Guild Wars 2

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Combo_Critical_Chance

Delete this useless trait, nobody is going to use it when it has a 7% critical chance trait right next to it, and no other trait in the game helps “one attack.”

Add: Master Fencer
Sword and Spear critical chance is increased by 10%.
Gain 5 seconds of Might on a Critical Hit. (this adds more passive damage, which the thief needs, we have plenty of burst damage, but compared to other classes our passive damage stinks.)

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Combined_Training

Delete this useless trait, nobody is going to use it when it has a 7% critical chance trait right next to it, and no other trait in the game helps “one attack.”

Add: Swashbuckler
Sword and Spear damage is increased by 10%.

Modkip.7681:

I think it’s a really cool idea, but I would personally prefer it to stay so it has some ranged capability to it since I use it to finish people off when they run from my daggers. I don’t know where I read it, but the idea of the DS skills changing based on what weapon set you have sounds pretty cool to me, and I think that what you posted here could fit nicely with that idea.

To be realistic, I wouldn’t get my hopes up for any major changes though.

Well, pulling people back to you is kind of a ranged thing, but it also snares them too.

I just thought a necromancer slashing people down with a scythe sounds cool.

Speccing for DS gives you a lot of Power (critical damage bonus) damage, and necromancers power weapon is the dagger (melee.), so why is DS mostly ranged?

Kurow.6973:

cesmode.4257:

Hi,
So I leveled a warrior, and I see the insane crits Im doing via 100b. One run of 100b is throwing out somewhere around 30k of dmg. My lowest crit with this is around 4 or 5k.

On my thief I am running a backstab build with the COF set. in PVE I am only getting around 5-7k crits. Thats also whenever the revealed debuff wears off, so every few seconds. My auto attacks do not crit for a whole lot.

I feel really gimped compared to my warrior who is also in heavy armor, with around 8k more HP.

My thief feels weak, with 15.3k HP ;/

Could anyone help with a high dmg backstab build, or whatever kind of build, with some decent survivability?

Dont want to give up on the thief class just yet…
thanks!

High damage + survivability doesn’t mix with thief.

Thief severely lacks DPS. This is a little known fact among those who aren’t ignorant about it. Thief has single target BURSTS, which is quite useless in PvE (especially dungeons). Almost all other classes can out DPS a thief.

Yeah, its pretty sad when my highest damage attack is my auto-attack for sword, the rest of the moves are mostly utility.

cesmode.4257:

Hi,
So I leveled a warrior, and I see the insane crits Im doing via 100b. One run of 100b is throwing out somewhere around 30k of dmg. My lowest crit with this is around 4 or 5k.

On my thief I am running a backstab build with the COF set. in PVE I am only getting around 5-7k crits. Thats also whenever the revealed debuff wears off, so every few seconds. My auto attacks do not crit for a whole lot.

I feel really gimped compared to my warrior who is also in heavy armor, with around 8k more HP.

My thief feels weak, with 15.3k HP ;/

Could anyone help with a high dmg backstab build, or whatever kind of build, with some decent survivability?

Dont want to give up on the thief class just yet…
thanks!

You can’t have that damage without giving up 55 trait points and getting critical bonus gear.

P/D Thieves lacks gap closers (the ability to chase people down.) much like Necromancers do.

Staff. (Turns it into a Melee Weapon.)

1. Ability is now a Melee Cleave with your Scythe.
2-5 are the same marks, except they cannot be placed (are melee.) and do 100% more power damage. (The animation is now different as well, you slash the ground to create the marks.)

Make this a Trait.

F2: Melee Death Shroud.

Don’t Fear the Reaper.
Upon Entering Death Shroud, gain a dark ethereal scythe.

Instead of shooting slow and stupid bolts, Death Shroud should give Necromancer’s a big scythe they cleave people with, this would be much funner to a necromancer who usually can’t run away or get very far.

1. Reaper’s Slash (1,2,3) just add different animations.
Slash at foe with Grenth’s Scythe, dealing more damage the more life force you have.
Damage: 333
Damage: 470
Range: 180

2. Doom (15 second recast.)
Make your foe flee in fear.
Transfers three conditions to your target.
Range: 1200.

3. Dark Paths (20 second recast.)
Throw claws at foes around you, foes are then pulled to you. The effect ends when a foe moves out of range.
Damage: 258
Chilled: 5 s
Range: 1200

4. Same as before.

Soul Reaping

Reaper’s Attrition – Reaper’s Slash grants 2% Life Force per hit. (this will also allow the necromancer to see where stealthed targets are, because they gain life force when they hit a target.)

Reaper’s Might – Reaper’s Slash grants fury and 5 stacks of might for 15 seconds. (30 second internal cooldown.)

tagnut.8621:

Daecollo.9578:

tagnut.8621:

2 idiotic strawman arguments.

Stealth needs toning down massively – its virtually permanent and any thief with more than 2 fingers and half a brain can avoid taking any fire indefinitely. Once out of stealth you should not be able to restealth BY ANY MEANS for a minimum of 10s.

Then the revealed debuff should give at least 15%-33% Damage Reduction to compensate, and regeneration from stealing needs to be 15 seconds, not 5 seconds.

Thieves should also recieve more damage from traits to compensate as well, since our burst damage will be lower, traits that increase dagger damage should be increased by 10%, there should be a new trait that gives sword damage 10%, and another trait which gives all main hand weapons a 15% critical chance, much like warrior and guardian.

Thrill of the Crime should be raised to a 25 second buff, not a 10 second, to match other buffs of other classes. This gives thieves valuable group buffage.

Thieves should also get more access to “fury” (20% critical chance.) to compensate as well, like other classes.

No it shouldn’t – the point is the thief burst is too high, stealth is too strong and the thief has too many tools that are too effective. It should gain nothing and be reduced down to normal levels.

If you played a thief, you would know that nerfing stealth and nerfing burst is the same thing, less stealth and access to stealth would be less burst, way less burst.

Then the revealed debuff should give at least 15%-33% Damage Reduction to compensate, and regeneration from stealing needs to be 15 seconds, not 5 seconds.

Thieves should also recieve more damage from traits to compensate as well, since our burst damage will be lower, traits that increase dagger damage should be increased by 10%, there should be a new trait that gives sword damage 10%, and another trait which gives all main hand weapons a 15% critical chance, much like warrior and guardian.

Thrill of the Crime should be raised to a 25 second buff, not a 10 second, to match other buffs of other classes. This gives thieves valuable group buffage.

Thieves should also get more access to “fury” (20% critical chance.) to compensate as well, like other classes.

Albane.8367:

ZLE.8293:

Albane.8367:

Thieves are stupidly overpowered right now because of Cloak and Dagger and culling. It is why 99% of the thief builds you see have an offhand dagger.

You are aware that thief can only use 2 kind of weapons in his offhand,right?Pistol and dagger.Mathematically this makes 50% chance a thief to have dagger in his offhand.if it’s more,so be it.If we look warrior,how many of them have greatsword equiped in some way?I would guess 100%.Is that making it OP too?

Does the warrior have an ability on that greatsword with a 6 second cooldown (time to recoup the initiative cost) that can regen him for 2800 health, cure 2 conditions, make him untargettable by all enemies, increase his movement speed by 50% and lasts 5 seconds?

Warriors do similar damage to thieves, but you can see them coming and you can stop them from going. Warriors are probably the most perfectly balanced class in the game.

Yes, they do its called: “Charge!” its a warhorn skill, it cures almost all conditions, can convert one of them to regeneration (heal.) and gives them swiftness so they can run away or out of a fight so they can’t be targeted by any enemies, AND its a group buff.

It also increases his movement speed by 50% (33%, because its capped, making the trait almost useless.)

Nemo.6295:

Doggie.3184:

Did you know cloak and dagger only works in melee range when they’re facing you?

Yes… please stop with the DID YOU KNOW stuff. I’m a thief player and I used daggers quite a bit when they wrecked S/P and I am aware of what it can do and it’s in NO kittenING WAY difficult to land a C&D no more than it is to land a Backstab.

All weapon styles need to be balanced, some nerfed some buffed, that’s all.

Did you know our traits don’t work, but go on CD when we’re invisibile? I think Warriors “Endure Pain” should do nothing if its used too frequently.

Why is anyone bothering with venoms? :/

Add an option to add sylvari glow to TA armor.

30 + 30% = 9 seconds.

Making Initative Regeneration twice as fast while making the damage skills do less damage would greatly fix the class, it would give the less damage spells a much easier chance to be used: like body shot, ect ect…

For example: Head Shot the pistol skill was made when initiative was 1 per second, not 1.6 per second, and Black Powder used to cost 5 initiative, not 6, and was also made when initiative was 1 per second.

These were great utility, but now nobody uses them most of the time.

A lot of our skills damage wise, were not updated when they nerfed initiative regeneration.

The reason I said boons, is because then its more of a team thing, the warrior in the vitality tree has access to a lot of boons and boon duration, especially with warhorn, but this means he will be doing a lot less damage and helping his teammates.

There are a lot of classes that grant boons, especially ones when people go down or are about to go down, that is why getting revive speed for each team makes it more of a team effort then anything, it does however mean some classes will probably get revived faster, but that makes sense as well, reviving should be a team effort, but the traits have double effects so the warrior has a chance to GET to his target to revive him first.

Yes warriors have armor, but anyone with toughness can get 3000+ armor, warriors however don’t have the CC or Bleeding/Poison Protection other classes have access to and take for granted, Guardian for example one of there traits gives “When you revive an ally, you both gain aegis, protection, and regeneration for 10 seconds.” this can be a MINOR trait, and its pretty much better then all three of the Warrior traits combined, and they are also a heavy armored class.

These traits make sense, and I implore you to read them all carefully, I think they are very well balanced.

To be honest, I would argue that warriors 5/15/25 traits are all worse then that one trait guardian receives.

Thieves have a lot of Signets they almost have to use, why not have a trait like Signet Mastery like some other classes get?

for example:

Signet Mastery: Improves the passive effects of signets.

Assassin’s Signet: Deal 5% more damage.
Infiltrator’s Signet: Regenerate two initiative every 10 seconds.
Signet of Agility: Increases critical chance of Caster by 5%.
Signet of Malice: Increases the heal amount of Signet of Malice by 20%.
Signet of Shadows: Increases movement speed by 8%.

This would allow more customization for other builds.

robocafaz.9017:

Protection on dodge roll is a nifty idea, but that’s not a level 5 trait, that’s a level 25 trait. That’s a huge game changer. If it’s at level 5 just about every non-glass cannon build will probably grab it.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Companion%27s_Defense

Their 15 trait gives both them and there pet 2 seconds of protection, and its not a 25 trait.

It should remove the cripples and stuff first :/

StugLyfe.2134:

Then they can repeat this chain in seconds so no there is not any real counter for a good bs thief, if you don’t have friends you’re gonna die. This is from wvw perspective, in tpvp thiefs are fine as they cant attain near the damage they do in wvw.

Not true, a warrior or necromancer can use aoes to destroy thieves, especially bs thieves who need to be in melee, but they need to abuse there defense to do such, and not focus solely on offence.

Necromancers are the true counter to thieves though.

StugLyfe.2134:

Henrik.7560:

Thieves shouldn’t be able to move 50% faster in stealth as well as damage doesn’t break stealth, that just gives them a chance to run away miles down the road if things go bad for them.
They can’t have 50% speed in stealth combined with stealth that can’t be broken.

Don’t forget also yhat they loose conditions when entering stealth too.

Speed is capped at 33%, the 50% speed does not make a difference.

Thieves can run far, but they must burn and save there utility slots and initiative for such.

No, you probably shouldn’t,

“Refers to a person, weapon, or vehicle which has a high output, but a low defense, life, durability, etc.”

You gave up durability for high damage, you can instant-gib someone, but expect a stiff breeze to blow you up.

Ensign.2189:

I went and re-timed Cluster Bomb, I was totally off and it’s around 1.25 seconds per use. That makes a big difference, Unload is clearly better damage with the correct numbers (but again not by too much).

Cluster / Trick / Cluster / Trick is easily sustainable at a range of about 600, still doable out to about 800 but the timing gets tricky. Beyond that Cluster / Trick x2 is repeatable.

Unload does about the same damage as standing right on top of a target spamming Cluster Bomb – actually you do more damage with Cluster if you detonate every single one of them, but seriously, you don’t use Cluster Bomb that way.

100% uptime Unload spam does about 20% more damage to a single target than alternating Cluster Bomb and Trick Shot. It also gives you more procs and is a lot easier to use.

83% uptime Unload (which is 2 Unloads for every Vital Shot) does about 13% more damage than 1:1 Cluster / Trick.

Short version: all-in Unload builds do deal more damage than the Short Bow, but not by as much as you probably think.

Many procs have a Internal Cooldown, making unload less and less valuable for its large hit states, it used to be a very good attack when Opportunist and bleeding sigils did not have a ICD, which I don’t think they should.

Basicly it needs to have a 3rd party program (voice chat.) to be of any use.

Not that its worth the trait points anyways, cluster bomb gives more might and choking gas gives all the poison/weakness you need.

Scootabuser.4915:

Daecollo.9578:

Scootabuser.4915:

Daecollo.9578:

Scootabuser.4915:

Daecollo.9578:

Clusterbomb outdamages unload and is an aoe attack, don’t see why you go P/P, its a worthless weapon set.

Just tested it now, cluster-bomb does about 3100-3400 + 500(x1-3) bleed. (Above 50%)

Unload does 6000-7000. (Above 50%)

On top of that cluster-bomb is only spammable if your at point blank range…
I’m providing numbers, where are yours?

Unload isn’t an AOE Attack, it only hits one target, it also doesn’t get the extra effects since its not a blast finisher.

Cluster Bomb costs 2 less initiative, with Cluster bomb and Choking Gas, I can get 30 seconds of poison on multiple mobs, alone.

Cluster Bomb out-damages Unload so much, its not even funny, or worth it.

There is a reason I have P/P main and shortbow as a secondary.

Short-Bow for multi-target damage, P/P for single target damage.

What is so kittening hard to understand about this… Jesus Christ…

Also… Unload is a projectile finisher…

Also… The reduced initiative doesn’t mean anything since you don’t run out of initiative with unload…

Daecollo.9578:

Cluster Bomb out-damages Unload so much, its not even funny, or worth it.

Just because you keep repeating that, doesn’t make it true. Enjoy never progressing past level 10 because you don’t want to accept reality.

Can Unload grant you and your allies 9 stacks of Might?

You mean when our guardian calls out his AoE field and I switch to my Shortbow for 9 seconds and spam Clusterbomb? Followed by the swap back to P/P and the Mesmers time warp, 3 Body Shots and back to Unload. It’s called “The Burn.”

So… yes… this build can grant allies 9 stacks of Might.

Except, it takes time to switch weapons, If I did that, I could get 18 stacks of might to everyone, because I already had my short bow out!

Unload also has a longer channel time, in the time it takes to do an unload, I could do 2 cluster bombs, or a cluster bomb and choking gas at long range.

Scootabuser.4915:

Daecollo.9578:

Scootabuser.4915:

Daecollo.9578:

Clusterbomb outdamages unload and is an aoe attack, don’t see why you go P/P, its a worthless weapon set.

Just tested it now, cluster-bomb does about 3100-3400 + 500(x1-3) bleed. (Above 50%)

Unload does 6000-7000. (Above 50%)

On top of that cluster-bomb is only spammable if your at point blank range…
I’m providing numbers, where are yours?

Unload isn’t an AOE Attack, it only hits one target, it also doesn’t get the extra effects since its not a blast finisher.

Cluster Bomb costs 2 less initiative, with Cluster bomb and Choking Gas, I can get 30 seconds of poison on multiple mobs, alone.

Cluster Bomb out-damages Unload so much, its not even funny, or worth it.

There is a reason I have P/P main and shortbow as a secondary.

Short-Bow for multi-target damage, P/P for single target damage.

What is so kittening hard to understand about this… Jesus Christ…

Also… Unload is a projectile finisher…

Also… The reduced initiative doesn’t mean anything since you don’t run out of initiative with unload…

Daecollo.9578:

Cluster Bomb out-damages Unload so much, its not even funny, or worth it.

Just because you keep repeating that, doesn’t make it true. Enjoy never progressing past level 10 because you don’t want to accept reality.

Can Unload grant you and your allies 9 stacks of Might?
Can Unload grant you and your allies 18 (minimum) seconds of Poison?
Can Unload grant you and your allies 18 (minimum) seconds of Regeneration?

Is Unload an AOE attack, my Clusterbomb can hit for 25k some times!

Scootabuser.4915:

Daecollo.9578:

Clusterbomb outdamages unload and is an aoe attack, don’t see why you go P/P, its a worthless weapon set.

Just tested it now, cluster-bomb does about 3100-3400 + 500(x1-3) bleed. (Above 50%)

Unload does 6000-7000. (Above 50%)

On top of that cluster-bomb is only spammable if your at point blank range…
I’m providing numbers, where are yours?

Unload isn’t an AOE Attack, it only hits one target, it also doesn’t get the extra effects since its not a blast finisher, its a low chance to do a projectile finisher, which isn’t nearly as good.

Cluster Bomb costs 2 less initiative, with Cluster bomb and Choking Gas, I can get 30 seconds of poison on multiple mobs, alone.

Cluster Bomb out-damages Unload so much, its not even funny, or worth it to argue over, hitting a random target in the open and telling me how much damage it does is kind of stupid, in real pve or pvp, there are always combos going around.

Cluster Bomb can give 9 stacks of might, can unload do this?

Columba.9730:

Dual.8953:

Hospis.4607:

IMHO one change will balance thieves and reduce all the hate on them. Just make so that when a stealthed thief takes damage its puts them out of stealth, either by direct damage or aoe. They can keep all the damage and burst they have. WoW rogues have permanent stealth by default but are revealed when they are hit and WAR had the same mechanic. What were Anet devs thinking?

This has been suggested far too often. It essentially gimp pretty much every thief build that isn’t BS glass cannon. And effectively banish them from high level pve zones with lots of aoe, large scale fights in wvw and dungeons.
Thieves don’t survive off of armour, or protective boons, the survive by not getting hit, and they have to do it actively. No throwing up aegis or defensive stances, it’s either they use an evade skill, dodge roll or throw up a blind if they have one, otherwise even tanky thieves are taking the full hit.

Other games seem to do just fine with stealth breaking on damage or on them doing damage. I don’t understand why Anet feels the need to make stealth far more powerful in this game vs other games who have years of pvp experience, particularly since this game already gives extra stealth from culling. It just isn’t logical. Since this is a thread about thieves and their game play, I hope this isn’t deleted too.

I agree, lets make all stealth break on damage.

Yes, lets make all stealth break on damage like other games.

Clusterbomb outdamages unload and is an aoe attack, don’t see why you go P/P, its a worthless weapon set.

Redid the Traits above.

Einlanzer.1627:

Ensign.2189:

Vital Shot has a 0.4 ratio and 4 second bleed on a ~0.88 second refire.
Bleeding Shot has a 0.4 ratio and a 6 second bleed on a ~0.96 second refire.

Rifles do ~15% more base damage than Pistols.

I think Vital Shot wants to fire around 10% faster – that is, a 0.80 second refire or so instead of a 0.88 – and that’s all. The power ratio and bleed duration are right where they should be.

A 10% boost in rate of fire, I believe, would not be enough to maintain more than 5 bleed stacks, which I believe is the primary issue afflicting both P/P and P/D. I think the refire for Vital Shot should be more like .6, which would allow it to maintain 7-8 stacks like other bleeding autoattacks. Sneak Attack helps a bit here, but I would argue that P/P should actually do slightly more damage than the Warrior Rifle (as opposed to equivalent damage), on account of the following:

1. Weaker/less defensive utility
2. Shorter range
3. Thieves are very squishy

And I believe P/P doing slightly more damage than Warrior Rifle was actually the original intention.

Well, the Rifle Refire rate is 8.(something?) the Pistol Refire Rate was meant to be 5.(something.).

Yeah, but only be allowed to use one attunement.

It would ruin thieves, because we would be revealed all the time.

Ensign.2189:

Unload is fine. It needs a bit more trait support, but that’s really it; it’s a perfectly fine finisher that converts initiative directly into damage. Pulling the cooldown off Sundering Strikes, fixing Ankle Shots to actually last 3 seconds, and moving the dual skill boosters from 5% to 10% (all of which are perfectly reasonable changes) is more than enough to make Unload an incredibly sexy beast for anyone going all-in on Unload.

The hard part is what to do with Body Shot. It’s difficult because you want it to have interesting use cases with both P/P and P/D, and most of the low hanging fruit is already taken by other skills. Sticking a snare on it would make it redundant with Dancing Dagger on P/D, for instance, while making it a big damage skill conflicts with Unload on P/P. On top of that there just aren’t a whole lot of animations available – just the normal shot that’s used for the auto-attack, and a chain firing animation used for Sneak Attack.

There are a bunch of different directions you can go with the skill if you’re able to re-theme the skill – as an explosive blast, a toxic shot, a shotgun blast, and so forth – all of which could be interesting and weapon defining. Without changing the theme, however, the best I think you can do is to make this a fast attack (quarter second activation) that applies weakness (and vulnerability) – give it a bit of damage to make up for the initiative lost, and make the duration on the weakness long enough to make it both disruptive and a cover condition, and I think you have something with some value.

Unload is not fine, it does 40% less damage then volley, its easilly the most dodged skill in the game, and it does crap for damage, it shouldn’t be worth 5 initiative, in fact its not.

It needs a 25% damage upgrade, a range increase, and its initiative cost lowered to 4.

Yaki.9563:

Daecollo.9578:

I believe the Vitality Tree needs a little work, especially the 5/15/25 abilities, they just seem crap compared to almost every other traits in the game, nobody needs help rezzing, rezzing is usually done once the fights over, and in the middle of battle, 10% faster rezzing isn’t going to matter much.

5: Vanguard: Gain Regeneration for 6 seconds after a dodge roll.
15: Unstoppable Force: All Regeneration effects are increased by 50%.
25: Juggernaut: MELEE Damage is increased by 1% for 12 seconds each time you are healed, stacks up to 25%. (if you are at max health, you do not get healed by anything.)

Let me explain 15:
Regeneration is increased by 50%.

This Effects:
“Regeneration” the boon.
“Adrenal Health” the trait.
“Healing Signet” the heal.

This turns the vitality line into a useful buff tree, but you don’t feel like your screwing yourself with useless 5/10/15 traits, the traits are not overpowered unless you ignore the warrior and let him heal.

Of course, I want all opinions good or bad, because I can edit it.

So you went from some of the worst traits (and don’t pretend like only warrior has them) to the most OP minor traits in the game, bar none? Good job.

Explain how they are overpowered.

50% Regeneration Potency brings regeneration up from 300 to 550 hps, sacrificing almost 30+15 points to make it powerful, that is points your not putting into DPS by the way, and you also sacrifice a condition removal to get adrenal health signet, which is the worst warrior heal. I guess that is overpowered, losing almost 30-40% dps to increase a little healing, sounds balanced to me.

Juggernaut isn’t that powerful unless the Warrior has a lot of survivability, which he already would give tons of DPS for, and has to use healing banners anyways to get most of it.

Actually, its a pretty interesting mechanic, the longer the warrior lives in a fight, the more damage he gets, but if hes squishy, he might get maybe, 3-5% damage from the trait?

err… 6 seconds of regeneration is a little much… maybe down to 4 or 3 seconds.

Binary Rain.4869:

Taril.8619:

Binary Rain.4869:

9Thief
Only reflection via Dagger Storm. And acess to stealth. Other than that, there is nothing else that thieves can do to mitigate damage in some way.

Technically there’s still Death Blossom, Disabling Shot, Withdraw and Roll for Initiative allowing extra evades that they can use to mitigate damage.

I was not including evades because lots of other classes have many of those too.

Funny thing about thief, is the thief has the lowest defense out of all classes against burst, which means another thief should be killing you more, but I never get one shot at all on my thief by another thief, even in wvwvw the most i’ve ever been hit for was 25% of my health, and then I know they are there, they try and leap me… then run out of initiative because I dodge them. (very easy to dodge heartseeker, I know the sound and animation and distance by heart.)

So, when another class complains about it, its actually kind of funny, since most classes have more traits that avoid damage mitigation and can actually soak up that damage or apply protection right after your burst, I guess they don’t bother to dodge the two heartseekers that follow after the backstab.

I don’t think my thief has ever been killed by a back-stab thief, ever… they are probably the most predictable class in the game.

Death Henk.7143:

mark.3160:

……. i don’t enjoy playing a class that only takes 2 buttons to put down any other class in the game that isn’t a full bunker build. So my feedback on the thief and it’s gameplay? Fix it fast because it’s no fun fighting something that presses the same button 5 times in a row for a guaranteed win…..

This is pretty much what I think of the current state of thieves. The only way to really survive (not even taking killing in account here) a thief’s burst is being fully focused on survivability. If you are not a guardian or warrior the fight is literally over within 5 seconds. With either you dead, or you succesfully repelling the jump and him resetting in stealth walking away.

If other professions cooldowns would match the thief’s stealth cooldowns I would have no problem with this. However the cooldowns of most classes for survivability are longer than restealthing. This makes it very easy for a thief to simply put the target on cooldowns and killing him the second time by resetting the fight. Again the killing part is not with alot of effort and I think this bothers alot of people. Also at some point or to the least to say, some professions might feel obliged to take certain utilities specifically to survive a thief and thats just wrong in my opinion when there are 8 professions in total. Moreover it destroys the whole concept of changeable utility skills.

No, you could just get toughness or vitality gear, you don’t need to fully bunker.

crouze.3078:

With high power, no healing power and leeching venoms you get a bonus damage and heal of 380 per hit.
Spider venom lasts for 6 hits traited.

6 hits * 380 heal/hit = 2.280 heal
6 hits * 380 dmg/hit * 5 players = 11.400 dmg

This may look good. but

• You need 30 points in a full defensive trait line + 2 major traits.
• All players need to stay in a 300 range
• 36 seconds cooldown when traited
• The heal is not superiour to other aoe heals (amount of heal, recharge, range)
• Utility for poison? we have a shortbow poison field…
• Other venoms last for at least 2 less hits.
• The damage may look much. But other classes/builds have more dmg on a 6 second cd weaponskill.
• Dmg scales only little with power (might wont buff the dmg that much)
• Its fix damage. So it wont benefit from crit, vulnerability stacks or suffer from enemy armor.

Or I could lay down short bow 4’s combo field for 0 traits and do more poison then I could sharing it with venoms.

Or everyone could simply use “Skale Venom” and apply more vulnerability then what venom sharing could.

Mobs are immune to the other Venoms.

Its not a balance issue, everyone who goes into Power will want all the critical bonus, and everyone goes into conditions will want the condition duration, this weakness just pigeon holes people into certain builds, that is not suppost to be what the game is about, its suppost to be about customization.

For example:
I pick vitality tree, and on secondary stat, I pick critical damage, Wow now I have a whole lot more choices!

Secondary Stats of Each tree:
Condition Damage, Critical Damage, Condition Duration, Healing, Boon Duration.

Allow us to pick and choose what traits we want in which tree, this will allow much needed customization and not pigeon hole us into so many builds.

Traits 5/15/25 should also be chosen between the 6 trees, this will further allow customization to the trees, and allow a lot more builds to come into play, I believe these changes will really help all classes as a whole.

mark.3160:

Was trying to defend a supply camp tonight in WvW. 1 thief took down 2 guys. I knew i couldnt res them so i tried to lure him out of stealth by pretending to res a downed guy. As soon as i stood next to him the thief attacked me. Thanks to culling, he already took 50% of my health, i quickly dodged, thief heartseeked after me, i dodged again, thief heartseeked after me, im out of stamina, thief kills me with yet another, autohoming, gapclosing heartseeker. He stealths to insure a stomp and im dead.
After this i had two choices. 1. play my own thief or 2. log out. I logged out, because i don’t enjoy playing a class that only takes 2 buttons to put down any other class in the game that isn’t a full bunker build. So my feedback on the thief and it’s gameplay? Fix it fast because it’s no fun fighting something that presses the same button 5 times in a row for a guaranteed win…..

You actually died to someone pressing the same attack over/over?
What class are you?

Kazin.2073:

I got a few
5- Take no damage, ever
15 – Deal 1000% Additional damage while health is above 1
25 – Increases magic find by 1000%

Ok maby they are a little OP but not as crazy OP as some of the suggestions being thrown out there.

Explain your words please, I would really like to hear your intelligent breakdown of whats overpowered and underpowered.

Atticus.7194:

Daecollo.9578:

Columba.9730:

Highest dps, best mobility and permastealth. Something needs to give.

Highest DPS? that would be warrior.

Highest Mobility, that would be warrior.

Permastealth? A liability to your server or team.

Uh, no way… not even close to sort of kinda true.

Highest burst? Thieves (warriors don’t even have the highest sustained damage anymore)

Highest Mobility? Thieves

Most “Oh kitten” buttons? Thieves

Best class ability? Thieves

Right on though, keep trying to play the martyr and convince everyone that this 39 page thread that exists on the thieves forum alone is completely unjustified and unfounded.

Its obvious you probably don’t play a thief or warrior, since you don’t know either.

Mobility:
Warrior.
Elementalist.
Thief.

In that order.

And Black Powder/Head Shot really need to do atleast 450 damage.

Columba.9730:

Highest dps, best mobility and permastealth. Something needs to give.

Highest DPS? that would be warrior.

Highest Mobility, that would be warrior.

Permastealth? A liability to your server or team.

Monki.5012:

Daecollo.9578:

Also, there are plenty of traits that benefit melee only.

For example?

also:
5 + (1.5625 * Level) + (0.125 * Healing Power)
5+ 125+114,5 [916 healingpower basevalue) @ lvl 80
=244,5 HpS

*1,5 [50%]
=366,75 HpS whith the 50% trait.

+208 Healingsignet
+120 adrenal health
= 694,75 passiv healing each second
which is quite alot and if you add healingpower it would be much more. add a shouthealbuilt and you are quite unstoppable.

Who said something about conditions? Of course reggen cant cure conditions.. dunno why you talk about condition now.

I wouldnt mind if juggernaut works at range. Bow does low damage and the only dangerous thing about rifle is the burst. If you get hit by that in PvP you did it wrong. In PvE every +damage supports the party.

Why wouldnt a glasscannon benefit from it? If he survive that one fatal blow he benefits from reggen. More thoughness would smoothen out the curve and makes reggen more attractive though..

Again I am not saying that I dont like your or your idea.. I just wanted to point out the flaws so we can come up with a more realistic solution.

Yes, but you give up 30 traits to do that, those could of went into dps, thats pretty much -30% damage to gain a little more of something you already have, you spent 30 trait points to make your 500 hps 800, so to be honest, fairly, thats a good trade off.

The reason it wouldn’t really benefit a glass cannon is this: You start out with 0% when the fight starts.

You get damaged, AND then you start to heal, that means after the fight starts, you start actually getting 2%-3% every second.

The main reason it sucks it, Glass Cannon specs are usually about bursting down your opponent quickly in a short amount of time. (100b/bullsrush.) won’t really get benefit from it, because you would start at 0%.

Monki.5012:

I agree that a Warrior needs more sources of selfhealing, grating a reggenboon would be a option..
However 6 seconds seem a bit much. Remember that you can dodge twice and regain endurance faster with signet or Burstkills (besides other sources like other players)

also bear in mind that 6 seconds can easily be extended by buffduration by at least 80 percent which equals a reggen uptime of 21 seconds with a full endurancebar.. so its has 100% uptime. This sounds massiv overpowered to me but I wouldnt complain because Warrior is my favorite class.

Also why does Juggernaut only work on “MELEE”? I cant recall of any trait rune or sigil that makes a difference between melee and ranged attacks. Should be on all attacks imo.
Also this mechanic might get abused by standing in aoe stuff and use traited healsignet to have a high and fast proccchance.

50% on regeneration sound much too. According to wiki reggen heals for about 244 HP each second with base healingpower. so 366 HpS ontop of adrenal healt and healingskill seems very much.

Dont get me wrong I support people coming up with new ideas to make my class more fun but I doubt that changes like that will make it into the game.

But I like the reggen on dodge idea.. just need to be reduced to 3 or 2 seconds or so.

355 every second if you think about it, isn’t much, and it heals for 208 per second, so that would be 312.

If you count that it does not heal conditions like poison or bleeding as well… (I hate poison…)

The reason its Melee only is because of the way it works, if it effected range then it would be a lot easier to abuse, you could just stay back take some hits and heal up for that easy 25% range damage boost, since its melee damage only, you have to be up in the fight and taking hits and trying to stay alive, this makes it much worse, and better at the same time, that is why its so high.

Juggernaut by description is: An overwhelming, advancing force that crushes or seems to crush everything in its path. (Does not seem like something you could use as a ranged weapon.)

Because its Melee only, a glass cannon spec could not really benefit from it.

Also, there are plenty of traits that benefit melee only.

Jzaku.9765:

kRiza krimos.1637:

Tactics tree gives traits that boost longbow damage and range, where is logic to boost its minor trait for melee?

Tactics tree also gives Vitality, which is a defensive trait, which is much more important when you’re meleeing the faces of mobs as compared to being at ranged. (Although honestly you’re going to be dropping into melee range to get the most out of the longbow anyway)

In regards to the actual topic, while I agree the minor traits are kind of bad, these changes are way too strong. Especially Juggernaut, with all the regeneration ticks you’d be putting out you’d always be at +25% damage which is ridiculous.
I’d say leave the 5 point trait as it is right now, +400 toughness while reviving, then replace the 15 and 25 with Vanguard (nerfed to 3s of regen, you dodge roll pretty often and then it wouldn’t make traited banner regen useless for you) and Unstoppable Force (nerfed to 20%, 50% is way too much of an increase)

That depends, for Juggernaut it would not instantly put you at 25% Melee Damage, at most with all the healing traits, you would be getting 2% per second, then every 3 seconds you would be getting another 1% (the traited heal heals for a lot, but only heals every 3 seconds.) so at most you would be getting 2.3% per second, which would take about 12 seconds to get your healing up to get that 25%.

Also, that means you would have to be using healing signet, which is a reduction in itself, since it heals for much less then the other healing abilities (8k no cond removal.), (6k, condition removal.). Even with the 50% Regeneration.

Its the fact that it would take 12-22 seconds in a pvp fight to really get good, and then when your out of the fight, you have to start over again. (When your at max hp, you stop healing, so when the fight ends, the stacks go away, you have to get into the fight again and survive another 12-22 seconds of combat to get it up.)

Warriors go down pretty fast because we don’t really have anything that clears conditions quickly over a long period, so I usually have tons of .. poison on me all the time, which really hurts!

Its only melee damage, it doesn’t go on your traits either, but it is a big bonus. With it though comes a big penalty, its not instantly given to you, you have to earn it by living, most other traits are just handed to you, having a trait that gives you damage on sustaining the fight probably means your not gonna be stacking anything but a lot of toughness, warriors don’t have protection unless they have a friend, so we go down pretty fast when focused on with pretty much anything.

Remember, each second in a PvP fight matters. This is also counting you using every available heal the warrior has to get as much out of it, I don’t know anyone who would or could do that without sacrificing a lot of damage anyways. (You probably sacrificed way more then 25% damage speccing for it, and thats instant, lol.) [Remember, Warrior has damage traits all over the place]