Guild Wars 2

idk if its elitism. I just think a good chunk of the player base has been around so long they have forgot what its like to be new.
I see a lot of impatience
No teaching, its like a sprint to the finish.
I play a rev and I could care less about how long a fractal takes. I just want everyone to be included and feel like they matter. So I hang back, guide new players, or run back, speed boost the stragglers and then go in as a group.

I just don’t feel that this old community realizes how many new players have been brought in with HoT.
its either that
Or there just in auto mode. And have little to no awareness. Its a means to an end to get what they need and your just a number. Not exactly elitism just selfishnessISM (yes I just made a stupid word up)

Celine.6857:

You have to be an achievement point hunter to be ‘accepted’ to do a level 13 fractal? Idiotic. I’m having similar issues with raiding. Why should I spend 100s of gold kitting out a character just to try out a raid?

Always smart comparing apples and oranges.

Hints for you:
1. Read lfgs properly
2. Don’t join experienced groups if you have no clue a.k.a. you are new to the raid
3. Join training runs or
4. Make up your own lfg and search for like minded people

This will result in you being able to try out raids. Meanwhile, to have success in raids will be a completely different thing at start. I hope you differentiate here! Experienced players have practiced hours to beat the encounters and it’s obvious and just fair that they won’t carry you through it (for nothing). You have to spent the time by yourself.
(And this is the problem many players are facing. They don’t want to make an effort, fail and succeed with repeat but this is how it’s working.)

Celine.6857:

You have to be an achievement point hunter to be ‘accepted’ to do a level 13 fractal? Idiotic. I’m having similar issues with raiding. Why should I spend 100s of gold kitting out a character just to try out a raid?

Because spending the gold makes you build objectively better (and othets have already spent the gold) and when deciding between two people of unknown skill you take the one with the objectively better build.

Oxidia.8103:

Just the other day i did 80 i think jade maw for daily t4. I was with 2 of my friends. While we passed the mobs to platform with no problems, one of the pugs seemed to struggle to pass by. He died 3 times trying to get to platform. He had around 3k ap. Ok we waited. Then when he did manage to get to the boss he was insta killed by the agony. He tried again and died again. “Ar?” I asked. No reply. Then we started to kill the mobs becacause we were waiting for 15 min allready. Then i tried to vote kick him but one of my friends told me “let him be” which made me mad.

Then he finally wrote: sorry my first time here……

Having a lousy day allready i was not in the mood of carrying a person who tought he can piggy back off rest of the party for free loot. We didn’t kick him because it was not that hard to 4man it, but this is where elitistm is born, 15k ap requirementa in lfg, kicking low ap people and so on. Basicly for saving your own nervs on the place you came to relax after a day at work and from prolonging the run and failing at content that has been present for 3 years.

Op writes only one side of the story.

This… I can relate to since it clearly is a lack of AR and the piggy backer most likely knowingly join the group hoping for a free ride. Should have kicked since it has nothing to do with anything else than AR. He/she won’t be able to help and instead can make this a little more difficult than it should be. Typically if it was me and nobody wanted to kick, I would have leave and redo since it might even be faster than wasting time trying to carry. Anet clearly added the suggested AR for players to look at so they don’t go into the wrong levels. Don’t forget there’s this spot inside that let’s you check your AR against the level selected.

Omega Zoa.3859:

So my friend who has about 1.5k AP starts his own party, titled “all welcome” for a level 13 fract and is constantly getting kicked out for from his own groups that he created due to the fact of his AP score…this is unnacceptable..i do not know how this can be fixed but this is not ok. getting kicked from a level 13 fract LEVEL 13! before you say “he should do it with friends and or with a guild” what if this was another player who has no friends or a does not wish to be in a guild…is he just..outcasted from group content just because of some AP score?

Wow. That sucks. Personally, I would not kick anyone from a LFG that said “All Welcome” I mean really, who would join an LFG like that and then vote to kick someone. That is atrocious and I feel bad for you and your friend. No one should endure that. If the LFG says “All Welcome” that means, everyone should be welcome to the group to run the fractal, with no requirements. It’s baffling that your friend got kicked from the group at all, for any reason.

Now, I have read a few posts trying to justify elitism, but, when an LFG says “All Welcome” lets get something clear, if you don’t have the patience to deal with that, then the right thing to do, is not join that pug. There is no reason to kick anyone from a Pug that says “All Welcome”

If it said “Speed Run” “Experienced Only” “Know it” or something along those lines, that is one thing, but, if it says “All Welcome” then, there is no reason at all to kick someone from that group. If you are having a bad day, if your nerves are frazzled, if you simply do not have the tolerance to deal with a random pug that could be full of bads, then there is a good chance that an “All Welcome” LFG is not going to be the right kind of LFG for you, unless you really, really, love running with bads.

Personally I am stunned by this, and I am not sure if it is a growing problem, but it is a problem none the less. Not sure what the solution is tho.

There’s a lot of arrogant and inept players. You can get kicked for various reasons. AP, already a person playing same class in party, lack of AR, not knowing what to do and ignoring the team advice, etc. Only valid reason for a kick is lack of AR or ignoring the team advice that tries to be helpful. In this case lvl 13 requires no AR and if the other reason mentioned wasn’t the case, put them on ignore list and avoid those players like the plague they are. I have under 500 AP on this account and I don’t get kicked. I also don’t have HOT on this account.

Yobculture.5786:

People who want 5k+ AP for level 13 fractal are most likely mentally incapacitated.

On the other hand, in my opinion it’s not unreasonable to add a filter to your LFG if it’s content like raids (if you meet your own requirements) or T4 fractals. Don’t know about you guys but I personally hate having to carry people when I want to just do something quickly so I can get on with the rest of what I want to do for the day.

And thats fine but dont kick people just because you dont want to explain it, how else will people learn if no one tells them? The problem is you just kick people for one mistake it is rude and a form of elitism. If you dont want to teach anyone or carry anyone your just going to have to specify each time, thats no ones responsibility but your own:)

Another thing that royally ticks me off is when people make groups and everyone leaves because they want drop the pug people to invite thier friends who showed up late to the party, your wasting other peoples time, no just no.

I’ve had this week 2 players in a level 4 fractal, one was 31,7k ap and the other one a bit over 32k. They had no clue what to do, constantly dying on the laser staircase, so I asked them if they bought the accounts. Each one states that he was over 4k game hours, but never tried fractals, and were doing for the first time to squeeze the only APs they had left.

Morale of the story: AP and game time DO NOT kittenING MATTER, unless proven otherwise.

I dont mind running T1 and T2 with people with “low” (under 3K) AP, but I also usually ask them if they know the mechanics to the Fractal, I volunteer to explain it to them. Even if they suck you can usually carry them without a hassle at those levels and they’ve at least (somewhat) learned how to do the Fractal.

There’s much less leeway on this at T3-T4 however where having 1 downed player early on can make a fight very difficult or long.

To be honest of course this kind of stuff will happen. People will be people. The only thing that anet could and should do is to change how the party system work. You shouldn’t be able to get kicked out of the party if you are the one that created it. Of course, they should also make sure that you can’t AFK in the middle of the run as the party leader and make everybody carry you either.

Anyway, for you specific story you have two option. Either these people were just complete scrubs for kicking someone at level 13 or he did something wrong and didn’t realize it. I mean, I kicked people who couldn’t run the first skip on a dungeon or didn’t something so stupid that he could only be a complete noob. That said, it was always from party that I created, but people joining a group can’t know who is the party leader and rarely read the LFG description. They could just want to do an achivement, pick the first level 13 they see and don’t want to do the fractal with a player with little experience. That a bit stupid if you ask me, but that only prove that the LFG could use some work done (like in the last 3 years) and that human can be jerks.

Oxidia.8103:

Then he finally wrote: sorry my first time here……

Stupid elitist checks – gear pings, LIs, etc – don’t come out of nowhere. It’s not like most people wake up in the morning and think, “How can I be a complete jerk to strangers today?”

(But yes… those people do exist…)

Instead, all this “elitist” stuff comes from HORRIBLE experiences with people, usually many times over. Eventually you get tired of it and try to find some way to avoid it.

I’ve heard Fractal pugs are really hit or miss lately, but guildies have definitely shared stories of picking up pugs who clearly don’t have AR in high tier Fractals.

If anyone knows, would this qualify as LFG abuse under the “report” functionality? Ordinarily I’m all for letting people be kittens, but a forced takeover of an “all welcome” LFG posting seems a bit wack.

Otherwise just gotta keep rolling that LFG RNG and pray you don’t get a bunch of worthless troglodytes; a feat much more difficult than you’d think.

tbh, you really need the masteries if you want anything good

According to simulations that I’ve run, using [KING]‘s data, roughly one in 10,000 people earning 75 T4 rewards won’t see even a single ascended weapon|armor box.

The median is around 7 (meaning: half of us will see fewer than one box every 10 T4 rewards or so).

tl;dr the OP’s personal fractal data isn’t enough to suggest whether non-HoT owners are unable to get any ascended weapons/armor.

On the other hand, ANet has said at numerous times that the drop rate from actual chests is determined by the same loot table for everyone, i.e. that once you get the Master’s Chest (from completing T4), it shouldn’t matter if you own HoT or not. In other words, the fact that the OP received Master’s & Expert chests suggests that the loot is the same for HoT and non-HoT owners.

Off topic, how did the OP get their AR up to 120 or so? (I’m curious — there are all sorts of ways to complete T4 fractals with lower AR than recommended; it’s just unusual.)

Abricalio.1584:

I repeat, posting about your low HoT drop rates is irrelevant. Post if you DON’T have HoT and you do T4 fractal dailies, or if you KNOW (don’t guess) for sure what Agony Channeler or Recursive Resourcing masteries grant in bonus rewards.

Hey, I have HoT and my drop rate of asc boxes is totally fine for me!

Dungeon running was already a ‘tradition’ in GW1 and is completely legitimate.

So the answer is “Yes.”, they are legit and ethical as long as nobody is exploiting or players are getting kicked to replace them with a buyer after starting the fractal.

If you would play the game instead of posting 1000 posts in 10 hours you would’ve made those couple of masteries. Took me like a couple of days. The first mastery (gliding) literally takes 1h max. I can’t see a kittening problem. People always feel eligible to get rewarded disregarding their playstyle an if it is the kittentiest playstyle. No, you have to wake up and follow the rules of a game!

Daddicus.6128:

Each alt would fill the bar only for himself. He would fill the bar for the account to 1/3 or 1/4 (whatever the divisor is) …The alt gets the mastery at, say, 1/3, but the account bar doesn’t gain it all, gaining perhaps 1/2 or 3/4 of what the XP would have netted if not split.

Okay, I think I understand, mostly. However, there are problems with your idea, which have to do with your next point.

Daddicus.6128:

The whole point is to encourage people to play multiple alts at a time, so as to get the whole account fully-mastered, but not in such a boring fashion.

There’s an entire discussion there whether it’s a pertinent goal to encourage people to play multiple alts. Anet’s stated goal has been ‘play as you like’ which means a player could stick to a single toon if they want. Putting that aside..

You idea actually undermines your goal of encouraging people to play multiple alts. Given that any one toon can get masteries at a fraction of the XP of the current system, it encourages the player to stick to that one toon.

When they make another toon, what will they find? They have to level up some masteries again for that toon. Yes, the account may have progressed enough to unlock some of the masteries, but you’re more than likely have to work on masteries you’ve already unlocked on your other toon.

Ironically, you’re creating the grind that you’re trying to avoid.

Daddicus.6128:

Then it struck me: the reason I hated HoT so much is because I had to earn all those mastery points and XP on one character. But, I didn’t really have to; I was just taking my best-equipped and strongest character there.

As you said, you didn’t have to earn it all on one character. You didn’t even have to take your best character there. You can use multiple characters, do different parts with each of them. Every profession gives you ways to survive. EDIT: Took out mention of DS again, as it’s not pertinent to this point.

Daddicus.6128:

But, that boredom was in many ways self-imposed. I could have done several characters, like I do everything in core. I just never thought of it. And, more to the point, lots of people probably never thought of it.

This idea gives incentive for players to do exactly what I didn’t do (and may have even enjoyed).

It’s to your credit that you see the problem was self-imposed, but as I said above your proposed solution isn’t going to help with this. It’s actually going to produce the opposite effect.

Daddicus.6128:

Anyhow, the grind discussion is, as I thought it would, destroying the thread. So, I will not post any more responses to such claims. Or, for that matter any statements not related to the subject.

The thread is about whether it would be a good idea to put graduations into masteries (especially HoT masteries) such that individual characters could progress faster than the account as a whole. The standard account mastery progression would not change at all.

Unfortunately, instead of calling this thread “suggestion: graduations into masteries” you put grind into the title, dooming it to perpetuate the grind discussion. You also started your original post explicitly talking about grind. It’s no use bemoaning that the discussion you started is destroying the thread and claiming you forsaw this.

But on the subject of graduations into masteries, I personally think your idea is an attempt to get something with less effort than it currently requires. As tempting as it is to fall back on words like laziness and entitlement, I truly don’t want to inflame or derail the discussion, so let’s examine your idea and discuss why it bothers me:

Daddicus.6128:

One of the reasons it’s hard to get masteries is because you’re locked out, especially early on (gliding becomes required very early in VB). You have to earn those XP.

But, masteries are account-wide, which means they really deserve to have a high threshold of XP. If they were character-based, the XP requirement could be a lot lower.

The problem with that is that masteries by their nature deserve to be account-wide. If not, then much of their value is lost.

Why not split the difference? Allow each character to get his masteries at 1/3 of the total (or 1/4). But, give it to the rest of the account once the original XP requirement has been met, across the whole account.

Under the current system, a single mastery tier requires (A) amount of XP to fill. You are suggesting a system where, using alts, you want that same bar to fill in (A) / 3 or (A) / 4. Is my understanding correct?

Consider this: XP is the easiest part of completing masteries. It comes from everything you do and with boosters it flows in very effectively. In my own experience, a single run of DS with boosters netted me 25% of the bar in the highest mastery tiers.

I’ve finished my masteries now and frankly I can’t even remember filling them up. It went by so quickly. The mastery points were the hardest part and there are certainly plenty of discussions on making those more readily available. Further to that, there’s a feeling of satisfaction to beating that challenge. The bar was set at a certain level. You can argue whether that level is appropriate but beating it is satisfying. Asking for the level to be lowered…. not as satisfying. And the benefits are dubious, considering extra programming would be required to implement this system.

It also intrigues me that you specifically used the fractions 1/3 and 1/4. I suspect you’re imagining doing this with 3 or 4 alts. But what about players who have 20 alts? Would they only need 1/20th of the XP on each character? Where would you draw the line?
There has to be a line somewhere, or it would lead to an alts arms race where players would create as many as they can and the requirements would dwindle to almost nothing, destroying any challenge or satisfaction.

So, in response to your question:

Daddicus.6128:

The thread is about whether it would be a good idea to put graduations into masteries (especially HoT masteries) such that individual characters could progress faster than the account as a whole. The standard account mastery progression would not change at all.

No, it would not be a good idea, as you proposed it.

Daddicus.6128:

General Health.9678:

The damage is not insane.

When a non-boss can one-hit or two-hit down a player using full ascended gear, that’s insane. And, HoT has many creatures that can do that.

What does ascended gear have to do with it? Me being in full exotic berserkers isn’t going to make me in less durable than if I were in ascended berserkers. Why are you trying to face tank damage instead of using active defenses to mitigate/avoid it?

If not you specifically then whoever it is you were referring to.

Daddicus.6128:

If you don’t think they’re grindy, don’t post.

That’s not how discussion forums work. You say your thing, people say their thing. They are allowed to disagree with you.

Dante.1508:

Not enough, the enemies damages are still insane, and many parts (masteries etc) are still not solo able.

The damage is not insane. If your build can’t handle HoT then you are doing something wrong because there’s not that many people complaining about HoT mobs. Many parts (masteries) are communes so that isn’t true. The ones that are not require 2 maybe 3 people depending on builds and such. They are easily completed by asking in map chat.

Dante.1508:

in my opinion, anyone who enjoys HoT and can solo it are not really casual players to me..
The whole hot mechanics are designed to be not casual friendly.

Well as you refuse to let anyone help you despite offers and as you’ve said in the past you’ve moved on I guess you don’t want to be proven wrong. If by casual player you mean bad player then sure. HoT got harder. Casual means not serious, few hours a week, one weekend in four? Who knows, there is no definition. That doesn’t make them bad players. I’ve got a guildie I see once a week very regularly, I’m his Sunday evening GW2 session and we duo everywhere including HoT. He doesn’t have exotic or higher stuff, his gear isn’t all one thing, he doesn’t spend hours secretly practicing to impress me. And you know what, he doesn’t suck. HoT just simply isn’t as hard as you want to make it out to be.

Sardath.8524:

As for long term goals, Gw2 in general has none, except fashion.

That isn’t a GW2 goal, that is a player goal.
Other goals are the one thing you don’t like, masteries, legendaries, specialization and other collections where participation will get you the pieces, map and world complete on all toons, fractals, dungeons. No matter when you started there’s always something you can find to do.
Fashion is the worst goal, for a start it’s subjective and anyone who turns their graphics down can’t see it anyway.
Oscar Wilde said “fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months.” And who can argue with Oscar?

Sardath.8524:

Grind or no grind, the masteries have been implemented awfully. Why would I care or try to grind them after I completed all the meta events on the four maps? What’s the point in trying to get extra accessibility/qol improvements on a map I’m bored of playing? Tie this up with the immersion breaking/mobile phone wannabe games called adventures and you’ll make plenty of people upset.

MMOs are based upon repetition. GW2 is not and has never been an exception. If you can only play through events once before becoming bored of them, you are playing the wrong type of game.

If your issue is that you don’t like the HoT maps in general, then the mastery system is only an issue because it forces you to spend time in the HoT maps. But as you say, you don’t like them anyway.

I happen to like the maps, but I also dislike the mastery system in some ways. I definitely agree on adventures. I just don’t like them and have no interest in playing them. I don’t think the requirement is necessarily unreasonable as implemented, however. But I also wouldn’t mind if they added a workaround. So I’m with you there.

Where I diverge is that I appreciate how they incorporated the mastery system into the exploration of HoT. Where you simply wish to complete the events and move on, I wanted to explore until I knew the jungle through and through (I haven’t gotten there yet! But I’m making steady progress!). While I gained experience running events, I was also working toward this other goal.

Obviously, we aren’t going to see eye to eye on that. But love them or hate them, the HoT maps offer something that you can’t find in core Tyria or in any other game I’ve experienced. And I think the mastery system fits in nicely.

Having said all that, I don’t see why they need to be stingy with the mastery points. Progression is still gated behind a substantial amount of experience, and additional mastery points could still be gated behind other masteries to slow the progression a bit. Ultimately, the system could serve its role within the context of the HoT design while simultaneously making it easier for players to pick and choose which challenges they wish to pursue to earn the mastery points they need.

If I could get the mastery points I want without storyline achievements and adventures, I wouldn’t complain.

Sardath.8524:

Razor.9872:

Sardath.8524:

Grind or no grind, the masteries have been implemented awfully. Why would I care or try to grind them after I completed all the meta events on the four maps? What’s the point in trying to get extra accessibility/qol improvements on a map I’m bored of playing? Tie this up with the immersion breaking/mobile phone wannabe games called adventures and you’ll make plenty of people upset.

I don’t get it. There is no point in trying to get extra accessibility/qol improvements on a map that you are bored of playing. So why would you grind for them? They are just there for those who wish to have them and are willing to continue experiencing the jungle/raids to do so. What is the problem?

I’m not. I’ve stopped playing all the HoT maps after I’ve experienced the meta events. That’s the problem. They are gates to parts of content you already experienced. They should incentivise you to play, but they don’t.

you say ‘gate’ when actually its simply a goal. The incentive for achieving these goals is the very content you are bored of, so whats the problem?

XP boosters, food and utilities, watch the XP roll in. Do the meta, do map completion, the xp will roll in. Things are only as “grindy” as you make it.

Zoltar MacRoth.7146:

I don’t think the masteries are grindy – BUT I think your idea would make them so. I used my mesmer to do most of my masteries because he provided me with good mobility, stealth and a portal that provided insurance where I needed it.

If I had to complete the masteries your way (as I understand it) it would have been tedious, unenjoyable and very, very, very grindy.

Totally agreed with you !!!
I could play and earn all masteries with my main and favorite character , way easier to do specialization achievements later with my alts.
I don’t feel it was grind , rather the goal , reason I logged to GW2 every day and had fun.
I believe only people that want everything “NOW” , feels masteries as a grind
They are often in LA after unlocked all masteries saying in chat: " I am bored "

Sardath.8524:

Grind or no grind, the masteries have been implemented awfully. Why would I care or try to grind them after I completed all the meta events on the four maps? What’s the point in trying to get extra accessibility/qol improvements on a map I’m bored of playing? Tie this up with the immersion breaking/mobile phone wannabe games called adventures and you’ll make plenty of people upset.

I don’t get it. There is no point in trying to get extra accessibility/qol improvements on a map that you are bored of playing. So why would you grind for them? They are just there for those who wish to have them and are willing to continue experiencing the jungle/raids to do so. What is the problem?

Razor.9872:

Animism.9803:

Personally. If I’d complain about the difficulty in any way, it would be in regards to getting Mastery points. I do not find it fun to repeat story quests for all those achievements. I don’t even want to read a kitten Dulfy guide on full achievements for LS2, I would quite frankly rather not play.

It seems a bit of a joke that all the legendaries are being made with a requirement of max masteries.

But…they are legendary quality items. Being expected to go above-and-beyond the norm is the norm for legendary.

Never mind the fact that you would likely get the masteries for Legendary Crafting long before you managed to get all the resources needed to make them. When I logged on after HoT launched, I already had enough MPs to get both the Legendary Crafting and another line filled just by having played a bunch. Unless you run fractals a lot, that line doesn’t need to be filled.