Guild Wars 2

Andele.1306:

So you want the underwater spear for land combat?

I WOULD LOVE A SPEAR on land…

It seems that there is no MMO with spears.

Wouldn’t it be cool for Necromancers to get a Melee Attack that applies ‘2’ stacks of Bleeds (double the amount of bleeds for ranged damage.) and did a little bit of damage, as a Cleaving Attack?

1. Slash at your foe twice with a Reaper’s Scythe.
Damage: (x2) 153
(2) Bleeding: 8 s (680 damage)
Range: 130

2. Poison your Foe with the Front of your Scythe.
Damage: 153
Poison: 4 s (336 damage)
Range: 130

3. Create a symbol that drains life and heals you and your allies.
Damage: 353
Damage (4x): 610
Combo Field: Dark
Range: 180

Cayl Bourne.8073:

Daecollo.9578:

Have fun meleeing anything hard, in Fractals Necromancers and most players are usually standing away from the mob in PvE as well. (Yes, in the average CoF run, Dagger/X is pretty powerful, but that content is so easy I can run pretty much anything and be about the same.)

Daggers may hit fast, but they are one of our weakest weapon sets for damage. (Plus, trying to balance an entire mechanic around one weapon set is a pretty dumb idea as well.)

Life Siphon does not critical, and it ignores armor. (as i’ve said many many times.)

" If my necro hits a target 4 times in a second, critting twice, then the traits deal 240 damage and heal me for 240 health (~40 dmg/heal each). This means their total contribution to the fight is 480 health per second that I can maintain contact with the target."

That is impossible, Life Siphons don’t critical and they ignore armor, like condition damage does, infact my bleeds tick for 124 every second per bleed, so basicly the lifestealing damage would be almost as much as a bleed stack if you did it like such.

But also, YES it is kind of funny if you actually use Dagger/X, but a Dagger/X necromancer is very weak compared to others, I absolutely trash them in both PvE/PvP.

Dagger and Axe are both very good weapons for producing high numbers of hits. I’ve said this before.

I have NEVER said that Siphon Health mechanics crit. I’ve even told you before that I’ve never said that. If you take the Vampiric Precision trait you gain a 51 damage/healing siphon when you crit on top of the 38 damage/heal siphon you get for connecting with the attack.

Dagger with high power/crit/crit damage gear is the highest “perfect world” damage a necro can attain. As far as I know, the same is true for every class in the game. The highest direct damage Weapon1 that a class has + Berzerker gear = highest dps. The reason for this is that it is a 3 stat synergy. Each stat (power/precision/crit damage) multiplies the value of the other 2. This damage also scales with vulnerability which easily outweighs the damage reduction of armor in most group circumstances.

Conditions only have two stats, condition damage and condition duration. They do not scale with vulnerability but are not mitigated by armor. You cannot spend every stat point you have making your conditions do more damage like you can with direct damage. The advantage of conditions is that you do not have to maintain contact with the target to continue to do damage at that they are more consistent.

You can spend every stat you have increasing your damage, but in the end you can’t damage anything if your dead.

Melee Necromancers who wear berserker’s, with no mobility and no dodging, are usually the first things to die in pvp/pve. (Even with Knight’s Gear.)

Your damage/survivability as a Dagger/X Necromancer are still nothing compared to a Warriors.

Then it doesn’t work on Spectral Walk’s Swiftness?

Cayl Bourne.8073:

I try to keep all my arguments as generic as possible with regards to the type of play. There are many ways to play this game and the “real world”, as you say it, is not pvp to many people. Each person should be able to take the information you offer and apply it to the way they play the game on their own. Otherwise the discussion will always degrade into a “in my experience in this specific situation insert trait/skill here is worthless/overpowered” type of argument.

If you want my opinion, Siphon Health mechanics are very powerful and dependable in open world pve and dungeon running. In pvp, they have high POTENTIAL benefits especially in 1v1 situations but will tend to be quite weak in 10v10.

PvP (and any real world competition) has always and will always be about trying to apply your strengths properly and avoid situations that expose your weaknesses. If you can control how/when/where the game is played you can tilt the scale towards your own strengths.

Have fun meleeing anything hard, in Fractals Necromancers and most players are usually standing away from the mob in PvE as well. (Yes, in the average CoF run, Dagger/X is pretty powerful, but that content is so easy I can run pretty much anything and be about the same.)

Daggers may hit fast, but they are one of our weakest weapon sets for damage. (Plus, trying to balance an entire mechanic around one weapon set is a pretty dumb idea as well.)

Life Siphon does not critical, and it ignores armor. (as i’ve said many many times.)

" If my necro hits a target 4 times in a second, critting twice, then the traits deal 240 damage and heal me for 240 health (~40 dmg/heal each). This means their total contribution to the fight is 480 health per second that I can maintain contact with the target."

That is impossible, Life Siphons don’t critical and they ignore armor, like condition damage does, infact my bleeds tick for 124 every second per bleed, so basicly the lifestealing damage would be almost as much as a bleed stack if you did it like such.

But also, YES it is kind of funny if you actually use Dagger/X, but a Dagger/X necromancer is very weak compared to others, I absolutely trash them in both PvE/PvP.

Curses
Spectral Attunement – Spectral skills have longer durations and grant life force on use.

Spectral Walk: Swiftness Duration increased.
Spectral Grasp: Chill Duration Increased.
Spectral Armor: Protection Duration Increased.
Spectral Wall: Vulnerability Duration Increased.

I know it says spectral skills have a longer duration, but the boons/conditions should as well.

Manticore Five.9867:

I don’t think that making lifesteal worth taking the traits is an achievable goal.

You can have significant LF absorb
Or you can have significant lifesteal food.
Or you can have significant lifesteal runes/sigils
Or you can have significant lifesteal traits.

But you cannot have all 4. Right now, it’s 4 that’s suffering, and it will continue to suffer until at least one of the above 3 is weakened significantly, and probably not even then.

In fact, I believe the only reason we’re allowed significant LF regen is because it’s a unique class mechanic – we can’t share it with others or use it except in a tightly controlled mode.

So for these traits to ever become powerful enough to be something you’d pick on purpose, they need to do something ELSE other than what you can put on your equipment. Maybe like regen your minions, or something.

If Every other class can get ‘3’, and we’re one of the weaker classes…
An Elementalist can get ‘3’, then get ALL the regeneration, crazy 4-5k heals from dodging/condition removal every 10 seconds via a utility slot… ect ect, and they werent stating they were nerfing that, just there aoe damage…

Elementalists Air Scepter’s 1 ability hits ‘6’ times in 1.25 seconds… and Engineers Flamethrower’s ‘1’ hits 12 times…. (engineers have REGENERATION/Protection as well, almost forever if they spec a certain way…)

Its not fair, by your logic. (For people wanting to be vampiric necromancers.)

Also, we won’t have 30 points in death-shroud, we probably won’t have any, because you can’t heal in death shroud, so why would death shroud necromancers WANT life-stealing traits? they don’t even work in death shroud…

Softspoken.2410:

Dietzen.6127:

Softspoken.2410:

digiowl.9620:

A heal signet thief chewing omnom will outperform a necromancer using traits…

You’re comparing a dedicated healing skill to a collection of two or three traits, one of which is a Master Minor trait. (Nourishment buffs aren’t really relevant from a class comparison perspective.)

A thief with signet still heals for just as much if not more than a necro with both lifesteal on hit and crit and 50% improvement. That’s 2 traits and a minor trait that a thief can cover with just his heal signet. Ayraswag has a lifesteal vid up on youtube that shows the power of lifesteal of thieves. Seems silly that a thief can lifesteal more efficiently than a necromancer can.

I still think that sacrificing your burst heal skill completely (Hide in shadows is practically consume conditions + stealth, and withdraw is a good ‘You can’t catch me’ skill) is a more significant trade-off than 20 points in Blood Magic and 10 in Curses. Basically, if a necromancer can’t siphon enough health via their hit volume, they still have a dedicated heal to fall back on. If a thief can’t make it from their siphon, they’re stuck: it’s rarely a good idea to use the active on Signet of Malice.

Comparing a “6” healing skill to traits isn’t really fair, it would be wiser to compare them more to Elementalist Traits, which produce major healing when you roll or go into attunements.

Bas.7406:

Zuer.2814:

Drachshyish.2319:

Guardians got some pretty good escape mechanics… Teleport, some leaps… Wall of “in your face you is not getting through”… All works.

The teleport skills require you to have a target. Usually you’ve exhausted them and they’re on cooldown if you’re already running away. The wall of “in your face you is not getting through” is kind of a joke. It doesn’t last very long at all and it can’t be cast on the move. Most people just walk around it or go through it anyways. :\

All I’m saying is that Guardians and Necromancers are very alike in the escape mechanism department.

What another player with common sense? Shhhh, dont’ tell him other classes have the same issues. He says the necro is the only bad one because he can’t play it well!!! Common sense is not aloud!

Sarcasm aside, you are correct guardians and necro’s are the same things from two different viewpoints. Neither have great avoidance they both fight to outlast the other class. But a good Necro will always beat a good Guardian. They aren’t built to beat us we are the kings of fights that never end.

Actually, a guardian can get infinite vigor with 5 trait points. (tons of avoidance.) and also has access to moves that offer invulnerability, and the ability to clear 3 conditions every 10 seconds, or 2 conditions with 10 points.

Dietzen.6127:

Softspoken.2410:

digiowl.9620:

A heal signet thief chewing omnom will outperform a necromancer using traits…

You’re comparing a dedicated healing skill to a collection of two or three traits, one of which is a Master Minor trait. (Nourishment buffs aren’t really relevant from a class comparison perspective.)

A thief with signet still heals for just as much if not more than a necro with both lifesteal on hit and crit and 50% improvement. That’s 2 traits and a minor trait that a thief can cover with just his heal signet. Ayraswag has a lifesteal vid up on youtube that shows the power of lifesteal of thieves. Seems silly that a thief can lifesteal more efficiently than a necromancer can.

Thieves are a little squishier then necromancers and there healing actually got looked at afterwords, whereas necromancers were mostly just nerfed and left alone.

Life Stealing does not critical…

Cayl Bourne.8073:

Daecollo.9578:

With such long cool-downs and having to channel them, and them being slow channels, it doesn’t really matter if they have a high rate or not.

-Dagger 1 attacks over 3 times per second.
-Axe 2 is on a 6.5 or 8 second CD and attacks over 3.5 times per second.
-Dagger 2 is on a 12 second CD and attacks at 2.6 times per second with healing already built in.
-Even the widely hated for being horrendously slow Axe 1 hits at over 2.6 times per second.

Assuming a 50% crit rate and 100 Siphon Health per hit, you can multiply any of these numbers by 150 to find out how much unmitigated damage they do AND how much healing they provide.

Or how about a 20 second period where you spend 10 seconds in each weapon.
Dagger: Dagger2 x 9 + Dagger1 x 19.5 = 28.5 attacks for 4275 damage/healing
Axe: Axe2 x 16 + Axe1 x 7.33 = 23.33 attacks for 3500 damage/healing
Grand Total: 7775 damage and healing in 20 seconds.

Most #6 heal skills do less healing than this on a longer cooldown and do no damage.

Siphon Health traits have INCREDIBLE potential and I think Rennoko was on the right track by saying that if they healed us while in DS we would be on our way to a really strong attrition build.

BTW: Siphons do about 40 damage per hit/crit right now so the 20 seconds total is 3110 damage/healing. Not too shaby.

But by going Axe or Dagger, you cut the necromancer’s own damage by so much, it may or may not be worth it, and your not taking into account your enemys dodges/buffs as well, YES IF YOUR CONSTANTLY hitting your enemy, you will get that healing, but where in pvp/pve situation where you are just constantly hitting your enemy? NONE.

If you compare that to the elementalist spec regen boon… its 5000 healing every 20 seconds, and thats just one out of 2 of the regenerations they can recieve, on top of there healing for 2-3k when they roll, all there condition cures and there other heals, and there “6” healing ability.

Not only this, Elementalist has vigor/protection as well, which Necromancer does not, necromancers have NOTHING to help there dodges, they are punching bags with no immunity buttons, in a game where a well placed dodge can stop your entire health bar from going under.

Cayl Bourne.8073:

Daecollo.9578:

And giving it a “crap” coefficient, doesn’t help the problem. (its far too weak.)

No matter what stat it scales with it would have to be a “crap” coefficient. The 5% coefficient that bleeds get would mean +50 damage at 1000 of whatever stat. +50 would put you close to (or over if affected by Bloodthirst) the 100 damage/heal per Siphon Health tick. As I showed in my previous post this would put you at a steady 500 dmg/heal per second with spikes up in the 1k range. Add in some sigils and consumables and you are kitten near unkillable.

As long as we have weapons that attack at such a high rate it will be very difficult to buff Siphon Health mechanics.

With such long cool-downs and having to channel them, and them being slow channels, it doesn’t really matter if they have a high rate or not.

Overkillengine.6084:

Just give Lifesteal a crap coefficient like Bleed has and base the damage/health return off of Healing Power. This will help keep it in check because if you stack the hell out of Healing Power to bump up Lifesteal, you had to sacrifice increasing another stat that could have helped your offense or defense.

You could even pre-nerf a little by making the Bloodthirst trait only improve the base value of the siphons.

That would turn “Healing Power” into an offensive stat, because the siphons you have would be much stronger.

And giving it a “crap” coefficient, doesn’t help the problem. (its far too weak.)

Talentless.5708:

sorrow.2364:

Talentless.5708:

No offense, but you need to read better (I’ll leave it to you to find your own mistakes). Furthermore, you need to learn how to play the Necro if you dont think my responses make sense or work. They are proven every day

… by some random guys on a forum with no factual statements backing them up.

I like how you guys think that anyone who wants to highlight the class problems should l2p. Jump down from your “I’m better than you” throne and think about the game balancing, seeing the Necromancer among the other 7 professions and stop kittening about how you play the profession, how anyone else should play the profession and how to play effective like we don’t know.

This isn’t a thread started to discuss on how we should improve our skills, this is a thread about how Necromancer performs compared to other professions. If you want to say anyone how good you are at playing this game, go somewhere else.

I’m sorry, but I will continue to tell people who whine about the Necro as being underpowered to learn how to kittening play. I will not have scrubs who spend more time posting on the forums than learning their class continue efforts to convince Anet to buff something that needs no such buff. If you try to ruin the Necro by getting it buffed, you kitten well better expect push-back from people who dont want that to happen.

We may play the same class, but these forums show we are definitely not in the same class. Arguing that a Necro needs buffs other than a few bug fixes is absolutely absurd.

There are some parts that don’t need touched, and some parts that do need fixed/buffed. (mainly lifetaps that need buffed.) and power and several traits that need fixed.

Deathshroud builds are fine.

Andele.1306:

a) Again life siphoning is direct damage, it ignores armor because it uses the blood of the victim itself (well it should but doesnt for balance reasons on dagger 2 and transfusion), thus Vitality/your hp or if it would be to snowbally Power, condition damage (Curses/Hex skills) doesnt have anything to do with healing and siphoning.
b) Life siphoning can only heal for as much as it deals damage (thus signet of locus would deal 1000~ damage at level 80 to everyone in a area, no special heal part, but instead the damage dealt being added to your hp, same for all other applications).
c) Necro damage overall is less from both from weapon sources and wells, having a capped 100 siphon pre hit doesnt seem like such a problem if the class really is about attrition. Also it is always possible to just, you know change to vampiric only siphons off non crits and vampiric precision changing that so you siphon on crits too.

“Uses blood of the victims..”

But blood IS condition damage. (Bleeding.)

Your saying it uses blood. (which is condition damage.) isn’t that a bit contradicting?

The best way to counter a P/D thief is to ignore him and not fight him

They have no mobility… so…

Too Frisky.9165:

Softspoken.2410:

So anyways, nobody was trying to suggest making life siphon mechanics try and proc off of stacks of bleeding, despite any confusing statements. In light of this, Too Frisky, do you still find Daecollo’s suggested changes too much / too little?

(I’m just worried you’re both getting far afield of your original topics.)

Let me put it this way. He mentions gaining up to 246 health per critical hit but by his wording, suggests that life steal/gain is BASED off of condition damage. The literal interpretation suggests that simply scoring a critical hit at all will grant the Necromancer 246 health. That’s absurd.

Yes, quite absurd, I’d only need to get 100ish (wanting to make this easier!) critical hits to fully heal myself, I can do that in like 2 seconds tops!

Confusing for example, doesn’t tick at all unless the enemy uses an ability.

I have about 25000 Life. (24700ish, but lets just say 25000!)
Healing for 1% (250 heal.) of his life per critical is too overpowered. (currently it heals for 0.15% (37))

Vanthian.9267:

Yes, lets give the class that can already out run anyone under the sun, stealth and walk away from a mob, and anything else a super weapon. While you are at it why not make that skill 5 auto down people? Also, increase the range to 2000. This is a sniper one shot build after all. Also, this is not overpowered, it is a learn to play issue. People need to stop whining and learn to dodge.

it has a 5 second cast, its basicly an all or nothing shot, and the thief would have nothing after firing, if something happend, you would know where he is.

Too Frisky.9165:

I never said you said life steal triggered off DoTs. However you stated at the opening of the thread that you "have two ideas on the table, one of them improves the numbers, and one of them improves stealing life based on condition damage.

You then say that Life Stealing does not proc off of condition damage…so why even make that statement?

As I said.. NUMEROUS.. NUMEROUS times in this post… and i’m getting angry repeating it.

Life Stealing is like condition damage, isn’t effected by armor, or damage reduction, or anything, if I steal 35 life from the trait, it will take 35 life, it won’t be mitigation by anything. (Just like DoTs.)

Necromancers are the masters of condition damage, almost all necromancer builds revolve around the precision tree. (condition damage tree.)

Actually, its 21 for 1% Critical chance until you reach about 60%, then it becomes 16.
My necromancer has 2670 Armor (Defense+Toughness.), 1350ish Condition Damage, 60% Critical Chance.

Barbed Precision is quite powerful, you best not underestimate it, especially when combined with wells and Fury, I can get 80% Critical Chance.

It “does not” trigger off dots… its kind of foolish to flame someone by copying what they say.

DO YOU READ WHAT YOU POST!?!

Brutalistik.6473:

I don’t know how to beat one. I need help with this so I can finally learn how to counter one.

Heres how you counter a P/D Thief, press esc and “rush” away with your greatsword. (make sure to have swiftness.)

You will win every encounter.

MrForz.1953:

Warriors are all around soldiers, they handle weapons, that’s what they’re about.

There is a difference between wanting variety, and just looking to get this or that weapon (For whatever fantasy) and the class not being able to use it. That suggestion is just downright stupid, irrationnal, egotistical and whiny while going at the reverse of everything a Thief is supposed to be, with toys and mechanics you shouldn’t even attempt to tamper with.

Then can you offer me a better suggestion?

Too Frisky.9165:

Daecollo.9578:

Too Frisky.9165:

Daecollo.9578:

I have two ideas on the table, one of them improves the numbers, and one of them improves stealing life based on condition damage.

Vampiric Precision.
At level 80, grants about 164 health per critical hit or 246 health with the trait Bloodthirst.

Vampiric
Heals for 164 HP at level 80 or 246 HP with the Bloodthirst trait.

Vampiric Rituals
At level 80, heals the player for 164 health per enemy affected (up to five targets), per pulse, per well. Unaffected by Healing Power.

(This is now effected by Bloodthirst, and heals for 246 per pulse.)

Necromancers have no Mobility, they cannot run away like other classes and healing power does not even effect most of our traits, we deserve to have good sustain. (as the class says we should.) but its stupid that we don’t have nearly the healing we deserve to have.

No offense but I’m just going to go ahead and break your suggestion here. Vampiric Precision grants 164 health per critical hit or 246 if you take Bloodthirst? I can now feasibly and safely stack a 60% critical chance while ignoring critical damage because, who needs critical damage when my ticks are going to heal me for 246 health a pop.

Now I’m going to go into combat, with my PVT build and easily put about 10 stacks of bleed on an opponent and at 60% critical chance it’s likely that 6 of my stacks will give me a critical hit and thus, provide me with 246 health per tick. That’s 1476 health a second and keep in mind it is statistically possible for all my ticks to critical and give me 2460 health a second. This isn’t including my potential extra bleed stacks and poison ticks. It’s mathematically feasible for me to heal for about 4k a second. Meanwhile, I have Well of Blood, so I can be an immobile fortress and heal for 5240 instantly while receiving extra health ticks.

The worse part about this whole example is that I didn’t even account for Healing Power, basic attack critical hits, or even slotting Superior Sigil of Blood in all my weapons.

tl;dr

Stop begging for the ability to be an undying Necromancer when you already have the potential to do so; it’s called Toughness and Vitality.

If you played a necromancer, you would know the traits are not effected by any stats.

Not everyone wishes to be a 30 point deathshroud necromancer, some of us want to be different, you have to have builds for us as well, or you kill the entire point of the class.

Life-stealing does NOT critical…

Life-stealing isn’t effected by power or healing power…

Lol…

…. It also does not trigger off dots…

Life steal doesn’t trigger off of DoTs? Then why on earth would you suggest a build focused on stealing health based on condition damage? You’ve immediately contradicted yourself. I play a Necromancer. I wasn’t referring to Life Steal anyways. You stated that getting a critical hit would grant health and DoTs can critical hit.

I have two ideas on the table, one of them improves the numbers, and one of them improves stealing life based on condition damage.

Vampiric Precision.
At level 80, grants about 164 health per critical hit or 246 health with the trait Bloodthirst.

I feel like a student correcting a professor who has no idea as to what he is talking about.

Which sentence did I say dot’s crit and life steal triggered off dots?

Most Condition Necromancers run “Precision, Condition Damage, Toughness” as there primary stats. (Because of getting bleeds off critical.)

The reason I stated condition damage, is because necromancers are mostly based off conditions, and life stealing doesn’t “feel” like healing, more like your taking the life away from something.

Like Condition Damage, Life Steal damage ignores armor, so making it based off power wouldn’t work, since it ignores armor.

Life Stealing works on Vitality, because your basicly stealing life.
Life Stealing works on Healing Power, because … your healing? (technically, your not healing, your taking the life from someone else…)

Necromancer does not get endurance boosters, endurance regeneration, vigor or any boon that helps them avoid damage, they mostly have to eat it, therefore they should have healing on par with guardians and elementalist, which have superior mobility and dodges.

A life stealing necromancer would have atleast 20 points in Vitality, and 30 points into conditions for the critical (since we lack fury as well.), this leaves little points left to go into death shroud to make it the “uber health bar.” you speak of, most necromancers would put those 20 points into toughness.

Too Frisky.9165:

Daecollo.9578:

I have two ideas on the table, one of them improves the numbers, and one of them improves stealing life based on condition damage.

Vampiric Precision.
At level 80, grants about 164 health per critical hit or 246 health with the trait Bloodthirst.

Vampiric
Heals for 164 HP at level 80 or 246 HP with the Bloodthirst trait.

Vampiric Rituals
At level 80, heals the player for 164 health per enemy affected (up to five targets), per pulse, per well. Unaffected by Healing Power.

(This is now effected by Bloodthirst, and heals for 246 per pulse.)

Necromancers have no Mobility, they cannot run away like other classes and healing power does not even effect most of our traits, we deserve to have good sustain. (as the class says we should.) but its stupid that we don’t have nearly the healing we deserve to have.

No offense but I’m just going to go ahead and break your suggestion here. Vampiric Precision grants 164 health per critical hit or 246 if you take Bloodthirst? I can now feasibly and safely stack a 60% critical chance while ignoring critical damage because, who needs critical damage when my ticks are going to heal me for 246 health a pop.

Now I’m going to go into combat, with my PVT build and easily put about 10 stacks of bleed on an opponent and at 60% critical chance it’s likely that 6 of my stacks will give me a critical hit and thus, provide me with 246 health per tick. That’s 1476 health a second and keep in mind it is statistically possible for all my ticks to critical and give me 2460 health a second. This isn’t including my potential extra bleed stacks and poison ticks. It’s mathematically feasible for me to heal for about 4k a second. Meanwhile, I have Well of Blood, so I can be an immobile fortress and heal for 5240 instantly while receiving extra health ticks.

The worse part about this whole example is that I didn’t even account for Healing Power, basic attack critical hits, or even slotting Superior Sigil of Blood in all my weapons.

tl;dr

Stop begging for the ability to be an undying Necromancer when you already have the potential to do so; it’s called Toughness and Vitality.

If you played a necromancer, you would know the traits are not effected by any stats.

Not everyone wishes to be a 30 point deathshroud necromancer, some of us want to be different, you have to have builds for us as well, or you kill the entire point of the class.

Life-stealing does NOT critical…

Life-stealing isn’t effected by power or healing power…

Lol…

…. It also does not trigger off dots…

I feel like a teacher writing marks off a students paper…

MrForz.1953:

Mid range, based around the Steal mechanic, deadly duelist, arcobatics, yes, lets give them a sniper rifle.
You’re upset that they don’t have what Warriors actually have or something?

Thanks for your feedback, its very informative and suggests a lot of ideas to improve the idea.

Long and short Range, based around adrenaline (An adrenaline rush causes the muscles to perform respiration at an increased rate improving strength.), Heavy Armor, lets give them a sniper rifle!

Rayya.2591:

so you want 1200 range weapon , and stealth on weapon skill
please post your counter for this weapon also

All Shields in the game, reflection walls, aegis, aoe damage.

TC WILL NEVER GIVE UP UNTIL WE CROSS THE BLACK GATE!!

Iavra.8510:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shocking_Aura
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Burning_Speed

No, you are using a scepter in mainhand.

My Elite

…transformes you into a Snow Leopard and you used it to catch the enemy.

RtL also has 15 sec CD. It IS really low, but that ele is a full glascannon while also having one of the lowest healthpool in the game. Even a full bunker char would kill him before he can use it again.

Protection, Swiftness, lots of Mobility moves that improve ARMOR, you have a much better chance to escape then a thief, thieves can’t really stealth and run away, they have to be in melee range to cloak and dagger, initiative recharges really slow as well.

Thief has Shadow Step, and Short bow, but they don’t have swiftness, after you get rid of that, you pretty much are on foot, less you have the utility to stealth. (But then you wouldn’t beable to perform your one hit combo.)…

With the Dagger Dagger, you could of been rooted, but with Scepter/Dagger, you have a lot more condition removal, access to additional armor, which goes well with protection.

Let me re-do this.

For getting away as Scepter+Dagger.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blinding_Flash
Switch to fire attunement.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Phoenix, while dodging, also cures a condition, after use your heal.
Switch to earth attunement.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Glyph_of_Elemental_Harmony
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rock_Barrier (+250 Toughness.)
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dust_Devil
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Earthquake
Switch to water attunement.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Frost_Aura
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cleansing_Wave
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Water_Trident
Switch back to Air Attunement.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ride_the_Lightning

I think this is easier then D/D

Lokheit.7943:

I’m sorry but we’re not mesmers. Their clones are cool and fancy, but it’s a Mesmer thing, not ours.

Our Thieves are like the Charr summon: buddies from our gang that we can call for help, and for the sake of game mechanics you can summon them.

Thief may use denial magic (in fact it’s not sure, Assassins used it, it isn’t stated that the Thieves use it), but as you said Mesmer are the mind specialists, and the clones are illusions, not summons, they’re supposedly only on people minds, not in the physical world (that’s why they’re so fragile).

So Thief basically shouldn’t be able to use clones. It would be like a Ranger using Death Shroud. No matter if we’re jelly of their tricky clones and their fancy effects, it’s a Mesmer thing and if you want clones you can always have an alt character.

Some other observations, sorry for the negativism here:

The stealth skill doesn’t break stealth as it doesn’t attack, which means infinite teleports and swiftness gain? 15 second of swiftness spammed during all the 10 seconds given by SR it’s an insane ton of swiftness. If it’s an attack then it’s different but 15 second swiftness is overkill for a skill of this nature.

Also half your skills stealth you, and one of them does it for 24H, so you could easily maintain swiftness and even if 5 roots you, you could map travel stealthed with the stealth skill (even if it’s an attack you could aim it at thin air just to get the teleport and swiftness, with pracitce players would be able to travel with it as shadow steps ignore rooting effects.

The snipper idea you had in mind is interesting, but the way all those proposed skill melt with each other isn’t as convincing IMHO.

Camouflage isn’t stealth, it doesn’t activate any stealth skills.
Camouflage isn’t effected by stealth traits.
Camouflage breaks on damage.
Camouflage breaks when an enemy gets too close.
Camouflage breaks when you move.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ash_Legion_Spy_Kit

The swiftness could work like Shadow Protector does, and only give you swiftness if you don’t have the boon “swiftness.”, that way it could only be used as a retreat.

Andele.1306:

Daecollo.9578:

Besides increasing the heals, stealing life ignores armor, so why not make it be effected by “Condition Damage.”, since its pretty much conditional damage?

No… as lore states the amount of power a necromancer can siphon from enemies is proportional to how adept he is at blood and life (force) manipulation. Thus either power or vitality.

Should be vitality then.

Auesis.7301:

I’d also like to add that I’d only be in favour of this if when using Camouflage, your character prones on the ground and lays the rifle out in front of them. That would be sweet.

Well, that would be cool as heck, nice idea, it does root you!

MrChucklebunns.7609:

The point of cultural amor is to represent that races culture (Im assuming). If everyone could where it that would defeat the purpose enterely.

So, if I went and wore a Japanese Kimono around (when i’m not Japanese), it would kill the point of it?

No, many people like it when others embrace there culture.

exocet.6308:

I’m against this idea. Everyone would just go buy the Charr T3 cultural set (joke).

In all seriousness, the cultural armour sets give each race a more unique feel. The dungeon sets are bland enough already. Everyone I run into and their mothers are wearing CoF dungeon set.

Making cultural sets available to all races is a terrible idea.

Actually its because CoF is by far the easiest dungeon…

Would love it if they added Capes to Marketplace!

A single cape you could color/dye

Basicly, its not worth it, just get signet of shadows.

bhagwad.4281:

Daecollo.9578:

bhagwad.4281:

Daecollo.9578:

Well, heres the deal, I said “Play a Guardian” if you don’t have the skill to be bursted down as another class, its a soft fix.

Again, you’re being a jerk and deliberately unhelpful. Please tell me how a “skillful” mesmer would counter a burst that starts 100% from stealth?
.
.
.
crickets

I still believe though that you might have some useful insights. If I can only pry them out of you. But it takes two to have a meaningful discussion. I did my best.

Using a Staff, pressing ‘2’ when he hears the stealth noise.

Fail. Either deliberately dense or didn’t read anything. We’re talking about never hearing anything. We’re talking about thinking you’re alone one moment and down on the ground the next.

Your first mistake was assuming your alone, never assume your alone in pvp.

bhagwad.4281:

Daecollo.9578:

Well, heres the deal, I said “Play a Guardian” if you don’t have the skill to be bursted down as another class, its a soft fix.

Again, you’re being a jerk and deliberately unhelpful. Please tell me how a “skillful” mesmer would counter a burst that starts 100% from stealth?
.
.
.
crickets

I still believe though that you might have some useful insights. If I can only pry them out of you. But it takes two to have a meaningful discussion. I did my best.

Using a Staff, pressing ‘2’ when he hears the stealth noise.

bhagwad.4281:

Daecollo.9578:

Its called Aegis and Virtue of Courage, if you don’t like thieves, maybe you should play Guardian? It has a low skill cap and a lot of there skills are well rounded to be against burst.

Mesmer however is not, and takes a much higher skill cap.

Lol. I don’t think you need to say anything more. Your solution to not being bursted from stealth is to play a guardian.

QED.

PS. Everyone has something meaningful to contribute. I’m sure you do too. So why are you acting like a jerk?

Well, heres the deal, I said “Play a Guardian” if you don’t have the skill to be bursted down as another class, its a soft fix.

bhagwad.4281:

Daecollo.9578:

The counter is block, aegis, death shroud, stun removal, teleport…

There is also bunkering, and many other things you can do.

You could also ltp, but that may require more thought and skill.

Umm…“Block” 100% of the time just in case a thief is lurking? Stun removal when you need reflex times of 0.5 seconds?

Don’t bullkitten me and troll. Instead, why don’t you meaningfully contribute to this discussion?

Its called Aegis and Virtue of Courage, if you don’t like thieves, maybe you should play Guardian? It has a low skill cap and a lot of there skills are well rounded to be against burst.

Mesmer however is not, and takes a much higher skill cap.

http://www.guildhead.com/skill-calc#mccozcM9MmGRvmMGRTm0xxa0MaqVsqM

Here is a build I threw together, now you will have no problem against burst thieves, your welcome.

bhagwad.4281:

Eduardo.4675:

bhagwad.4281:

Eduardo.4675:

Yes, he is completely full glass, and then he is surprised… whats more ridiculous, he insists that “i didnt know he was there”, which means lack of awareness. This kind of inflamatory anti class posts freak me out.

Facts are facts. Whether it’s anti class is entirely upto you. I didn’t put that spin on it. You did.

When you arrive at a point and see no one, and the next second you’re on the ground, I challenge you to tell me what kind of awareness you’re talking about?

Don’t defend the indefensible.

Dude, if you wanna make a stand that a thief should not do 7k dmg with steal and 14k with backstab, go ahead, im not stoping you, in fact im in favor of reducing some skill modifiers: BS down from 2.4 to 2.0, and most importantly, heartseeker should only have 2 states, not 3, with the second one starting at less than 66% HP and reducing the skill modifier from 2.0 (almost the same as a perfect BS) to 1.6. Im a thief, with all my heart, but i understand that ppl are revolted with “cheeselers”, so be it. It would be a way to separate the wheat from the chaff. However, you cannot lie. If you do so, and i see the post, ill post back. Im very familiar with #s, and i know when ppl lie about their stats. This post climbed on a lie to gain strenght, and that is not fair.
My 2 cents.

Edit: you dont know how to read the stats panel. A mesmer has 916 tufness base and 920 defense base. Thas a total of 1836, not 2800. You are adding the base tufness on the left with the TOTAL armor on the right. Hence, you lied, either intentionally or by lack of knowledge. In both ways, it doesnt make you look pretty. And you still try to defend you defenseless point.

I have NO problems with 7k or even 14k damage. BUT, everything has (or should have) a counter. As a mesmer, my damage is possible only when the conditions are right. There are plenty of situations when it’s just not possible and I have to run.

I also have no issues being screwed by a skilled player. It’s happened lots of times. Sometimes by thieves themselves. It always sucks naturally but it’s fair. I replay the match (I record them), see what I did wrong, , see what the other person did to me and how I can counter it the next time.

My problem with this particular combo from stealth is that there is no counter. It’s understandable if the thief was there, then vanished and I start dodging around to avoid a backstab, the thief is good and skillful so lands it anyway and this happens a couple of times and I die. That’s ok. That’s a fair fight. That’s something I can improve on and learn to play better.

But to START a combo from stealth with NO chance of counterattack, with NO chance to use a stunbreaker….I have HUGE problems with that. Because it doesn’t have a counter. There’s nothing I can do about it. I can’t say “Next time I’ll try xyz….”

No. This is just wrong. Glass cannon or not, it should require skill to turn out that kind of damage on anyone.

The counter is block, aegis, death shroud, stun removal, teleport…

There is also bunkering, and many other things you can do.

You could also ltp, but that may require more thought and skill.

Jester.1236:

Is there anyway for thieves to get 100% swiftness uptime? Yes i know about the 25 % signet. I’m asking about swiftness.

If your willing to sacrifice your endurance/and your healing ability, and your runes, yes.

Undeadkemea.4865:

I don’t see them as clones but as people that aid you :P Maybe I didn’t read everything there is to thieves and that the thieves guild is a clone/phantasm thing, but I really thought they were real people you summoned.
That’s why I think the clone name isn’t all that fitting

Thieves Guild and Shadow Trap is kind of more a game thing then a lore thing.

Undeadkemea.4865:

I like everything so far but the shadow clone skill. Aren’t clone-like things for the mesmer profession in the game? Perhaps make it into one of the thief npc thingies like thieves guild? A new type of NPC would have to be created for the skill ofcourse, but I think that would be more like the thief’s other skills.

Also having the Rifle thief, ambus thief and 2 from thieves guild….rrrrr :P

Well, Mesmers and Thieves LORE wise use the same type of magic, thieves are just more shadow magic, while mesmers are mind magic.

But this is why Mesmers can stealth and teleport, they have denial magic, but shadow magic is also denial magic.

So, a thief can create clones using denial magic, but they wouldn’t be as good as mesmer clones, as mesmer stealth isn’t as good as thieves stealth.

As long as they give thieves longer boons (double the duration of boons.), Sword Traits, Shadow Clones, Confusion, and more Condition Removal, more regeneration, more fury, higher initiative regeneration, better survivability, better group support.

They can nerf the burst.

Kali.6209:

I literally attempted to do this but I was unable to transmute the hood from my lvl1 thief to another hood

Try a white item, and a non-80 item.

Eduardo.4675:

As all can see now, the OP lied. He has 1836 armor, not 2800. I was right. To achieve 2800 armor, he needs 964 tufness, as I said above. I knew he was lying. Thats why i said all that about amulets. And appears as though i know quite a lot, mesmer. You, on the other hand, know nothing.
Edit: daecollo, when i made that post, i didnt see the second screenie.

The funny thing is, he has 0 points in toughness/vitality, hes full glass cannon.

Eduardo.4675:

If he is using the beserker amulet, there is no way for him to get 2800 armor. It just doesnt make sense, 17K HP and 2.8K armor on a mesmer. In the same build. Even if he used shaman jewel and tufness runes to go with the beserker, and added 300 from traits, he would only get 2.4K armor. He stated 2.8K armor. Its there in the OP. So, I ask: what buld is that? and what amulet? valkirye? rabid? cleric?

You can clearly see hes using the berserker’s amulet. Lol.

bhagwad.4281:

Daecollo.9578:

bhagwad.4281:

Eduardo.4675:

OP, I dont believe you a single bit. Im almost sure you are lying. The only way a mesmer achieves 2800 armor is by adding 964 tufness, and im pretty sure there is no build out there (on a mesmer) that recommends adding 1K tufness. If you have a build with shaman amulet on a mesmer, thats a very weird build, and in that case i dont believe you know how to fight thieves. You would need 300 points from traits + amulet and jewel with tufness as secondary stat to achive 2780 armor, which is still 20 tufness shy of 2800. So, what do you have to say?

Doesn’t matter if you disbelieve me. I just added another screenshot with my hero stats.

Looks like your wearing the berserker’s amulet… you have 900 toughness… and your a cloth wearer, so weakest base defense…

It doesn’t justify instant down from full health when I thought I was alone. I’ve attached my hero stats.

It does, your a squishy DPS, you have “NO POINTS IN THE TOUGHNESS OR VITALITY TREE.” you have “THE DPS AMULET.”

All your traits are for damage, and your reaction speed is terrible.

You deserved being one shot, sorry.