Guild Wars 2

RE: Simplicity
Between Withdraw + Roll for Init, a quick face-turn, and Shadowstep … you can disengage rather well. Let alone tossing a quick Steal at the end, towards a grey named mob in range. This presumes PvE or most areas in WvW.
Of course, I tend to go with P/P + SB or S/P, so my mileage might differ.

@raahk
Go figure. And every time a guildie or player on my server’s map chat talks about Mesmer or Thief being OP, I scoff and say one of two words:

1. “Warrior”
2. “Guardian”

Don’t get me wrong, I see no issue with Guard having more condition clearing ability. They are the “defensive/support” fighter, after all. But that kind of utility/healing/buffing, plus steady-to-medium/high DPS is a bit insane.
And all Warrior honestly needs is a bit more sustain in PvP, i.e. the one game mode they’re hurting in. They’re already PvE Gods, and hella good in WvW.

jportell.2197:

I’m pretty sure avtr in FA runs zergs of nothing but glam mesmers and that group is a force to be reckoned with

I’d think they’ve all swapped over to Triforce, which is arguably more BA. Glambomber’s just Confusion/Blind, Tri’s rocks Conf/Reflect/Retal. It frigging melts the same kinda foolish 1-spammers G-Bomb used to.

Ryan.8367:

what mesmer is running healing power anyway? go zerker or go home

I keep a secondary set of armor that is a mix of Shaman/Apothecary. I use it for Mantra/Support build experiments, and occasionally Glamour. After all, not like full Glamour spec’s heavy on Precision, anyway. /shrug

I’ve said it for ages … if Glamour-Bombing was the “Big Problem,” all ANet’s heavy-handed selves needed to do was add an AoE target limit to Confusing Enchantments in specific.
Funny that they went all-out, and months later … introduced a set of Runes that cause
nastier Confusion than we used to toss in-house.

I’ve been mainlining Mirror for a while, mainly for an extra means to smack fools with their own projectiles. Pretty fun, if you catch a Warrior mid-Kill Shot.

@Nretep
Functionally speaking, since I do not know if it’d be easy to code in an inverse Time Warp. But overall, it’s a logical ability for Mesmers to possess, considering that our current incarnation has multiple abilities that mangle the ever-loving kitten out of space and time.

For that matter, a time-stopping power could also be a hellish amount of fun.

I’ll just repeat my response to a Perplexity thread over in the WvW Discussion section.

1. An icd is an option.
2. Lowering the applied stacks from 6/6 is also an option.
3. For that matter, transforming the confusion-on-interrupt to extra confusion damage is an option.

Honestly, I’d vote for either the second or third options. At least the second allows for AoE usage. Failing that, the third simply makes the Runes strengthen pre-existing Confusion usage. Either way, the +Confusion Duration needs patched, for sure.

Heh. I only slot stuff like Portal/Veil/TW if directly asked. My usual set’s Blink/Arcane Thievery/Random 3rd Utility/Mass Invis. Otherwise, I’m the guy introducing the (soon to be 6’ under) enemy to the wonders of Purple. Tag targets/set our guys up with Chaos Storm, Temp Curtain the not-so-stability-addicted/cripple-proof members of the other group. Let alone running a heavy interrupt/condition spec with Perplexity. I get a decent amount of bags, and help our guys wipe fools out.

I know we’ve eaten some nasty nerfs, but never think Mesmer’s some kind of useless class. Hell, the reason we get nerfed so blasted much = pure fear.

Well …

• MH Pistol (or War Fans)
• Signet of Displacement:
  Passive: Increases Toughness
  Active: Causes the Mesmer to switch places with one of their Illusions
• Manipulation: Illusionary Echo. When used, duplicates the last Illusion cast
• Glamour: Inversion. Temporarily reverses the target’s movement pattern (Who doesn’t want a control-inverter move? It’d be FUNNY)
• Phantasmal Sniper: Fires a targeted shot at the enemy. Applies Bleed/Weakness.
• Elite: Chronal Morass. Slows down time in the surrounding area. (Since we don’t have a logical “Anti-Quickness,” you figure that this ability could be set as … reduce speed of enemy movement/attack for “X” seconds.)

You’d think folk would be more afraid of the Evasion builds. Heck, any good Thief running those, will kill a fool while visible

RE: the current Perplexity argument

1. An icd is an option.
2. Lowering the applied stacks from 6/6 is also an option.
3. For that matter, transforming the confusion-on-interrupt to extra confusion damage is an option.

Honestly, I’d vote for either the second or third options. At least the second allows for AoE usage. Failing that, the third simply makes the Runes strengthen pre-existing Confusion usage. Either way, the +Confusion Duration needs patched, for sure.

MikaHR.1978:

You cant see it huh?

Well til sep. 3. legendaries were what they were supposed to be – very expensive skin.

An expensive skin that even pre-Sept 3, was said shall always count as a BiS item. I won’t argue against keeping them as such, tbh. Kinda grind for one of those, you bloody deserve it.
Which is why my theory was to keep the “unlimited” stat-swap on them, but allow for a binary stat-swap (either/or) on Ascended. That should allow some kindness on both sides of this argument, I would think.

There’s one way I could see something like that being done, without kittening off any Legendary-user:

• Whereas Legendaries have the unlimited stat-swap, one could – in theory – allow for one “alternate” stat set to be added to a given Ascended item. For example, say I started with a Celestial set, I could then work towards – and unlock – the ability to swap that OOC with Rabid.

This way, the Legendary-as-Ultimate EQ concept is still preserved, but there’s a bit of leeway with the (oft-argued) idea that Ascended EQ limits build diversity. You would also have to be very sure of what secondary combo you’d unlock … cause I can’t see an ability like that, if extant, being more than a “one-off” for each Ascended item or weapon.

evilapprentice.6379:

Advent.6193:

1. TBH, hitting an opponent’s Block should de-stealth you. If only because you have physically contacted their body. Who wouldn’t notice being struck?

When you explain to me how the shield you’re holding in your offhand “blocks” a dagger being drilled between your shoulder blades, we’ll talk about block de-stealthing. Until then, lets leave it as it is.

A fair counter, that one. However, not every “Block” is specifically linked to a Shield … and yes, that is another concern to have in mind. Some Blocks are “paranormal” in their initiation (Aegis on Guard/Mesmer, for example). Others are just Shield-in-right-place-at-right time. This would make balancing Sneak-vs-Block rather troublesome.

Another funny bit, is I put the original post on this subject up … few hours later, we get the leak of the (potential) “Sic ’Em” change-up. My only opinion on that, is that it could be a balanced factor if that trick requires that the Shout-altered attack connects. I don’t think that if it became a guaranteed auto-drop on Stealth, that that would even remotely qualify as fair or workable. Guess we gotta see exactly how that one pans out.

@Xovian/raahk/Doomdesire, etc.
As someone who runs Mesmer and Thief mainly, I am going to say one thing. If we consider Stealth – due to # of Traits effecting its usage – to be a “core” mechanic of the Thief class … should we not also consider Confusion to be a “core” mechanic of Mesmers? And we all know how that business panned out.
With that in mind, the wholesale obliteration of Trait-based Confusion is on a wholly different order than the (potential as of now) existence of one move that can directly counter Stealth. Assuming the “Sic ’Em” change requires that the pet actually manages to hit a Stealth-user, then that – and the AI/overall mobility of Ranger Pets – balances the ability.
What, precisely, balanced things such as the Blinding Befuddlement debacle? As it is now: yes, a Mesmer can get good results from a Perplexity spec … but so can multiple other classes. Let alone that that little trick only works in PvE or WvW.
(And before anyone else brings it up: those cute little anti-Stealth traps in WvW? I guarantee ~90% of those are getting used to block Veil, not anything a Thief brings to the table.)

Now, with that out of the way, I do still think that the bit on Larcenous might be rather over the top, unless other Thief weapon-spreads are looked over, and kept workable. I wonder how hard it’d be to add a direct charge mechanic – for example, if I go for FS/LS “spam,” I remove a Boon less … but if I delay-trigger LS, it continues as current?

Burnfall … what the FRELL? The list regarding Rangers is not that bad. In addition, Rangers being given a way to straight-up hunt Thieves? Seriously, man … relax a bit, OK?

Didn’t we just have you lot over, mAnvil? Guess it’s time for more Purple.

I wonder who we’re all stuck with post-reset …

Some interesting overall changes. Honestly, my only major concerns would be as follows:

• P/P on Thief – besides the overall condition vs. power-based damage issues, it’s the only weaponset without either mobility or stealth potential. I’m wondering if that’s something you guys have in mind?
• Mantras on Mesmer – Great to see some work done to bring those up, but I would tend to agree with the idea that 2 seconds of Stability may not be enough to make
  MoC get used more often.
• Elementalist – Staff buffs and Conjure-love, excellent. But, I do agree with the posts mentioning that Focus and the class’ hobbling dependance on Arcane could also use a look-see. Perhaps at a later time?

As for things I rather like:

• Overall: Condition Damage scaling being looked into? Frack. YES. I, for one, am tired of Condition builds being rather … lackluster, in PvE.
• Engineer – Oh, my. Useful Turret targeting? Stability? Less accursed RNG? Thank you. Seriously.
• Necro – Good to see Minions and Vampiric traits getting looked into. Hopefully this makes a Vampire-spec Necro a lot more feasible.
• Ranger – Pet support buffing is an interesting option. More health is, as well. As far as weapons, I’d personally be darned happy if Sword auto-chain gets that self-root removed. Sic ’Em being a stealth-counter, depends on if it does so before a stealth triggers, or afterward … the first could be interesting counterplay, the second might just be cheap.

As for Guard/Warrior … I’ll admit my knowledge of both is mostly anecdotal, since those are my non-80 professions. As such, I’ll let others step in on those.

In closing, allow me to echo the idea that it is, in fact, plenty frigging cool to see this kind of transparency from the Dev Team. Kudos.

That was one issue I forgot, Omnitek … movement speed while stealthed is a rather odd one.
Concepts like that are, honestly, the whole reason I cross-posted that bit: I’ve noticed a lot, and I mean a lot of anti-stealth or anti-thief threads over the months. That kind of thing eventually gets a guy to thinking. But, it’s like I pointed out personally, the stealth bit’s woven too far into the class to even really think about alterations, at this time.
It’d be rather like removing DS from Necros, or Clones from Mesmers. I’d say Pets from Rangers, but a lot of Ranger players honestly wish for said removal.

Anyone who plays a Thief, even part-time, and frequents the Forums has seen multiple
Threads regarding Stealth as a problem. I’m honestly going to use a post I made on a complaint thread in the WvW Forum earlier as a sort of “Go-To” response, from here on out. Especially since I’d actually like to see what other Thief players make of the idea as a whole.

Advent.6193:

Meh. You lot have reasonable complaints, RE: Stealth. I personally run Evasion-spec on my own Thief, because I’ve got a couple issues with how it was implemented. However, to “bring down” Thief Stealth, you would have to enhance either their Health, access to defensive Boons (Prot/Stability, for instance), and/or their overall Armor level. Let alone how changing Stealth impacts the Shadow Arts Traits.

The “big” issues on Thief Stealth are honestly minor:

1. TBH, hitting an opponent’s Block should de-stealth you. If only because you have physically contacted their body. Who wouldn’t notice being struck?
2. Assuming full “Troll-Mode”: it’s too easy to chain Stealth abilities. However, lowering that ability goes back to my mention of why it’s set that way on Thieves. Stealth and Evasion are the twin pillars of Thief defense. We can’t honestly “nerf” one without doing something positive to the other.
3. As many posters have mentioned in past threads of this nature, this is probably why the GW1 Assassin focused on movement, as opposed to “Ninja-Vanish!” abilities. Too hard to balance multiple Stealth routines and keep it fair for both Stealth-User and Stealth-Victim.

TL;DR:
It’s A-OK to have an issue with Stealth in specific, or the focused variant used by Thieves. But, any change to bring Stealth’s power down WILL have troublesome consequences. Especially when one considers how many Traits Thieves utilize that directly involve Stealth.

So, my question is:
Is it even remotely possible to balance Stealth as an ability, entire? Note, that I do not support the idea of nerfing any ability wholesale, sans compensation.

Meh. You lot have reasonable complaints, RE: Stealth. I personally run Evasion-spec on my own Thief, because I’ve got a couple issues with how it was implemented. However, to “bring down” Thief Stealth, you would have to enhance either their Health, access to defensive Boons (Prot/Stability, for instance), and/or their overall Armor level. Let alone how changing Stealth impacts the Shadow Arts Traits.

The “big” issues on Thief Stealth are honestly minor:

1. TBH, hitting an opponent’s Block should de-stealth you. If only because you have physically contacted their body. Who wouldn’t notice being struck?
2. Assuming full “Troll-Mode”: it’s too easy to chain Stealth abilities. However, lowering that ability goes back to my mention of why it’s set that way on Thieves. Stealth and Evasion are the twin pillars of Thief defense. We can’t honestly “nerf” one without doing something positive to the other.
3. As many posters have mentioned in past threads of this nature, this is probably why the GW1 Assassin focused on movement, as opposed to “Ninja-Vanish!” abilities. Too hard to balance multiple Stealth routines and keep it fair for both Stealth-User and Stealth-Victim.

TL;DR:
It’s A-OK to have an issue with Stealth in specific, or the focused variant used by Thieves. But, any change to bring Stealth’s power down WILL have troublesome consequences. Especially when one considers how many Traits Thieves utilize that directly involve Stealth.

They won’t admit that their Esports concept is flawed, for the same reason anyone would deny that a pet concept of theirs has failed/will fail/is failing. A rather simple, one-syllable word, known as one of Christianity’s Seven Deadly Sins. Y’know, Pride.

And, yes, lordkrall is completely right that WvW was originally treated as a “casual” game mode. However, the major issue there is that it has since expanded beyond
anything the folks behind the server-racks could have predicted. It also doesn’t help
one whit that one of the first honest changes (namely, a reasonable-scale map alteration) has met with terrible flack.

Past that, it is an absolutely fair question to ask, RE: how much frigging pull certain pvp’ers have on the game’s direction entire. I’ve said for months, that the realistic order of who gets what should be:

1. PvE
2. WvW
3. PvP

Regardless of my personal conceits or foibles, that’s the most “fair” spread of population numbers in-game, and should serve as the benchmark. However, refer back to my original comment about Pride.

@TeamBattleAxe
Finally find yer gunslinging self … get mobbed by GoMnomberries. :P

Actually, your Trait lines are more appropriate to a straight Shatter build. In general, most Condition builds fall under two “subtypes.”

1. (“Old-School” Condition Mesmer)
   Base Traits of 0/20/20/0/20, with 10 Traits free.
2. (“New-School” – best exemplified by builds like Natsu Dragneel’s Blackwater build)
   Traits run with: 20/20/30/0/0

Both kinds of “Condition build” tend to run with Staff (Yay, Winds of Chaos), and Deceptive Evasion Trait. Mainly for more Staff-clones to spam Conditions with.
The older spec usually runs a higher Condition Dmg, but is a good bit weaker to enemy Conditions. The newer versions typically use a Traited Torch for Cleansing Conflagration, to help avoid this issue.

Armor/Weapons/Trinkets are generally full Rabid. Maximum Condition Damage potential, good Precision and Toughness. The last two are important for their interaction with certain Mesmer Traits.

• Precision adds more potential Bleeds, via Sharper Images.
• Toughness adds not only in-combat durability, but syncs with Chaotic Transference and/or Superior Runes of the Undead to add more Condition Dmg.

Note that there are other potential options, but they’re not as often used. Hope that helps you out

Note also that a Condition spec tends to kill targets slower than a Phantasm or Shatter
build, due to Conditions needing time to pile up on your target. Another reason for the generally high Chaos.

The ICD heavily punishes your potential stacks via Blind → Confusion chaining. You figure, we used to be able to plant an extra stack of Confu on any target effected by Dazzling Glamours. Now, not so much.

I still want Glicko to quit trolling, and hand me a FC/ET/AR matchup. C’mon, Glicko!

So, where’s this stream “maybe” being held at? Seems I may wish to gate-crash, with a certain Science-Thieving Asura.

I’d have to say no. Mainly because -as mentioned earlier by others in this thread- it wouldn’t be that hard to add a means of gaining all pertinent Ascended EQ in WvW.
In addition, it seems that some of the “yea” voters have forgotten how much a part
player skill can play in WvW. It is definitely doable that a white-green geared uplevel can kill a fully tricked-out, Legendary-brandishing 80. On a larger scale, a co-ordinated group of the same kinds of upleveled players can drop a group of “true” 80’s.

As such, it seems more to me, that:

1. Like any MMO-maker, ANet’s eating crow on a lot of their pre-game hype.
2. A good chunk of this, is down to human nature. The oft-mentioned Skinner Box, while not a “fun” concept, is a prime motivator for many.
3. As much as I’ll call our Devs on things I feel are done wrongly -(NA League specs come to mind, immediately. What’s so hard about breaking 24 into 3 sets of 8?)- I can honestly somewhat empathize with them. It’s gotta be a hard sell to try to please two diametrically opposed mindsets such as “grinder” and “non-grinder.”

It is an option, glenndevis. Another idea’s to drop 10 from Illusions (keep Dazzling Glamours, drop Blinding Befuddlement’s nerfed self …), add that 10 to Inspiration for Warden’s Feedback. That extra Reflection’ll help you and your group versus projectile-spammers.

As far as Glamour/Perplexity abuse, I’ve personally run a 20/0/30/0/20 setup, using Bountiful/Chaotic Interruption. It’s a bit more durable if I’m caught solo, but yes, your
Glamour timing does suffer somewhat.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Though, I’d consider condition builds intermediate rather than advanced.

I don’t know about that last part, Chaos. Only because most of our conditions are random. (Presuming a Staff-heavy Condition-mesmer.) Bleed via Sharper Images, Confusion, and the Torment from Scepter are the only damaging Conditions we directly control.
Compare this to the Condition “heavy-hitters” (Engi and Necro), they easily toss and upkeep more Conditions. If one were to rate classes by Condition “difficulty,” we’d probably have a list like so:

[Assume increasing difficulty of running a “pure” Condi-spec.]

• Necro/Engi
• Ranger
• Thief
• Mesmer
• Warrior
• Elementalist
• Guardian

I’d probably swap Mes and Warr, if Warr’s using Perplexity. Buttload of Bleed/ranged Torment (that isn’t linked to a block)/easy access to Confusion. But, YMMV.

TeamBattleAxe.3901:

Solstice.1097:

CornChips.5392:

I for one am very pleased with the turn around of my server. Great job AR!

+1 glad to see you guys show up this week and keep things competitive! i hope your trend continues

Actually, I’d like to extend that sentiment to all three servers. With leagues coming up, many people chose to take the easy route and transfer to other servers that were in better position to place highly. Those that stayed behind to represent and fight for AR/FC/GoM have my full respect. Thanks for playing hard and not giving up on your server.

Cheers!

We won’t talk about that league silliness. Why they wouldn’t just go 3 sets of 8 for our 24 servers … it’s beyond me. Whatever, I’ll still shred on fools.

I run Celestial on trinkets, and swap out armour/weapons as needed. It’s worked acceptably well for me, at least. I forget whom, but one of ours on the forums ran numbers regarding Celestial vs Zerker vs Mixed. IIRC, full Celestial wasn’t something you want to do, but Mixed sets tend to not be too shabby.

My only slight argument is in regards to Empowered Illusions. As it is, that allows for different ways to craft a Phantasm-heavy build. The only problem, is that it stacks with PS. Otherwise, you’re absolutely right in my opinion.

RE: Danikat
I’d have to agree that this would be a good “middle ground.”

My “current” Mix-n-Match alts …

Mesmer:

• Radiant Shoulders/Gloves
• WvW Apprentice Cowl (unshown)
• Masquerade Rainments
• Karma Temple Boots
• AC Pants

Elementalist:

• Exalted Cowl
• TA Chest/Leg
• Cultural Shoulders/Boots
• Feathered Gloves

dirtyoldgoat.5496:

Two Maidens, One Chalice (TMOC)

Between that guild name, and your name … lol.

Cat on Fire [BRB]
Lol Charr [LOL]

I’m convinced our guys are getting tempted by that accursed Box. I go to sleep with us 2k under GoM, wake up … we’re 6 under? Fergs, I thought we were going to defeat the GoMnomberry legions this week?

In seriousness, though – close frigging matchup. Now that I’m done levelling my Ranger, I’d better bring butterflies or bullets for ya’ll.

If nothing else, I’ll +1 ChillRuption. I’ve played around with a similar setup, and it’s nasty for small group fights.

I’d say stick with a group as an uplevel. Mainly since you:

1. Are still learning the class
2. Don’t have all of your skills unlocked yet.

An uplevel can kill an 80, but it takes a good knowledge of your class. Past that, focus on Vit/Toughness EQ for a while, it’ll make you a bit harder to take down.
(Although, IIRC, Condition Damage upscales reasonably well … so Carrion builds are an option, if you’re Condi-specced.)

I typically run: 0/20/0/20/30, Mistform/Sig of Air/Sig of Water, FGS for Elite. EQ’s a combo of Cleric/Knight/Valkyrie. Depending on the situation, utilities/elite/weapons swap around. I prefer D/D or Staff, however.

Mesmer starts to get a lot more fun ~ 40. Then you can begin picking up the Master Traits. For example, Deceptive Evasion (Dueling X) will really help with survivability and clone generation.
As for Thief, they’re plenty squishy, but can also be a lot of fun. Even with 5(almost 6) level 80’s, I definitely use mine as a #2 character. (I won’t lie, the Mesmer’s #1.)

At this point, we may as well “adopt” DR and AR. Guess they’d be the “Cousins?”

You lot are beginning to tempt me … and I’m usually a secretive mofo.

Keep the armor, if you’re a high-Chaos Condi-build. Your goal’s less to “tank,” and more to sling nasty DoT on fools. My own spec runs with ~2650-2700 Armor, and Mesmer’s got a lot of ways to avoid damage. Not to mention, assuming full-Rabid EQ, you’re packing a good enough crit rate for Sharper Images to proc regularily.. Lowering that, lowers your proc’ed Bleeds, and thus some of your Condition DPS.
Unlike a Power-DPS build, we don’t gain extra damage/DoT from +crit damage, so a 45-50% crit rate is plenty. Although an option I used to use was Rampager Weapons, for a bit of extra Power on straight hits, like -say- iWarlock.

Well, once the Superior Speed set’s 6/6 gets fixed, that’ll be a +25% boost, without using one’s heal. Current price’s about what Air/Centaur used to run for. Failing that, the Traveler’s set isn’t half bad, but are almost as pricey as Divinity.
As much as I: 1.) Main a Mesmer, and 2.) Definitely understand the wish for a “speed utility,” the fact is: 3.) It’s probably never happening, since folk are kitten -out scared of Mesmers, as a whole.

I’d have to say that -while some reining in needed to be done- the current fraction is a bit overkill. Here’s the thing, if you look at most in-game “nerfs,” we can generally say the same thing. It’s one thing to go “Hmmm, there’s a lotta Karma runnin around out there, we need to lower it a bit.” However, an almost 90% factor isn’t “a bit,” it’s a crapload.

The only thing I can -sans tinfoil hat- think, is that they might be fine-tuning exactly how far down they want the Karma gain ratio to go. If that’s the case, we should see
some increase in later months. As it is now … between the current gain-rate and this game’s obsession with RNG, I don’t honestly know if I care to bother with that Bifrost I wanted to put on my Mesmer. Meh. I probably still will, since it’d be the one piece of his kit that won’t become invalid due to future nerfage.

I may as well be funny with these darn topic titles. Anyway … Gunslinger Week, eh?

@Decklan
I’ve been saying that for months … but it’s not as if they’ll listen worth kitten. Fact is, the tiniest minority of this game’s players have a disproportionate say as in what gets buffed or nerfed. This would be frigging fine, except that said minority gets into snit-fits over most anything extant in-game. Which bleeds over and frigging well shags the PvE/WvW communities.
Hell, I mainline Condition or Condition-tank specs … how do you think I feel?