare to pre-nerf:
tick at 0, tick at 1, tick at 2, tick at 3.
If overlap happened in pre-nerf (and overlaps did happen if you were kiting a melee) you would effectivley loose a tick.

Grenades were only “nerfed” in spvp, where they were pretty bad at high level play anyway. They werent really nerfed though, they were changed to have a higher speed == tighter grouping and easier to hit. Grenade barrage burst was buffed everywhere. In wvw and pve grenades were buffed only. Seeing as the main arena for grenades was wvw, I see this as a net buff.

Honestly, bunker engis (which are based mostly around knockdowns anyway) are almost exactly as viable as they were pre-patch.. We didn’t get hit nearly as bad as bunker eles. Engi roamers in wvw got buffed straight up through changes in grenade kit and tool kit.

Tbh this was a fairly balanced change.

Grenades in spvp move faster, which decreases spread at all ranges btw. This was needed and useful. This combined with grenade barrage being fixed/buffed to work with grenadier puts at grenades at a net buff in spvp. Remember that with rifle out, grenade barrage scales with rifle stats/sigils.
Grenades recieved no nerfs in wvw/pve at all, only buffs.

toolkit changes
Magnet: Now quite useful in wvw.
Gear shield: 1 second of added block, good.

Smoke bomb: Reduced aoe. Meh, it was only ever good in melee range anyway. Went from 4 blinds over 3 seconds to 3 blinds over 4 seconds. This one could go either way tbh as blind doesn’t benefit from being over-applied. If it was a nerf, it was a pretty dam light nerf.

Toss Elixir-R. Meh, this was the only real nerf tbh. Elixir R is still our best stunbreaker so w/e.

All of the other changes were neither here nor there and fairly worthless to boot. Elixir S is still bugged, even though they said they fixed it. Go figure.