Guild Wars 2

robertul.3679:

Yes and this racism has to stop!

I had a legit reply to the OP, but this hilarious response obliterated it xD

StickerHappy.8052:

Chaos Archangel.5071:

This isn’t about being right, its about personal opinion on what would be best for the class. And its true, we DO need to stick together and respect that some people will disagree with us rather than attack each other.

There’s no l2p here, we all know how to play our class and we have different perspectives. The goal here is to combine those perspectives into one clear picture.

So, respectfully, could we please answer the questions before criticizing each other?

Edit: That being said, there is an interesting point here. Different specs are viable at different levels of play, but who do we consider? The average PUG? Min/maxers? Speed runners? Top tier WvW servers?

Yes lockdown is viable in lower levels but we can’t ignore the question of WHY it falls off at higher tiers. All points of view are worth considering.

Okay, If we can play our class at different levels, where is the whine coming from?

I do not see you saying Shatter is the only viable build in pvp. do you see anyone of us long time mesmers here saying that?

I for one would LOVE lockdown to be in higher tiers, But I for one also wouldn’t mind if it didn’t because I wouldn’t be playing there anyway.

We should limit our opinions on WHERE DO WE BELONG

How many people play higher tier here vs How many play casual?

Im guessing the majority is in casual. So this is where we start first. and worry about other stuff later.

So what is the problem of mesmers in Casuals then?

And you’re right as far as us as players.

But from a balancing perspective, as far as PvP is concerned, you start at the top level and work your way down. A dev can’t assume “Ah well.. There were no Mesmers besides 1 in the WTS but that’s cool. Plenty of casual Mesmer out there having fun!” and they shouldn’t. They should be examining why the class is underperforming and making strides to rectify that.

Also, they need to ask WHY do so many Mesmer have such a dour opinion of their class? Do engineer feel the same? Is this a universal thing? If not, then it’s not something to just discredit. It has to be considered. Especially if we’re all so split on our opinions of the class as it stands.

As a player, I’m happy with Mesmer as-is because at the level I play at, the mode I play in, and the frequency that I play I don’t have many complaints. If supcutie, who absolutely LOVES Mesmer and will play it even feeling that he’s gimping his team is saying that he can’t play Mesmer in a tournament with a clear conscience because everything Thief does is better, that is saying something about the current state of balance.

Top tier players work on different comps, practice, study, and pretty much have much more experience with the class in different scenarios than we do. Their opinions matter, and right now their opinions are matching the general consensus: Mesmer is in a bad place.

Is there some overdramatics? Of course but those of us who feel Mesmer isn’t too bad right now are actually in the minority, and ALL of us are looking from a limited perspective of our own opinion. Thats why we can’t consider anyone elses’ opinion as wrong or right when we truly don’t know what they’re experiencing on Mesmer.

I’m fine with Mesmer being a more difficult class to master, I’m fine with being slightly underpowered relative to other classes, but having no role that can’t be done better on another class? That I can’t let fly.

This isn’t about being right, its about personal opinion on what would be best for the class. And its true, we DO need to stick together and respect that some people will disagree with us rather than attack each other.

There’s no l2p here, we all know how to play our class and we have different perspectives. The goal here is to combine those perspectives into one clear picture.

So, respectfully, could we please answer the questions before criticizing each other?

Edit: That being said, there is an interesting point here. Different specs are viable at different levels of play, but who do we consider? The average PUG? Min/maxers? Speed runners? Top tier WvW servers?

Yes lockdown is viable in lower levels but we can’t ignore the question of WHY it falls off at higher tiers. All points of view are worth considering.

Yeah but Null is a Condi clear, boonstrip, AND ethereal field, and heavily discourages enemies off point

Plus.. Chaos Armor. So much chaos armor if you’re running staff.

Sorry, Nullfield over MoD allday errday.

Alissaahhhhhh!

/open

Sup guys.

Wanted to make a thread that hopefully will help our maybe/potential forum specialist and allow us to really get a clear picture as to how the Mesmer community feels about the class as it stands currently and in the future. If you wouldn’t mind answering some questions…

• What do you feel the Mesmer is currently lacking ATM? Please don’t use general terms like “damage” without elaborating for what game mode and why you feel this way.

From a PvP perspective, I feel Mesmer is currently lacking variety. We being pidgeonholed into only one or two viable builds mostly because so many of our traits just kind of suck. Most traitlines have about 4 out of 13 viable traits.

• What game mode (PvP, WvW, PvE Open World/Dungeons) do you feel Mesmer currently excels in the most? Least?

I can’t really say as I only really play one mode. =P

• Without reworking anything, what minor adjustments would you make to any of our weapons/utilities/traits to make them more viable?

This may take some time. Will supply answers when I can.

• Is there anything that would make you stop playing Mesmer? If you’ve stopped what would draw you back?

I can’t think of anything that would make me stop playing Mesmer, but I’d return to PvE if the encounters were more than DPS stack-fests. I’m hoping the new defiant change helps make control-based specs more viable, but the fact that running a support build is actually counterproductive rather than an alternate option is extremely off-putting to me.

• What has damaged your faith in the devs? Is there any faith remaining? What would have to happen to earn back your trust? Again, please no general statements like “a lot of nerfs.”

I remain foolishly optimistic, but mostly because I’m not to worried about being let down. I have fun with the class in it’s current state and that’s enough for a simpleton like me. Nonetheless, the randomness of the nerfs we recieve (Chaos Storm? Really tho!?) and the complete lack of transparency makes it hard to trust in the devs. I really wish that there would be more balance previews besides the one big once-a-year patches where we could actually submit our input on upcoming changes.

• What is your one (reasonable) Mesmer wish?

A rework to our current lockdown traits – Furious Interruption, Disruptors Sustain, Power Block, and Wastrels Punishment – to make them actually lucrative.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Just have power block initiate a short daze on a small internal cooldown (15-25) when interrupted (consideration given to the animation length of interrupts such as cc)

Then everyone gets the (cooldown) thing without having to rewire stuff.

That’s not a bad idea, actually. Something like…

Power Block: Interrupted opponents are dazed for 3s if they use a skill in the next 5s (10s ICD)

The original question wasn’t asking WHY it doesn’t work, was asking if this is good design and if not what should be changed.

I feel that putting a skill on a 5 sec (dat censor doe) CD and refunding half the initiative lost doesn’t seem all that unfair, but I’ll readily admit that I haven’t played enough of my thief to be certain. Right now there’s nearly no difference between interrupting a Thief and simply dodging the attack.

Dondagora you are really showing some serious patience against all these troll posts, man. Respect.

If this doesn’t prove to you all that he is trying to have a constructive, unbiased discussion and isn’t in fact crying for thief nerfs then nothing will. Least you can do is show the same respect he is showing y’all.

This is really just getting silly now, if we can push aside all the childish accusations of “ur bad. This is gibberish” and really have a discussion on the issue.

Thieves are immune to Power Block for the same reason they are immune to chill… Just because.

All the other examples given have a form of counterplay or a way of getting around it. Diamond Skin only works above 10% damage, zerk stance lasts a few seconds, some things are mitigated by the almighty dodge.

Power Block never has any chance of working on Thieves (in addition to being useless in PvE).

The question is whether or not this is actually good design, not over the math of how the skill works. The same way you say “lul play a thief” I could just as easily say “lel play a Mesmer and try that trait.”

So lets try this again, without the bias. I don’t think good that this trait works literally not at all against Thieves the same way I feel that Chill shouldn’t be just a glorified cripple for them. I feel like there should be an adjustment, even if there needs to be some sort of compensation as a result.

I meant fights ontop of the ship.

And you’re absolutely right but still… Fun casual map. It was part of my PvP hotjoin childhood, hate to see it go.

Capricorn was the most fun casual map ever. Had so many epic pirate ship fights…

I’ll still never understand the logic behind removing, rather than improving it. Or allowing us to play it in custom arenas at least

One day, staff ele…

Dude, scepter 2 torment was a MASSIVE buff to condi builds, despite how awkward the weapon is. And torment on auto is neat. Not what I wanted and not addressing the main issue, but still a good buff.

Advent.6193:

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Unless they revert the ileap nerf. =P

Sure, Chaos. They’ll revert the ileap nerf … just like Eles got the nerf on RtL removed. Or Glamour got put back to rights.

/shakefist

The civil war is real

Fay.2357:

Levetty.1279:

What people are forgetting is that even if the shield skills are good (which is highly doubtful) then we are still stuck with what weapon to use it with. Scepter will still be bad outside of its little niche leaving us with just sword. So what happens if we want to use another one of our off hands as well? Go S/Sh S/x? The diversity of the class!

This right here is the biggest problem. It’s not like we don’t already have great offhands. Focus is fantastic, pistol is fantastic, sword is fantastic, torch has a fantastic skill and a blooper…but doubled ranged sets are still extremely popular because our mainhands are just trash in so many situations. Shield could have the best and coolest skills in the game and a ton of people would still never touch it simply because you have to use a mainhand with it.

Unless they revert the ileap nerf. =P

Swish.2463:

Safe to assume there will be no extra utilities to compensate, that would be entirely unfair for classes that get less of these

I expect nothing on the grand scales of offering several classes (possibly) huge bonuses in customization just due to a bad design choice. It’ll have to be still on par with all other classes while compensating for less diversity and still be easy to balance (aka nerf) if it gets abused

Ya’ll keep chucking dynamite at my hypetain. =P Anyways, I think the extra utilities are actually the most likely. What’s “unfair” here is other classes getting a full 5 new skills while we get shafted with only two. The closest thing to ‘just as good’ would be compensating us for the skills we lost.

However, I don’t think that even the devs would be like “hey guys! We gave you some actually GOOD traits, because that wasn’t our original intent! =D Wahoo! Bye frands!”

Fay.2357:

Chaos Archangel.5071:

- Equipping Shield could alter mainhand abilities:

I view this as incredibly unlikely. It would be such an enormous change and a really dangerous precedent to set in terms of future development being immensely complicated. I’d actually recommend against the possibility of doing that.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

- 3 extra utilities:

This is a possibility…but I wouldn’t like it. We already have too many utilities that we want to slot at the same time. 3 extra ones is just going to give us more reasons to wish we had more utility slots…but no more utility slots to use.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

- Possibility of a revamped class mechanic:

I actually think that some sort of modification here is the most likely thing…purely by process of elimination. It’s the only viable option. Unfortunately, there’s almost zero chance of this being worthwhile enough to replace a mainhand weapon.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

- No NEW weapon doesn’t mean … Could HoT introduce offhands as mainhands? They specifically say that each class is getting only one new weapon, but they did not say whats happening with our older weapons.

C’mon, this is one titanic stretch and you know it.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

What do you think this “something just as good” could be?

I think it’s Jon Peters extemporizing on the spot to prevent from having to explain awful design decisions to people that actually have knowledge of game mechanics.

Pyro you are a bastion of hope. =P (And you’re kinda right, I couldn’t think of anything beyond Bountiful/Chaotic. Tho I hear Signet of the Ether is pretty good for PvE)

I definitely do think it’s a stretch for MH Pistol, but I don’t think it’s out of the realm of possibility. If we end up being the ONLY class that gets an offhand as a new weapon, then I do see the possibility of Pistol being pushed as mainhand. The only other class that has a weapon that can work as both mainhand AND offhand and isn’t atm is Necro’s axe.

The most likely scenario are more utilities, which opens up the possibility of “what if shatters are replaced with the ability to slot utility skills in our F1-F4?”

As for the shield granting different skills depending on whether or not you have a sword or scepter equipped, seems very possible to me… Or maybe the shield is a blank slate we can slot extra utilities in!? /hypetrain

Bountiful & Chaotic Interruption. =P

Advent.6193:

I’m holding out for -at the least- offhands as mainhands. It satisfies the MH Pistol and MH Focus desires, potentially.

• I don’t trust their abilty to create good Mesmer utilities. Need I mention how some of our signets are, let alone the “new” Mimic?
• Sure as Sin, they’re not going to code in changable OH skills based on MH weapon. Not just for Mesmers, at the very least.
• As for revamping the class mechanic, I also doubt it … if only because Shatters are a bit more finicky than -for instance- changing Adrenaline to not longer persist OOC, or tweaking Initiative gain ratio. They’d have to go into what each Shatter does, and how to alter it. This, mind you from the same folks who “fixed” Mimic, denied a broken P-zerker for months. and still won’t even bother to address swiftness stacking and Mesmer T. Curtain.
• Yes, I realise how grim I sound. However, I’m also a person who’s directly watched the nerf-cycle of this game. Hell, just using my two “main” choices (Mesmer/Thief), I’ve watched periods of time where either’d be screwed over. So, I hope for good things, but prepare for absolute suck.

Hey! I like Signet of Inspiration/Domination. =P Signet of Illusions isn’t bad either. And they DID make Portal/Decoy/Blink/Mantras (which are better on paper but still)/Glamours.

I think the changing shield skills based on MH is actually pretty possible since we only have two mainhands.

Syprus Soulslayer.1640:

Devil Mesmer Cry

Dude! Legit.

Me Games Ma.8426:

“Every profession is indeed only getting one new weapon. However, Jon Peters teased that classes getting an offhand would get something “just as good” as the extra three skills and that he couldn’t say more. I suspect that the specialization might unlock three new utility skills, but that’s my speculation." – Nefara
Taken from here

It turns out we’re not only getting an offhand. Apparently we’ll be getting something additional that other classes getting 2h weapons will not. I haven’t heard word of any classes getting a mainhand as of yet, so what do we know of so far?

• Thief: Rifle
• Guardian: Bow (Rumor)
• Ranger: Staff
• Engineer: Hammer
• Necro: Greatsword
• Mesmer: Shield
• Ele: ?
• Warrior: ?

So what could this be? There are a few possibilities here…

- Equipping Shield could alter mainhand abilities: Similar to a Thief, equipping a shield may change one or two of the skills on our two mainhand weapons. Illusionary Leap or Confusing Images could be changed to something different. Alternatively, shield skills could change depending on which mainhand is going with it. Alternatively alternatively..

- F1-F4 or Shield could be a blank slate that allows you to equip utilities: What if they replace our shatters with the ability to slot more utilities into our F1-F4? We ARE a utility class, after all. =P

- 3 extra utilities: Could it be that in addition to the 4 new utility weapons we could be receiving three more? While initially that doesn’t sound like an “equal” replacement to not getting a mainhand, keep in mind that utilities can go with ANY weaponset and isn’t limited to one. Assuming these three utilities are worthwhile, (/cough mimic) this offers the possibility of more build diversity than what we would’ve had with a mainhand weapon. Especially if these 7 new utilities are somehow slottable into our F1-F4 as previously mentioned.

- Possibility of a revamped class mechanic: While this seems the least likely, could it be that our class mechanic is so altered that in order to balance it out, they COULDN’T give us a new weapon? Will Chronomancer not be able to shatter illusions but gain F1 – F4 “Time Fields” with similar effects? Not likely, but possible.

- No NEW weapon doesn’t mean … Could HoT introduce offhands as mainhands? They specifically say that each class is getting only one new weapon, but they did not say whats happening with our older weapons. Of our offhands (Focus, Torch, Pistol, Sword) the only two that could make a viable mainhand are Sword and … Pistol! While I wouldn’t expect it, it isn’t impossible that classes only getting an offhand may be able to wield them in the mainhand and vice-versa.

I know speculation this early in won’t amount to much, but it also doesn’t hurt to discuss the possibilities. I don’t believe in sitting around going “anet sucks and everything they’ll produce is bad because everything they’ve ever done is bad.” when that point of view overlooks one major fact: Anet did still push out the class that we’re currently playing, and despite many missteps theres a lot to the base design Mesmer to enjoy. I 100% believe this expansion will give us atleast SOME viable new toys and open up more build diversity, so I don’t mind keeping cautious hopes.

What do you think this “something just as good” could be?

My apologies for the update delay. My computer is currently out of commission, and the update is too big for me to do at work. I’ll make subtle tweaks here and there to make sure everything already in the guide is current, but no new additions likely until the HoT Update.

This also means I wont be in-game for a while. =[ Still, feel free to shoot me any PMs if ya have any questions that the guide doesn’t cover.

Warlord of Chaos.7845:

I remember one year ago when I asked people if imbued should be standard and the only answer I got was “No, it would be OP”. Its interesting to see how that opinion has changed over one year. It seems everyone wants diversion to be aoe now (I would love it personally).

I do think imbued diversion in it’s current state (Wider diversion radius) would be leaning towards OP, but making it baseline with the range of normal shatters actually does seem reasonable.

.. o_O To be honest, I can’t remember my reasons as to why I felt it would be OP before. Different meta, I guess. Or could be that I said we’d get drowned in a flood of QQ tears and end up overnerfed.

Fay.2357:

At any rate, I don’t really see this as being a significant change from the mesmer point of view. The major difference will be that you won’t be able to strip/steal long duration stab from some of the transforms, but that’s not a huge change, just means that moa will become a bit more important vs transforms, and we’ll have even less reasons (if that’s even possible) to take arcane thievery or mimic.

Well Diversion will now strip stab even without shattered concentration. 3-clone diversion shatters will be a bit more important in any Mesmer build.

Henrik.7560:

http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Mesmer_-_Lockdown

Thanks for reminding me. I need to finish that page. x_x

Vigorous revelation is a very strong support trait. All of our AoE traits go in inspiration.

… Too bad Mesmer rarely dip into the inspiration line. And when they do there are so many good options that vigorous rev gets overlooked.

Huzzah!

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Guide-Lockdown-Mesmer-Tactics-Techniques

MailMail.6534:

Fay.2357:

MailMail.6534:

HYPE TRAIN!

Uhh. Hype for…what? Some nebulous thing that Jon Peters claims will be as good as having another mainhand weapon?

I’m hype, because we’re getting a new weapon that has a certain novelty about it, a new specialization that I’m looking forward to and a new pvp map that I’m VERY excited about! Yes, I would have much rather gotten a MH pistol, but I’ve already complained about that more than once, so why keep complaining? Yes, when you compare what we’re getting next to other classes, we might be getting a raw deal. That all being said, I’m not bogged down with pessimism like the majority of gw2 players, and I’m very happy with my gaming experience. I’m not saying people don’t have a reason to be pessimistic, but there’s no need to bring others down to your level just because you can. It’s unbecoming.

Now, I’m just more concerned about what shield skins I should buy before HoT.

Mail some people are just more averse to being let down than others. But I’m right aboard this hype train with ya.

Now wonder what this could be, assuming its not like a mini pet…
Extra elite? 3 extra utilities? Shield skills change depending on main hand weapon? Not too worried about cooldowns. Hell, look at Chaos Storm/Armor/Magic Bullet/Temporal Curtain, all 25s or higher.

Look at all these threads with this optimism vs pessimism split. Its like a Mesmer civil war!

Xaylin usually pops up with some cool ideas.

As for Portal.. I used to never take it for pretty much all of the above mentioned reasons. Was a shame too, because Portal is one of the skills that drew me to the class in the first place. But the CD was too steep and I never really felt effective using it like twice in a match. I’d usually always go Blink, Mantra of Distraction, and the glorious Null Field.

But then I decided to force myself to use it.. A lot.

I always felt Portal is such a staple Mesmer ability -something we could do that no other class could even duplicate- and such a cool idea that I had to learn to use it. It really sucked at first, I barely whipped it out in a match and when I did I usually failed with it more often than not, almost 3 or 4 separate times each day I’d wanna go back to good ol’ Null. I didn’t, though, and eventually all those screw ups and failcasts started to pay off.

Each mistake was a lesson I learned from subconsciously and eventually I started weaving together tactics and strategies for my portals. I’d inform my team “portal m-h” or “portal m-f” but I’d mostly be using it for myself. Now I can’t see a reason NOT to take it, its become so natural and so effective to use that I feel uncomfortable without it.

Good yolo portal plays can carry a bad team more than any other ability we have. Good portal plays with a good team is a massive advantage. Sure the CD sucks and the skill won’t be used more than 3 or 4 times in a PvP match, but those times end up being pivotal

Also.. Portal is just fun as hell in PvE when you get creative. =P

Yo Pyro I want you to make a promise.

If Mesmer gets more than 2 new weapon skills (either by a new mainhand or if the specialization changes any of our current weapon skills) or if there’s at least 5 viable new traits and 3 viable utilities or chronomancer brings viable build diversity to pvp/pve.

I want a public apology thread! If not there will totally be an “I sorta-kinda told you so” thread popping up.

Me Games Ma.8426:

Me Games Ma.8426:

Whenever I read something like this I get hyped to the max. Then after at least 2h someone comes up and drags me down to the hard and cold reality. (In most cases it’s Pyro)

Fay.2357:

Uh, no. You’re forgetting that chronomancer is explicitly a subset specialization of mesmer, not a new class. The class mechanics are not being rewritten, they’re being tweaked. Basically everything you’ve said there is being pulled directly out of you know where.

Aaaaaand again. ._.

Seriously I am hoping for a new class mechanic but as the ranger still keeps it’s pet I don’t really think it might happen.

Well if its any consolation, the altered class mechanic will likely either not effect illusions and instead alter some of our new abilities or will give entirely new shatter skills.

In either case, you can be sure Chronomancer will be a unique play style compared to mesmer, and its likely will have a new build category (ie Shatter Mesmer, Lockdown Mes, Lockdown Chronomancer, support chrono ECT.)

I seriously doubt Mesmer and Chronomancer will play the same, despite sharing skills.

Fay.2357:

“YOU PEOPLE ARE FORGETTING!!!!!

Mesmer and Chronomancer are different.
Chronomancer will have unique class mechanic different from the Mesmer. They will—"

Uh, no. You’re forgetting that chronomancer is explicitly a subset specialization of mesmer, not a new class. The class mechanics are not being rewritten, they’re being tweaked. Basically everything you’ve said there is being pulled directly out of you know where.

@Me Games Ma: Debates between Pyro and I must send you on an emotional rollercoaster. =P

Rome.7124:

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Dude.. You just went and cried in like four different threads.

I don’t know what kind of Mesmer you play, but it sounds like you really have the most unfun Mesmer ever, and I’m glad my experience has been nothing like yours.

I just started play more in sPvP, unfortunately, this is what I have to look forward to:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/The-finals-were-a-joke

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Mes-Nec-and-Ranger-need-buffs/page/2#post4861495

sure, sPvP is not all that GW2 has to offer, but it does shed a light on the state of Mesmer, which is in a good place.

I disagree.

What you have to look forward to is forming your own opinion based off YOUR individual experience. If you get killed and end up saying its because “mesmers are so bad right now” then you’re only fooling yourself.

The first thread you linked is complaining about the Celestial meta, which is pushing multiple builds out of competitive play and squeezing shut variety. The second thread is an argument over the same thing: The cele meta.

Buffing Mesmer to give them all the tool to be able to do everything is just… inane. As I said before I really don’t think any individual class is to blame, and I’m actually really against buffing anyone at the moment because I truly don’t think any individual class is the problem. Celestial Amulet is the problem. Yes, we are countered by thieves the way Engis are countered by Necros but your post..

Rome.7124:

welcome to GW2, here’s where I need to be honest with you:

- Mesmers are utility bots and people expect you to slot skills that benefit them instead of you
- Thieves eat you for breakfast, night and day, 24/7.
- your phantasms and clones are not fooling anyone, all sounds good on paper, but in reality, no real players get fooled often in PvP and WvW.
- you get to die a lot while looking good doing it, Mesmers fashion is 2nd to none compare to other classes.
- in the upcoming HOT expansion, other classes get a new main hand weapon, we get a off hand shield (less new weapon skills).

If this is literally all you’re experiencing on a Mesmer, you’re doing something wrong.

(Also, if you’re looking to learn how to rock out on Mes in PvP, and you’re in NA hit me up man. I bet we can change that opinion.)

Lishtenbird.2814:

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Dude.. I know its fun to look for reasons to rage but.. This is good news.

Combined with the defiance change, all we’ve seen are things looking up for Mesmer.

For PvP and the comparatively small, but vocal community of this subforum? Yes.

For PvE? No, since we all know that mesmers will be overnerfed (because ANET-MESMERS-OP-QQ-PLS-NERF) to the extent of being overshadowed by other classes in PvE all over again.

See this is what I’m talking about…

Fay.2357:

This is why when Anet says ‘Mesmer changes are going to be awesome and shake up the PvP landscape!’, I say ‘I don’t believe you.’ Time and time again we’ve been excited only to have a fast one pulled on us and have cool stuff ruined. This is why literally anything Anet does will be viewed as a hostile action towards mesmers unless absolutely proven otherwise. Why so many of us are pessimistic about this expansion, and why we really doubt that mesmer is truly going to get anything good with it. At this point, based on what I know, I’m definitely seeing the expansion to be a one-and-done type of deal that I play through and quit again because mesmer got nothing.

Pyro you wouldn’t be you if ya didn’t run up out of nowhere and dropkick me off my horse. =P

But here’s how I look at it: Power block sounded great on paper, and I do feel that the trait would not have come about if not from some input to the Mesmer community, similar to when we got Confounding Suggestions buffed:

JonathanSharp.7094:

Chaos Archangel.5071:

/grumble

Confounding Suggestions.. Ugh. I’d rather the stun. The daze duration synergizes beautifully with Runes of the Mesmer (which also needs a buff)

All of the changes are kind of awesome, but Confounding Suggestions barely merited Grandmaster as it is. What makes it so good is that the 50% stun chance makes it MUCH easier to chance down fleeing opponents as well as escape crappy situations. Increasing daze duration takes that away, but gives us the potential (w/Mesmer runes) for a near 2-second daze, making the DazeMantra -> OH SwordDaze -> DazeMantra combo into a beastly 6-second daze… assuming they don’t just run away from you.

I’d much rather them make the 25-point in Domination grant a 20% daze duration increase. The Confounding change is still barely grandmaster-worthy IMO, if its an addition to the stun chance, then it becomes freakin’ glorious and totally worth the 30 points.

Thanks for the feedback. We had the same discussion internally on that one. Back in alpha/beta, there were lockdown Mesmer builds that COULD keep someone down for 6-7 seconds…and it was brutal.

We’re afraid to go back to that, but as you can tell with these changes, we do want to augment the current Mesmer’s efficacy in regard to shutdown. It can just be scary if we go too high with it…..so we’ll think this one over some more.

So many quotes! But anyways, they were going to change CS from “50% chance for a daze to turn into a 1s stun” into “25% daze duration increase.” And because of our feedback (seriously, ours, not just my one post which wouldn’t have even made it there if not prompted by another) we got both effects merged.

If you want my honest opinion of what I’m realistically expecting?

• Of the entire new traitline, maybe 3-4 actually valuable traits.
• Of the 5 new utility sills (including elite) maybe 1-2 that I’ll actually use.
• Hype for dat shield tho. Sorry.

I don’t expect the expansion to be as game changing as advertised, and I completely understand pessimism and cynicism, especially with so many reasons to feel that way, but I cannot agree with turning any and all trace of potential good news into a reason to bash the devs and cry foul over future content that we know next to nothing about.

Zarathustra.1458:

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Dude.. I know its fun to look for reasons to rage but.. This is good news.

Combined with the defiance change, all we’ve seen are things looking up for Mesmer.

Chaos you show a little to much faith… I myself though, have my dreams, of a time where mesmer in a control orientated build has a life outside of PVP

Its not faith, its fact.

We’ve heard nothing but potential good news for Mesmer in the upcoming patch. Taking the quote “Mesmers specialization is gonna change PvP” and turning it into a QQ thread seems really out there to me.

So far we’ve heard of a potential for burst builds outside of PvP, a defiance change to bosses that looks pretty beneficial for us (and may possibly make Power Block not so terrible), and now word that our specialization is intended to be pretty impactful in PvP.

The only cause for worry is the already-established lack of faith in the devs, but not the good news we’ve been receiving.

Dude.. You just went and cried in like four different threads.

I don’t know what kind of Mesmer you play, but it sounds like you really have the most unfun Mesmer ever, and I’m glad my experience has been nothing like yours.

I think I like the shield and greatswords for the same reason you dislike them, Bliss.

They don’t fit.

Mesmer, IMO, is all about unorthodox. No one would expect a greatsword on a caster. The same way you don’t expect a mage holding a sword. Shield falls into that Mesmerish category of “wow I never expected this on a caster.”

Dude.. I know its fun to look for reasons to rage but.. This is good news.

Combined with the defiance change, all we’ve seen are things looking up for Mesmer.

FoRcExVoRtEx.9548:

i don’t know any mesmers who run bunker builds in *PvP

I do. Zeromis has. =P He’s a top player to boot.

Crap! Was supposed to bump this for yesterday , March 5th, the day of Mesmer’s passing!

#Neverontime

Vieux P.1238:

Nerfing the thief? no! Tweaking it to be adjusted.. Yes! But I would love to see mesmer retooned.. tweaked. at least not go down on the first 3 hits of the thief spams.

Then the real problem is lack of build diversity. =P An option to spec tankier while still being effective is needed. Hopefully the expansion will remedy this.

As a black man I’ve learned plenty about fighting for equal rights and seen more than my share of unfair dealings.

My point still stands: there is usually a plan and usually a goal. People don’t just scream out, there’s is sweat, blood, and tears poured into a unified ideal. Even if the methods are unorthodox, there is still a clear message desiring a specific result in many of the most influential protests

What would you like to see changed? Thieves nerfed? Mesmers buffed? Celestial nerfed? Is the problem really class-specific or an overarching issue with game balance? I’m fine with having a hard counter, but one hard counter doesn’t push a class out of the meta. A lack of defined role does.

Right now nearly all zerker classes are suffering, not just us.

I agree with skcamow, the problem is the meta moreso than the class.

Having a hardcounter isn’t a balance issue. Engis are hardcountered by Necros, Necros are completely shut down by lockdown Mesmer, Thieves have plenty of lousy matchups themselves. Check this from the How Mesmer Feel About Thieves thread in the Thief forum.

Arikyali.5804:

Meh..I get the feeling that thieves in general, are a little more ‘humble’ than mesmers. Usually. Not always. Just usually.

Mesmers hate thieves. It’s justified hate, it’s understandable hate, but it’s uneducated hate. I play both mesmer and thief, and I’ve see how they interact and counter each other. But if I try to defend a thief from mesmer, I know it’ll fall on deaf ears.

What counters a mesmer? Nothing but thief. What counters a thief? Everything but mesmer.

I’m in the minority here, but I feel Mesmer is pretty balanced for PvP atm. Yes Celestial Might Stacking is ridiculous, yes Engineers & some others need some tweeks, but things aren’t as terrible as this thread is making it out to seem.

There’s a lot that needs rebalancing, but this whack-a-mole stuff to fix class vs class interactions isn’t the way to go about it. And besides, what would you suggest? A buff to Mesmer? A nerf to Thieves? Crying just to make noise for a change is less likely to be listened to than a reasonable argument with reasonable requests.

That Sclerite shield goes perfect with my evil Mesmer

Mwahaha

I just think the term ‘#esports_rocket’ is hilarious

Shall be updating with notes on videos soon, going to be using Lavra’s WvW video, Holls’s PvP vids, and a few of my own. Anyone else got any suggestions?

@lujate Any condi build has trouble against necros. =[ For us its all about managing to constantly apply Scepter’s Torment while interrupting their deathshroud skills and dancing around their weaponskills

Doing damage with Lockdown is the main reason as to why it’s so difficult to learn. You need to have an understanding of manipulating shatters, phantasms, AND condition damage…

SHATTERS
Shattering with CI is harder than in a shatter build due to the lack of Illusionary Persona (Illusions XI) and longer cooldowns. To compensate, try to time your shatters with a bit more precision. Mind Wrack when enemies are surrounded by your clones or you’re dodging through them. Use Diversion [F3] to try to proc Halting Strike as Calliope mentioned. If you’re running CI (Chaos – XI) , Diversion shatters help immobilize enemies for your Phantasms to do damage. Speaking of which..

PHANTASMS
Phantasms are going to be a pretty significant source of damage for you, and will be one of your main ways of bursting down single targets. Unlike in a shatter build, where you’ll let the Phantasm get one attack off before shattering, in a lockdown build you want to try to allow for the phantasm to get two attacks off. Keeping phants up isn’t hard, but immobilizing enemies into the phantasms (such as temporal curtain cast -> summon focus iWarden -> pull curtain mid-summon so opponent is immob’d in the warden’s spin) attacks takes practice.

CONDITIONS
Condition damage isn’t something you’ll be actively aiming to apply, but should still keep in mind nonetheless. Most lockdown builds take Bountiful Interruption, which grants 5x Might per interrupt. After two interrupts, your condition damage starts to really sting, and weapons like staff, pistol, and scepter get a nice damage boost. It also doesn’t hurt that many lockdown builds have plenty of cover conditions to smother enemies with.

INTERRUPTS
Halting Strike can hit a thief or another mesmer for over 4k. Landing two interrupts within about 10 seconds can be devastating for squishier opponents, and still brutal on others. The honest truth is that you will NOT be doing significant damage without landing interrupts, thus learning how to manage landing an interrupt every 10-15 seconds or so is crucial, even if it means interrupting autoattacks.

If all that seems daunting.. well at first it is. Eventually it becomes so second-nature that it everything just seems to flow naturally. Focus on learning one aspect of lockdown at a time, starting with interrupts and moving on to shatters. Get into the habit of leaving phantasms lingering and shattering BEFORE summoning a phant (diversion into iWarlock is glorious).

If ya ever have any questions, always feel free!