Guild Wars 2

@ Konig

Yes I mean a war in the future, when Ebonhawke will come under a combined ground, underground and air attack at the same time. It is true that now humans are at peace with the Charr. But who knows how long this peace would last? Ascalonians must be ready for Charr War II. :P

These constructions will take a long time to complete. If peace talk breaks down, it will be too late to construct them. So they have to be built now during peace times.

If this peace with the Charrs by some miracle lasts, these constructions are still useful against dragon minions, dragon lieutenants and elder dragon themselves.

This is a joke thread. Don’t take things here too seriously. :P

Ebonhawke was a very strong fortress that withstood waves after waves of Charr attacks for over a hundred years. But with the new invention of tanks, airships and underground digging vehicles, it is no longer up to date. The walls are no longer enough to keep the people safe.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stronghold_of_Ebonhawke

I recommend the follow 3 upgrades, to improve the security of Ebonhawke:

1) 4 layers of trenches, anti tank trenches and pillboxes outside of the wall.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trench_warfare
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-tank_trench
http://rossettwwi.wikispaces.com/Trenches
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pillbox_

The most direct threat to Ebonhawke are Charr tanks with their huge guns. They must be stopped. The best way is a system of trenches to slow and delay them, so the defenders can destroy them by artillery fire. They would also weaken the enemies enough until a counter attack can be performed.

There are usually 3 layers in a trench system. However since Ebonhawke is the capital city and last line of defence, we would need 4 layers of trenches.

2) 100 meters deep moat just outside of the walls.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moat

It was common for a fortress to be surrounded by a moat. It slows down enemy advance because they need to construct bridges while under enemy fire.

The Ebonhawke moat would be different. It will be dug much deeper than a standard moat. This was done to counter Dredge underground vehicles. At 100 meters, the approaching Dredge vehicles would often break though the moat by mistake. The vehicles would then sink to the bottom of the moat, no longer operational. The water in the moat would proceed to flood and drown all marching troops behind these vehicles.

Some Dredge vehicles might dig deeper than 100 meters to avoid the moat. But since these vehicles cannot climb vertically (not enough horsepower from a coat powered engine), they will have a very hard/slow time breaching the inside of the city. The angle of approach would also be very sharp upwards, making it difficult for the marching troops that follow these vehicles. These troops would be exhausted by the time they climb these 100 meters of incline, when they face the fresh troops from the defenders inside.

3) 100 meters high anti-air and artillery flak towers just behind the walls.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flak_tower

This is the ultimate defensive construction to ensure the safety of the city. 6 gigantic flak towers, 100 meters tall each, will be constructed slight behind the already overwhelming tall walls of Ebonhawke. These towers are even higher than the walls themselves. Another flak tower would be build right in the center of the city, to give support to the other 6 towers as needed. So that’s 7 flak towers in total.

These tower would act as defence against enemy air ships. At a height of 90-100 meters, the 75mm anti-aircraft guns mounted on the top levels can easily shoot down any approaching airships. This makes landing troops inside the city and carpet bombing nearly suicidal. These AA guns would be supported by friendly human airships inside defending the city.

Slightly below the top floor, the flak tower would be filled with artillery guns facing the outside of the wall. They give an extra firing layer against the foes outside of the walls. Foes stuck in the trenches and no man’s land outside would be constantly bombarded by these artillery guns. Charr tanks’ weaker top armor are fully exposed to these guns at a height of almost 75-90 meters.

Should the enemy breach the walls, there are even more artillery guns facing the inside of the city than outside. At a height of 25-75 meters, they can shoot almost anywhere inside the city. So any foes stuck or slow down by the inner city defences would be constantly bombard by these artillery pieces.

If you are wondering if ancient people can build things this high:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torre_della_Lanterna

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

For the time being I’ll just be one of those necromancers doing a silent protest, and hope that the sheer numbers will eventually get their attention.

I go one step further. I hasn’t log onto the game for 3 weeks now. Complaining on this forum is my new game. :P

Give us 4 skills that require 33% health sacrifice, then I will be happy. Call it the “Victory or Death” line. ^^

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Muchacho.2390:

CHIPS.6018:

martyrius.8957:

fight me in spvp. ill use the signet and win 10-10 hands down.

If you bring that signet, my GW1 necro with 480 hp can beat you. :P

Thats not fair. A gw1 necro will beat any class and any build in gw2…

Even though the GW1 necro will, be one-shotted (60 armor and ~500 health, remember?) and has no dodges :p

Remember how we used to beat over powered Hard Mode bosses?

Protective Spirit :P

You cannot remove GW1 enchantment in GW2. There are literally no enchantment removing skills (buff removal is not the same). GW1 necro is going to win. :P

Meanwhile, here is a REAL Spiteful Spirit or Spoil Victor for you to enjoy yourself with.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

What saddens me the most is that life stealing was always underpowered in Guild Wars 1, and never got fixed. So many years of experience with that unbalance and then they do the same thing for Guilds Wars 2. Boggles my mind.

I think we can confidently say that it will probably never be fixed. Give up on life stealing fellow necromancers.

Back in GW1 I went around the weak damage of Life Stealing by being a Dark Aura bomber. I steal life and then throw those life away for damage. It was super high risk, but my damage was unmatched. With experience and good timing, I was often the deadliest player in my team in dungeons. In fact I often told my monks to put me on low priority of their healing. I rarely got hit. I was that good with it.

High risk, high reward. That’s how I love to play my necro. To me it fitted the necro theme very well. Necros would risk and sacrafice absolutely everything, even their own life, for that extra ounce of power to defeat their foes.

In GW2, they took away that high risk, high reward option. So now blood magic just sucks now.

It was the same thing with other classes and builds. Back in GW1 we can equip whatever skill we want. So a garbage skill can be made useful when we find a good combination. The choices were unlimited. Our character is indeed OUR UNIQUE character.

GW2 took that away.

Anchoku.8142:

I tried out the new healing skill, Signet of Vampirism, in a dungeon and agaist Shatterer and am convinced its only use is as a group heal. It has two things going for it that Well of Blood does not; caster gets some heal no matter what versus potentially getting nothing using Targetable Wells, and other group members also can get heals no matter where they stand so long as they hit the target. WoB, on the other hand, can add a Protect for those inside and siphon. The actual heal amounts I have not finished comparing but I would hope it is stronger for others than WoB is to increase Necro’s attractiveness in team formation.

If it works out right, Necromancers should receive requests from group members to run that sigil instead of any other heal. The sigil, if good enough, ought to skirt the issues caused by condition caps and damage scaling in PvE by giving the profession a party-support tool similar to a Guardian’s. SoV may need tweaking but I think I like it.

If Arenanet can also revisit effectiveness of staff, the trait skills, and a signet, or two, in PvE and give the profession a couple of weapons to fill in the gaps we previously identified, then the Necromancer may be a lot closer to done. That sound like a lot of work, now that I think of it.

Pretty sure yourself get some healing right after casting Well of Blood.

Terravos.4059:

I’m trying to understand this thread

Necro’s are now terrible because they dislike a new healing skill that was added?

No. The main point is the devs rushed this healing skill out the door before it was ready. This indicates that necros are at the very bottom of their priority list (other classes’ new healing skills are actually useful).

At the same time nerfs to skills like Mark of Blood indicates that the devs have no idea what’s wrong with the necro or how to fix it. (hint: Dhuumfire)

In fact, the Devs has said flat out that “We got some ideas for necros, but we never have the time to test them. We have to work on other professions first. None of us devs here plays necro and none of us here enjoy playing necro.”

In this past interview, the devs spent like 30 seconds on this new necro healing skill. Then in Traherne’s voice “Moving on!”

-Necros are low priority.
-Devs have no idea what to do.
-This is not the first time. Things like this has been going on for over a year.

Hope now you understand why we necro players are very worried.

Dalanor.5387:

Thanks for the explanation!
Now i went for pve wonderland and tried it with the same 30 points spent. I got a tiny bit more healing than your math (23300 aoe + dagger).
Without Vampiric precision its 17500 + a bit less from dagger, which is still not that impressive.
If i dont have much experience in the game (which is true, im a pvp noob), i still dont know how this is a problem, when you blow all your CD-s at once. Getting 4-5k heal from one target just low with this investment (skills + traits).
Sorry Bhawb, appreciate your effort to made this comment and all that stuff, but i still cant understand the logic behind this, IF this is what holds back the developers to bring up siphoning.

edit: typo

If there are any logic in the first place, Mark of Blood won’t be nerfed. >_>

spoj.9672:

That would be an even weaker heal

He meant if you take 10000 damage, 10000X0.25=2500 would be healed.

I would guess either Dhuum or Primordus.

The true leader of the Shining Blade is almost certainly the 300 years old elder witch Livia. As seen in the book Sea of Sorrows she never actually left the organization.

Anise almost certainly knows Livia. What they are planning is hard to guess. But we can safely predict that they still serve Kryta and humanity.

Ebon Falcons no longer exist. They are part of the army inside Ebonhawke now, called Ebon Vanguard.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ebon_Vanguard

pessimist.7294:

The current emperor is obsviously seeking for more power. He reunited Cantha and reconquered the Kurzicks and Luxons. I think in time of civil war there isnt much potential for new technologies especially when they dont have access to laboratorys like the asuras. Also the pact develeoped a very progressive technology in less than a year.
I would think that the emperor would be impressed by the AAF and “allows” them to set up a “temporarily” base on Shing Jea.
Also the Aetherblades are not stupid, they know they dont have a chance to stand the pact at their current state. And with Scarlet (One of the worst employers in Tyria) AND the pact on their kitten they cant really rebuild themself without getting disturbed and attacked.

I personally don’t think the xenophobic Canthans will welcome the AAF. But a combined force of AAF airships and the Canthan navy would be scary looking indeed. :P

And if the Canthans puts the airships on mass production, they would raze Lion’s Arch to the ground by carpet bombing from airships (even if the Pact wins). I am not sure if Anet story writers are bold enough to destroy Lion’s Arch and burn it to a crisp just yet. :P

Erukk.1408:

It would be interesting to see how the Ritualist has evolved in Cantha over these past 250 years. If we ever go there anyway. The influx of magic would effect them as much as it did the other professions, and they might have picked up and/or augmented spells from other professions, like we did to them here, over time. And since the Ritualist is rooted in Cantha’s cultural traditions, they can’t simply write them off.

Though, I’m kinda afraid they might be the “monk” of Gw2’s Cantha. They’re there, and you can see and talk to them, but you can’t play as one. It wouldn’t make sense for the other races to suddenly gain to urge to study the ancient magically arts of Cantha’s humans. Unless they use the…. monk example from WoW, and they just seed a bunch of ritualist trainers around the world for no reason other than to train the players.

kitten …
Now I want to play as a Charr ritualist, and he/she got into the subject as a possible way to help combat the Foefire spirits, since necromancy seems to be a dead end. It all makes sense in my head. Nooooooooo!

Yeah if necromancers keep going down this path of destruction, I won’t mind starting a ritualist. At least we know those Spirit walls would still be useful. ^^

I think here is what Signet of Vampirism should have been:

Passive: Your attacks siphons an extra 0.15*(healing power) of health per hit.

Active: Cooldown 30 seconds. Cast time 1/4 second. For the next 2 seconds, you steal 3*(healing power) of health from the enemy in his next attack against you. That foe also suffers from weakness and 3 stacks of bleeding for 10 seconds.

So let’s say your healing power is 1000. In passive you would steal an extra 150 hp per hit (on top of your regular siphon). In active, if a foe was dumb enough to hit you during those 2 seconds, you steal 3000 hp and give him weakness and bleeding for 10 seconds. If no one hits you during those 2 seconds, you gain nothing and will probably die before that 30 second recharge is up. High risk high reward. This is what necromancer should be about.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Hm… I think we can rule out Orr and the Ring of Fire- you don’t want to moor by active volcanoes (although being in the air would seem to obviate that problem, the flying lava rocks present as much a hazard as encroaching lava) or within the hub of interest and activity of the most powerful of your potential enemies. Remote, uninhabited places like Bloodstone… Gorge? (doesn’t look like a fen anymore, at any rate) and Labyrinthine Cliffs certainly have much to be said for them… but I would suggest another possibility.

We know, from this latest patch, that Scarlet seems to have an interest in setting up a base in the Mists. And for those who have beta access to Edge of the Mists, or have watched those who have (I’ll hazard pointing you to Wooden Potatoes if you haven’t)… there is quite a bit of Aetherblade architecture in the desert corner, even down to a docked airship with Aetherblade markings. Now, it’s not a perfect theory- the area is populated with ogres, not sky pirates- but maybe it was an abandoned first attempt? And if so, maybe the second has worked out by now?

Interesting theory and observation. I wonder what the AAF are doing over in the Crystal Desert. Are they working with Kralkatorrik or Joko? :P

This is a speculation thread. So if you want solid 100% prove look elsewhere. :P

The airships of the Aetherblade Air Fleet (AAF) were being produced in Twilight Arbor. That facility is now destroyed, but many airship made it out.

Location on the map:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/9/97/Tyria_map_with_zones.jpg

The AAF cannot fly though a major city without being seen. I am wondering where they are now. I see a few possible location.

1) Bloodstone Fen
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Bloodstone_Fen

In this scenario, the AAF sailed north west toward the bloodstone in the Maguuma jungle. They are there to perhaps harvest the energy and magic inside the bloodstone. They may also be working with the White Mantles and Mursaats in the area. Or maybe the AAF are indeed the remnants of the White Mantle as some players suggested.

Predicted next attack target: Divinity’s Reach.
Objective: Capture Queen Jennah and restore White Mantle rule over Kryta.

2) Labyrinthine Cliffs
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Labyrinthine_Cliffs
http://www.guildmag.com/wp-content/uploads/gw011.jpg

In this scenario the AAF sailed south east to Labyrinthine Cliffs. Thanks to its natural height this location makes a perfect base for airships. The AAF is probably working closely with the Inquest in the CoE nearby. The AAF may or may not have attacked and win over the Zephyr Sanctum.

Predicted next attack target: Black Citadel.
Objective: Capture Charr production facilities and make more war machines for world conquest.

3) Ring of Fire
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Abaddon%27s_Mouth_

In this scenario, the AAF sailed south west to Ring of Fire. They are there to harvest energy and magic from the bloodstone in RoF. They maybe also be trying to bring Titans under their control (with some device from Scarlet).

Predicted next attack target: Rata Sum
Objective: Bring the whole Asura sociality under Inquest control.

4) Orr

In this scenario, the AAF flew to Orr, and use the local Risen minions as protection. They maybe doing something with Zhaitan, perhaps harvesting energy and magic from his dead corpse.

Predicted next attack target: Lion’s Arch
Objective: Destroy the central Asuran gate network hub, in effect destroying all the Asuran gates in the whole Tyria.

5) Labyrinthine Cliffs and Orr

In this scenario the AFF sent half their forces to LC and the other half to Orr. This is their grand strategy to destroy the whole Tyria.

Predicted next attack target: Ebonhawke, follow immediately by Lion’s Arch. This is followed up by Rate Sum and Divinity’s Reach.
Objective1: AFF at LC will attack Ebonhawke to draw the Pact forces there.
Objective 2: AFF at Orr will attack Lion’s Arch to disable all the Asuran gates in the whole Tyria. The Pact troops in Ebonhawke will literally be trapped. They must walk their way back.
Objective 3: AFF takes Rata Sum and Divinity’s Reach before the Pact forces can make it back in time. The Inquest would already be ruling over Asuran society and the White Mantle ruling over the whole Kryta.

Keyce.8137:

Correct me if I’m wrong, but weren’t Ritualists’ magic innately connected to spirits, and not the magic flowing throughout Tyria?

If that’s true, then I can see why Ritualists would have faded out of existence. Because they are limited by the spirits they work with, there is a specific skill ceiling that they will eventually reach. Because magic has become much more rich in the last few hundred years, it’s entirely possible that magic-based classes are simply more powerful in comparison.

That’s why ritualist should just mixed with necromacers. Necromancers are so weak right now and are getting nerfed to the ground all over the place. They could really use a boost. Give necromancers spirit summoning please. We need some love too. ^^

Mindless fresh minions+spirits=Resurrection of fully experienced warriors and mages.

BTW magic didn’t get more rich over the past few hundred years. Magic got more standardized. No one fights with unique skill bars anymore. Back in GW1 nearly every mage was unique (by lore). You can have 2 necromancers that fights in totally different styles. In GW2 everyone is more or less the same.

Maybe they should consider using 0.25s limiters instead of a full 1s limiter.

martyrius.8957:

fight me in spvp. ill use the signet and win 10-10 hands down.

If you bring that signet, my GW1 necro with 480 hp can beat you. :P

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Riannoc had a Wyld Hunt, iirc, so he probably wouldn’t be messing around with that sort of thing. I’m guessing it’s one of the unnamed ones, or Amaranda (there’s a line in her quest that could be interpreted to mean that she is a Firstborn… although the wiki seems to have decided she’s secondborn. Huh.) In any event, it’s heartening to be reminded that they haven’t forgotten about the remaining three.

As for the ritualist… the way that interview reads, I think the devs aren’t conceiving of it as “rituals in addition to modern spellcasting” but rather “rituals replacing in part modern spellcasting”. That would make the ritualist inherently less effective than an elementalist, or a mesmer, or what have you. Which is a shame. I miss my ritualist terribly…

Well, I’m off to play GW1.

Ritualist spells should be added to the necromancer. They are along the same line of thinking.

Bhawb.7408:

Yes, because hundreds of Necromancers telling you its bad, and literally every top tier Necro saying its bad isn’t enough.

Honestly, I just think they were giving you the canned responses that they are supposed to.

Well when even hardcore defenders of necros say it sucks hard, it probably does sucks hard. XD

I think here is what Signet of Vampirism should have been:

Passive: Your attacks siphons an extra 0.15*(healing power) of health per hit.

Active: Cooldown 30 seconds. Cast time 1/4 second. For the next 2 seconds, you steal 3*(healing power) of health from the enemy in his next attack against you. That foe also suffers from weakness and 3 stacks of bleeding for 10 seconds.

So let’s say your healing power is 1000. In passive you would steal an extra 150 hp per hit (on top of your regular siphon). In active, if a foe was dumb enough to hit you during those 2 seconds, you steal 3000 hp and give him weakness and bleeding for 10 seconds. If no one hits you during those 2 seconds, you gain nothing and will probably die before that 30 second recharge is up. High risk high reward. This is what necromancer should be about.

I think here is the most important point:

SoV was nerfed to the ground before it was even born!!!

Ok I know this shocked many of you. So let me repeat myself.

SOV WAS NERFED TO THE GROUND BEFORE IT WAS EVEN BORN!!!

This is like a baby in the womb being made kittened by his/her own parents on purpose. They then give birth to this kittened baby for their own amusement. They can then tell all their friends jokes about how kittened their baby is.

Any questions?

digiowl.9620:

Guardian and warrior are easy to envision. One is the brawler, the other a battle cleric. The necromancer on the other hand was all over the place.

DS started as the necro down state, then turned into the triggered class ability. End result was that someone turn him into a uber-bunker during the last beta weekend, with the result that DS was nerfed without feedback right before launch.

After seeing the DS+retaliation build that surfaced the other day, i wonder if that is what ANet is balancing around. A necro that builds up a bit of LF, pops into DS, does damage, runs out of LF and drops out of DS, rinse repeat.

I disagree, totally, that necromancers lacks themes available to the devs. There are tons of them to pick from. The devs just chose to ignore them.

I have said this many times. The devs should just reduce necro health by 50%. Yes go ahead nerf our useless health. But give us somethings cool in return. Somethings that defines a necromancer. We are not just balls of tanky meat ok? Devs you may want us to be just balls of tanky meat, but we find it very boring and un-necromancer.

Start off, there was the GW1 necro which every necro player loved. If not we won’t be here. I am not going to spent too much time explaining what these themes are. But how about giving us something related to:

-Hexing enemies to disable them (GW1 curses)
-Life sacrificing for power (GW1 high risk high reward system)
-Summon TONS of weaker minions as the body count increases (GW1 minion master) (Right now necro minions are exactly the same thing as elementalist summons. Necro’s should be related to death.)
-DS skill recharge time decrease by 3 seconds each time someone dies (GW1’s theme of getting stronger as people dies.)

Outer of GW1, there are still tons of necro themes:

-Vampires (nuff said)

-Darkness (the video game): I just do not understand how the devs can turn something as cool as The Darkness into the junk that’s Death Shroud.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6WKYAZXlCA

-Demon summoning

-Bats, insects, etc

Almost a thousand player posts and not a single Anet response. Typical.

I had been reading some of it. Didn’t bother posting. I gave up already.

I gave up weeks ago when Anet decided to push though with the Mark of Blood nerf. When they push though such a nerf that’s flat out a mistake for all to see, there is nothing left to talk about.

Hasn’t really played at all for the past few weeks. Didn’t even bother with that new FoTM or Winter’s Day. Been playing other games. >_>

Collaborative development doesn’t apply to necros.

DanteZero.9736:

So what I assume lore fans now know are:

1. Dual professions are out because the individual “classes” adapted various forms of magic and grew stronger individually. This is showcased by the fact that every class has their own forms of CC, heals, and unique abilities to do things they couldn’t do 250 years ago.

1. Former known elite skills are now either part of your traits or are part of your weapon skillsets because they grew strong enough or are used in such a different manner that they lose their elite status and became integral to the classes. The increasing magic meant skills could be used differently too E.G. The elementalist’s flameburst going from point blank AoE with damage to a ranged burning AoE skill.

Speculation: Consequently, this led to new elites to take their place?

Speculation: Changing magic = changing skills = nerfs and buffs to skills/traits?

Could the way skills and traits operate in both games be viewed as a result of magic changing and increasing/decreasing throughout time?

Does this also mean that our characters “wake up one morning” and noticed an instant change to their skills/traits, or was it a gradual change that culminates in the skills/traits becoming noticeably stronger/weaker/harder to perform and thus need more trait points?

Unfortunately the necro got nothing replace the likes of Spiteful Spirit and Spoiled Victor. Maybe by lore these 2 spells are still widely used by necromancers in GW2, but for game play balance they are removed.

It would be great if we get a clarification from the Devs: Are the GW1 versions of SS and SV still widely used in GW2? Are they only used by a few “ancient” necromancers? Or are these spells totally forgotten due to the passing of time?

The same goes for many other GW1 skills that has gone MIA in GW2, of course.

Anyways here is my educated guess. In GW1 we heroes learn the very basic magics and other skills in school. Afterwards we went into the wilderness and acquired very powerful spells and skills during our adventures. Many of these spells and skills are considered “unique” and very few people (in lore) should have access to them. We also find and use very powerful equipment along the way.

In GW1, heroes were VERY rare. It took many years to get this powerful. We were considered mega powerful, category 5 warriors and mages with unique skills and equipments.

In GW2 heroes learns everything from schools. The forefathers of these schools have picked which spells and skills to “mass train” the students, and which spells and skills to left out. The only limitation was your character’s level. Once you reach a level, the teaches in the cities will train you up. Crafters from town also sells you all the equipments you will need.

So in GW2, there are a lot more heroes. They had been trained by schools and equipped by crafters. The standardization is much better in GW2, with everyone using pretty much the same skills. That means lore wise it is much faster to train up a GW2 hero. However they are not of the same quality as GW1 heroes. Not even close. Heroes in GW2 is probably only category 3.

Of course, technology in GW2 is much higher than it was in GW1. So that makes up for some of the difference.

GW1: A few highly elite heroes with unique abilities saves the day.
GW2: A mass produced and standardized army of warriors and mages saving the day.

Erukk.1408:

@Mad Queen Maladife

It would depend if the Charr have a working radar system or not. It’s pretty easy to see an Elder Dragon coming your way, but it might be harder to see a lone airship coming in under the cover of heavy dark clouds and/or darkness.

That depends on if the airships are still running on hydrogen or methane. If so they will be very prone to fire hazard. One well placed Firestorm or other fire magic spells may take it out. This is the inherent flaw of using light-than-air aircraft as weapons.

There are safer gases like helium and neon. But those are much rarer and hence prevent total mass production.

Other choices like hydrogen fluoride, coal gas and ammonia are highly toxic and any leak may very well kill the whole crew.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lifting_gas

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

You know if this continues, I will simply report this. I don’t want to be a jerk, but this is ridiculously off topic, and I just tried to drag this back ON topic. But the very next post is again another German VS Russian tanks post. Cut it out already. Tyrian lore!

The problem with the topic is that we don’t know how the Asura will deploy their troops and what tactics they would be using. The people who thinks Asura will win are all talking about how awesome Asuran technology is. Technology by itself cannot win a war. They need mass production, correct deployment and most importantly, morale.

On the other hand, we have a decent idea on how the Charrs should deploy their troops, because tanks do exist in real life.

Keep in mind that I am not saying Asura have bad tactics. It is just very hard to imagine what an Asuran army will do in a total war situation. They hardly have a standing professional army to begin with.

And more importantly is morale. We just don’t see the patriotic side of the Asura. So it is an unfair comparison of Charr vs Asura.

I can easily imagine a Charr squad fighting to the last men while trapped inside a burning house. They are devoted, loyal and brave.

When I imagine the Asura, I think they would be saying:

“Forget this! Only a bookah will stay. I am surrendering see ya!”
“Maybe we can talk with them? Maybe we can pay them off?”
“As long as the Charr let me continue my research into magic ponies, I don’t mind being rules over by the Charr.”
“My ears are so long! How can they kill a girl as cute and smart as I am? Beyond logic!”
“Don’t worry. My research into the Charr taste bud indicates that our flesh tastes very bad to them. So they will just kill us and won’t be eating us alive.”

>_>

On that note, I would recommend that Anet hire an ex-army major to be their consultant. They really need to start putting “military tactics” in their missions to make them believable. They need to give both sides some “brains” to indicate that both sides did some planning. War is not as simple as it is presented right now.

Look at how much preparation both side put into this battle:

Vanthian.9267:

CHIPS.6018:

Lasers are hard countered by mirrors. It only worked against elder dragons and minions because they do not have mirrors.

Lasers must have line of sight. Artillery shoot in an arc, from behind a mountain or trench.

Lasers don’t kill instantly. It needs to heat up. So the user must aim at one spot for at least a few seconds before it starts doing damage. So they are only useful against large stationary targets, or target moving along a trajectory like a cruise missile. Anything that can run will quickly move away from the laser or hide behind something to prevent further damage.

Laser produce heat. Charr tanks runs on steam, which needs heat. The Charr might find a way to take that energy to fuel their tanks.

Love them Charr harder.

You are confusing what we have in real life vs. what they have in this fantasy game. Any laser that is hot enough to melt and instantly vaporize metal would also melt a mirror from heat alone. So no, fancy mirror tricks would not work.

They could theoretically build something to “catch” the energy, but they just learned how to use black powder and steam in recent years. I highly doubt they are anywhere close to building something as fancy as a Thermal Battery device.

LOL fine fine let’s talk about ingame. Those Asuran lasers takes forever to charge up and aim properly. In other words, their rate of fire is way too slow against an advancing tank battalion.

Anti tank guns would have been more useful. I mean yeah sure they deal less damage than the laser. But they also fire MUCH faster than those Asuran lasers.

You should watch this clip here. Once you have seen a tank battalion assault, you will understand why these slow lasers will be overrun. That’s how fast tanks can be upon your trenches.

As I said before, these Asuran lasers are hardly of any use against anything but large stationary targets with lots of health. And that is, literally, the only placed they were deployed in the game.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQVVvrXPVCw2fnS29OYrhUVUtN6D7SDB-HHIjlbN7dSwKD3zMHO

If Teq (Zhaitan’s minion) move just 1 KM away from his spawn point, we are doomed. These Asuran lasers are hard to move around. In other words, they are hard to be redeployed.

It will be the same in a Charr vs Asuran battle. The Charr general will simply move his highly mobile tanks away from these stationary lasers before his assault. He can also dig underground (stealing a page from the Dredge) and then emerge to assault these lasers. He can sent special forces behind enemy lines to assault power grids. There are just too many things he can do to render these lasers useless.

“Rate of Fire” and “deployability” are the greatest flaws of these Asuran lasers.

Cataclysm.7491:

For curiousities sake; CHIPS, Lostwingman and draxynnic, where are you from?

Chinese living in Canada. I just happen to love military history. :P

@ Lostwingman.5034

You kept saying that German tanks are inferior. But fact is in almost every battle the German army always killed more Russian tanks and soldiers, win or lose. And the Russian often outnumber the Germans 2 to 1, sometimes more.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Battle_of_Kharkov
(2 to 1. Germany won. Russia suffered more than 10 times the losses.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kursk
(2 to 1. Russia won but suffers 4 times the losses.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Narva_
(2 to 1. Germany won. Russia suffered 7 times the losses.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korsun%E2%80%93Shevchenkovsky_Offensive
(5 to 1. Russia won but suffers 3 times the losses.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Bagration
(3 to 1. Tanks 7 to 1. Russia won but suffers 1.5 times the losses.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_for_Normandy
(2 to 1. US and England won but suffer twice the tank losses.)

Now I know at the start of the conflict, T-34 have better armour and bigger guns than German tanks at that time. It was Germany’s superior tactics and superior training (specially their anti tank gun crew) that did a lot of damage. But they eventually use their battle experience to build the Panther and Tiger II tanks, which are better than the T-34 and KV1 tanks. But it was too little too late.

If you want to prove that T-34 and KV1 are better than Germany tanks, then you better explain why they “drop like flies” in almost every battle, win or loss.

It would be insane to claim the German army and tank battalion was a bunch of push overs. They are anything but. They were some of the toughest, best trained and best led armies around.

Lostwingman.5034:

CHIPS.6018:

Lostwingman I don’t know why you keep saying Soviet anti tank rifles (like the PTRD) are effective against heavy tanks. I have no idea where you read this stuff up. Feel free to post links to prove your point.

Anti tank rifles didn’t work. That’s why they invented the likes of RPGs and Panzerfaust for infantries to kill tanks.

As for the Tiger II, its 5 to 1 kill/loss ratio (conservative estimate) spoke for itself. Some estimates are as high as 10 to 1.

Panther wasn’t a heavy tank, it was a medium. Also the source is Hilary Doyle, the highest living authority on German WW2 AFVs. I’m at work but I’ll find the interview where he states that shortly.

Anti-Tank rifles did work, very well. It’s just they were generally heavy and only really developed by a handful of Eastern European countries.
For lack of a better source till my contact replies:
“During the initial invasion, and indeed throughout the war, most German tanks had side armor thinner than 40mm (PzKpfw I & II: 13-20mm, III & IV series: 30mm, PzKpfw V Panther (combat debut mid-1943): 40-50mm), but the PTRD teams needed to be close to very close, sometimes at point blank distances, to have a chance of penetrating the sides of these tanks.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PTRD

Oh sweet Jesus no, not the kitten ed inflated kill ratio thing.
http://ftr.wot-news.com/2013/07/28/please-dont-use-the-5-m4s-1-panther-myth/
King Tigers, they have no appreciable ratio positive or negative because they were incredibly rare, even rarer when they were found working. The more common big vehicle the Shermans ran into was the Panther and by Army evaluation they found that the Sherman was 3.6x as combat effective as the Panther. A British evaluation of the Normandy campaign found that when the allies had a 2.2:1 advantage, victory was assured.

Your own link stated that the Russian soldiers need to move the PTRD to POINT BLANK RANGE before it can penetrate the side armour of the Panther. Now I do not doubt that this can be done, and has indeed been done in desperate times. But is it effective? Nope.

I think what you are doing is talking about theory, not an actually battle. You are saying

“Panther side armour is relatively thin.”

and

“PTRD can penetrate a Panther’s side armour at point blank range”

So you conclude: PTRD owns Panthers.

Nope. Totally wrong conclusion. In an actual battle, the PTRD crew will 99% of the time be mauled down by German troops nearby before they get anywhere close to the Panthers. But if the Russians were willing to send 100 men on a suicide mission for one Panther, I guess it can be done.

Russian tanks, anti tank guns and RPGs were what killed German tanks, not anti tank rifles. Anti tank rifles are not effective (unless you are willing to lose 100 men for 1 enemy tank.).

Vanthian.9267:

Pretty simple question. It just seems that that the Charr lovers wish it was different. Laser beam technology vs. bullets. Giant mega death laser vs tank… Gee I wonder.

Not even 250 years ago the Charr barely had the concept of armor down. Now they are about on average with human technology and you want to pair them off against the Asura? The one race that has been literally studying science and advancement at the core of their racial structure for untold years…. You should know how that would turn out.

Lasers are hard countered by mirrors. It only worked against elder dragons and minions because they do not have mirrors.

Lasers must have line of sight. Artillery shoot in an arc, from behind a mountain or trench.

Lasers don’t kill instantly. It needs to heat up. So the user must aim at one spot for at least a few seconds before it starts doing damage. So they are only useful against large stationary targets, or target moving along a trajectory like a cruise missile. Anything that can run will quickly move away from the laser or hide behind something to prevent further damage.

Laser produce heat. Charr tanks runs on steam, which needs heat. The Charr might find a way to take that energy to fuel their tanks.

Lostwingman I don’t know why you keep saying Soviet anti tank rifles (like the PTRD) are effective against heavy tanks. I have no idea where you read this stuff up. Feel free to post links to prove your point.

Anti tank rifles didn’t work. That’s why they invented the likes of RPGs and Panzerfaust for infantries to kill tanks.

As for the Tiger II, its 5 to 1 kill/loss ratio (conservative estimate) spoke for itself. Some estimates are as high as 10 to 1.

From 1933 to 1939, Germany only have 6 years to mechanize their infantry. And Germany wasn’t on total war production until 1942, when Albert Speer takes over. So at the start of the war this mechanization wasn’t completed. Horses were still used on a massive scale. Later on production of varies vehicles increased by a lot. Unfortunately this is matched by the huge casualties of vehicles at the front lines. The German army was never fully mechanized.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Speer#Wartime_architect_.281939.E2.80.931942.29

“At the time of Speer’s accession to the office, the German economy, unlike the British one, was not fully geared for war production. Consumer goods were still being produced at nearly as high a level as during peacetime. No fewer than five “Supreme Authorities” had jurisdiction over armament production—one of which, the Ministry of Economic Affairs, had declared in November 1941 that conditions did not permit an increase in armament production. Few women were employed in the factories, which were running only one shift. One evening soon after his appointment, Speer went to visit a Berlin armament factory; he found no one on the premises.⁶⁶"

The Charrs won’t have the problem. They got time to make many tanks and infantry transportation. Very few of their enemies have enough anti tank weapons to destroy tanks fast enough to stop a tank battalion advance.

Lostwingman.5034:

CHIPS.6018:

WW2: Germany have the better tanks. Russia can build A LOT more tanks. Russia wins.

What? No. Fascist box tanks were awful. They constantly broke down, would go up in flames if run at too high revs or on an incline, and their guns were terrible in terms of a KE to Weight ratio.
The Tigers had to have whole maintenance battalions assigned to them because of how awful they were and the Panther could be knocked out by 1930s AT RIFLES. Not AT Guns, freaking rifles.
PzIII and PzIV were mostly fine, aside from Krupps absurd obsession with Elliptical springs for the PzIV but the Tigers and Panthers were abominations of industry magnates overridding the Wehrmacht for design imperatives.
Additionally the Germans were entirely backwards, they still relied heavily on horse transport for their logistics when they invaded Russia.

I was talking about a drawn-out war (e.g. lasts 3 years or more), which would be a disadvantage to the Asura. I was referring to the last 2 years of WW2, where the German Tiger II and Panther tanks were the best tanks on the battle field. But they were field in so small number (relative to the Russian tanks) it didn’t change the war. The same can be said for the Me 262, the best jet fighter during WW2. Strong, but too little too late.

At the start of WW2 Russian T-34 have better armour and better gun. It rapidly made the Panzer III obsolete. And that’s why Panzer IV quickly replaced them on the factory floor for the rest of the war. The last Panzer III was made in 1943.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzer_IV

“Designed as an infantry-support tank, the Panzer IV was not originally intended to engage enemy armor—that function was performed by the lighter Panzer III. However, with the flaws of pre-war doctrine becoming apparent and in the face of Soviet T-34 tanks, the Panzer IV soon assumed the tank-fighting role of its increasingly obsolete cousin. "

The Panthers during the Battle of Kursk were brand new. And as we know, the first generation of any product are usually unreliable. Later modifications and improvements will eventually fix these problems.

“The engine became more reliable over time. A French assessment of their stock of captured Normandy Panther A’s in 1947 concluded that the engine had an average life of 1,000 km (620 mi) and maximum life of 1,500 km (930 mi).²⁷”

The Germany repair crew and engineers were made before the invention of Panthers and Tiger II. The Germans were determined to retrieve and repair disabled tanks. They know from the start that Russian tanks will outnumber theirs. So they have to make up the number difference by making each tank fight 2 or 3 times during its lifetime.

As Germany starts losing, retrieving these tanks gets harder and harder, further lowering Germany’s tank amount. The German tank crew often had to blow up their own disabled or out of fuel tanks to avoid enemy capture, because these were no chance they can be retrieved.

“The casualties between the two combatant are difficult to determine, due to several factors. In regard to the Germans, equipment losses were complicated by the fact that they made determined efforts to recover and repair tanks. For example, tanks disabled one day often appeared a day or two later repaired.²⁶⁸ German personnel losses are clouded by the lack of access to German unit records, which were sized at the end of the war. Many were transferred to the United States national archives and were not made available until 1978, while others were taken by the Soviet Union who declined to confirm their existence.²⁶⁹”

As for anti tank rifles, that never worked except against very lightly armoured tanks. Not sure where you get that idea from.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-tank_rifle#World_War_II

“Later, as armour became thicker on newer models, the effectiveness of a man-portable rifle lessened. This was particularly true in Malaya, where the light Japanese tanks specially configured for jungle conflict rode roughshod over British forces amply supplied with the Boys anti-tank rifle. At first small cannons up to 20mm calibre were used, but the anti-tank role soon required more powerful weapons which were based on the application of chemical energy in the form of the shaped charge anti-tank rifle grenade. To these were added rocket launchers such as the bazooka, recoilless rifles such as the Panzerfaust, and rocket-propelled grenades. Some anti-tank rifles, like the Finnish L-39, were still used by snipers to harass the enemy, like firing phosphorus bullets at tanks’ open hatches, or to smoke an enemy sniper out of his position.”

Rhyse.8179:

Perfect logistics as in teleportation. No supply caravans, no field camps, just mobile gate crews. (changing gate attunements is difficult but possible; mobile gates that are set up and taken down like a firebase are entirely plausible in lore) Every military camp is a 30 second walk from your home base, and a flip of a switch on either side means the enemy can’t use them against you. The amount of personnel alone freed up by this is enormous, and that’s on top of being immune to the normal supply ambushes, delayed reinforcements, etc, that you’d expect in any large campaign.

As for organization, I don’t discount it- it’s why it’s listed in the first place. Seriously though, we’re talking about shooting canon balls at force fields. If the Charr have any hope of victory, it’s through sheer industrial might and numbers. An advantage that’s fairly weak when Asura can build a Golem factory that churns them out by the minute (it’s done in minutes in game at least- who knows what the actual time scale would be)- and Golems don’t need to be manned like tanks do. Also, since the Asura can simply gate back to a safe haven and close the gate behind them, actually conquering them by force would be nigh impossible.

Not counting plot-twist level magic events, like the destruction of entire continents or turning an entire ocean into jade. That would be cheating :P

I doubt the Asura could form themselves into a cohesive force long enough to invade another race, let alone the Charr. I’ll certainly grant that much- their obsessively competitive nature makes them too fractious to even bother trying. They have so many defensive advantages though that I think no one could ever achieve more then a stalemate versus them.

Asuran do not have perfect logistics. Those gates need to be constructed before they can be used, and as we can see that takes quite a while. They are stationary and cannot be moved. So they will be under constant artillery shelling from the Charr. That means these gates must be placed 10-15 km behind the front line to keep them safe. These 10-15 km must be WALKED by the Asurans because they do not have mechanical transportation (golems walks at the same speed as soldiers on foot. So no advantage there.). Charrs on the other hand will always move with mechanical transportation (their infantry will be fully mechanized.). Overall Asuran does have a slight logistic advantage, but not as much as you think.

And with the rapidly changing front lines in armoured warfare, anything stationary are at a huge disadvantage. Right after a breakthrough of the front line, tanks can advance rapidly to overrun anything behind.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_for_France

“Erwin Rommel had breached its defences within 24 hours of its conception.¹⁴¹ This allowed Rommel to break free with his 7th Panzer Division, refusing to allow his division rest and advancing both by day and night. The Ghost division advanced 30 mi (48 km) in just 24 hours.¹⁴³”

Nick.6972:

USA didn’t win VIetnam war even with the superior technologies.

North Vietnam was in total war status, determined to win. US wasn’t.

If US deployed 11 million troops as they did in WW2, they would easily beat North Vietnam.

IMO, in a Asura vs Charr total war situation, the Asura have to gain a very quick victory over the Charr (e.g. within 6 months). If the war lasts for over 6 months, the Charrs will slowly come back and eventually win the war.

Asurans are clearly “smarter”. However they are terrible at working together. We see most Asuran doing his or her own invention. And they waste a lot of time arguing over whose idea is better.

Charrs are not as smart, but they have no problem working together. And once they get one prototype working, the next step is mass production to equip all soldiers with the new weapons.

Charr knows exactly what it takes to win a war. They would pick a weapon to mass produce, and then give it out to all the soldiers within 2 months.

Asurans do not understand war. They would argue night and day over which weapon to mass produce. They would also waste a lot of time making little modification to “perfect” that weapon. By the time they finally start production, it is 4 months later.

WW2: Germany have the better tanks. Russia can build A LOT more tanks. Russia wins.

GW2: Asura have the better weapons. Charr can build A LOT more weapons. Charr will win.

I log a few hours of WvW every week. I also talk on the lore forums.

I said this many times. New dungeons cannot keep the players playing. Players like me do it once and that’s it. To keep players playing we need constant world events, each lasting 1 or 2 weeks.

draxynnic.3719:

CHIPS.6018:

I was more referring to WW1 and WW2. That’s a bit closer to the GW2 universe. There what I said holds true.

I think this is actually the flaw in your thinking.

While Charr technology is on a similar level to WW1 technology, the charr and the Pact aren’t facing the same tactical and technological challenges that lead to the development of what we think of as tanks.

The original tanks were developed in response to the no-mans land of trenches, barbed wire and machine guns seen in WW1, which rendered infantry charges virtually suicidal. In developing their so-called tanks, the charr did not face this problem – a charge of Blood Legion warriors is still a perfectly effective assault force, and the only no-man’s land situation they had to face was the walls outside of Ebonhawke (which a tank can’t simply roll over the way it can over barbed wire and trenches). What it seems they needed was an SPG that could be mass-produced in greater numbers than siege devourers could be raised – and since the “tanks” do seem to be roughly on-par with siege devourers in terms of firepower and durability, it seems they’ve succeeded there.

Ironically, in role, the dredge APCs are probably more in line with WW1 tanks as a breakthrough weapon. Those big charr war engines that we never see actually move or fight are also closer to WW1 tanks – yes, they don’t have turrets, but that’s actually something they have in common with most WW1 tanks (the turret wasn’t actually all THAT important in WW1 circumstances, it was in the more mobile fighting in WW2 where it became more important and the distinction between tanks and assault guns was made).

On your point earlier about giving the enemies antitank weapons and such to better represent the relationship between tanks and infantry: this is something I disagree with. First, with most enemies in the game, there’s no reason to expect them to develop antitank weapons. Second, GW2 isn’t trying to be a WW1/WW2 simulator, but a fantasy MMO with steampunk elements. As intimated above, you could replace the “tanks” with siege devourers and things would be much the same.

As much as it pains to say it, the most likely faction at this point in time to develop what we would regard as conventional tanks is the Molten Alliance – they have the technological base and the incentive to develop things intended to counter charr weapons. Next most likely is probably humans – they don’t have quite so much technology and incentive, but they have some technological know-how and the possibility of the Ascalonian war reigniting has to remain high in the thoughts of human leaders.

Sorry for the delay response in this. I only find the time to reply to this. :P

I agree that the GW universe is different from the history of the earth. Trench warfare wasn’t why the Charrs made the tanks. They made those “scouting bikes” in order to scout ahead. And they made those “Giant Tanks” in order to mount a cannon big enough to crumble the wall in Ebonhawke.

The Elder dragons awoke before these Giant Tanks could be completed/deployed. Else Ebonhawke would be done. Next would be the Divinity’s Reach. That’s how close humans was to total annihilation and turns into farm food animals for the Charr. The Elder Dragons “saved” humanity more than the 5 gods ever did.

The urgent need of countering Charr tanks must be on Queen Jennah’s mind. I don’t think she is that naive to think this fragile alliance will last after the death of the elder dragons.

(If not, Shane Walsh will say “You are too soft. You can never make the tough calls needed for us to survive. You don’t have what it takes to protect them. Let Minister Caudecus take over.”) :P

I agree that Charr tanks are slightly ahead of their competition right now. It might very well be that humans currently do not have any anti tank weapons.

But as with Earth’s history, anti tank weapon came AFTER the invention of tanks. It is a continous cycle of inventions and counter-inventions in the weapon development cycle. When the enemy made a super weapon (e.g. WWI tanks), the other side must development a counter measure quickly or face elimination.

I can see humans making use of anti tank guns, mines (already exist) and trenches in the near future. I also hope for the further develop the Watchknights.

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

I think there are some critical facts of Lore that most seem to be missing in regards to the Histories of the two races between the events of the Forefire and the events of GW2. Firstly humanity both in Krtya and in Ebonhawke in Ascalon have come together despite their repective leaderships. Both Queen Jennah(Krytan) and Commander Samuelsson (Ascalon) have a workable alliance.

This cannot be said for the Charr. Not entirely. The Flame Legion now works against the other three. Indeed the Flame Legion is now in an alliance with the Dredge the so called “The Molten Alliance”.

This alliance is also of much concern for the Norn and the Kodan.

Unfortunately, it is pretty much guaranteed that Minister Caudecus is on the edge of revolting against Queen Jennah. A coup d’état and civil war is just around the corner. (And this is why there is zero need for Scarlet. There are interesting lore everywhere for story without introducing a new villain.)

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Minister_Caudecus

“With his experience and popularity, Caudecus has emerged as a rival of Queen Jennah, whose egalitarian rule, truce with the charr, and reign during years of battle have eroded her support among the nobility. He is also rumored to have dealings with bandits.”

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Ministry

“When Jennah’s father died, they ruled Divinity’s Reach in her stead as she was too young to ascend the throne immediately. Because of this, many ministers have become accustomed to ruling Kryta and do not wish to relinquish their former control, causing the rivalry between Lord Caudecus and Queen Jennah.”

zoidberg.7801:

The thing is we have no idea when tanks were even developed in the gw2 universe. They seem like a very recent invention, and so the charr could be still working on developing them. As far as we know only the Iron Legion had them, and who were they fighting before? That’s right, the fortress of Ebonhawke. Because of this, it seems only logical that their tanks would be more like artillery pieces. The Pact seems to have only had the tanks for a few months at most, and because they seem to be only a charr invention, the other troops in the Pact probably didn’t know much about them.

This can very well be the case. Charr’s tanks might still be in their prototype stage. If so, in probably 5 years (storyline time) they will be operational.

I think human technology are not worst than Charr’s. In fact humans might be better. The human made Watchknights are much more sophisticated than Charr tanks. They have their own AI, meaning they can fight independently and do not need a driver. Each can use all the spells and attack skills avaliable, meaning that they are not limited by professions like humans are(humans takes 10+ years to master a profession. Watchknights knows all of it the second it was made.). It can use mesmer spells to change its appearance, making them perfect for spy missions. One Watchknight can fight Logan Thackeray, champion of humans, to nearly a stand still.

Both humans are Charrs are going the steampunk route. The way I see it, Charrs are going for easy to produce, mass amount of tanks. This fits their higher population size.

Humans on the other hand are going for harder (more sophisticated) to produce, but stronger walker type of weapons. This fits their lower population, meaning each human must kill more Charrs for the war to be even.

Maybe in 5 years, a human walker Watchknight Mark VI will look like this. :P

http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/5c/84/0c/5c840c236e1682f3206862becd8472a0.jpg

It is ashame that we saw more Twisted Clockwork enemies than Watchknight allies, so we are not sure exactly how strong is one Watchknight. But it was indicated that Queen Jennah and Anise plan to slowly replace her front line troops with Watchknights, to cut down human causalities in battle.

pessimist.7294:

Summed up we humans should construct and build the tanks of Tyria instead of the other races^^

Nah the Charrs already made the tanks. Humans must build a different kind of war machine. For example, giant magical walkers (bigger versions of the Watchknights). H. G. Wells’ war machines will save humanity. :P

Lore explaination: Humans cut a bloodstone into 100 pieces, and put one piece into each war machine. So each walker have 1% of the magic that ever existed in the times of the gods.

Dustfinger.9510:

So going back to the point of who should be in front of who, in WWI and II it was common for troops to advance in conjunction with tanks. Your own link said that only the “heaviest” tanks advanced first. The tank we protect is clearly not the heaviest Tyria has to offer. The infantry that advanced with the lighter tanks did protect them from sabotage as the lighter tanks took out targets that weren’t immediately on them. You’ve just demonstrated how your original argument about how troops shouldn’t be risking their lives for the tank is flawed.

Perhaps you misunderstood me. I never said that infantry would never die for tanks. What I said was if the tank is already disabled, and it cannot be retrieved (e.g. this position is about to be overrun by enemies), the soldiers would blow the tank up to prevent an enemy capture before escaping.

Infantry do advance at the same time as tanks, with infantry slightly behind the tanks for protection. Only when needed, the infantry would charge slightly ahead of the tanks to (as you said) fight against sabotages and anti tank weapons.

In fact Soviets love using this tactic call Tank Desant during WW2, to make sure the infantry is right behind the tank to support it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank_desant

In my earlier GW video, we see the infantry advanced well ahead of the tank. So in that video, the tank was pretty much a stationary artillery. This is not how a tank is used in WW2.

In case you hasn’t seen it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7KroXu0TAo

A tank should be in front running over enemies and their defensive positions, firing the main gun to blow up the enemies, etc. After the enemies are weakened, the infantry goes in to finish the job.

And TBH, tanks rarely fights by itself. You rarely deal with one tank. Tanks usually fight as a battalion.

What Does the Fox Say?

Dustfinger.9510:

CHIPS.6018:

1) Konig, you surely knows lore very well. But I doubt you understand anything about armour warfare. Tanks never stays behind infantry unless the enemy have anti tank guns.

As a Marine who served in an anti-tank CAAT Plt, I can say that this is a very simplistic view to the point of being wrong. Modern warfare is much more complicated than heavy front line unless they have a counter to your heavy frontline. Anti-tank weapons are mobile and numerous. Tanks are fully capable of hanging back and bouncing their payload across the ground for great distances to engage other armored vehicles. While other unit types can and will take the lead.

Yes today is very different. Cannons can fire much further than before. There are plenty of infantry weapons (like the AT4 and Javelin) that allows him to take out a tank. And the air force are more deadly than ever.

I was more referring to WW1 and WW2. That’s a bit closer to the GW2 universe. There what I said holds true.

The infantry only advance ahead of tanks if they need to deal with anti tank weapons.

If the enemy do not have any anti tank weaponry, there is little reason not to advance the tanks first to protect the infantry.

http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/misc_dec42/index.html

“a. Tank Objectives

Tanks set out to attack the enemy’s infantry and infantry heavy weapons, artillery, command posts, reserves, and rear communications. But before they can get through to these targets, they must destroy their most dangerous enemy, the antitank defenses. For this reason the heaviest and most powerful tanks must lead the attack, and they must be supported by the other troops, infantry and artillery, both before and during the attack. The heaviest tanks should be directed to attack the points that are deepest within the enemy positions, such as artillery, reserves, and command posts. The lighter tanks attack the infantry. Each wave of tanks should be given a specific objective."

@ draxynnic

Yeah, they should have gave anti tank guns (or anti tank spells, anti tank giant fireball, etc) to the enemies along side the introduction of tanks. Then they can add that tank & infantry teamwork element to the game; adding more depth to the game play.