Guild Wars 2

kreven.6017:

nerf scrapper lol lol sure but be sure to also nerf chill condi necro and condi invuln with the 8k hitting pets tank druid

Well I would propose nerfs to a lot of the new elites introduced with HoT. This isn’t about them though since it’s the engi forum.

Axialbloom.8109:

So why was Mesmer nerfed right out of the game, while the Revenant is allowed to dominate still? HoT poster child?

Chrono bunker is the biggest cancer to ever exist in this game. It literally caused tons of players to quit.

The resulting nerf was a no-brainer that I, a mesmer main, fully supported.

Manuhell.2759:

Azukas.1426:

I told you to look at the entire picture. The fact that you can’t really puts your bias in the lime light.

I believe if it’s best for you to take a break on your engi and explore classes like warrior thief etc. Get a real perspective on the game.

You talk about bias, but all you’ve done here is asking for the scrapper to be nerfed in doing he’s designed to, refusing any compensation for doing so, and all of that because it happens to work well in PvP (disregarding any other mode in doing so).
I talked about changing what’s he specialized too, to make it less suitable to point defense, and yet you still advocated only to nerf. To take what he’s focused upon and make it average, while retaining the weak points such a specialization brings along.
You don’t want it to be specialized, and still you want all the downsides that come from being specialized in something. And then you accuse me of bias, how amusing.

And i’ve got all the classes, albeit not the specializations (most classes utterly bore me, actually). I do have a good perspective of the game, in my opinion.
I don’t know if you’ve got a good perspective instead, but neither i care, and i won’t tell you to get one. Still, it’s getting late here, and thus i’ll sleep. Good night.

No compensation is needed as I’ve already proved. Just because the truth is starting dawn on you doesn’t mean you can start spouting lies.

A non compensated nerf is needed. Defending a point is fine but being able to do everything so well is not.

Thank you

Manuhell.2759:

insanemaniac.2456:

it seems wrong to consider only scrapper only things when talking about scrapper balance because 2/3 of the traits are base engi and only 1/6 of the possible utilities are scrapper only and 1/4 weapon sets is scrapper only.

very narrow minded.

I feel that clearly distinguish between the two is necessary, instead. Since it makes evident how they’re differently focused upon.
Beside that, people seems to have issues with the scrapper, but not with the base engineer. There wouldn’t be a point on nerfing core trait/skills if the core class isn’t too strong, and it would make the balance even more terrible once some other elite specs come (balancing depending on the best outcome of any separate elite specialization – and i should point out that an elite specialization is called like that because it makes indeed specialized in something, thus stronger at that than the base class – would means nerfing everything the core spec has, one at a time).
Also, those two engineer trait lines you mention are mostly about self-support/sustain anyway. Even bunker down ends up being better when alone rather than in groups.
That last post stemmed over the group support of the scrapper, anyway. And by going scrapper you do lose out on that, even compared to the base engineer. Let alone other classes.
And thus, if what he’s specialized it has to be reduced, it should be compensated by raising what he performs poorly. For example, group support (mostly because it would be relatively easy…they could change how rapid regeneration and adaptive armor work, in terms of traits).

I told you to look at the entire picture. The fact that you can’t really puts your bias in the lime light.

I believe if it’s best for you to take a break on your engi and explore classes like warrior thief etc. Get a real perspective on the game.

morrolan.9608:

Azukas.1426:

morrolan.9608:

ronpierce.2760:

I tried to tell people Ele was just fine. .

Its a support bot only, no damage at all, so no I don’t class that as fine

And ele was present on every team. Ele is fine.

There are classes that actually need help.

Only mesmer and warrior in terms of focus and revs in terms of needing a nerf, but that doesn’t mean eles are fine. Anet should be able to work on every class simultaneously.

Every team had an ele.

Ele is fine.

Guardian Thief Warrior need immediate help while Mesmer Ranger need to be looked at.

Zero Day.2594:

Scrolled through the post…

Didn’t see one troll saying:

“What? You’ve been in the meta for 3 years, now you’re crying that you’re out of meta”.

So I thought I would just drop that line, since this kind of thread isn’t a thread if someone doesn’t mention that.

:| Can’t believe you guys are still around….

All classes should be meta imho.

The fact 3 classes didn’t see play in the finals is an embarrassment on the balance.

Fay.2357:

Azukas.1426:

Fay.2357:

Azukas.1426:

rchu.8945:

Azukas.1426:

So I guess the “sky is falling” crowd are eating crow?

There’s no crow to eat because the Mesmer proved its just not viable. Making an appearance doesnt mean it’s effective.

The discrepancy in team skill stopped the mesmer not the mesmer class.

You’ve got a hilarious double standard here. You’re saying that the mesmer’s poor performance can’t possibly indicate that mesmer is poor because the team was bad, then you turn around and say that the mesmer is clearly viable because it showed up in the tournament, despite having just claimed that you can’t tell anything about the mesmer due to the bad team. You can’t have it both ways, either it means something or it doesn’t.

Azukas.1426:

I’ll say it again. A pro team went with mesmer for a reason and didn’t consider guardian, thief, or warrior at all.

Yeah. Want to know the reason? http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Portal_Entre

That’s literally it. They chose mesmer because we have portal. Not because the class outside of portal is even remotely good.

Azukas.1426:

Our class is better off than those 3, and you literally can’t deny it. We are not trash tier. We may be at an under powered level, but we are going to have to see how our utility pans out in this new meta.

Based on what? The only team that took a mesmer got dismantled. Yes, I know, the team played badly, you’ve already mentioned it…but it’s nothing short of lunacy to use the fact that a team brought a mesmer as mesmer being viable when that team got massacred.

Until you can give an argument more intelligent than ‘but a team that got destroyed brought a mesmer so mesmer is viable’, you’ve got absolutely nothing to say.

It didn’t matter what classes Rank 55 ran against PZ….they were that much better than them. So coming to a conclusion on how well mesmer works in this meta can’t be done.

What conclusion can be made is a pro team decided to run mesmer b/c they saw something in our class. I can guarantee you that they’ve faced Rev, Rev, Necro, Ele, Engi in their scrims with the abjured (who just happened to run that comp) before the finals.

Thank You

Yeah. They saw portal. I’m not sure why you keep denying that portal is the singular reason they ran it, with moa as an honorable mention.

I’m not denying anything simply stating we don’t know because they haven’t said. You’re assuming I’m going byou facts.

Please come with facts not emotions

morrolan.9608:

ronpierce.2760:

I tried to tell people Ele was just fine. .

Its a support bot only, no damage at all, so no I don’t class that as fine

And ele was present on every team. Ele is fine.

There are classes that actually need help.

Manuhell.2759:

Azukas.1426:

So the fact you have 2 water fields with blast finishers

Base engineer skill, not a scrapper one. The scrapper itself doesn’t even provide blast finishers, by the way. Only leap and whirl ones.

can stomp/res from 900 units away

Yeah, that’s literally all its elite mechanic does. One at a time, with a cooldown, and an hp bar attached. I’m not sure you really want to compare it with other elite mechanics.

Azukas.1426:

Group Stealth

An elite skill that stealths and gives your location away, since the gyro itself is always visible. It would more apt to call it a detargeting tool, since that’s what it is used for. And can be destroyed easily, but people never bother to do it. Quite an overrated skill.

, a lightning field

That’s useful mainly via leap finishers. That means mostly when used by the scrapper itself. Unless you’re so eager to give people swiftness…

, group reflection,

If you slot bulwark gyro, indeed you’ve got one, centered on yourself. It can work as group support, but i wouldn’t call it its main function. As far as i’ve seen, though, meta build don’t even use bulwark gyro.

2 ways to give allies regen,

Yep, that’s some group support. I did mention it had few means of group support in some post above, after all. Albeit, even those are due to engineer skills, rather than scrapper ones.

light field with whirl finisher,

Like above, this is due of an engineer skill. It’s a clunky way to provide support, and kinda unreliable, and you’ll likely waste the reflect on the electro-whirl, but we could call it some group support.

50% damage reduction to allies

That gets inflicted to the gyro instead, thus having more people makes it die quite faster. This trait is shared by purge and healing gyro as well, where they heal a single people at a time. Thus making them far better when alone, and weaker when in groups.

and this on top of being able to stand on point in a group fight dealing stupid amounts of damage.

By using offensive stats and traits that are mostly about self-sustain or other defensive means.

Yeah no group support at all…*

Most of the times i’ve written about having few means of group support, though. And indeed, there isn’t much. Two regens, a clunky way of healing conditions (assuming you even hit allies), a gyro that’s not even on the meta build and that’s destroyed faster the more allies there are and the reflection field that comes with it (thus, compared to that build, since it will miss elixir B and toss elixir B, it will have less offense and stability).

So your entire argument against my rightful analysis of Scrapper is that you want even more group support on top of everything I just highlighted if the damage is reduced….Yeah no.

Guess we have a different concept of what a good group support is. Or of rightful, either.

Azukas.1426:

I replied in bold inside your quote. I thank you for your input and want to wish you well.

Thank you

Have a good evening too.

Uhh did you just try to justify that….wow.

You need to play other classes…

Wow

Fay.2357:

Azukas.1426:

rchu.8945:

Azukas.1426:

So I guess the “sky is falling” crowd are eating crow?

There’s no crow to eat because the Mesmer proved its just not viable. Making an appearance doesnt mean it’s effective.

The discrepancy in team skill stopped the mesmer not the mesmer class.

You’ve got a hilarious double standard here. You’re saying that the mesmer’s poor performance can’t possibly indicate that mesmer is poor because the team was bad, then you turn around and say that the mesmer is clearly viable because it showed up in the tournament, despite having just claimed that you can’t tell anything about the mesmer due to the bad team. You can’t have it both ways, either it means something or it doesn’t.

Azukas.1426:

I’ll say it again. A pro team went with mesmer for a reason and didn’t consider guardian, thief, or warrior at all.

Yeah. Want to know the reason? http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Portal_Entre

That’s literally it. They chose mesmer because we have portal. Not because the class outside of portal is even remotely good.

Azukas.1426:

Our class is better off than those 3, and you literally can’t deny it. We are not trash tier. We may be at an under powered level, but we are going to have to see how our utility pans out in this new meta.

Based on what? The only team that took a mesmer got dismantled. Yes, I know, the team played badly, you’ve already mentioned it…but it’s nothing short of lunacy to use the fact that a team brought a mesmer as mesmer being viable when that team got massacred.

Until you can give an argument more intelligent than ‘but a team that got destroyed brought a mesmer so mesmer is viable’, you’ve got absolutely nothing to say.

It didn’t matter what classes Rank 55 ran against PZ….they were that much better than them. So coming to a conclusion on how well mesmer works in this meta can’t be done.

What conclusion can be made is a pro team decided to run mesmer b/c they saw something in our class. I can guarantee you that they’ve faced Rev, Rev, Necro, Ele, Engi in their scrims with the abjured (who just happened to run that comp) before the finals.

Thank You

Manuhell.2759:

Azukas.1426:

You are only focusing on engineer. A look at the entire game yields a different PoV.

And you’re only focusing on damage and self-sustain. That’s your issue. Those aren’t the only thing classes can do. You’re the one that should look the entire game.

So you are saying a Scrapper has nothing to offer in a group fight……

Azukas.1426:

The fact a scrapper can pull of cele ele point holding, better damage, 1v1 like a boss, and do all this while wearing a marauder amulet is the problem. If you had to sacrifice damage to obtain that survivability it would be perfectly fine, but you do not. The damage coefficients on hammer along with the passives and survivability of traits + utilities are too much.

Again – you’re comparing an elite spec and meta build that focuses on doing a specific thing with a class that’s well more rounded – group support included. There is no point in such a comparison. Of course the specialized one ends up being better if it does what it is specialized on.

So what you are getting at is scrapper has no group support thus the over performing it does is ok. So the fact you have 2 water fields with blast finishers, can stomp/res from 900 units away, Group Stealth, a lightning field, group reflection, 2 ways to give allies regen, light field with whirl finisher, 50% damage reduction to allies, and this on top of being able to stand on point in a group fight dealing stupid amounts of damage. Yeah no group support at all…

Azukas.1426:

I honestly would be ok with engineers being able to take that amount of beating if you cut 30-40% of the damage they could do. Or keep the damage and make kitten sure they are dropping with ease while wearing a marauder amulet like the rest of the game.

And this is why i’m strongly opposed to such blind (or biased, but i can’t be sure) points of view.
All you would do is making barely average in what it is supposed to be its strong point, while doing nothing to address its weak points, essentially making the specialization worthless.

Like i said above, they could turn its self sustain in group one, so that it can be individually weaker – and thus less suited for defending points while alone – but still be useful in group. That could be a reasonable solution.
But no, all you’re talking about is just about nerf, nerf, nerf.

So your entire argument against my rightful analysis of Scrapper is that you want even more group support on top of everything I just highlighted if the damage is reduced….Yeah no.

I replied in bold inside your quote. I thank you for your input and want to wish you well.

Thank you

rchu.8945:

Azukas.1426:

Burtnik.5218:

Burtnik.5218:

QQ in 3…2….1… bc teams runs 2 revs /shrug

I love to be right ;D

Theres only 1 thing that has to be toned down and its herald. They also played old comp (shield revs lmao) and eles carried them like a princess.

But its okay, lets base balance around “pro league” played by kids <cough>

Yes actually we will. They are over performing and need to be nerfed. They’ve been over performing since their introduction to the game….by design i might add.

It’s actually very simple. Nerf them. It doesn’t matter how it is done but the result in only at max 1 per team. I made this thread not as QQ but as an avenue to help the devs collect ideas on what is over performing on the class.

your comments have never been helpful, more like pretending to be helpful but try to get people behind your ideas to more nerfs.

Enough with your garbage, same as the ones you post in Mesmer forum.

Pardon me but you need to stay on topic please.

Also the toning down of my rev will be an actual buff to our mesmers. The overall health of the game is more important than a single person’s desire to keep their class OP.

If you can’t see that’s what I’m pushing for than I feel bad for you.

Have a nice day

Windwalker.7421:

No offense but I would take 1 meaningful boost over a handful of fairly irrelevant changes.

Not that I think either will happen, we might see 1-2 irrelevant changes at best.

As others have said, I think the most we can hope for is nerfs for some other classes to bring them down to our level, rather than the other way around.

I really think the actual curtailing of the AoE disgusting spam that has infiltrated high level pvp needs to be removed. This by itself would instantly propel mesmer effectiveness 10 fold.

Mesmer in truth doesn’t need much….just a nice smacking of the rest of the classes.

p.s. I understand that anet properly balancing the rest of the game is a long shot, and I am deeply against anymore power creeps since history shows us that it fails 100% of the time.

rchu.8945:

Azukas.1426:

So I guess the “sky is falling” crowd are eating crow?

There’s no crow to eat because the Mesmer proved its just not viable. Making an appearance doesnt mean it’s effective.

The discrepancy in team skill stopped the mesmer not the mesmer class.

I’ll say it again. A pro team went with mesmer for a reason and didn’t consider guardian, thief, or warrior at all.

Our class is better off than those 3, and you literally can’t deny it. We are not trash tier. We may be at an under powered level, but we are going to have to see how our utility pans out in this new meta.

And yes I supported every single mesmer nerf that anet gave us in order to kill chrono bunker. I’m not afraid to state whats OP even if it’s my main class b/c I know over health of the game matters more. Seems the rest of y’all can’t do this. That’s ok just please realize that your opinions on balance are taken with a grain of salt

Scrappers are performing greater than they should be in terms of overall game balance. Being able to have that much survivability and sustain while wearing a marauder amulet is the red flag to alert us to being too strong.

I do not have a problem with them having that much damage while wearing a glass amulet nor do I have a problem with them being extremely hard to kill…..just not all while wearing a glass amulet. The culprit is the amount of survivability they obtain w/out having to rely on the amulet. That is wrong and ALWAYS leads to a class over performing.

So Anet needs to either 1. Remove the damage or 2. Nerf the survivability

IDC which they choose they just need to fix it for the good of the game.

Manuhell.2759:

Azukas.1426:

Once again you are just arguing against yourself and not looking at the big picture.
You literally are only focusing on “Anet said I was supposed to do this so that’s what this is!!” and disregarding actual game balance. Did you watch the finals? You see the engineer from Rank 55 finish killing the lord while being wailed on by another player from Team PZ while wearing a marauder amulet? In what world do you honestly believe that is ok?

In one where an elite spec is designed to do exactly that, being good alone and offering few means of group support. I wonder if you ever took a good look and saw how self-centered such a build is.
I don’t see being unbalanced. It specializes in doing a single thing, and does it well.
That thing just happens to work so well in PvP settings, and that’s what people are having issues with.

See, what’s you’re likely missing from our conversation is that i agree as well that something should be done.
But whereas you would just stupidly nerf everything he’s good with, missing the whole point of the specialization being specialized in doing that, i would rather change what it is specialized in.
More specifically, i would change some scrapper traits to make them group-wide, but lowering their individual efficency. Thus making it less good when alone, but offering better support in group situations compared to the current situation.

Azukas.1426:

It is not good for the game to have 1 class do what scrapper can currently do.

You need to choose. You want to hold a point on a scrapper that’s fine, but you’re damage needs a huge nerf then. You want to do that huge damage? That’s fine then you can’t sustain a fight worth a kitten. That’s balance.

No, that’s just a subset of things classes can do that just happens to do what’s most useful for keeping points. That’s the issue at hand.
A class can be good at both and still be balanced. Because it lacks other factors (like group support, in scrapper’s case).
The issue is not that he does those things well.
But rather, is that he does those specific things. As those are all that matters in the context he’s used for.

Azukas.1426:

I think you need to look at the entire picture of all the classes, core specs, and elite specs to understand. Take your time.

I could say the same to you. You’re completely missing the point, though.

You are only focusing on engineer. A look at the entire game yields a different PoV.

The fact a scrapper can pull of cele ele point holding, better damage, 1v1 like a boss, and do all this while wearing a marauder amulet is the problem. If you had to sacrifice damage to obtain that survivability it would be perfectly fine, but you do not. The damage coefficients on hammer along with the passives and survivability of traits + utilities are too much.

I honestly would be ok with engineers being able to take that amount of beating if you cut 30-40% of the damage they could do. Or keep the damage and make kitten sure they are dropping with ease while wearing a marauder amulet like the rest of the game.

Travis.3487:

I don’t understand why everyone wants a D/P nerf, Thief is kittening hard enough to play as it is. Why does d/p have to be nerfed? why not just buff the stuff that needs some love and make it as relevant as d/p. if you nerf D/P you get another useless weapon set and another weapon set will have to take it’s place probably staff. So imo d/p should stay as it is and the other sets should get a buff or rework.

Everyone doesn’t just a few who stick to DD.

The problem they don’t realize is DD is in a tough spot due to the other sets attached to it. (DP SD PD) The only skill it truly owns is DB. Normally I would say pump it’s damage up to match DP and PD 3 except we need to be mindful of the evade part. So to get that damage you’ll prolly have to see an increase in initiative requirements.

Buffing OH dagger 4 or 5 is something that prolly won’t happen due to PD SD. Another obstacle to DD is the fact it has the highest single target burst damage for a thief. So even in PvP you can 1 shot just about any class using a Yolo build. Even a marauder variant is going to hit like a truck when timed correctly.

So what I would do is increase the DB damage by 30-40%, increase dancing dagger damage by 20%, and restore CnD damage to the PvE damage in all aspects of the game.

Please let’s get off the DD v DP now

TheOneWhoSighs.7513:

Azukas.1426:

Levetty.1279:

Azukas.1426:

So I guess the “sky is falling” crowd are eating crow?

Yes, one bad Mesmer build that didn’t achieve much proves that Mesmer is fine in all game modes and isn’t suffering from severe design problems.

This is where I roll my eyes so you can really get the sarcasm.

This is where you realize Guardian, Thief, and Warrior didn’t even get looked at. This is also where you realize the discrepancy in team skill completely nullified any conclusions of that mesmers actual ceiling of contribution to a match.

Thank you for the input though

Guardian, Thief, and Warrior didn’t even get looked at, because why the heck would you take any of them over a second Revenant?
You should add Mesmer to that list.
Because again, why the heck would you take a mesmer over another Revenant?
Portal?
Meh.

It’s hard for me to validate portal and moa over everything else Rev brings.

We got in the finals. Heck I’m sure PZ ran mesmer against that same comp since Abjured ran it too. Pretty sure they had some success against it before.

May I remind everyone this isn’t DD v DP round 2.

This is what needs to happen for thief to be meta. I hear a lot about nerfing rev. I agree any class that takes 40% of the spots in PvP is performing too well and needs nerfing. I agree with BS buff due to it not hitting all that hard. BTW I’m only talking like 10% only.

Some good ideas and some people need to let kitten go.

Fat Disgrace.4275:

and what would be the boon prioritize? same as steal?

I would say might protection

Levetty.1279:

Azukas.1426:

So I guess the “sky is falling” crowd are eating crow?

Yes, one bad Mesmer build that didn’t achieve much proves that Mesmer is fine in all game modes and isn’t suffering from severe design problems.

This is where I roll my eyes so you can really get the sarcasm.

This is where you realize Guardian, Thief, and Warrior didn’t even get looked at. This is also where you realize the discrepancy in team skill completely nullified any conclusions of that mesmers actual ceiling of contribution to a match.

Thank you for the input though

Burtnik.5218:

I dont see any nerfs ideas here. Nerf it nao – really helpful

And as far i remember rev in rev week and bwe1 was trash so..?

Your best bet is to delete weapon swap tho. Core rev actually is in need of buffing and i will disagree with any nerfs to core.

Once again you need to re-read the OP. It clearly states let’s start brainstorming.

Now what I would honestly like to see is all classes be viable and teams take classes based on what players are best at playing.

To achieve any semblance of that revs need a serious nerf. Once again its time to not look only at the class you play but at the entire picture.

Mem no Fushia.7604:

Azukas.1426:

Keadron.9570:

How exactly is coming to the elementalist forum, saying they’re fine and anyone who disagrees is suffering from self entitlement syndrome in any way constructive?

Obviously the devs aren’t the greatest at balancing and coming together as a community to demand/suggest proper balance would be a boon for overall health of this game.

Now since HoT betas (not gonna even delve into the comments or whining during the DD cele ele era) ele players have been predicting trash tier for thier class. As a player who’s only interest is overall game balance I’ve had to wade through pages and pages of this while getting shouted down on trying to get overall balance achieved.

Meanwhile the entire time the ele class has never been in danger of not being meta.

I had hoped after the last round of “OMG ele so unviable now” being once again disproven we could get serious discussion on regards to game balance. The problem it seems though that being the most OP class to ever walk in this game has lead to a sense of self entitlement. I was hoping it was gone but I’m starting to think it’ll never leave now. Sad really

Hoping for class to be unviable isn’t issue its justice.

I don’t watch esports, I don’t visit metabattle and don’t care about what pro’ players bring to matchup. I’m rather weak player, but yet I will complain abut ele, becouse its lacks so much.

Ele didn’t get more build viability its just renamed from cele to auramancer.
————-
For sake of my gameplay I suggest trait in fireline that will remove retaliation from enemies whenever I burn them and reduce incoming dmg from retaliation by 50%. For sake of my meteor shower. + Geyser and Healing Rain instant cast. +Blast finisher in water to not be gated to eruption/arcane brilliance/arance wave.

Thanks for your input and I dont wish for ele to be unviable. Nope I want all classes to be viable instead.

That being said I do think the problems you are having is not class based persay but more along the lines of you needing to come to terms with your class. I came to terms with mine a long time ago, and actually realized somethings needed to be changed for the good of the game and for the bad for my class.

That’s ok b/c I do play all classes to some extent.

Jana.6831:

I think it’s a pity that you were around in that thread from start to finish – call yourself a thief expert – at least 2 people tried to explain the point to you multiple times – but you still didn’t get it.
But since you seem to be a nice person you used that very discussion in this thread as an opener to “get the discussion rolling, aight” – have fun, thief expert.

ETA: And btw – the thieves who are still around in this forum and have been for a long time know what the problem with “thief” is – contrahery to you – all of us don’t want buffs.
ETA²: Or if we want buffs it’s in case other classes won’t be nerfed or the stuff we once had access to is out of our reach. (CnD unblockable and applying blind).

I was posting in that thread since page 1. I did take a break I think due RL being busy I think.

As for what thief needs I think I’ve outlined it pretty well. We need to bring the rest of the game down instead of power creeping the hell out of the thief. Small minor tweaks I’ve stated are simply maybe a back stab buff due to extremely weak numbers i’ve seen being posted and having larc strike remove 2 boons again.

I also stated please start a thread about DD to discuss what we can do there. I do have ideas on how to make that set better, or you can start putting ideas here to discuss. It matters not.

One thing I’ve noticed is we have to keep in mind overall game balance, and the fact that anet isn’t the greatest at balancing.

Thank you

p.s. CnD is currently unblockable and blinds with GM trait + basi venom.

Burtnik.5218:

Burtnik.5218:

QQ in 3…2….1… bc teams runs 2 revs /shrug

I love to be right ;D

Theres only 1 thing that has to be toned down and its herald. They also played old comp (shield revs lmao) and eles carried them like a princess.

But its okay, lets base balance around “pro league” played by kids <cough>

Yes actually we will. They are over performing and need to be nerfed. They’ve been over performing since their introduction to the game….by design i might add.

It’s actually very simple. Nerf them. It doesn’t matter how it is done but the result in only at max 1 per team. I made this thread not as QQ but as an avenue to help the devs collect ideas on what is over performing on the class.

Jana.6831:

I’m not wrong and in fact a lot of people got my point and agreed with it.

So if staff is fine and no thief was in the finals how do you come to the conclusion that D/P needs a buff?

Never said DP needed a buff. I said a rev nerf with maybe a BS buff along with a SD buff could see thief back in meta. Other minor tweaks I would look into would be sustain/survive ones.

The important part is the absolute priority of corralling the elite specs that HoT introduced along with kitten slapping the rev in line. Once these things are done then we look into the classes that are not being represented in the meta because they might just become meta after the priority changes.

As for everyone agreeing with you about DP…I’m sorry but that debate was closed and won by yours truly. I support talks to buff under performing weaponsets on all classes. Create a “What can we do for DD” thread and I’ll contribute in spades. Just please never ever try to nerf something that isn’t OP just because you pigeonholed yourself to a weaker weaponset.

Thanks.

Quadox.7834:

No please don’t buff condi mesmer and chrono (shield). They are already the best out of the mesmer builds ATM probably. Buff focus, sword offhand, etc. Instead

While I agree, I honestly have to make a serious point here.

Anet has been historically horrible at balancing this game. What I believe we need to find is ONE viable build per class that teams can interchange based on what each player is best at playing. Right now mesmer isn’t what it was before the nerfs, and we need to focus on getting a build that is good for the game propelled to the fore front of PvP.

Now I’m all for having complete control of your builds and diversity to each class, but at some point in time we need to realize who’s steering the ship. Our captain can’t navigate dangerous shoals and clearly needs wide open water only.

Manuhell.2759:

Azukas.1426:

You just showed yourself what it is you don’t see. Every time you have a class who’s doing the big damage while traiting completely defensively you ALWAYS get the out come of “Too stronk”. Especially in this game GW2.

Mostly defensively, i wrote (there is HGH there too, to provide some might). And then there is the scrapper line. That isn’t just about defense – it’s about being a frontline, melee fighter. And that means also having enough damage to warrant that choice, be it via traits or the instruments provided (and the meta build indeed uses Perfectly Weighted, the only hammer trait they’ve got there).
Also, that’s just how the mechanics work. Attack stats are much more important than defensive ones due to how they interact with each else. That’s nothing new.

Azukas.1426:

What you believe is logical and acceptable is not the truth. This just absolutely confirms you’re beliefs on balance should be disregarded. For example what would you say to say a shatter mesmer who could 1v2 and keep points while doing so? OMGNERFMEOWANETZ!! is what I’d imagine right? How about a thief who could 1v1 anyone, 1v2, and kite 1v3 all the while never losing a point? I’m all for having people be able to over perform based on skill, but you have to have a line where its only based on skill….not over performing classes.

Either damage or dem survives has to be nerfed significantly. Pick one.

Thank you

I could say the same about your beliefs. You are comparing a thief and a shatter mesmer with an elite spec that was designed specifically to make melee fighters out of engineers. That’s just not their role. Of course they won’t perform well if you force them to do so.
And such a build disregards anything else in order to bring that offense and survivability. That’s also the reason why no one bothers using it in any other mode.
The sustain and damage you’re complaining about don’t come for free, you know.
All you’re doing is screaming “OMGNERF”, but you don’t even comprehend what’s the actual issue. You’re just saying that having purely offensive stats (and some traits) shouldn’t warrant good damage, and having a ton of defensive traits shouldn’t warrant good means of defense. That’s crazy.
The scrapper is doing exactly what’s supposed to do.
If there is an issue with pvp modes, it’s that “what’s supposed to do” ends up making him extremely suitable to defending and controlling points, especially when alone (as it’s mostly about selfish support/sustain, anyway).
The solution you provide is to slap some nerf to take what he’s supposed to do and make it weak even in that regard. That’s just stupid.
If anything, what should be done is to change what he’s supposed to do. Make it less good when alone and better in groups by changing some of the scrapper traits, so that the end result would be less suitable to defending points in 1vsX situations.

Once again you are just arguing against yourself and not looking at the big picture.

You literally are only focusing on “Anet said I was supposed to do this so that’s what this is!!” and disregarding actual game balance. Did you watch the finals? You see the engineer from Rank 55 finish killing the lord while being wailed on by another player from Team PZ while wearing a marauder amulet? In what world do you honestly believe that is ok?

It is not good for the game to have 1 class do what scrapper can currently do. You need to choose. You want to hold a point on a scrapper that’s fine, but you’re damage needs a huge nerf then. You want to do that huge damage? That’s fine then you can’t sustain a fight worth a kitten. That’s balance.

I think you need to look at the entire picture of all the classes, core specs, and elite specs to understand. Take your time.

Staff is fine and would need close watch on its power if proper balancing to the rest of the game took place.

In fact in a perfectly balanced game vault would need it’s damage nerfed by 30% or more. We are no where close to that so don’t worry.

It’s ok to refuse to admit your wrong but let’s work together

Honestly the best changes for mesmer right now is the proper nerfing of the classes in the finals.

If we can get revs down to 1 slot max per team along with proper power creep nerfs we’d prolly be in a VERY good spot. You’d have to keep an eye on the healing/condi builds but power might make a come back if anet did it right.

Ithilwen.1529:

I also main Mesmer. You must not have been playing long. D/d ele, Hambow warrior, machine gun ranger.. to name just some of the more prominent ones.

You know what feedback I got every time? Even when 5 man Hambow teams were crushing everything in sight? “Learn to Play.”

I now return that to the pro league. Learn to play, boys.

I said cancerous not OP. There is a significant difference.

Cancer kills. Watching games that only ended because time ran out was perhaps the most disastrous time in GW2 PvP. The cancer that caused that era? Chrono bunker.

You know how you treat cancer? You gut that kitten then nuke the kitten out of it to make sure it dies and never comes back. There’s collateral damage but the host is more important.

That’s what happened and as a mesmer main I support it 100% because being able to play this game years down the road is a heck of a lot more important than a few months of playing with my OP class.

Thank you

Keadron.9570:

And now it seems you have joined those shouting down rather than rising above. If you want balance that’s great but goin how you have in this thread isn’t going to help you. It just makes you out to be a

I started the thread in a very open and constructive way.

I literally asked for ideas to change about the entire game….lol

Once again please leave your ideas.

Ithilwen.1529:

All those poor pro league players sniff. The were so scared of Mesmer that they couldn’t learn to play against it. They needed to QQ it right out of the game. The poor dears, so scared.

Maybe they ought to learn to play in a situation that isn’t exactly what they want. It would also help if they could play without being waited on hand and foot by anet.

I main mesmer and I thoroughly support the gutting of chrono bunker. It was the cancerous build to EVER exist in GW2 PvP. It needed to go in HoT betas and the fact it lasted so long is a slap in all of our faces. I cannot even imagine how many players quit this game because of that kitten……

So after the pro league finals we saw not one thief present.

So before I get to suggestions on what can get thief in meta ima gowing to ask a simple question:

Y’all on board with DP not needing nerfs now?

I honestly believe a rev nerf done right would allow thief to enter meta along with minimal thief buffs. I would buff the boon strip on SD back to 2. I would slightly increase back stab and see what happens. I also advocate for less AoE kitten storm game play from all the other classes.

Thoughts?

You have to be VERY careful in buffing SD. At one point in time it was entirely TOO strong. In fact SD can easily become too strong today if you buff it a shade too much.

I can understand why anet would be cautious with it and I understand you’re frustration. Just please for overall game health understand why baby steps are needed.

Though flanking/LS needs to rip 2 boons again with proper boon prioritization in place.

Keadron.9570:

How exactly is coming to the elementalist forum, saying they’re fine and anyone who disagrees is suffering from self entitlement syndrome in any way constructive?

Obviously the devs aren’t the greatest at balancing and coming together as a community to demand/suggest proper balance would be a boon for overall health of this game.

Now since HoT betas (not gonna even delve into the comments or whining during the DD cele ele era) ele players have been predicting trash tier for thier class. As a player who’s only interest is overall game balance I’ve had to wade through pages and pages of this while getting shouted down on trying to get overall balance achieved.

Meanwhile the entire time the ele class has never been in danger of not being meta.

I had hoped after the last round of “OMG ele so unviable now” being once again disproven we could get serious discussion on regards to game balance. The problem it seems though that being the most OP class to ever walk in this game has lead to a sense of self entitlement. I was hoping it was gone but I’m starting to think it’ll never leave now. Sad really

To significantly nerf this class in regards to PvP.

After watching the finals rev was the most used class and the only one stacked. 3 classes saw zero representation and 2 saw 1 instance of representation. BTW no team who didn’t have 2x rev made it to the finals.

So let’s brainstorm on what we would do to tone down the class.

Thanks

Keadron.9570:

Azukas.1426:

reikken.4961:

In a team game, support always has a place. Ele is the best class at support. However, it is indeed trash tier at doing anything else. Ele has literally 1 build. If you were paying attention, that is what people (who know what they’re talking about) have been complaining about.

So ele has one build…same can be said for necro engi mesmer and ranger. The only class that has more is rev who btw was the only stacked class.

The rest of the classes have zero builds.

Ele is fine and the players who playou it have nothing to complain about and should just be filed under misplaced self entitlement

Necro engi and ranger all have more than one build. Mesmer doesn’t really have a good one so I’ll give you that. As for your self entitlement claim if you could shove that, I’d appreciate it. Thanks have a nice day

More than one was used in the finals??? Either way you can’t deny every team had an ele and complaining about ur defined role is spitting in the faces of all the Guardian Mesmer Ranger Thief and Warrior players out there

Perfect example of EPSES (Ele Player Self Entitlement Syndrome)

So what needs toning down I’ve noticed not one of ya want to be constructive.

reikken.4961:

In a team game, support always has a place. Ele is the best class at support. However, it is indeed trash tier at doing anything else. Ele has literally 1 build. If you were paying attention, that is what people (who know what they’re talking about) have been complaining about.

So ele has one build…same can be said for necro engi mesmer and ranger. The only class that has more is rev who btw was the only stacked class.

The rest of the classes have zero builds.

Ele is fine and the players who playou it have nothing to complain about and should just be filed under misplaced self entitlement

Exciton.8942:

Rnk 55 won the final 3:1 against abjured.
The two temple matches in final and semifinal are truly amazing.

I really couldn’t get excited tbh.

I was voting for Vermilion after watching their intro vid ^^

One of the 55 kids literally looked 15 yrs old LOL

Manuhell.2759:

Azukas.1426:

Scrapper wasnt nerfed enough last balance patch. In terms of overall health of the game the current meta build needs to be toned down significantly in terms of either damage or survivability.

I understand that there are a lot of Homers of this forum but please realize that for the good of the game is a,real thing. A marauder amulet wearing class with scrapper survivability is bad for that btw.

Also remember this isn’t about the changes the other elites need. We all know and will voice them in the proper areas. This is about the brokenness of scrapper.

I still don’t see where is the “brokenness”.
It uses offensive stats, of course…but it also adds two trait lines that are mostly about sustain and defense and another that’s all about being a melee fighter (and provides self-sustain and other means to do so).
The end result is perfectly logical.
The “issue”, if we want to call it like that, is just that it is extremely suited to a mode that’s based over fighting inside a small circle while usually being alone.
And mostly useless in any other mode, i should add. Almost all the traits are about empowering the user itself, or giving support to a single ally in a case (bunker down med kits). A trait like HGH is terrible in group settings, as other classes can provide that might to the group far better. And the group support provided by such a build is very limited.

It doesn’t need to be “toned down”. It uses mainly offensive stats, two defensive line that are selfish for the most part, and it adds a line that’s all about being a frontline fighter and having the tools to do so. It is extremely specialized, and it has to do that well. It wouldn’t make sense otherwise.
What can be reasonabily done is to change its scope. If the scrapper line offers too much self-sustain, change it into group sustain (so that it’s weaker in 1vsX situations, and better in XvX situations). Alter the design, instead of gutting the end result.

Also, if we were to talk about “the good of the game”, the first thing that should be done would be about splitting balance instead of making things useless in any other mode as they usually do by balancing over PvP. Like they did with turrets – yet another thing designed to do a specific thing – controlling and defending an area – and that was gutted down just because it did exactly what it was designed to do.

You just showed yourself what it is you don’t see. Every time you have a class who’s doing the big damage while traiting completely defensively you ALWAYS get the out come of “Too stronk”. Especially in this game GW2.

What you believe is logical and acceptable is not the truth. This just absolutely confirms you’re beliefs on balance should be disregarded. For example what would you say to say a shatter mesmer who could 1v2 and keep points while doing so? OMGNERFMEOWANETZ!! is what I’d imagine right? How about a thief who could 1v1 anyone, 1v2, and kite 1v3 all the while never losing a point? I’m all for having people be able to over perform based on skill, but you have to have a line where its only based on skill….not over performing classes.

Either damage or dem survives has to be nerfed significantly. Pick one.

Thank you

Menem.4307:

Why bring a Thief, Guardian, or Warrior when a Revenant can do everything they can do and better?

Need to make it so more than 1 is detrimental to the team. How ya do that is up to the ppl getting paid to do it

Revs need some serious nerfs. Mesmers got absolutely wailed by the nerd bat while revs were at best scolded.

I agree with the mesmer nerfs yet where are the Rev ones?

Exedore.6320:

I’d like to add:
All elite specs. No 3x core.

Yes this is true as well and further confirms that HoT is P2W

Yet every team in the finals ran 1.

Can we now move all conversations about game balance and not woe is me? Besides nerfing of revs what part of ele or other classes need to be change so the unrepresented classes can get a turn?

thx

Exciton.8942:

messiah.1908:

the condi mes wasnt a condi rule rather decaper . kitten
i hardly see condi pressure out of him so its hard to see how valuable was he

but nice to see condi mes nevertheless

Team levels are too different. You won’t see anything out of him regardless.

Ding Ding Winner here.

Nova Stiker.8396:

#NeedsMorePowerCreep

#needsmoarrevnerfs

In any of the semi final games. We saw 1 mesmer and 1 ranger.

7 Revs
4 Eles
4 Necro
3 Engi
1 Mesmer
1 Ranger

LOL funny

messiah.1908:

Azukas.1426:

Exciton.8942:

Azukas.1426:

So I guess the “sky is falling” crowd are eating crow?

Sky won’t fall as ppl can easily give up mesmer and switch to more powerful specs.

But where are the druids, thieves, and warriors???

yes should take thief for decap or rev

Dem condi doh

Exciton.8942:

Azukas.1426:

So I guess the “sky is falling” crowd are eating crow?

Sky won’t fall as ppl can easily give up mesmer and switch to more powerful specs.

But where are the druids, thieves, and warriors???