Guild Wars 2

Well, this game has been RNG Wars 2 since its conception. This type of feedback has been given plenty for years and fallen on deaf ears since beta. I would learn to accept or move on, as many upcoming and new titles are abandoning passive procs and automated play style, in exchange for more player controlled action and tactics as we move away from the “turn based rpg” mind set that relied on these type of mechanics. You’ll see a more emphasis on active choice vs randomized stuff that just happening that benfits you or punishes the enemy regardless of tactic or choice made by the player or enemy. In a more competitive tournament worthy game like Smash Brothers 4 by Nintendo you’ll notice they removed this type of mechanic for their latest smash bros which was designed with a ranked mode and an E-sports scene they’re finally ready to support, they only add those mechanics before because they wanted the outcome of match’s to be random and did not want a competitive scene for the game. Course large out cry and popularity of e-sports made them change their mind with their last title.

Meanwhile you see Blizzard’s Heroes of the Storm completely missing any kind of RNG skills, the only critical strike skill they even put in says “next hit crits, refresh’s every 10 seconds, each attack lowers this cd by one second” This is the closest thing to rng and its not random at all, you have full control of when you crit and how often you crit. This is a design they’ve learned from past games and from I was told will be used in future titles. Once again though, they wanted a game built around player choice and they’ve seen the negative response and effects of computer determined attacks vs player determined.

In short, GW2 is designed around rng and stuff happening in the background the enemy and the player using the skills cannot predict or often times are even aware are happening. Their entire trait/stat model follows this. I think its a bit late to expect anything less, but if you WANT to see less of that there are TONS of games coming out (and a few mmo’s) that are more action combat driven and more about character choice and control with the possibility of a popular tournament scene that will not have such mechanics. But, this is just not one of them. On the flipside, some people like it, especially casual players or characters who are more interested in just min/maxing etc. So it has a market, and they’re happy with that market.

I quit years ago because I found conquest boring and dull resulting in a stale meta. You seriously think I’m going to pay money to come back to this game to SOMETIMES get to play stronghold and other times be forced to play 15-20 minutes of conquest. Hah! Not taking that risk, friends and I will go elsewhere.

As one of the thousands that walked away from this game around 6 months after its launch due to the stale, unoriginal, boring, tedious game mode that was Conquest, I am very excited after all this time to MAYBE give this game another chance. This is the game mode I expected years ago…all my friends who quit around the same time are thinking the same thing. This very well could bring a bunch of us back….only time will tell.

The reason stronghold should be a healthy addition is because it is pretty much what people wanted upon gw2 release.

The reason moba’s for example do so well, they take the rpg combat scenario and create a diverse battlefield where several roles are able and with purpose.

You can have junglers. Champs that do pve stuff well like clear waves. Champs that support, Champs that tank, champs that skirmish or assassinate. Far more variety than you will find in your typical control point map, that usually revolve around who can sit on the point the longest as for most King of the Hill variants.

By adding a mode that puts in a pve objective system allows pve builds to function, the game is built around pve as well of course, so abilities and talents that before were not viable in SPVP suddenly have purpose, as do many others given the several objectives the map boasts. You could defend clear monsters, capture heroes to fight for your team. If this follows moba’s as games start to climax you will also start to see large team fights as the team no longer spreads out to their individual roles but band together for that final push to take down the enemy base. This also gives you more variety of types of combat over the course of the game.

If you follow/play heroes of the storm. It is built with all this in mind, which allows them to get really crazy with their champion design.

Being as guild wars 2 offers much more customization than you’d find in a moba (bar the many hero choices) through item/talents etc. This should open the doors to all kinds of interesting choices that really benefits from its wide customization where before, it has been rather stale to bunker build, roamer build with most builds being built around pushing people off a point surviving, or doing lots of condition damage.

My friends quit the game within the first 6 months, as did the majority of the spvp fanbase. Whats left is the people so die hard to the system they’re willing to continue playing it…OR they just really find conquest entertaining. But, they are the minority when you consider the larger audience that once held interest in this game. This game mode very well may be what that original audience wanted all along…and with any good marketing on arenanets part may pull back a lot of those players breathing much needed life into spvp.

I applaud them for taking this massive leap in hopes of bringing those players back. More players = more money for them = more frequent updates. So in the end, I hope its executed properly and fun.

You could do lots of things to make it work.

1. Restrict ultimates. (not ideal I know, but would help)
2. Allow losing team bonus points for killing players who have not died. (heroes of the storm uses this.
3. Remove Rally from TDM. (it by far causes things to drag out and snowball more than anything)
4. Lower the points needed to win.
5. other things……. (The community is smart and vast…I’m sure they could think of other answers that I have not just off my experience In playing other games.)

There are lots of angles to attack the problems with arena that are very simple, I just hope it doesn’t take arenanet another 2 years to test them before they realize how easy it was to fix.

runeblade.7514:

The problem with Courtyard isn’t Deathmatch. There has been threads after threads that people wanted deathmatch.

The problem is the implementation.

• Deathmatch should have been annihilation. Die once, no respawn.
• Reduce the size to 2v2 and 3v3. 5v5 is just too zergy.

I agree it should be reduced to allow smaller teams and have it’s own ranked mode. It should/could not be die once/no respawn. Much like it is not that way in more recent games with TDM. Why? Because of ultimates. If you die one no respawn…the game becomes run in pop your ult see who wins. Which is rather boring…..they would have to disable ultimates, which they’re not going to do.

(if they were willing to disable ultimates the way WoW disables stronger/longer dd abilities in death match…then maybe we’d have something)

I’m not saying TDM map belongs in the que with the other ranked maps….but consider this.

I managed to get 10 people from who used to play the game (back in the first 6 months before we saw no desperately needed changes to SPVP and when the devs didn’t say 1 word in this forum the entire time so we figured it was dead) to show back up ENTIRELY cause they saw a TDM map…they were all excited as was I……but because the mode didn’t have ranked, it was considered a joke map….only in hot join and quickly grew unpopular. Its not fun to play the mode that doesn’t have a competitive scene or built in MMR match making.

So…we all quit and haven’t played since. Team death match is the most popular game mode in any game. It grinds down the stratetgy simply to kill the other team, which is usually all anyone wants to do….dive into an orgy of slaughter against their enemies. It has different strategic depth built around combat alone….is it the most ideal? NO I’d probably want something with strategic depth like heroes of the storm, but I’d still take TDM over king of the hill type maps…….which btw, conquest in the many other games I play, is the least played mode in that game. It would be no different here had they put in other options from the beginning.

a lot of this stuff in the blog sounds too little too late.

Also, you say “a new game mode is a huge undertaking”. Well smaller companies are throwing out new game modes willy nilly, take smite and its many game modes its thrown out. Are you saying your team is so small that it cannot create a new game mode despite saying “your working on it” for almost 2 years?

Hit games get made in that amount of time……the guys who made counter strike did it in a year. 2 guys. Just saying.

You have been beating this dead horse for awhile, the reason your game isn’t popular and the reason no one takes e-sports seriously, is because the game itself is not fun….you need a new game mode, the current one is boring.

Untill you target the real issue…your going to be in the same spot. Seriously this is what it feels like watching you guys try to fix pvp.

Not sure who you are, but you seem to want this game to grow into an E sport and I’m going to lay down the only reason it is not.

The game is not fun.

Simply put, most people don’t find the game entertaining…that’s all there is to it. I bring up GW2 often at conventions, forums, other pvp game chat rooms, with my own followers etc….its always negative reactions.

The heart and soul reason…is people think that the pvp is boring to play and boring to watch. You can spend an additional couple years chasing the rabbit down the hole trying to find some other solution…but that’s what it is.

Whether they hate the combat mechanics like Rally, or they don’t like the camera controls…or they simply just find conquest boring (many fall into that category)…or maybe its the fact the game boasts endless customizations where really there are only a couple competitive/viable ones per class. Pick your poison, but the game at its base is just not entertaining enough to play…and EVERYONE even other developers of major games that I have interviewed in the recent past, all acknowledge that GW2 does not support their game well….some went into more detail but I’m not about to call out any names here, but I thought its funny that they try to distance themselves so much from this game to point out how they are NOT making the same mistakes.

If your really passionate about E-sports…might check out some games on the horizon that are putting fun combat first and actually trying to develop their game into E-sports…..like Gigantic. Even EQN combat looks like it might be shaping up to be something fun, and then there is warhammer 40k online that is going with a full pvp focus. Problem with games like this, pvp was stiched on at the end….so look at games who put pvp first in their development process, and you’ll probably find a game that was completely goaled to making pvp fun and where the pvp is fun, you find the players, you find the viewers….you inevitably find the e-sports.

EDIT: I think its funny that the conquest game mode appeared in smite and was the least played map so they eventually removed it, league of legends has a similar style gameplay “Dominion” and its their least played map….I’ve even seen this type of play style in Gears of war and its the least played…….so why did GW2 choose to make a game mode most people don’t like their core pvp mode? Curious.

Sad reality is no matter what new map they put in, with no ranked que or support for one….people will quickly stop playing it after the initial excitement is gone. Hotjoin sucks the joy out for a lot of people. Then it will end up just like the arena map….mostly abandoned.

And knowing this company….they will no doubt repeat that mistake again.

Not sure I’d brag about being the best at a game with a low population or that no one takes seriously competitively, but the weirdo is right. I didn’t enjoy playing the game at all so I quit over a year ago and I’ve been a lot happier.

Come back to the forum after months and see the same names complaining about the same stuff they were close to 2 years ago. Lots of masochists playing this game.

You know I come read these forums about every 4 months or so, haven’t really played in over a year. Kinda jumped out about 6 months after playing and seeing absolutely 0 posts from devs and an ignore of the many write ups of suggestions that were made way back in beta.

Now I see they’ve put in about 3 of the 15 things that were popular suggested in beta that the game needed for basic infrastructure, and I see people still complaining about the exact same problems.

What is even more weird though, is I see the EXACT same names I saw crying almost 2 years ago who are STILL here complaining about the EXACT same problems they were complaining about when I quit 1 1/2 years ago. WHY ARE YOU STILL PLAYING THIS GAME?! I’ve been having TONS of fun playing other games. It didn’t take me 2 years to figure out that they were spreading lies about fixing things over a year ago. I saw through the lie back then, your all still sitting here expecting something to change and its kind of sad…

Well, I’ve given a lot of this feedback over a year ago, but i’ll hop back in and throw out some of my thoughts.

As for Moba style game mode, you don’t really need to copy/paste whats going on with LoL or Dota. Guild wars 2 can create its own style the way Heroes of the storm did or Orcs must die unchained.

Both these games are still in development but changing the focus on simply last hitting/gold generation and item progression to more action oriented progression.

Orcs must die unchained uses its original title focus of "tower defense’ and expands upon it by making the pvp about who can tower defense better while occasionally pushing their units past the enemy towers.

heroes of the storm however created a simple wave push with towers and barracdes to push past with added 2nd objectives to help achieve this in unique ways on each map.

I think guild wars 2 could take a lot of what Heroes of the storm does, but from a 3rd person similar to Smite.

So now that we’ve reviewed whats working and an approach to take with GW2 its time for a wrap up of how you can push a game along in a moba style game in guild wars 2.

1. Two lane maps.

As smite started experimenting with lately with their new moba map. Two lanes means more team fights and more action. The use of 3 very wide split lanes puts the focus on individual fights and is appropriate when the sole purpose of the game is farm-wars. Aka, who can last hit/deny etc better for the first 5-15 minutes of the game while avoiding being ganked by a jungler. But because no one really wants to watch that, and gw2 isn’t designed around that…it has no place in a gw2 moba. So narrowing it down to 2 lanes that are reasonably close. We can guarantee that more fights will break out earlier and more often. (also its easier for a shout caster to keep tabs on things) Best of all this data has already been experimented with and proven.

2. Alternative progression.

So its kinda complicated to fit in individual progression in a gw2 moba, as no one wants to have to unlock their skills as they play or have to buy items or buffs. And tbh I don’t think its necessary. So an obvious alternative is ways to increase your npc waves in helping you blow up the enemy base faster. We can do this several ways.

A. Through mercenary camps.
In heroes of the storm, killing neutral npc’s that spawn occasionally you can then earn them to fight for your team. After defeat they go back to full health and head down the nearest lane to help your lane push on in.

B. Alternate objectives.
In the new Smite map after so many kills (players/npc/junglemonsters) you earn a powerful unit that runs down a lane and help syour team take down towers. This is a fresh idea, but Heroes of the storm also has many, including gold coins you can collect to pay a ghost in the middle to attack the enemy base, or tributes that spawn around the map that you must fight over for a map wide debuff to the enemy team. You could even have points you have to hold, that while you control give your side a buff (similar to a very unplayed moba known as Demigod, that actually had some fresh ideas).

C. Power up units
Like demigod tried, and orcs must die unchained did. You could have a system so you could earn things to help buff your units. This is tricky however, because a system like this could quickly create snowballing. No one likes it when a game is decided 2 minutes in or even 5 minutes. But this can create a separate strategic approach to how you play deciding how to buff your units.

3. NPC boss defeat for victory.

Just like smite, to win should require killing a boss npc that the enemy team must protect. (like a guild lord npc ^^). This just makes blowing up the enemy “base” that much more exciting because your not just killing turrets/buildings your taking out a sorta raid boss.

I have lots more ideas and values to share on this topic, but unfortunately I have to get to bed. I’ll break out my notes later as I was designing something like this for an unmentioned mod. But keep in mind GW2 has something no other moba (not even smite) has. And that is a very depthy combat system. So the moba does not need as much going on as its counter parts do, that have very limited simple combat mechanics. The player needs to be able to have goals and reasons to team up, split up, and travel to different parts of the map. But at its heart the goal should be combat, fighting the enemy team.

Anyway, feel free to give feedback suggestions to what i said or expand upon it. I’ll be more than happy to follow up on this later.

3v3 probably most ideal, though i could totally see 2v2 being ok.

The new arena map is really cool, I’ve had lots of positive feedback from players who quit over a year ago or months ago coming back with a few complaints.

Its hard to find a good server to play on. (most are 10/10 zergfests)
Few servers even have players (last night there was two running 10/10 full, rest were mostly empty)
No arena que.

I think as you put game modes into the game, you need to consider highly to allow the que system to work for it as it does for ranked solo/team conquest.

I understand your reasoning of wanting to test it out on custom arenas first, but the problem with that is, most players will not take interest. Custom arenas are harder to take seriously.

There is no balance, players can switch teams on the fly, leave on the fly, etc. Most custom arenas have weird rules set not everyone agrees with. You get less loot in custom arenas. Its not as easy/fun to just que up and get paired with other players for a competitive rewarding match.

I think you’ll suffer the same problem with ANY new mode you introduce, if you don’t put it in a que, they think your not taking it seriously, so they wont either.

IMO, arena works best with 2on2-or 3v3, currently there is no game mode option for people who cant put together a full 5 man premade. While I would fine if this game had a5v5 que, like WoW and other mmo’s, it should have smaller team match up options. Doing this would rekindle a lot of people who wanted to jump in and enjoy thi smap, but got annoyed by the lack of que and crappy options in custom arenas and turned away again. ANY new modes you do, please consider this.

Thank you

The Kurt.2518:

Zinwrath.2049:

Reviving someone should require you to stop what your doing and heal that person (or use an ability to revive them). I understand rally in pve, but pvp it should be a conscious choice to stop what your doing to save your friend, or continue killing your enemy.

Where the downed mechanic really shines imo is when you come to save your downed ally fighting your downed enemy, with the enemy having more health. The fact that you have to quickly choose if you should kill the enemy with damage, stomp them or revive your ally instead provides a lot of depth

it SHOULD have depth. Risk/reward. saving a team mate should not be a walk in the park. right now, in the midst of a team fight, I can go down..and my allies can resurrect me without even risking anything or even consciously making the decision to do it. its not a decision, they were attacking someone…they can just continue attacking people. I’m mindlessly resurrected as a result of a mechanic that took no choice or thought on their part. no risk, no change in strategy. they just keep on attacking stuff and because I’m the vicinity or happened to damage the guy who died, I come back.

this is the problem. rally allows for no effort resurrects. resurrecting should ALWAYS require a risk and always be a decision. stop what your doing to help your friend, or continue on fighting and try to keep them off your friend till you can kill your enemy THEN return to resurrect.

also, rally causes snowballs in team fights. the moment someone managed to kill someone on the other team, even if 3 of your teammates were downed, they all resurrect and instantly you have the upper hand.

I guarantee if it never existed, no one would complain that the game needed it. its just one of those things some people have grown accustom to so hate to see it go, but tbh it would be a more interesting game if it did not exist.

Few things to add some clarity on.

League of legends, has over 100 characters to play as.
Has 5 defined roles due to its game mode.
Has a game mode that has a lot more going on than 3 people having bunker wars.
Offers a scenario where you get to see 1on1 fights, then later it becomes 5v5 team fights.

So there is simply a lot more going on in it, and thus it stays fresh longer…and even then they still added new game modes.

Another thing. New arena style map.
First really different map, it works fine…it should be competitive with a ranked que (even if no leaderboards are put in atm). Make it 2 and 3 player team ques. Bam solved the issue for players with only 2-3 people teams who want to be competitive. It is arena so, its all centered around team fights, you can have a lot more versatile builds…careful of 5v5 it will become AE spam fest…but suppose you could have that too.

I doubt arenanet has the resources or desire to dive into more interesting pvp modes that might require more back end coding or ..really any coding or design. SO arena is probably the only real hope left….hope to see them go further with it, as maps would be easy to design for it. You wouldn’t need very many…the first one alone is plenty well done.

Just wanted to add my thoughts.

Just my 2 cents, My ques are much faster, I feel a lot more satisfaction out of playing being able to easily change my cosmetics and see my exp bar, and track bar moving.

New map is super fun.

Sure lots of “baddies”…which is suprising cause I haven’t touched this game in nearly a year and I’m still top score in almost every game, but hey…they are “bad” on the other team too.

I really have nothing but positive feelings about it, its convinced me and my other friend to take a break from other pvp games we’ve been playing to give it another chance.

ya I kinda thought this as well earlier. But then…not sure why people would chill in HOTM. I mean it doenst have a bank or broker…

Downed state isn’t a problem…its not really balanced, but its ok.

the problem is rally. Rally gives people free resurrects with no risk.

I and other notable pvp/game reviewers have brought it up before. (since beta actually).

Reviving someone should require you to stop what your doing and heal that person (or use an ability to revive them). I understand rally in pve, but pvp it should be a conscious choice to stop what your doing to save your friend, or continue killing your enemy.

Also 5v5 team fights are a mess, and things snowball very quickly due to rally. It would be best for it to just go entirely from spvp.

100% agree.

I too enjoy the new map and mode. I think it allows people to bring solid team comps instead of the bunker meta that rules (and will always rule) conquest. Also, its centered around team fights entirely and is fast and straight to the action with combat being the key and clear goal.

I think other modes could work with gw2, potentially something along the lines of blizzards new Heroes of the storm (which i’m in alpha and enjoying), but it would require arenanet to think outside the box, and probably require a lot of coding.

Arena is pretty simple to put in, and balance can happen on a class by class basis. My only concern atm is multiple classes on the same team. AKA stuff like a bunch of minion masters on one team, or a ton of mesmers etc, where you spam the screen. Almost feel like if it becomes competitive for the first time ever they might consider a cap of 1 profession type each..the way moba’s etc keep their games balanced.

They never said it was a balance thing. They said their internal tests was just everyone popping their ults right away then the battle was over. They said this excuse multiple times, that ULTS made death match impossible.

Which is why i suggested a way around them.

one solution would be to restrict it so professions are unique in teams, aka- only one of each allowed like mobas do. But that will never happen.

Their reasoning for not putting it in forever is that they dont know how to balance ults. Like everyone just blows their ult right away. I suggested doing what wildstar or gears of war did with deathmatch where you just have a number of team lives (examp 6 lives for 2v2).

Another suggestion was making arena specific PVP ults. Some could stay as one (examp: necromancer flesh golem). But those classes that need an ult that isnt as ridiculous as supply drop for engi etc, could be given a new ult that isnt something you just blow right away…but has a steady use through out the match.

I had some more but those were suggested about 1 1/2 years ago, so i cant remember them. Anyway, why they never tried those i have no idea. But it was clear that spvp was not that important at launch, which i think is the real reason it never happend.

All of these changes, should have just been how the game was launched in the first place, you’d have less backfire from people. BUT didn’t listen to any of the well written feedback gave in beta so…here we are years later putting them in and ticking people off.

Truth is these are all healthier. It doesn’t matter if you have 10 options for a character or 3000. As things go “pro” it will be narrowed down to 1-3 “optimal” options that if you don’t pick your a fing scrub. Its a bit above an average persons head, so I expect a lot of people to rage on it. At the end of the day, some people were playing magic the gathering more obsessed with the pre-building of their character than actually playing it. Unfortunatly just like ccg’s that path is impossible to balance especially on a grand scale, and usually results in a “meta” build that is the only “optimal” option. So what you create is the illusion of options by adding 1000 options. You still will only have 1-3. So I say, let the developers focus in on a few options make them all very entertaining to play, so people can enjoy playing without having to watch a youtube video or copy and paste a pros build so they can get into the action.

Seriously, its not dumbing it down. Its saving new players some time from having to copy and paste a pro build. Lets leave it at that, and move on.

Zanthrax.6538:

So a game that had an amazing game mode good design still took 2 years to get rolling? That further proves my point that we should just take some deep breathes and be patient….if your sick of waiting constantly take a break you can come back at any time! =)

LoL was successful at launch, I played since beta…while they made minor alterations to champion design and many seasons later gold distribution and jungle changes…the game stayed more or so the same. The forums were mostly positive in the first year the game was out as everyone who played it was pleased, thus why it was ALWAYS on a steady rise in popularity, it never trucked and suddenly lost a huge chunk of its pop.

This game however had a huge loss shortly after launch followed by a slow rise, followed by another plummet…only recently with these pve benefitting changes suddenly breathing life back into the population. This is due to the fact generally most people are unhappy with the game mode, they don’t enjoy it they get bored and move on. A game can be unbalanced…every game is unbalanced to some degree (that isn’t a mirror match) its the fun factor that matters…if the game was fun more people would play for no rewards.

Also, to say the game needs to “ripen” has merit…but on the flipside its hard to say that will be the case here.

The rate at which crucial changes to add features that normally In todays market would be part of the game at launch is rather slow due to shared resources as you pointed out. Suggesting that there will be no “boom” to shock interest into the game….instead you get slow add ons that don’t offer enough consideration. Also todays market (especially the mmo one) is extremely competitive, and there are many games moving into gw2 territory that will offer pvp support.

Wildstar has the backbone structure to support many pvp modes and has several forms in development that seem to be testing well.

Everquest next has a huge talented team featuring new technology a simple similar play style to gw2 with a massively more powerful game engine matched with the ability to MAKE YOUR OWN PVP MAPS AND GAME MODES.

GW2 devs are still trying to reprogram things to they can make simple changes like…like allow items to cross pvp/pve or allow for 2 sigils on a 2hnder…..the ready que for spvp isn’t even fixed yet. These should not be difficult fixes, but because the gw2 engine was rushed and not optimized for anything outside their goals for pve, are not able to be done with out recoding…which is timely and costly. Which is why we wait forever for things that would otherwise seem stupidly simple tiny changes.

In short, I admire your optimism but I feel its misplaced. GW2 more than likely will never have the competitive demographic of pvpers. Theres just too many games that are already further along about to launch with features and basic functions gw2 still is months away from even beginning to implement.

nice to hear someone else say that Geff. I personally been preaching this since beta, there were a few other game reviewers that said pretty much the same thing…though they were a bit more brutal into breaking down every aspect of where the foundation for a competitive game were messed up in the design. (rng on abilities being a huge red flag to this).

Unfortunatly the amount of work it would take to get it into a healthy state is incredibly far off.

Unrealistic solutions if this game was remade from scratch as a pvp only focused title would include.

1. Limiting rune/sigils to only a few at max, with high impact on a core set of play style strengths. (if they were ported over at all)
2. Limiting amulet stats to 1 spread of stats to every character (aka, there would be no amulet)
3. Similar to where WoW had to finally go in the attempt to make things balance, professions would be better broke down into a few clearly defined play styles. Examp: tanky/turret eng, buffer/medgun support eng, hard hitting control shotgun eng, etc. This would be a chosen path with appropriate stats for the play style, with limited Major rune choices for limited customization to that play style, to allow for flexibility in map types.
4. game mode that actually encourages multiple class roles. Right now the “hold the point” style is very stale for roles vs mobas that are designed so you need a multitude of roles for different objectives and the eventual 5v5 team fights that come mid/late game. (“Heroes of the storm” pretty much lays out what guild wars 2 pvp shoulda been)
5. Create combat that is a bit less “spammy”. A energy resource tied into all abilities would be one way to solve the issue, or just simply fewer short cd abilities.
6. Downed state removed or heavily redesigned.
7. Out of combat regen removed. It encourages a lot of hit and run tactics that are boring to watch, and also removes a lot of risk to combat. Also self heals longer cd’s across the board.

These are some changes I would have made, that would at least give some customization without throwing the game to the wolves like they did where any kind of predictable balance is incredibly impossible to achieve.

I guarantee if they had released the game with the changes I listed above, this game would be immensely more popular, even if things weren’t 100% polished…or even perfectly balanced. (no moba is…yet they’re still incredibly popular, suppose they’re just balanced enough).

But at the ROOT of the problem, you have the fact this game was NOT designed to be a pvp game. Creating an amazing PVE mmo with some pvp was the goal. When making spvp, the head of development did not hire people initially with expertise at making competitive pvp games, nor did they give appropriate resources to it. It cant be blamed, it was obviously not the primary goal of the game, and it will never be. For the spvp game to have succeeded, it needed an entire team devoted to making a good pvp game…not a pvp game for an mmo. This is the biggest difference from spvp for guild wars 2, and any major pvp title. Like “LoL”…it is simply a pvp game. That is their only focus.

downed state is not crucial to pvp, unless you consider they couldn’t sell us special finisher animations.

Truth is, I go into pvp, and assuming the other player isn’t a tank…I do burst them down…and because I’m not new to the game, I keep more than one ability to give me stability or turn me invisible, so I can finish them instantly with no resistance.

But the real problem isn’t downed state. Its the unbalanced downed state abilities combined with rally, the effortless chance that while killing someone…if the downed guy happened to damage him at all before/after being downed they will get rezzed for free mid fight. You may say it makes play oppurtunities. But I would argue, even if it didn’t rez your friend…you would still kill that person as its part of the objective to…and honestly you may not even notice your friend is downed or care.

I think resurrecting a friendly player needs risk…it needs choice. Stop what I’m doing and risk being killed while I hover over my ally for a few seconds leaving myself vulnerable…OR…ignore the kitten and kill the threat and HOPEFULLY hes still alive for me to go resurrect him. Being in team fights and watching people randomly spawn back to life while no one actually risks anything to rez anyone, is just plain effortless and boring mechanic that creates more annoyance than fun.

And downed state balance is well…obviously not balanced. TBH, if I designed this game from the start…I’d have everyone do pretty much the same thing when downed, which would be next to nothing like gears of war…except maybe cry out for help.

Maybe its just because I play other games like LoL. but is it too much to ask for a duo que option instead of simply solo que? Team que really should only be 5v5 anyway….but many of us have one good bud we play with, and simply cant get 3 other competent players who work well with us and just happen to log on always at the same time we do through out a week. So it would be nice, I know many people want it and have asked about it.

As someone who threw in the towel many months ago. I can say that the features they are just now getting around to in this blog is pretty much stuff that was expected needed at launch or short after, and it is a bit discouraging to see it only now getting worked on. However.

The game IS moving in the right direction. It is finally taking responsibility and solving current issues and seems they are not holding back or tip toeing around too many of the issues.

I think these are all good ideas to lay the foundation for the new game modes. You don’t want to release an awesome game mode that may bring back a crap ton of players, and still have the same shotty system. So these changes are important.

But yea, I wanna hear more about new game modes. Because they can pretty up this pig all they want, the core of why SPVP is not popular or successful, is because the game mode they went with (and stuck with for FAR too long imo) gets old fast…and generally is not innovative or fun. The COMBAT is fun, the game mode is boring. I’d point out that the capture the point/ticket system mode in most other games….is usually the least played mode. SO weird they chose it as their sole mode and primary focus…as almost any research would show that it only appeals to a minority.

First I mean no disrespect. But as a customer you lost months ago, along with my pvp guild who solely bought this game (over 50 players) who also have moved onto other competitive games. I have a couple questions.

1st. These changes sound good but what will you be doing to re-engage the interest of the vast amount of players you lost? Sometimes its hard to regain trust, and many have moved onto newer games or games short to come out that already have the infrastructure and features your still developing.

2nd. All the things your proposing I read as vast approved suggestions on reddit/forums during beta of your game, yet they were ignored for over a year as well as posts from your own QA pre-launch word for word suggested what your planning in these updates (some even suggested by me on your beta forums). Why did you not use these ideas and suggestions then, and why the sudden focus on spvp? Was resources an issue before launch and shortly after? Did you not think spvp was worth investing in for the first year? Do you now have new heads of development?

3rd. What is your long term goal for spvp or pvp in general in Guild wars 2. To expand upon this question. Is E-sport type events and the competitive scene something you want to build. Is mindless fun (aka smash brothers, which ironicly turned competitive) the type of design you want to go with. Do you want complex pvp (require deep knowledge just to begin playing with the 1000 combinations of rune/sigil/trait/mastertrait/utility/weapon/amulets etc) or something easier to get in and just play (like smash brothers, low learning curve…or up coming blizzard title Heroes of the Storm).

I hope non of this comes off as offensive. Non of this is meant to start a spark or throw any one under the bus or preach hate. This is just common concerns and questions going through your average person who came in early on…got troubled by the way spvp wasn’t really going anywhere fast, got fed up and left or just found something else that seemed better developed with more attention. This is a pretty large demographic of your lost player base. So having the insight on this, might help those who still hold GW2 in their head as (that game that coulda been good). I know that sounds mean but…a LOT of people view it as such. It is common consensus that believe the spvp wasn’t well enough developed on launch, and didn’t get the attention it deserved in the first 6 months (some would argue even to today). So even though your saying you’ll do the things people asked for a year and 1/2 ago NOW….and seem to be all about going full steam ahead really pushing and backing your spvp game. Theres that hesitance and mistrust laid in many of our hearts, and its difficult to even get re-invested….cause lets face it…theres lots of competition out there for games to play…and even though you don’t charge monthly, people still get “attached” to whatever game they play and feel a sense of investment, as a lot of time is spent researching and working to improve in something you want to excel at.

Anyway, its getting a bit long, but hope you read and understand I have good intentions. Hope some of this is answered, especially concerned how you plan to revive your title and how you will meet/getahead of your upcoming competition (wildstar and eqnext both boast to have excellent well supported pvp, though eqn is a bit more hush hush about it, so could all be smoke and mirrors)

Sounds like you guys have great direction now or at least are beginning to use that good feedback that many gave back in your early development. Hope you continue the road your heading down cause it sounds amazing. Just hope that it will respark interest for some who moved on, cause you have a VERY devoted fan base still who as much as they complain would love to see this game succeed. Cheers

garethh.3518:

I would rather a larger base switch before going into all these details, they are nicely written fixes for the details though, don’t get me wrong.

GW2 is balanced around extremes, you either need high power a good source of crit chance along with crit dmg (to deal viable physical dmg), if you can’t, since physical dmg stats scale so much off of each other, you will deal negiligble physical dmg and be forced into bunker or condi/half-bunk…

That is crippling GW2, the build diversity blows, no matter where the meta is, high phys dmg (scrubs hate dying in a blink of an eye), condi (everyone hates being helpless and losing to players that are waaaay worse than them) or bunk (plz god no) many people are going to be annoyed….

That’s a core issue in GW2 and won’t change with minor tweaks to balance.
If stats scaled differently, like crit dmg was bonus dmg based off of the base ability dmg (barely if at all scaling with power), then more middle of the line power specs would open up, more power/condi specs would open up, the meta would explode…

What would be great is that then the game could then move over a large chunk of the condi dmg over to physical (high dmg specs that use conditions would be dealing that high dmg partly through physical dmg since phys dmg already has good play/counter play) that would also let condi dmg better fits the cleansing in the game (a nice perc but not god-kitten necessary to stack as much as possible).

That’s the only way I see GW2 surviving after new MMOs are released…
It’s the only step I can see to allowing this shenanigans to begin to play like a real AAA MMO.

Before the game came out I suggested this suspicion that the game would suffer due to the amount of stats one could chug into one area, forcing the glass cannon or immovable object specs being the most viable ones. But much like 90% of good comments in their early beta they ignored them…… ironicly changes people made back then, they’re just NOW starting to do….guess it took the game losing 100,000+ active pvp players for them to acknowledge they werent perfect and their community wasn’t stupid. Not to sound cynical but it is what it is.

KrisHQ.4719:

Josh Davis.6015:

Well, this seems like a great place to ask!

• What runes/sigils would you like to see added to PvP?

• And for any adventurous readers, what different stat combinations on amulets?

Grouch, careful now.
Adding too many different amulets and runes/sigils might only make things worse.
Imo there are already way too many sigils and runes that are not used, so adding more just seems silly.

This.

people are under the misconception that adding more variety of amulets will allow for a higher variety of builds. While some new builds may become viable as a result, more than less it will just strengthen the builds that are already being used.

Also, its a popular belief that adding more variety of options means more viable builds. Truth is, there is already tons of options of amulets/runes/traits and yet MORE than 50% of them are unused or considered weak. There will always be just 1-3 builds that all the min/maxers and competitive players deem useful per profession. Because there will always be the best combinations…and anything that is not the best, will be considered a bad choice.

with the example of the traits, how arenanet constantly has to rebalance them and rework them, and yet despite their efforts the majority of them are never used competitively. While they definitely have made improvements, it still boils down to only a few being “good”.

So what REALLY happens when you add a ton more options and variety of choices for customization? You create nub traps.
Nub traps are choices you can make “an item, ability, etc” that a new player will choose thinking it sounds good….but in actuality is insufficient and weaker and thus considered not viable. This means most players trying to get into the game are forced to copy/paste the top players builds (thus not making choices or innovations) or make the wrong choice over and over until they stumble onto something close to what is the best, thus being discouraged for a long time.

Some of the best (competitive) games do not have tons of pre-game strategy in the form of talents/masteries. Those that do, “wow/LoL” (yes wow isn’t an esport, but for comparison) usually start consolidating them as time goes on…making people really just stick to 1 of 3 options. As lol did with their talents, and League did with its masteries. Look at the top LoL players rune pages, you’ll realize that its really just 3-5 combinations that everyone uses. Despite there being 100’s of possible combinations.

So, as arenanet gets more competitive. They will either have to make the choice to higher on 300 testers and constantly fight the uphill battle of balancing and making the 1000 masterys/traits/runes/sigils/amulets/gems all viable. Or slim things back, to a few core choices that allow each player to play a small choice of viable play styles (either way, only a few will be considered viable anyway).

Peow peow.2189:

I agree that they need to change th spvp game mode to make it more exciting

however this style of MOBA play doesn’t fit and simply copying it would make people move over to HON, DOTA LOL the many options that are solely focused on this.

Non of which are 3rd person combat games, you would be better to compare it to Smite.

Also, if that was true…everyone who played gw2’s “conquest” would quit and play Battlefield …which has a lot better options solely focused on this style of play (or 20 other games that had capture the point game modes I could start listing off….hell even LoL has one, ironicly the least played game mode on there too)

It would be unique because its Gw2’s combat system, and 3rd person. That alone would set it apart and offer an entirely new experience. The part i’m suggesting is copied is the tug of war/minion push with 2ndary objective. Its all about blowing up the enemy base (or in gw2…guild lord). It doesn’t have to use moba style features like gold gain/last hitting/items. Much like this game doesn’t, and yet it works. I’ve been preaching this as well as many others that you don’t need these to have a fun mini war style battle ground. And now one is out, and I think gw2 could really bring something new to this.

Take it or leave it. But it would be foolish to ignore how successful it would be, and how easily the profession mechanics would transfer over. Imagine raging war between two barracks trying to blow up their walls and sack their Guild lord, while rallying troops and taking out minions and fighting over 2ndary objectives to give your side the edge or make that big turn around. Take it or leave it, if gw2 doesn’t, i’m sure someone will make it for EQnext or some other title.

Just copy this and make it 3rd person.

http://www.heroesofthestorm.com/en-us/

Instant win.

(further reasoning)

Its kinda in the battleground/moba style in the since your trying to destroy the enemy base (like fofire should be like). But it doesn’t require items or rpg elements. Its all about trying to take that enemy base while killing other players/pushing your units/ doing side acheivements like gathering things to summon something to fight for your side or gain control of a cannon etc. (kinda like the side dealios in conquest).

If you had done this, your game would probably be the most popular pvp game out right now……just saying.

EDIT: and btw, including MORE interaction with npc’s is actually smart. Because your game is balanced and designed around the ability to fight npc’s…some specs are simply good at taking out tons of units. in a game mode like this, more specs would be viable other thank tank….mobile/anti-tank.

When working on a new game type i only hope that the goal is to allow for more diversity in play styles.

Current conquest is mostly catering to a variety of bunker builds.

Look at league of legends/smite(dota sorta) that have a tanky player take one lane, a high dps ranged player a high cc support player a large burst/ae nuke character and often times an assassin whos good at clearing npc’s.

These game modes offer a variety of completely different play styles every game.
The game mode also allows for multiple types of battles ranging from early on mostly solo or duo fights ending later in many 5on5 full team fights.

I’m not saying a moba game type is the most important (though i’d love to see a gw2 spin on this ever after playing reapers rumble) I’m simply saying whatever mode is put in, it needs to open doors for other styles of play that currently are not valid in the conquest mode.

I want to start by expressing that I have been very cynical towards this game in the past. I do not currently play it, but occasionally check in on downtime (and occasionally download patch’s to try the new mini games in pve, loved SAB)

Strangely i’m noticing a lot of my feedback (sometimes professionally delivered, sometimes spiteful and angry) is being acknowledged.. and change is being addressed to issues I and many others have wrote in the past.

Also i’m seeing TONS of more dev interaction and feedback. Actually acknowledging the player base and trying to work with them and be more transparent.

I just think praise is earned here, and I wanna say that i’m very pleased and amazed at how quickly you guys are trying to turn things around and giving SPVP the treatment it requires and deserves. While i’m not entirely sure you will ever get it to where I believe it should be… and I cant say i’ll ever start playing it again for sure (as I got my eye on a couple other games short to come out that will eat what little free time I have). Your efforts definitely rekindles my attention and weirdly has me looking at these forums more often.

Most importantly this is GREAT for the players who do still play and are loyal to the cause. So thanks for kicking things into gear for your fans. I really hope this plays out well and you guys get the game into a more healthy and fun state.

Anyway, I have nothing to gain from saying any of this. Just wanted to say thank you to the devs. Good luck on your efforts and hope this is just the beginning.

1. Game modes -Game modes that allow for a wider variety team other than Bunker focused gameplay. (Examp. Mobas allow for solo fights and eventually team fights requiring 5 completely different styles of players for a balanced team. Point holding maps really just need bunkers and a couple roamers. Making new game modes would allow more play style/specs to immediately be viable.

2. Reward/progression – Current reward system is obviously not very functional, as it only rewards time spent…and after awhile takes too much time between rewards. A better reward system preferably that rewards some skill play, would allow more incentive and enjoyment to log on and compete. Also, more pvp purchasable finishers/skins would increase revenue from spvp.

3. Invisible Numbers/RNG – Guild wars 2 is designed to be a competitive esport (as the company is clearly advertising and trying to develop it into). Yet the game was designed heavily with RNG (even rng upon rng examp “if you crit, you have a chance to ____” ) It also is filled with invisible numbers. When i’m watching two players compete or when i’m playing I have no idea what stats they have, what amulet, what runes, what sigils…and by the time the fight is over I still may not know. This is harmful to a competitive game because there is a lot that is not being translated. Random invisible procs also are not often translated.

RNG and Invisible stats/numbers/procs are all things that would better suite a NON competitive game that adds these sort of things to smooth out the skill curve allowing new players to have a fighting chance against much more skilled players. So a discussion on your continued efforts to change/remove these would be insightful as I’ve seen you take a number of steps already towards this goal.

so to all the people who quit 6 to 9 months ago and only check in to see if its around playable or fun. We should wait another 3-6 months?

Well two big mmo’s with pvp will prob be out by then. Not sure it will be relevant to many people. Suppose it comes down to how much its improved vs if the other games can deliver. Doubt i’ll check back in 3-6 months, but wish ya the best. Glad to see your starting to fix things for the loyal fanboys who cling to ya. Would be pretty depressing if they had to keep playing a game they didn’t enjoy for another year.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/October-15th-balance-skills-updates-preview

saw this in general forum. Thought it might be good to have it linked here. If a dev puts it here I suppose you can delete this post, but In mean time wanted to help. enjoy.

As someone who simply roams several games forums in downtime on my phone commuting. I can say I wont be coming back either way, haven’t played in months just read occasionally for perspective.

The truth is the game’s biggest issues are at its core. And the design team continues to dance around them and ignore them. I don’t believe that will change… However, if the patch was epicly huge and perhaps added a new game mode I MIGHT try it out for a day or two. But at this point highly unlikely, I even updated and downloaded to play super adventure box, and ended up being too wrapped up in other games pvp seasons to get around to it.

Short answer, wont play even if it is good….it would have to be an improvement beyond their capabilities as a team.

EDIT: I am beta testing a few other games with similar combat. I can say I think this game is way behind by that perspective and most likely is about to get left behind in the coming months without massive change. I only read this games updates on occasion for perspective, so I can give accurate comparison and feedback. Not because I plan to return.

Motoko.2875:

What? WoW PvP never came close to the popularity that GW PvP reached. GW1 PvP was easily one if the first if not the pioneer in eSport gaming. (ignore FPS for a second).

Uhm….you should google starcraft…….

Thought i’d share a bit more info.

Zodian.6597:

40 classes in PvP = balancing nightmare. Their “user created” maps look interesting though.

This is a valid concern via balance and one i’m still not sure on. But also keep in mind that gw2 classes are really like 5 classes in one (considering most the weapon trait lines promote different play styles). It really comes down to their infrastructure whether or not it will be remotely balanced or not. But only time will tell on this one…they definitely are boasting some powerful features though. And their class system is actually very unique.

Zodian.6597:

Definately one to keep your eye on. My only fear is that it’s p2p and not so well known outside of the mmorpg community, if they don’t have some big marketing push planned before launch those servers might be pretty empty. -remember firefall? yeah.

Ya the subscription instantly turned me off to it. Though I hate when people use “wow clone” etc remarks about mmos…. this one is definitely targeting the same audience with its features, art style, and p2p method. If it worked once maybe it will work again attitude. It sounds like it has a lot of promise but ya….I remember firefall. That game also sat in beta for what felt like 2 years…dunno what that trend is “claiming your in beta for eternity AFTER your big marketing push.” but it didn’t work for them.

Zodian.6597:

I was actually in the closed beta for smite like a year ago, tried so hard to like it and just couldn’t warm myself up to it. I was a pretty die hard LoL fanboy back then though.. Hope they figured out their combat system, felt like an fps moba back then.

I would advice checking it out again, I mean why not its free (or for 30 bucks have every character unlocked for eternity…not bad if your wallets not too thin). They did MASSIVE overhauls since closed beta, I tried it pax east 2012 and was turned off to it entirely. Just picked it up again cause a friend suggested it few weeks ago, and found it to be way better than I remember. visually and mechanics wise and new game modes….right now apparently they’re working on a 10v10 map. I can only imagine what that will be like. edit: OH and they have a smart incentive and queing system to keep people spread out amongst the different game modes….

But ya, that’s where most my friends are now who quit playing this. Random mobas etc, starcraft 2, beta for hearthstone…sigh, counter strike, planet side 2 stole a LOT of em, and other competitive games that are more satisfying atm.

Honestly at this point, I think the things gw2 has going for it don’t out weigh the sloppy mess of problems it has. Like many I appreciate it for what its trying to be and really like the visuals, but am annoyed with how clumsily its working towards getting to being a complete game.

Sorry for my last post being lengthy i just wanted to be as detailed as possible with my explanation. But i dont wish to bash this game and turn players away or doomsday it. I just like to take a realistic approach and compare it to its competition. This company would do well not acknowledge what its competition is doing…and take whats working and discard whats not based upon that information. Right now it doesnt feel like they are. But its very obvious the core problems with the development part of this game run deep in the way arenanet functions. And i’m not sure thats something that can/will change soon.

@mrbig I think i understand where your coming from. But using smite as the example, there is one thing it does better. Their devs listen. GW2 as you put it takes a long time to implement most anything and often times seems deaf to the communities complaints (which when no sign of them being met people leave).

Compare that to smite. Look on smites reddit, for one you’ll see a LOT of positive happy people suggesting things. But whats even more amazing (not a smite fan boy just recently looked into it) the devs constantly respond and put in changes the players are requesting. Just a few days ago someone put up a lengthy post that got a lot of attention about wanting the old targeting images because they didnt like the new one on certain characters….a week later (ok patching in that option for ya). People didnt like a certain character thematicly and many threads appeared about sun wukong.. so they removed him put in another character in its place with that kit and within a month they will be re-releasing the character with the suggested abilities and themes the players wanted the character to have. You can read through it and literally see people asking for something one week, and within a week or two…sometimes within a couple days they put it in. And lots of times they will say “you all want this…we think its bad but here ya go we’ll test it” and then release all the data regarding it, including how it effected match length, surrenders, kills etc. Also just last patch people didnt like the lack of magic items with the addition of new physical resists, they just announced in a week they’ll have a new magic resist item.

So, while the game engine and stuff may do it for you…..they have a fan base and they’re willing to work on making them happy, which is why they are showing a huge jump in players…the game is getting better everyday and no one is leaving when they feel their needs are being met. Also, the company seeing this growth just hired on 4x the employees to keep up with the demands due to the player growth.

If GW2 was ran by hirez studios……it would be in a good spot. So while their engine mechanics may not have the ceiling of oppurtunity GW2’s does…their devs and resources allow ceilings to be met where gw2’s may take years to even get close to reaching its capabilities.

Also, as to everquest. While speculation is warranted. One thing we know about everquest next, is the team is open with their playe base constantly releasing videos and taking in input, even allowing players to develop many parts of the game, including lore and world design (with hints at dungeon creation tools for the players as well as possible pvp map creation tools). So at least we know they will be involved enough to listen and respond to player’s concerns. Also! Everquest is owned by sony and published by sony. Where GW2 is created by arenanet but published by ncsoft. There is a lot more politics and over head in a company like arenanet. Basicly meaning when the developers want to change something….they dont have many people to answer to that could slow down or out right hault a feature or improvement, the way it can happen with gw2.

Not advocating for these games. Just showing examples of how the problems made by gw2 are not present in other games and why they are not. Arenanet would have to change their system of handling gw2 spvp pretty dramaticly to speed up positive change. And while you bash the devs (which …may be warranted), its hard to say cause you dont know what they want to do …vs what their bosses allow them to do. Which lets be real….they’d lose their jobs if a requested change was met with “gee, i’d love to do that for ya, but my boss says you guys arent lucrative enough to invest in…so we’re not gonna do that”.

FYI, league of legends Riot devs actually WILL say stuff like this and even call other devs changes “mistakes” and keep their jobs…i’ve also seen SOE (everquest) devs do the same, and keep their jobs. Some companies are just a lot cooler than others.

To op. I like your approach but something to keep in mind due to your “need more variety” argument.

The thing is gw2 already has TONS of variety in play styles from profession to profession. And there already is a ridiculous amount of customization option within the runes/sigils/amulet/gems. But heres the problem…90% of it goes un used. And there are usually only a couple of viable options per class.

This is not due to lack of options, its due to lack of balance. So you could add 30 new options, and still only 1-3 would be viable or recognized. So its the illusion of options..which results in creating more nub traps (choices new players can make that SEEM good but actually result in being less effective thus annoying and demoralizing new players).

So before the game can really venture out into this, what REALLY needs focus is polish on what they have. What if playing a turret engineer, bomb engineer, support engineer, power rifle engineer, etc was all viable. you could go through each profession and realize that between all the weapon and utility and trait options, there are atleast 5 play styles that are there…but only 1-2 of them work to any extent.

If they were able to make these play styles “work”. then the game would suddenly feel like you have more options.

ALSO!. more amulets is not really necessary, they restrict some for balance reasons…though if they WERE to they would need to also tone down each amulet. AKA, lower the stats each one gives in half. This would result in less insta gib and immortality builds…opening the door for more balanced builds to surface and thus more options.

It sounds simple, and it is…..its just convincing arenanet to do it.

Also things that need overhauled.

Downed state
combo fields/finishers
AOE
Visual Recognition (game suffers this in many areas)

@mrBig
A lot of core design concerns and resource management is what is causing gw2 to stay in its current state. Either the team needs more resources dedicated to it, or it needs a whole new team…maybe even the green light to go ahead and make drastic changes that would push it forward. It sounds like they are already at the point of considering these options (minus new team to my knowledge) but how soon will they release them is in question.

Also, not sure that those combat systems are “obviously” bad. That sounds more like an opinionated remark. You could argue Tekken is more fluid and dynamic than street fighter…or simple fighter games like smash brothers. Yet those have HUGE fanbases and more popular tournaments due to the fact they take their simple approach but make it easy to get into and entertaining to play.

So I would not write off those games just yet. The masses tend to flock to games that are just that (simple to get into…and FUN). Why hearthstone will probably be a success. Even counter strike is arguably simple to get into…but incredibly difficult to master. Same with league of legends, this is what allows these games to spike in popularity allowing common casuals to get in and play but still have a vibrant and successful competitive scene with clear differences in skill to your average player.

Gw2 has the opportunity to jump into this. But it requires a lot of politics within the company to make this happen. And like you said at the rate they are moving, its very likely it will fall off if future games coming out like everquest next manage to not screw things up (btw, the developers leading the pvp in everquest said they have been keeping a close watch on this games forum and even play it and are aware of the mistakes it is making and do not intend to do the same) could be fluff…but we’ll see…

Just a few in similar genre to gw2 spvp.

Everquest next is boasting ground breaking pvp, but refusing to release information so hard to say on that one. But with fully destructible environments and a GW2 style combat system allowing full customization of over 40 classes, it definitely could one-up Gw2.

Wildstar is being built around its pvp format, and thus should have an easier time balancing. Already boasts arena, battleground, and guild vs guild style pvp game modes and uses gw2 dodge and hotbar mechanics, but goes even further to add more skill shot based combat.

Smite is picking up its population (showing insane growth over the last 6 months in its open beta) and is soon to be launched next month. Features alikeness 3rd person pvp with already 7-8 game modes and adding another soon. Also has a very easy to use control mechanic with FULL skill shot combat. (does not have a dodge bar though)

“The Division” is getting some buzz as well for its hardcore pvp format….still mysterious though.

And yes there is Hearthstone, the Blizzard version of Legends of Norrath from the everquest franchise. (will no doubt be more successful as blizzard has a way of taking SOE’s ideas then making them more mainstream much like they did with WoW from Everquest). It will definitely steal some thunder from other games.

And of course the on going many major e-sport games that are planning add ons and expantion. ….league of legends, starcraft 2, counter strike, etc.

Poplolita at the end of the day, it doesn’t matter what you call anything. Guild wars 2 is 3 game modes in one package. WvW which relates highly to PVE….but are still two different games. SPVP is entirely its own entity. And so the comparison should be made of the SPVP game mode compared to other pvp game modes (the spvp side is not an mmo by your example). Because any gamer who is looking to play a competitive game and wants to dive into seriously into gw2 pvp will overlook entirely (often times not even play) the pve or even wvw side of the game (the mmo side of the game). Because those game modes are not e-sports, they are both MMORPGs.

So its simply put the SPVP game mode of capture 3 points is not as successful or popular as other pvp games (and this game mode isn’t that popular in other pvp games either I might add..gw2 is not the first to use it).

And to share my own opinion and belief…the reason spvp is NOT as successful as other pvp games is heavily tied to the fact it has ANY relation to the other 2 game’s “wvw/pve” causing split resources and focus away from the development of SPVP. (comments from developers confirms this…so not really speculation.) Further, balancing and mechanics that are unhealthy for spvp stick around due to the companies obsession of allowing pve/wvw players to cross over into spvp at their leisure and not be entirely confused. (also confirmed by devs) It was a complication someone at arenanet obviously ignored and thus here we are. (no one has stood up and taken the blame).

a bunch did, but theres still some around. Most people who are very competitive driven realized there was nothing for them here atm and went back to playing whatever other highly competitive and developed E-sport game they were playing before. I imagine if they ever get things into a healthy state some might return. But with new pvp games popping up all over the place this fall into next year….its hard to say.