I don’t know how you can clear all conditions and kill all clones =) Just can’t imagine. Only possible way to kill me as a thief is: one “disable” attack with some autoattacks, i use F4, then run away, wait, use venom and attack me again. Or pray to a.net gods for lucky critical hits. In another way staff thieves are more hopeless, because they can’t reduce the distance fast enough.
We’re not talking about WvW. Game isn’t balanced around it.
As a mesmer main I can tell you the staff acro build is what you need to look into.
That being said it’s not meta for a reason and you could be severely gimping your team running it.
When i see staff thief i just teleport (or 2 on staff) and autoattack. He will die from auto after losing all initiative. As a mesmer i dont see good solution in this situation for thieves.
No that’s not going to work. That build clears condi on evade. The amount of evades you get from Daredevil, Acro, and staff 3 &5 will keep your conditions off. Then the staff skill 4 is a ranged CoE blind that will kill your clones while blinding you. The dodge they use bound will not only clear condi but also kill your clones while hitting you for harder than shadow shot.
A good player on thief will keep you blinded, dodge tons of your & your clones attacks to shed your condis, and also pump out some serious damage. Now if they use D/P as their secondary weapon they are now able to chain stealths.
Also you also fail to realize you can chain your attacks/dodges for some serious invuln frames. A really common tactic is dodge > 3 > vault. The thief is literally only vulnerable during the end of the vault meanwhile you’ve taken 4k Bound, 2-3k dodge skill, and have the potential of facing a 5k bound.
Now the really good thieves won’t even use bound in a 1v1. They’ll just negate all your damage with evades and blind while pumping auto chains into you.
Staff is legit
No its just necro is more obvious as they are the focus of the enemy team. Sometimes when a necro dies it is because they suck. More often it is because:
1, Their teammates are missing all their skills to pressure the people chasing the necro
2, The ele spams all their heal on a necro in death shroud
3, The support classes chase their low target who has more sustain than the necro whilst the entire enemy team chases the necro. Who dies first? The enemy engi with 1000 sustain or your necro with 0?
You took that bait hard LOL
IMHO rangers are the worst.
Meh 3/10
Trying too hard to bait with it being too obvious
As a mesmer main I can tell you the staff acro build is what you need to look into.
That being said it’s not meta for a reason and you could be severely gimping your team running it.
Most NA players left the game a long time ago.
It’s true in all phases of the game.
I disagree with this being the worst season yet.
I honestly think it has been the best season compared to the last 4 seasons. Do some tweaks still need to be made? Hell yeah, but the ship is pointed in the right direction now so it should be pretty easy.
I think they need to focus on correctly identifying player skill levels, and clean up their placement matches. I will concede on those arguments as they are true.
This must be necro players screaming to nerf other classes month.
1st a thief nerf LOL
2nd now a mesmer nerf
Mesmers are fine in the grand scheme of things right now. You should prolly just learn how to rotate better and queue with a friend on support to just face roll games.
Still waiting on valid argument that proves PI is OP
Sorry guys, Azukas has ignored or dismissed everything you’ve said, deeming them as invalid. Threads over. Judge has spoken.
Trying to hard mate. Need to bring some facts to the table
Still waiting on valid argument that proves PI is OP
Irrelevant. besides. 2 thief comp is most likely really good in ranked.
The problem is there are many builds and classes which cannot exist because of A SINGLE TRAIT. Everytime I die…I would say like 50% of them are to thieves. And then I look at kill feed. Its 12k PI procs. 3 procs for 12k……Not to mention the easy 8k backstabs with no counter play.
You can’t do anything against it short of not casting spells. If you dont cast spells you die anyway. Mesmer and warrior might also be really strong but it isn’t even comparable.
Want to play damage ele? Nope, PI. Want to play damage mesmer? Nope, PI. Want to play condi necro? Nope, PI. Want to play power ranger? Nope, PI.
As for thieves moaning about killing too slow. Like really? You still kill an ele 1v1 easily. It takes like 30 seconds. Do you need to 1 shot everything or something?
The whole game is miserable because of passive 12k damage from instant cast ranged dazes. Headshot is amazing without PI. It can interrupt anything. Now with PI you add massive damage to this amazing skill.
This thief spec, I have heard, is also the easiest to play. Lastly, this isn’t some top tier thing. My rating is 1900 before decay and when levelling up there were 1500 rated thieves who caused me serious issues purely due to PI passive procs with zero counter play. You already have 9k backstabs and auto attacks that hit like a warrior….
This is the most OP build I have seen in my 2 years playing this game.
- 2 thieves is not a good comp given same skill level across 2 teams. It is guaranteed loss.
- Many builds that can’t exist because of a single trait? Like what. Give me some examples. Of course you would die a lot to thieves, you are a necro, a thief would be dumb not to focus you. You know what my death log looks like on scrapper? Poison, torment, burning, etc. By your logic necros need hefty nerfs because as a scrapper i might as well afk at spawn if enemy has a necro.- 3 Pi for 12k ? It is 4k PI per proc, it usually hits for 3k on a good day, please post screenshot of that death log. Once again, i take more damage from necro weapon swap alone than PI will ever do. 8k backstab on necro? How? Did you afk or something? 8k backstab on a necro is not happening unless you have crapload of vulnerability on you and thief has might stacks. Given how necro applies weakness 24/7 i don’t see 8k backstabs happening. Also, backstab has plenty of counters…. (blocks, blinds, invuls, protection, etc.).
- FA ele doesn.t fail because of PI, FA ele dies to literary everything in this meta. Nobody played thieves in s1, where were all those FA eles? RRrrright, nobody played them despite thieves not existing in pvp.
- Actually people play dps mes, it is just not as good as condi build atm. Once again, when thieves didn’t exist in s1, nobody bothered playing shatter – your point is
- HS can’t interrupt everything due to reflects, stab, blocks, blinds etc. 3k is hardly a massive dmg…. especially on tanky builds like druid.
- then why don’t you play it when it is so easy? Go play that “easy” spec, post some videos of your epic plays, in plat please.
- once again, you play necro, there is a class that counters you, deal with it. Also, there are counters to PI, it is your choice not to use them.
- so which is it 8k backstabs or 9k lol? The number seems to increase with every line you type lol.
- yeaaaah, too bad thief doesn’t have sustain of a warrior and can stay in melee only for like 2 sec.
- pretty sure revs at HoT launch were more broken lol. Also, you clearly didn’t experience dhumfire necros xD
This was a good try though, Henry. I wouldn’t bite but certain people take it really serious.
@apharma.3741: assuming same skill level and everyone running meta, i am pretty sure double thief team is more at disadvantage than double mes or double necro comp. You may win some fights but thief is simply not capable of holding point and points win games.
Come on dude. I know that you know thief is op and pi in particular is broken. Look what they did to dhuumfire. They nerfed it into oblivion. Your best bet would be to argue for how to nerf pi but not make it worthless. By saying its not op you lose credibility.
Maybe a 15% damage reduction? Maybe a ten second icd? The trait would still be good in both cases.
I would nerf the dps by 15% and make it not proc on auto attacks. This nerf might not be enough, but it would be a start towards fixing the game.
I wouldnt know about hot revs as i have only played gw2 hot for 5 weeks
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/ALL-Thieves-are-so-bad-at-rotating/first#post6463644
After reading that thread I can honestly see why you have a problem with PI.
Its not the trait being broken in any form
Mesmers have zero reason to fear thieves in meta vs meta.
If u fight a thief using PI I know he has no condi clear. As long as your smart you can out play the thief.
Now a Bounding staff thief that clears condi on evade is a different story, but that’s clearly not meta and has zero impact on this dead thread since no PI is used.
But you are also assuming the thief’s enemy is stupid enough to not know how to counter PI.
You’re assuming all classes even have the capability to handle PI. Some classes’s only option when dealing with a thief is to keel over and die.
You are literally pushing your own point w/out the full picture in mind. In the grand scheme of things thief and PI is perfectly balanced, and in most cases thief remains underpowered. Now if you all want to quote Senor Helseth you have to remember he’s basing his opinion off his duels vs a staff thief.
I have not commented on Helseth’s opinions nor have I referenced them, yet you are trying push them on me.
Qbind stow weapon and break LOS
Those,are available to all classes.
Again address my original post before continuing because until you disprove that this entire discussion is over.
Just out rotate them and use your portal plays. You will beat the bad DH’s if you are really good on mesmer, but general rule of thumb is avoid.
Wait, is there actually some profession you shouldn’t avoid as mesmer?
No there isn’t because mesmer is a class that will let you take it as far as your personal skill goes.
You should destroy revs, necros, and META thieves. You can beat the rest based on your skill level and the ONLY class you really are countered pretty strongly by is DH. Now I’m FAR from the best mesmer in the game, and I lose to just about every class at times. Those are b/c I lost them, and never b/c the game lost them.
Clear it up for ya?
Headshot on its own can not kill you. if it does you have L2p issues. A thief that uses headshot over shadow shot to do damage against a player that is not being interrupted is wasting INI and not doing damage. There are multiple ways of juking that person into using headshot that will result in it being a wasted use of INI and people have been giving them.
If you do not have stability/blocks dodges or invuln use weapon stow or LOS.For the last time:
I
am
assuming
the
thief
is
smart
enough
to
only
headshot
actual
castsPlease stop making points on the assumption of the thief being incompetent.
Weapon stowing is irrelevant because headshot goes off faster than the human reaction time.
LoS is irrelevant because the thief has the mobility to make it irrelevant.
But you are also assuming the thief’s enemy is stupid enough to not know how to counter PI.
You are literally pushing your own point w/out the full picture in mind. In the grand scheme of things thief and PI is perfectly balanced, and in most cases thief remains underpowered. Now if you all want to quote Senor Helseth you have to remember he’s basing his opinion off his duels vs a staff thief.
Staff thief doesn’t use PI FYI
Game population will not allow for solo/team q. The majority of players play soloq and thats why they went with it.
Now I understand why its,frustrating to not be,able to queue with your team but the overall health of the game,is > your desire to teamq
Also a five man on VOIP vs all soloq duos is the exact definition of non competitive gaming, and THAT was happening all the time.
Ok so here’s the part that has yet to be defined by Helseth.
“Optimized thief”
Define optimized before I weigh in please b/c if it’s what I think you mean than this will be easy.
Right now we have 1/2 of the pro thief players weighing in vs a pro mesmer. Sind is biased towards thief b/c he plays thief and helseth is biased against thief b/c he’s always hated them since like 2013.
Please define “optimized thief”
Good question,!
The image I had in my mind when writing optimized thief is basically the highest level of gameplay I know of for the class. There is a huge difference between someone being ’’ok’’ at something and someone being ’’opimized’’
For intance, people use me as a benchmark for how mesmer does in duels. Most mesmers playing vs most DHs have no chance right? However, when I play it, the ’’optimized’’, I beat 99% of the DHS out there.
Does this mean that mesmer beats DH? No, because once I face an optimized DH (drazeh) I get completelly destroyed. Like the matchup is impossible.
So I guess my definition is ‘’the best player in this matchup vs the best player in this matchup’‘. This opinion is still subject to change since new craft is found all the time, but it’s the best we got when crafting.
Drazeh (most definitely the best dueling thief in the game) melts any ele 1v1. We can use this to say that an ’’optimized’’ thief beats ele.
So your saying you are,losing duels in under a minute vs draz running the D/P dash meta build?
Ok so here’s the part that has yet to be defined by Helseth.
“Optimized thief”
Define optimized before I weigh in please b/c if it’s what I think you mean than this will be easy.
Right now we have 1/2 of the pro thief players weighing in vs a pro mesmer. Sind is biased towards thief b/c he plays thief and helseth is biased against thief b/c he’s always hated them since like 2013.
Please define “optimized thief”
thief’s always been in a disadvantage dueling vs other classes all the way until HoT introduced staff and d/d condi builds
Go back about two years, and Thief ate Mesmer alive in PvP. Balance changes in the leadup to Heart of Thorns, and the eventual release of Chronomancer and the advent of the Chronobunker, changed that, and things are more balanced now. But there was a very long period from two to three years ago where Thieves ate Mesmers alive in PvP, to the extent that the Mesmer class was viewed as a liability for teams because of the presence of Thieves in the meta.
Once the SD was nerfed it changed for us mesmers. It was about a year total of complete hard counter. Afterwards it wasn’t nearly as bad as,most mesmers cry on about and in a straight 1v1 a better mesmer beat a worse thief player.
Just out rotate them and use your portal plays. You will beat the bad DH’s if you are really good on mesmer, but general rule of thumb is avoid.
DH’s strength is unorganized teams and players who can’t properly rotate. That gets strengthened when they stack em.
They are weak to proper rotations that exploit their mobility and properly timed bursts once their CD’s are down or happen so fast and hard they can’t react.
Actually the only class that could possibly need adjustments is Warrior. I would increase the skill floor on it by adjusting/removing passives.
Mesmers are actually in a decent spot atm and thieves are the farthest from being OP
Yeah because you see so many warriors from the top echelon players, ohhh wait
Raising the skill floor of a class is a good thing, and it honestly rewards players who deserve it. GW2 PvP severely suffers to low skill floor PvP since HoT’s introduction, and it’s time to raise it whenever possible.
The amount of people defending a broken design is absolutely ridiculous. Have you thief players ever stopped and considered that the fact that thief is so reliant on these cheese gimmicks is because part of the design of the class is flawed? No, putting an ICD on ID will not kill thief, it just won’t.
But what I really can’t understand is why you thief players so adamantly defend cheese mechanics on a thief. Every single time it comes up you guys come rushing in with “But we need it! Otherwise thief will be trash.” Its either “Its not OP” (which doesn’t mean it isn’t a fundamentally flawed design) or “if you nerf/remove this thief will never be competitive again”. If you rely on 1 or 2 cheese gimmicks to be competitive (which you actually don’t anyway) then the class needs to be redesigned.
Quit kittening whining and get out of denial. Some features of your class are just pure bad design and need to be redone. And when they are, thief will no longer be this one trick pony that it is right now, you will no longer be reliant on cheese mechanics just to be effective.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Power_Block
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mistrustvs
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pulmonary_Impact_
PI can’t crit, but power block can. Mistrust gives out 4 stacks of confusion which is insane damage that will eclipse a PI proc with like 1-2 tics + skill use.
Oh and I main mesmer so before you go on about headshot being spammable or some other kitten we mesmers can chain interrupts just as well.
So like I said until one of you refutes my original post please let this thread die.
Thank You
No one needs to refute your original post because all it is doing is trying to derail this thread, exactly like you are doing with this post. This is a thread about thiefs, not mesmers. Even then though, yes mesmers can chain interrupts but it requires more than 1 skill on the bar to do so, unlike thief. To chain 3 interrupts, a mesmer would have to use 3 different skills on their bar, and power lock has a 4 second cooldown itself regardless. Thief only has to burn 1 skill to do the same thing. This thread is about thieves however, not about mesmers. Trying to turn the discussion back to mesmers is doing nothing more than trying to derail the thread because you can’t actually defend the point at hand.
Huh? Is this a serious post or are you really posting this?
Please let me know
Thank you
That pretty much confirms what I initially thought and now is the time for you to honestly put some time into PvP. Focus on the classes you have issues with (like thief) and learn the ways to counter what they do.
See you have it easy b/c mesmer actually counters thief right now. Back in the day most of us mesmer mains had to learn how to fight thieves when we were hard countered by them.
If you need help look up the pro mesmers streams and duel your guildies/friends/enemies constantly. PvP takes lots of practice and the willingness to learn instead of blame Anet.
Thank you
Actually the only class that could possibly need adjustments is Warrior. I would increase the skill floor on it by adjusting/removing passives.
Mesmers are actually in a decent spot atm and thieves are the farthest from being OP
4k PI is definitely doable. Not the result of the meta build in most circumstances per se, but easily doable considering it only requires like a 7.5k backstab crit -equivalent of power given marauder amulet.
So like DA with Executioner + EW and Bound + Lead Attacks on Trickery will get you there with no problems.
The meta build is basically that w/out bound instead of dash. An extra 10% damage isn’t going to get you 4k PI’s.
Like I said earlier I’m waiting for someone to actually refute my previous points that pretty much put this thread to rest. All we have now is ppl posting more thinking that will validate this farce.
So by your irrefutable math PI hits for 4k in PvP……yeah I’ma just let you truck on with that one.
Defense rests.
Next.
If you want to do the math I laid it all out there for you to check. The reason PI doesn’t usually do 4k in PvP is many targets have protection when it hits as it’s a delayed hit. Still doesn’t change the base damage of the skill or how strong it is.
What defence? You haven’t disproved a single thing I’ve put where as I have put factual information backed up with mathematics which the game is based on.
PI doesn’t hit for 4k in PvP
Consider yourself disproven
This is just nitpicky. But if someone has protection up, PI only has to hit for 2,680 for it to have done 4,000 damage to someone without prot. Besides, you haven’t disproven anything, all you’ve done is say
“It doesn’t happen, therefore you are wrong.”
That’s not proving anything, its almost the exact opposite of debating
You’re not going to hit for 2600 on someone with protection b/c you will never hit 4k. It’s as simple as that
So by your irrefutable math PI hits for 4k in PvP……yeah I’ma just let you truck on with that one.
Defense rests.
Next.
If you want to do the math I laid it all out there for you to check. The reason PI doesn’t usually do 4k in PvP is many targets have protection when it hits as it’s a delayed hit. Still doesn’t change the base damage of the skill or how strong it is.
What defence? You haven’t disproved a single thing I’ve put where as I have put factual information backed up with mathematics which the game is based on.
PI doesn’t hit for 4k in PvP
Consider yourself disproven
The amount of people defending a broken design is absolutely ridiculous. Have you thief players ever stopped and considered that the fact that thief is so reliant on these cheese gimmicks is because part of the design of the class is flawed? No, putting an ICD on ID will not kill thief, it just won’t.
But what I really can’t understand is why you thief players so adamantly defend cheese mechanics on a thief. Every single time it comes up you guys come rushing in with “But we need it! Otherwise thief will be trash.” Its either “Its not OP” (which doesn’t mean it isn’t a fundamentally flawed design) or “if you nerf/remove this thief will never be competitive again”. If you rely on 1 or 2 cheese gimmicks to be competitive (which you actually don’t anyway) then the class needs to be redesigned.
Quit kittening whining and get out of denial. Some features of your class are just pure bad design and need to be redone. And when they are, thief will no longer be this one trick pony that it is right now, you will no longer be reliant on cheese mechanics just to be effective.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Power_Block
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mistrustvs
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pulmonary_Impact_
PI can’t crit, but power block can. Mistrust gives out 4 stacks of confusion which is insane damage that will eclipse a PI proc with like 1-2 tics + skill use.
Oh and I main mesmer so before you go on about headshot being spammable or some other kitten we mesmers can chain interrupts just as well.
So like I said until one of you refutes my original post please let this thread die.
Thank You
Ok, lets talk about factually incorrect statements.
“PI can’t crit, but power block can. Mistrust gives out 4 stacks of confusion which is insane damage that will eclipse a PI proc with like 1-2 tics + skill use.”
Confusion damage formula for background tick = (0.035 Condition Damage) + 10
Confusion damage formula for on activation = (0.0625 Condition Damage) + 49.5So with carrion amulet it looks like:
((0.035 X 1200) + 10) X 4 = 208
((0.0625 X 1200) + 49.5) X 4 = 498So 1-2 ticks and a skill use you will take 208+208+498 = 914 damage
Even if we calculate the full background tick for 6s you only take 1232 and would need quite a few skill activation hits to get to 4k.PI is a 3.28 coefficient and the damage formula is as follows:
Damage done = (Weapon strength) X Power X (skill-specific coefficient) / (target’s Armor)You also have to factor in multipliers which the thief has a 10% minor in DA and will have at least 5 of the lead attacks buff.
(2225 X 3.28 X 952.5/2000) X (1.10 X 1.05) = 4014
So no, mistrust won’t do even close to PI levels of damage.
Now for power block.
It has a 1.5 coefficient so on the same target and assuming we get about a 10% damage increase through vulnerability with berserker amulet and greatsword the formula looks as below:(2375 X 1.5 X 1047.5/2000) X (1.10) = 2052
It can crit so we’ll assume it does for 110% more damage and it looks like 4310.
That is more than PI, however there are differences between the two skills. Power block needs precision and ferocity to hit as hard as PI and there’s also other advantages to power block that you use it for, namely the increased cool downs. There’s also the potential for procing it where thief has much more use of interrupts than the mesmer per investment. The realistic damage from power block though is about 3k as you’re sitting on just over 50% crit chance.
Edit: Tbh you really can’t compare power block with PI very well and I’ve also weighted everything in the mesmers favour here, using sword will reduce the damage and running marauder will equally reduce damage both on crit and without.
Perhaps someone might want to compare other on interrupt damage or condition applications and see how they measure up to PI?
Edit 2: I can only really find a warrior on interrupt trait which applies 4s confusion for 8s which would do more damage than mistrust (on single targets) but less in team fights. It’s worth noting that mistrust can score high numbers if you interrupt 2-3 people in a group and they don’t realise, the draw back though is better AoE cleansing and that the mesmer would lack certain defenses afforded by the current meta build.
So by your irrefutable math PI hits for 4k in PvP……yeah I’ma just let you truck on with that one.
Defense rests.
Next.
The amount of people defending a broken design is absolutely ridiculous. Have you thief players ever stopped and considered that the fact that thief is so reliant on these cheese gimmicks is because part of the design of the class is flawed? No, putting an ICD on ID will not kill thief, it just won’t.
But what I really can’t understand is why you thief players so adamantly defend cheese mechanics on a thief. Every single time it comes up you guys come rushing in with “But we need it! Otherwise thief will be trash.” Its either “Its not OP” (which doesn’t mean it isn’t a fundamentally flawed design) or “if you nerf/remove this thief will never be competitive again”. If you rely on 1 or 2 cheese gimmicks to be competitive (which you actually don’t anyway) then the class needs to be redesigned.
Quit kittening whining and get out of denial. Some features of your class are just pure bad design and need to be redone. And when they are, thief will no longer be this one trick pony that it is right now, you will no longer be reliant on cheese mechanics just to be effective.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Power_Block
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mistrustvs
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pulmonary_Impact_
PI can’t crit, but power block can. Mistrust gives out 4 stacks of confusion which is insane damage that will eclipse a PI proc with like 1-2 tics + skill use.
Oh and I main mesmer so before you go on about headshot being spammable or some other kitten we mesmers can chain interrupts just as well.
So like I said until one of you refutes my original post please let this thread die.
Thank You
No one needs to refute your original post because all it is doing is trying to derail this thread, exactly like you are doing with this post. This is a thread about thiefs, not mesmers. Even then though, yes mesmers can chain interrupts but it requires more than 1 skill on the bar to do so, unlike thief. To chain 3 interrupts, a mesmer would have to use 3 different skills on their bar, and power lock has a 4 second cooldown itself regardless. Thief only has to burn 1 skill to do the same thing. This thread is about thieves however, not about mesmers. Trying to turn the discussion back to mesmers is doing nothing more than trying to derail the thread because you can’t actually defend the point at hand.
Huh? Is this a serious post or are you really posting this?
Please let me know
Thank you
From my experience with Necro I would say staff is pretty much a staple in all forms of PvP. The damage is actually great with all else that it does.
The problem I really have with buffing staff is that it’s damage is unblockable (generally) and it really does have a low skill floor/ceiling.
I mean let’s face it Necros win team fights. You get decent support on a necro and you can literally just wreck a team fight like no other class in this game. If you buff staff then it would honestly put necros in the realm of DH in terms of skill floor vs reward.
I don’t want that and nobody here should either. Fastest track to nerfing right there.
Wow, what happened? The last change to thief I saw before I stopped playing was the set of changes with the auto attack buffs. Even after that though thieves, even the D/P Daredevil build, was considered too weak to be in the meta.
This was what… like a year ago. Since then the only changes to thief I’ve seen have been the nerf to stealth attacks. So now thieves are suddenly OP?
I doubt that. Has PvP been getting more players? And we have more people that need initiated?
Thief was undesirable due to the insane strength of revenants back then and how much more defensive everyone was. A lot of defensive amulets have been removed and defensive traits reduced in strength or given longer cool downs over the last year.
The nearest thing you get to a bunker is with paladins which adds 560 vitality and toughness, second to that is menders with 560 vitality but 1050 healing both are not that tough in actual stats. Most builds now are running very defensive in traits though, with most picking at least 2 defensive lines, 3 in some cases and even then they can be focused down pretty fast.
Everything has always been able to be focused down fast lol XD.
The problem with thief has always been in team fights as their only contribution is interrupts and damage and they get pressured out of doing those things because of not being able to take incidental cleave and AoE. This combined with AoE team heals negate thieves contribution to fights, and since I’ve been back I see these things havent changed.
I am mostly just amused that people are upset about less mathematical value out of headshot PIs than Shadow Shot, especially on autoattacks.
You asked what changed, so I told you. A lot of defences on other classes have been reduced, if you don’t believe me then read through the nearly 1 year of balance patches and see for yourself.
Couple this with reduced stats on toughness and vitality with the removal of a large number of amulets and classes are much easier to burst down or focus than before. Engineer nearly always had an elixir S for when focused now not so much, they had 1/4s cast on healing turret but now it’s longer and easier to interrupt and heal gyro while instant is less of a heal and no condi removal. Some skills reduced damage by 50% and are now 33%, cool downs on some blocks have gone up, rev has to dodge an attack to get stab so now is very susceptable to thief.
Put simply a lot of the big picks for the last few esl tournaments have been nerfed in survivability which has allowed thief back into the role it used to have.
Yes I’m fully aware of how much shadowshot does and have said before on the forums how strong it is.
Great! So so that means thieves have been in the winning team comps for pro team champions then?
I’m sure Sindrener can explain it in more detail as he knows more about ESL and how they work than I do.
He’s telling you all that you’re full of it and you need to stop with this…..lol
No smoke without fire. 3 pages now. This is an issue that needs looking at.
Nope I put it out. Now you just got a buncha people wishing they actually had a leg to stand on.
Go ahead and try to refute my posts or until then its time to throw in the towel
The amount of people defending a broken design is absolutely ridiculous. Have you thief players ever stopped and considered that the fact that thief is so reliant on these cheese gimmicks is because part of the design of the class is flawed? No, putting an ICD on ID will not kill thief, it just won’t.
But what I really can’t understand is why you thief players so adamantly defend cheese mechanics on a thief. Every single time it comes up you guys come rushing in with “But we need it! Otherwise thief will be trash.” Its either “Its not OP” (which doesn’t mean it isn’t a fundamentally flawed design) or “if you nerf/remove this thief will never be competitive again”. If you rely on 1 or 2 cheese gimmicks to be competitive (which you actually don’t anyway) then the class needs to be redesigned.
Quit kittening whining and get out of denial. Some features of your class are just pure bad design and need to be redone. And when they are, thief will no longer be this one trick pony that it is right now, you will no longer be reliant on cheese mechanics just to be effective.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Power_Block
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mistrust
vs
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pulmonary_Impact_
PI can’t crit, but power block can. Mistrust gives out 4 stacks of confusion which is insane damage that will eclipse a PI proc with like 1-2 tics + skill use.
Oh and I main mesmer so before you go on about headshot being spammable or some other kitten we mesmers can chain interrupts just as well.
So like I said until one of you refutes my original post please let this thread die.
Thank You
I’m a mesmer main and I’ve seen this type of thread many times before. So I will post what I’ve always posted in these threads.
You have to look at the grand scheme of things in terms of PI. In those terms nothing about the Thief is OP. The only class that actually has a,decent gripe is necro, but if you should never be left to 1v1 a thief anyways. If you find you are in one vs a thief and die….that is a l2p issue on you and your team. Same with rev.
Now on each of those classes while you are countered you can survive a 1v1 long enough for a +1.
Now the other 6 classes pretty much hard or soft counter thief. This is with the OP PI trait too. So if you are dying 1v1 to a thief on one of these other classes then PI is not the problem. You are. Also if you are unable to hold out in a 1v1 with a thief long enough for a rotation to help you while on a necro or rev, PI is not the problem…you are.
No changes at this time are warranted to PI based on the current state of the entire game.
Thank you and /thread
This has not been refuted and pretty much shut the door on ANY argument for the nerfing of thief.
Until one you can prove this wrong this thread is over and the mods should lock it for spam/trolling/etc.
Thank you and /thread
He was actually doing your team a favor running that build. You had a 4v5 on the rest of the map while a free decap on w/e point he was camping.
Win the 4v5 and then decap his point. Go wipe his team 4v5 on respawn then decap his,point.
Rinse and repeat that.
Nope just punishing. You already had your chance to dodge the tether. Now your options are to break it or stab it which is pretty forgiving. Skills that bind will hit anyways to promote good gameplay. You don’t get 2 chances to dodge the same skill. If you fail you counterplay it or accept it.
Actually to dodge it requires either lucky dodge spam or Jedi senses at a 1/4 second cast time with literally zero tell.
This means if you are semi competent and do not currently have a diagnosed mental handicap you should land 90% of your Spear of Justices on a DH.
That is a problem and needs proper balancing from Anet. Look for DH nerfs on skill floors at the next balance patch with a target on Spear of Justice
Actually, it’s not a problem at all if Anet intended for it to be very hard to dodge in the first place. Don’t pretend you know what Anet intended for how the skill should work.
Devs have also stated that the reward for the low,skill floor of DH is,a problem.
Spear of Justice is one of those skills that exemplifies that problem.
Nope just punishing. You already had your chance to dodge the tether. Now your options are to break it or stab it which is pretty forgiving. Skills that bind will hit anyways to promote good gameplay. You don’t get 2 chances to dodge the same skill. If you fail you counterplay it or accept it.
Actually to dodge it requires either lucky dodge spam or Jedi senses at a 1/4 second cast time with literally zero tell.
This means if you are semi competent and do not currently have a diagnosed mental handicap you should land 90% of your Spear of Justices on a DH.
That is a problem and needs proper balancing from Anet. Look for DH nerfs on skill floors at the next balance patch with a target on Spear of Justice
A few things about this. First, it’s not broken, I dodge spear of justice very often because of the travel time. It’s like dodging abnormal projectile. I duel plenty of skilled people who will dodge spear of justice.
Also, the pull is double the CD of the throw, meaning one in every 2 throws, if they keep throwing it) will be pullable.
You can outflank them by using any sort of teleport skill to go to the side or behind, which often causes a throw away. This is most common vs thieves and Mesmer, though I’ve fought necrosis (when teleport) and other DH who do this proficiently.
Finally, if you are a stealth class, they can’t throw it at you when you are stealthier, and you can kite and position very well around a DH with stealth.Overall: a 35 second cooldown dodgeable projectile Pull is not OP… it’s basically a 2 part scorpion wire/necrotic grasp (which both have shorter cooldowns). You don’t see people complaining about those, do you?
So youre a pro player? Which team you on?
I’m a mesmer main and I’ve seen this type of thread many times before. So I will post what I’ve always posted in these threads.
You have to look at the grand scheme of things in terms of PI. In those terms nothing about the Thief is OP. The only class that actually has a,decent gripe is necro, but if you should never be left to 1v1 a thief anyways. If you find you are in one vs a thief and die….that is a l2p issue on you and your team. Same with rev.
Now on each of those classes while you are countered you can survive a 1v1 long enough for a +1.
Now the other 6 classes pretty much hard or soft counter thief. This is with the OP PI trait too. So if you are dying 1v1 to a thief on one of these other classes then PI is not the problem. You are. Also if you are unable to hold out in a 1v1 with a thief long enough for a rotation to help you while on a necro or rev, PI is not the problem…you are.
No changes at this time are warranted to PI based on the current state of the entire game.
Thank you and /thread
Lots of people took not only took the bait but swallowed the whole kittening hook too.
7/10 based on replies
Have you ever seen a dog dodge it’s way out of a leash?
There were dogs in that video :P
Nope just punishing. You already had your chance to dodge the tether. Now your options are to break it or stab it which is pretty forgiving. Skills that bind will hit anyways to promote good gameplay. You don’t get 2 chances to dodge the same skill. If you fail you counterplay it or accept it.
Actually to dodge it requires either lucky dodge spam or Jedi senses at a 1/4 second cast time with literally zero tell.
This means if you are semi competent and do not currently have a diagnosed mental handicap you should land 90% of your Spear of Justices on a DH.
That is a problem and needs proper balancing from Anet. Look for DH nerfs on skill floors at the next balance patch with a target on Spear of Justice
you know what’s really broken? not having counter play to dodge spamming thieves. Spear of justice is excellent for punishing that cheese.
Guardian has hard countered thief since 2013, and Spear of Justice being balanced won’t change that at all.
If you are losing to thieves on a DH it’s time to put on some serious practice and realize the problem is you
Nah friend, i multi class. It is only after having to put up with the cheese builds from thfs on my ele and necro, that i fully appreciate all the ways i can pile drive a thf straight into the ground using my dh.
Spear of justice is fine. Only class that relies on dodges for this to be a problem is thf and they deserve to get stomped by it.
There is nothing “cheese” about a meta thief build. The only thing I’d honestly give you is Pulmonary Impact vs Necro but you aren’t even talking about that. The actual build that works isn’t a “perma” evade build but more of a decap +1 build. If you are talking about a non meta build that actually hurts the thief’s team more than helps than I dunno wtf you are complaining about since you are literally facing a 5v4.5
I’m confused as to what your issue is so please explain further.
you know what’s really broken? not having counter play to dodge spamming thieves. Spear of justice is excellent for punishing that cheese.
Guardian has hard countered thief since 2013, and Spear of Justice being balanced won’t change that at all.
If you are losing to thieves on a DH it’s time to put on some serious practice and realize the problem is you
I dont get why ppl still think DHs are OP. They’re good in team fights and the symbolic version has good 1v1 ability but they’re slow and do mediocre damage unless you’re forced onto a small point. I used to keep my dh ready as an alt to ranger but its not as important to a team as the 1st ele, druid, and thief. I think its also less important than a necro, but not totally sure.
Low skill floor/ceiling that over rewards players is the problem. Multiple DH’s throwing down traps on a point is absolutely broken at times.
The system is currently balanced at high levels of play where only 1 per each class can be on each team. Now regular seasons do not have the no stack clause and since you can’t 5 man queue anymore you also remove the highly organized factor.
You start to see the problem?
There is no problem as far as DHs are concerned because stacking them is a bad idea. They cant rotate and they do less damage than necros. Their dmg is also easily countered. If youre facing a dh that runs more than 2 traps, just pop your invuln, block, or stab. Get off point if you have to, you can wait out the trap and still prevent a decap. If theyre running only test of faith, they do solid but not great damage. They have significantly more survivability than necros with this set up but significantly less dmg.
DHs are still in the same place as last season. They dont do top dmg, cant beat the true 1v1 champs like druids, and cant rotate. Theyre just pretty good at dmg, and can beat non 1v1 champs in 1v1.
I think removing the daze on traps has changed dragons maw significantly. I have to test more but i think it can be dodged on reaction. Most dhs dont run this anyway.
PvP devs already said they are too rewarding for such a low skill floor.
So in actuality there is a problem even if you refuse to see the truth.
Granted this is bronze division
You should of started with this.
Actually that means nothing and only highlights the actual problems with the class
Tgis,is the problem with inevitable outcomes of new expansions
1. The new class will be OP. This is by design to move boxes.
2. The expansion class will eventually be nerfed down to earth.
What you are experiencing is the natural order of things and the truth is the class is perfectly fine and not surpassed yet
That doesn’t make it right. Why is it that we excuse bad ideas on the forums? Even people who disagree with the changes seem to think it’s okay just because “that’s the way it’s supposed to be”.
I’m not saying its wrong or right on Anet’s part. It’s business and the way things are. As a player you should know this before hand and expect this to happen.
Honestly the players complaining about the nerfs are the ones who are the most wrong in this,situation.
I have to disagree with you about complaining about nerfs being wrong, at least as a general.
There are some things that legitimately need nerfs, but the way they’re done makes the difference, and as of late, the lazy change numbers tactic Anet has been doing simply isn’t what’s needed in a lot of cases. Rather, reworking broken skills, either OP, underperforming, or not working at all, should be looked at more, imo.
Some skills clearly do too much, in damage or function etc, while others don’t function properly at all or are very unreliable. This inconsistency causes a lot of frustration to players on both sides who get tired of seeing it ignored.Why are you even giving any energy to this? You should have known this was going to happen, and prepared yourself for it like the rest of the world. Revenants were so OP on release and remained so for an entire year. At what point in time did you think that was ok?
Wait you just thought you were good didn’t you?
At no point did I say or imply rev being OP was okay, or did I say that it should stay the way it was, so you might as well drop the hostility.
I’m all for bringing the class in line, and said in my previous post that there are OP things that need changing, but that I don’t think simple number changes are the answer in a lot of cases. I’d rather see some things changed in function, and if that in turn nerfs it from its previous position, then fine.
Your caption seems a bit outdated.
So a skill that evades, knocks down on every hit, and did HUGE damage was ok? A skill that is ranged, chills, and does HUGE damage was ok too? The problem is there was big damage on utility skills and a defensive weapon. OFC they are going to gut the damage when its time to nerf the class. You don’t need to be a gifted prophet or have the ability to tell the future to see THAT one coming LOL.
It happened, deal with it, and move on, because this nerf right here was always going to happen.
You seem far too fixated on one thing to listen to what I’m saying, completely missing that I’m advocating for changes that would help bring the class to a steady point all around; balancing the output with the skill required to use it properly. Stop trying to put words in my mouth.
I’m thoroughly convinced your caption is your own fabrication, or you’re just another troll who can’t troll very well.
I’m not putting words in your mouth just quoting you
As a mesmer main/plays other classes I have to say I appreciate a thief using the d/p meta dash build over the d/p+staff build.
On my mesmer I can cover 1 point be it far/near/etc. and allows the thief to truly float around the map w/out worry of having to defend a capped point. If you are playing dp/staff you can’t really race to +1 the point I portal back to defend or keep that 3rd point decapped. Yes you aren’t as fragile as the d/p meta build, but other classes out perform what you can do on a dp/staff thief.
Druid/Scrapper/DH are just examples. Heck if you got the proper support you’re better off going Rev or Necro than a dp/staff thief
I dont get why ppl still think DHs are OP. They’re good in team fights and the symbolic version has good 1v1 ability but they’re slow and do mediocre damage unless you’re forced onto a small point. I used to keep my dh ready as an alt to ranger but its not as important to a team as the 1st ele, druid, and thief. I think its also less important than a necro, but not totally sure.
Low skill floor/ceiling that over rewards players is the problem. Multiple DH’s throwing down traps on a point is absolutely broken at times.
The system is currently balanced at high levels of play where only 1 per each class can be on each team. Now regular seasons do not have the no stack clause and since you can’t 5 man queue anymore you also remove the highly organized factor.
You start to see the problem?
Generally from what I have seen if you are placed lower than you should have been you will have a extremely high W/L record.
Now granted you can’t carry special needs players vs regular players, but when its special needs vs special needs you can carry to get where you should be.
Mesmers are fine in PvP. Any difficulties can be directly tied to user error.
I respect your opinion on the matter, but it would be far more helpful if you would contribute more than just a one liner. What build are you talking about? Are you in a duo with someone or playing pugs solo? Are you of average skill or much higher?
You can always say about every profession in this game that difficulties can be directly attributed to user error. Unfortunately, that means very little in terms of that class actually being balanced and viable. If it takes a pro for one profession to be barely viable, and several other professions can be played competitively by a much lower skilled individual, then your argument holds no water.
So please, indulge me with a little more information so I can tell where you’re coming from making that statement.
I would say moderate to high skill level for the class on the condi chrono build. Anet has really pushed the skill floor up on mesmer and that’s a,good thing.
Now if you are moderate skill vs high skill playerset you should get demolished. Before this wasn’t the case but I feel we as a class are approaching a state of balance with the rest of the game.