Guild Wars 2

rylark.3418:

xiv.7136:

Just as an example.

Stonemist gets taken. A few mesmers die inside and don’t release.

A thief perma-stealths inside and cannot be found. Once people have left the area after doing several thorough sweeps, he resses the mesmers.

Squad waiting outside.

Portal.

Portal.

Kill Lord without even starting an alert.

Pretty much breaks the whole of WvW I think you will find.

Stealth like that has no place in the current game. It needs to be fixed.

What’s the point of perma-stealth if you do no damage at all? I’d actually love to fight 5 perma stealth thieves, oh yea get lord what now? I’ll be waiting for your 3k backstab while we’ve 3 points captured and when you appear get ready a burst that you can’t do.

More like 1.5k backstabs, he has 0 points in the critical strikes tree.

Stealth is so OP in dungeons, one time I stealthed to revived my party and it reset the boss who was at 4% health left.

xiv.7136:

Daecollo.9578:

xiv.7136:

Panacea.4927:

Because some suddenly up popping smoke screens and black powders are totally not obvious…

Actually no, they really aren’t.

Especially since you need to kill that perma-invisible thief before leaving the area.

A good perma-stealth thief can kite over a dozen people around endlessly. It’s actually very easy to do so.

Now imagine 2 perma-stealth thieves in SM doing this. Now imagine 5.

Perma-stealth is broken. It needs to be fixed.

Yes, but what can a perma-stealth thief do if they just ignore him?

…. I just explained that. He can ress the mesmers. Portal. Read.

But he can’t be a perma-stealther if he rezes, he has to keep spamming his Black Powder and Heartseekers.

xiv.7136:

Panacea.4927:

Because some suddenly up popping smoke screens and black powders are totally not obvious…

Actually no, they really aren’t.

Especially since you need to kill that perma-invisible thief before leaving the area.

A good perma-stealth thief can kite over a dozen people around endlessly. It’s actually very easy to do so.

Now imagine 2 perma-stealth thieves in SM doing this. Now imagine 5.

Perma-stealth is broken. It needs to be fixed.

Yes, but what can a perma-stealth thief do if they just ignore him?

You can get perma-stealth!

pervertparade.7146:

Rizalee.4593:

Give Rogues a Perma-steath ability on a mid duration recharge (Maybe 60 seconds) that only works in open world settings.

Even the open-world content has balance requirements. If you allow perma-stealth, then Thieves could easily harvest valuable resources (e.g. Omnomberries, Orichalcum, Passiflora) without being slowed by the need to fight or evade the mobs guarding those nodes. If properly traited (http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fleet_Shadow), then they would permanently benefit from the fastest movement speed in the game, providing a solid advantage in exploration (e.g. map completion, scavenger hunt). They would also have an advantage in several Jumping Puzzles (such as http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Wall_Breach_Blitz), since they could simply ignore enemies who are supposed to pose a challenge to players.

33% Movement Speed isn’t that fast.

Not really, we should just have more access to boons, especially swiftness.

Thieves lack the boons most other classes enjoy.

Its been 33% for awile, can we please remove it? It would be nice to use some talents and runes.

Dee Jay.2460:

Yeah…while the 10 seconds are somewhat excessive I agree that Swiftness just makes more sense than the ominous “50% speed increase”….which apparently isn’t 50% anyway but rather 33%…which is exactly what Swiftness grants.

The reason why they probably didn’t make it Swiftness is because as a boon it is prone to modificators like “boon duration” .

That in turn might result in Thieves having quasi “perma-Swiftness”, which while nice, goes against the “temporary boost” nature of boons.

You mean “boon duration” would actually matter for us like it does other classes? Le gasp!

I mean, getting boons from our boon tree that increases boon duration and claims to be acrobatics.

rylark.3418:

Daecollo.9578:

xiv.7136:

rylark.3418:

1st: No you can’t get 100% stealth, it’s impossible.

You must be new to playing a thief.

Here, I’m feeling charitable. I’ll teach you.

Get ready, I’m about to blow your mind.

Black powder. 3xHS.

Permanent stealth. Forever. You don’t even need a target to C&D.

Now go, impress your friends with your new-found thief skills.

Black Powder has a 4 second duration.

Vital Shot/Body Shot/Black Powder have a slow refire rate of 0.75 seconds.

Heartseeker has a 0.75 (3/4) channal time.

That is 1.5 seconds, now you must turn around, RUN into the circle (since you just used heartseeker, your away from it.) and then heartseeker again, which usually can’t happen until the combo field ends.

You must be IN the combo field and use heartseeker, so the most you could possible get per Black Powder is ‘2’ heartseekers.

Wrong mate, if you can actually do 3. 1 inside, 2nd from outside of the field to inside the field (yes it works), and the 3rd in the field again. But still, that gives you 5sec stealth and you run out of initiative.

Make a video of it please, and please don’t link another video, go to SPVP with an up-leveled thief and make a small video, showing me you can get 3 heartseekers in one black powder.

“When you stealth, you gain swiftness for 10 seconds.”

xiv.7136:

rylark.3418:

1st: No you can’t get 100% stealth, it’s impossible.

You must be new to playing a thief.

Here, I’m feeling charitable. I’ll teach you.

Get ready, I’m about to blow your mind.

Black powder. 3xHS.

Permanent stealth. Forever. You don’t even need a target to C&D.

Now go, impress your friends with your new-found thief skills.

Black Powder has a 4 second duration.

Vital Shot/Body Shot/Black Powder have a slow refire rate of 0.75 seconds.

Heartseeker has a 0.75 (3/4) channal time.

That is 1.5 seconds, now you must turn around, RUN into the circle (since you just used heartseeker, your away from it.) and then heartseeker again, which usually can’t happen until the combo field ends.

You must be IN the combo field and use heartseeker, so the most you could possible get per Black Powder is ‘2’ heartseekers.

I’d use Full Valkyrie + the new Baalthazar Jewelry.

rylark.3418:

DanH.5879:

the only way out of this is for a-net to nerf the thief in wvw even more, and give some buffs for pve, deal ???

Isn’t thief supposed to be a PvP class? How’s nerfing PvP and buffing PvE going to work, that’s a stupid deal.

No such thing as a “PvP” class in this game, and if it is, its behind all others.

This stat increases the character’s movement speed in combat.

Columba.9730:

ViRuE.3612:

jan.9745:

Im sorry but you are the one, who dont know what you are talking. Watch this video on how fast is the initiative regen make sure you watch the entire video! You are the one need to L2P and you are the one need to learn how to play a real man dont hide!
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/external?l=http%3A%2F%2Fm.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DZCWywAXmVP4

I love that video, keep posting it everywhere. It pretty much proves this:

- The thief beats terrible players
- The thief quickly beats uplevelled players
- The thief admits that smart players give him trouble
- The thief admits that many duels with dagger elementalists can last up to 8 minutes
- The thief can trait for different things (shock, horror!) and one of those includes initiative regen
- There are a TON of really bad players in WvWvW
- There are a TON of really bad players who regardless of the ways to counter a thief and regardless of how many times you tell them still won’t get it

Honestly, I hardly even need to mention some of that zerg (which in actual fact he barely annoyed) killed themselves going over the cliff. 99% of them didn’t even care he was there at all.

I’ll quote Jonathan Sharp here:

“Thieves are the masters of mobility, stealth and high single target damage. They can be very fragile if you counter their stealth with area of effects or large stacks of conditions, but they trade this fragility in order to have some of the highest burst damage in the game.”

Exactly what you saw in the video – mobility, stealth, high DPS burst and taking on chosen targets which are natuarlly squishy, uplevelled or… I dunno, maybe just there to make up a zerg and get some karma or something. Anytime anyone with any clue at all turned their attention on the thief he was in trouble.

Still, I guess he doesn’t post videos of himself getting his kitten handed to him. I mean it doesn’t take much, you can see his health and sats. I have similar armor/toughness on my thief and let me tell you I fold like a wet paper bag against good players regardless if I’m in stealth or not.

ok so highest dps, perma stealth and best mobility? if so, that’s broken. It’s always the same thing with you guys. Anyone who questions your god mode needs to l2p. why is it that thieves get 10x+ the complaints of other classes, and we don’t see these players complaining about other classes? logic disconnect.

That does sound broken, I wish I was an elementalist with warrior dps and some how the ability to ignore revealed and use stealth forever.

Whatever this class is, its absolutely rediculous and needs nerfed, but I’m reporting the above post because it obviously belongs someplace else.

Lets all go on the Warementalthief forums and call nerfs.

I agree on this, Superior Runes should not be rediculous.

Pistol.

³ (4 Initiative.) Repeater
Blast your foe with rapid fire from your pistol, does more damage the closer you are.
Damage at 400 distance: (x5) 810
Damage at 900 distance: (x5) 505
Combo Finisher: Physical Projectile (20% chance)
Range: 900

⁴ (3 Initiative.) Opportunist’s Shot.
Damage: 303 + 101 (Per Condition.)
Combo Finisher: Physical Projectile
Range: 900

⁵ (6 Initiative.) Dirty Fighting.
Kick your foe in the… Knocking down your foe.
Damage: 554
Knockdown: 2 s
Predictable: 15 s
Range: 130

Tooltip: (Predictable, your foe blocks this attack if used again.)
(This skill has no cooldown, but you cannot use it on the same target twice, you must wait 15 seconds, however you can switch to another target and do the same to him.)

Dagger.

³ (4 Initiative.) Twisting Fangs
Spin in place, hitting nearby foes. Each hit causes bleeding and poison.
Damage: (x3) 87
Poison: 9 s (Each Hit Causes 3 seconds of poison.)
3 Bleeding: 9s (425 damage) (Each Hit Causes 1 stack of bleed.)
Range: 130
“allows you to move at reduced speed.”

⁴ (5 Initiative.) Shadowy Leap
Leap off the ground, leaping to your target.
Landing damage: 676
Radius: 120
Combo Finisher: Leap
Range: 900

⁵ (2 Initiative.) Quickening.
Quickness: 1.5 s
Fury: 1.5 s
Swiftness: 1.5 s
Mental Stress: Takes 1% life every second for 10 seconds, stacks with itself up to 10 times, this ability will down you if your health gets too low.

(I could also rewrite this to apply “1” stack of confusion on myself for 10 seconds, which would basicly be killing myself every time I use an ability, even autoattack.)

The Idea is to make “One Hand” Thieves Viable.

Class Mechanic: One-Hand Mastery (Using a one-handed weapon doubles the stats of what it currently has.)

Sword.

³ (4 Initiative.) Stab:
Stab your foe, causing Vulnerability.
Damage: 236
10 Vulnerability: 6 s
Range: 160

³ (2 Initiative.) Pull. (can be used after you successfully stab.)
Pull your sword from your foe for extra damage.
Damage: 636

(this skill allows you to wait until you need to use your burst, however you can only use it 10 seconds after you use stab.)

⁴ (5 Initiative.) Dance of Blades
Spin and swing your sword around wildly.
Damage (9x): 1,251
Combo Finisher: Whirl
Range: 160
“allows you to move at reduced speed.”

⁵ (5 Initiative.) En Guarde
Block the next incoming attack. Riposte your foe and stealth if you block a melee attack. Gain fury if you are not attacked.
Damage: 268
Stealth: 3 s

(Gain 5 seconds of fury if not blocked.)
_____________________________________

Bas.7406:

Daecollo.9578:

I will come as long as i’m the only necromancer in the group, if I am, the other 4 will be useless.

haha, that would make a lot of sense on an All-Necro run wouldn’t it?

Actually, we never really had cap issues. Though I stopped using any chill skills, because someone kept chill constantly on the target. You realize there are other necro builds – dagger well – hybrid – condi-mancer – MM – DS Centric. Not to mention the odd thing bwahb runs.

Last night we had the following and it tore through everything

MM – Bas
Hybrid – Bhawb
Condi – Lettuce or that new guy
Staff well – ozy
Dagger/Well – Bhaur

considering we had only one full condition mancer who was using epidemic we rolled through everything. You do realize you can change your utilities so you don’t cap out all the conditons. You could add in something that would benefit team play.

My necro is a staff/well/cond basicly all of them rolled up in 1, wells don’t stack with eachother, and necromancers don’t have any projectile finishers or blast finishers besides staff auto-attack and chillbanes.

Basicly, it would be 100 times better to have a Necro and 4 warriors or guardians.

Sebrent.3625:

Daecollo.9578:

Sebrent.3625:

@Jonny.9370 and @Daecollo.9578
It is not about cooldowns. It is about actually seeing the ability and having a chance to react. There is a massive difference between reacting to something you can actually see being performed and simply guessing what they will perform next.

Warrior:

• I see bolas so have a chance to dodge/block/etc.
• I can use condition removal to get out of bolas
• I can see bull’s charge so have a chance to dodge/block/etc.
• I can use a stunbreaker to get out of bull’s charge
• I can see Hundred Blades so I can dodge/block/etc.

Thief:

• I can see him stealth but not I must guess at what time he is going to backstab me.
  He has 3+ seconds to choose from.
  • 2 Dodge rolls don’t even cover 3+ seconds and leaves you with no stamina to dodge cloak and dagger so then what would you do for the next backstab even if this did work.
  • Blocks don’t last longer than 3 seconds but thieves have multiple ways to get more than 3 seconds of stealth.

The thief is going to backstab you within 2-3 seconds and cloak and dagger you after revealed is gone, if you can’t time this you should play a thief and learn how it works.

You’ve obviously never fought a warrior who saves his skills, if he just suddenly bull’s charges you first, yes its easy to dodge, but if he WAITS and uses it a little later, especially at VERY CLOSE melee range, its almost impossible to dodge. (your also ignoring the shield stun warriors have as well.)

Yes, the thief is going to backstab me anywhere in the next 3+ seconds he is stealthed. How exactly does a person guess when during that time the backstab is going to happen? On my Mesmer, I counter with my own stealth but on my Ranger I’m stuck guessing when to use one of my many evades.

As far as cloak and dagger being easy to evade, that’s great except when there are enemy NPCs nearby that the thief simply hits with cloak and dagger to gain stealth again. Then there’s the 3 other stealths I previously mentioned that many stealth-spec thieves are taking.

Oh em gee, could it be that the thief may be behind you?

ensoriki.5789:

Columba.9730:

Sorry, but there is noway that rangers are equally as good in WvWvW as are thieves. Most thieves admit that.

Pretty sure if I understood mechanics right you get a better return off stacking Rangers since spirits aren’t on that aoe cap than you do thieves. 3 stone spirit rangers = perma protection for the zerg. Vs 3 Thieves with what Refuge/Blinding powder that effect 5 at most, within shorter rangers, and the defense immediately flops the moment you attack back? Vs perma 25% reduction?

Thieves don’t have protection.

Columba.9730:

Altie.4571:

Columba.9730:

In WvWvW, thieves already get perma stealth due to culling. Thieves already have great escape tools. The other classes with good mobility also have low health, so I don’t get your points.

We’re talking about fixing the class not game bugs.

They already know about game bugs. Please focus.

They are linked. While culling is broken, stealth needs to be adjusted.

And how are you going to compensate?

Sebrent.3625:

@Jonny.9370 and @Daecollo.9578
It is not about cooldowns. It is about actually seeing the ability and having a chance to react. There is a massive difference between reacting to something you can actually see being performed and simply guessing what they will perform next.

Warrior:

• I see bolas so have a chance to dodge/block/etc.
• I can use condition removal to get out of bolas
• I can see bull’s charge so have a chance to dodge/block/etc.
• I can use a stunbreaker to get out of bull’s charge
• I can see Hundred Blades so I can dodge/block/etc.

Thief:

• I can see him stealth but not I must guess at what time he is going to backstab me.
  He has 3+ seconds to choose from.
  • 2 Dodge rolls don’t even cover 3+ seconds and leaves you with no stamina to dodge cloak and dagger so then what would you do for the next backstab even if this did work.
  • Blocks don’t last longer than 3 seconds but thieves have multiple ways to get more than 3 seconds of stealth.

The thief is going to backstab you within 2-3 seconds and cloak and dagger you after revealed is gone, if you can’t time this you should play a thief and learn how it works.

You’ve obviously never fought a warrior who saves his skills, if he just suddenly bull’s charges you first, yes its easy to dodge, but if he WAITS and uses it a little later, especially at VERY CLOSE melee range, its almost impossible to dodge. (your also ignoring the shield stun warriors have as well.)

I wish this could get some kind of reply, there are a lot of roleplayers in this game compared to other games.

Mister Mustard.7203:

frans.8092:

Sebrent.3625:

…D/D Thieves are quite similar in that they use #1 #2 -or- #3 depending on power/cond build, and #5 and are very effective.

You forget the number 4 to cripple and catch fleeing opponents. Thats … all 5?

Sebrent.3625:

P/D is Pistol w/ Offhand Dagger so #5 is Cloak and Dagger which gives stealth. They then use the pistol stealth attack (Sneak Attack) which has decent direct damage, applies 5 bleeds, and uses 0 initiative

It’s direct damage is quite poor, to use effective you should really focus on the bleeds (+duration, +condition damage), which rules out power based weapons (just about everything else)

… Yes, in some the zergs are horrible, but in others you see people try to chain CCs but they are evaded and the thief stealths …

Blind and CC is the way to go, if a zerg fails to catch a thief it’s really their fault. There’s only a limited amount of endurance and stun breaking. It’s more the zerg’s hive-mind that let’s them escape.

What are you talking about with what type of damage sneak attack is? Whether it’s condition damage or power, it still hurts. There are plenty of videos of P/D thieves trolling about nigh invincible. You can bury your head in the sand and pretend they don’t exist, but don’t make pointless arguments to defend it if so.

Also, how does being in a group help anyone catch up to an escaping thief? Between stealth utilities, blinds, swiftness on dodge, SB 5 / Dagger 2, a thief can run from 50 players as well as 1. If you get caught by the zerg, you probably die, but you still have to get caught.

The best way to beat a P/D thief is just ignore him, its not like he can catch up to you or do anything about it.

Columba.9730:

We don’t need to guess what a warrior is going to do. We either see it or see the traits that precede the moves. Not true at all with thieves.

How can you see it comming unless he opens up with it? If I’m in melee range (100 meters.) and i’m already initiated the fight, he could assume I don’t even have that ability, then I could suddenly out of nowhere just use it and 100b, he wouldn’t expect it.

Softspoken.2410:

Daecollo.9578:

I will come as long as i’m the only necromancer in the group, if I am, the other 4 will be useless.

Not sure if serious.

I’d have the bleed cap, poison cap, weakness cap… don’t know why you would need any other necromancers.

Sebrent.3625:

Jonny.9370:

How do I dodge something I can’t see, you say? Well how am I supposed to know whether you are going to hundred blades me immediately or wait till I blow CDs? Are you going to use Bull’s Charge or maybe swap on hammer/mace/shield stun? How will I ever know how when to use my stunbreaker? How do I know what traps you are dropping and when? How do I guess when you decide to shatter your clones? How do I know that my burst won’t be completely negated by your blurred frenzy? How am I supposed to burst if you are just going to pop a pushback as soon as I start? How am I supposed to fight if you are just going to pop fear if I get close?

See? I can whine about how this game makes me play intelligently rather than have every fight an A+B=C encounter, too.

The thing is, you can see the warrior throw a bola. You can see the warrior bull’s charge at you. You can even use a stunbreaker or condition removal to get out of either of them if you failed to evade them. You can see the Hundred Blade’s and dodge roll, block, hit distortion, teleport, etc. depending on your class. People have nothing to indicate even a 0.5 second before when you are going to backstab them. That is the difference. I can react to something that I can see. I cannot react to something that I cannot see except by trying to guess when you are going to backstab or, depending on class, using something like Ride the Lightning to get the hell away from where you stealthed, but that’s letting the Thief force a reset on the fight.

Whether or not you have blown all your stamina and cooldowns when someone uses their high damage attack is a completely different issue.

A large part of GW2s combat that was advertised was using the actual animations in combat as visual cues instead of simply staring at icons. When fighting most classes, they have been quite successful at this. Even when fighting some thieves, it has been very successful. When it comes to the ease by which a Thief can consistently backstab a player in a single fight, how much damage it does, and the lack of any visual indicators they have an anomaly.

Not really true, when I play a warrior like that, I like to make them waste there dodges, or pretend i’m a tanky warrior, then when they least expect it, I bull’s rush/100b them.

Its exactly the same thing a thief does, if they don’t expect it and they have a 0.2 second chance to dodge it.

This usually works best if I start out using a hammer, people love dodging the hammer…

Rayya.2591:

i play thief since day 25 Aug. but thank you for the welcome.
I kindly request an answer from moderators regarding this , because in my personal oppinion this is an bug, but i want to know A-net oppinion regarding this.

They have to code things in to lock them out, so someone obviously took the time to code it to lock it underwater, so its probably not a bug.

Toughness does need a little boost, but Critical Damage is fine in pve/pvp, fights already last too long.

CassieGold.7460:

Scootabuser.4915:

Death Blossom is TERRIBLE DPS, it is a PvP ability.

If you want to roll condition in PvE go Necromancer and you will cry over all the time you wasted thinking 3 bleeds was good.

3 bleeds no…. but chain DB x3 + some caltrops and you start racking up 12+ stacks of bleed Of course, if you want to spam DB that fast, you risk falling off a cliff some times…. which was the point of the thread :P

Stupid thief, hes contesting me for damage! – Necromancer :<

I will come as long as i’m the only necromancer in the group, if I am, the other 4 will be useless.

Welcome to playing a thief, the only profession which mechanic does not work underwater.

Have fun doing Fractals/PvE content with little to no access to stealth and your other mechanics.

I would love to use the city if it wasn’t so crowded and qued all the time.

Yes! Learn to play with our autoattack only, since it seems to be the only damaging ability anyone wants us to have. LOL

I agree, this city is a great city, but the que times often make it impossible to role-play or do anything in. Some times it takes hours just to get in.

I just wanted to ask something, since heals are so small.

Does life stealing atm even do damage?

As long as the cooldown of steal is reduced to 10 seconds.

The problem is now, only one trident mesmer or necromancer is useful in a group setting.

“Whenever a minion dies, it explodes in a cloud of poison and confusion that lasts for 3 seconds.”

This would buff up some traits and give minion necromancers more access to damage and conditions.

Infiltrator’s Strike > Heartseeker.

Yes, but Anet with this, would know which traits are good and bad by how many people turn them off.

Olba.5376:

Not going to work.

The Warrior Tactics minor traits are widely considered useless. Disabling all of them would give a Warrior up to 45% Boon Duration and 450 Vitality, which is obviously broken.

How would that be broken, that sounds pretty balanced to me if you sacrifice all your points into that tree.

And it would encourage developers to buff traits people turn off.

The ability to disable the 5/15/25 Traits to get stats from the Tree.

Each time you disable a trait, you get 5% of each stat + 50 stat points.

For Example:

Necromancer
Death Magic:
5: Reanimator (disabled.)
+5% boon duration, +50 Toughness.

15: Protection of the Horde: (disabled.)
+5% boon duration, +50 Toughness.

How would they… why would they…what server are you fighting?

I wanna fight against this server!

EasymodeX.4062:

Maugetarr.6823:

Occasionally with a 60% crit chance you might hit more than 3/5 attacks as crits, but you will also hit fewer than that too. In the long run, you should average about 60%.

And 60% is not 0%, thank you.

Yeah, but you have a chance of not critting any attack, or critting all of them.

NOBODY PASSES THE BLACK gate it seems…

I don’t understand why MMOs continue to ignore the use of spears and polearms, in the middle ages these were some of the best weapons used in many wars.