Guild Wars 2

It would be nice if the TC page didn’t reset when you switched between tabs in the window too. Sometimes I buy a whole set of armor at once, and swap to the pickup tab to double check to make sure I don’t buy 2 of something. Right now that forces me to put in the search parameters again.

Hi,

I thought about creating a list of possible changes to improve the steal mechanic of the thief and hope you will add your ideas to the list.

Please be aware that the ideas in the list wont take account the changes of each other and each idea has to be looked at individualy. Only 1 or 2 of the ideas should be implemented. Otherwise stealing would become way to overpowered

I will start with some ideas and hope that you will add alot of other ideas to it

Basic:

• Reduce the cooldown from 45 to 35 seconds. (Class mechanic of thief has such a high cd compared to other classes)

• Make it possible to have more then one stolen skill (F2 to F4) and add a steal mechanic to 1 or 2 skills. The skills with steal mechanic shouldnt trigger “on steal” traits.

• Better indication of what the stolen skill does (Kasama.8941)

• Increase the base range of stealing to 1200. change the trait that does it to something else (Issues.5789)

• Put the stolen skills on F2 and change the F1 to a shadow return after stealing. (Folk.2093)

• Make steal a ground targeted AoE that steals from up to 3 targets (randomfightfan.4091)

• Increase number of stolen skills you can have at the same time (F2 – F3) and maybe add cooldowns between the use of each stored skill,
  tone down the skills for balance,
  2% faster steal recharge per trait point (instead of 1%)
  and more: please read full post for more info: long post by Auesis.7301 (3 posts long)

Traits:

• Combine some of the traits (not all that will be listed). Some give only a minor bonus.
  Long Reach – increase range,
  Serpent’s Touch – 10s poison on steal
  Sleight of Hand – 1s daze on steal (grandmaster trait. rly? thief has at least two other ways to apply daze more efficient)

• Sleight of Hand – 1s daze on steal Steal recharge 20% faster (grandmaster trait)

• Improvisation: Stealing recharges all skills of one type two types. (With only one type you’d need to have 5 skill types equipped to get a granted recharge. To get 5 types, you’d have to equip the healing signet AND the elite venom. Changing the skill to work for two types will make it viable for more builds)
  (inspired by Travlane.5948 . His idea was to only recharge skills types you have equipped. But that would be to strong because you could pick up to 4 skills with the same type.)

Stolen Skills:

Firstly, the mechanic itself:

F1: Functions as normal, however, it is now a Shadowstep. It does not cure any conditions or break stun, but it has a Shadow Return mechanic that is active for 10 seconds after the Steal. This emphasises what a steal actually is: you don’t sprint up to a target, rip something from their hands and then stare at them. This gives the option of a more elusive stealing manoeuvre for players who choose to remain at range.

F2, F3 and F4: These are now “pockets”. When the Thief uses Steal, the stolen skill is placed in to F2, then F3 and then F4 if none are used during the Stealing process. These skills last until a map change or until you are downed. If you attempt to steal more than you can carry, the Thief will dump the F4 skill, and the skills will cycle across to accommodate the new stolen skill in F2.

Example: A Thief is facing two opponents. During the fight, he steals from both. F2 gives him a Fear skill, and F3 gives him a Chill skill. While cornered, he quickly pulls out and uses the Fear skill. The Chill skill then cycles back to F2, and a subsequent steal puts the next Fear skill in F3.
That basically outlines the actual mechanical change to Steal. Now the nitty gritty:

Hit f1 to shadowstep to your target; once you do an f2 key becomes active so you can use whatever skill you stole and as an added option f1 can be a return step. This way you do get a quick heal in/out attack and it does add mobility to the thief.

just a thought since a-nets plans is too add mobility plus fight durability to the thief class.

scanz.4536:

Disappointed with this to be honest. A lot of us with ascended quivers have had to put a lot of time, effort and gold into getting one and now anyone can just go buy one with gems. Sigh, nice one ANet.

…so? They’re not taking that away from you are they?

I can’t understand this mentality. It sounds like an 8 year old kid throwing a hissy fit in a playground…

When you made your quiver that was the only thing available. Nobody said they wouldn’t add anything in the future. You had two options: wait and see, or go ahead and make it. You made it. You got what you wanted. Nobody’s taking it away from you. ANet isn’t turning your ascended into a normal skin are they? Are you suggesting that ANet should never add any content ever again, lest people might think “oh that’s nicer looking than what I have! ANet has wronged me!”. It’s not even the same skin.

Get over yourself.

DevonCarver.5370:

We don’t have one yet, but we are working on implementing something to stop corpse scouting. That’s all the info I have right now though and there is no ETA.

Giving us the ability to force-respawn dead enemies? (Having it take the same time as the “Finish Them” would sound about right)

Chopps.5047:

A hiding mesmer in a keep is extremely dangerous as he or she could portal an entire army in. Every time one of our commanders takes a keep, the first thing they order is a full sweep. This is intended behavior and lots of fun, at least for the portaling team. It sounds like you learned this lesson the hard way. Next time, do better.

I think you might want to re-read the OP – he’s not talking about a hiding mesmer, he’s talking about a dead one staying dead, waiting for a thief rez. It’s a whole different ballgame there.

Personally, I think ANet should implement something like corpse burning – if there’s a dead body, you hit “F” over it, and it’s forced to waypoint. No more corpse spying, getting rezzed through a gate, whatever.

Edit – Just noticed Aveneo’s post saying basically the same thing. GMTA. ;-)

What the dumb how did they decide on mug healing for 2k. They think we will use it defensively? I use it when I’m full hp #facepalm. This is a band aid not a fix and it’s pretty random.

Heal on mug dumb award of 2013

The Thief is likely the replacement for the Assassin because under NCSoft’s world view, they did not want Cantha in the game as they were an Asian representation. Then they jammed a Steal skill into F1 to call it a thief instead of assassin, which we basically are.

draner.5213:

4. Initiative restricts spam (this one I disagree with completely, initiative does the opposite)

I agree, initiative doesn’t restrict spam. What it does do, however, is compartmentalize weapon capabilities. Most professions don’t have the dilemma of a weapon skill being sub-par because they’re almost always going to do something more useful than auto attacking, so you might as well burn the CDs. Thief skills, on the other hand, are directly comparable since they all draw from the same resource, almost like a shared CD. This is why something like Body Shot, which would be decent for any other profession with cooldowns, is viewed very unfavorably by thieves. It is a certifiable opportunity cost in initiative that means any benefit derived from it must be directly compared to the benefit of spending a similar amount of resources using another skill.

Initiative, while a unique mechanic, ultimately makes thief playstyles and builds more repetitive and specialized. This completely different combat dynamic makes thieves more difficult to balance and balance measures they do take tend to diminish build variety, instead of building it up. Every time they try to reduce the effectiveness of a specialized tactic, the ripples of the change serve to kill one or two less specific playstyles. The end result is that the “undesirable” (according to ANet) tactics remain, if blunted, some of the only viable options to play effectively.

I hope you all know the only reason we have Steal as our class mechanic is to justify our class name right. It’s the cooldown and sporadic stolen items that need work.

I remember someone making a thread with a good idea of stealing items and saving them for later use up to a certain number could be saved on f2,f3,f4 etc.

all they have to do is make it so invis=unstompable. skill 2 should invis AND move you. wait isnt there another skill like that? oh yeah its mesmers downed skill they get invis…teleport AND a clone . we just move a lil :P fail!

First one out of my mind:

That Venom family for some reason all have a 45 seconds cooldown (other skill families have different ranges of cooldowns). Only 2 of them (Spider and Devourer) are ok with that cooldown (and one of them could do better with 40, 32 when traited). Icy and Skale should have much lower cooldowns (Skale should be around 25 seconds given how its effect is done much better with traited Spider Venom) and Basilisk Venom would give much less balancing headaches with a proper cooldown for an elite skill instead of 45 like every utility venom.

I guess the reason behind it is the “X next attacks or until 30 seconds” effect (Ranger’s Sharpening Stone is technically a Venom and has the same cooldown and mechanic), but it shouldn’t be a problem, simply make it so that new aplications of the same venom if the original one wasn’t used overwrite the old one (in fact I think that’s how it currently works with sharing venoms).

Those 45 seconds for all venoms is a design decission that makes half of the utility venoms not worth the recharge time, and the elite venom a complete headache for balancing (not only the skill, but many builds have been nerfed because of this venom being usable every 45 seconds). With a 90 – 120 seconds cooldown you could do something cool with it and properly call it an elite skill instead of the 4th utility that has powerful combos in particular builds.

I’d be thrilled if they replaced last refuge with giving us vigor for 5s on stealth. It doesn’t make sense to me that a class designed to be “evasive” for its defense has (correct me if I’m wrong) exactly one source of vigor: 8 secs of vigor when you heal from the acrobatics trait line. More please.

Humorless.1573:

[snip]
Because it is.

Vital Shot keeps up 4-5 stacks of bleeding (4s)
Ranger SB keeps up 5-6 stacks of bleeding (3s)

Haha, this is a joke. You are correct of course, but the design is a joke. Both listed as 1/2 activation time, and Vital Shot gives 1s longer bleed, one would imagine that the vital shot would keep up more stacks. One would imagine they have the same rate of fire.

More “jokes”:

• Both deal 134 dmg per hit, with the same damage coefficient – but as established Crossfire has a higher rate of fire, meaning significantly more damage.
• Not only that but Rangers’ skills are theoretically only 50% or so from their damage output, because they also get a pet.
• Edit: Crossfire also has 1200 range, but Vital Shot has 900.

Are ye laughin’ yet?

As far as I know here is what players have been noticing since the update:

About the Revealed debuff increased from 3s to 4s:

-Damage/CC output reduction (The time interval required to use our weapon-specific stealth skill -Backstab, Tactical Strike, Sneak Attack, Surprise Shot- has increased by 33%)

-The time during which we are forced to be visible has increased by 33%

-Timing awkardness (The 3s revealed debuff matched perfectly the necessary time to perform one full auto-attack chain without quickness, and 2 full auto-attack chains with quickness (the old 100% attack speed one). Now with the 4s revealed debuff it corresponds to 1,5 auto attack chain without quickness, and 2,25 auto-attack chain with the new quickness (50% atk speed))

-The effectiveness of the following traits have been reduced by 33% (since you can go into stealth 33% less often) :
>Hidden Killer (100% crit chance while in stealth)
>Hidden Assassin (Gain might for 15 seconds when you go into stealth) with which you could get 12 stacks of might in a situation where you go into stealth as soon as the revealed debuff wears off, and get out of stealth right away -2 stacks every 3 seconds for 15 seconds. Now you only get 8 stacks of might -2 stacks every 4 seconds for 15 seconds.
>Shadow Protector (When you stealth an ally or yourself, they gain regeneration for 5 seconds)
>Shadow’s Embrace (Remove one condition every 3 seconds while in stealth.)
>Infusion of Shadow (Gain 2 initiative when using a skill that stealths you.)
>Cloaked in Shadow (Going stealth blinds nearby foes)
>Patience (Regain initiative faster while in stealth.)
>Shadow’s Rejuvenation (Regenerate health while in stealth.)

-The effectiveness of the following skills/combos has been impaired:
>The black powder + heartseeker combo to gain stealth could be used twice (the combo field remains for 4 seconds, the revealed debuff lasting 3 seconds, you had enough time to do Black Powder / Heartseeker / Backstab / do whatever you want while the revealed debuff wears off, then again Heartseeker during the last pulse of the Black Powder combo field to gain another stealth. So basically 2 stealths for 12 initiative. Now with the 4s revealed debuff you can only go into stealth once with the combo, so 1 stealth for 9 ini)
>Shadow refuge (Same here, you could Shadow refuge on you + your target / Tactical Strike / do whatever you want while the 3s revealed debuff / then you would get stealth from the last pulse of the Shadow Refuge because it lasts 4 sec. Now you can’t anymore.

That’s everything I can think of right now, did I miss something ?
Do you think the devs had all that in mind when they decided to apply that 4s revealed debuff change ?

They won’t revert it as that would mean they were wrong and they can’t have that.

I just hope they compensate us for it, but also not seeing that happen any time soon…..

Generally vitality is more effective in surviving burst damage while toughness is more effective in surviving smaller but continuous damage.

For example, lets say you have 10k hp and 2k armor and you can choose between 500 vitality and 500 toughness. 500 vitality will increase your hp by 5000 and 500 toughness will reduce the damage you take by 20%.

A thief comes up and backstabs you. If you take vitality he backstabs you for 13k, but you have 15k hp so you survive with 2k hp to spare. Now if you take toughness he hits you for 10,400 damage. You’ve reduced the damage by 20% but you only have 10k hp so you die. Taking vitality means you survive the burst.

Now you’re fighting a longer fight. You take damage but heal when you can so over the course of the fight you take 30k damage. The opponent needs to deal 5k extra damage to overcome your extra health if you take vitality. However, if you take toughness you only take 80% of the damage for 24k damage. The opponent has lost 6k damage due to your toughness and this will only increase as the fight goes on while vitality will only ever mean they need to deal 5k more damage. Taking toughness here will mean you can survive longer.

Something simple like vigor on stealth, or something to fix this stealth nerf, reduce revealed time by 1s. I’d take either and be happy.

They should switch it with Hidden thief, which would like Kleptomaniac…make sense given the other minor traits.

Turrets got some buffs, but it still is pretty hard to create a build based on turrets.
You always miss out on something.

- When you skip the metal plating and such, the turrets are still too squishy (they really are).
Autotool installation is pretty crap, it heals for too little too late, but it’s on the way to the Grandmaster trait Rifled Turret barrels anyhow.

- When you skip Deployable turrets, they die of aoe aimed at you…
Deployable turrets is the best defensive trait your turret has: put it on a wall or an edge so they have to go out of their way to range-target it.

- Power Wrench is about the only turret related trait I can argue that you can really skip, even though the extra healing is the strongest healing turrets can get.
It is an awesome trait by itself, but as far as turrets go, it’s maybe the least needed (after the terribly weak Autotool Installation)

So a fully traited turret build needs as base either 20/0/30/0/20 or at least 20/0/30/0/10 to get fully optimal turrets, which seems evident in a ‘turret build’.
This is using 60 or all 70 points you have!

Are you serious about this?
No points left for defenses, player damage, utility?

Several turret builds are popping up, and of course they never use this base point allocation for turrets. Smply because no build can afford to spend this many points on turrets alone.
These builds always miss out on something, their turrets, in a turret build, are always weaker than they could be.
Even though almost every turret trait is a tad too weak, at least they are there to be taken, which is nearly impossible.

Elixir builds can get all needed traits, so can most kit builds if they don’t use too many kits. Seeing how you devs seem to hate multi-kit builds anyhow, I assume kit builds can take all the needed traits.

Solution: I see one very good spot for improvement:
let EVERY turret knockback and explode on destruction!
In other words: make accelerant-packed turrets baseline.

This frees up 20 points, and together with Power Wrench or not, you can have 20 to 30 points for personal flavor of your turret build. Just like all other builds have.

Yams.6082:

You can always restealth after the channel ends if you wanted to. Also, don’t forget that even though the channelled attack is tracking you, your opponent still needs to reselect your toon after you come out of stealth to target you again.

Re-stealth? You are operating under the assumption that you live, or after which you had already taken additional damage that your “defense” should have helped you with, yet now you are targetable for 4 seconds. That is assuming you have another stealth skill available to use or you have favorable positioning to do so (CnD).

I wish I could stand there and lazily do damage with my channel and watch my toon’s head swivel in the direction of my kind-of invisible target, completely negating the core ability and “defense” my enemy’s class was based around.

You used a particular word in your title.

I don’t think it means what you think it means.

Thieves now lost quite a bit of fluidity and feels very clunky atm.
Devs should have waited 1 more month before this nerf since culling WAS the issue, not reveled, now they’ve changes both at the same time and will not be able to accurately see the the impact of the culling removal on the thief profession due to the revealed nerf.

Also, Mug 10 point trait is still critic for over 6k. I know we’re supposed to be a bust profession but that trait is hitting harder the most backstabes…. Rly?!

Devs should fix what’s need fixing, reveal was working just fine….

I ask a dev to please tell us, why remove culling and nerf stealth in the same patch?
Why not remove culling then wait a month to see what happens and THEN nerf stealth IF needed?

Please tell us the reasons behind this “double nerf”…

Yeah, their QA testing and seeming obliviousness to problems that are very obvious is frankly the worst I think I’ve ever seen.

It’s almost like they have no structured approach to anything, they just experiment randomly and then periodically release new builds.

Rizzy.8293:

avilo.1942:

Dolan has no clue. HE just blind copy pastes what every other QQer does “omgz u gaiz be bustinz omgz cnd mug HS 2222 backstab omgz you gaiz that must work every time so ez profesion u gaiz u deseruvfe more nerf!”

It’s only the thief that is being torn apart by the developers listening to complainers right now. Every class has their uniqueness, clones, guardian/warrior being strong upfront, etc. but it’s mostly the thief that gets all the flak because some noob in WvW on his level 10 character died to a level 80 glass cannon thief burst rotation.

Lulz.

I kid you not, someone in LA said a thief could spam HS 10 times.
Im like.. really now?

I must be doing something wrong then, considering I am traited to get +3 extra int, +2 int when I stealth and even after using back stab, I can still pull off about 5 heart seekers.

And if I just open up with heart seeker thats about 6 heart seekers.

Yep. A huge part of the problem is the developers are falling for this complaining suckerplay. Most of the people that complain haven’t played thief themself and realize how squishy it is and how you cannot simply “spam” stuff.

A lot of the ones that were complaining about cloak and dagger don’t even realize if you miss 1 cloak and dagger you’re basically dead lol.

I have a thief and a guardian. They play completely different. But when I play thief, relying on stealth/evasion/dodges/mobilitywith sword + shortbow only makes me EQUIVALENT to my guardian or other people’s warriors’s damage output.

A lot of people don’t realize, while their guardian/warrior or whatever is swinging their sword, healing, and such the thief is actually evading during this time or stealthing to stay alive, and then is going through their burst rotation to equal the warrior/guard’s output…and this is only assuming you stay alive as the thief which can be difficult.

There is a reason why the thief does “burst” and it’s because it’s one of the squishiest classes, and during the time the thief is evading/stealthing we aren’t doing damage so we have to have that burst to make up for it.

Sadly, as we’ve all read and seen in the past weeks, the developers gave in to complainers that know nothing about the game, let alone the thief class, so they keep attempting to blanket nerf thieves entirely.

It’s sad.