Guild Wars 2

I have a solution to almost all of your problems: guest to a low pop server. I went to 5 events and never hit one overflow… out of 3 we completed I made it to Scarlet 2 times, and the one I missed was cause I went to the wrong wp at first… completely my fault. The zergs there are never more than 20 people, and if they are the group splits. I still go around doing half of an event solo til a commander gets there and helps finish. It speeds up the process.

1) D/P, S/D
2) 0/20/30/20/0
3) WvW

1) S/D, S/D
2) 0/30/0/30/10
3) PvP

1) P/P, D/P (I carry 2 daggers [maybe making a 3rd too], 2 pistols [in the process of making my 3rd, quip], 2 swords, and a shortbow to swap to whatever I need)
2) 0/20/0/20/30
3) PvE

vinceftw.5086:

I have played over 500 hours on my thief and cannot play it anymore because it’s so cheesy. It’s also extremely easy compared to other classes. Compared to my engineer, I feel like I press 2 buttons on my thief to kill someone. On my engineer it’s over 15. It’s a lot more button pressing and to achieve something you often have to press 2 (swapping kits).

I just fought a thief who always ran from me when I got him low and only challenged me when his bas venom is up. I don’t have a stunbreak so that’s the only times he could actually damage me. Venom, 5, steal, 1. That was it.

Everyone who still plays a thief, is A) a noob who needs this class someone who only likes ganking people C) someone that can’t press more than 5 buttons.

Not true. Thief is all about anticipating what your opponent is about to do and countering it (at least if you’re a good thief, a bad thief will just stick to his rotation and attempt to instagib, which against any skilled player just flat out doesn’t work). It is also about playing tricks with your opponent’s mind by using stealth and your movement skills. In many ways, it is just like the mesmer, just a non-magical version. Sure, there are plenty of thieves that run around trying to instagib people and being complete noobs bringing a terrible name to the class. And I apologize to you for having to fight them, because they are so ridiculously easy to kill that you must have cried in shame for them. However, when you come across a good thief, and you can’t seem to hit him, and no matter what you do you just can’t keep track of him through stealth and teleports, and you want to rage that thief is op because of this, stop, and realize that the thief most likely just outplayed you. He saw what you were doing, evaluated where you first looked when you got hit, and changed where, how, and when he attacked based on his evaluation of what you would most likely do. And, apparently, succeeded. At least, that’s how I play a thief, and that’s why I think it’s a fun profession.

So, everyone who plays a thief is either: A) a noob who just wants to instagib people (but probably dies more times than he kills people), or someone that loves to play with people’s minds and counter what they do.
A thief of type A will be terrible and brings a bad name to the class. A thief of type B is the type you see in high level tournament play and occasionally in WvW.

Heibi.4251:

Yes, Battlecamp is back!! Look forward to his presence in your local BL.

Yay! That means I get to attempt to beat my record of lowest level character to beat Battlecamp 1v1! (It’s currently at 68 on a ranger, but I’m hoping to change that to 30 engi)

Chaos Archangel.5071:

@Craig: Seeing that build gave me the idea for blinding glamours. Blind, reflects, condition removal, along with focus and Chaos Storm could be enough defense if Restorative Mantras/Illusions can supply us with enough heals..

I tried blinding glamours for a bit, however, I couldn’t quite figure out how the blind worked (I think it pulses, but I’m not sure how often, or anything), and I didn’t really notice the blinds that much. Extra bounce on staff auto attack means more boons for you and your team, which I found to be more helpful in the long run. However, my tests were very loose and it would need much further testing.
I also tried a healing mantra build with full clerics gear in WvW. I know it’s not the same, but while mantra heals bring much more survivability, it is very prone to interrupts (yes veil helps a bit, but there’s still plenty of aoe interrupts in the game) and deals much less damage. Comparatively, I’ve had more bunker success with this build than a mantra healing build, but that may just be my playstyle too. Again, this is all very loosely tested and would require much more in depth testing to know for sure which is better. I also don’t know how much the stats difference from WvW to tPvP would hurt the healing on mantras (I’ve never run mantras in PvP).
All in all, great ideas, and in theory it would work well, it just needs lots of testing in actually tournament play, to see if mantras would succumb to interrupts, or if veil would be enough to get your mantras charged. I would love if someone could test these things out, but right now I’m on the road to a legendary and am spending my non-farm time having fun in WvW and sPvP (we have to have a little fun right?)

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fgAQNAW8dl0zipXVTqGZ9IhJF923nUw8lj6R3z+3B-TsAA1CtICSFkLITQygsBNEZJyuAA

This is the mesmer bunker build I use when I pvp. Use chaos storm on the point, to keep yourself getting defensive boons, and maybe get rng interrupts (though your main interrupts come from temporal curtain and f3 shatter) for might. Hoelbrak runes give -condition duration, and between that and null field for when you fight a necro or engi, you should be fine against conditions. Very rarely do I end up needing null field when it’s not up. damage comes from might stacks from sigil of battle and bountiful interruption. Defense comes from boons and soldiers amulet. If you really get into trouble, moa morph to get one person out of the fight for a short time.

best build for survivability? Well, in WvW I run a full tank 0/0/20/20/30 in full PVT gear and I survive just fine in the front lines of a zerg and in 5vX fights with my guild. However, for pve, not nearly as much survivability is needed, and you can easily go more offensive in both traits and armor and be just fine with your active defense. I’d always recommend at least 20 into inspiration for warden’s feedback though, as it’s an amazing defensive and offensive trait.

Had some great fights today. KA, you got some work to do if you want to fight Basic, cause we [TFI] wiped you 5v10, and we’re worse than BS by far. However, we all start somewhere, as you said, so keep fighting, you’ll get better.
PAXA, would love to have another go if our schedules permit.

I agree with the op. I can’t count the number of times I have saved a tower or keep. That knowledge of “garri is just a doorknocker, head to hills instead” is priceless to a commander, and I know this from both sides of the table (both as a commander, and as a scout). Then, you have to consider: where you just heading to reinforce the zerg when the thief killed you? If so, and for whatever reason (even just for stinking old map completion), the thief was just helping his server. After all, the enemy has no idea what your intentions are, only that you are heading to the zerg, and that holding you back could turn the tide down the road. So next time you’re ganked by a thief, think about that please. (and yes, some thieves are just trolls, but they would still be trolls if there were no thief class)

Xom.9264:

Anyone that commands pugs is a serious candidate for sainthood. Drives me insane just being in the general area with most pugs…

That’s all I have to add carry on.

I gave up on that when I got yelled at for trebbing klovan while setting up siege in the recently taken Jerrifer’s as opposed to simply ramming klovan down… needless to say, when the enemy (this was weeks ago, don’t remember who it was) retook Jerrifer’s about 10 minutes later, I had a nice good laugh (they had already called in a different commander out of discust).

start at 9:02 if you want to see him run from a zerg, and after that decimate zergs. Watch the whole video if you want to see him kill lots of people (including thieves gasp)
guess you better go roll a guardian…

OP, I would do the same thing to you with my zerk guardian, or a zerk warrior, or a zerk mesmer, or a zerk, well, you get the point (I hope). Thief is not the only class that can do this to you.
Also, it’s not a problem with thief or ele. I was in a 3v1 vs a thief with my level 17 staff ele and the thief, seeing that I was upleveled, focused on me. I managed (as a staff ele nonetheless) to avoid being bursted down and stunned him almost every time he tried to black powder→heartseeker, and when he did get it off, I dodged with perfect timing every time by anticipating when he would hit based on where he was when he stealthed. It seriously is an l2p issue here. Learn to anticipate, react, and not go glass cannon unless you are either fine with getting one-shot by thieves or other glass cannons, or are really good at your class’s active defense (in the ele’s case, mist form, stuns, dodges, and good healing).

Vincent, I think you’re confusing the definition of “many” and “most.” Many just means “a lot,” it does not imply a majority in any way. Therefore, Haley’s statements are correct, in that “many” people go to the restaurant, even though it’s not the majority. However, “most” does imply a majority, and thus had Haley used “most” in these scenarios, they would have been incorrect. As it stands now, neither of you are incorrect, as the majority certainly isn’t rabid, but there are many that do run rabid.

Nuka, not everyone runs a shatter build, where illusions are your main form of damage. Take this build for example
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fgAQNAR8dl0zqqXUTqGa9IxJFMf5oe09s/dSKgdqB-jUyAYLBZCCMJKQZvioxWGLiGryGT9SEVbvFqN5KaA-w
As you can see, no DE. It’s a hybrid phantasm shatter build, full bunker with great damage and support with nearly perma projectile reflect. And what’s your definition of awesome? Does being able to 1v2 consistently, and occasionally 1v3 count? Cause that’s how I fare with this build.

Mesmer forum has a topic almost identical to this one, even has the same name. The first post is really great and I almost posted a topic here about it, so I might as well direct you to it: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/What-s-the-definition-of-overpowered/first#post2474639

snaplemouton.1294:

Ghostwolf.9863:

My guess is that he played a bit after the release and went back to WoW and just started playing again.(based on post history)

I’ve played for 2 months after release and played the whole open beta and pre-release. I had 3 level 80s by the time I stopped and I played all classes in PvP more then enough to know every abilities and nearly every traits.
A lot have changed since then so I’m still trying to catch up with what I missed.
And no I havn’t returned to WoW.
WoW died to me with the release of cataclysm and was only really good in burning crusade.

My guess is that the one calling me troll is having trouble against necro and consider me a troll for asking advice on how to fight a thief with one.

I am far from being a bad player. If I’m asking for advice on my necro it’s because necro isn’t my main. It’s the fifth on my list. So as much as I’d love to be super pro with everything I touch, it’s not possible. So I ask for advice because I’m looking to become better?

2 bits of advice knowing this: 1 go back to thief for a bit. Learn it’s traits and utilities again and the timing of the attacks. Learn where you need to be based on how long you’ve been in stealth. These things will let you anticipate the thief more. 2 ask on necro forums as well. It’s great that you asked here, and people have given you some good advice, but we can’t tell you from your perspective, what you might need to do. We can, like you said, tell you what gives us trouble, and that is aoes, stuns, and knockbacks, but a necro could tell you which skills fit that role against a thief the best. We know staff, but there is also a counter to staff that a good thief will use. A good necro may have advice (since you stated you don’t like staff) to kill a thief without staff. I’d suggest putting the same post on necro forums as well, to see what advice you get there, and combine the advice.

@Keenlam: Our guardians run 3k healing power with 25 life stacks. They easily substitute for the lack in healing I have. Also, against condi spamfest, that’s why I have null field: get the the back and drop it and I’m good. Also why I consider Melandru runes. regariding clones, I found that if you learn to shatter with only 1 or 2 clones out, it keeps vulnerability up and does more dps (with this build) than if you wait for 3 clones being out, otherwise you have to weapon swap on cool down, which takes away from your utility (you want staff when you need it, and gs is your main dps).

@Osicat: melee I use staff. Chaos storm almost always dazes at least once, and if you get lucky, you get the interrupt too. It also grants great defensive buffs while you stand in it. Gs with this build actually does pretty good damage up close too, simply cause you don’t auto attack much. You’re using mirror blade on cool down, mind stab for boon removal and decent damage (great to remove stability right before a daze/knockback), gs5 for knockback which is good if you see a shadow refuge or if you need an interrupt. iberserker is your main for of damage, and another clone to shatter. Once 25 stacks of vulnerability are up, berserker does huge damage, but doesn’t attack again before stacks drop, so a mind wrack with just the berserker does more damage here. However, I may test out sword/focus instead and take the projectile reflect on focus skills. It has less rng on interrupt, but no daze. However, more projectile reflects might increase my dps enough to negate the loss of vuln stacks. Thanks for the advice. And yes, we have mesmers running almost every kind of build, including the typical veil and portal, so those aren’t needed, though I switch them out occasionally if we happen to need them.

@Ansau: Illusionary persona isn’t just for the extra vuln stacks. I use it defensively for an extra second on invuln through f4 to get away, or to dodge a bull rush→hundred blades that takes me by surprise. I do, however, like the idea of the vigor on crit, and may try knights trinkets to increase my precision enough without sacrificing too much survivability. However, if I run sword/focus as Osicat suggested, I’d need those 5 points in Inspiration. Not sure if I’d willingly sacrifice much else (only option would be greatsword training, but that keeps my illusions up more for more sustained dps, and boosts power by 50). I’ll have to test to see which I like better.

Thanks for the advice everyone. I think I’m set on Melandru runes (unless someone convinces me otherwise). Gonna test sword/focus a bit and see if it works better, but if not I’ll probably take the 5 from inspiration and go with knights trinkets to keep perma vigor and increase dps a little.

I created a semi-support tanky mesmer build, and I’d like some feedback on it. Here’s the build: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fgAQJAWRl0zqq3UTqGa9IxJFMv5oeA+s/dSKgdqB-jUyAorARigoEAZviox2BKiGryGT9SEVbv1qN5CRCBIbMA-w
The idea is to stack 25 stacks of vulnerability through having 3 clones and using f3 shatter (4 dazes + 4 shatters + 1 interrupt = 25 stacks), swapping to greatsword (gaining might by sigil of battle proc), and summoning berserker for huge damage, then playing like a shatter build from there. Using greatsword 2 and you shatters consistently will keep your enemy near 10 stacks until your vulnerability burst comes again. This substitutes for the loss in crit chance and damage from full zerk shatter (not completely, but the survivability tradeoff is great imo). It also boosts the dps of your party through the vulnerability. High health pool and toughness allows you to be in the middle of the pack, dropping vulnerability stacks and feedback and lots of aoe damage into the enemy.

What I want to know: what runes would be good? I considered Melandru, but don’t have the gold to test it atm. Any other runes that would fit well with the build?
Do you like it? Would you, as a mesmer, try this out, or is there something screaming to stay away from it that I don’t see? What are some pros and cons that you see right off the bat? Any other general comments? I’m not a mesmer main so I don’t know all the ins and outs of the class. Is there any way you would improve the build?
Thanks in advance for the comments.

@AR
sorry to hear you guys having so many population and morale problems. ET was there and is just coming out of these problems. If you look back at our history and such, you’ll see that we had an even bigger fall: all the way from tier 1 (and yes, it was cause of free transfers). We got to the point where we’d have 20 people pop out of WvW at reset. And that’s across all borderlands. We’ve been there, we feel your pain. Just learn to stop caring about ppt and only about having fun and you’ll do great . Besides, that’s what it’s all about anyways right? It’s just a game, it’s there for fun.

On another note, I’ve been very disappointed at the skill level of people I’ve seen. We had a 3 way in ET borderlands between 20ish SF, 20ish AR, and 7 ET, and the 7 ET won… without anyone dying. Then, we found 2 heartseeker spammers (which I haven’t seen in a looong time. Come on people, this is like 8 months outdated) trying to kill us by sending one down while the other sat on a canon. Needless to say, we had fun farming loot bags for a few minutes. Then there were the 1v3’s, which turned into 1v20’s as soon as the 3 started loosing. If the 3 didn’t have 20 to run to, it was always a tower. Then we had the 3v4+camp+quaggans, where the 3 won. I could go on, but in general I was very disappointed tonight. Let’s bring some better competition besides numbers before I leave on Thursday, k

P/P build
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQRAqa4alcmiOHcy9E+5Ex2jemTe6positTxVtKA-jEyAYrBRTWCMVIiJviox2GKiGruGT5SEVbvLiWtQAlHDA-w
This build is great in PvE and small group battles in WvW. Ricochet makes SoM proc a lot to keep your health up. Damage is great, but it is very heavy on initiative, which is why I trait for so much initiative regen. Very useful when in dungeons with pugs or in tough dungeons such as high level fractals or Arah. The bad side is the poor synergy in the weapon set. To use black powder to tank more, you sacrifice 1 unload. Initiative management can be hard if you’re just spamming unloads. As always, with such high damage output, you are extremely squishy. You’ve got to stay mobile at all times, and shadowstep must be used for the LoS advantage, otherwise you’ll find yourself in trouble. Shadowstep can be switched out for something else if you’re running solo and don’t need the stealth, but it is priceless for revives, and useful for getting away. You’re second weaponset can be shortbow, as opposed to D/P, but I find D/P to be better as heartseeker can be used both offensively and defensively, and has saved my life more times than I can count. However, for pve often shortbow is the better choice.

I don’t feel bad for rangers. Why? because I have an 80 and they really didn’t get hit that hard, and actually got buffed in a lot of ways. Sure, 1 build (beastmaster) that was really good got brought down to par with the rest, and maybe it was in the wrong way, but it’s still a viable build. They got weapon buffs for off-hand axe, which was decent already, and now actually pretty good. They’re bow that was already terrible (shortbow) got nerfed more, when really it needed a buff to the other 3 abilities it has (it doesn’t just have an auto attack and occasional evade you know) and a nerf to the auto attack. Really, rangers came out ok. But this is the thief forum, so let’s talk about mesmers (I know, totally makes sense right?).
Mesmers are the perfect class imo. They can specialize in anything they want. They can go bunker, glass cannon, condi, whatever they want, and be good at it. It has one of the best condi builds in the game (confusion), one of the best glass cannon builds in the game (shatter), a really good sustained damage build (phantasm), an amazing bunker build (the immortal mesmer build by pyroatheist), and a great healing/support build (mantra heals). Compare this to the thief:
One of the best glass canon builds in the game (d/p perma-stealth), decent condi build (d/d or p/d caltrops bleed build) that suffers due to only having 1 condition that is easily removed, a decent tank build (s/d evade build), an ok/bad support build (venom share) that is only good in small groups, and absolutely no zerg build.
Obviously, mesmer has the better deal here. Rangers suffer from the same fate: they have very few viable builds. Sure, you’ll always have the variations, but the baseline build is the same. That is why rangers and thieves need buffs.
I would go through every class, but that would take too long, so I’ll make two categories and put classes into those categories: balanced and unbalanced. Unbalanced means very few viable builds, leading to people who play the class being pigeonholed. Balanced means many viable builds that allow the players to pick and choose the playstyle they like. So,
Unbalanced:
Thief, Ranger, necro (debatable), ele (debatable)
Balanced:
warrior, mesmer, guardian, engi (debatable, class I know least about).
The debatables: necro has power and condi, but not much in between. However, they have many ways to play each, so they are pigeonholed into types of builds, but not how they play those types. This leaves it to be debatable which one they should be in. Ele has two builds: Bunker and support. They have no way of being glass cannon. Sure, they can spec for it, but it won’t be as effective as they can be. They also have the same as necro where for bunker, there are many ways to do it, and many variations. I could see this go either way. Engi has the HgH build, turret build (that is much more viable now), ‘nades build, bomb kit/teldo build, and flamethrower build. However, many of these builds are condition, so it’s debatable that they’re pigeonholed into conditions, however, there are so many forms of it you can pretty much play however you like. I have also seen the occasional zerker rifle build, but not sure how viable it is.

So, this post turned really long, but it is the views of 1 person who has played every class somewhat extensively (except engi, who is only 29 and hasn’t gone into pvp yet) on the balance of classes in the game based on Arena Net’s stated intentions to make every class able to play every type of build.

Mordyph.2104:

IMO thief is the easy mode to play.
1first off thief has been called OP by more players than any other class(wonder why lol)
2It has perma stealth.
3It removes conditions on stealth.
4Its one of the fastest classes.
5Deal very high burst damage(10k on average per hit back stab)
6can pretty much retreat into smoke whenever the thief chooses.
7Its the only class players say you have to play one in order to learn to beat it.
81vs1 almost always wins.
9Only class that says its not OP is thief(of coarse lol)

Very fun class to play at first,but gets to easy and boring later in game(unless of coarse you dont mind always winning,and having overwhelming advantage vs any other class besides guardian)

Its a great class to start with when first learning GW2. because you can engage/disengage fights at will,and the other advantages i listed above.
later on when you get better at GW2 to can really start playing the game by selecting any other class available.

1 go back to the beginning of the game and everyone was complaining that mesmer was so op. Once everyone learned how to fight it, most of these complaints died out. We’re suggesting this is the issue with the thief right now
2 perma stealth decreases you mobility by a lot, so thieves don’t use it out of combat. In combat, there’s this wonderful debuff called “revealed” that prevents perma stealth
3 condi removal in stealth is one of the only condi removals a thief has. It is simply there to give the thief a viable condi cleanse just like every other profession. It is not op
4 this is true, but mobility is the specialty of a thief (or at least, that’s what a-net wants)
5 average backstab from a perma-stealth thief is around 6k, not 10k
6 again, true, but part of what defines a thief. It is necessary for the thief to survive to pick and choose his fights
7 it is also the only class where you have to play every other class to beat them. Fair tradeoff imo
8 and 10v10 it is worthless. It has to be good at something
9 every class will defend itself when the “you are op” card is played. You expect us to sit back and let a-net nerf us when we don’t need nerds?
P.S. I have played every class and can say that thief is not op from experience. There are better classes than thief for everything in the game except for 1vx. How is that op? It just means thief is a specialist.

1. other thieves: thye have best res utility in the game, and can hit as hard as you
2. mesmers: shatter mesmers hurt a lot, phantasm mesmers can dish out a lot of damage, best to get them out of the way before they can get their big guns out
3. rangers: typically very squishy. If, in fact, I encounter a BM ranger I switch to an easier target
4. staff eles: typically squishy and have a lot of group utility to make it a pain to take out the group
5. non-bunker wars: able to dish out tons of damage, but also very predictable. If you always keep your eye on them, they’re never a threat, but they’re nice to get out of the way once your other priorities are done
6. everything else: bunkers typically have such slow attacks you can blind them to mitigate almost all of their damage. Engis and necros can be a pain. If I encounter an engi or necro in a group I typically won’t engage. D/D eles I always save til last. They are a pain to kill if you’re not 100% focused on them. With the water 25 point trait nerfed, they deal much less damage now, but they can still be a threat, so watch out for them.

In any outnumbered situation, always avoid being tunnel-visioned, as it will get you killed. Don’t be afraid to switch targets, and never be where your enemy is expecting you to be.

Jscull.2514:

Yea I mean I know of RIOT, SPCA for the most part, TFI from ET, vT from DH… Help me out here like I said its a struggle to name real 5 mans.

I’m not sure you can really count TFI in this as you said “no more than 5 people.” We will typically have 3-8 people, so we occasionally have more than 5. Also funny that I came to the thread to reply PAXA, then realized who made the thread lol.

@Berk
You want PAXA to fight you 1v1 when they have told people countless times that they’re not built for 1v1?
Anyways, the problem with your post about siege is that the larger group ALWAYS has more siege. So, you see, while this small group builds 1 or 2 arrow carts (because that’s all they have supply to build), the zerg is quickly building 10… and how does this help the small group? You make it sound like only the small group gets siege, which is clearly wrong.
Next, PAXA and KoM are specific guilds that are coordinated and built to effectively work together. Put PAXA vs Red Guard and what would happen? PAXA would get destroyed. Why? Because Red Guard has the same organization PAXA does, but with more people, thus they will come out on top. Equal skill and unequal numbers should mean that the bigger numbers wins, which is correct in this case. However, when you put PAXA vs a pug zerg of more than 30 people, PAXA will still lose (unless the zerg is utterly terrible) even though PAXA clearly has better skill and organization. THIS SHOULD NOT BE THE CASE!!! This is the point we are trying to get people to see. There is an imbalance in this game between player skill and group size that makes group size much more meaningful than player skill.
And yes, I’ve had 3 people kill a 25 man zerg before without siege just by using a series of choke points and great coordination against a pug zerg with no organization. Take into account, however, that this was not an open field fight, which is what we are discussing here.
And, to drive the point home more: I went to the WvW general discussion forums to see what was there regariding this topic, and what do I see? First post: “Idea for encouraging small group play.” Hmmm, sound familiar? Then, curios, I check it out. The main criticism: “better idea: remove downed state and aoe cap.” Hmmm, this is getting freaky, it’s almost the exact arguments we are putting up, coming from completely different people, I wonder if it’s cause they’re legitimate.
P.S. it’s not the amazing small man groups keeping other small man groups away. It’s the lack of reward, extremely high skill cap required to be successful against larger numbers, and lack of other small groups that make people run away from it. When TFI first started to get our group together, we asked for a 5v5 against PAXA to see how far we had to go. The complete and total clobbering they gave us didn’t make us give up, it only made us realize how far we had to go before we could truly call ourselves a party (which we still don’t yet). In fact, it had the opposite effect as what you described: it made us work harder. And you can’t say that these are just people who like a challenge, because about half of our group are more pve focussed than WvW focused, which as you know, is about as far from a challenge as you can get.

Tots.3056:

Also you’re saying fix WvW for small man. One could also argue that WvW isn’t designed for small man, but large epic group fights. That’s why it makes small groups more impressive. If you want serious small man, reinvent your builds in sPvP because you’re playing the wrong game.

Not really. We’re not saying fix WvW for small man, we’re saying make small man a viable option. And spvp is not small man, it’s still zergy in a sense. tPvP is a bit better, but you still only get 3-4 people in a fight, and the fights are always on the same ground. Part of the fun of WvW is the unexpectedness of running into the group: no pre-buffs to help in the fight, just pure reacting correctly. And while in tPvP environment has some play, everyone knows the environmnet beforehand, as opposed to the team that can take note of their surroundings and use it to their advantage first. And in tPvP you must have someone on the point to keep it from getting capped. This changes how people can play. WvW allows for the small groups to run around not knowing how many, when, or where they will fight. This forces the group to have such great synergy to be able to adapt to any situation. A 5-man group can take down a zerg, but when the zerg runs to the nearest tower and half the zerg gets on arrow carts and fires away, it’s not fun for anyone at that point. The 5-man group lost their challenge, and will most likely just run away, the zerg just lost time for what it was going to do in the first place and now they just lost those 5 “free” loot bags. Granted, there are very coordinated guild zergs out there, and they have their purpose. However, it should not be JUST zergs. There should be an option for small man roaming. Because of ET’s low population, we need an option to have small man groups be effective. Unfortunately, they can’t be because of the reasons Jscull and some others have described. We want WvW to be fun for EVERYONE, not just zerglings.

@Sorrow: Pistol whip is not 100% evade time, it’s about 50% of the cast duration. Then, you factor in the after cast, and it’s about 33% evade duration while spamming pistol whip, not including time spent on recharging initiative when you run out. Permanent protection is thus better (and the stun on pistol whip is useless against a boss with defiant, and spamming it will only prevent useful interrupts.) Shadowstep’s priority for use is stun break → positioning → condi removal. Don’t bring it just for condi removal.

Jscull.2514:

Shademehr.1397:

As WvW stands now, there is something to do for everyone’s play style. There are opportunities to play 1vs1, 5vs5, 10vsXXX, use the siege, defend the castle, run the dolyak, grab that supply camp, or whatever you consider “fun”.

You elitists that insist WvW is completely going downhill because it doesn’t support YOUR view (and ONLY your view) of “fun” need to pull your head outta your hineys and realize the world (or a game) don’t revolve around your gaming preferences.

I enjoy all the above mentioned aspects of WvW, which is why I’m there almost every day, as time permits. You whiners and haters? Hit the road. I surely won’t miss you.

Wrong buddy, not something to do for everyone. There aren’t highly skilled groups running around. I have fought every tier below 5 for a year now and can count the groups that give us a solid fight with both hands. That’s pathetic considering there are 20-60 mans running around. So what you said is false. 90-95% of the population does the same thing. And calling us elitests is just pointing out what we are and what we’ve earned. We’re here to compete, not kitten around and play grab kitten with buddies somewhere in the Internet world . Like I said earlier… Most of the population is here for social gathering, reason I’m complaining is because I’ve played other games with WAY less potential with WAY MORE competitive people/teams. Just doesn’t exist here nor does Anet want that. They like majority money spending casuals.

I have to agree with you. I have found so few good roaming groups (TFI still isn’t great as it is, but we still rarely run into groups we can’t beat). I rarely run into solo roamers I can’t beat, even this week while I’ve been testing out a new build. The reason (imo) for this is people don’t do these things because it’s not rewarding (except for personal gratification). How do you get rewards for WvW? Certainly not killing 1 person every 5 minutes. Anet rewards zerging over any other type of gameplay, and the skill level of people who do WvW reflects that. Until Anet starts rewarding people for fighting outnumbered and winning, we won’t see a change in this, which is sad. Those of you saying there is stuff for everyone to do: you’ve never played in a coordinated, good, small man roaming group, cause if you had, you would know how boring it is when you don’t find anyone that’s good, and every time someone’s losing, they run into the nearest tower/keep and start firing a cannon at you. The only enjoyment is demolishing zergs 10x your size, and that gets old after a while. I’m NOT saying it should be ONLY small man groups, I’m saying Anet needs to make it so there are more than 1 per world (which is how it is now). How many zergs do you see every night? I’m betting it’s more than the number of solo roamers and small man groups combined.

Anet really needs to decrease rewards for zerging. I would love to be rank 150. Only problem is I got 10 more ranks in a week on my commander than my solo roamer, and I prefer solo roaming. Then, every time I meet more than 10 people running together (I can occasionally win 1v10, and always love to try) I have to gtfo. Only problem is, 90% of people are running with10+, and the ones that aren’t, are actually good (with the exception of a few). I spent 30 minutes in WvW trolling people because they thought having the advantage of a supply caravan and 2 guards would help them win. I think I made 5 people rage quit/move to a different map, including 2 bronze assaulters. Seriously, if you have the bronze assaulter rank you should have deserved it, not spammed 1 for 10 hours.

I recently (yesterday) tried out a pistol/pistol build for dungeons and it worked great. In a pug it is actually better, because you will most likely be at ranged anyways during tough bosses. I then tried it out in WvW. The damage is nice, but it has issues with facing more than 1 person, simply because it is so squishy, and there’s no evades on your weapons. Just pay attention to buffs so you don’t kill yourself through retaliation or projectile reflects.

And just as I bought my 6 Dwayna runes for my ele in anticipation of it getting to 80. Hopefully this gets fixed

We were running cliffside fractal and when we got to legendary archdiviner at the top, when he put you in cages, the cages wouldn’t take damage. Thus, eventually we all got stuck in cages and had to quit the fractal. I took a quick video of it, but somehow it got messed up and didn’t save the video portion, only the audio. If I get the video fixed I’ll edit it and post it here, but wanted to post now anyways. It happened two times in separate instances of the dungeon.

The main problem with sword/pistol builds is it is very susceptible to retaliation. Because of this, I would suggest a sigil of nullification on one of your weapons to hopefully clear retal before it gets you into a bad spot. Your other option would be to run sword/dagger off hand for the boon steal on LS. However doing this almost necessitates 30 in accro for initiative management. For the other sigil, paralyzation is great to keep them stunned for the whole pistol whip, and if you’re running sword/dagger in swap, then the stun on out of stealth attack lasts longer. Just a couple of points. Very interesting ideas though.

Honestly, I love fighting thieves, even in 1v1, even while not on my thief. Why? I love how much it makes you think. I see a thief coming and immediately I start thinking more. Thieves separate the good players from the bad. The bad ones will go through their rotation, not altering a thing, and rage when it didn’t all go their way, even though their rotation went as planned. The good player will know his skills, not a rotation, and when the thief moves to strike, know how and when to counter it. Stealth just adds another dimension. It makes you stay on your toes at all times, even running from point to point, lest you get surprised and killed before you realize what hit you. So what if a thief can run away? What’s it to you? 1 less loot bag? Suck up and realize you won’t win every fight by going through a rotation. The counterplay to stealth is anticipation and thinking, not standing there waiting for the thief to pop out of stealth. Think, “if I were the thief, where would I be headed, and how would I get there?” This makes combat with a thief interesting and dynamic. Maybe the reason people hate thieves is they make you think, as opposed to you doing the same thing every battle. I personally love that, and look forward to fighting a good thief to see how they react to fighting a good player. I hate facing bad thieves: I faceroll them. I love fighting good thieves because they create a unique challenge that makes the game interesting to me.

Basically any move with a cast time (aka, isn’t instant) you can precast into steal. If you’re running D/P, precasting black powder will insure the enemy gets in the blind field. It also insures your heartseeker for stealth hits the enemy as well for a bit of extra damage.

docMed.7692:

Stealthing also gives you access to more damaging abilities Craig..

Yes, this is true. However, this attack is an opener. The closer for a d/x thief is heart seeker. Watch Yishis’ videos on youtube. Whenever he backstabs someone, he either says “I open on this [insert class name here]” or “I reopen on the [insert class name here].” This shows the same thought process: stealth to reset and reposition and keep stealthed until you have the advantage, the push. Stealth is also made up for by our low health and toughness (of which thief has the lowest of both of any class). And before you immediately try to shoot me down, try it first. You’ll probably be surprised at how much it helps. Also, getting the feel of when a thief will attack while stealthed and knowing how quickly he moves, and the like really helps you know where the thief is while he is in stealth. Notice the fact that backstabs have to land in the back? So maybe when you dodge, dodge backwards, so he ends up either in front of you for a much weaker backstab, or unstealths right in your LoS. Playing a thief REALLY REALLY helps you beat them. Don’t believe me? click this link: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Warriors-Perspective-on-Thief/first#post2158899

I think people need to look at stealth differently. Stealth is giving your targets up to 4 seconds of invulnerability from you. The tradeoff is dropping target and the ability to reposition yourself for a better start. In a sense, it’s a fight reset… for both people. When you think of it this way, you realize why stealth is so bad in pvp (spvp and tpvp, not wvw), mediocre in pve, and good in wvw. in pvp, stealthing is only for running away, which is losing the fight, as you are on a very tight time limit, and resetting the fight gives the other team the advantage. In pve, time is the name of the game. The faster you do something, the more gold you get, and the more rewards you get. So stealth is only useful if you are in deep trouble. In wvw, you have tons of time. One match takes a full week, and one siege can last upwards of 2 hours against a fortified keep that’s well defended. In this scenario, the ability to reset a fight and wait to strike until the thief is at the advantage (which is what the class is all about), is very useful, and not harmful at all. This is why people complain. About the best way to counter a thief is to make him think he has the advantage, and when he pushes, you turn on him. Low on initiative because he thought he had the advantage, and with the element of surprise on your side, not his, he will be easy to take down. When you think of stealth in this sense (how most good thieves think of stealth), you end up finding it incredibly easy to beat thieves.

I think it’s rediculous that grenades and bombs can explode underwater (including a SMOKE BOMB might I add), but blinding powered can’t. That just makes no sense. Thieves have so little utility underwater. I realize the spear 5 with withdraw and roll for initiative allowed for perma-evade and probably needed a nerf, but now we have nothing underwater. The lack of utilities underwater, a ranged weaponset similar to pistol/pistol (same auto attack and unload and harpoon gun 2 or 3, can’t remember, are identical) which we all know the problems of (granted, harpoon gun at least has an escape with the blind on skill 5 (hmm, notice more similarities here?). Now spear gets nerfed, and other people here have described the problems with skill 4, and the other skills were nerfed too much to not buff the weapon somehow. We also have no stealths except for a heal (that should never be used for the stealth anyways). Underwater as a thief is just broken now.

sorrow.2364:

Bacon.4918:

Sorrow go post somewhere else, every time I see you commenting it is disagreeing with someone, and its never anything positive or constructive. Find something better to do than argue with people on GW2 forums.

Yeah, because if I have a different opinion, I should find something better to do than say what I think.

Never anything positive or constructive… God.

I guess I should start whining for buffs despite the fact that I think thief is far from weak to make you happy

Nobody wants anyone to whine about anything, it helps no one. What we want is intelligent comments. Here’s an example:
instead of the classic “thief is op, it facerolls everyone,” a simple “thief’s use of initiative is op because it allows the spamming of high damage moves, and this coupled with many teleports allows the thief to survive any encounter. It should be fixed by putting skills on cool downs, preventing the huge damage that thieves can put out. This would make them use skills intelligently, as opposed to just spamming one move then running.”
This would be much more constructive, as it allows for us to clearly see why the person thinks the class is op, and a possible fix. It also allows us to come back and reply with intelligent comments as well, such as, “the initiative system is simply a way to put skills on a global cool down, which means that the thief has to be smart about how much he spams, so that he doesn’t overextend, and put his escape moves on cooldown. A thief has to be much smarter about using his skills, because using a damage move may prevent an escape move shortly after if it is needed.”
This then allows for a constructive argument over whether the thief is actually op given the two opposing sides. However, if you come at us with simply “thief is op please nerf,” we have no way of knowing why you think thief is op, and can’t help you in any way.
P.S. These arguments were as an example only. They are not intended to start any discussions or claim it is a problem at all.

I use two signets on sword/dagger build: signet of agility and infiltrator’s signet. With the 2 initiative on activation I get 3 dodges and 2 init on activation of SoA. Infiltrator’s signet is mainly for init regen, but it’s great for port stomps if steal is on cd. However, I used these pre patch as well, so I won’t be using signets more, just I had already found a use for them. Nothing will ever take shadow refuge of my bar. However, I have started experimenting with signet of malice with the better passive heal. It’s great for zerg fights, as you can regain health with 40 people attacking you just by using dagger storm (not to mention dishing out tons of damage). However, in a 1v1 scenario, withdraw or hide in shadows is much better.

“STEALTH DOES NOT = INVULNERABILITY”
If only people realized this. I have has so many people watch me go into stealth and sit there, not move, and not attack, then they get hit and complain about there being no counter to stealth. I almost won a 1v1 against a thief on my level 15 ele… wielding a staff. Tell me, how is that possible against an op class? It must be that eles are even MORE op right…?

Travlane.5948:

Craig.2403:

Travlane.5948:

Craig.2403:

Travlane.5948:

Craig.2403:

Travlane.5948:

Craig.2403:

hackdZ.6352:

None of this is really surprising.

Anyone who’s played a Thief to a reasonably high level should know all of this already, it just irk’s me (as a Thief) that people still complain to the forums every time a Thief 1v1’s them.

“Thieves are OP, Stealth is OP, Backstab is OP!” These people fail to realise that the Thief nerfs that have come since launch have made the class almost useless in every OTHER aspect of the game. In WuvWuv group battles, unless you’re spec’d for Venom Share you don’t really have alot to offer, other than Group Stealth, Blind Fields & Blast finishers on the SB. (Now with nerf’d range)

However, I would have thought Thieves would be up there for exploration at least. So many cool (albeit Buggy) Shadowsteps to take advantage of, and just the general manoeuvrability of the class makes it seem ideal?

Even with the group stealth aspect, a mesmer can do much better with veil. It only takes one veil to stealth the entire zerg. I agree though on the exploration. Signet of shadows and shortbow allow you to travel faster than any other class if you know the mechanics of the teleports well.

wrong. bow is slower than heartseekr. learn theif b4 u make claims like that. many / most classes have a forum of perma swift other than thief/necro……thief has 25% on his signet which is obv less than 33% so wrong again. :P fail man fail

ummm… bow is the same speed as heart seeker, and faster with cliffs to teleport up to. Two heartseekers = 900 range for 6 initiative (assuming no swiftness) and 1 infiltrator’s arrow = 900 range for 6 initiative. And the time it takes for initiative to regen is the same. So unless I’m missing something, they are the same speed, and bow is faster in some cases where you can teleport to the top of a cliff if you know the teleport mechanics well. You also have another 1200 range teleport, and a 900 range (1500 if traited) steal to use on ambients as you’re running. Because of these many teleports you can move faster than swiftness. The classes that do have perma swiftness don’t have the teleports that a thief does making them end up slower.

its about distance. not speed. distance and quantity of uses. you get 2 infil arrows for like 1200 distance vs 5 HS for 45 distance. do the math :P lol ….mesmer has blink….warriors rangers and guardians have many leaps/whirls. necro is really the only slow class. engie even gets like 1700 distance with rocketboots

Did you just skip over the sentence where I explained how hs is the same range as ia for the same amount of initiative?And yes, other classes have blinks/rushes or whatever, but they aren’t spammable like the thief’s, or as numerous. Not to mention stealth on demand to avoid combat (which if you didn’t know, slows you down). Oh, and btw, necros have perma swiftness with spectral walk and warhorn, so that’s another point wrong for you.

its not …HS is more distance per initiative. you said its the same as IA for the same init. i understand how you could misunderstand as they are similar statements tho. and necros usually dont use spectral walk :P most anyway. d/d and staff is what my necro uses in any kind of wvw/pvp. i do like warhorn but i feel i get more out of d/d

I gave you the numbers lol. HS = 450 range for 3 initiative. 2 HS = 900 range for 6 initiative. IA is 900 range for 6 initiative. Am I missing something here?

ur missing the “i play thief” experience. IA is about 625 more like 600 maybe a tit less. see that is somethign only a truly experienced thief would know. oh wait…im sorry do you actually cast IA while standing still? well then yes you are right its 900 distance :P my bad. i was figuring we all kind of cast IA on the run….losing 1/3rd of the distance. but i guess technically if u look at wiki ur right :P. its like when you use HS….its actually kind of slow when using 1 bc of the aftercast time to reset….but if u spam them its worth it for distance/time. thats where we differ. perfect world vs actual playing .

Thief was my first 80, and is my main. I don’t lack the “i play thief” experience. And my experience tells me that to get out of a jam fast I should use shortbow because it is 1. instant except for very short travel time of the arrow, 2. able to port you 900 range that would take more than 900 range to walk (aka, up a cliff), and 3. Much more reliable. You never know when you’re going to get crippled or chilled and have your hs distance halved. But, this is not what this topic is about, so how about we agree to disagree or create a different forum topic for this, k

Travlane.5948:

Craig.2403:

Travlane.5948:

Craig.2403:

Travlane.5948:

Craig.2403:

hackdZ.6352:

None of this is really surprising.

Anyone who’s played a Thief to a reasonably high level should know all of this already, it just irk’s me (as a Thief) that people still complain to the forums every time a Thief 1v1’s them.

“Thieves are OP, Stealth is OP, Backstab is OP!” These people fail to realise that the Thief nerfs that have come since launch have made the class almost useless in every OTHER aspect of the game. In WuvWuv group battles, unless you’re spec’d for Venom Share you don’t really have alot to offer, other than Group Stealth, Blind Fields & Blast finishers on the SB. (Now with nerf’d range)

However, I would have thought Thieves would be up there for exploration at least. So many cool (albeit Buggy) Shadowsteps to take advantage of, and just the general manoeuvrability of the class makes it seem ideal?

Even with the group stealth aspect, a mesmer can do much better with veil. It only takes one veil to stealth the entire zerg. I agree though on the exploration. Signet of shadows and shortbow allow you to travel faster than any other class if you know the mechanics of the teleports well.

wrong. bow is slower than heartseekr. learn theif b4 u make claims like that. many / most classes have a forum of perma swift other than thief/necro……thief has 25% on his signet which is obv less than 33% so wrong again. :P fail man fail

ummm… bow is the same speed as heart seeker, and faster with cliffs to teleport up to. Two heartseekers = 900 range for 6 initiative (assuming no swiftness) and 1 infiltrator’s arrow = 900 range for 6 initiative. And the time it takes for initiative to regen is the same. So unless I’m missing something, they are the same speed, and bow is faster in some cases where you can teleport to the top of a cliff if you know the teleport mechanics well. You also have another 1200 range teleport, and a 900 range (1500 if traited) steal to use on ambients as you’re running. Because of these many teleports you can move faster than swiftness. The classes that do have perma swiftness don’t have the teleports that a thief does making them end up slower.

its about distance. not speed. distance and quantity of uses. you get 2 infil arrows for like 1200 distance vs 5 HS for 45 distance. do the math :P lol ….mesmer has blink….warriors rangers and guardians have many leaps/whirls. necro is really the only slow class. engie even gets like 1700 distance with rocketboots

Did you just skip over the sentence where I explained how hs is the same range as ia for the same amount of initiative?And yes, other classes have blinks/rushes or whatever, but they aren’t spammable like the thief’s, or as numerous. Not to mention stealth on demand to avoid combat (which if you didn’t know, slows you down). Oh, and btw, necros have perma swiftness with spectral walk and warhorn, so that’s another point wrong for you.

its not …HS is more distance per initiative. you said its the same as IA for the same init. i understand how you could misunderstand as they are similar statements tho. and necros usually dont use spectral walk :P most anyway. d/d and staff is what my necro uses in any kind of wvw/pvp. i do like warhorn but i feel i get more out of d/d

I gave you the numbers lol. HS = 450 range for 3 initiative. 2 HS = 900 range for 6 initiative. IA is 900 range for 6 initiative. Am I missing something here?

Travlane.5948:

Craig.2403:

Travlane.5948:

Craig.2403:

hackdZ.6352:

None of this is really surprising.

Anyone who’s played a Thief to a reasonably high level should know all of this already, it just irk’s me (as a Thief) that people still complain to the forums every time a Thief 1v1’s them.

“Thieves are OP, Stealth is OP, Backstab is OP!” These people fail to realise that the Thief nerfs that have come since launch have made the class almost useless in every OTHER aspect of the game. In WuvWuv group battles, unless you’re spec’d for Venom Share you don’t really have alot to offer, other than Group Stealth, Blind Fields & Blast finishers on the SB. (Now with nerf’d range)

However, I would have thought Thieves would be up there for exploration at least. So many cool (albeit Buggy) Shadowsteps to take advantage of, and just the general manoeuvrability of the class makes it seem ideal?

Even with the group stealth aspect, a mesmer can do much better with veil. It only takes one veil to stealth the entire zerg. I agree though on the exploration. Signet of shadows and shortbow allow you to travel faster than any other class if you know the mechanics of the teleports well.

wrong. bow is slower than heartseekr. learn theif b4 u make claims like that. many / most classes have a forum of perma swift other than thief/necro……thief has 25% on his signet which is obv less than 33% so wrong again. :P fail man fail

ummm… bow is the same speed as heart seeker, and faster with cliffs to teleport up to. Two heartseekers = 900 range for 6 initiative (assuming no swiftness) and 1 infiltrator’s arrow = 900 range for 6 initiative. And the time it takes for initiative to regen is the same. So unless I’m missing something, they are the same speed, and bow is faster in some cases where you can teleport to the top of a cliff if you know the teleport mechanics well. You also have another 1200 range teleport, and a 900 range (1500 if traited) steal to use on ambients as you’re running. Because of these many teleports you can move faster than swiftness. The classes that do have perma swiftness don’t have the teleports that a thief does making them end up slower.

its about distance. not speed. distance and quantity of uses. you get 2 infil arrows for like 1200 distance vs 5 HS for 45 distance. do the math :P lol ….mesmer has blink….warriors rangers and guardians have many leaps/whirls. necro is really the only slow class. engie even gets like 1700 distance with rocketboots

Did you just skip over the sentence where I explained how hs is the same range as ia for the same amount of initiative?And yes, other classes have blinks/rushes or whatever, but they aren’t spammable like the thief’s, or as numerous. Not to mention stealth on demand to avoid combat (which if you didn’t know, slows you down). Oh, and btw, necros have perma swiftness with spectral walk and warhorn, so that’s another point wrong for you.

Travlane.5948:

Craig.2403:

hackdZ.6352:

None of this is really surprising.

Anyone who’s played a Thief to a reasonably high level should know all of this already, it just irk’s me (as a Thief) that people still complain to the forums every time a Thief 1v1’s them.

“Thieves are OP, Stealth is OP, Backstab is OP!” These people fail to realise that the Thief nerfs that have come since launch have made the class almost useless in every OTHER aspect of the game. In WuvWuv group battles, unless you’re spec’d for Venom Share you don’t really have alot to offer, other than Group Stealth, Blind Fields & Blast finishers on the SB. (Now with nerf’d range)

However, I would have thought Thieves would be up there for exploration at least. So many cool (albeit Buggy) Shadowsteps to take advantage of, and just the general manoeuvrability of the class makes it seem ideal?

Even with the group stealth aspect, a mesmer can do much better with veil. It only takes one veil to stealth the entire zerg. I agree though on the exploration. Signet of shadows and shortbow allow you to travel faster than any other class if you know the mechanics of the teleports well.

wrong. bow is slower than heartseekr. learn theif b4 u make claims like that. many / most classes have a forum of perma swift other than thief/necro……thief has 25% on his signet which is obv less than 33% so wrong again. :P fail man fail

ummm… bow is the same speed as heart seeker, and faster with cliffs to teleport up to. Two heartseekers = 900 range for 6 initiative (assuming no swiftness) and 1 infiltrator’s arrow = 900 range for 6 initiative. And the time it takes for initiative to regen is the same. So unless I’m missing something, they are the same speed, and bow is faster in some cases where you can teleport to the top of a cliff if you know the teleport mechanics well. You also have another 1200 range teleport, and a 900 range (1500 if traited) steal to use on ambients as you’re running. Because of these many teleports you can move faster than swiftness. The classes that do have perma swiftness don’t have the teleports that a thief does making them end up slower.

Bacon.4918:

Good luck fighting in zerg battles with a thief, the skill lag will decimate you if you try to run in behind enemy lines. Yes other classes have to deal with this, but it hurts thieves worst since they rely on evasion and quick escapes through skill usage to avoid focus/damage. Also, the only attack that reliably works (in a timely manner) during zerg fights is the auto-attack, and auto-attacking as a thief is pretty useless in a zerg. This may be different on lower tier servers.

Nope, absolutely no different on lower tier servers. I’m on Eredon Terrace and the skill lag is still bad. Even if we only have 20 people, the enemy usually has 40, so the lag is still utterly terrible in a zergvzerg fight.

hackdZ.6352:

None of this is really surprising.

Anyone who’s played a Thief to a reasonably high level should know all of this already, it just irk’s me (as a Thief) that people still complain to the forums every time a Thief 1v1’s them.

“Thieves are OP, Stealth is OP, Backstab is OP!” These people fail to realise that the Thief nerfs that have come since launch have made the class almost useless in every OTHER aspect of the game. In WuvWuv group battles, unless you’re spec’d for Venom Share you don’t really have alot to offer, other than Group Stealth, Blind Fields & Blast finishers on the SB. (Now with nerf’d range)

However, I would have thought Thieves would be up there for exploration at least. So many cool (albeit Buggy) Shadowsteps to take advantage of, and just the general manoeuvrability of the class makes it seem ideal?

Even with the group stealth aspect, a mesmer can do much better with veil. It only takes one veil to stealth the entire zerg. I agree though on the exploration. Signet of shadows and shortbow allow you to travel faster than any other class if you know the mechanics of the teleports well.

I think this is a great example of how much people over react to stealth in WvW. Imo the most common topic in these forums is the classic “THIEF OP PLEASE NERF,” and then a survey comes out saying thief is the 2nd worst class in almost every aspect of the game! I think this should be a real eye opener for those people who come here to rage about how op thieves are. We are very good at 1v1 combat, but take us into any other scenario and we are terrible. Imo, thieves need much more balance. I was amazed how much more my level 14 ele could support the zerg than my 80 thief. Just the sheer amount of aoe heals from staff and good damage from 1200 range was sooo much better than anything my thief could do. Thanks for posting this

Travlane.5948:

Master of Timespace.2548:

Travlane.5948:

Dagraan.2854:

Incurafy.6329:

Craig.2403:

Alex.6940:

Do damage numbers appear in your combat log if you hit someone in stealth?

No, but if it is a chain attack, you will notice the chain progress. Also, if the skill has a visual effect that takes place on the target (most noticeable is ranger’s entangle, which leaves binding roots on the target) it will appear where the thief is, letting you know where the thief was when that skill hit the thief.

99.9999% sure that they do show up in the combat log.

hits don’t show up in the combat log when you hit a stealthed enemy, iv’e tried it before when trying to fight some perma stealth thief, and no standing in the blind field will not get you hit by their heartseeker, especially if they have the speed signet and the trait to give 50% more speed in stealth and since heartseeker is a leap its affected by it.
they’ll just jump right past you and not to mention the mobility they have means you’ll need another theif just to have a chance to get to the blind field in time, and even if he does hit you all he has to do is evade and pop shadow refuge or the heartseeker spam over the blind field again.

i have 6 accounts including a thief and i have never, ever hit something mid leap with the heartseeker, and the middle of the blind field is “mid leap”

when its said you hit somebody mid leap…. i think its when you jump from point a to point b there is a guy right between them even tho you jump past him you still hit him as you land on point b. this is quite common and happens to me all the time. if i stand in BPS you will break their invis withing 2.5 seconds guaranteed unless they use a heal/utility. also swing wildly inside of it :P

It doesn’t hit. I have played d/p enough to tell you can fairly easily avoid hitting someone who stands in the field, even if it slighlty slows down the stealth chaining process. And I’m not a very good d/p thief. Anyway, often I just backstab those who stand in the blind field.

hrm you can try avoid it if ur start the jump close to him but if hes half way or more thru your jump and in line u will hit him i could make a video of it :P

Just out of curiosity and wanting to know for sure, I tested it on random creatures in Queensdale. I heartseekered from on top of a moa: no damage. I gradually pulled back until at about 200 range (aka, half the heart seeker range) I hit the moa, even though I landed past it. So I have confirmed this. I did not make a video but I can if anyone wants (though it won’t be the best quality).

Aomine.5012:

Craig.2403:

I am constantly surprised by the fact that people think this shortbow “nerf” destroyed the class. I have played ranger for about 3 months now, and have created a very good melee build, without using the shortbow or longbow at all. The only class I have trouble fighting 1v1 is none of them and the only classes together I have trouble fighting 1v2 is none at all. Only against coordinated groups of 2 or more, or uncoordinated groups of 4 or more do I have trouble, and all that is WITHOUT A SHORTBOW! So stop griping about 1 weapon being hit a little bit and actually experiment with weapons that aren’t “auto-attack to win” and require a little bit more skill. The ranger does have a high skill cap, you just have to find builds that let you raise it.

Bravo for you fighting 4 (clap)
My pre-nerf axe+wh/torch with sb can solo 10+ mobs (normal for ranger anyway) and clear them faster than most classes (except warrior) when I’m using drakes
Can also solo 90% of gold bosses that’re below lv70.
So your point is?

My complaint mainly come from dgn usage and wvw usage.
900 range is pathetic in wvw, and if I use axe I can easily track 3 enemies, so why should I use the nerfed sb? There’s no reason …

In addition, despite the great survivability in outdoor content, dgn does not work that way, everyone got hit equally as hard.
Furthermore. I can already feel my bunker trait zerker gears beast master ranger do below average damage compare to a normal warrior before the nerf, and now with the pet nerf, it’s even worse.

ps: If you think ranger has high skill cap, plz do play an engineer or elementalest.
It’ll blow your mind, and you’ll work 10 times harder trying to stay alive.

1. I have played every class in the game, so don’t tell me to play a class, cause I already have.
2. I said I could fight 1v3 in WvW, not PvE, so it does satisfy your complaint.
3. To those saying I want people to use my weapon sets: I never said that, in fact, I didn’t even tell you my weapon sets. I simply said that you should try out the other weapon sets. Speaking from a WvW standpoint, I’d say 70% of rangers used sb pre-patch (this is a very rough estimate and could easily be more or less). This to me screams the need for a nerf. If more than 50% of a prefession is using a weapon something is worn, and Anet realized this.
4. You’re complaining your BUNKER build does less than a ZERKER build with the same armor stats?!?! Am I the only one seeing a problem here? If you build for more defense you will sacrifice damage, it’s the way a game works. It’s called balance.
5. From a dungeon standpoint, rangers are fairly good. They are amazing at kiting and still keeping up dps, which is amazing for Lupicus and Fractals. Sure your pets die quickly, but you don’t rely on melee to keep up your dps like so many other classes.
6. Why should you use the nerfed sb? Well, if you trait for piercing arrows, and more sb damage, it is better than an axe. It all depends on your trait setup. If you really want to use sb then you can make it work.