Guild Wars 2

Konig Des Todes.2086:

CHIPS.6018:

Let me clarify for you why that Charr tank is not a tank.

Look at this video here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7KroXu0TAo

1) Who is protecting who? The tanks should be at the FRONT to protect the solders. NOT having the soldiers up front to protect the tank. The tank should be up FRONT running over enemies and breaking though trench lines. NOT staying back and firing away (that’s the job of an artillery cannon, not a tank).

Now if the enemy have anti-tank guns, it is common to have foot soldiers advance first to take out these guns (even then, the tank would usually advance shortly after the infantry to try to take out those guns themselves). But that is not the case here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkgkFiMUyfs

2) The player cannot even enter the tank . She had to stand outside to use the tank’s main cannon. So the tank offers zero protection. It was the soldiers at the front line who protected the player (and the tank).

This Charr tank is an artillery cannon mounted on wheels running to steam power. That doesn’t make it a tank.

3) We never saw how “fast” these Charr tanks are. But given how easily they get stuck (as seen in Arah) and they run on coal steam power, it is doubtful they can break 5 mph (you can out-walk it).

4) When the enemies can just stand there and face-tank that Charr tank’s main cannon, it’s damage is too weak to put any sort of “fear” into the enemy. This means an enemy can carry an explosive, run to the tank, face-tank the first hit, plan the explosive onto tank, KABOOM.

If the Pact do not start making real tanks, then they should change the names of these Charr vehicles into something more fitting in their role: Scouting and Reconnaissance Bikes.

1) Not all tanks are meant to go before the infantry.

2) Mechanics. Isn’t it completely SHOCKING that there are mechanics that cannot be taken as lore? If ArenaNet hadn’t kitten their entire game’s mechanics and aesthetics, you can bet your kitten that you’d be standing atop of the gun or your model disappeared and camera showing as if you’re in the tank.

3) Actually we do see how fast they move in Orr. And as someone pointed out they do races with these. Not much of a race if you can outrun them on foot.

4) Y’know, most enemies I fight except things like Risen Giants and Risen Abominations get one-shotted by the tanks in Orr. So either you have a crappy experience, aim, or whatever, or we’re playing two completely different games.

Also: Balance Mechanics.

Yeah, they’re not standard tanks. But they sure as hell aren’t as bad as you make them to be. It’s really tiring to see folks like you complain about far more than what’s actually wrong with the game.

1) Konig, you surely knows lore very well. But I doubt you understand anything about armour warfare. Tanks never stays behind infantry unless the enemy have anti tank guns.

Look at these pictures. Infantry are always behind the tanks because it gives them protection. Its very simple logic really.

http://iabsi.com/gen/public/images/Soviet%20tanks%20and%20infantry%20at%20Dukla.jpg
http://ww2db.com/images/vehicle_t34_11.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/27/Marine_infantrymen_take_cover_behind_a_tank_while_it_fires_on_Communist_troops_ahead_HD-SN-99-03079.jpg/1125px-Marine_infantrymen_take_cover_behind_a_tank_while_it_fires_on_Communist_troops_ahead_HD-SN-99-03079.jpg

2) Mechanics doesn’t apply here. Even in GW1 the player can ride the devourer and Junundu into battle, and the player is protected by taking on that beast’s health.
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Charr_Siege_Devourer

The most basic idea is for soldier to stay INSIDE a tank and fire away. If they cannot even do that, the weapon is NO LONGER a tank. It is more like a non-armored self propelled artillery. Pretty much a cannon mounted onto a jeep.

If they feel this is required for game play balance, then stop calling these Charr vehicles tanks. They are anything but tanks.

3) I don’t remember seeing them move fast ever. When in Arah these Charr tanks are always stuck in the mud or broken down, and Pact soldiers have to risk their lives defending them.

In WW2, if you tank is disabled and cannot be retrieved, you blow it up with your own explosives and move on. End of story. Lives are always worth more than a tank.

4) It is funny you say that, because I just linked a video showing how the Charr tank’s main gun DO NOT one hit kill enemies.

Bigtony.5089:

http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/6103/27652091.174/0_68023_2277442_XXXL that’s a tank, and it cant do 360 with his cannon.

It does not have a rotating turret. That means it is a self-propelled gun.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-propelled_gun

Other names includes assault gun and tank destroyer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault_gun
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank_destroyer

The benefit of an assault gun is that it have heavier armour than a tank (having turrets limits the armor amount). They also can carry a bigger calibre gun than a tank. They are also lower profile than a tank, making them harder to hit. They are also cheaper and easier to produce than tanks.

The disadvantage is its cannon cannot aim nearly as well as a tank. That makes tank the better multi-role vehicle, while assault guns are better at taking out armoured vehicles.

“A tank destroyer is a type of armored fighting vehicle armed with a gun or missile launcher, and is designed specifically to engage enemy armored vehicles. Tanks are generally armoured fighting vehicles designed for front-line combat which combines operational mobility and tactical offensive and defensive capabilities and perform all primary tasks of the armoured troops on the battlefield; the tank destroyer on the other hand is specifically designed mainly for taking on enemy armour.¹ Many have been based on a tracked tank chassis, while others are wheeled.”

Jelle.4623:

what about these though

Judging from its size and it running on steam power, it probably move slower than 1 mph.

Its the same reason why they abandoned the project of Landkreuzer P. 1000 Ratte. Its going to be too big, too slow and too vulnerable to be of any use.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landkreuzer_P._1000_Ratte

It would be fine if the enemy does not have any tanks or anti-tank cannons (as with the Ascalonians, they got nothing.). In that case, this giant tank can be used as a transportable naval artillery piece. But any enemy with experience in tank warfare would have no problem disabling it.

It would also be fine if you have a good rail road system to transport that big machine around at a reasonable speed. But no one in the GW universe have trains yet.

http://exs.lv/upload/user325/2011-08/Landkreuzer_P1500.jpg

Konig Des Todes.2086:

CHIPS.6018:

-snip-

Actually, charr tanks do have heavy armor, move rapidly in rough terrain (though not broken, muck-covered terrain like Orr due to the fact they have wheels rather than the belts of RL tanks), and carry heavy firepower; arguably it does your third point as well, though due to small size compared to the charr’s big size not so well for the charr.

So only your points 2 and 3 hold real merrit, because we see in the personal storyline that they offer heavy firepower (norn blackedout storyline and Vigil’s invasion into Cursed Shore storyline), and they do have heavy armor despite your claims of its look.

And as others noted loosely, those “charrmobile” tanks are not the only kind of tanks the charr have. Otherwise they wouldn’t be needing to clear out large portions of the Great Northern Wall to get them through.

Let me clarify for you why that Charr tank is not a tank.

Look at this video here.

1) Who is protecting who? The tanks should be at the FRONT to protect the solders. NOT having the soldiers up front to protect the tank. The tank should be up FRONT running over enemies and breaking though trench lines. NOT staying back and firing away (that’s the job of an artillery cannon, not a tank).

Now if the enemy have anti-tank guns, it is common to have foot soldiers advance first to take out these guns (even then, the tank would usually advance shortly after the infantry to try to take out those guns themselves). But that is not the case here.

2) The player cannot even enter the tank . She had to stand outside to use the tank’s main cannon. So the tank offers zero protection. It was the soldiers at the front line who protected the player (and the tank).

This Charr tank is an artillery cannon mounted on wheels running to steam power. That doesn’t make it a tank.

3) We never saw how “fast” these Charr tanks are. But given how easily they get stuck (as seen in Arah) and they run on coal steam power, it is doubtful they can break 5 mph (you can out-walk it).

4) When the enemies can just stand there and face-tank that Charr tank’s main cannon, it’s damage is too weak to put any sort of “fear” into the enemy. This means an enemy can carry an explosive, run to the tank, face-tank the first hit, plan the explosive onto tank, KABOOM.

If the Pact do not start making real tanks, then they should change the names of these Charr vehicles into something more fitting in their role: Scouting and Reconnaissance Bikes.

The Charr tanks in GW2 aren’t really tanks. They are more like dirt bikes used for speedy scouting and reconnaissance. And we only ever saw them used for scouting in the story (in Arah).

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Tank

Tanks in the real world are very different. They have 2 main usages.

1) Cover infantry advance against enemy fire. (As seen in WW1 in breaking though trenches)
2) Advance miles past the front line and then cut off enemies’ supply and retreat. (as seen in WW2 during the Blitzkrieg)

To do this, tanks must :

1) Have heavy armour (at least 12mm, as seen in British Mark I tanks.)
2) Able to move rapidly in rough terrain.
3) Offer significant protection (blocks incoming projectile attacks) for troops around.
4) Carry heavy fire power that sends unsupported infantry running in fear.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armoured_warfare

The Charr tanks are not real tanks because:

1) They do not have heavy armour. Nothing in their design (just look at them) indicate that they are designed with armour in mind. There is no way that they have 12mm steel armour; pretty much the minimum requirement to stop rifle bullets.

2) Their speed have never been demonstrated. But considering that they run on coal steam power, we can guess that they move slower than people walking. (e.g. 5mph)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-wheeled_steam_tank

And since the Charr tanks uses wheels instead of continuous track, its movement will be very slow in rough terrain.

3) From what we saw from the Charr tanks in Arah, it offers zero protection to troops around it. In fact it is a liability. Pact troops often have to risk their lives defending the tanks they were assigned to; pinning them down in the process. Pact soldiers are often better off fighting without tanks.

4) Charr tanks carries a very small cannon (most likely smaller than the weak 37mm cannon as seen on the Renault FT), which doesn’t post much threat.

Conclusion: The Pact should either produce some real tanks, or rename those Charr tanks to “Charr Scouting Bikes” (which fits their usage and description much more).

Examples of tank usage (for future reference):

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

Humans are good at Scorched Earth tactics. If we can’t have our land, no one can! If we go down, we’ll take you with us!

If all humans are Margonites and Abaddon is fighting ahead of us, we won’t need to scorch earth. Charrs are the ones that will be scorching earth.

Even elder dragons will tremble in fear when they see us.

Humans would have won if their magic weren’t limited by laws and rules from “The Order of Necromancers”. Who cares about honor and morality when people are dying everyday in a battle of extermination?

You got illegal poison gas? You throw that poison gas at them Charrs son!

Be angry at Vizier Khilbron all you want. He got it done. It was better for Orr to be destroyed than all of humanity to be destroyed.

(Madness? Nope. If he didn’t do that, there would be no Kryta and no Ascalon.)

If all humans followed Varesh Ossa and Abaddon and transformed into Margonites, they would have push back the Charrs. Not to mention if Abaddon successfully escape, he would have wipe out the Charrs by himself for his followers.

(Madness? Nope. Look at what the Dwarfs, Kurzicks and Luxons did. Its EXACTLY the same thing. Yet we do not see anyone calling Dwarfs, Kurzicks and Luxons evil. The story is told by the victor, that’s all.)

Forbidden Jutsu all the way! Praise Abaddon! He is only god that stood behind his promise of power to humanity! The other 5 gods are all talk no action!

I agree that the Scarlet saga must reach its full completion, no matter how bad they are. Anet had already put too much efforts into them (story writing, game programing, voice acting, etc) to scrap them.

We can, however, expect better quality stuff after the Scarlet sega. ^^

There is no spoon.

Narcemus.1348:

To me the exact numbers have never been important in the GW universe. I killed thousands of afflicted, white mantle, and undead individually, but the exact numbers was never the point. GW2 is muuuuuuuch better when it comes to proportions on these things. I mean me and a few friends held Lion’s Arch with the help of like 20 NPC’s against well over 100-200 foes. In GW2, at least there are some NPC’s to help us along.

I assume your problem, CHIPS, was with the clockwork invasions. I assume this because I haven’t seen thousands, let alone millions, of enemies in any other update. there’s always less than 100 I’d say (with the exception of this fortress which I would hope would have more). I look at those invasions and I see them as proportions not numbers. There are 20 Molten alliance individuals that appear in an area, versus hundreds of Aetherblades or hundreds of the twisted minions. This reads to me that her army is mostly backed by Aetherblades and twisted minions, and she has a few remainders of MA around to push into combat. And I take that along-side the players around me which I see as the combined good of Tyria fighting back. If you require NPC’s to be there fighting your battles for you fine, but leave the rest of us be.

Let me put this another way. If the writers clearly stated the commitment levels and scales from both sides of a conflict, we would not need the exact numbers.

During the Battle of LA the exact number doesn’t matter because the lore clearly stated that both sides were fully committed into this one single battle.

The whole Shining Blade, Lion’s Guard (SB&LG) and players fought side by side. The ally NPC factions has given the player as much help as they could afford at the time. It was a fully committed, fully invested battle.

It was stated, by lore, that the White Mantle and Mursaats (WM&M) was destroyed in that battle. After that defeat the WM&M cease to be an effective fighting force and had to go into hiding. So that means the Battle of LA was a fully committed, fully invested battle for the WM&M also.

When both sides are fully committed, the results will be decisive. It was victor takes all. It doesn’t matter if this battle involved hundreds of thousands. The exact numbers doesn’t matter, because it should be very clear to the readers that this battle was as BIG as it could have been. This battle was as IMPORTANT as it could have been.

So now let’s look at GW2.

The writers has never told us how big those battles are. For example those Clockwork Invasions. The writters never talked about the commitment level and scale. This leads to many questions unanswered. Let’s separate the questions into 2 types:

Real questions:
Where did Scarlet get such huge manpower?
Why did Scarlet react like she doesn’t care about these defeats?
Why isn’t the Pact there to help?

These questions can be answered by answering:
How big are there attacks? Are they small terrorist raids? Are they considered border skirmish? Or are they fully committed, fully invested battles? What are they?

If the writers clearly stated that these Clockwork Invasions are merely small terrorist raids or border skirmishes, then a lot of questions would have been answered. ’

On other other hand, if the writers said that was a fully committed battle, then perhaps they should give Scarlet more reaction to these defeats.

e.g. Upon hearing of the defeat, the Emperor Augustus, according to the Roman historian Suetonius in De vita Caesarum (“On the Life of the Caesars”), was so shaken that he stood butting his head against the walls of his palace, repeatedly shouting:
“Quintili Vare, legiones redde!“ (‘Quintilius Varus, give me back my legions!’)

Why was Augustus so angry? Be a defeat in a fully committed battle changes history.

Neilos Tyrhanos.5427:

Gotta agree with Konig on that numbers thing. Think, for example, of any number of other games, even ones with highly-developed storylines and background— the Half Life universe, the Bioshock series, etc, etc.

There is never any thought given to how many Splicers you killed in Rapture, or how large, numerically, the Combine force on Earth is. You know the Combine force is bloody huge. Putting a number on it would not deepen the experience, or make it more immersive; it would only put players’ experiences on a collision course with lore.

Yes the Combine from HL2 was huge. To balance the story, it was made obvious throughout that Gordon Freeman didn’t fight alone. There are probably millions of rebels out there world wide doing their own battles off screen.

It was the same thing with Resistance. It should be obvious that Nathan Hale didn’t fight alone. There are pockets of resistance everywhere off screen.

We don’t see this indication at all during this whole Scarlet sage. The players are doing everything, while the Pact sits at the sidelines and do nothing. To balance the story, the number of enemies that the players faces must be limited to 30-100 by lore. Why? Because it won’t make any sense for the player to kill a million foes all by himself.

A lot of you guys are saying details like this doesn’t matter. That’s simply an excuse for poor story delivery. Of course it matters. Because without it, how do you know if your victory was BIG or SMALL? How do you know? And what would be the correct response from the NPCs? Details like this is important, but you guys are OK with it being missing. That’s all.

And like I said, this number thing is just ONE of MANY examples. Important details and facts are missing throughout the whole story.

Stooperdale.3560:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/livingworld/lwd/The-Pale-Tree-mentions-Scarlet-now

Alright, I rest my case. The truth is out. ^^

@ Konig

Numbers are not minor details though. How many enemies did the players actually killed in these missions? Like I said, the lore number can have nothing to do with the game play itself. The players can kill hundreds of foes. And after that mission is finish, why not have a NPC say “Great work at killing that tiny team of NC enemies!”

See here? The gameplay can put hundreds of foes against you. But then an NPC tell you that, in lore, you only killed maybe 30 foes. And that would be perfectly ok in my book. It helps the player keep things in prospective. It also explains why the Pact (or Queen Jennah) will not sent anyone to help the player. It was only 30 foes after all.

This is one of those things that “explained only if it won’t be touched in the future”. This battle is already done. The player already finished it. It will never be touched again. So why not give the players all the details and facts? How can the player went though a battle and still don’t know how big or small it was?

You say you enjoy speculation. Yes me too, but I speculate the plot not the numbers. Why is number important? Because let’s say by lore we only killed 30 foes. That’s actually very small. Its no wonder why Scarlet did not care about this tiny little defeat (yay explanation!).

Now let’s say by lore, the player killed thousands of foes. Now this actually hurts. That means, by lore, the enemy has taken a major blow. That’s a lot of manpower loss. And so Scarlet should get angry, very angry. Because this defeat hurts!

Now of course this is just one of many examples I could use. But now do you see how lore help explains character behaviour?

Small victory scenario:
-Why doesn’t Scarlet care about this defeat? Well it was only 30 guys who cares! It also explains why the Pact didn’t sent anyone to stop that Clockwork invasion. It also shows how small the MA actually is. Only a tiny faction, hundreds, of the Flame Legion and Dredge saw though their differences and allied. The rest, tens of thousands, remained separated from each other. etc

Big victory scenario:
-This defeat costed Scarlet thousands of men? Well she better get angry because this actually hurts! The Pact better send some help (off screen), because how can a party of 5 guys take out thousands of foes? etc

Scarlet is not Mary Sue
-She only managed to convince a small number (few hundred) of members of each faction to ally with each other to form the Toxic Alliance. These members are “rogue” elements. The official stance of NC (tens of thousands) still hates Kraits and view them as public enemy #1. And the official stance of the Kraits (tens of thousands) still hates every land dweller and will eat, enslave, sacrifice anyone they see on sight.

Centaurs doesn’t care about the Tower of Nightmares because its so small
-Small scale events would of course have small effects on the world. Why doesn’t the centaurs seem to care about the Tower of Nightmares? Well only a few hundred guys are in there. So who cares? It is better for the centaurs to take the opportunity to attack the Pact to gain ground and steal supplies.

Details and lore must go hand to hand. It helps the players keep things in prospective. That’s what separate good stories from bad ones.

If Anet does eventually fill those important details and facts, then my personal mission has been accomplished. I see a bright future ahead of GW2’s storyline. ^^

Look I am getting really tired of repeating myself. I told you guys again and again that I DO NOT EVEN CARE about this Scarlet plot anymore. I want them to improve their details and facts in their story of the FUTURE.

Konig, look again at what you just wrote:

“I disagree and think you have absolutely no sense of disbelief. ArenaNet doesn’t have to spell things out in order for us to figure kitten out ourselves. They shouldn’t have to explain every little detail.”

Whoa whoa whoa hold on a second. So you do not care who made that big freaking tree and who made that hybrid? You think this is a part of your so-called “every little detail”? You think that this major plot hole should be up to audience to guess? (I mean let’s get real. Everyone here are just guessing, including me.)

Konig I really respect you. You are probably the top lore guy around here. But think again of what you just said. You basically just said “I don’t care about missing important details. I am willing to guess the plot to make it work.” (And yes you are just guessing, just like I am. Let’s get real.)

I am sorry. But I cannot accept this. We are the players and readers of this story. I mean sure for the really small stuff, we are willing to guess. But no way we should willing to guess the major plot holes. The writers should put in solid details and facts for those.

Don’t shoot the messenger. You and I both know major plot holes like this cannot be up to the audience to guess.

And Scarlet isn’t the only problem. It includes Zhaitan, Trahearne and others. I see a lack of details, character development and plot (and other problems I am too lazy to list right now) over and over again.

Konig, trust me when I say that my love for GW and the story is no less than yours. But this story just isn’t working for me right now. This insane 2 week LS release schedule is not going to work.

Narcemus.1348:

CHIPS.6018:

SNIP

Can you prove to me 100% that Scarlet created the Aetherblade tech, the Molten Alliance tech, or the Hybrid? Because otherwise you are also making massive assumptions.

From what we saw in the Aetherblade Retreat, it seems highly likely that the Inquest were supplying them their weapons. Similarly, the Dead Drops pointed more towards the Molten Alliance working together to create their technology and never mentions Scarlet as anything more than the mind behind the alliance itself.

There is not enough solid facts and details for any of us to draw solid conclusions on who made those weapons. That’s the problem with Anet’s story writing.

You are guessing Inquest. Where is the prove?
I am guessing Scarlet. Where is the prove?
Walhalla is guessing the alliances themselves made the weapons. Where is the prove?

It is obvious why everyone is drawing their own conclusions on how they see the story fits.

I did read the whole dead drop. Nothing in there shows clear fact on who made those weapons:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mysterious_Device

In fact, I can easily argue it was Scarlet who made the weapons due to the following message:

“Looking into a reason for the alliance. Little success. Something pushed the Flame Legion and dredge together, but it wasn’t desperation or minions of Primordus. So what? Why?”

If you are perfectly happy with the story, then please go ahead and enjoy it. I am just voicing my own displeasure with it.

Walhalla.5473:

@ Draxynnic:Thats the point. Why should the Pro Scarlet faction take the arguments from the ones who dislike Scarlet seriously. They only have to see the arguments from chips and can dismiss the things that are wrong with Scarlet. The arguments or „facts“ from him aren’t really logical, I would say they come from Troll Logic, nothing to take serious.

But well, back to Scarlet. She isn’t a biologist, didn’t create the Molten Alliance weapons and Aetherblade Tech and she isn’t a mesmer ( saw this one from another in another thread ). Nothing in the game hints, that she had done such a thing. The Hybrid is a Toxic Alliance creation. The Molten Alliance Magitek was created and developed from the Alliance, same with the Aetherblade tech. Nothing from this was created by Scarlet herself. She only takes from them what is useful for her or the Aetherblades.

And I hope that the Krait will find out about the NC and their „ Prophets“ and I also want to see their reaction. It is easy to anger religious people if you play with their religion.^^

I might be a troll if you can prove to me:

-find another instance where Sylvari put other people (of another race) into a plant and transforms him into a powerful hybrid. This proves the “hybrids are so easy that any Sylvari teenager can make one” theory.

-Scarlet directly said she didn’t make the hybrid. Or someone else claims that they made the hybrid. This proves that she didn’t make it.

-Molten Alliance directly said they got no help from Scarlet with the weapons. Or someone else claim responsibility for the weapons. This proves that they made their own weapons.

-Aetherblade directly said they got no help from Scarlet with the weapons. Or someone else claim responsibility for the weapons. This proves that they made their own weapons.

If you cannot show me 100% prove to the above, then all your “conclusions” are just assumptions. I don’t blame you though. I blame Anet. Like I said they did not provide the players with enough details and facts to fill the plot gaps and holes.

And here is the tragic part. Let’s say you did prove all of the above. Congrats! You just created the biggest plot hole in the whole Scarlet’s story because:

-If Scarlet didn’t do anything for any of these alliances, why in the world would they risk their lives to obey and die for Scarlet? Where is the logic of fighting and dying for this person who is not even part of their own race?

OMG HOW???

Answer: Mary Sue

/thread

Derom.1205:

There is something i don’t understand about you guys. So the only reason why people think that Scarlet is some kind of Sue is because she never admits defeat?
That’s what people call a pokerface.

I mean you can’t think she is overpowered because she gets defeated every single time.

For myself, let her have all the fun stuff. I mean she should throw everything she has at us. Molten Alliance, Watchwork, Aetherblades, Toxic Nightmare; everything.
It will make the final showdown even more awesome.

Back in GW1, Varesh Ossa was an engaging character from her interactions with Kahyet, Morgahn and Abaddon. The direct interactions between the players and Varesh was slim to none.

Kahyet was one of Varesh’s mentors. Kahyet was the evil teacher that Varesh really sided with. When the players killed Kahyet, we saw anger in Varesh. Kahyet MATTERS to Varesh. It hurts to lose her mentor.

Morgahn was another mentor of Varesh. Morgahn was the good teacher that Varesh, tragically, decided to betray. He was, in a sense, the last chance for Varesh to turn around. So her fall to evil was much more believable.

Abaddon was the god of Varesh. She risked everything for her god’s freedom. This shows the amount of devotion in Varesh. She could potentially do so much more if she had only put all that devotion into something good. But tragically her devotion was misplaced.

Evil villain’s interactions with those people around her is what give that villain character.

Scarlet doesn’t need anyone. She never interact with anyone. She never feel anything for anyone. She have no attachment. She never feel love, pain, fear, anger, sadness and frustration. And that’s why her character is so shallow.

draxynnic.3719:

CHIPS.6018:

-That’s my question: Who did it? You said all NC soldiers are biologists, and so by extension all Sylvari are biologists capable of creating that hybrid. I know for a fact that is false. I have a level 30 Sylvari warrior, and from her story so far there is a 0% chance that she can create that hybrid. She can barely grow an apple tree. She is that bad at biology.

Spend one skill point, and your sylvari warrior can cause vines to erupt out of the ground to grab at her enemy’s feet. For three each, she can throw a seed that grows nearly instantly into an autonomous seed-launching mortar, or plant one that emanates a healing aura. For ten, she can cover herself with a shield of vines while growing a ring of botanical mortars around her.

And this is the stuff that non-specialists can do, indicative of how the sylvari affinity for plants allows them to do things with them that would be miraculous for other races. This trend continues elsewhere – sylvari living as far away as the Black Citadel grow specialised plants for housing, human farmers in Kryta comment about recruiting sylvari for their affinity, while specialists among both the Wardens and the Nightmare Court can raise a variety of specialised plants and pretty much make them do whatever they like.

This doesn’t mean that the VillainSue label isn’t justified, but this particular aspect is not a part of it. Whether it’s Scarlet herself or her Nightmare Court allies, it’s entirely reasonable, in fact expected, for sylvari villains to be doing unnatural things with plants. If it really is in your mind that your sylvari warrior is hopeless with plants, than that means she is an exception, not anywhere near a typical member of the race.

On the topic of the Flame Legion Igniters – I think there is a technological element there. It may be a crude form of technomagic* rather than purely technological, but it’s clear that they’ve decided that flamethrowers are nice things to have and decided to make their own.

*If I had to guess, from the look I’d presume that the fuel is some form of concentrated elemental flame or something like that rather than conventional fuel, but it does have a crude technological firing mechanism so they can be given to non-shaman Fire Legion members..

Once again, I am not arguing about Scarlet anymore. I am arguing about the lack of details in Anet’s story writing.

Let’s be fair here. Let’s go back 2 weeks, before the release of Nightmare Within. If I told you back then that Sylvari can “easily” change anyone into powerful hybrids, would you believe me? Remember, the only beings that we have seen to do this are the Elder Dragons. They are the only ones that can corruption other life forms.

In the past, I did saw Sylvari manipulating plants. They can grow healing plants, ensnaring plants and such. But what we are seeing in the hybrid is very different. I am pretty sure I have never seen a Sylvari put someone (of another race) into a plant, and change him into something powerful hybrid. And so by lore it isn’t easy to do, if not flat out “impossible”.

So now what you guys are saying is that all Sylvari have the ability to make hybrids, and it is so easy to do that any no name Nightmare Court soldier can do it. Well I am sure this is news to even Sylvari players!

Anet never indicated who made the Hybrid. It could be Scarlet, NC soldiers or NC biologists. Who knows? And it is because of this lack of details that we are arguing over this.

If Anet would slow down their LS releases, and put more details into their work to explain things, we players can just sit back and enjoy the story. We wouldn’t need to spend time arguing over who made the Hybrid.

The main point here is not who made the Hybrid. Like I said many times I only care about the future stories at the point. The main point is for Anet to slow down their LS releases and put down solid details and facts in their LS.

StinVec.3621:

Not to be taken as assaulting or confrontational, but educational.
I would just like to point out that “biological” and “organic” are the exact same thing and are synonyms of eachother. So “Bio-Organic” is redundant and would be the same as “Biological-Biological Weapon” or “Organic-Organic Weapon”.

Bio-Organic-Weapon (BOW) is a term from the Resident Evil series. Bio-weapon includes both BOWs and viruses. BOW means a full size life form created as a weapon.

@ Konig

-That’s my question: Who did it? You said all NC soldiers are biologists, and so by extension all Sylvari are biologists capable of creating that hybrid. I know for a fact that is false. I have a level 30 Sylvari warrior, and from her story so far there is a 0% chance that she can create that hybrid. She can barely grow an apple tree. She is that bad at biology.

-But those invasions did get them all killed. We players are more dangerous than Scarlet. So that “scared of Scarlet” argument is very weak as a reason to fight.

-You mean those Flame Legion Igniters? I am under the impression that their “flame throwers” are magical enhancements, based on how they look. It does not look technological at all.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/e/e6/Molten_Igniter_2.jpg

-Konig of course I know Pact have an army somewhere. But we never see them do anything. The players are doing all the work. It is actually fine if the Pact is recovering from Zhaitan and so cannot mobilize anyone. But if that’s the case, maybe they should have, by lore, made Scarlet into a SMALL TERRORIST GROUP instead of an ARMY OF THOUSANDS. It is the writer’s job to put things into prospective.

Which is more believable? “This band of heroes, all by themselves, defeated a small group of elite terrorists.” or “This band of heroes, all by themselves, defeated an army of tens of thousands.”

Once again, this is only for the lore, not the game play mechanics. They CAN still swarm the players with thousand of mobs for game play purposes. That DOESN’T matter. But it would have been so much better if they stated in the lore that this is just a SMALL TERRORIST GROUP of a hundred or less. And so of course the Pact will not be involved. They do not have time to chase down every single small terrorist group around.

Gameplay and lore should always be separated. But Anet must state this. If Anet do not say anything, the players will assume what they see is what is the truth. They are indeed facing an army of thousands.

Details, details, details. Good story telling always goes back to the details.

If they really meant for Scarlet to be an army of thousand, they could have spread the responsibility.

For example let’s say the Pact have army groups 1 to 8. Why not put the players into the 8th Army? The players would only have to deal with the sector and responsibilities of the 8th Army. Meanwhile the 1st to 7th Armies would be fighting elsewhere.

Anet DO NOT need to show these battles in the game. They just need to say it in the lore, though some NPC.

-Konig, of course I am nitpicking. This thread (Slayer of Lores) was obviously supposed to be a tease. I do want to demonstrated how readers can pick a story apart of the writers aren’t careful. The details are seriously lacking.

If Anet wants to reduce the amount of criticism they receive, then they should spend MORE time working out the “tiny” details of the story. That 2 week release schedule is NOT going to work. Look at how lacking are the details that could make or break a story! That’s the main message I want to give to Chris Whiteside.

@ Konig

Obviously I am joking around by this point. But all those faults that you listed are not proven. For example pro wrestling. What prove do you have that she is bad at pro wrestling? Her pro wrestling abilities just hasn’t been mentioned!

Until I see another biologist in that tower, I will have to assume Scarlet did it. I cannot conclude that some phantom biologist made that hybrid.

Volatile to each other, yet their loyalty to Scarlet is absolute. That’s what puppets are for. They do exactly what Scarlet told them to do, time and time again. Can’t they think for themselves?

I already talked about how I hate the idea of the Molten Alliance. How the “all magic, no technology” Flame Legion would team up with the “xenophobic, self-reliant” Dredge. I won’t repeat myself.

When you talk about game mechanics, it is still the writer’s responsibility to help the players keep things in prospective. The way I see it, the MA outnumber the Pact a hundred times over. The Pact is useless and never does anything, and they are lead by a useless leader called Trahearne.

Obvious I am wrong. But it is the writer’s job to convince me. The player shouldn’t need to dream up some phantom Pact army that we never saw in the game. The player shouldn’t need to dream up some phantom intelligent that Trahearne is supposed to have but we never see in the game.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

CHIPS.6018:

You have to keep in mind that the core problem here is the Mary Sue-ness of Scarlet. I mean yes Scarlet picked up a bunch of knowledge from many different people. However the problem is she excels in ALL of them. She can make high tech gadgets and BOWs at the same time. And her story isn’t over yet, so she can still do more.

Think about it this way. Let’s say there are 5 people with 5 different skills and abilities. They each spent years (e.g. 20+ years) to master their work.

Scarlet went to all 5 of them one by one. She master all their act in a year or less, and then left. A few years later, she returned and has exceeded all 5 of her masters in all their skills and abilities. Not only exceeded. She raised the bar to an outer space kind of level.

5 master X 20 years = 100 years of combined knowledge. Scarlet mastered all of that in 5 years, and then went beyond them. She is literally more than 20 times smarter than all of her 5 masters.

Is this kind of story possible? Yes. But it becomes a Mary Sue story, a character that’s good in absolute everything and has no weakness.

I would like to note:

• Scarlet did not master the crafts. She obtained an intermediate understanding of them.
• Some crafts she was with for “months” to learn, others took years. The charr sniper, for example, she was with for two years. Beigarth she was with for a winter. But none of them she actually mastered.
• She still hasn’t exceeded the masters. Unless you mean “exceed in terms of terrorism” because then yeah, she has. Let’s face it, none of Scarlet’s ploys work when we figure them out. Scarlet’s strongest weapon is secrecy, and that’s now out the window after the first 10 minutes usually. Her second strongest weapon is her alliance making, who does all these feats of magic and engineering we’re seeing. The only threat that we’ve seen which Scarlet did herself… was Queen’s Jubilee and the hijacking of the Watchknights into those Twisted Watchwork creatures.

So you can actually argue that Scarlet does, indeed, hold a weakness. That weakness is that none of her plans actually succeed. For all her knowledge and ability to learn and understand better than others, she cannot make things work all the way through. The issue with it reducing this as a potential weakness is the fact that she doesn’t care – and given this latest update, it seems to be due to the fact that Scarlet’s not after the alliance’s goals, she’s after something that they make to reach their own goals. Scarlet sets up her alliances in order to obtain their means, not their ends.

Until we see fear, anger or tear from Scarlet, we hasn’t won anything. All these defeats means nothing to her. Where is the failure?

Please give Scarlet a mentor that she really respects, and now works with her. And then please let us kill him. And then please make Scarlet rush to his aid, fearing for his life, only to see us players strike him down right in front of her. Please make Scarlet angry and swear for revenge.

Please give Scarlet a childhood friend, and now her most devoted follower. And then please let us kill her. And then please make Scarlet angry and swear for revenge

Please give Scarlet a boyfriend. And then please let us kill him. And then please make Scarlet cry and swear for revenge. These failures are real and they hurt, a lot!

Then YES that was a sweet victory for us, because that’s the day Scarlet is no long Villain Sue.

Konig, you have to understand that this is a message to Anet, not to you. It is not your job to defend the story.

Details are everything in the story. We players shouldn’t need to spent time guessing what happened. What happened should be clearly stated.

1) Did you see any Sylvari biologist claiming that they made the hybrid? I hasn’t seen any researcher in that whole tower. I only saw soldiers. What prove do you have that these researchers and biologists exist? Or is this just your assumption?

If Anet do not want people to suspect Scarlet did it, they should put a name behind it. Make someone else responsible for the hybrid. Create biologist(s) that’s isn’t Scarlet. Some kind of NC evil genius. etc

How did you conclude that NC can imbue other races with plant magic? You claim that this is a fact, yet we have never seen this anywhere else. This is once again an assumption. Those NC Sylvari that changed into the Nightmare Tree is not the same thing, because they were a tree to begin with.

As you can see Konig, we are both working with assumptions here. But why are we? Why wasn’t more solid facts given? Why is everything up for the players’ to guess? The story lacks details.

2) Once again, a lack of any biologists in that tower makes the assumption on “Scarlet did it” easy to do. It makes more sense, to me, to put it on Scarlet (which exists) than these phantom biologists (which I have never seen).

If Anet would focus on these “minor” details and PUT SOME BIOLOGISTS in that tower, I won’t need to worry about this.

When I play Starcraft 1, one of the missions involves you leading zergs to infest a science vessel in space. Inside it, we encounter numerous researchers. They are very easy to kill and cannot fight back. So why are they there?

Details, details, details. Having the researchers there makes the mission much more believable.

3) I both seen and played though the whole fight. I has not seen one single skill from the hybrid that I would consider magical. I did see plant magic. But of course! It is a krait/Sylvari hybrid after all.

Would you seriously call the hybrid a mage, with a straight face?

At the same time, I have no problem calling Baelfire and Subject Alpha mages. They both uses a lot of magic spells.

4) You said that Scarlet is a hands off manager. But Scarlet herself said they are her puppets, perfectly under her control. I am done with this point.

Konig, this is the part that frustrates me the most. You and I spent a lot of time worrying about the logic and details of the story. But this is Anet’s story! Why are we worrying about it? And the worst part is, why do we have to argue over assumptions? Where are the solid facts?

I could very well keep quiet, and I did for the longest time. I didn’t start this whole anti-Scarlet rally. It started way before me.

Like I said many times, all I care about now is the future stories. And details is what Anet got to work on. They must provide us with solid facts, so the story flows and makes sense. Let’s go back to the basics of story writting:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Ws

Who is it about?
What happened?
When did it take place?
Where did it take place?
Why did it happen?
How did it happen?

These would be the questions that the audiences will ask. And these should be enough facts for the audiences to find the answer.

Ashabhi.1365:

All MMOs have this issue.

It’s not necessarily that the rewards aren’t decent, as they can be in certain areas, but they’re mostly level appropriate. Once you’ve outleveled the area, there really isn’t any reason to go back because the mats and drops are geared to be for the level that the zone is designed to support.

In other words, if I gather mats in a level 40 area, all I can hope to make are level 40-ish items that are quickly made obsolete by the speed of leveling.

If I get drops in the same area, most will be for those who are level 40 or so, with a few here and there that may be level appropriate for whatever level I happen to be at.

There will still be people who are leveling that will go through those areas but like me, they will most likely not go back because there is simply nothing that will make a higher-leveled person stay (barring a world event like the tower.)

GW1 went around this problem by being super alt friendly. For years, GW1 maps and missions would constantly get steams of new characters to play with, because everyone have multiple characters.

Maps are empty because there are no alts. Everyone is farming to trying to max gear their one single level 80 character, and there are only a few places to farm.

Marquie Thomas.1873:

CHIPS.6018:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

1. She’s a sylvari. All sylvari have innate plant-related magic. So this is nothing new nor unique to her, to have plant magic related stuff.
2. Technically speaking, Scarlet did not make the Toxic Hybrid nor the tower (well, she likely had overseered it and had done the mechanical modifications done to the tower seen near the top). The Hybrid – and likely the tower in its majority – was created by the Nightmare Court and the krait’s combined magic.
3. This isn’t bioweaponry, per se, but more of biomagic used for weaponry. Which again, is a specialty common to all sylvari – least of all the Nightmare Court whom have an undoubtably large role to fill in the Toxic Alliance (at least as large as the krait’s role).
4. I’ll just want to re-iterate. This was the work of the Toxic Alliance; Scarlet just put the two groups together and this is what they mutually worked towards – be it guided by Scarlet or not. She did not make the tower nor the Hybrid. They are no more her creations than the Fused weapons are – those are the creation of dredge and Flame Legion. Only the Twisted Watchwork were made/altered directly by Scarlet. The rest is her directing things and gathering the resources known as “evil factions.”

1) But this isn’t plant magic. Plant magic is summoning plants to fight for you. What we are seeing here is something on a totally different level on complexity. Have we seen any other Sylvari putting other races into plants and then changing them into something more powerful? Nope. So yes it does demonstrate that Scarlet is the best biologist in Kryta.

I would also tend to think that those “plant magic” are the Sylvari’s race ability. So they are closer to Sylvari’s natural biology than magic.

2) Yes Scarlet didn’t construct that huge tower by herself. The NC and the Kraits must have built it. Scarlet probably did have a lot of inputs in its design. But since scarlet is an engineer, this isn’t my beef right now. My beef is with her suddenly knowledge in biology.

Scarlet: “If you want your prophets back, I can help with that. I also have the shards.” (from devs) So the hybrid is, indeed, a creation of Scarlet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eh97jGEGA7g#t=50m10s

3) Watch the way the hybrid fights. It is all physical attacks. It did summon plants, but that is just Sylvari’s natural biology (This further demonstrates that the hybrid is a Krait+Sylvari hybrid). There is no magic involved. The hybrid did evolve, but that’s part of the Krait’s biology. So the hybrid is much closer to a Bio-Organic-Weapon (BOW) than Bio-Magical-Weapon (BMW) (pun intended). Baelfire (the Flame Legion god) and Subject Alpha are much closer to a BMW.

4) Yes she was the one “pulling the strings on her flame legion and dredge puppets” (her exactly words).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbFVUI_aqbU

Once again, I really enjoyed the game play of this release. But in terms of lore it just doesn’t sit well with me. But all I care about right now is the future. Anet really have to be careful with the lore when they make future releases.

One should assume scarlet is not just adept in one form of engineering she is also a capable bio engineer also she did study in all three asuran colleges and Jeff Grubb has compared the College of Synergetics to nuclear engineers the College of Dynamics to chemical engineering and the College of Statics to civil engineers.So one can easy see scarlet creating somthing that falls in line between the three and what she mite have learned from the hylecks or inquest and her natural born syvari knowledge of plants.

You have to keep in mind that the core problem here is the Mary Sue-ness of Scarlet. I mean yes Scarlet picked up a bunch of knowledge from many different people. However the problem is she excels in ALL of them. She can make high tech gadgets and BOWs at the same time. And her story isn’t over yet, so she can still do more.

Think about it this way. Let’s say there are 5 people with 5 different skills and abilities. They each spent years (e.g. 20+ years) to master their work.

Scarlet went to all 5 of them one by one. She master all their act in a year or less, and then left. A few years later, she returned and has exceeded all 5 of her masters in all their skills and abilities. Not only exceeded. She raised the bar to an outer space kind of level.

5 master X 20 years = 100 years of combined knowledge. Scarlet mastered all of that in 5 years, and then went beyond them. She is literally more than 20 times smarter than all of her 5 masters.

Is this kind of story possible? Yes. But it becomes a Mary Sue story, a character that’s good in absolute everything and has no weakness.

Durzlla.6295:

Stooperdale.3560:

“I only see that she’s smart, and use that intelligence to be a great engineer, and then is good at making promises of power to power hungry people, which any idiot could do.”

Not believable. If that’s the mistake that the writers have made then the living story is totally doomed.

You must really hate ironman then huh?

Ironman doesn’t go make bio-organic-weapons does he? He isn’t loved by absolute everyone does he?

If Scarlet hasn’t decided to go against us (key here: She decided!), we would probably have love her too. She has the magical silver tong that made everyone likes her.

Durzlla.6295:

@CHIPS, she is totally reliant on her technology, her alliances are all extremely volatile, her plans fall to pieces within 5 minutes of being revealed, she’s arrogant as hell, she’s easily deceived (I mean c’mon who WASNT expecting an illusion of Jenna?)

Now how about you answer my question and stop beating around the bush.

I am not beating around the bush. I just want to give you an easier time. You see, it is harder to prove that someone is perfect than she is imperfect. But you know what, I would take on the harder task. I am the one who claimed that she is the Lore Slayer after all.

1) totally reliant on her technology – Nope. She just demonstrated her knowledge in biology and genetic modification though that Krait/Sylvari hybrid. She knows much more than just engineering and technology. Who knows what else she know.

2) her alliances are all extremely volatile – Now you are just making stuff up. Did you ever hear any of those mobs saying they hate Scarlet behind her back? Gets your facts straight. Some players WISHED that the alliances would hate Scarlet and betray her. It DIDN’T actually happen.

The players kill thousands of Aetherblade and MA members every day during those invasions. And yet they kept charging the player’s trenches to their certain death. If this doesn’t show absolute loyalty and discipline, I don’t know what else will.

3) her plans fall to pieces within 5 minutes of being revealed – You have to understanding that 5 minutes of game play is NOT 5 minute in the world. For example the Nightmare Within can be done in an hour. But in the story, that siege could have taken months.

And no one knows how long that had been going on before it was revealed to the players. So I can counter argue that she actually did a very good job in hiding the plans from the players. Hack, even now we have no idea what her plans are.

4) she’s arrogant as hell – When has her arrogance led DIRECTLY to her failure? So far all her failures are failures of her “useless” underlings and puppets. When her 100 minions cannot kill a party of 5 players, it isn’t really her fault.

You have to keep things in prospective. For example, Scarlet is MUCH BETTER prepared than the Pact. When is the last time we the players got direct support from the Pact throughout a mission? Never. That last minute airship raid when we the players already did ALL the work doesn’t count. I mean come on the Pact knew about Scarlet. They should have thousands of men on standby, ready to act. But nope they got no one. They just rely on the players because we are so powerful. Who is more arrogant? Scarlet or the Pact?

She cannot be arrogant when her facilities are so well defended. She actually did plan it out. She probably did overestimated the usefulness of her minions. Who would have thought they are so useless against the players? :P

5) she’s easily deceived – Logan, champion of humans and a member of the legendary Destiny’s Edge, had protect the queen day and night for years. But in truth, he ended up protecting a fake illusion of the queen for years (LMAO). The queen was NEVER there. Think about it! Who was more “easily” deceived, Scarlet or Logan? Once again, you have to keep things in prospective.

And if you want to talk about military tactics, Scarlet’s invasion force always put the players on a wild goose chase to close down her portals. This is actually a VERY SMART way to use the portals.

“OMG portal there let’s go close it down!”
“OMG another portal in the other side of the world. Let’s rush there to close it down!”

Running around day and night, in lore, got to have put a strain on the players and the Pact forces. The players, in lore, are tired and frustrated. And, in lore, that is exactly when Scarlet should have launch her ambush to wipe out the players.

Think about it. Scarlet had total control over the player’s movements. And this is one of the important tactics that Sun Tzu like to use. If you ask him, he would say Scarlet already won.

The only saving grace is that Scarlet decided to play nice and never ambushed the players while they were running around.

So who here are easily deceived? Scarlet or the players?

Durzlla.6295:

CHIPS.6018:

Erukk.1408:

CHIPS.6018:

-She was born smart.
-She was born smart.
-She was born smart.

Because of the above 3 explanations, the readers are 100% convinced that the Lore Slayer’s background is legit.

>_>

I hate to break it to you, but some people are naturally born smarter than others. It happens. It is used often for villains because it sets up their superiority complex mentality so well, and it is used to explain how they are able to achieve their accomplishments.

A better question would be, if Scarlet wasn’t born with her superior intellect, how would you explain how she is able to do the things she’s able too?

But the audience are not buying the idea.

Of course villains being smarter is ok. But not a thousand times smarter than the smartest Asuras in absolutely everything without any solid explanation.

Take a look at group Akatsuki from Naruto. Its made up of ten very powerful members, with S-rank abilities. However they each fight with different skills, and no one knows the abilities of the other members. Each member spent years training to master their one single field of S-Rank skills. They interact with each other and they team up with each other to get things done.

Scarlet is pretty much all 10 members in herself. She does everything and is good in absolutely everything, with no weakness whatsoever. She knows all 10 fields of S-rank abilities or more. She is the whole Akatsuki in herself. That’s the problem.

Please list everything scarlet is good at, I only see that she’s smart, and use that intelligence to be a great engineer, and then is good at making promises of power to power hungry people, which any idiot could do.

So what else has she done? Because most of the stuff happening isn’t even scarlet but are her allies, which you CONSTANTLY confuse for being her.

Counter question: What isn’t Scarlet good at? Make me a list of her flaws.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

1. She’s a sylvari. All sylvari have innate plant-related magic. So this is nothing new nor unique to her, to have plant magic related stuff.
2. Technically speaking, Scarlet did not make the Toxic Hybrid nor the tower (well, she likely had overseered it and had done the mechanical modifications done to the tower seen near the top). The Hybrid – and likely the tower in its majority – was created by the Nightmare Court and the krait’s combined magic.
3. This isn’t bioweaponry, per se, but more of biomagic used for weaponry. Which again, is a specialty common to all sylvari – least of all the Nightmare Court whom have an undoubtably large role to fill in the Toxic Alliance (at least as large as the krait’s role).
4. I’ll just want to re-iterate. This was the work of the Toxic Alliance; Scarlet just put the two groups together and this is what they mutually worked towards – be it guided by Scarlet or not. She did not make the tower nor the Hybrid. They are no more her creations than the Fused weapons are – those are the creation of dredge and Flame Legion. Only the Twisted Watchwork were made/altered directly by Scarlet. The rest is her directing things and gathering the resources known as “evil factions.”

1) But this isn’t plant magic. Plant magic is summoning plants to fight for you. What we are seeing here is something on a totally different level on complexity. Have we seen any other Sylvari putting other races into plants and then changing them into something more powerful? Nope. So yes it does demonstrate that Scarlet is the best biologist in Kryta.

I would also tend to think that those “plant magic” are the Sylvari’s race ability. So they are closer to Sylvari’s natural biology than magic.

2) Yes Scarlet didn’t construct that huge tower by herself. The NC and the Kraits must have built it. Scarlet probably did have a lot of inputs in its design. But since scarlet is an engineer, this isn’t my beef right now. My beef is with her suddenly knowledge in biology.

Scarlet: “If you want your prophets back, I can help with that. I also have the shards.” (from devs) So the hybrid is, indeed, a creation of Scarlet.

3) Watch the way the hybrid fights. It is all physical attacks. It did summon plants, but that is just Sylvari’s natural biology (This further demonstrates that the hybrid is a Krait+Sylvari hybrid). There is no magic involved. The hybrid did evolve, but that’s part of the Krait’s biology. So the hybrid is much closer to a Bio-Organic-Weapon (BOW) than Bio-Magical-Weapon (BMW) (pun intended). Baelfire (the Flame Legion god) and Subject Alpha are much closer to a BMW.

4) Yes she was the one “pulling the strings on her flame legion and dredge puppets” (her exactly words).

Once again, I really enjoyed the game play of this release. But in terms of lore it just doesn’t sit well with me. But all I care about right now is the future. Anet really have to be careful with the lore when they make future releases.

Erukk.1408:

CHIPS.6018:

-She was born smart.
-She was born smart.
-She was born smart.

Because of the above 3 explanations, the readers are 100% convinced that the Lore Slayer’s background is legit.

>_>

I hate to break it to you, but some people are naturally born smarter than others. It happens. It is used often for villains because it sets up their superiority complex mentality so well, and it is used to explain how they are able to achieve their accomplishments.

A better question would be, if Scarlet wasn’t born with her superior intellect, how would you explain how she is able to do the things she’s able too?

But the audience are not buying the idea.

Of course villains being smarter is ok. But not a thousand times smarter than the smartest Asuras in absolutely everything without any solid explanation.

Take a look at group Akatsuki from Naruto. Its made up of ten very powerful members, with S-rank abilities. However they each fight with different skills, and no one knows the abilities of the other members. Each member spent years training to master their one single field of S-Rank skills. They interact with each other and they team up with each other to get things done.

Scarlet is pretty much all 10 members in herself. She does everything and is good in absolutely everything, with no weakness whatsoever. She knows all 10 fields of S-rank abilities or more. She is the whole Akatsuki in herself. That’s the problem.

You cannot make hard mode when the mobs are scaled so high as they already does in normal mode. Hard mode would certainly be all one hit kill.

Mystic Starfish.2586:

Wait, you mean people can’t learn more than one skill? O.o
I’ll agree, the Toxic Hybrid is different from her other works, such as the Molten bosses and the Clockheart, which are more cyborg like. But, a possible explanation is that she has expanded her abilities to create biological weapons. She’s an intelligent Sylvari, having studied with multiple people of renown, so I don’t see it hard to believe that she learned a little more. We haven’t seen her for a while (in person), so that could be the reason for her absense

Sure she “can” learn new skills. Anyone can learn new skills. But the problem is she already knows too much.

You have to keep in mind that she is already the best engineer ever lived, by a huge margin.

Now she has also become the best biologist ever lived. She has just produced the first fully functional bio-organic-weapon (BOW) that the world has ever seen. The bio-weapon is also fully intelligent, instead of the usual rampaging, out of control first generation BOWs that we see in other stories. Scarlet has just put the Umbrella Corporation to shame. Think about that.

She is becoming more and more Mary Sue. And this doesn’t sit well with me and many other players.

I enjoyed the game play a lot. A good mix of world event and mini dungeons.

Firstly, let me say that I really enjoyed the game play aspect of this release. I enjoy going though part of the tower, then enter a mini dungeon, and then keep exploring the tower. This mix of world event and dungeons is very well done.

Now, let’s talk about the lore, and how this release broke the lore once again.

Scarlet, an mechanical engineer, has just added bio-weapon, genetic modification, Resident Evil to her resume. So she is now a biologist. Her Mary Sue-ness, unfortunately, continues.

We have to keep in mind that Scarlet was an engineer. She is a mechanic that works with technology. The part about her being the best engineer ever lived wasn’t believable, but let’s say the readers accepts this. This explained how she created the Molten Alliance and Aetherblade technologies.

Yesterday the Nightmares Within was released. And the final boss wasn’t some kind of Krait/technology mix. The boss was a Krait/Nightmare Tree hybrid. This is a bio-weapon, a product of genetic engineering.

Scarlet is an mechanical engineer. She shouldn’t know anything about biology. So the lore is once again broken. I think it is fair to say that engineering has absolutely nothing to do with biology.

A necromancer or a ranger, who worked with biology and organisms, would be a better fit to be the ones who made that hybrid.

RedStar.4218:

I have a question : played the new content yesterday and tried to really pay attention. Correct me if I’m wrong.

The Krait got their brains messed up by the toxins. They didn’t knew they were working with Scarlet or even the NC. Instead, they thought they were their prophets.

If I didn’t get that wrong, at first glance it doesn’t bother me too much. What however bothers me is what it really implies :
-Scarlet didn’t need to Krait to create those toxins, nor does she have any further plans for them since she let’s us kill her creation.
-She (maybe) only needed them to release massively the toxins.
-And the worse : what if all of this was a lie ? Maybe she didn’t have access to the toxins the times we met before, fine. But in the future, that thing touched everyone, everyone ice broods.

Does anyone else think that Kasmeer getting hurt by a torn is something that shouldn’t be considered trivial ?

And do we know who was the mesmer behind the cloaking spell ?

The gameplay itself was very well done. I enjoy going though part of the tower, then enter a mini dungeon, and then keep exploring the tower.

Unfortunately the lore was broken once again. Our engineer Lore Slayer just added bio-weapon, genetic modification, Resident Evil to her resume.

We have to keep in mind that the Lore Slayer was an engineer. She is a mechanic that works with technology. The part about her being the best engineer ever lived wasn’t believable, but for a second let’s say the readers accepts this. This explained how she created the Molten Alliance and Aetherblade technologies.

Yesterday the Nightmares Within was released. And the final boss wasn’t some kind of Krait/technology mix. The boss was a Krait/Nightmare Tree hybrid. This is a bio-weapon, a product of genetic engineering.

Scarlet is an mechanical engineer. She shouldn’t know anything about biology. So the lore is once again broken.

A necromancer or a ranger, who worked with biology and organisms, should be the ones who made that hybrid.

Discuss that here: >_>

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/lore/Scarlet-is-an-Engineer-not-a-Biologist

….when they killed the illusion of Traherne? I was like “Oh yes! Let me kill him.”

Too bad that fight was fake and the joy was short lived. But it was a great moment.

Thanks for the sweetest dream I had Scarlet! I know you meant for that to be a nightmare. But it was a sweet dream.

Trahearne: This won’t end well.
Scarlet: That’s because this wasn’t supposed to end so well! Arghhhhh!

Adine.2184:

FenrirSlakt.3692:

Am I the only one who thinks it’s extremely easy to decently gear up new characters?

no . like i said gearing up alts is easy . i have 5 alts now tricked out in exotic and a fair amount of ascended trinkets . Burnout is a far bigger factor for alts than gearing them up .

Yes burn out does play a part. And the current gear situation doesn’t help at all. In GW1 you can max out a character fairly quickly. So you can max 9 character or more by just playing causally.

@ Requiem.8769

LOL at the 85 years.

On the topic of Bobby Stein:

I think it is human nature to treat positive posts more favourably than negative posts. Not everyone takes criticism well. But yes a few simple acknowledgement on those negative posts would go a long way.

TBH right now I only worry about future storylines. This worry came from the past storylines of Traherne, Zhaitan and the Lore Slayer. This is quite a while of dull Mary Sue like characters, anti climatic storylines and storylines that doesn’t make sense.

This whole Lore Slayer sega is pretty much a write off for me. I don’t recommend Anet to “waste” too much time on fixing her. Work on the next villain. Make it good.

Erukk.1408:

…..

Erukk, it is preciously because I read those “so called” explanations that it doesn’t make any sense.

“Lore Slayer was born and opened her eyes, and she naturally sees how complex systems are simply a mix of smaller interlocking systems.”

Explanation? There were none. She was just born awesome. Tony the Skritt was born awesome too.

“When Lore Slayer constructed a fully functional golemite on the fly from a small power crystal, a handful of raw ore, and a few select spells, the Arcane Council begrudgingly granted her provisional status as Dynamics student.”

Explanation for her intelligent? There were none. Without attending any Asuran elementary schools or high school, how was she able to make that golem? Because she is the Lore Slayer! Tony the Skirtt made the Sand Gun in the same manner.

“Lore Slayer completed the Dynamics coursework in under a year as the highest-ranked student in her class. Chagrined, the councilors give her the same opportunity in Statics. When she achieved similar results in a similar time frame, they were intrigued enough to see if she could do the same with Synergetics.”

LOLWUT? The Lore Slayer is soooooooooooooooo smart! OMG I should love her, but nope I hate her because she isn’t believable. I actually like Tony the Skirtt more because he is more cute and he fights for the good guys.

“Synergetics took quite a bit longer, however, as Lore Slayer finally found a field of study that was a boundless as her interest. She immersed herself in Synergetics’ miasmic mix of mystical energy patterns and arcane probabilities; in its focus on chaos theory and mapping unpredictable connections; in the pursuit of hidden knowledge and secret mechanisms derived in equal parts from the contemplation of the ephemeral and the application of the practical.”

OMG the synergetics are slightly harder now. But this isn’t a failure! This is more opportunity for the Lore Slayer to show off how awesome she is by being boundless. Everything is possible now! She is not as good as Tony the Skritt, because he graduated even faster than the Lore Slayer!

““Emissary Vorpp: Of course. I know of this Scarlet. She earned advanced engineering degrees at each of Rata Sum’s colleges in record time.
Emissary Vorpp: “Engineering prodigy,“ they said. “Intuitive grasp of phenomenological design and transcendent systems.“ Pfah, I say. Pfah!”

WHOA so that’s 3 degrees! And each time she had to start a fresh because they are different colleges. In our human world, each degree would take 4 years. So what would take us 12 years took her, what, 3 years?

How is the Lore Slayer so smart? Was it explained? Ok let’s look back.

-She was born smart.
-She was born smart.
-She was born smart.

Because of the above 3 explanations, the readers are 100% convinced that the Lore Slayer’s background is legit.

>_>

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

I think one of the main reasons no one takes Toxic Landing, is because there are very few situations where you can purposefully take falling damage and land right on top of enemies. And even then, it only reduces falling damage, depending on how high the drop is (it could still kill you). That is why perhaps it should be changed so it promotes team play. I think I like the idea of Spectral Net the best, because it would allow you to assist a zerg and give a whole mob of players falling damage reduction.

Nagato no Kami is right that we’ll probably never see the day that we receive a block or invulnerability in any way, shape or form. But would refilling all your life force on taking falling damage be overpowered?

Spectral Net is a cool idea. But it should do the same thing while fitting the necro theme.

e.g.

Pied Piper – You called upon rats to break the fall for yourself and your allies around you. Everyone takes 50% less falling damage for 3 seconds after your fall. You gain 5% life force from the dying rats, for each person taking falling damage in this area.

Spider Webs – Your pet spiders shoots out webs to break the fall of yourself and your allies. Everyone takes 50% less falling damage for 3 seconds after your fall. (Spider Man)

rjnemer.7816:

CHIPS.6018:

It is important to keep in mind that GW1 had almost no end game. Sure there were random arena, underworld and FoW. But those are not great end game by any measure.

In GW1 the end game was starting an alt character. It was so alt friendly that I had 9 characters. Many other players I know had more. It took players hours to plan out their character. They have to pick the skills. They have to set the traits. They had to equip the character and get skins for them. But at the same time, those tasks are fairly easy so no one feels it is a grind at all.

GW2 is not alt friendly at all. It takes forever to max one character’s equipments. That’s the core of the problem. I explained this in great details in this thread here.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/1-Alt-Chars-2-Side-Kick-System

Gw1 had no endgame? You sure we were playing the same game? If my memory servers me correctly gw1’s endgame was the best ive ever played. The amount of elite dungeons with the addicting rewards system kept me playing the game for YEARS.

If only Gw2 had even half as good endgame as Gw1

I meant before any expansions. GW1 Prophecies had very little end game except for Underworld and FoW. We cannot compare with GW1 expansions because GW2 hasn’t had any.

It is important to keep in mind that GW1 had almost no end game. Sure there were random arena, underworld and FoW. But those are not great end game by any measure.

In GW1 the end game was starting an alt character. It was so alt friendly that I had 9 characters. Many other players I know had more. It took players hours to plan out their character. They have to pick the skills. They have to set the traits. They had to equip the character and get skins for them. But at the same time, those tasks are fairly easy so no one feels it is a grind at all.

GW2 is not alt friendly at all. It takes forever to max one character’s equipments. That’s the core of the problem. I explained this in great details in this thread here.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/1-Alt-Chars-2-Side-Kick-System

Its got nothing to do with casual or hardcore. What’s killing GW2 is the alt-unfriendliness. I explained this in great detail in this thread here.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/1-Alt-Chars-2-Side-Kick-System

As a necro, only the Flesh Golem fits the necro theme. None of the other 2 (Plague, Lich) fits necro at all. Necros are not transformation masters. We shouldn’t just change into something else. Necros should be cursing enemies and sacrificing health for power.

Off topic, but eles are not meant to face tank damage. They should rely on mobility to avoid damage.

But yes ele does have a problem when soloing. One of their strength are combo fields, which allies can get buffs by blasting. When soloing, that advantage is gone.

Erukk.1408:

CHIPS.6018:

Asura =intelligence and theoretical science
Human = magic and history
Char = crafting and practical science
Norn = raw strength and bravery
Sylvari = huge population and unity with nature

When Anet makes new characters in the future, they should first think about which races would make the most sense for that character.

So, basically, you think when Anet decides to make new characters, they should decide which race they are by seeing which racial stereotypes they fit into? That’s a horrible idea when trying to make a compelling story. Not to mention, all the characters would all start to blend together after awhile.

One of the few pros for Scarlet, is that she isn’t the stereotypical nature loving Sylvari.

By that arguement, would you believe it if a Skritt named Tony is the smartest Skritt ever. In fact he is so smart he attended all 3 Asuran collages and graduated from all of them. He made a weapons called the “Sand Gun”, which shoots out one grain of sand at supersonic speeds. He went into the ocean, and with just one single shot from his Sand Gun he killed the Deep Sea Dragon (without the rest of Kryta even knowing that dragon’s name. Who cares that dragon is dead!).

Now everyone praise Tony like a god. The other elder dragons was so afraid of him that they all died to heart attacks without Tony doing anything else. And the world live happily ever after. No explanation is needed.

>_>

If Anet wants to get away from the stereotypes, they would need VERY well written and explanation to support the story. Stereotypes in stories works because the audience are much more willing to accept them.

For example, a sea pirate+ransom story in Somalia ocean is more believable than a sea pirate+ransom story in US ocean. Sure it can be done. But the story writer must put in more efforts to make the story work. The pirates in Somalia maybe untrained, unplanned and uneducated. The pirates in US better be trained, planned and educated.

Asura are smart. But as a child they still need to attend elementary and high school before entering one of the collages.

Scarlet never attended the Asuran elementary and high schools. Her “education” in the Pale Tree is mostly Ventari’s teachings. Sure perhaps the Pale Tree would teach her kids whatever science knowledge she knows. But there is no way they would be as science focused as the Asura.

And then Scarlet walks right into the 3 Asuran collages and get accepted into all 3. No explanation was ever given.

When the story writer decides to get away from the stereotype, and didn’t give any explanations, the story falls apart.

ThiBash.5634:

Narcemus.1348:

I would prefer if you didn’t confuse scarlet hate with Sylvari hate. It’s been said already that she isn’t smarter than all asura, just that she got a crash course in all the colleges. The only one that she may have gotten any major experience in would have been synergetics.

It’s not confusing with, it’s an extension of. I’m well aware that the lore was ‘fixed’ but to me, the damage was done at that point. And it was a half-baked fix, because the ingame Scarlet still acts like nothing touches or concerns her. Nothing the players or any of the NPCs do, seems in any way relavant to her. No defeat is a true setback, not even a minor one. She mocks us as if we didn’t do anything at all. So in many ways, she’s still the over-the-top Sylvari that she was at the start.

You may not like me ‘confusing’ things but in reality, Scarlet’s just one of many on a long list of overpowered, overheroic Sylvari that can always to a tad more than would make for a believable and fun character.

Her story would have been more believable on an Asura. Just like how a Charr as top 3 blacksmith in the personal story would have been much more believable than Sylvari. They can have their strengths, but they shouldn’t be outclassing the elder races in everything.

And it is indeed funny, because I always imagined that Sylvari is the most numerous race of the 5. The other races made up the number difference by being better individually.

Asura =intelligence and theoretical science
Human = magic and history
Char = crafting and practical science
Norn = raw strength and bravery
Sylvari = huge population and unity with nature

When Anet makes new characters in the future, they should first think about which races would make the most sense for that character.

Writetyper.1985:

This is one of the silliest threads I’ve ever seen. I don’t know where to start. I shouldn’t be surprised, everyone gets real defensive about their class when it’s over the top and needs taking down a little.

We’ll start by looking at the change itself:

Mark of Blood. Removed 1 bleed in PvP only.

in PvP only

PvP only

You know… PvP… the mode where necromancers are incredibly strong, able to singlehandedly win teamfights, 1v1 anyone not hard built to counter them and present amazing condi damage and control while having the health pool of an elephant?
And yet you’re talking in the OP about silly kitten like the 25 bleed cap? When does the bleed cap EVER come into play in PvP? When have you EVER seen someone in PvP with 25 bleeds that doesn’t die 1 second later anyway? Have you ever thought “Maybe if I had 26 bleeds instead of 25, that guy would have died!”? No, you haven’t. Total kittening joke.

TheBandit.7031:

Staff is already poor in PvP and now they’re gonna make it worse? Really?

This has to be the real jewel in a pile of kitten. Something extremely powerful is potentially getting nerfed a tiny little bit and you claim it’s “poor” in an attempt to handwave? Staff? Poor? It’s kittening core! Am I being rused here? Is this a joke? Can I direct you to this survey of necromancers in sPvP done by someone on reddit: http://imgur.com/a/iZfVr – In particular, can I direct you to the offhand weapon set graph: http://i.imgur.com/7fS2lrJ.png

Get a load of that! Over 70% of necromancers are using a weapon set which is “poor”. But of course, it’s really not, it’s incredibly strong to be able to kitten out hard hitting conditions over and over from 1200 range near-instantly and you’re just calling it “poor” in an attempt to garner some kind of sympathy.

Seriously necrobros, frankly I’m just disappointed. The warriors forums are handling being nerfed MUCH better than here, probably because warriors actually accept that their strengths are very over the top. Why can’t you?

I will admit however (Disclaimer) that they are looking in the wrong compartments for necro nerfs, and they need to go towards Dhuumfire and Terror instead of the weapon skills. You don’t even have to think about Dhuumfire, it just happens, and Terror bombing is just following routine.

Firstly, when I read pvp it means both spvp and wvw. Sure this could be a misunderstanding and they do mean only spvp. But if Anet actually means spvp only, they should have said so already. They kept quiet in all discussions on Mark of Blood indicates that it will indeed be nerfed in both spvp and wvw.

Second, no one has complained about Mark of Blood, before or after Dhuumfire. Mark of Blood was never the problem. It is Dhuumfire that needs to be nerfed. Anet nerfing Mark of Blood instead of Dhuumfire indicates 1) They do not listen to the necro community. 2) They still, after all this time, have no idea what the problem with the necro’s condition damage is.

Third, staff is obviously popular in wvw. But it isn’t because it is overpowered. Wrong! It is because dagger, sceper and axe are all useless in a zerg fight in wvw. 3 out of 4 weapons we necros have are useless in wvw. They are not even an option for us. Staff is the only viable weapons in a zerg fight in wvw.

Fourth, Mark of Blood only deals 3 stacks of bleeding. Reducing that to 2 is a huge 33% nerf. It isn’t small at all like you claimed.

Fifth, PvE. The 25 bleed cap is not nearly enough in pve. Bosses are still immune to snares and cc. Bosses do not use buffs that we can remove from. High level dungeons like FoTM 48+ are filled with one hit kill attacks, which necros have absolutely zero ways to avoid/block. It seems everything in pve is designed to screw the necro over. We have been asking these changes for over a year, and it still isn’t done.

1) Well with the new Collaborative Development thing, I was hoping that everything is open for discussion. ^^

2) Botting could be a problem with this. >_>