Guild Wars 2

Krugan.7901:

Atherakhia.4086:

Nike.2631:

I have to admit, prior to this round of threads I was against a player council.

Now I’m considering it if it would give someone — anyone — real access to the people who actually make the decisions instead of a red named secretary passing notes and tossing out “insights” that are so simplistic and divorced from real gameplay as to be offensive. Busted Pet AI is “a broken 2×4.” Yeah, that one is going down in the Hall of Shame.

My only concern with a player council approach is the same problem I had with all those SotG podcasts that Grouch lead. They never looked at the class as a whole, they only ever focused on one little niche and so long as the Ranger offered something in that niche, they were under the impression the class was perfect.

It will be the same with the player council imo. Those who like the condi builds or prefer playing non-ranged rangers may not be able/willing to discuss these topics for the betterment of the class as a whole. They’ll simply accept that the way they play is safe and secure and ignore the issues that don’t directly affect them.

There are two things I clearly remember about that show
1) BM rangers OP!
2) Buff warriors, make ‘em even OP, I just wanna see warriors!
See where we are now. i don’t think it’s a good idea.

There was nothing more painfully 1-sided than those things were. Which is why I think a council approach is not a good idea. Unless everyone had such different ideas about the class, that the only thing they agree on is that the Ranger needs help, its going to eventually become a 1-sided point of view anyways.

That’s why I would like to just make 1 thread at a time, 1 week at a time, 1 topic at a time, and gather everyone’s opinions in one place for each different aspect of the Ranger, no matter who is giving the opinion. An outsider/inexperienced perspective isn’t going to be as good as an insider/experienced perspective, but, the way other professions see the Ranger is still valuable.

The need to summarize the threads is important though, and its something that none of us were willing to do with the Ranger CDI…If we can summarize all the posts into an easy to read format like what people did early on to some of the other CDI threads, I think it just might work.

Forzani.2584:

Stop the reliance on Anet. Infact, to hell with them

Unfortunatley Anet is the one that would be making any changes so yea, they are kind of needed.

I’m just saying to hell with anet as far as getting a community run thread going. The reason for that is……Anet doesn’t really seem to care anyways when it comes to taking an active part in the discussion.

Let the players themselves run the discussion, and if someone from Anet feels like posting (like in the Ranger Balance Thread), great. Otherwise, our constant waiting on Anet to start things for us is never going to get anything constructive done.

And I would still like to try it, without any specific player council. I think its a good thing to get as many different opinions on something as possible, even outsider opinions, so we don’t end up with a 1 sided point of view.

The one thing we need to do, is find a way to summarize everyone’s opinions at the end of the thread every week before the next one gets opened, because for the 1 CDI thread that I think worked (horizontal progression), those summaries were extremely helpful in showing where exactly the players stood on every issue brought up in the thread.

I’ll admit, I totally forgot the new season was starting next week…Lets do WvW instead. And I don’t think any topic is too broad, as long as it generally sticks to one profession (Ranger in this case). I’d rather keep the thread in one specific subforum though, since having 2 different threads with the same title might get confusing to follow.

And yeah, any player should be entitled to make a post and give their thoughts, not just Rangers.

Instead of venting your frustration here, what are you going to do about it?

My suggestion? Create a Thread every week in the Balance Forums. Title it

“[Ranger]Roundtable Discussion : X”

Where X can be :::

• Pets
• Shouts
• Signets
• Longbow
• Sword
• Traits
• Traps
• Burst vs. Sustained
• Split Focus vs. Single Focus
• Etc.

The Rules are simple

• Everyone is allowed 1 post to tell everyone their view on the current state of what the topic is about, and their suggestions for fixing it if they want to offer a suggestion.

• No multi-post cross discussions, no Arguments. No personal attacks.

• No Chrispy calling out someone like a broken record for posting the 150th kill shot suggestion (….as much as I would like to…)(yes, I am admitting fault for my contribution to the mess).

• Format your posts however you want, as long as they still follow forum rules.

• Everyone in the thread is equal and everyone is entitled to their opinion, whether its a trollish person saying “pets suck, remove them please”, or its a post that goes into every detail on what is wrong with pets, or its someone saying that “pets are just fine the way they are,… nerf please”

• The Thread stays open for one week, at which point, the next Roundtable thread is opened for the next topic. If you really want to, instead of such a chivalrous name as Roundtable, we can title it Hunter’s Gathering or something, the only reason is so all the threads have the same title, so we can access them easily.

Stop the reliance on Anet. Infact, to hell with them. Its one of the reasons the CDI got so out of control. We kept venting our frustrations elsewhere until the moment came when Anet finally said they were going to listen (without actually listening). Then the CDI got flooded, and Anet themselves were never able to bring the mess together. We don’t need a CDI, just a way to gather everyone’s opinions in one place, and in an organized format. Personally, I think the CDI’s are a mess anyways,…every single one of them have been a mess of some caliber, and the suggested proposal format itself isn’t exactly the best format in the world either.

If anyone has a better format or way to go about this, please say so. If its a good idea, lets start the first thread tonight. 9Personally I don’t think it should be pet related to start. Let that issue come later. Lets start with the Longbow or something, so everyone knows where the community as a whole stands on the Longbow. It could be 150 posts in agreement, or 150 posts that all say something different. It would still be better than the mess that came out of the CDI.)

(1) Subclasses, Weapons, and Trait Evolution
This game has gotten stale. Its been almost 4 months since the last balance patch, and I am no longer content with just simple balance changes every quarter year. I want to see new actual new content in the form of new utility skills, weapons, traits, even specializations that take the profession in an entirely new direction (sub-classes). The game has been out for 18 months, its time to start putting new stuff in the game other than story and cosmetic items.

(2) – Creature Balance
Some enemies are easy to kill, which is, pretty much everything that existed since before the living world (except maybe Orr). Some creatures are very difficult to kill, pretty much everything that existed after the living world. There is a huge disconnect in the balance between the two. You can fight a group of enemies in a pre-living world level 80 area, and never have any trouble with any build, then you fight just two Aetherblades in Lion’s Arch, and suddenly you are stunned/dazed/immobilized/etc. every 5 seconds and the enemies are using control effects faster than you can react. Where else in the game does this happen pre-living world?

This large difference in balance philosophy between different enemies in the game should be talked about, and Anet needs to address just where they want to take the difficulty in the future, because, the constant increasing of enemy power without an equal increase in player power/tools/strategies is going to turn people away from the game eventually. Its what turned me away from Guild Wars 1, because the enemy difficulty required that you rely on 1 or 2 cheesy builds to faceroll through the entire game instead of taking advantage of the thousands of options you had.

(3) Underwater content
Yeah…it was heavily advertised, but since release, its kind of fallen off, and is almost entirely ignored. If we are going to be fighting a Elder Dragon in the Future (that is literally a ‘Deep Sea’ dragon), then the Underwater combat needs some serious attention and expansion.

….nope, those are my top 3. I don’t need to list 10.

Blade Shards can be duplicated in the Mystic forge as long as you still have atleast 1 remaining.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blade_Shard

Sera.6539:

Oulov.7913:

This one is with female vocal and I think it’s even better:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nl_rsTre628

Sharm did a great job with the addition of female vocals as a standalone version. However, in a sense of in game during the battle, I don’t think the vocals fit very well.

There’s a point when there’s too much going on, and if vocals like that were in the music in the game, it would have been more distracting than enjoyable.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Chrispy.5641:

There’s that ‘Our skills should be the exact same as all the other professions’ argument again (Our shouts should give allies buffs, just like our great and powerful overlords the Guardian and Warrior).

Do you have any other reason that doesn’t involve invoking other professions?

I don’t have to buff other ppl to make use of shouts. I’m running a condition-shout build on my warrior as example. I don’t reach those high numbers you may be familiar with but its very funny to play. I heal myself, cure conditions and stack adrenaline when I use a shout. Furthermore, they’re on ~18 seconds cooldown.
If you’re running the ranger shouts, you get nearly no advantage at all in PvE or vs. normal mobs in general.

• Warrior shouts at the fastest, are on a 20 second cooldown.

• Guard on a 12 second cooldown to give my pet almost permanent protection uptime. Keeps it from dying to 1 shot attacks from bosses. the extra stuff is extra, and being to keep dealing 100% of my damage 100% of the time really helps.
  • Now, if pets were fixed to where this wasn’t a problem, then guard would be useless.
• Sic Em for a 10 second 40% damage and speed increase. Even better when combined with a fully buffed cat/bird through beastmastery, master’s bond, and might stacking. The damage it does is often greater than I could achieve by myself. Its kind of a literal glass cannon though, so, having Guard or Signet of Stone around ensures that all the damage gets done. the 3 second reveal is nice too.
  • If pets were fixed so they didn’t need so many buffs to deal decent damage, then this skill might be a little over powered, and need to change.
• Protect me to get a few seconds of taking no damage. Not a smart idea to use a glassy pet, but bears and drakes have no problem lasting all 6 seconds. forcing enemies to take 6 more seconds to kill you often gives your other skills time to recharge or redo your plan a little.
  • If this skill made your pet take 50% less damage or something, or let it continue attacking, then it would be perfect, but I do not agree that this skill is useless in its current form.
• Search and Rescue……you got me there, but that’s about it.
  • If the pet could revive faster, this skill would see more use, but as it is, the skill has its purpose, and there is nothing I can think of that makes this skill bad, only pointless to carry in 99% of all situations.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Chrispy.5641:

Substance E.4852:

Chrispy.5641:

Forzani.2584:

Yoh.8469:

Just a note of interest.
I’m playing around with a Nature’s Voice build and I noticed something rather odd.
Why does Guard have a 1 sec cast time? Really, I want to know.
I can’t make heads or tails of it, that a skill type which has always been defined by having instant cast times, doesn’t.
Not that the rest of their functionality has anything to do with shouts either.
It’s just a really weird design choice.

Can’t remember the name, but he will make an appearance telling you that it needs a 1 sec cast time or else it would be overpowered. That a shout isn’t always a shout

And he makes an appearance! But, Its getting pointless to keep arguing this against you guys. I mean, yeah, sure, it gives your pet 10 seconds of Stealth and Guard to start with, and that balancing considerations were made, (and had to be), when thinking of traits like Nature’s Voice and Shout Mastery (plus the 30% boon duration in nature magic to get nature’s voice), and I would have to say that its a pretty balanced skill because it keeps your pet alive even through boss fights, and it gives you a source of regen and swiftness if you don’t have any. Not all skills need to deal damage, and not all skills need to affect allies by default, even if they are shouts. It could benefit the Ranger a little more by default, so it would be a useful skill without needing to waste 40 trait points, but the skill isn’t terrible in its current form.

Oh wait, I forgot! you guys don’t care about all that! I could explain all day why Guard works the way it works, but, Just like the “Stealth, Cool!!!” people on the longbow, there are the “Its supposed to be instant, nothing else matters!!” people when it comes to shouts.

Dude, just let it go. None of us with your “logic” and you aren’t going to convince us with fairy tails of how “borderline OP” Guard is.

I never said it was OP, just that its fine the way it is, and that its not a terrible skill. I’ll let it go when you can give me a single reason why the skill is worthlessly underpowered, and saying that its supposed to be a insta cast shout skill isn’t good enough of a reason beyond “Shouts are supposed to be instant!”

Th reason is that all classes who have shouts can use shoutbuilds and be somewhat effective with it, except the ranger.

There’s that ‘Our skills should be the exact same as all the other professions’ argument again (Our shouts should give allies buffs, just like our great and powerful overlords the Guardian and Warrior).

Do you have any other reason that doesn’t involve invoking other professions?

Substance E.4852:

Chrispy.5641:

Forzani.2584:

Yoh.8469:

Just a note of interest.
I’m playing around with a Nature’s Voice build and I noticed something rather odd.
Why does Guard have a 1 sec cast time? Really, I want to know.
I can’t make heads or tails of it, that a skill type which has always been defined by having instant cast times, doesn’t.
Not that the rest of their functionality has anything to do with shouts either.
It’s just a really weird design choice.

Can’t remember the name, but he will make an appearance telling you that it needs a 1 sec cast time or else it would be overpowered. That a shout isn’t always a shout

And he makes an appearance! But, Its getting pointless to keep arguing this against you guys. I mean, yeah, sure, it gives your pet 10 seconds of Stealth and Guard to start with, and that balancing considerations were made, (and had to be), when thinking of traits like Nature’s Voice and Shout Mastery (plus the 30% boon duration in nature magic to get nature’s voice), and I would have to say that its a pretty balanced skill because it keeps your pet alive even through boss fights, and it gives you a source of regen and swiftness if you don’t have any. Not all skills need to deal damage, and not all skills need to affect allies by default, even if they are shouts. It could benefit the Ranger a little more by default, so it would be a useful skill without needing to waste 40 trait points, but the skill isn’t terrible in its current form.

Oh wait, I forgot! you guys don’t care about all that! I could explain all day why Guard works the way it works, but, Just like the “Stealth, Cool!!!” people on the longbow, there are the “Its supposed to be instant, nothing else matters!!” people when it comes to shouts.

Dude, just let it go. None of us with your “logic” and you aren’t going to convince us with fairy tails of how “borderline OP” Guard is.

I never said it was OP, just that its fine the way it is, and that its not a terrible skill. I’ll let it go when you can give me a single reason why the skill is worthlessly underpowered, and saying that its supposed to be a insta cast shout skill isn’t good enough of a reason beyond “Shouts are supposed to be instant!”

Forzani.2584:

Yoh.8469:

Just a note of interest.
I’m playing around with a Nature’s Voice build and I noticed something rather odd.
Why does Guard have a 1 sec cast time? Really, I want to know.
I can’t make heads or tails of it, that a skill type which has always been defined by having instant cast times, doesn’t.
Not that the rest of their functionality has anything to do with shouts either.
It’s just a really weird design choice.

Can’t remember the name, but he will make an appearance telling you that it needs a 1 sec cast time or else it would be overpowered. That a shout isn’t always a shout

And he makes an appearance! But, Its getting pointless to keep arguing this against you guys. I mean, yeah, sure, it gives your pet 10 seconds of Stealth and Guard to start with, and that balancing considerations were made, (and had to be), when thinking of traits like Nature’s Voice and Shout Mastery (plus the 30% boon duration in nature magic to get nature’s voice), and I would have to say that its a pretty balanced skill because it keeps your pet alive even through boss fights, and it gives you a source of regen and swiftness if you don’t have any. Not all skills need to deal damage, and not all skills need to affect allies by default, even if they are shouts. It could benefit the Ranger a little more by default, so it would be a useful skill without needing to waste 40 trait points, but the skill isn’t terrible in its current form.

Oh wait, I forgot! you guys don’t care about all that! I could explain all day why Guard works the way it works, but, Just like the “Stealth, Cool!!!” people on the longbow, there are the “Its supposed to be instant, nothing else matters!!” people when it comes to shouts.

Prysin.8542:

Gotejjeken.1267:

Yeah, I’m fairly sure no one internally wants to go near Ranger because it is not ‘fun’ and thus does not deserve to be played or balanced properly.

ironically, as a player, i find the ranger more fun and engaging then the other professions, simply because you have to think when playing it, you cannot just mindlessly walk around the place spamming 11111111111111 F1 1111111 F1 54111111111111111 F1 411

….I think you missed a 3 in there somewhere…I’ll fix it for you..

11111111111111 F1 31111111 F1 54111111111111111 F1 411

There. Its fixed!

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Chrispy.5641:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Chrispy.5641:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Chrispy.5641:

I want to be useful, not just reviving downed people. I want to be the “I got this” guy.
And please stop this “I don’t want to be a second …” nonsense.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I’ll stop it when people stop saying we need to be as good as X class at Y. No, what we need is for our class to work better at what it does or what it theoretically does.

I wont stop stating that the ranger has to be competitive in PvE. I wont say “Oh, ele FGS so OP, ranger needs that too” but other classes can deal way more damage, or to keep it more general, other classes are way more effective in what they do than we are able to do and that has to be changed.

Looks like we are fine at dealing damage in PvE. Youtube Proves it!!!

Though, if you don’t want to bend over backwards when it comes to dealing a large amount of damage like that video,…the first step would be to nerf what makes us that strong (signets). The second step would be to nerf what is making the pet that strong (signets and Companion’s Might). The third step would be to finally increase the damage that weapons do, but, you’re foolish if you think that anything’s going to get more than a 10% damage increase from those nerfs.

Yeaah, you have an uptime of 6 seconds and a cooldown of 40 seconds minimum.
Also it’s just spamming sword autoattack again. Ah yeah, and Maul.

I never said it wasn’t a boring way to play. The fact that we can do that at all though, is the reason why the damage split exists between us and our pets, why our weapons deal so little damage compared to other professions, and why everyone thinks we can’t play as well as other professions. The video proves we can. Now what would you suggest we change about it so we don’t have to use 1 trick ponies just to compete with other professions?

And the suggest buff cannot come without the suggested nerfs as well.

No, this video just shows how we could do. If the pet would hit all the time, never dies, with just one enemy who isn’t moving. That’s not how this works. It will never work that way if you aren’t playing vs. dummies.

And changes I would suggest? Still this one: Awesome Suggestion

And there is a 100% chance of that buff still, coming with a nerf. We will no longer have that split focus between us and our pets, and you can definitely kiss signets goodbye. And removing pet damage will not automatically mean a 30% damage buff either, since many of our pets can’t even deal that much damage. That’s not the bad thing in this whole discussion. The bad thing through all of this hase been the refusal to accept that fact by people such as yourself.

It’s ok if they have to tone some things down. They could as example lower the damage we get through sigils and buff the damage the pet gains, so that beastmaster still stays viable.
As for the damagebuff: We would get 30% of our damage back. It takes away some versatility (no more tank pet + zerker ranger or tank ranger + zerker pet), but still, we get back the damage that has been cut off in order to justify the pet. And if I’m not mistaken, it must be around 30%.

Or, they could just buff our pets with Sigils, Runes, Potions, and food to start with.

No matter what the actual damage split is between Ranger and Pet (even if its 99%/1%), we benefit the least from the stat increases from all of these items.

For example, a Sigil of force. 5% damage increase right?….WRONG!
Ranger ::: 70% + 5% = 73.5%
Pet ::: 30% + 0% = 30%
Total = 103.5% instead of 105% damage. And if the pet is dead, our damage is even worse.

Stuff like that needs to be addressed too.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Chrispy.5641:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Chrispy.5641:

I want to be useful, not just reviving downed people. I want to be the “I got this” guy.
And please stop this “I don’t want to be a second …” nonsense.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I’ll stop it when people stop saying we need to be as good as X class at Y. No, what we need is for our class to work better at what it does or what it theoretically does.

I wont stop stating that the ranger has to be competitive in PvE. I wont say “Oh, ele FGS so OP, ranger needs that too” but other classes can deal way more damage, or to keep it more general, other classes are way more effective in what they do than we are able to do and that has to be changed.

Looks like we are fine at dealing damage in PvE. Youtube Proves it!!!

Though, if you don’t want to bend over backwards when it comes to dealing a large amount of damage like that video,…the first step would be to nerf what makes us that strong (signets). The second step would be to nerf what is making the pet that strong (signets and Companion’s Might). The third step would be to finally increase the damage that weapons do, but, you’re foolish if you think that anything’s going to get more than a 10% damage increase from those nerfs.

Yeaah, you have an uptime of 6 seconds and a cooldown of 40 seconds minimum.
Also it’s just spamming sword autoattack again. Ah yeah, and Maul.

I never said it wasn’t a boring way to play. The fact that we can do that at all though, is the reason why the damage split exists between us and our pets, why our weapons deal so little damage compared to other professions, and why everyone thinks we can’t play as well as other professions. The video proves we can. Now what would you suggest we change about it so we don’t have to use 1 trick ponies just to compete with other professions?

And the suggest buff cannot come without the suggested nerfs as well.

No, this video just shows how we could do. If the pet would hit all the time, never dies, with just one enemy who isn’t moving. That’s not how this works. It will never work that way if you aren’t playing vs. dummies.

And changes I would suggest? Still this one: Awesome Suggestion

And there is a 100% chance of that buff still, coming with a nerf. We will no longer have that split focus between us and our pets, and you can definitely kiss signets goodbye. And removing pet damage will not automatically mean a 30% damage buff either, since many of our pets can’t even deal that much damage. That’s not the bad thing in this whole discussion. The bad thing through all of this hase been the refusal to accept that fact by people such as yourself.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Chrispy.5641:

I want to be useful, not just reviving downed people. I want to be the “I got this” guy.
And please stop this “I don’t want to be a second …” nonsense.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I’ll stop it when people stop saying we need to be as good as X class at Y. No, what we need is for our class to work better at what it does or what it theoretically does.

I wont stop stating that the ranger has to be competitive in PvE. I wont say “Oh, ele FGS so OP, ranger needs that too” but other classes can deal way more damage, or to keep it more general, other classes are way more effective in what they do than we are able to do and that has to be changed.

Looks like we are fine at dealing damage in PvE. Youtube Proves it!!!

Though, if you don’t want to bend over backwards when it comes to dealing a large amount of damage like that video,…the first step would be to nerf what makes us that strong (signets). The second step would be to nerf what is making the pet that strong (signets and Companion’s Might). The third step would be to finally increase the damage that weapons do, but, you’re foolish if you think that anything’s going to get more than a 10% damage increase from those nerfs.

Yeaah, you have an uptime of 6 seconds and a cooldown of 40 seconds minimum.
Also it’s just spamming sword autoattack again. Ah yeah, and Maul.

I never said it wasn’t a boring way to play. The fact that we can do that at all though, is the reason why the damage split exists between us and our pets, why our weapons deal so little damage compared to other professions, and why everyone thinks we can’t play as well as other professions. The video proves we can. Now what would you suggest we change about it so we don’t have to use 1 trick ponies just to compete with other professions?

And the suggest buff cannot come without the suggested nerfs as well.

I want to be useful, not just reviving downed people. I want to be the “I got this” guy.
And please stop this “I don’t want to be a second …” nonsense.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I’ll stop it when people stop saying we need to be as good as X class at Y. No, what we need is for our class to work better at what it does or what it theoretically does.

I wont stop stating that the ranger has to be competitive in PvE. I wont say “Oh, ele FGS so OP, ranger needs that too” but other classes can deal way more damage, or to keep it more general, other classes are way more effective in what they do than we are able to do and that has to be changed.

Looks like we are fine at dealing damage in PvE. Youtube Proves it!!!

Though, if you don’t want to bend over backwards when it comes to dealing a large amount of damage like that video,…the first step would be to nerf what makes us that strong (signets). The second step would be to nerf what is making the pet that strong (signets and Companion’s Might). The third step would be to finally increase the damage that weapons do, but, you’re foolish if you think that anything’s going to get more than a 10% damage increase from those nerfs.

How would I Fix Longbow? (PvE/WvW)
(I don’t play PvP, and I’m not interested)
- First, lets see what Allie put in her post about is a week ago :::

Longbow: Reward max range and synergize with pet.

1. Vulnerability instead of damage increase with range (s1), cripple (s2), immobilize (s3), knockdown (s5)
2. Pet might (s3), swiftness (s2), regen (s5)

I’ve been getting an English Longbow kind of feel from this weapon ever since I started using it. And compared to how well the French did against the English in the Battle of Agincourt (read, the French gots stomped!), I am convinced that’s what the longbow in Guild Wars 2 is supposed to be, a weapon that rewards playing at max range, and punishes enemies that think they can get in close range to attack you.

1) – I think that all weapons should synergize wih the pet (and have a trait to synergize with us instead if pet is dead or stowed), so, I won’t worry about that.

2) – Skill changes I would propose :::

• 1. Long Range Shot – Unchanged from what it is (as far as physical damage goes). While it deals damage at maximum range, it should punish enemies in a different way that get too close. It should be punishing enemies that try to move closer to you, so I think that if an enemy is less than 1,000 range to you, it should apply a stack of ::: Cripple Torment or Vulnerability

• 2. Rapid Fire – Unchanged from what it is (as far as physical damage goes). The Vulnerability should also remain unchanged. There is 2 changes I would like to make for it though.
  1. At Maximum Range (more than 1000) Rapid Fire should apply 2 stacks of Vulnerability instead, so it still deals more damage at more distant ranges.
  2. At Minimum Range (less than 1000) Rapid Fire should shoot faster. This is similar to real world archers finding their target faster at closer and closer ranges. It could fire 10% faster every 100 range the enemy is closer yo you than 1000 range, with a cap at 50% faster than how it fires now.

• 3. Hunter’s Shot – (I have a problem with the Stealth, because there is quite a few skills that can cancel it if they are already firing off. Stealth should be removed, and given to us in another way (I vote shortbow or Utilities), because as cool as Stealth is, its still useless because of the nature of too many of our skills (not just barrage).)
  1. At Maximum Range (more than 1000), This skill should cripple the enemy, and give you and your pet Swiftness. This gives you a choice to either move closer or farther away from the enemy to set up your other longbow skills.
  2. At minimum Range (less than 1000), This Skill Rips a Boon off the Enemy, and gives it both you and your pet (and synergy with Fortifying bond), and still gives your pet swiftness.
  3. At any Range, This Skill should apply Opening Strike, without the need to take any traits.

• 4. Point Black Shot – This Skill works in the opposite way that Long Range Shot does. I think the Damage should be increased to reflect that, and also really punish enemies that are at an actual Point Blank Range.
  1. At 600+ Range – 400 Knockback, and the same damage LB#1 does at close range.
  2. At 300-600 Range – 500 Knockback, and the same damage as LB#1 does at medium range.
  3. Less than 300 Range – Enemy gets Launched instead. Deals as much damage as LB#1 does at max range.
  4. Eagle eye trait should increase the ranges that these effects work at.

• 5. Barrage – I have no problems with how the skill works by default. You are sacrificing 2.75 seconds for 12 seconds of sustained damage and cripple. That is more than a fair trade. The only problem I really have with this skill is that Piercing arrows doesn’t work with it. If you increase the targets it can hit, then you die faster from retaliation. If you decrease the targets, and make it a killshot style skill, then you defeat the purpose of the longbow, which is supposed to be a max range weapon. So what do you do?
  1. Eagle Eye – This Trait now Doubles the Maximum Targets that Barrage can affect.
  2. Nature’s Protection – This Trait now prevents retaliation when using AoE skills (and also makes the trait more useful than 5 secs of protection,…every 30 seconds). As an Alternate, it gives Retaliation damage you recieve to your pet instead.

• On stealth I think Stealth should be moved to the Shortbow because that is a weapon where you have to move to the side or behind an enemy in order to set up attacks (such as concussion shot). I also think that we could benefit even more if we had a utility skill that applied stealth instead, like a Dust Trap, or a Camouflage survival skill for example.

Atherakhia.4086:

2.) …But that doesn’t change the simple fact that the way Barrage interacts with it isn’t also broken. You’re really not making a point much like most of your arguments.

3.) Again, you’re not making any point.

4.) Because the sustain model set forth by ANet simply can’t work….. I keep bringing burst and AE up because ANet needs to realize that the sustained DPS model will not work. EVER.

5.) …. Thus why the MECHANIC is being discussed and not its damage. Just like we’ve discussed the MECHANICS behind signets…..

6.) No, they don’t do that Chrispy and if you’d stop being a TROLL for 1 post in a row … If traps, torch, horn, our elites, and barrage applied the pressure you think they did, this class would have … useful to offer WvW. Guess what, it doesn’t! Thus the reason this CDI thread even exists in the first place!

7.) Barrage’s damage is inconsequential as I mentioned above. The cripple is also of limited value given the delay in its cast and the mobile way this game is played….

2) Not making a point to what? Do I need to spell it out? You complained that Retaliation reflects too much of the damage Barrage does, so I countered that it also reflects alot of the damage that many of our other skills do. Then I said that its the same way with other professions, and that this is a problem with Retaliation, not with Barrage.

I’m pretty sure the point was made, whether you want to listen to it or not.

3) Yeah, because stealth always wins automatically over all our other skills, thats why it should stay, and barrage should go? Do you have any other reason why Hunter’s Shot is more valuable…you know, counter to the reasons I already stated why it interferes with alot more of our skills than just barrage. (oh hey, there’s another point that you refuse to acknowledge!)

4) Sustained works just fine for me in PvE, and WvW (and even though I don’t play PvP, the most popular Ranger builds are currently a sustain build). Traps (our AE) also works just fine for me. Using the Longbow for its intended purpose (max. Range) works fine for me as well. Do you have any examples for why Sustained doesn’t work? If you want to bring the whole “Dps is all that matters” into the argument, go on ahead, but DPS is not all that matters. I can run through dungeons just fine in sustain and defensive builds, I run with other people who think the same, and I don’t need the 1% Top, World Record Dungeon Runners to come up to me and tell me otherwise.

5) And I’ve discussed the mechanics behind the ‘Killshot Style’ Skill, and I keep saying it won’t work because of how Signets are designed. I also talked how this killshot style skill will make you stop to cast, and having 2 skills like that on Longbow is a bad thing. I also stated that the Longbow is a weapon that rewards playing at MAXIMUM RANGE, and this killshot style skill, if implemented, will no longer reward playing at maximum range. Seriously, I’ve been talking about mechanics inbetween what you have been calling pointless points.

6) Yes, Atherakhia, They all do, and it is the way I play in WvW. I use traps, Torch and Warhorn(when attacking), and Longbow(when defending) to put pressure on Enemies. I would explain how I do it (for the fifth time in this thread), but you don’t seem to want to listen. And the CDI exists because the Ranger is less than Optimal, not because we need to dramatize every aspect of the class, and completely overhaul everything about it.

7) Wait, an extra 1-2K damage per second on top of what you are dealing with your weapon is inconsequential? So is the Cripple? That damage is enough extra damage to force enemies to get the heck out of the barrage circle, or risk dying, from the inconsequential 12-24K damage you are applying in addition to your other weapons.

8)…

8.) …Nothing useful other than TROLL

That doesn’t even deserve a response.

Atherakhia.4086:

Barrage needs to be removed because it brings you out of stealth and makes it impossible to use Hunter’s Shot while barrage is doing damage. That’s the problem. It seems like the only reason Hunter’s Shot was given to us was so we could cast barrage.

On top of that, Barrage does very poor damage (to the point retaliation actually reflects 50 to 75% of it), it applies a cripple but can’t be used to kite due to the channel time, and there’s nothing else on the weapon to really compliment it.

The difference between things like traps and other utilities breaking stealth is they aren’t on the same weapon. I can’t think of another weapon in the game that has 2 skills that can’t be used together. Can you? Traps breaking stealth hasn’t gotten in the way of Thieves, it isn’t an issue for Rangers. Swapping weapons while barrage is going is reaching.

So then you’ll complain about replacing a channeled spell with another skill that has a channel time. The difference would be a real reward and benefit for casting a ‘kill shot’ style attack against what minimal value you gained from casting barrage.

And another thing… when people ask for the Ranger to get kill shot, they’re only talking about the mechanics of the spell, not a carbon copy. No matter what, the Ranger’s would do 30% less damage to begin with even if it were an identical copy.

What the Ranger needs is some way to apply pressure to the target it’s trying to kill. Sustained damage and no way to elevate above what auto-attack provides isn’t effective. This is why people have been begging for a burst skill and a second off rapid fire since page one. This is why Rangers are laughed out of borderlands. This is why no sane guild is recruiting rangers of any skill level.

(numbered by paragraph)

1) If we were given Hunter’s Shot just so we could cast barrage, then why don’t all professions have stealth on a weapon with that long of a cast time? Go on ahead and say “Well, that’s other professions, we’re talking about Ranger”, but you’re argument for us having a killshot style skill is the same as my example argument for stealth,…because other professions have one, and Ranger doesn’t.

2) And Retaliation reflects 150% of the damage Hunter’s Call does. It also reflects 125% of the damage that low damage skills like Traps and Bonfire does. Should those also be replaced too, because Retaliation reflect a base damage number instead of damage as a percentage done? Should all the other skills that other professions do be replaced because of that? That sounds more like a problem with Retaliation itself instead of a problem with Ranger skills.

3) And you still refuse to accept that Barrage was on the weapon first, probably because “B-But, STEALTH!”. No, not but stealth.

4) Again, Killshot style skill is a burst. If Rangers are supposed to be a sustain class, then why do you keep insisting on what is clearly a BURST skill?

5) Except that we have signets that, like I stated earlier, would make our damage far exceed what any other class could do with the same burst skill, even with a 30% damage reduction. I hate to break it to you, but, that’s too strong. Haven’t you seen out 1 shot Maul attack?

And, go on ahead and argue that its a 1 trick pony. Well, it doesn’t matter. Anet is going to balance based on our maximum damage potential (as I said earlier), and will make it to where our “killshot style” skill is never that strong. It will be nerfed to uselessness unless you bother to maximize your damage (which you should be doing anyways, by for example, combining the damage from barrage with your other longbow skills)

6) And Barrage does that. It deals damage and applies Pressure while you are using other attacks. Toch and Warhorn both do that, and traps do that. A Burst doesn’t do that. There is no pressure from burst. Seriously, prove to me that burst applies any pressure at all.

Another thing you keep forgetting about Barrage is that it is going off while you are using other skills. That combined with the cripple is what pressure is. You are supposed to be adding the damage from that to the damage you are dealing with your other attacks. I believe I explained that in a previous thread, a thread that you were oddly silent on after I made this point. I also explained why Rapid fire does about the same damage as our Auto Attack does, because the weapon is supposed to be rewarding damage at maximum range. If you give us a high damage burst skill that works at any range (like what you keep suggesting), then the weapon will no longer reward fighting at maximum range.

So, in conclusion before I hand the argument back to you….

FIND A DIFFERENT WAY TO CHANGE RAPID FIRE! YOUR SUGGESTION IS A BAD ONE!

HumaCarrionEater.8254:

I love Kas and Jory, but they’re not exactly breaking the mold. I think conventionally attractive women in a lesbian relationship is a lot easier for most people to accept. However, what I personally would love to see is a gay male relationship in the spotlight, where neither party is a stereotype, i.e. where neither of them is expected to play ‘the woman.’ or act flamboyantly. I’d also ideally like them to be human, because I find that other species don’t really ‘count’ to the average person.

Good job Anet on inclusion so far, just another hopeful suggestion from a queer player who is desperate to see gay men in an actual romance, as opposed to portrayed negatively or in a way that’s oriented around sex.

I might make people mad with the next few paragraphs….

I like to see people in relationships and dialogue that feels natural. Kasmeer and Marjory felt mostly realistic and natural (except for all the needless expositon in an earlier living world update. That was just painful to listen to, and not in the sorrowful way). It mostly came out the same integrated way as everyone found out about Taimi, and it all added depth to the story instead of coming off as bad as :::

“well, we gotta be more inclusive, employees of Anet, so we need a cripple and lesbians! Also, in six months we find out Jenna was born a boy but became a she because Queens are liked more than Kings. We also need to make a statement about racism, so there’s also anti-Elonian sentiment going on that players need to help settle down! Why? Because we have items to check off a list, thats why!”

(as far as LGBT characters go, another game company, Gearbox, did a wonderful job when they made Sir Hammerlock, Axton, and other non-heterosexual characters. The characters were awesome and felt like a natural part of the game world. But,…Gearbox (also Bioware and a few other companies) having to feel the need to say the word ‘inclusive’ and how you ‘respect everything’ at all in a press release/blog just comes off as very pompous, and makes me wonder if you really wanted a gay character in your game at all, or if there was a focus group you wanted to appeal to?)

On having a major Gay character in Guild Wars 2? Sure! So long as its not done just for the sake of having a gay character, and it is instead done for the sake of having a great story! There’s no reason to make a big deal out of it (like the forums have been doing), or do it because you have to be ‘inclusive’ or be checking items off a list.

Chrispy.5641:

Okay, lets talk mechanics. You didn’t specify whether or not we could move when using this attack, or if we had to stand still. I’m going to assume we can move, since you specifically said this attack would make us more useful against moving targets, which, doesn’t really work well when you are standing still (if we stand still, what’s the point. I already pointed out how stupid it would be to have 2 stationary skills on one weapon). So…..say I’m up on a wall in WvW, and people are attacking. Well, if I can move, I’m not just going to stand there!

I am first going to target someone attacking the gate/wall. Then I am going to stand back and use all my damage increasing signets before charging the skill, while someone is targeted. Then, when its almost done, I will run up to the edge of the wall, and time my jump just before the skill goes off so the enemy is in my line of sight. Then…. BAM!!!, massive damage spike on someone, who literally didn’t see it coming. Oh look! You never even had the chance to “abuse” me while I still abused the skill to its maximum effect!

The Mechanics of the skill suck, no matter how you put it. Change the idea already!

Linnael.1069:

I think there was a misunderstanding, and I may have forgotten it in my original post, but I’m operating under the assumption that this attack will lock player movement. The fact that it is hitscan will mitigate the loss of effectiveness at maximum range due to strafing, which is what i mean by “will help against moving targets.”

Then the Longbow will have 2 skills that locks the player movement, and people complain about Barrage locking you in place already. 1 Skill? Fine. but having 2 skills that lock you in place, in a game about position and movement is unacceptable.

Atherakhia.4086:

That’s why you drop barrage in favor of it. Barrage is already a terrible skill due to all the negatives and no real reward. But on top of that, it’s counter intuitive to the weapon it’s attached to because it removes you ability to use another weapon skill.

So, since people complain about Barrage locking you in place already (I’m assuming that’s one of the things you mean by negatives), why Add or replace skills with one that does it anyways?

And Barrage isn’t counter intuitive to the weapon its attached to. the change made to Hunter’s Shot is, and is counter intuitive to how the entire profession plays, since it was changed after the fact to give stealth, with zero thought put out there for how that would affect skills already in progress like Barrage, or Traps, or maybe you had Bonfire down somewhere or used Hunter’s call before switching weapons, etc.

Stealth in general doesn’t work on Ranger because of skills like those. the usefulness of Barrage has nothing to do with that. If, skills that were used before you stealthed, didn’t break stealth, and only the skills used after you stealthed broke stealth, I think it would be a good change, that way, no effects are wasted (the stealth or sustain the ranger lays down before going into stealth)

Linnael.1069:

Chrispy.5641:

You’re still talking numbers on a discussion that should be all about mechanics.

In regards to the killshot warrior example, there’s a reason its not dominating the roam scene. Because it sucks kitten . Why don’t people just get two warriors and a thief together and go around selecting targets to die? Because obviously, according to yourself, this type of thing is “easy to avoid”

In regards to the other examples, well, you haven’t responded to them.

All you’re saying is that if you stack up every possible advantage, then in select cases, after you’ve grinded out bonus stats and people have ignored the options to deny your damage you can do alot of damage. Breaking news this is not.

You think you’re going to be “abusing this” somehow? People like me are going to be abusing you up and down the map as you try to rig up your 40k shot.

Oh look, I can make groundless statements about personal skill too.

What I find more concerning is your supposition that somehow the mechanics of this change are worse than current. You honestly think the loss of the fire rate is a significant loss compared to the stealth play, risk/gain considerations, and counterplay? Crit proc sigils are basically going off on-cooldown anyways, and besides thats not even a gameplay consideration. When do you ever not want your on crit sigils activating? When have you ever said “I wonder if I should rapid fire right now” because you were considering your proc rate? A good 90% of the offensive gameplay on the longbow right now is just auto attack or shoot faster for a little bit. I dunno if you consider the pew-pew faster for a while a deep and engaging gameplay option, but it could definitely be more.

Okay, lets talk mechanics. You didn’t specify whether or not we could move when using this attack, or if we had to stand still. I’m going to assume we can move, since you specifically said this attack would make us more useful against moving targets, which, doesn’t really work well when you are standing still (if we stand still, what’s the point. I already pointed out how stupid it would be to have 2 stationary skills on one weapon). So…..say I’m up on a wall in WvW, and people are attacking. Well, if I can move, I’m not just going to stand there!

I am first going to target someone attacking the gate/wall. Then I am going to stand back and use all my damage increasing signets before charging the skill, while someone is targeted. Then, when its almost done, I will run up to the edge of the wall, and time my jump just before the skill goes off so the enemy is in my line of sight. Then…. BAM!!!, massive damage spike on someone, who literally didn’t see it coming. Oh look! You never even had the chance to “abuse” me while I still abused the skill to its maximum effect!

The Mechanics of the skill suck, no matter how you put it. Change the idea already!

Chrispy.5641:

Jocksy.3415:

…

Linnael.1069:

(if you are not using that to max. your damage in WvW, don’t you dare lecture me on inflated PvE numbers Linnael)

Linnael.1069:

Linnael.1069:

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Linnael.1069:

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Forzani.2584:

I think we are basically on the same page in regards to Ranger strength…..that Rangers aren’t terrible, that a few light tweaks is likely all they need. I also agree there are far too many “suggestions” that are obviously over powered.

Still man, take a chill pill. That arrogance is a tad over the top. Many Rangers have done the one shot wonder thing. It’s good for giggles, but not really sustainable. Add to the fact that a strong breeze will kill you is likely the reason more don’t do it. That screen shot is nice damage, but very very highly likely against an up leveled character. So hardly proof to support your thesis

….and once…in north camp… I had a 98k Maul on a rabbit !

That arrogance I think is just the right amount, because it doesn’t matter if its sustainable or not, if its a 1 trick pony or not. The fact remains, no matter what the argument for it is…the potential for it to be exploited and abused is still there, must be considered, and cannot be ignored.

And 98K? Ptfff….

mooty.4560:

Stark.1350:

As the title of the thread says, it’s just my opinion.

While I’m very much looking forward to the big feature patch in April, and as much as I enjoyed the improvement of the living story, it’s been a year and a half now. While some zones have gone through minor changes, they’re relatively still the same zones.

The game needs something new and fresh to look at. I personally feel that the game is getting quite stale at this point. I’d be curious as to what others thoughts are on this. To prevent a lock, please keep it civil.

I agree with you. This game needs new and interesting content in expansion pack format and it needs it sooner rather than later. More over, the basic game play itself might need some new elements or perhaps an overhaul to make it more in-depth. There is a strong possibility that this year’s new MMO releases will bite into GW2’s sales.

Not to go off topic and get into other games, but what new stuff does any new game releasing this year actually bring to the table? Other games are advertising dynamic scaling events, but Guild Wars 2 does that already. Other Games are advertising Dungeons, but Guild Wars 2 does that already. Other games are advertising this and that, and trying everything possible to justify a subscription fee, but Guild Wars 2 does the exact opposite.

I see GW2 sales dropping a little bit, but, after everyone realizes that these ‘new’ games aren’t actually that new at all, GW2 will end up on top again (except for the game on top of the top). Regardless of expansion.

Jocksy.3415:

fyi, without auto-targetting, shooting with no target selected shoots at max range straight in front of the char… no need to target at the end of the world… Useful option when someone is zigzagging to avoid the shots… just shoot in the direction that player will be…
And where did you see it would deal 40k damage? No attack can be that strong, balance-wise… it needs to be higher than AA, but I don’t believe anyone said it should one-shot PVT warriors…
Would never use an attack that could one-shot me if reflected…

I saw that it could potentially deal 40K damage at the point the suggestion said that it deals the same damage as Rapid Fire does now, only all at once.

Linnael.1069:

Replace Rapid Fire with “Power Shot” A charged up shot with the same charge time and total damage at each charge interval as rapid fire, but in one, very fast (instant hit) shot which applies vuln and cripples for 6s if fully charged.

I can get Rapid Fire to deal about 15K damage to almost anything with a full zerker build, with food, and 25 stacks of bloodlust, and as many damage increasing traits as possible (if you are not using that to max. your damage in WvW, don’t you dare lecture me on inflated PvE numbers Linnael)

Maul normally hits for 6-8K on the same build (maxed out again, for those who either don’t do it, or are too cheap to afford the proper food and sigils to do it), with Signet of the Wild and an Attack of Opportunity, it hits for between 11-15K depending on how much Armor the enemy has. That’s almost a 100% increase in damage. (infact, the attached picture shows me doing more than that.)

So, if you want to deal all of Rapid Fire’s damage at once, it deals about 15K (sometimes less if fighting against a heavy armor profession, sometimes it can deal more if you have enemy immobilized and all attacks hit). If you can get that much damage all at once, it can be abused by people like me.

Use a signet of the Wild and an Attack of opportunity, then it will deal upwards of 30K damage. If you add in Air and Fire sigils (which, like I said, it will probably be possible in the feature patch, the devs have stated that they are working on it), which can deal quite a bit of bonus damage (as shown in attached pic, lightning strike from air sigil is dealing 3,100 bonus damage). The damage total can go up to 35K. with full might and vulnerability, the damage could be much higher.

Linnael.1069:

I dunno if you’re aware, but the total power ratio on rapid fire would only exceed kill shot by 0.5 power. Kill shot is a 1.75 second cast with 1500 range baseline and piercing with 1 trait. Do you see thief warrior gank squads stealth sniping people all day? No, because its so easily avoidable, even tho kill shot is even easier to stealth cover.

Actually, I have seen that interaction between thieves and warriors. Its very effective too, when thieves and warriors are actually working together. Still easy to avoid though. Also, Warriors don’t get a 50% damage increase on top of a 25% damage increase. Rangers do, and your failure to take that into account is all too telling.

Linnael.1069:

I’m amenable to numbers changes and such but the core concept, summing up rapid fire, should be considered on a mechanical level. Assuming the devs tune the numbers, all I see coming out of it, even in your posts, is more options, more interesting decisions, more teammate interaction, and all with plenty of counter play for little PvE balance cost.

Less options actually. Rapid Fire is actually useful for Crit Procs because there is alot of them in those 4.5 seconds. If it turns into an all at once damage spike, then those rapid crit procs no longer exist.

Linnael.1069:

And stop using your inflated PvE numbers for WvW objections. Your perfect case dungeon boss numbers aren’t ever going to happen, especially not if you’re opening with it in a gank.

At the attached screenshot shows, numbers are not inflated. Maybe you should take a second to think about what happens to an idea like this in a best-case-scenario, because people like me are going to exploit it, and abuse it, and then Anet is going to nerf it back to what Rapid Fire is now, and then people like you are going to complain about it, starting the cycle all over again.

What we need isn’t a solution that can be so easily abused like I just showed you. What we need is a solution that is both balanced and fair, and doesn’t have the opportunity to be so abused that it takes a nerf, and becomes just as useless (to you) as the original rapid fire is now.

Jocksy.3415:

Chrispy.5641:

Linnael.1069:

Given that rapid fire is a 4.5 second channel and hunters shot gives 3s stealth, the time to respond is more than reasonable. Anybody getting hit by this after a full channel of nearly 5s deserves to eat the associated damage. In PvE, the damage over time is not going to rise by much overall, given the long cooldowns on those supporting skills you use for one shot damage.

I’m thinking you might need to lower total damage by around 10-15 percent to make up for the interaction with attack of opportunity (tho this might be getting nerfed anyways), and lock movement during the charge, but its not nearly as strong as you think.

Single-shot buffs are a tiny fraction of PvE dps, and in WvW/PvP you’re just misleading people by giving them numbers with 25might/vuln, which you won’t be anywhere near even IF you can get anybody to eat more than the 60% charge you’ll be able to get out of stealth.

Keep in mind that no dps change at all would come to PvE besides more efficient attacks of opportunity/remorseless, and that if you want to use this on people with a full charge they have between 1.5 and 4.5 seconds to interrupt/blind/aegis/dodge/just straight up kill you.

Well, except that under the idea, I can take piercing arrows (since its still an arrow) and just aim at someone at the other end of a zerg, and kill anything in a stright line. No one is going to be able to pay attention to the sniping going on at the outer edges because of the chaos going on in the inside. Do they deserve to eat dirt too?

And if you make an exception for piercing arrows, how many more things will you be willing to make an exception on? How big will the list of special rules will the skill have?

Also, Interplay with Thieves or Mesmers can make stealth last much longer, leaving no chance to ever dodge or block it. While more of that interplay is needed in this game, not in the way you are suggesting.

Piercing the whole zerg with a single arrow?
1) LoS (line of sight) is not going to be taken off by the burst ability. Right now, the best cointer to piercing arrows is LoS… Sometimes, a little bump on the ground is cutting LoS… (event with straight shooting (not having an aim, just shooting in the direction the character is facing, I hardly pierce and damage more the 3-4 targets; 2-3 being the average… don’t thing a burst skill would be so different)
2) I doubt that even as burst it would down players unfocused by other players… most burst are at a single point to down/kill players… Just shooting thought will give bags, but nothing more.
3) retaliation?
If LoS wasnt’ a problem, and all pierced targets would be hit, I guess retal would be pretty bad…

All arrows in any bow attack share the same characteristics no matter how many enemies it hits. Its why Point Blank Shot can knock back everything it hits, and its why Concussion Shot can stun/daze everything it hits. Unless an exception is made, this alternate Rapid Fire will deal 40K+ damage to everything it hits, which will down everything. In the Center of Stonemist (flat ground), I can do quite a bit of damage with Piercing arrows because of this. You need to be aiming at someone on the opposite side of the zerg, not whoever is infront of you.

Having a skill on Longbow that requires a 4.5 second charge time, just so we can have a burst option (when our class is not supposed to be about burst) is ridiculous no matter what lame justifications you guys keep trying to make.

arkealia.2713:

Chrispy.5641:

Also, Interplay with Thieves or Mesmers can make stealth last much longer, leaving no chance to ever dodge or block it. While more of that interplay is needed in this game, not in the way you are suggesting.

Warriors with rifle get the same benefit from stealth with their F1 so it shouldn’t be problem.

Killshot is also part of the Warrior’s Class mechanic, and also requires you to be standing still to use, meaning, even while in stealth, it is easy to counter.

If the suggestion wants this new skill to do the same thing, then I am immediately against it, because we already have a skill on longbow that requires us to be standing still. 2 skills on 1 weapon is way too far into overkill territory.

Atherakhia.4086:

1.) Not asking for every weapon to have burst. Just the power ones. GSword isn’t a realistic option for burst because other than maul, it’s a support weapon oriented more for control/defense and not offense. If the class had a Fast Hands trait, you’d have a point. It doesn’t, so you don’t.

2.)We have Barrage as our only real AE. That’s not enough. If you think it is I question how much time you spend actively playing WvW as a non-roamer.

3.) Axe pull is unreliable and no one runs it. GS interupt is too short of a range and misses often. No pet is functional in organized group combat so there goes the rest of your list. SB is an amazing (yet boring) weapon. I too consider immobilize a hard CC, thust he comment at the end of my OP.

4.) Stun breakers aren’t effective in larger settings given the current WvW meta. Perhaps if ANet takes some of the suggestions on the WvW forum into consideration (immunity for 2 seconds after break etc).

5.) Cripple… does anyone care? Anyone? Conditions lasting more than a second in WvW? Really?

6.) Healing Spring is fixed location in a mobile game. It’s a PBAE on a ranged class. Come on dude…

I think I covered your points? If I missed any just bring it back up.

1. Well, Shortbow isn’t getting any burst, neither is axe (unless you count path of scars, but you say its not useful, so you don’t). The sword isn’t getting burst because of the evasive nature of it(unless they remove that). That leaves the Longbow, which probably won’t get a burst option (atleast not the one everyone keeps suggesting) due to reasons I already stated in this thread too many times to count, including a post or two ago. If Longbow should have a burst option, than a ranged version of Maul might be best.

2. Traps, Torches, and Axes. And I spend plenty of time playing WvW, small scale groups and large scale group. I don’t normally do much roaming.

Small Scale, Traps(and Bonfire from torch) are actually great for taking down any profession if smart timing and positioning is used, especially Thieves.

Large Scale, since everyone moves around so much, you can get a large amount of condition damage on a large amount of people. The fire fields are also useful.

If you want AE with a power option…, then no, we don’t really have those, and power-based traps should be added(could work), or some type of steep powerscaling should be applied to traps (which I am against, since it will reduce condition damage potential when balance considerations is taken into account for gear stats like Rampager)

3. Pets are not optimal, but that doesn’t make them useless. Wolfs and Drakehounds work just fine, and have no problem attacking moving enemies, unlike most other pets. They do need to change it to where pets are more useful without having to stack a billion cripples, chills, and immobilizes though.

4. If only….but, if the idea gets used, we won’t hear about it until a week before the patch hits, so people will continue to suggest it, and assume that Anet doesn’t listen.

5. You said we have limited soft CC, and Cripple is a soft CC. Is the problem more with the game design concerning soft cc or is it the profession itself?

6. Which is why I suggested last week that it be classified as a trap, so we can throw it if needed to allies, and make the radius larger. It is unreliable condition removal because there is a very good chance we move outside the radius a second after using, but that doesn’t make the water field useless. Also, Combo fields are kind of immobile to begin with in 99.9% of all cases.

Linnael.1069:

Given that rapid fire is a 4.5 second channel and hunters shot gives 3s stealth, the time to respond is more than reasonable. Anybody getting hit by this after a full channel of nearly 5s deserves to eat the associated damage. In PvE, the damage over time is not going to rise by much overall, given the long cooldowns on those supporting skills you use for one shot damage.

I’m thinking you might need to lower total damage by around 10-15 percent to make up for the interaction with attack of opportunity (tho this might be getting nerfed anyways), and lock movement during the charge, but its not nearly as strong as you think.

Single-shot buffs are a tiny fraction of PvE dps, and in WvW/PvP you’re just misleading people by giving them numbers with 25might/vuln, which you won’t be anywhere near even IF you can get anybody to eat more than the 60% charge you’ll be able to get out of stealth.

Keep in mind that no dps change at all would come to PvE besides more efficient attacks of opportunity/remorseless, and that if you want to use this on people with a full charge they have between 1.5 and 4.5 seconds to interrupt/blind/aegis/dodge/just straight up kill you.

Well, except that under the idea, I can take piercing arrows (since its still an arrow) and just aim at someone at the other end of a zerg, and kill anything in a stright line. No one is going to be able to pay attention to the sniping going on at the outer edges because of the chaos going on in the inside. Do they deserve to eat dirt too?

And if you make an exception for piercing arrows, how many more things will you be willing to make an exception on? How big will the list of special rules will the skill have?

Also, Interplay with Thieves or Mesmers can make stealth last much longer, leaving no chance to ever dodge or block it. While more of that interplay is needed in this game, not in the way you are suggesting.

Vol.7601:

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

Has there been an announcement that the ‘Big Feature’ patch is being released in April? I must have missed it. I would love to see some confirmation. =)

March 18 – Epilogue, Story patch
March 25 – Sub patch, WvW focused
April 1 – SAB
April 14 – ?
April 28 – ?

My speculation.

Expect to wait until at least April 14.

Anet needs to do something cooler for April 1st. Like, the Disruption of the Magical Leylines that Scarlet started causes a distrubance in the Eternal Alchemy, which accidentally sent Commandos into the past.

When the event ends and the Commandos leave, and their weapons are left behind, and we get some awesome Weapon and Armor skins that have that modern look, but the Guild Wars 2 style applied to them.

Linnael.1069:

Game Mode: PvX

Overview:
Replace Rapid Fire with “Power Shot” A charged up shot with the same charge time and total damage at each charge interval as rapid fire, but in one, very fast (instant hit) shot which applies vuln and cripples for 6s if fully charged.

Goals:
Bring interesting, theme fitting gameplay (stealth charging, better interaction with attack of opportunity/opening strike) to PvP/WvW and de-homogenize the damage to improve longbow performance against real players, without unnecessary buffs to PvE damage over time.

Functionality:
Rapid Fire as one charged hitscan arrow allows the ranger to better take advantage of the many traits and buffs that work on one hit (opening strike, moment of clarity) as well as actually use the stealth, opening up a good game play decision (do I sit here and charge or turn and gain distance).

Attaching a cripple or other control to a full charge rewards good choices with more kiting, which longbow sorely needs.

Making the shot hitscan gives the ranger actual functionality at max range against moving people, better filling the need for the long range marksman/sniper archetype currently missing from the ranger.

Associated Risks:
Overbuffing the damage combined with percent damage mods on next strike and autocrit could make this a great skill to snipe unaware light classes with, even if the charge time guarantees that it won’t be functional burst in real combat (see churning earth). Solve by placing an indicator on the ground visible to the target.

I cal already deal a 15k Maul pretty easy if my endurance is full and after using signets. Rapid fire normally deals close to that amount for me through the full channel, without signets. If it is a charge skill like this that deals all that damage at once, Signet of the Hunt, combined with Signet of the Wild, Rapid Fire can easily deal 30K damage. Add in a Sigil of Fire and a Sigil of Air (which might be possible next balance patch according to dev talk), it will deal 35K damage. add in 25 stacks of might and 25 stacks of vulnerability, and it could be dealing a total of 40-45K+ damage. I’m pretty sure that I could bring down veterans in one shot like that except for the obvious ones (like veteran giants).

I do not agree with this idea because I could use Hunter’s Shot to stealth myself, then just use the skill without a problem. Nothing will be able to escape a burst with damage that high. You also don’t even need to worry about vulnerability or cripple when the target is dead.

If you really want to replace Rapid fire with a ‘Burst’ option, then it would make more sense to take a look at Maul, then apply a ranged version of that skill to the Ranger.

yep…I feel like being annoying this morning….

Atherakhia.4086:

The solution to WvW is to make the Ranger a complete class instead of the hobbled mess it is today.

It doesn’t have burst like every other class.

And we don’t need all of our weapons to have burst like every other class. If you want to burst, use greatsword.

Atherakhia.4086:

It doesn’t have AE like every other class.

Define this please, because I think our AE is fine for what it can do.

Atherakhia.4086:

It has no real access to hard CC like every other class.

We have a pull on Axe #4.
We have a Knockback, and a stun/daze on Greatsword #4 and #5.
We have a Knockback on Longbow #4
We have a Stun/Daze on Shortbow
We also have Canines and Pigs, both of which can Knockdown.
We also have the Wolf which can Fear
I would consider Immobilize a Hard CC as well because it stops enemy movement, and we have plenty of access to that

So what real access to Hard CC are you saying we don’t have access to?

Atherakhia.4086:

It can’t counter hard CC without an elite, and self only.

I would consider stun breakers a counter to hard CC. We have four, which is a little less than other professions have, but it is because of the nature of our utility skills (spirits….).
I would also consider evades a counter to just about anything including hard CC when timed right, and we have just as many evades as the Thief has access to.

Atherakhia.4086:

It’s soft CC is quite limited.

uh….sure?
We have more access to cripple than any other profession.
We also have more access to chill than any other profession except for Elementalists and Necromancers who should have more access to chill, by the very definition of what those two classes are.

Atherakhia.4086:

Almost all non-traited utility is on a dead pet.
Almost all traited utility is on dead spirits.

Huh?

Atherakhia.4086:

An inferior water field and a couple forms of immobilize is about all this class realistically offers and neither of these amount to anything in organized group settings.

Healing Spring’s water field has a 30% uptime, lasts 10 seconds, and removes conditions from allies. Please inform me what water field is superior to that? Or do you mean that silly little Healing Seed that Pigs can find for you?

yes, I do think rangers are in a bad spot, but nowhere near as bad as the borderline drama your post makes it out to be.

A couple of devs (somewhere between 6-8 of them) showed up late monday morning to play some WvW with my server. I am not going to name names or server, since that never ends well.

They also knew their stuff because we were able to go againt an uncoordinated zerg larger than us several times, and there is no way we would have won if 40% of our group didn’t know what they were doing.

There was a warrior or two, an engineer, a necromancer, a mesmer or two. I’m pretty sure I also saw a Ranger.

By your half insulting logic, I sure hope Anet doesn’t introduce any more normal conditions or boons. Newcomers might become confused while playing a very complex MMO they are picking up for the very first time ever, because that totally doesn’t happen to someone who tries something new!

Aidenwolf.5964:

Xaylin.1860:

Akisame.9508:

I am not sure if I understood you right, but all classes, with the exception of ranger’s from what I have understood from the dev’s, all classes start with 100% damage. I have not read any post’s or heard any statements from dev’s stating that mesmer’s damage is reduced because they expect clones to fill a portion of that damage. Or necro’s damage is reduced because they expect minions to fill a portion of that damage.

Look at the baseline weapon damage of Mesmers and then tell me that there is no damage re-allocation to Phantasms or no consideration of Shatters. Without Phantasms or Shatters a Mesmer deals lousy damage.

Of course, this does not apply to a Necromancer since Minions are not the class mechanic. But Phantasms sort of are. Also, assuming that Burst skills of Warriors go ontop of the weapon damage is silly regardles what a Dev said in the past and how people might interpret it. Not using your Burst skills on a Warrior will always make you less effective.

Rangers might have a bigger chunk of damage linked to their class mechanic than others and they indeed lack control. But they are not the only class where damage is integrated into their class mechanic. That is why I personally reject suggestions which go ‘Warriors got 100% damage + Burst skills, Rangers should get 100% damage + Pet’ because it is based on inaccurate assumptions. It is very naive to assume that other damaging class mechanics are not considered when balancing a class.

That being said, I’d rather go on discussing proposals regarding weapon changes or utilities instead of getting stuck on the class mechanic and how people interpret a statement which is not even backed up by numbers.

Akisame.9508:

Speaking of which, why is it that necro’s with all of their minions don’t have balancing issues when they can spec to not use minions and not lose DPS? What’s the difference between them and us if they also have pets and theirs is optional?

Again, it is not their class mechanic. They also lose a lot of utility when going MM.

Where to start. OK, I have a mesmer alt and your phantasm comparison to ranger pets is offensive. Yes mesmers get most of their burst from phantasms and shatters, but your sustained ranged DPS is way higher than a ranger’s, and if your phantasms die, they can cause AOE damage and are brought right back up in seconds. When a ranger’s pets die, no AOE and we can’t spam a replacement. Not to mention your phantasms can be summoned and locked onto enemies our pets cannot get to.

So in closing, an Apple may be a fruit and so is an Orange, but you cannot make Apple Pie with Lemons.

Yeah….uh, I have never been killed by a Mesmer’s ‘sustained ranged DPS’. I have however, been taken out many times by other Rangers using the Barrage/Rapid fire combo, which does way more damage than you give it credit for.

In closing, (insert metaphor here)
….
(nah, I’ll say one anyways!) all professions are Apples. Some are just more sour than others.

How is it confusing? If you’re group reaches 25 stacks of bleeding, and a more powerful version of bleeding gets applied. You don’t even need to get confused or overwhelmed by that fact beyond “Bonus damage! Yay! I can apply more bleeds now instead of scratching my head wondering why I’m not seeing any of my bleeds dealing damage!”

Idea for Condition Damage
- Ensures that damage overtime stays damage over time. (seriously, you really want me to deal a 10,000 damage all at once burst with Throw torch to someone? I’m not even going to mention the bleeds that many profession have access to in a conditoon build!)
- Doesn’t mess with crit procs, which is an essential part to many condition builds (and would just be stupid to remove that without also just getting rid of precision and just applying critical damage to power by default)

For Bleeding

• Let it stack like Normal on Veteran and below enemies, but on Elite, Champion, etc…..once it reaches 25 stacks, All 25 stacks are removed, and a new condition is applied called Deep Wound
• Deep Wound does a flat 2500 damage per second for 5 seconds, equalling 12500 damage. No calculations necessary in order to reduce server load, and the damage tick should show for everyone who contributed a stack of bleeding, though no one gets credit for that damage in their combat log.
• Deep Wound itself can stack 25 times(which is crazy if you can wrap your head around stacking 625 bleeds, even in a large zerg.)
• While a single stack of Deep wound wont deal as much damage as a bleed stacking profession, I think it is fair, because it allows more bleeds to be stacked, which is sorely needed.

For Burning and Poison

• Stacks normally on Veteran and below. Stacks in duration like normal.
• On Elites and Above, after 5 stacks of Burning Duration is applied (or whatever the maximum is), a new condition Searing is applied. For Poison, a new condition Venom is applied.
• Deals a flat 500 damage per second for both, and duration lasts until the respective weaker condition is removed or expires all its stacks in duration.
• Each additional stack of Burning and Poison increase the damage of their respective upleveled conditions by 1% up to a maximum of 1000% (max of 5500 additional damage per second). No calculations necessary in order to reduce server load (except for when the stronger condition gets additional stacks added on, and when the weaker condition ends, but since the damage flatly increases, there should be no additonal calculations, besides adding 5 damage each time anew stack of burning or poison is applied), and the damage tick should show for everyone who contributed a stack of burning or poison, though no one gets credit for that damage in their combat log.

Confusion

• If 25 stacks of Confusion are applied to Veterans and Above, then, like Bleeding, a new condition called Mind Shatter is applied.
• Mind Shatter deals a constant 2500 damage whenever enemy attacks for 5 seconds. No calculations necessary in order to reduce server load, and the damage tick should show for everyone who contributed a stack of confusion, though no one gets credit for that damage in their combat log.
• Mind shatter itself can stack 25 times, though its unlikely that even the largest of zergs can apply 625 stacks of confusion.
• Like Deep wound, it wont deal as much damage as 25 stacks of confusion, but it opens up the ability to deal more damage because more stacks of confusion can be applied.

Torment

• Same as Bleeding in every way. New stronger condition named Agony (why not?)
• Like Deep Wound, deals less damage than 25 stacks of torment (lets say 2000 per second, 4000 when moving), but gives the chance to apply more stacks. No calculations are really necessary like what would be needed to track 625 seperate stacks of the condition.

Improvised Survival (PvE, WvW)

• New Trait in Wilderness Survival
• Improves our Condition removal beyond the limited options we have now that (beyond a single heal skill), forces us to rely on pets or spirits.

Functionality

• Improvised Survival (original idea) – Whenever you use a utility skill, remove a condition from you and your pet for each utility skill not yet used. (no internal cooldown, maybe Master Tier?)

• Improvised Survival (alternate idea) -Whenever you use a utility skill, remove a condition from you and your pet. (7-10 second cooldown. maybe Adept Tier?)

• Affects the use of all Utility Skills. Traps, Survival, Shouts, Spirit Summons, Signet Actives, Spirit actives(alternate only), etc.. Gives us effective (and active) self condition removal.
• Spirit actives are for the Alternate idea only, otherwise, there would be too much easy access to multiple condition removals that are basically free, because the original idea doesnt have a cooldown.
• The Original idea encourages smart use of Utility Skills instead of spamming them all at once, because if you stagger the use of them, there is more chances you get to remove more than one condition at a time, instead of just one,…or none.

Risks/Rewards and Balance issues

• Hey, maybe there is a reason why Rangers are supposed to be so good at sustain, but can’t sustain condition removal.
• High initial condition removal, but, If all your utility skills are on cooldown, this trait won’t work on you. There are downsides to having this trait if you can’t time and stagger your use of utility skills.
• Some utility skills have rather low cooldowns (traps), and the ability to remove more conditions would be a little skewed intowards those skills. To make effective use of traps and be on a competing level with other condition spec professions requires giving up survival skills in order to use though, so it may balance out.

Discussion

• Its about the simplest solution I can think of to our problems with removing conditions.

Iason Evan.3806:

Thanks for all the hard work Allie! My biggest concern outside the pet situation is the traits. I will give a few examples. Traps are in the Precision/Crit line. Problem? They do condition damage. Traps should be in the trait line that affects condition damage.

Shortbow traits are in Marksmanship and Skirmishing. Problem? The Shortbow deals condition damage. Shortbows should be in the trait line that affects condition damage.

Some spirit effects increase with condition damage, but are in Nature Magic. Problem? They do condition damage. Spirits should be in the trait line that affects condition damage.

Ranger Skills deal condition damage. Problem? They do condition damage. All Ranger traits should be in the trait line that affects condition damage.

Frost Trap doesn’t Deal condition damage. Problem? Its only affected by Condition Duration. All Traps should be in Marksmanship, because traps belong in a trait line that affects condition duration.

Aidenwolf.5964:

Chrispy.5641:

(there’s been about a dozen other trap related posts since then, but it would take up too much space to quote them all)

I have news for you. The Ranger is a contender when it comes to condition builds, even next to Necromancer and Engineer because of how fast we can stack conditions. Just because we don’t deal bonus condition damage, or have a trait that gives us bonus condition damage does not mean that we suck at conditions. And we can definitely stack bleeds faster than Warriors. Just because of your refusal to accept the synergy between Traps and Sharpened Edges does not mean we automatically suck at conditions.

Here’s my trap build :::http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vMEQRAnf3XjMqUuaHLerw1agYpQQ7vpITmn9wQO6RlcnoA-zECBYhDimWAgqI0k0Q5QFRjtaqIasqbY6YER1BAQA2ZdWnBYn7co7coJFAMLrA-w

It is my most used build, and I use it in PvE and WvW, and it is equally effective against all professions, and it is my 2nd highest dps build because I can hit multiple targets at once with almost all of my attacks, unlike, just about everything else the Ranger has.

So no, I won;t ‘settle down’, and yes, I am a little touchy when people try to suggest changes to traps, but fail to explain why beyond “Uh….it deals condition damage, so, it should be in wilderness survival…right?” (why do you want to move damage to a trait line that almost entirely focused on defense and force us to choose between one or the other?) or “It should deal more physical damage,…because, uh, BURST!” (which it shouldn’t because all skills have a maximum dps to consider when balancing. If traps dealt more physical damage, then the conditions would have to be nerfed because of gear stats like Rampager.) You should consider what Crit Chance and Sharpened Edges does for Traps before you go off blindly making suggestions to change it.

I run something very similar as my wvw roaming build but with sword as my off set MH for mobility and minor changes to healing as I run apothecary. I’m not a proponent of moving the traps to another line but if they increase the size of traps, I’ll be very happy.

I actually try to avoid mobility in that build, only dodgind occasionally. While it seems counter to how guild wars 2 plays, traps have only a barrage sized area of effect, and if I move around too much while fighting enemies, there’s a very good possibility that enemies might step outside the trap area, and would no longer get conditions stacked on them.

Also @everyone reading my posts, don’t get too angry at my posts for being the lone wolf pushing back against almost all of the proposed trap changes. Its just that it is one of my most used builds (probably most used), it is very effective, and I really don’t see why Rabid/Rampager/other crit gear has to essentially be less optimized and take a nerf to traps, just so other builds (anything without crit and condition damage) can be optimized for traps. It doesn’t make sense to nerf one only to buff the other. (I still think that moving traps to Wilderness Survival is a nerf to Ranger survival in general, because if you run any trap at all, you now have to choose between survival traits and traps, or conflicting traits like off-hand training.)

Vox Hollow.2736:

Goal of Proposal
Traps are a bit on the ‘spammy’ side. In practice they play more like using grenades than actual traps. They could stand to place more emphasis on pre-emptive and positional ‘luring’ gameplay. The line also has a few odd outliers that could stand to be brought in line.

You can already do this very sucessfully. Because of the low cooldown of traps, you can lay down a bunch of them, then the moment an enemy triggers one, you can lay down several more. the Pre-emptive aspect is already there.

Atherakhia.4086:

Chrispy.5641:

SkiTz.4590:

Ranger is a single target DPS class, that is the unfortunate truth and would take a lot of change to make it viable in terms of doing AOE damage like eles or necros.

I’ll give you the fact that they can’t spread them to other targets (again, this class is pretty much designed only for 1v1s). Traps aren’t big enough to be considered AOE. But rangers can apply/stack them pretty quickly…maybe not stack as high as a necro but who can? My ranger builds can reapply condis pretty much at will (poison,bleeds and burns that is) yea would be nice to have access to torment or confusion

Still, the build variety would be much better if anet could actually add something to make viable power builds for our class, but there is no such thing right now outside of the joke of a swop + bash + maul combat, which any idiot can see coming. and effectively dodge/block out of it

How big do traps need to be to be considered Aoe? Traps have an effective radius of 240 when traited, which is the same size as Barrage. Is Barrage not considered Aoe to you or something? How big does it have to be to be considered Aoe?

And what about Bonfire? Whirling Defense? drakes? What the heck else do you need to be able to do Aoe? (oh, let me guess, blast finisher like Thief shortbow….)

(oh, and necromancer marks are the same size as traps until you trait them to be bigger as well)

Take it in context. We were talking about AE application of condis between classes. Are you implying Ranger is even a contender when placed next to Engineers and Necros? Cause I have news for you… it’s not. It’s about on par with Warriors but can’t stack bleed to eleventybillion in .5 seconds every 5 seconds like a Warrior can.

Settle down…

(there’s been about a dozen other trap related posts since then, but it would take up too much space to quote them all)

I have news for you. The Ranger is a contender when it comes to condition builds, even next to Necromancer and Engineer because of how fast we can stack conditions. Just because we don’t deal bonus condition damage, or have a trait that gives us bonus condition damage does not mean that we suck at conditions. And we can definitely stack bleeds faster than Warriors. Just because of your refusal to accept the synergy between Traps and Sharpened Edges does not mean we automatically suck at conditions.

Here’s my trap build :::http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vMEQRAnf3XjMqUuaHLerw1agYpQQ7vpITmn9wQO6RlcnoA-zECBYhDimWAgqI0k0Q5QFRjtaqIasqbY6YER1BAQA2ZdWnBYn7co7coJFAMLrA-w

It is my most used build, and I use it in PvE and WvW, and it is equally effective against all professions, and it is my 2nd highest dps build because I can hit multiple targets at once with almost all of my attacks, unlike, just about everything else the Ranger has.

So no, I won;t ‘settle down’, and yes, I am a little touchy when people try to suggest changes to traps, but fail to explain why beyond “Uh….it deals condition damage, so, it should be in wilderness survival…right?” (why do you want to move damage to a trait line that almost entirely focused on defense and force us to choose between one or the other?) or “It should deal more physical damage,…because, uh, BURST!” (which it shouldn’t because all skills have a maximum dps to consider when balancing. If traps dealt more physical damage, then the conditions would have to be nerfed because of gear stats like Rampager.) You should consider what Crit Chance and Sharpened Edges does for Traps before you go off blindly making suggestions to change it.

oiseau.6481:

Chrispy.5641:

How big do traps need to be to be considered Aoe? Traps have an effective radius of 240 when traited, which is the same size as Barrage. Is Barrage not considered Aoe to you or something? How big does it have to be to be considered Aoe?

And what about Bonfire? Whirling Defense? drakes? What the heck else do you need to be able to do Aoe? (oh, let me guess, blast finisher like Thief shortbow….)

Traps sucks on power builds, Whirling Defense makes low damage, and barrage has a huge CD.

Fact is our mele weapons at the start deals less damage because they are seemed to work with the pet (70%-30% rule).
However most pets are single targets making us bad when not out of the zerg in WvW.
The main problem here is not the size, but the damage itself.

30% of our DPS is single target only when it ever hits.

Is it possible that traps suck on power builds because they are so good on condition builds? I hear people complaining all the time that our weapons need some sort of defined focus, why not our utilities?

Edit : If you want physical damage focuses utilities, then ask Anet for them, but don’t complain about traps not dealing enough non-conditon dps, when they are doing exactly what they were designed for.

Solandri.9640:

Also, Guardian GS autoattack deals 2333 dps with the same power and weapon strength calculations as I used above. Warrior’s does 1916 dps. Mesmer’s does 2363 when at maximum range, meaning, guardian definitely wins.

Well, a guardian, warrior, or mesmer who does nothing but autoattack is barely tapping the potential DPS of their greatsword.

And, a Ranger isn’t…why?

SkiTz.4590:

Ranger is a single target DPS class, that is the unfortunate truth and would take a lot of change to make it viable in terms of doing AOE damage like eles or necros.

I’ll give you the fact that they can’t spread them to other targets (again, this class is pretty much designed only for 1v1s). Traps aren’t big enough to be considered AOE. But rangers can apply/stack them pretty quickly…maybe not stack as high as a necro but who can? My ranger builds can reapply condis pretty much at will (poison,bleeds and burns that is) yea would be nice to have access to torment or confusion

Still, the build variety would be much better if anet could actually add something to make viable power builds for our class, but there is no such thing right now outside of the joke of a swop + bash + maul combat, which any idiot can see coming. and effectively dodge/block out of it

How big do traps need to be to be considered Aoe? Traps have an effective radius of 240 when traited, which is the same size as Barrage. Is Barrage not considered Aoe to you or something? How big does it have to be to be considered Aoe?

And what about Bonfire? Whirling Defense? drakes? What the heck else do you need to be able to do Aoe? (oh, let me guess, blast finisher like Thief shortbow….)

(oh, and necromancer marks are the same size as traps until you trait them to be bigger as well)

I just got done with a session in WvW using a Rabid-Trap build. I would run out ahead of the zerg, and lay down all my traps, as well as bonfire, and (depending on what I had equiped in my other weapon set before the fight), switch to axe to use whirling defense, or switch to Warhorn and use call of the wild. Every enemy guard/player that was near me had 10-14 stacks of bleeding, and a substantial amount of burning and poison on them before the rest of the zerg ever got to them. Where would you not consider traps to be aoe exactly?

TurtleDragon.3108:

Chrispy.5641:

……
Sword’s Auttoatack is higher (about 20% higher infact), but the Greatsword’s damage is in its burst, (not just through Maul, but through its other burst skill : Counterattack), because once you start calculating things like critical damage, and damage bonuses from signets, Maul and Counterattack will start to deal greater and greater damage, and will eventually out damage the sword in those type of builds.

I’m going to call bullkitten on that. There is no way that is true, since Sword already outscales GS by a fair bit. (24.5% in my numbers). Critical Damage and Signets will also affect Sword the same way it affects GS.

That argument is like saying “Well, if I put a force sigil on GS but not sword it’ll start to close the gap between them”

(I said “ABOUT” 20%, the actual percentage is closer to 25~6%)

I’m going to call bull kitten on the rest of your statement. Let me know when the Sword auto attack hits for 15-20K+ damage, alright? There are plently of posts in these forums showing that Maul (and counterattack to a lesser extent) can deal that much damage)

Sarision.6347:

Chrispy, you might want to recalculate because the autoattack animation is 1.8 seconds for sword and 2.56 for GS according to the wiki.

What I used as a basis for my calculations was just the time it takes to complete the attack chain, by using the activation times of each skill.

also, on the wiki, those edits were put in place in the wiki by players, not Anet, most likely by hitting a golem in the mists while having a stop watch,…which is not that ccurate. If the numers were pulled straight from the game files, I might be inclined to believe them. There is absolutely no basis for the times for any auto attack chain on the wiki.

If you guys want to disagree, then post your own freaking numbers. Don’t just give me “well, its 24.5% according to my numbers!” (That you refuse to post!)

……

From 4 months age :::

Chrispy.5641:

Uh….Lets use some math, so everyone can understand why the Sword does more damage.

(all damage numbers, activation times, and Cooldown taken from wiki)

Sword
Slash : 202 (1/2 sec)
Kick : 202 (1/4 sec) and a cripple
Pounce : 235 (3/4 sec) and might for pet

202 + 202 + 235 = 639 / 1.5 seconds = 426 DPS Gives might to your pet. Also a cripple

Hornet’s Sting : 235 (1/2 sec)
Monarch’s Leap : 336 (3/4 sec) and a cripple
also an 8 second recharge

235 + 336 = 571 / 9.25 seconds = 62 DPS

Serpent’s Sting : 235 (1 second) + 504 poison
Also a 15 second recharge
235 + 504 = 739 / 16 seconds = 46 DPS

Greatsword
Slash : 203 (1/2 sec)
Slice : 203 (1/2 sec)
Power Stab : 240 (3/4 sec)

203 + 203 + 240 = 646 / 1.75 seconds = 369 DPS Plus 1 second Evade

Maul : 434 (3/4 sec)
also a 6 second recharge

434 / 6.75 seconds = 64 DPS

Swoop : 327 (1 3/4 sec)
also a 12 second recharge

327 / 13.75 seconds = 24 DPS

First off, Autoattack is King when it comes to DPS, forget the other skills. Second, The Sword does more DPS, especially after you add in basic pet DPS for both, then add in the Might you can give your pet from the Sword’s auto attack. You pet also gains might for each enemy you hit on Pounce (up to three stacks each time). After you add the damage from the Torch or Warhorn, the Sword’s total damage will end up far outdoing the Greatsword.

Some other things to consider…..

- This is Base Damage, and at the time, I wasn’t considering powerscaling in the calculations (which I should have…). So, lets see which weapon does more damage at 2500 power, which is a common power level for many ranger players…..(also an exotic weapon with an average of 1000 weapon strength, and fighting an enemy with 2000 armor)

Sword
+Slash+_(0.6 coefficient)_ : 750 (1/2 sec)
+Kick+_(0.6c)_ : 750 (1/4 sec) and a cripple
+Pounce+_(0.7c)_ : 875 (3/4 sec) and might for pet

750 + 750 + 875 = 2375 / 1.5 seconds = 1583 DPS Gives might to your pet. Also a cripple

Hornet’s Sting(0.7c) : 875 (1/2 sec)
Monarch’s Leap(1.0c) : 1250 (3/4 sec) and a cripple
also an 8 second recharge

875 + 1250 = 2125 / 9.25 seconds = 230 DPS

Serpent’s Sting(0.7c) : 875 (1 second) + 504 poison
Also a 15 second recharge
875 + 504 = 1379 / 16 seconds = 86 DPS

Greatsword
Slash (0.55c) : 688 (1/2 sec)
Slice (.55c) : 688 (1/2 sec)
Power Stab(0.65c) : 812(3/4 sec)

688 + 688 + 812 = 2188 / 1.75 seconds = 1250 DPS Plus 1 second Evade

Maul : 1875 (3/4 sec)
also a 6 second recharge

1875 / 6.75 seconds = 278 DPS

Swoop : 1250 (1 3/4 sec)
also a 12 second recharge

1250 / 13.75 seconds = 91 DPS

Sword’s Auttoatack is higher (about 20% higher infact), but the Greatsword’s damage is in its burst, (not just through Maul, but through its other burst skill : Counterattack), because once you start calculating things like critical damage, and damage bonuses from signets, Maul and Counterattack will start to deal greater and greater damage, and will eventually out damage the sword in those type of builds.

The argument can’t go much farther than that, because these two weapons serve two entirely different purposes. The greatsword is going to take a DPS loss because of the 1 second evade. Try to keep that in your calculations as well.

TL;DR : Greatsword does not need a damage increase, its fine the way it is.

Also, Guardian GS autoattack deals 2333 dps with the same power and weapon strength calculations as I used above. Warrior’s does 1916 dps. Mesmer’s does 2363 when at maximum range, meaning, guardian definitely wins.

Shockwave.1230:

Is it me or does the OP message sound like "I don’t like being a special snowflake, I want to be an unrecognized cog in the machine! "

That’s the undertone I’m picking up. Not that it’s necessarily bad, but in a video game where the story is interactive with the player I feel it is.

When I want a story that doesn’t give me credit I’ll watch a show, a movie, or read a story. I’m not taking part in those stories so I shouldn’t get any credit.

Watch out! You’ll get called out for being narcissistic and having self-esteem issues by various members of the community if you keep that attitude!

Then again, to be fair, These people can keep saying that they would rather be an unrecognized cog in a machine, but my experience working on passenger jets tells me that it doesn’t matter how big or small the ‘cog’ is. Every part is numbered and identified (even individual rivets and screws are numbered by section and location), and every part serves the equally important task of keeping the hundreds of passengers and crew aboard the plane alive.

Dozens of mechanics toil day after day, week after week, servicing parts that still have a long life ahead of them, cleaning them, and changing out parts that valiantly reach the end of their service life, to be replaced and retired to the recycling bin, to start life again a few months later as a new part to the plane, no more or less important than the part you started as. Not even hollywood gets the attention that mechanics put into a single part on a plane whose job is to keep people alive and in a safe enviroment.

So guess what? People might not like to say it (especially people in the Lore Forums), You’re still unique and a hero that will get the proper recognition and love, pretty much no matter what!

I’ll use Cleric gear and a healing power build when in zergs in WvW. The Power (and investment into beastmastery) ensures I do enough damage to still get all my bags. but since my healing power gets up to around 1900, I can get a pretty awesome level of healing (for me and allies) going on when using the right combination of runes and sigils with my skills. Its also about the only time that Nature’s Wrath is actually a useful trait, since it gives 190 bonus power when my healing power is as high as it is. Because of how Signet of the Wild scales with healing power, you can get over 600 hp per second of healing on your pet, passive. Makes a big difference in keeping it alive just long enough that it counts. I just wish that some of our heals would benefit from the healing power, such as natural healing, some of water spirit’s effects, and the spirit of nature.

Berk.8561:

I did some sample builds in a build editor and to really do the trap build right, I’d also have to drain the Marksmanship trait line, since it doesn’t add to Condition damage at all, which reduces Power and eliminates all of the traits that would make a bow worthwhile to use. It would be nice if the Trap traits actually added to Condition Damage instead of Precision (useless with traps) and Critical Damage (also useless with traps). If the trap traits were in the Wilderness Survival line that added Condition Damage (which actually goes with traps) and Toughness, I would work much better and I wouldn’t have to sacrifice every bow trait to optimize the trap part of the build, just Quick Draw.

There’s where you have to make decisions if you want a trap build. While Marksmanship seems useless for a trap build at first, the Condition Duration most certainly isn’t useless, especially to extend the duration of poison past 10 seconds, per pulse with vipers nest! Or maybe you take the no damage frost trap instead, and pretty much Perma-chill anyone who crosses your path if you are also carrying an axe.

And using Precision with Trap Builds is quite awesome too, not for increasing the damage you do with burning, bleeding, and poison, but it does increase your chances to fire off more bleeding if you use Sharpended Edges and have an Earth Sigil, which indirectly increases the damage you deal. Just using traps (no weapons), I can very easily get over 1000 dps, just by using the low damage pulses of flame trap and viper’s nest. Then lets throw down the spike trap and Axe #2….you ain’t living much longer if you didn’t bring condition removal! The condition stacking is the reason (to me) why traps are good the way they are in Skirmishing, even though there is no condition damage, or condition duration in that trait line. I don’t know why people keep saying that Precision and Skirmishing doesn’t help traps at all, because it certainly does! (if changes are made, I would reccomend that Critical damage goes to marksmanship, and condition duration goes to skirmishing, since Marksmanship is all about damage anyways)

And your problem is still that you want to have a build that optimizes both bows and traps, or some other skill. You don’t need Quickdraw to do that. Don’t forget that on my build, you can proc bleed two times for every attack you do (through a trait and sigil). One barrage can potentially stack on 120 bleeds between 5 enemies if my crit chance is high enough (24 each!), and using skills like muddy terrain, spike trap, and spiders, ensures that you can get as many of those bleeds stacked on as possible. Your bow is still optimized for damage, but in a totally different way. The trait doesn’t need to specifically reference bows to affect them.