Guild Wars 2

• On kill Sigils:
  Info: On kill Sigils activate on killing a foe for a special effect.
  Dual Wielding: On kill Sigils don’t stack.
  List of the Sigils:
  - Sigil of Stamina [endurance is refilled on kill]
  - Sigil of Restoration [heals on kill]
  - Sigil of Speed [gain Swiftness for 5 / 7 / 10 seconds on kill]

• Charging Sigils:
  Info: Charging Sigils gain charges on kill, activating a special effect on reaching 26 charges, loosing all charges on activation or when downed.
  Dual Wielding: Charging Sigils stack if they are identical (giving 2 charges), different Charging Sigils don’t stack and the main hand Sigil gains the charge.
  List of the Sigils:
  - Sigil of Conjuration [invulnerability for 3 / 4 / 5 seconds]
  - Sigil of Sanctuary [invulnerability for 3 / 4 / 5 seconds]
  - Sigil of Demon Summoning [summon a fleshreaver. ]

• On critical hit Sigils:
  Info: On crit Sigils have a chance to activate a special effect on critical strikes.
  Dual Wielding: On crit Sigils stack multiplicatively in chance.
  List of the Sigils:
  - Sigil of Air [10% / 20% / 30% chance to cause a lightning strike ; 5 sec CD]
  - Sigil of Blood [10% / 20% / 30% chance to steal life ; 2 sec CD]
  - Sigil of Earth [30% / 45% / 60% chance to do a 3 / 4 / 5 seconds to cause bleed]
  - Sigil of Fire [10% / 20% / 30% chance to cause flame blast (AoE) ; 5 sec CD]
  - Sigil of Frailty [10% / 20% / 30% chance to cause vulnerability for 10 seconds]
  - Sigil of Ice [10% / 20% / 30% chance to cause a 2 seconds freeze ; 10 sec CD]
  - Sigil of Strength [10% / 20% / 30% chance to apply might for 5 / 7 / 10 seconds]
  - Sigil of Purity [60% chance to remove a condition ; 10 sec CD]
  - Sigil of Nullification [60% chance to remove a boon ; 10 sec CD]
  - Sigil of Rage [10% chance to gain quickness for 1 / 2 / 3 seconds ; 45 sec CD]
  - Sigil of Water [10% / 30% / 30% chance to Heal nearby allies ; 10 sec CD]

• On weapon swap Sigils:
  Info: Weapon swap Sigils activate on swapping weapons in combat for a special effect.
  Dual Wielding: Weapon Swap Sigils don’t stack. If two different Weapon swap Sigils are used, only the Sigil on the offhand weapon will trigger.
  List of the Sigils:
  - Sigil of Intelligence [100 % critchance on next attack ; 9 sec CD]
  - Sigil of Battle [gain 2 / 3 stacks of might for 20 seconds ; 9 sec CD]
  - Sigil of Doom [apply poison for 3 / 4 / 5 seconds on next attack ; 9 sec CD]
  - Sigil of Energy [gain 10% / 25% / 50% endurance ; 9 sec CD]
  - Sigil of Geomancy [apply bleed to nearby foes for 3 / 5 / 7 seconds ; 9 sec CD]
  - Sigil of Hydromancy [freeze nearby foes for 1 / 2 / 3 seconds ; 9 sec CD]
  - Sigil of Leeching [steal health on next attack ; 9 sec CD]

• Additional Information:
  - Charging and Stacking Sigils can be used together.
  - On crit Sigils proc on all skills, no matter on which weapon the Sigil is.
  - Proc Sigils share Cool Downs (Crit Sigils and Weapon swap Sigils), even if they don’t have one.

For feedback and corrections please send me a PM.

• Permanent stat bonus Sigils:
  Info: Stat bonus Sigils increase the effectiveness for the skills associated with the weapon the Sigil is on, without further requirement.
  Dual Wielding: Two Stat Bonus Sigils have the same effect as one, but on all Weapon skills. Using only one Sigil gives the bonus only to the skills relatet to the weapon the Sigil is on (1-3 for the main hand, 4-5 for the offhand).
  List of the Sigils:
  - Sigil of Accuracy [increases critical chance by 1% / 3% / 5%]
  - Sigil of Force [increases damage by 1% / 3% / 5%]

• Stacking Sigils:
  Info: Stacking Sigils give a “stack” on killing a foe, which increases a stat by a certain amount until you get downed or log off. Caps at 25 stacks.
  Dual Wielding: Stacking Sigils stack if they are identical (giving two stacks on kill), different Stacking Sigils don’t stack and the main hand Sigil gets a stack.
  List of the Sigils:
  - Sigil of Bloodlust [+ 5 / 7 / 10 power per stack]
  - Sigil of Corruption [+ 5 / 7 / 10 condition damage per stack]
  - Sigil of Life [+ 7 / 10 healing per stack]
  - Sigil of Luck [+ 0.2% / 0.4% / 0.6% magic find per stack]
  - Sigil of Perception [+ 7 / 10 precision per stack]

• Condition Duration Sigils:
  Info: Condition Duration Sigils increase the duration of a certain condition type applied by your character.
  Dual Wielding: Condition Duration Sigils stack additively.
  List of the Sigils:
  - Sigil of Agony [increases bleed duration by 5% / 7% / 10%]
  - Sigil of Chilling [increases frozen duration by 5% / 10% / 20%]
  - Sigil of Debility [increases weakness duration by 5% / 7% / 10%]
  - Sigil of Hobbling [increases cripple duration by 5% / 7% / 10%]
  - Sigil of Paralyzation [increases stun duration by 5% / 7% / 10%]
  - Sigil of Peril [increases vulnerability duration by 5% / 7% / 10%]
  - Sigil of Smoldering [increases burning duration by 5% / 7% / 10%]
  - Sigil of Venom [increases poison duration by 5% / 7% / 10%]

• Damage versus foe Sigils:
  Info: Damage versus foe Sigils increase the damage done to a specific type of enemy (or enemies under a specific effect).
  Dual Wielding: Two Damage versus foe Sigils have the same effect as one, but on all Weapon skills. Using only one Sigil gives the bonus only to the skills relatet to the weapon the Sigil is on (1-3 for the main hand, 4-5 for the offhand).
  List of the Sigils:
  - Sigil of Centaur Slaying [+ 3% / 5% / 10% damage vs Centaurs]
  - Sigil of Destroyer Slaying [+ 3% / 5% / 10% damage vs Destroyer]
  - Sigil of Demon Slaying [+ 3% / 5% / 10% damage vs Elementals]
  - Sigil of Elemental Slaying [+ 3% / 5% / 10% damage vs Elementals]
  - Sigil of Icebrood Slaying [+ 3% / 5% / 10% damage vs Icebrood]
  - Sigil of Impact [+ 3% / 5% / 10% damage vs stunned or knocked down foes]
  - Sigil of Justice [+ 3% / 5% / 10% damage vs Outlaws]
  - Sigil of Ogre Slaying [+ 3% / 5% / 10% damage vs Ogres]
  - Sigil of Grawl Slaying [+ 3% / 5% / 10% damage vs Grawl]
  - Sigil of Ghost Slaying [+ 3% / 5% / 10% damage vs Ghosts]
  - Sigil of Dreams [+ 3% / 5% / 10% damage vs Nightmare Court]
  - Sigil of Sorrow [+ 3% / 5% / 10% damage vs Dredge]
  - Sigil of Seeking [+ 3% / 5% / 10% damage vs Inquest]
  - Sigil of Serpent Slaying [+ 3% / 5% / 10% damage vs Krait]
  - Sigil of Smothering [+ 3% / 5% / 10% damage vs Flame Legion]
  - Sigil of Undead Slaying [+ 3% / 5% / 10% damage vs Undead]
  - Sigil of Wrath [+ 3% / 5% / 10% damage vs Sons of Svanir]

Stiv.1820:

Something is missing from this because I use 2x sigils of Agony and they are stacking. I get 20% bleed duration because with my runes and traits it puts me exactly at 75% bleed duration with no food and I have 3 extra ticks on my 4 second vital shot bleed which is 75%.

Thanks, i overhauled it.

mikmoo.7908:

I have Sigil of Bloodlust main hand dagger and Sigil of Corruption off hand
Charging and stacking sigils can be used together.
- curious if this is semantics…yes, they can be used together, but as stated above, they will not stack together.

Bloodlust and Corruption are both stacking Sigils, therefore don’t work together.

Charging Sigils:
Conjuration
Sanctuary
Demon Summoning

1. Stacking of Sigils:
- Stat Bonuses only work for the weapon skills acquired by the weapon the Sigil is on.
Ex.: 2 Sigil of Force [+5 % Damage] give +5 % Damage for all Skills, not +10 %, while one Sigil of Force gives only +5 % damage for the skills acquired by the weapon it’s on.
- Condition Duration Sigils stack additively.
Ex.: 2 Sigils of Agony [10 % increased bleed duration] will increase bleeds by 20 %.
- On Crit Runes Stack multiplicatively.
Ex.: 2 Major Sigils of Fire [20 % Chance on Crit] will have a 36 % Chance to trigger the Effect.
- Stacking Sigils stack if they are the same, different Stacking Sigils don’t stack and the main hand stack bonus is given.
- Charging Sigils stack if they are the same, different Charging Sigils don’t stack and the main hand Sigil gains the charge.
- Charging and Stacking Sigils can be used together.

2. On Crit Sigil trigger:
- On Crit Sigils work for all skills, no matter on which weapon they are.
Ex.: Sigil of Air works for mainhand skills while being on the offhand Weapon and vice versa

3. Sigil Cool Downs:
- Sigils share Cool Downs.
Ex.: Sigil of Rage [45 Sec CD] will prevent Sigil of Air [5 Sec CD] from activating for 45 Seconds after triggering.
- Sigil Cool Downs don’t affect passive Sigil bonuses.
Ex.: Sigil of Rage [45 Sec CD] doesn’t block off Sigil of Force [+5 % damage] when going on CD.

4. They are called Sigils.

Source: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sigil and Player Feedback

A direct damage specced Thief using Pistol/Pistol just isn’t effective since he can only use Unload spam for damage, which is as easily dodged as a Dagger/Dagger Condition Thief only being able to spam LDB.

The limitation is already there.

But atm, theres a further limitation in place.
The limitation of Condition Thieves using Pistol/Pistol getting a useless dual skill with Unload, and the Direct Damage Thieves getting a useless dual skill with LDB.
That already cuts the skillbar of these sets to 4 skills (or 1 skill for the oppsite spec).

Can this be fixes by giving all skills both, con and direct damage?
Absolutely not.
You can’t give one skill a nasty bleed and a high direct damage component.
Sure, a direct damage Thief wouldn’t do much damage with the bleeds, but still, it’s a condition on the enemy, which can cause all sorts of problems with limited condition removals (in numbers of conditions) and condition stacking as well as with Traits (increased dmg if the enemy has a condition comes to mind).
Also a condition Thief would probably do to much damage with a hybrid attack since it’s not like they don’t have power and the base direct damage value has to be also reasonably high to make it viable for direct damage Thieves in addition to the great Condition damage on everything.

So there are different three solutions:

1) Spec Specific Weapon sets:
Best examples: Pistol/Pistol getting reworked to fit Condition Thieves more. Changing Unload to a Condition Damage skill (applying bleeds and burn for example).
Dagger/Dagger reworked to fit direct damage Thieves more. Changing LDB to a direct Damage skill (removing the bleed, adding more base damage and power scaling or vulnerability).

2) Hybrid Skills:
Everything gets tagged on a condition and a reasonable direct damage.
To prevent it from being overpowered, both would have to be weak, leaving both direct Damage and Condition Thieves underpowered, creating only one viable spec, the hybrid Thief, which can do both conditions and direct damage, but neither good.

3) Hybrid Weapon Sets:
The way it is now.
Every weapon set can be used more or less effectively with every spec, while only half the skill bar is effective, leaving every Thief with 1 to 3 core (viable) skills, which are used all the time (giving the impression of spamming), while the rest of the skills would actually hurt the Thief if activated because of the Initative System (subpar skills building up global CD [consuming Initiative], reducing the amount of effective [viable] skills used), leaving them to be never used.

My conclusion:

The Spec specific Weapon sets would actually be the solution with the least limitations in play and the most skill vareity.

No half skill bars, no subpar hybrid skills and way more skill vareity (look a con and direct damage skill, look, another one, and another, and another…) sounds, at least to me, better than the other solutions, even if it means some specs will be even less effective with some weapons than they are now already.
But since Unload and LDB spam aren’t viable in high play anyway (dodging) and pretty boring to play and to play against while requiring absolutely zero skill to play, why endure so much sacrifices just to keep tham?
It would also be the least work (design and balance wise) to only rework these “out of place” dual skills, to fit the canon of the rest of the appropriate set.

__
I didn’t wrote that just to give you a TL:DR afterwards.
If you are interested in this debate, read it.

Tulisin.6945:

Instead of streamlining, I’d rather see more synergy added to areas that are lacking. Back stab, for instance, should have some kind of condition component.

I don’t get why everybody is just hammering on Backstab (or Daggers in general, except LDB) for not having con damage, but not on the con dmg attacks for being terrible for direct dmg Thieves.

What is with the Pistol Auto attack? What with the Pistol Stealth attack? Why does nobody care about LDB being utterly aweful for direct dmg Thieves?

I think we need those “Condition Weapon-” and “Direct Damage Weapon-” sets, or everything is a bad hybrid, or only used by half of it’s potential.

People cry about Thieves using only a very few number of skills (spam x), but what else should they do?

A condition Thief using Daggers can only use Death Blossom to do good damage.
A condition Thief using Pistols can only use Pistol AA/Stealth attack to do good damage.

Just as well as a direct damage Thief using Daggers can only use HS and Backstab for good damage.
And a direct damage Thief using Pistols can only use Unload for good dmage.

Everything else is utility (only used in specific situations) or just useless, depending on the spec.

I would prefer a Direct Damage Thief being able to use all his Dagger skills, just as much as i would prefer a Condition Thief being able to use all his Pistol skills.

Now you can argue that that would actually limit Thiefes to weapons, depending on the spec.
While that is true, it actually already is the case to be honestly.

[I hit the cap once again, read further on next post]

Poorest markted manipulation I’ve ever seen.

iSinner.4285:

Scootabuser.4915:

iSinner.4285:

It is not about the warrior, it is about all other classes that dont have cooldowns on similar traits, while thieves have.

Your comparing the classes too literally, classes aren’t equal, deal with it.

Why? I’m dealing with it 2 months already, and i dont understand why i, and all others, have to deal with it. There is no reason for that, at all.
PS You’re, not “your”.

Let me give you a example, a very simple learning one.

In this example, there are 2 classes, with 1 attack, a set attack speed, and one Trait/Passive (T/P).

Class A does 100 damage per attack, attacking once per second, and has a T/P that speeds up attack speed by 50 %.

Class B does 25 damage per attack, attacking twice per second, and has a T/P that speeds up attack speed by 300 %.

Now you can’t go ahead and say “Class B’s Passive is ridiculous, it’s 6 times as strong as A’s and therefore OP (and B is ALREADY attacking faster than A)”, since it’s actually what makes them “equal”.

Of course balance is SO much more complex.
Just think about all the variables with other passives taken, passives not taken, synergies, items, different skills…
Also you don’t want to create perfectly equal classes, but each one with different strengths and weaknesses, and them being in relation to each other balanced.

Most people don’t get all the factors playing a role, and how a even bigger picture is needed to compare different classes/characters.

You can’t just say class A has this passive, and B has this, and B’s is stronger or as well as A’s attack is stronger, or B’s attack speed is OP.

One example for judgement without differentiation even within one class is the QQ about backstab, and the change/nerf suggestions for that particular skill, while backstab is perfectly fine, but other numbers over the top (when all added up).

Let’s take A, and give him a passive that increases Attack Damage by 300 %.

That passive would outperform both other passives of A and B.
But that doesn’t mean A’s attack dmg has to be tuned down, because somebody got hit for 400 dmg.

But that’s what the QQ’ers will say.

“Nerf A’s attack damage, i got hit for 400 dmg”.

And once that is done, A’s attack speed trait is useless, or more to the point, his actual Attack Damage is UP, as well as all amplifiers thru a third source.

And in a similar situation is the Thief right now.

He has this “one” Trait which is over the top (the sum of all amplifiers), while everything else is actually to weak (since he is balanced around that sum – while that sum is still to strong).

Now ANet can’t go ahead and just nerf the Attack (Backstab), instead of nerfing that one to strong trait (the sum, or one/all things leading to the sum) and buffing all to weak traits to compensate, or the class would vanish due to having nothing left.

Thief is not OP, it’s actually quite the opposite.
There are just some factors, variables, or as i call them, ampliefiers over the top. Or more to the point, every amplifier is fine for it’s own, but the possible sum, amplifying a specific attack, results in a to powerful instrument.

Let’s hope Anet knows how to do that job right.

ASP.8093:

Would a better vulnerability-spreading trait break thieves? I don’t think so. But it’s really pointless to play “Warrior gets this, thieves get that” to prove it, instead of talking about how the classes behave as a whole.

Thats exactly what i just typed into my edit as you were typing this.

As said above, i think many cases are compareable, or, how you also said, there isn’t a reason to not buff that on Thieves, since it wouldn’t make them to strong, but just get them on par.

All in the sense of the big balance picture.

I wrote this exactly not out of the “my class has nothing, and everybody is OP” QQ view, but out of the view of someone knowing a thing about balancing.

I asked Anet for statistics and numbers already, since i need a ton of data to proof my theory about the Thief actually being to weak while also suffering from a serious lack of build diversity (leading to annoying gimick builds, since there is nothing else).

But i guess that won’t happen any time soon

Scootabuser.4915:

The cooldowns are on the thief abilities because thieves can easily and often do specc into precision giving them 60%+ crit chance. The cooldowns exist because thieves SYNERGIZE better with on crit effects.

First of, thats just not true. How do you get to the conclusion that other classes have a harder time getting crit chance?

Every class can trait for precision and get Berserker Gear. I really don’t get your point how Thieves have easier access.
And as we see, with the Thief having so few crit traits, and the few ones even having cooldowns, Thief is probably the class with the least synergy with crits.

Besides that, since when is synergy in a Profession a bad thing?

ASP.8093:

Daggers have a higher attack rate than Sword. Cooldowns on the crit procs seem like an attempt to balance the two weapons.
Also this has an effect on Pistol Whip and Unload.

This makes totally sense.. when we compare Pistol Whip and Unload with Hundred Blades then.. wait wut!?

And now don’t tell me it’s because of the Initative system.
Spamming abilities on a Thief is already extremely uneffective since it’s so easy to avoid.
One dodge and a spamming Thief has blown his whole Initative into the air, and all his abilities go on global Cool Down.
No offense, no defense, no escape.

There’s no need to “balance” that further by crippling the whole profession with cool downs everywhere.

Whats the point then of the Initative system? Just give the Thief Cool Downs directly then, seriously.
Make him just another “roll your head over the numbers one to five” class, no thinking needed, no complains given.

I’m sick of the Thief being crippled by every feature he has.
First the features make him actually harder to play or involving more thinking, and then other things are also tuned down to “prevent a exploitation” of the feature by spamming certain abilities (even tho the exploitation is less effective than playing right), which also effects people playing the Thief how he is supposed to be played – doing the right (most effective) thing, in the right moment.

And then, after all that, the idiots still cry that Thieves are to strong, just because stealthy glass cannons are pubstompers – provoking further nerfs.

Just give us Cool Downs, and buff our Traits to be on par with other Professions.
Further,
Remove “Pistol Whip” from the game, and reintroduce it as “Fifty Blades”.
Rename “Backstab” to “Surprise Tickle”, which gives the Enemy the Fury boon.
And last but not least, add an 3 second self Daze after casting “Leaping Death Blossom”, in which it plays a animation of the Thief puking all over the place.

//Edit:

I’m not exactly with the OP here.

You can’t compare stuff directly between classes, and it’s not about “fairness”, it’s about balance – and that is a greater picture.

But fact is, over all, the Thief is so incredible lackluster in playstyles and roles, it’s not even funny.
We have (had) 2 viable, even a little bit to strong specs, thats it.
One was already killed, not balanced, killed.
Now only the gimmick backstabber is left (and maybe the LDB spammer, but come on, that con Thieves are a joke against people who can press dodge).

Thieves don’t all play backstabber because it’s OP, they play it because it’s the only thing on par with other professions, but they love the Theme and core playstyle of the profession to much to change it, or got already to invested in their character.

//To clarify, not backstab is to strong, but all the amplyfiers for it combined are. Don’t again cripple all the Thieves playing normally by nerfing or changing the fine core skill (this time backstab, last time pistol whip), just because some people exploit it by sacrificing everything to get every single amplifier for it (in the latest case for one stupid hit every 45 – 60 seconds)//

Thieves are subpar, get it finally, and watch the whole picture, without all the bias of getting gibbed by one of these builds, just because it’s used by everybody since it’s everything they have.

And here i have to agree with the OP. Some of these cases are compareable, and they are ridiculous, even more so, with the whole balance picture in mind.

I’m sick of every profession having access to tons of buffs and debuffs (mostly thru on crit), while Thieves get access to nothing while being the archetype of crit synergy, which is probably the reason Scootabuser.4915, among many others, thought Thieves would have a easier time getting crit related stats, and having synergy with it.

Truth is, Thieves have to sacrifice everything to get these crit stats, just like any other profession too. Just that Thieves don’t really have another choice (but gimmicky con builds). That compared with 11k base health and medium armor leaves a weak class.
With, or without stealth.

sorrow.2364:

Well, if I’m not wrong, Thieves had buffs over and over during BWE and now they are overbuffed and need to be toned down.

Trust me, all your weapon sets are amazing, just D/D is outstanding in its opness.
I main as a Necro and now I’m equally divided between Necro and Thief, the damage of P/P that you folks consider as underpar is really good.

Well of course the Necro has lower dmg than Thief.

The Necro has twice as much base HP plus a second health bar in death shroud, added to tons of utility with con removals, heals, buffs and debuffs.

Thief has dmg and stealth.

D/D isn’t outstanding, it’s the only thing that keeps Thief on par with Warriors, Engeneers and Mesmers (not even really that) dmg wise.

sorrow.2364:

Are you serious?
You mean 2k with autoattack or 2k with unload?
I deal 5k+ damage with Unload without putting any point on Deathly Arts traitline and I can use it 3 times in a row. Total: 15k damage on a 900 range. If this is bad in your opinion, I don’t know what’s good for you.

Unload spam? That dodge button.

/E:
And btw, yes, it is bad.
Engeneer can do 20k+ dmg in 1 second on 1500 range

Romeo.4378:

No, ‘subjekt’ is not a typo, it’s a wrong attempt to spell ‘subject’. A typo is when you accidently press a wrong key that mis-spells a word, like this: subjecy.

Furthermore, I doubt very much you are ‘sorry’, so why write it?

Yup, I can be an obnoxious jerk too. Fun, isn’t it?

Well, you are right, i couldn’t care less.
In my native language the letter c just isn’t used that way, it’s always k in that type of words. Besides that, Subjekt is actually a word in my language, so i probably just wrote that carelessly.

Also i wasn’t a “obnoxious jerk” for simply pointing out that nobody could actually read his topic because it was to long (and therefore shortened) before the edit into the actual text field, which happened because of this complain, making a discussion even possible.

But thanks for your performance.

I should probably stay away from international forums in the future, with such a terrible english.

Dee Jay.2460:

I’m sorry but I’m going to have to disagree with Asum’s entire sentiment regarding the Thief class.

It’s probably the spammiest, “user-friendly” and straight-forward class in game.

Then you are honestly playing your Thief fundamentally “wrong”, by which i mean, not even close to it’s fullest potential.

Whenever i see a Thief spamming anything, i nearly fall off my chair from laughing, which is the only case that kind of Thief may have a chance of even touching me.

What does a Staff Necro for example do? Pressing 2-5, then spamming 1. Thats it.

Thief is so much more about making decisions.
Do i keep initative for a Infiltrator’s Arrow to escape without killing the enemy i was chasing, or do i risk getting killed after jumping on him with a heartseeker (one, really, who spams that thing, it’s a gap closer), with no way to survive a long escape after taking the kill?
Do i go for a backstab on a enemy at 60 % health, taking half my initative and getting the kill for sure, or do i try to get him down to 25 % with autoattacks, fallowed by a HS, taking less of my initiative, but risking the use of a dancing dagger for the cripple if the enemy might dash/teleport away, so i can keep up with them, costing me more initative over all if it doesn’t work out how planned?

There is way more to the Thief than spamming one skill (worst. Thieves. ever), or pressing 1,2,3,4,5 like other classes do in most cases.

Not even dippin into Traits, which for the Thief actually make a huge difference in playstyle, instead of simple and boring flat CD reduces for more spammy spammy on other classes or the like.

As i pointed out, that would actually limit the choices a Thief can make, if he wants to be effective. That alone theoretically is a added choice in itself, but if that’s meant with skill cap, I’m not sure.

That initiative gives the player more control (like getting x initiative when doing y, instead of just CD reduced by X of other classes) isn’t anything i deny.
But overall it’s the same principle.

Rewards for having X Initiative (or a penality for having under X, point of view) is actually just what the OP suggested.
But again, it’s already in the game to a lesser extend – and i think it’s in a good spot the way it is.

For your last question, my answer would be no.
I think the Thief is probably the best (and most interesting) profession design wise.

If anything, the other classes need some work.
Elementalists and Engeneers are pretty interesting too with attunement swapping and kits.

But honetsly, the other classes don’t have really cool mechanics to offer (at least not to me).

And i further think that this is one of the, actually few, reasons for the Thief QQ.
Envy among misunderstanding of the Thief class and it’s mechanics.

Quite some time before the game came out, they had some really cool ideas for every class, and I’m really sad most of them didn’t made it in, or at leats got tuned down to a nearly generic level of play.
Except the Thieves Initiative system – which makes him the most fluid and dynamic class in the game.

Deathshroud turned out to be a pretty boring second health pool.
The weapon master with frequent access to weapon swapping and multiple weapon options (more than 2) got into a generic durable high dps fighter without anything to it.
Mesmer just got shatter 4 times. While it’s a decision since they all have different effects, it’s still 4 times shatter.
The ranger got his pet, ok, thats his thing. But it doesn’t really seems to be appealing or a interesting mechanic. Just that NPC fighting for you like hundred times before.
And the list goes on in classes, and for every class.

The only really innovative thing left is the Thief.
And guess what, people hate when they have to learn new things.
They just want their old and generic crap over and over again, and QQ that they don’t get new and cool stuff meanwhile.

The Thief is cool, new, innovative, interesting and complicated – pretty much everything little minds hate.

While i enjoy new ideas and theorycrafting alot, i think the Thief really needs it the fewest of all, and is power as design wise in a pretty good spot (except in alternative weapon choices).

People should stop complaining about how cool the Thief is (not really adressing the OP here, but i think thats clear by now), but putting their energy on making the other classes more interesting, so they can keep up with the Thief (not talking about power, but gameplay and design).

Alistair Cardozo.2560:

Btw its subject not “subjekt”.

Sorry for making typos in my second language at 9 am without sleep after a night full of WvW

People finally have to see Initative as what it is,

a global Cool Down for all weapon skills on both weapon sets.

It’s not some super complicated resource, or even a free ticket to use every ability whenever you want without any risk or downfall.

When any other class uses one ability, that one ability goes on CD.
When the Thief uses one ability, all abilities go “a little bit” on CD.

If any other class uses a few abilities (~5) all their skills are on CD (but they can weapon swap, using 5 more skills).
If the Thief uses a few abilities (2-4) all their skills are on CD, period (but generally for a shorter time).

It’s not as much of a “departure from every other profession” as most seem to believe.

And btw, if any class is spammy, then it’s the Warrior, Guardian, Necromancer, Ranger, Mesmer, Engeneer and most of all, Elementalist.

Thief is the class with the lowest amount of possible abilities being pumped out in a few second window.
Sure, they can “spam” one button 2-5 times (not really a difference to “spamming” 1-5), but thats generally not effective, and “countered” by clicking the dodge button one time.

I am aware of Initiative being slightly more complicated than how i just stated, but in a “good” way. It creates more options and actual choices (and therefore a higher skillcap, even if the noobs try to bring that down with "hep kitten just spam what you have, which is actually exactly what all other classes do).
It’s not broken, nor does it need a change.

People just have to finally realize how the Thief works, and the QQ would disappear.
But we are talking about a world where humans would be intelligent here.

/E:

The Idea of holding the Resource on a high level for more effectiveness is already in the game btw.

If you have at least 25 Points in Critical Strikes, you get a trait which increses your dmg by 10 % if your Initiative is over 6 (50 %, untraited).
Thats what i use, and it’s actually quite a interesting mechanic.

But i don’t think it has to be emphasised even further, by crippling the Thief with a lower Initiative regen, and therefore higher cooldowns.

Even more so since the Thief uses up already 50 % of his resource pool by just using a skill like CnD.

The common crit on a backstab as a full glass cannon Thief is around 5k dmg.

Everything else is just bullkitten, and happened in situations where even the Necro Scepter 1 skill would have crit for 8k.

Maybe you write the actual message in your thread, and not into the topic description, so we can all read it.

You also don’t write a mail into the subjekt, and then type “Right?” into the actual text field.

Theres always a QQ bandwagon. Always.

And which archetype gets it always?
The stealthy glass cannon. Always.

Why is this?

Because every dev in the world managed to get that particular archetype overpowered in their game?
Or because it’s a mechanic which is fatal if you don’t understand it, but very easy to counter if you do?

Well, it’s pretty obvious which one it is.

Noobs always cry the loudest. And noobs are the ones who (rightfully so) loose against that archetype.

So, what we see here again, is the simple result of bad players being bad.

Not the Thieves fault, just what happens.

Sithaco.4673:

5 Minutes of swiftness off of bunnies? You realise he would have had to kill 75 bunnies for that? Plus a 5v1, wtf dude.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Swiftness

Shhhh.

Everybody knows Thieves are OP. How dare you to bring facts into that discussion that prove something different!?

Scyntrus.2458:

This is ridiculous

It really is…

Now imagine some classes would have skills which give swiftness without any requirement. How crazy would that be.

Well, i already got the looks (Tier 3 Culture), and none of the dungeon armors really appeal to me.

But yeah, probably just gonna transmutate it again on 80 exos once i have the money for them.

Thanks for the replies.

kKagari.6804:

slippery has NOTHING to do with damage

This.

He wasn’t talking about dmg. He was talking about mobility.

That the Thief was intended a mobile profession (which he is), has nothing to do with the damage he is capable of dishing out.
I don’t get where you drew that connection from.

Besides that, a class can’t be nothing but slippery. What would that class do? Run until it’s reaching 80 and then run back?

Also slippery most often means actually doing a lot of dmg (not slippery means that, but the logical result of being slippery).
A slippery class can’t also be tanky like a rock.
A slippery class would be crap if it would start weak and get better over time of a fight (condition dmg), since it hasn’t the defense to stick around.

A slippery class has to burst out fast damage, and then, well, slip.. away.

Grimwolf.7163:

Also, it’s kind of a side point, but your argument about real world knives and why they don’t fit as “condition damage” when translated into the game is bizarre. Knives kill people through blood loss. Exclusively.
Hell, the only logical way any such weapon would not kill a person through loss of blood is if either their head were cut off or they suffered massive organ trauma, neither of which could be reasonably managed by a knife. Getting killed by a knife is always a slow death, too. Because they leave only shallow wounds that bleed out slowly. Contrary to what you see in movies, even if someone were stabbed in the neck it would take some time to bleed out.

Thats exactly what i said.

Thats the reason we don’t talk about knifes.
We talk about Daggers. They are different things.

Knife: Cutting, leads to heavy bleeding.
Dagger: Stabbing with the intention of hitting something that will result in a fast death.

As i mentioned, pretty much everything you do to a Human results in bleeding. But thats not the point of Daggers, as well it isn’t my intention to bleed someone out by punching them into the face with my fist, even if they may bleed most likely after that as well.

/E:

That is the sentence of the day.

Thanks buddy

BTW, you can delete your posts in case of double postings.

I want to make another post, without making it seem like spamming (yeah right, I’m the guys who spams walls of text).

First of, i want to say that i highly appreciate this thread, the thematic, and theory crafting in general.

Secondly, please stop the condition remake thing, as i pointed out in my other posts, thats just totally against the design core of the Dagger Thief.

After thats out of the way, we have to clear up one thing first.
Is backstabbing Thief actually an issue, and if so, what makes it one?

That requires a lot of data.
We can’t make a decision based on – There are many burst Thieves, but not so many bursts of X Class, and these burst Thieves rock, so burst Thieves are OP.

Burst Thieves run 100 % on burst, they sacrifice everything for that burst.

So we have to create builds which do the same for every other class and compare numbers on damage peaks, and over all damage over set time periods.

After we got that numbers, we have to compare what the classes still can do other than bursting with that builds, and compare the defensive stats (Thief for example has stealth, mobility, and incredible low HP and Toughness).

So let’s say for example Engeneers would come out slightly above Warriors damage wise, then it wouldn’t make them OP when Warriors on the other hand would have more HP, Toughness, mobilty and support while doing that slightly lower damage.

So there would have to be rankings. Which stat or effect is how important.
For that, you could use numbers from 1 (weak/unimportant) to 10 (strong/important).

So X amount of Vitality would have to be a 10 – 1, same for toughness (also classifying dmg stats and numbers later on for the complete comparison).
A little bit trickier is classifying “effects”. For example, which number gets stealth? How do we classify mobility? What about certain buffs or blocking abilities?
….

After all that hours of work, i honestly think Thief would probably come out in the middle of the field.
And if ANet has dasingers which are worth anything, then they are probably doing exactly what i have listed above in this post – and they probably came to the same conclusion. Thats why we don’t se posts like “Oh hell yeah, we have to nerf that thing”.

They know the Thief is actually fine, but they see that burst Thief is popular, compared to playing burst on other classes, which is due the Assassin theme of the Profession, and because Thieves can’t do much else.
And they see all the QQ in the forums.

So all the nerfs we will see coming, are probably only a case of “we have to do something, it doesn’t matter if it needs to be done”.

If I’m worng, please ArenaNet, send me over that data, and i will analyse it objectively again. Just because i love good analyses way more than i like playing a Thief and having fun while doing so

But i can’t imagine theThief profession being up front so far, to deserve all that QQ and nerfes it’s getting. Even if i subtract something from my estimation for possible bias of playing mainly Thief, he wouldn’t be even on the first place.

You will never see a backstab Thief staying in a up front fight with a Warrior. They simply have no chance of winning that fight.
All they have, is bursting them down before they can do anything.
If catched unluckily, their dead.

It’s not a unbalance, it’s a trade off.
And people never understood that. In no game i have ever played so far (and that being many).
All you need to do is sticking together, CC’ing the glass cannon, or burst them before they burst you.
You simply can’t expect to win a 1vs1 as squishy against a single target burst Thief, as much as you can’t expect to kill a Necro with conditions, or a Tank guardian as support.

Why i take my time to type that wall of text?
Because i read QQ about stealthy burst characters/classes since over 10 years, and I’m honestly sick of seeing fun and balanced classes getting nerfed into oblivion.

It is statistically impossible that every dev on earth managed to get exactly that archetype overpowered in their game.
What is possible, and actually very so because it would show why it’s constant, is that the majority of people simply don’t understand that specific game mechanics.

I see people crying about Thieves being able to stomp in stealth and backstab dmg. Then i see them posting a video where a Thief downs their ally with his raw burst and stealthing right next to them. Then they watch how their ally gets stomped, while just staying still, waiting for the Thief to reappear behind them for the next backstab combo as example of how "O"P Thieves are, instead of learning to cast AoE’s around their downed ally, casting unteargeted interrups (AoE fears, whatnot) and so on. And if nothing helps and the ally dies, trying to protect themselfs, being prepared for the, by that time very low on health, Thief, to simply finish them of after they missed their backstab, because you know how to time a dodge roll or disable.

Also why do people stop attacking when a for example rooted Thief stealthes? He is still freaking rooted, so just kill him for QQ’s sake.

I mean… really?

It’s not the class, it’s the people.

Grimwolf.7163:

Actually, I personally like the idea of replacing a portion of the damage with bleeds. Currently it may be used by crit/power builds rather than condition, but it would make the set as a whole more consistent because of how Death Blossom works. It would be, overall, more of a condition based set, and rather than using either Death Blossom or Cloak and Dagger depending upon build, you would rely upon CnD for the raw single target damage, and Death Blossom would be for AoE, dodging, or just for rapid spiking after CnD while the revealed debuff is preventing another CnD.
I’ve always hated having one of my attacks border on useless depending on my build, and this change would not only make both attacks useful to the same builds, but it would fix the issue of Backstab instagibbing certain people when you cheese the hell out of it.

So you want to change Autoattack, backstab, heartseeker, dancing dagger, and CnD in it’s direct dmg core design, to meet Death Blossoms focus on condition dmg?

Theres a reason Dagger is used by direct dmg Thieves – it’s the only weapon direct dmg Thieves can effectively use.
The very core idea of the backstab mechanic is the high direct dmg spike, and the complete Dagger setup is build around that, except the misplaced dual skill, Death Blossom.

Atm we got pistols as Condition weapon, with the misplaced direct dmg dual skill, and Daggers as direct damage weapon, with the misplaced condition dmg dual skill (and shortbow for a AoE hybrid + Sword which doesn’t really know what it want’s to be).

If we would change Backstab into condition dmg (which wouldn’t even make sense if you think about it + being basically a complete remake of the design core) then what would be left for direct dmg Thieves?
Spamming unload? Or, beware, pistol whip spam?

So please, don’t claim a change of daggers to condition dmg being “more consistent because of how Death Blossom works”, because it’s quite the opposite.

Daggers: The weapon of a Assassin, striking out of the shadows on a unawakittenget (whats wrong with that censorship unaware | target), for a fast and quiet death.

Daggers are designed for stabbing (not cutting, making the enemy bleed, or implying poisons etc., that are Knifes btw), applying fatal wounds (organs or other important parts) leading to a very fast and silent death. They are also desinged to be worn hidden.

Sure you can apply poison to your dagger, and sure the enemy will bleed (like it will after getting striked with really anything sharp or heavy), but thats not the point of the weapon we are talking about.
And for those who don’t care about all that stuff, it’s not how ArenaNet desinged Daggers in Guild Wars 2 in the first place.

If everything, Death Blossom should be changed to fit into the weapon set (Dagger/Dagger).

This isn’t a discussion on how to “fix” backstab (which isn’t broken), but how to change (remake) it to meet Condition dmg running Thieves to have even more options on the dispense of direct dmg Thieves (which only got Daggers – which, again, makes only sense as direct damage weapon).

BTW, CnD isn’t for “raw single target dmg”, it’s basically nothing but a perfect Backstab setup, giving stealth to you and vulnerability to the enemy, for even more direct dmg.

If Backstabbing builds (not backstab on it’s own, that would be ridiculous) is considered as to strong (which it isn’t in my humble opinion), then there are remakes to make. But not to the core, but more to the amplifiers given.

That being Traits like “Hidden Killer”, “Infusion of Shadow”, “Flanking Strikes”, “Mug”, “Long Reach” or “Side Strike”.
And with remakes, i don’t mean tweaks in the sense of tuning them down, or even nerfing them into uselessnes. If they are touched in any way, then if anything they have to be replaced by something equal in power, but being used in a different way.
A, design wise lame, example would be changing Flanking Strikes (5 % increased dmg when hitting from behind) into a trait which increases Damage by 5 % when hitting the enemy in the face (front).
That way it wouldn amlify backstabs, but would do more damage over all to compensate a little bit for the burst loss.
But again, such a change would be kind of uninspired, and more dmg when hitting a enemy into his guarded side would make as much sense as daggers doing dmg via conditions.
Just a example.

Flat out nerfs will straight up ruin the Thief, a profession that isn’t as strong as many seem to believe.
With squishy burst classes it’s a fine line. They are only strong because of their raw dmg, killing the enemy before they can do much. If that dmg is nerfed by only a little bit, going under that line, giving the enemy time to play, they end up completely useless, since they can’t compete in a “fair fight”.

Character limit

Not everybody wants to play a condition Thief, really.. why want people conditions added to everything.

Backstab is completely fine as mechanic – theres just arguably to much in traits that supports that mechanic, which leads to a super strong hit, when every damage increase trait is taken (leaving the Thief completely useless but for that one hit).

While i don’t think that is a problem, Traits would have to be changed, not backstabbing.

Dagger is stabby stabby direct damage. We don’t need another condition master profession which can do nothing but that effectively.

That said, the Assassin’s Signet change was enough to bring backstabbing Thieves in line. Any other “Tweak” and Thieves simply won’t be able to compete with Warriors, Mesmers and Engeneers (even burst) dmg wise, while already having not even a thrid of their defesive (only stealth really), and close to zero utility (uhm.. Venoms, maybe..?).

/E:
It’s already pathetic that i “burst” only for 3k dmg with my backstab on a dmg Warrior with nearly 30k Health, just to be bursted away by said Warrior in 2 hits then.
And even if i manage to kill a bad one, then they just stand up from downed state, kill me, and walk away.
Not even talking about insta gibbing Engeneers from 1500 range, or Shatter/Phantasm Mesmers not even doing one step for their kills.

I also don’t want to think about our downed state, which is nothing but a little bit trolling for sPvP. But when does that crap actually get you up, compared to other professions? A 600 range teleport and a 2 second stealth (which starts on CD when getting downed), yeah… thanks.

I think i was never scared to loose a fight when finishing a Thief while being on low health, while i actually have to run away when downing a Warrior, Necro and so on, except if i have a stealth off cooldown in which i can finish them.

Thieves are already pretty mediocre. It’s simply a bandwagon to cry over them.
And honestly, squishy high dmg classes where always noob stompers, and noobs are the ones crying the loudest. Pretty much the only reason for all that Thief QQ.

Since i changed my Thief quite a lot since the last pic (page 3), i gonna post some new screens.

I went fo a change, since i think my new combination represents the squishy but acrobatic Assassin much more than my previous, bulky look.

Still considering a change for the boots + pants tho, but haven’t found anything better yet.

MasterDeere.3417:

Call it Haste then, or Quickness!

And still is Warrior the class with the highest dmg output (then engeneer, and then, maybe Thief, together with Elementalist and Mesmer).

Frenzy + Hundred Blades + CC = GG.

The only compareable thing the Thief has to that combo is Quickness + Pistol Whip, which does way less dmg than hundred blades, even before is was nerfed.

Kinda funny, isn’t it.

I time my dodges very well.

That combined with knowing exactly which moves the enemy Thief just blew into the air and their Initiative costs, i know when to go in – slapping that helpless Thief in the face.

Gimmicky Backstab Thieves (CnD, Steal, Backstab, HS spam) are free kills, since you can avoid the whole rotation with just one dodge roll, leaving you with 100 % health, and the Thief with only 3 initiative left.

So overall my answer on how to counter a Thief would be:
Skillful play and understanding of basic game mechanics.

Done.

/E:

Thats just one counter for a complete glass cannon.
The other million counters would be the countless defesive builds and utilities out there.

MasterDeere.3417:

I dont understand what Anet had in mind when they gave frenzy to thief. Thief is already the highest dammage output class without it….

I think you confuse Thief with Warrior.

The price difference really got me thinking lately.

I got my 6 Divinity Runes some time ago, but now, where I’m getting a new armor, I’m thinking about selling the runes (4g each) and getting Ruby Orbs instead (10 – 13 Silver each).

The stat difference between 6 Divinities and 6 Orbs on the other hand would be actually pretty small.
They got the same amount of crit dmg, Orbs would double my power gain (from 60 to 120), i would get a little bit more precision (from 60 to 84), but loose out on 60 vit, toughness and healing power.

That said, it’s over 20 gold cheaper to go for Orbs.

So, what do you guys think about Orbs vs. Runes in the current state of the game (price/effectiveness)?

I really like the over all effectiveness of divinity runes, and how they can be used for pretty much every direct dmg based build, but for what would you go for at that price point (considering a backstab build, not the gimmicky one time burst one, but one which still makes you a good over all fighter)?

(besides that, do you think there is any point of upgrading to 80 exotics from 78 exotics? The stats are nearly the same, and it would cost me another ~2 gold?)

Pretty easy. After a while you can complete it by pure muscle memory.

Best i got so far was 36 times in a row.

Then i felt into the stupid gap between the rocks at the beginning

So much fun, i can do this thing the whole day long.

Human, Thief, no boost – more bags than i can count.

We ran the tower for 3h straight (me and 3 charrs).

Most awesome time i had with GW 2 since the first BWE.

Beat it 10 times in a row just for the fun. Met some amazing people while trying to beat it (we failed for 2 hours), but once we did, it just felt awesome, and so easy.

/E:

Making it solo would take away 90 % of the fun.

I did it with some strangers from different servers in the overflow, and it was one of the best times i had in GW 2 so far (playing since first BWE).

And yes, we really needed 2 hours to beat it for the first time (and except me and one asura we all where charrs and norns btw).

Zunhar.4079:

I’m calling cheats on this one.

Rightfully so, after all the prove we have seen… oh wait.

The Thief hating slowly reminds of christianity, ah dang, i meant insanity.
Don’t believe every crap some people claim to be true.

Btw, last night a Elementalist onehittet my Guardian. I think their damage should be toned down across the board.
After all the facts given to you, who is with me?

So people playing the strongest class in the game right now, complain about a mediocre -weak pubstomper class, calling it OP.

Interesting…

(The rendering issue should be known, that not all people are displayed in a crowded area in WvW should be known too, and neither is a Thief exclusive issue)

labotimy.2439:

Ianervan.3415:

I hope they nerf Thief to the ground.

this ^. cant wait to laugh at all the bads fotm’ing thief to reroll. bads gonna be bad. just because i know its coming, i have a thief and play it enough in spvp to know its completely faceroll, by far the easiest class to play period. 4 buttons pressed and a total of 1 second time in melee will result in most balanced/glass classes being at 20% hp or less, i guess according to thief players this is balanced /idiots.

I’m getting some really sad League of Legends baddie vibes over here.

Why do you want a class to be ruined and “nerfed into the ground”? Why do you want people to reroll who spent tons of time into their character?

I mean, are you dumb, or just simply a bad person?
Who says/wants crap like that?

Also FotM, really?
I decided to play Thief (and Necro) when the classes where announced, and play them since the first beta.

We want balance, you want a class you are to bad to play against being dumbed down, to a extend of not being playable anymore.

Now guess what ANet is trying to cater to?

“4 buttons pressed and a total of 1 second time in melee will result in most balanced/glass classes being at 20% hp or less”

And still there are other classes which burst harder, some even from range, with less buttons pressed and with a ton of more defensive while doing so than a Thief.
Soooo..!? No matter what the numbers say, Thief still OP, right?

Gwalchgwn.1659:

Funniest thing of all is, as a thief myself, I’ve never been instagibbed by another thief?
We are the weakest class ingame when taken by suprise, so it would be logical that a BS thief would kill me in 1 second according to ppl who wants us nerfed. Yet that never happens to me …

It actually happened to me the first time yesterday, and i laughed for around 5 minutes why the hell i didn’t just used my con removal and dodged.

I met the same Thief three more times that day, and just outplayed him.

You are missing nothing, and nobody here will be able to help you with game design questions (aka “Why don’t they just change the timer of smoke bomb for PvP and PvE situations?”)

Welcome to the Thief profession…

One of the weakest classes, claimed to be the strongest (and getting further nerfed for it).

Honestly, if you don’t play Thief because you just happen to like the theme of the class, stick to Warrior.
You will have more damage, more health and more toughness,
but only miss the feeling of playing a assassin.

You will find a lot more issues with the Thief, especially in PvE, making him a pretty poor pick.
If you don’t love the theme and playstyle of the class, you will have a really hard time with it.

It’s actually really a feature, not a bug.
Gives Thieves the chance to actually hit Cloak and Dagger once every 45 seconds (a extremely short range melee attack with a cast time and a obvious animation)

The only thing that makes backstab Thieves powerful is Assassins Signet.

Syn.3459:

my first post was about 10 mins ago saying that any class doing 13k damage is unacceptable

You are right, we should nerf Rangers, Elementalists, Warriors, Mesmers, Guardians, Engeneers and Thieves right now.

I mean, the only class that can’t burst out that much dmg in 2 – 5 seconds when speccing full on glass cannon is the Necromancer.

Thief burst is actually only the 4th highest in the game (with Warriors > Engeneers > Mesmers taking the lead).

The only question left is:
Why do we see so many Thieves running burst builds, compared to other classes?

Short answer is: because the Thief can’t do anything else (effectively, compared to other classes).

Want to play support? Nobody picks a Thief for that.
Want to play control? Why would you pick a Thief?
Want to be tanky? Thief is probably the worst decision on this you can make.
Want to be mobile? Thief is good here, but not the best. But being mobile alone isn’t doing anything.
Want to do damage? At least the Thief is pretty good here.

The only reason the Thief profession stands out for it’s damage is because you don’t see a variety in roles.
If every Engeneer would run burst, it would be worse than Thieves.
If every Warrior would run burst, it would be worse than Thieves.
If every…

If you complain about people not getting the whole picture, you should probably check how biased you are yourself.

You complain about Thief burst, only because every Thief bursts you.
You dont complain about Warrior burst, just because not every Warrior bursts you, even tho their burst is higher (while having much more defensive at the same time).
Same goes for Engeneers and so on.

That paired with Assassins (stealth bursts) being pubstompers, and noobs crying the loudest in fourms etc. (while pros just search a counter, if they have a problem at all), just gives a wrong, small, picture of a class.

It’s simply psychology, and if anything, then Thieves are lacking in role diversity and surviveability (besides the noob trap stealth).

Again, they only gear, trait and skill for full burst because thats the only role they can play really effectively, while not even being the best in that role.

[And btw, if you want to simply beat someone who is fully geared for glass cannon, it’s only fair if you have to gear for fully anti glass cannon]

If any 2 classes aren’t OP, then is has to be the Thief and the Elementalist.
While the Elementalist has the ultimate role diversity (but being a master at none), the Thief is only really good at one thing.
Both is lacking.

Giving the Elementalists some more health would nearly fix his problem, since then he would be kind of powerful with all the roles he can play (at basically the same time), without dieing when someone looks at him.

The Thief, while also desperately in need for more base health, also really needs a buff to his (atm) uncommon weapon sets, and probably more viable weapon choices added, which should support playing different roles.

That would also thin out burst Thieves by a great deal, making them not standing out as bursters all the time any more, which would fix the problem, and elevating them to be on par with the other classes (not standing out for one thing, and one thing only, getting much attention).

Assassins = pubstompers. And you play pubs.

I see a pattern, i just can’t figure it out yet…

Tulisin.6945:

Lets take D/D for example:
-#2 also takes control of your character from you, dedicating you to a straight-forward jump arc for a small period of time.
-#3 you’ve already explained.
-#4 while spammable, has a lazily slow projectile speed, far from precise.
-#5 has a substantial wind-up time easily dodgeable if you know what to look for.

If anything “fast and precise strikes” are a vast minority in dagger skills.

HS doesn’t feels like it’s taking control from me, it’s a gap closer, a fast leap foward, which generally feel good to use, so in this case.

DD “feels” fast. There is nothing as satisfying as throwing these daggers in little groups of 2-3 people. Also throwing daggers kinda feels like a precise thing to do.

CnD is a dodgy one, i aggree. While it often feels extremely unprecise and slow, and is missing for no reason, it just feels right sometimes (but yeah, if it would be a fast dagger stab it would be MUCH more satisfying to use).

AA is stabby stabby, exactly what i want from my Thief,

and LDB again, is this whirling around in the air, which just seems unpractical in my eyes if you want to stab someone with daggers.
While HS is this short and fast Leap, LDB just takes the control away long enough to feel bad to use for me (and it’s doing mostly condition damage, which doesn’t fit in my dagger setup and the role of daggers in my mind at all, daggers = stabby stabby, fast and nice direct damage on close range).

Overall, the Thief would feel pretty amazing if they would take away some damage, but increase the (attack/projectile)speed of all attacks (not on a “haste” level, but close), except maybe Heartseeker (and maybe, LDB, i think this ability just feels wrong, but thats just me).

castillle.5248:

Ive been wondering if Backstab build was viable in PVE. I need to get some money and get gear for it x.x

I play a backstab PvE build since a good month, and i like it much more than the upfront fighting builds.
I created the build long before the PvP backstab QQ started, and i play it for the same reason i picked Thief as class.
I want to be sneaky, i want to strike from the shadows, and i want to kill fast.

As offhand i use SB, for events (AoE) and champions (range, if you are sick of getting onehitted as Thief).

You just have to create a “consistent backstab build” (which i also use for PvP, since i don’t like the one trick pony feeling), other than the uber burst Assassins Signet build some use for PvP.

Meaning you don’t have the ridiculous backstab dmg, but you can do stuff beside that.

I run D/D with SB swap since a good month, and i only have a key binding “for” LDB to use short bow 3 (bound to 5) since you can’t bind for weapon sets or individual skills.

I think i never used that skill, except in the betas, figuring out whats effective and whats not.

I don’t like the idea of pressing that button, and watching my character fleeing out of my hands/control, spinning into whatever, besides the fact that everybody with the reaction time of a brick can dodge the skill.

Overall, for me, it doesn’t fit into the dagger setup at all, which is about fast and precise strikes and tight control over the character.

So spinning nonsese is nothing for me.

I can’t live without the 15 points minor trait in acrobatics anymore though.
With only 2 dodges i feel like a heavy brick with a big red target sign on my back.

Wow, i love it.

“Shall we put some AoE’s down?” “NOPE!”

Absolutely amazing. Music fits the goofy clueless zerg perfectly.

DoubleUnder.9052:

Agreed. I run a full toughness Ranger with Soldiers Amulet in sPvP. I am good at my class and have no issues with any class but thieves. Last night it took less than 8 seconds for a thief to kill me and since he kept dropping to stealth I never got a shot off. And he was sure to wait until I had completed my dodge rolls and evades to hit me. I assumed he knew how to play, but I could do nothing to defend myself since I couldn’t see him.

So I rolled a thief, came back in and rolled face. Its stupid that one class can be so OP.

Congratulations, you are a terrible Ranger player, and you are capable of playing a pubstomping class versus noobs.

OP, 10/10, would read again.