Guild Wars 2

ok calculated max backstab for 2 builds, both numbers include absolute max pvp buffs, banners, 25 might, 25 vuln, scholar runes, sigil of force, assassins signet (15% bonus), berserkers amulet, 25 stacks of bloodlust

25/5/0/25/10 (max possible +damage %’s) = 37547.9025

25/30/0/0/15 (max possible +damage %’s) = 46747.25709307

if anyone else can think of a buff that i missed please mention it

edit: went over it with my guild we cant think of any possible buffs missed so 62.5k was a lie unless you can prove me wrong with a video

Travlane.5948:

Clumsy.6257:

Travlane.5948:

Clumsy.6257:

Travlane.5948:

Karolis.4261:

Travlane.5948:

Hawkeye.9687:

Travlane.5948:

62.5k backstab here on a lvl 80 warrior. (perfect conditions)

none of these builds are max dmg 0_o not even close.

Travlane your are a crazy and very experienced thief .I believe this number is possible with carrion gear 25/x/x/25/x sigil of inteligence p/d ,d/d stack power ,food power !? .You make me wonder ……

dont wonder. i dont lie. its capable. build has no defense but none of these other posts are even close to a max dmg build.

Wow this is new heights of skill right here. 62.5 k backstabs with carrion gear and 0 in crit strikes. Wow, just wow.

where did i say i had carrion gear? obv its zerk

62.5k isnt possible with that build even with absolute max buffs

yes it is. and i did it. it takes absolute perfect conditions. i bet i could reach 70k with a lil more controlled experiment but yeah it is. not gonna lie the warrior was naked….but still 62k. try replicate it. i think it was like 61.5k or something but still almost 62k

edit: miscalculated ill post back once i get home to test actual maxes

or just try it out? thats why i did. :P

“just trying it out” wont necessarily provide the absolute highest backstab while calculations will

what mob out of all dungeons has the lowest armor?

Travlane.5948:

Clumsy.6257:

Travlane.5948:

Karolis.4261:

Travlane.5948:

Hawkeye.9687:

Travlane.5948:

62.5k backstab here on a lvl 80 warrior. (perfect conditions)

none of these builds are max dmg 0_o not even close.

Travlane your are a crazy and very experienced thief .I believe this number is possible with carrion gear 25/x/x/25/x sigil of inteligence p/d ,d/d stack power ,food power !? .You make me wonder ……

dont wonder. i dont lie. its capable. build has no defense but none of these other posts are even close to a max dmg build.

Wow this is new heights of skill right here. 62.5 k backstabs with carrion gear and 0 in crit strikes. Wow, just wow.

where did i say i had carrion gear? obv its zerk

62.5k isnt possible with that build even with absolute max buffs

yes it is. and i did it. it takes absolute perfect conditions. i bet i could reach 70k with a lil more controlled experiment but yeah it is. not gonna lie the warrior was naked….but still 62k. try replicate it. i think it was like 61.5k or something but still almost 62k

edit: miscalculated ill post back once i get home to test actual maxes

Travlane.5948:

Karolis.4261:

Travlane.5948:

Hawkeye.9687:

Travlane.5948:

62.5k backstab here on a lvl 80 warrior. (perfect conditions)

none of these builds are max dmg 0_o not even close.

Travlane your are a crazy and very experienced thief .I believe this number is possible with carrion gear 25/x/x/25/x sigil of inteligence p/d ,d/d stack power ,food power !? .You make me wonder ……

dont wonder. i dont lie. its capable. build has no defense but none of these other posts are even close to a max dmg build.

Wow this is new heights of skill right here. 62.5 k backstabs with carrion gear and 0 in crit strikes. Wow, just wow.

where did i say i had carrion gear? obv its zerk

62.5k isnt possible with that build even with absolute max buffs

smackphat.2917:

Cuteypie.7835:

25/30/0/0/15

15 chars

Zerk scholar obvious +DMg traits

Will that be the meta after the 10th?

all the dec 10 update is doing is reducing the amount of meta builds with 25/30/0/0/15 being the last man standing
25/30/10/0/5 – used to be more effecting than //15 in fights that last longer than 18 seconds but with increased passive initiative regen that extra initiative from backstab should make less of a difference (haven’t calculated how much of a difference)

Dee Jay.2460:

Clumsy.6257:

Arganthium.5638:

1200 range is necessary in all game modes if only because it helps you do what flanking is meant to do: get you away from melee enemies while still dealing some degree of damage, and possibly causing your enemy to overextend or flee.

1200 range is very unnecessary in pve, im all for forcing everyone to have a max of 600 range in pve

Run all fractals @ level 40 without using ranged weapons and color me impressed.

Until then ranged weapons are a mandatory element of PvE many encounters.

You can argue about what’s necessary and what’s not since most of the stuff in this game is either easy or doesn’t punish you for failure.

But still a Thief loses quite a bit of his DPS due to his 900 range limitation. And I just don’t see any justification for it.

theres absolutely no excuse for not meleeing below 50, ive been as high as 64 and the only boss in fractals i range is legendary grawl shaman  
edit: that was b4 fractal change

Arganthium.5638:

Clumsy.6257:

Arganthium.5638:

1200 range is necessary in all game modes if only because it helps you do what flanking is meant to do: get you away from melee enemies while still dealing some degree of damage, and possibly causing your enemy to overextend or flee.

1200 range is very unnecessary in pve, im all for forcing everyone to have a max of 600 range in pve

Some bosses are almost impossible to melee because their melee attacks allow them to 1-shot you often.

thats why the dodge button was invented or why a guardian spams aegis and even adding that in, its still more efficient to melee every boss in the game

Arganthium.5638:

1200 range is necessary in all game modes if only because it helps you do what flanking is meant to do: get you away from melee enemies while still dealing some degree of damage, and possibly causing your enemy to overextend or flee.

1200 range is very unnecessary in pve, im all for forcing everyone to have a max of 600 range in pve

its still available, and useable vs cosmetic? its always been like that, you get ascended and infused backpiece for 2350 relics and 250 ectos or a glowing backpiece that you use to assert your superiority for 2850 relics and 500 ectos

now im completely in agreement that 900 range in pvp/wvw is unacceptable but why would we need 1200 range for pve? there isnt a single boss that requires 1200, in fact normally its much more effective and efficient if your within 500-600 range and you specifically mentioned new fractal encounters, ive done the berserker/firestorm and mai trin but not the 3rd and both berserker/firestorm and mai trin both benefit from medium range and at least mai trin is made infinitely harder if you try to stand outside 700 range (rough guesstimate probably between 600-900)

HELLruler.4820:

Should probably go Guardian, or even Warrior
Thief is awesome, really really strong, but both heavy classes bring so much more team utilty and about as much damage as thief (1k-3k difference without boons)

your joking right? a thief can easily double a warriors damage on single targets

would you happen to be a charr guardian with t3 dyed orange and black

Lilith Ajit.6173:

If you’re a good thief as you say, I’d stick with it. There’s no better feeling sometimes in fractals than having a good thief. However, there’s no worse feeling in dungeons and /or fractals than having a bad thief.

I always feel a little nervous when a pug thief comes in, but I gotta say I never have that feeling if it’s a guardian. That might just be a bias I have, but I’ve run with many bad thieves. But last weekend, I met an amazing thief, and I have to say without them my day would not have gone as smooth.

maybe im weird but whenever a pug guardian joins my group im thinking to myself “i wonder if he knows what wall of reflection does…” because i rarely ever see pug guardians using the skills they should be

Gnat.9405:

I think I should add that I am fairly experienced at Thief, as well as most dungeons. I’ve played my Thief most in dungeons, and Guardian I hardly ever touch. I have a good sense of game mechanics (dodging etc). I know both can bring interesting utility – Guardian more so. What would you guys say most experienced groups prefer? I tend to pug but am looking into getting active in more organized play.

since my phone doesnt have brackets copy and paste this ’
http://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&persist_app=1&v=r0K2K-8swAY’, in this video he talks about how useful a thief is for organized dungeons
edit: seems forums linked it without tags

well i have over 500 hours on my thief and 500 on my guard and i have to say guardian is typically more useful but that being said guardians are insanely common and for most things only 1 guard is needed while thief has a basically guaranteed slot in any speed runs and even for most fractals to spam blinds
edit: disclaimer: for those that dont already main a thief, guardian is insanely easier to learn and comparing having to manage dodges/endurance guard has it so easy its not even funny while a thief is instakilled if he messes up

Zero Day.2594:

Dagins.5163:

…
And yes, as a glass cannon ganker thief you want to have as much crit damage as possible for your backstab and heartseeker to kill your enemies before electrons travel to their screens to show the entire tragedy.

OP NERF THIEVES NOW PLEASE, NERF THE SPEED OF THEIR ELECTRONS

sorry that made laugh lol… before electrons travel to their screens… lol

Ugh on the topic of crit damage and criting in general..

Anyone tried using assassin (prec/power/crit dmg) gear? How viable is it to try to max your crit chance (more so than power) along with crit damage… I guess where I’m getting this idea is the rogue archetype in other games sometimes get associated with “unstable damage” but the highest damage possible as well as lowest, through only relaying on some form of a crit stat (be it dex, agility, or crit itself). You get the effect of sometimes hitting for peanuts and sometimes hitting like a train (and the gap is noticeably large). Like zerker gives you more power and less crit chance, so the gap isn’t as huge as it could be. mmm It may as well be a backstabbing zerker… it’s kind hard to pin an example…. if you ever experienced it in other games you would know what i mean…

you can achieve 100% crit chance in full berserkers with food and perception stacks

edit: thats solo crit chance, in a group setting you end up well over 100%

Gsjlink.4673:

I think the problem stems from poor dungeon design. As it stands, it’s all about damage and speed. The stacking, the exploits, the magical spots to stand. It’s rather cheesy. Poor design enables players to crash through the dungeons in order to get their sweet loot. It strikes me as cheesy. These are certainly not your WoW dungeons; in many ways, they make me miss a trinity.

I wish Anet would just redesign the dungeons and put up roadblocks like they had in the Tower of Nightmares. I would also kind of like it if the mobs followed you through the whole dungeon, thereby forcing you to fight them. Frankly, I think the experience would be better if the ability to speed run was simply abrogated. It’s a pity such a wonderful combat system is wasted in these dungeons.

But, it is efficient; until a redesign forces a change, it is going to be all about getting to the end as fast as possible, and newby be kitten ed. Perhaps, in exchange for abrogating a rush playstyle, the mobs can have a higher chance to drop loot or coin.

what you dont seem to get is that stacking = forcing enemies to group up around a corner, the only way around this is to make a completely flat dungeon with no turns, pillars, or objects of any kind (picture a rectangular box)

crit damage doesnt have a cap so yes stack it as high as it will go

if i had to compare its the clerics/pvt that are constantly downed because they dont dodge while berserkers teaches you to dodge

for fractals theres really only 2 viable builds, the highest damage 25/30/0/0/15, or the beginners 25/30/0/15/0 with full berserkers armor/weapons/trinkets, the reasoning behind the full glass build is that after fotm 30 your going to be 1 shot by most trash mobs even if your in full sentinels so put everything into offense and spam your blinds, if you start getting used to berserker at low levels it makes it a lot easier at high levels

Infamous Darkness.3284:

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

25/30/0/0/15 or 30/30/0/0/10 are the only viable pve dungeon builds for a thief.

could you please explain to me how either 30 points or 25 points in deadly arts is worth sacrificing the 30 points in trickery as the trickery bonus is up to 15% more damage from lead strikes trait as well as providing group might, fury, swiftness, and vigor (and a daze I guess) on a 21 sec cooldown, is the reason that it works better is because you don’t lose out on your damage boost from exposed weakness when you are mashing out heart seeker on a boss under 50% health for the executioner trait? or is the power given through the deadly arts trait line enough to offset the extra 5%?

lead attacks is 1% damage bonus per initiative, that being said the majority of d/d damage comes from using CnD+BS meaning very rarely will you have that 15 initiative, typically you only aim to have 7 initiative to get the 10% bonus, meaning from lead attacks you have 7% damage bonus, if you invested in deadly arts you would have 15% damage + 250 power making 30 points in trickery a 250 power + 8% damage loss which is fairly significant

s/d might be decent for low level fractals but the higher you get, the weaker it becomes and why are you trying to daze the gong dredge? use s/p, much more spammable interrupt while evading at the same time
edit: and no amount of protection/regen is going to save you from the masses of dredge that can 1 shot you in as low as fotm 20

Stooperdale.3560:

“25/30/0/0/15 or 30/30/0/0/10 are the only viable pve dungeon builds for a thief.”

That’s the build for perfect dodging and evades which will not suit someone who has never seen the dungeon before. In dungeons there is quite a lot of build flexibility for thieves and you can put some points into either acrobatics or shadow arts for some survivability.

those are the only viable builds, the noob build is 25/30/0/15/0, any build other than these is purposely reducing your effectiveness

now correct me if im wrong here but the last major nerf to pve thieves was -15% damage to pistolwhip nearly a full year ago so why should we be afraid of nerfs?

you can always tell when someone has no clue what theyre talking about when they list their “attack” stat which has no effect on damage
straight from the wiki:

Damage done = (Weapon Strength) * Power * (skill-specific coefficient) / (target’s Armor)

Dahkeus.8243:

Yea, 25/30/0/0/15 is still your go-to build for maximum dps. D/D is what you use on bosses, S/P is what you use on trash, short bow is what you use on large AoE, and P/P is what you use for ranged single-target fights. S/D is good for fights where enemies have a lot of boons (such as dredge fractal), but that’s about it.

There are plenty of other viable builds, but that’s the current meta for players experienced enough to survive without things like Feline’s Grace.

s/d is terrible for dredge fractal, you can only steal 1 mob’s boons per LS and it they get reapplied instantly

xbutcherx.3861:

so I will ask you, what do you use? zerker build? all warriors I see PVE are only using GS.

quit playing open world, only warriors i see run axe/mace+GS, i use full berserkers + scholars, axe/mace+GS 30/25/0/0/15

d/d, s/p, s/d, SB (in dungeons for skips only)

xbutcherx.3861:

Gotta love those warriors that only using GS ..
They think they do a lot damage and the fact is in every dungeon I play I always have perma aggro, also those zerker warrios are down like 70% of the time, so useless and if you think you do more damage than me let do a test. name the server and we can do kill together to see how kills faster.

now correct me if im wrong and if you can point to a specific post, but nobody on this thread has even mentioned greatsword

25/30/0/0/15, the other max damage build 25/30/10/0/5 for uncoordinated groups that take longer than 18 seconds to down a boss is getting bumped down a peg because 25/30/0/0/15 is getting better initiative regen while 25/30/10/0/5 only outperformed at the 18 second mark because of //15’s lack of initiative

full berserkers armor/trinkets/weapons, scholar runes, force/night or force/accuracy for daytime fractals (see below), 25/30/0/15/0, good solid build with lots of dodges that has close to the dps of the meta build
edit: weaponsets to use are s/p, d/d, and sb, rotate them however you feel comfortable because if you followed the first part your in the top 1% of thieves already

the sigils listed are basic every situation, eventually you should have 2x sup bloodlust, force, night, several different slaying sigils and a stack of every relevant slaying potion, head over to the dungeon subforums and on the 1st or 2nd page there should be a detailed guide about sigils and slaying potions

edit2:https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Guide-to-Sigils-and-Potions-in-Dungeons/first#post3257996 thats the guide

xbutcherx.3861:

you can fill out adrenaline in about 2-3 seconds and keeping the 20% fury is important at least for me, is not how hard you hit but how much critical damage you can do. I do about 12-14k eviscerate, about 5-6k arcing slice, 10-12k whirling, 34-40k 100b to a 80 MOB inside any dungeon. I hit hard DPS and I can survive and not been down 80% of the time like those zerker warriors.

I don’t think you understand how low that damage is, besides 100b which was about mid to low average. A 12-14k eviscerate isn’t even worth the adrenaline spent because an axe auto would outdamage it in the time it takes to cast/aftercast. Why would you use arcing slice? You should already be at 100% fury. A 10-12k whirling? Thats a 3.25 second cast time. Axe auto should be hitting over 10k per second meaning in that 3.25 seconds you should have hit 32.5k damage.

knbBlackTemplar.3059:

Clumsy.6257:

what pve are you asking about? open world? any class running around naked can be successful in open world, dungeons and fractals? thief is basically required for most speed runs and high level fractals

edit: and if you are looking to run dungeons/fractals what kind of class are you looking for? the easiest possible? the highest damage? the most support?

Who the hell would ask about class for open world.. you don’t even have to use brain in openworld.

youd be surprised by how many people consider it challenging, as sad as that is

what pve are you asking about? open world? any class running around naked can be successful in open world, dungeons and fractals? thief is basically required for most speed runs and high level fractals

edit: and if you are looking to run dungeons/fractals what kind of class are you looking for? the easiest possible? the highest damage? the most support?

Rym.1469:

I wonder why so many Thieves count Rangers as easiest targets in here when in a mirror thread on Rangers forums most of Rangers list Thieves as one of the easiest to kill, on WvWvW.
Interesting fact, I mostly win with Thieves when roaming in power build. Keeping range and predicting burst may be key in here + timing PBS+ Rapid Fire overkill

its because of the classes there seems to be a much larger population of bad players playing thief and ranger

and thats why i have to facepalm every time i hear thief is bad in pve, think about it, the only difference between your damage and his damage is stats, traits, runes, and food

Doxie.4037:

Clumsy.6257:

Doxie.4037:

Turophile.4028:

Also, thief brings the highest single target DPS the game has to offer if done right.

Don’t you mean Greatsword warrior?

this is funny a pure greatsword warrior is barely above necros while axe/mace+gs still ties for 4th place with s/wh ranger

I am doing it wrong then. I see greatsword warriors do more in a single hundred blades than I do in a long time. When I see a GS warrior drop 27-30k (which is also aoe, although not what we are talking about) damage on a mob in one hundred blades cast, followed by swings for 4-5k crits on autoattacks I really feel left behind. I am nowhere near that as a thief. What is the single target dps max based on? D/D and full signets? S/P?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dTmq9GPN3M comparing damage from a pure gs warrior to a d/d we can get close to tripling their damage in a group setting, its somewhat closer when the warrior uses axe/mace because we do just over 2x their damage, this damage is all calculated with full party buffs and equivalent armor/runes/weapons/sigils, your thief build should be 25/30/0/0/15

edit: there are a few other meta thief builds that work to get similar damage or other advantages that 25/30/0/0/15 doesnt have but they are all 25/30/x/x/x

Doxie.4037:

Turophile.4028:

Also, thief brings the highest single target DPS the game has to offer if done right.

Don’t you mean Greatsword warrior?

this is funny a pure greatsword warrior is barely above necros while axe/mace+gs still ties for 4th place with s/wh ranger

swiftpaw.6397:

Spiky Muffin.9180:

this thread makes me wanna go in pug groups and teach everybody though i doubt that would be received well ^^
anyway thx for reminding me of the people who aren’t kittens and actually appreciate advice.

You think it’s gonna be all rainbows and lollipops.

…

this just made my day

tattoohead.3217:

LOL warrior as 4th highest and thf as 2nd highest… That was cute. Warrior is in fact indisputably #1 dps in all circumstances and they can pull it off with 3 different specs.

please refer to this video to see why your a moron if you think warrior is highest http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dTmq9GPN3M, please note the 25k HS, 60k CnD+BS, also do you even play pve? even with our insane damage ele still blows us out of the water with fgs

Joshua.9346:

As an WvW experimental build. Not too worried about actual damage output. I want the rest of my stats to be devoted to vit/toughness. How much precision exactly / what kinda gear / runes am I looking at?

berserkers or knights or if you dont care about having condi damage rampagers has pre primary, as for build x/30/x/x/x and make sure to use signet of agility

warning: if you dont want to be the best player you can be and/or are fine with mediocre damage and dungeon speeds then ignore this and go bearbow your heart out

i cant speak for wvw or spvp but in pve rangers fairly weak, all they bring is mediocre damage tied with a war for 4th highest (or close to it), frost spirit which is a base 6-7% increase but you could easily be replaced by another ele to increase damage further, and spotter is useless you should already be at 100% crit chance

as for thief just as a big warning, expect to get slaughtered in dungeons until you know the tactics and when to dodge, you could spam pistolwhip with signet of malice and that would make it easier, thief brings 2 things to a party 1. aoe 30 seconds of stealth (this has an insane amount of uses), 2. we have the 2nd highest damage in the game but we sacrifice nearly every defensive stat/trait to get there, which isnt much of a problem in an organized group in pugs your probably better off spamming pistolwhip

edit: sorry for lack of punctuation/sentences but this was typed on my phone

Zero Day.2594:

Clumsy.6257:

The banners are so good that even if the warrior (edit:)stood still the whole dungeon he would still be considered valuable for the large boost to the other 4 players.

Thanks, again.
Boy, I wish I could stand still with a thief and be considered valuable…

Clumsy.6257:

(although that bumps warrior closer to the top)

Clumsy.6257:

i said warriors are closer to the bottom than they are to the top

So, which one is it?

---

So far:

Clumsy.6257:

the video i linked had 1 warrior for banners, other classes cant outdamage warriors by the large amount that they do without a warrior in the party using banners (str/disc only)

Clumsy.6257:

its insanely easier to find a decent warrior than it is to find a decent thief

Clumsy.6257:

The banners are so good that even if the warrior (edit:)stood still the whole dungeon he would still be considered valuable for the large boost to the other 4 players.

I want to ask, do you find warriors OP? Are they better than thieves?

Do you even read my posts? Warriors are close to the bottom of the dps chart in a group setting. In a single player setting warriors are much closer to the top, probably just below thief and ele because they have access to banners while other classes don’t. Do I find warriors OP? No, its just another class taken for being easy while providing a necessary buff. Are they better than thieves? “Better” is a subjective term. Higher dps? No. Better buffs? N/A, 2 completely different styles. Easier? Yes. Less fun? Yes (subjective)

what kind of build are you going for? pve, wvw, or spvp?

Oxxy.7068:

I find icebow just as good as attacking the burrows without it unless i go full nerd and pre cast #4.

you went full nerd? never go full nerd, not even nerds go full nerd /tropicthunder

Banner warrior = zerker warrior (where did you get the idea that a banner warrior wasnt full zerker?), and other classes already out damage warrior (although that bumps warrior closer to the top) without banners, banners just increase the damage even more. As for mesmer, its a bit of a wild card, damage relies on phantasms and can spike from highest single target in game to necro damage depending on phantasms but mesmers main job is maintaining reflects, tw, and pulling. And why do guardians come close to outdamaging highest burst class? Ask anet, they made the class. Thieves also are much better at mitigating damage than guardians assuming your talking about trash mobs (dredge being the exception). And why bring a warrior over a guardian? You fill party slots based on need in this or a similar order: Banners, mesmer(?), guardian(?), Dps. Note: banners are a constant, mesmer/guardian are based on dungeon needs, otherwise fill out slots with dps. The banners are so good that even if the warrior (edit:)stood still the whole dungeon he would still be considered valuable for the large boost to the other 4 players.

Deathspike.1870:

Clumsy.6257:

(*) s/f guard outdamages s/x thief by a little

I can’t get over the fact that you apparently don’t you think that it is sad that a master of support and defense actually outdamages a single target assassin that can’t even endure a few attacks before toppling over.

if you actually read what i posted you’d realize i said s/x thief, meaning not single target, d/d has much higher damage than s/x

Zero Day.2594:

Clumsy.6257:

if you go back and look, i said warriors are closer to the bottom than they are to the top, the very bottom being necros < engi < war, and if you you’d do some fact checking guards are considerably higher than warriors on that chart

So why are they using that one warrior, when guards are considerably higher on the DPS charts?

MyCondolences.8172:

Zero Day.2594:

… If they’re so bad, wouldn’t more thieves in the party be better? 4 thieves, 1 mesmer …

The party would have failed with 4 thiefs and a mesmer. If you didnt notice the thiefs jobs werent so much dps as it was their ability to use cluster bomb on fire field to give whole party 25 might stacks before bosses.

Thief seems to stack might… lose the banner, get the guard, still be able to stack might, seems like a legit overall dps increase… why are they using a trashy warrior? (@Clumsy, not you MyCondolences thanks for pointing it though)

Clumsy.6257:

the video i linked had 1 warrior for banners, other classes cant outdamage warriors by the large amount that they do without a warrior in the party using banners (str/disc only)

Thanks. thumbsup.jpg

So is:
necros < engi < war
when the warrior is using banners (str/disc only). Or is that when he’s running a zerker build? Where does the zerker warrior stand? Also where do you place mesmer? (As far as i know the mesmer’s were brought to do “time warp” (that field that increases attack speed), and to portal on part). Eles?

Clumsy.6257:

and as for saying a thief puts in more effort during a run? its true effort = reward, that reward being defined by the player, be it higher numbers, faster times (** see below) or a challenge

I nice use ‘=’, here let me make it clearier then:

Thief effort = CoF p1 reward, time 5:27mins
Warrior effort = CoF p1 reward, time 5:27mins

CoF p1 reward being tokens/items/whatnot (generalized)
time 5:27 being the time it took, since the “thief group” according to you is faster than the “4warrior group”, the groups finished based on the “4warrior group”’s time.

(The faster group can slow down, by those 10-20 seconds (i dont even think the difference is 20 seconds, i know they start at different places), which would mean, yeah room for slack but really not too much either, (would you freely-nilly stand around 10 seconds at the start, to “burn them”, please keep it in mind that was there ONE run, so maybe nexttime they would need the 10 extra seconds, just like the warriors could run an extra run and be 10 seconds under their 5:27 time).

It should be true that
Thief effort = Warrior effort

But, it’s more like:
Thief effort > Warrior effort
At the same time
(Thief side) CoF p1 reward, time 5:27mins = CoF p1 reward, time 5:27mins (Warrior side)

The reward stays the same… I can unbalance it just like you, saying the warrior “liked the challenge” or “had higher numbers” or “had more fun” so he’s rewarded more, but no not going there, time and items are rewards.

Clumsy.6257:

edit: and lets face it, running cof (all paths) on any class requires little to no effort so comparing how hard it is to use one class over another is irrelevant

mmmmmm difficulity of the path is indeed irrelevant… in this conversation.

Clumsy.6257:

(**) in case you didnt play gw1, the whole endgame revolved around shaving off that 1 or 2 seconds from a run and that matters more than easiness to many gw1 vets

Right, so why are they using that one warrior, when guards are considerably higher on the DPS charts? (I copy pasted)
Could it be because:

Clumsy.6257:

the video i linked had 1 warrior for banners, other classes cant outdamage warriors by the large amount that they do without a warrior in the party using banners (str/disc only)

?

and you do realize ive answered every single one of your questions/statements in the post that you quoted…
edit: that or you dont understand the way a party comp is formed

that was my bad meant to link an LH ele with a 4:07 kill time, cant link right now to hard to copy and paste on phone

Zero Day.2594:

Clumsy.6257:

im the first to admit 4 war/1 mes is an easy setup, thats why is was so popular with pugs,

Huh? Where did you admit that, must have missed it.

Clumsy.6257:

its insanely easier to find a decent warrior than it is to find a decent thief

Yup, thanks. Skill:reward.
Reward being the same, in case of CoF (plus/minus 10-20seconds… comparing videos, 20 seconds isn’t a big deal), one class had to sweat balls, the other took it as a cakewalk (difference? barely, seconds difference).
Harder to be a decent thief then a decent warrior. So, regardless of the time it takes to complete CoF path 1, a thief would have to put more effort (being skilled) to go through it than a warrior, in the end same reward. Even if you tac on time, the difference between the two groups, 10-20seconds… as you said “easier to find a decent warrior than it is to find a decent thief”. (Not even worth being a thief at this point, if one class requires less skill then you while still performing just as well as you (thief) when your an above average(decent) player… what the point of putting in the extra effort? “I like a challenge” – hmmmm, okay, thumbsup.jpg)

Clumsy.6257:

and maybe you should view the video i linked again, 1 war (bannermule) and a ranger which considerably lowers party damage, even with frost spirit (spotter is trash)

So…Originally, you said “speed runs you’d know warriors are closer to the bottom of the dps chart”… okay… then why not bring in a necro, or a guard or a engineer…. surely since a warrior is at/closer to the bottom of the dps charts (even though his usefulness, as you might indicate, is buffing/bannering), wouldn’t an engi be more helpfull, or a necro, or even a guard provide more damage then a warrior (and possibly compensate for the lack of banners via their own damage which is greater then a warriors)? also
“if you go back and look the fastest cof p1 speed runs typically only had 2 wars in them”, kitten 2 of them must have really dropped the dps of that party… If they’re so bad, wouldn’t more thieves in the party be better? 4 thieves, 1 mesmer, sure they lose the banner buffs, but at least they dont have dps that’s possibly the lowest. (And yet, for some reason, in practice, I clearly remember the LFG site having multiple groups looking for only zerker warriors, weird when they’re near the bottom of the dps chart…)

if you go back and look, i said warriors are closer to the bottom than they are to the top, the very bottom being necros < engi < war, and if you you’d do some fact checking guards are considerably higher than warriors on that chart coming in at 3rd place just behind d/d thieves and possibly topping s/x thieves (* see below), and your contradicting yourself, we both said decent warriors are much more common then decent thieves yet you still ask why gw2lfg only had posts asking for 4 wars…, and again you didnt read my post, the video i linked had 1 warrior for banners, other classes cant outdamage warriors by the large amount that they do without a warrior in the party using banners (str/disc only) and as for saying a thief puts in more effort during a run? its true effort = reward, that reward being defined by the player, be it higher numbers, faster times (** see below) or a challenge

edit: and lets face it, running cof (all paths) on any class requires little to no effort so comparing how hard it is to use one class over another is irrelevant

(*) s/f guard outdamages s/x thief by a little but guards sword chain is buggy on the cleave meaning you’d have to use gs in order to get the same guaranteed cleave which might put the guard just below a thief in cleave damage, im not sure of the actual numbers on s/x thief cleave but gs guard should be around 14-15k/s using 20/25/0/5/25

(**) in case you didnt play gw1, the whole endgame revolved around shaving off that 1 or 2 seconds from a run and that matters more than easiness to many gw1 vets