Guild Wars 2

Lighter.5631:

Daecollo.9578:

Lighter.5631:

Daecollo.9578:

Lighter.5631:

Daecollo.9578:

Redscope.6215:

Daecollo.9578:

HannaDeFreitas.4236:

Well to be honest healing up to 17k over 3.5s on a Warrior was pretty OP.

It was, which is why it should of had a limit to how much it could heal per second, not an internal CD.

A cooldown is a limit on its healing per second. Take the healing proc over the seconds of cooldown time. That’s your maximum heal/sec.

Not really, “You can only have 8 heals a second.” instead of an Internal Cooldown doesn’t nerf things as badly.

It leaves almost all the non-overpowered things viable and nerfs whirling axes and other OP things a bit.

What do you mean by not really, a CD is a limit on how much heal you can get per second…

AN internal cooldown…limits how many times you can get the proc off an aoe… which is bad.

…Your " You can only have 8 heal per second" will also affect AoEs….

Which is good for Melee cleaving.

Also, its a “2-second internal cooldown.” time to sell all the pies.

What does it change? They will just make it “You can only have 4 heal per second” if they go with your way….

It makes a lot of things viable that way without completely destroying it like they did.

Lighter.5631:

Daecollo.9578:

Lighter.5631:

Daecollo.9578:

Redscope.6215:

Daecollo.9578:

HannaDeFreitas.4236:

Well to be honest healing up to 17k over 3.5s on a Warrior was pretty OP.

It was, which is why it should of had a limit to how much it could heal per second, not an internal CD.

A cooldown is a limit on its healing per second. Take the healing proc over the seconds of cooldown time. That’s your maximum heal/sec.

Not really, “You can only have 8 heals a second.” instead of an Internal Cooldown doesn’t nerf things as badly.

It leaves almost all the non-overpowered things viable and nerfs whirling axes and other OP things a bit.

What do you mean by not really, a CD is a limit on how much heal you can get per second…

AN internal cooldown…limits how many times you can get the proc off an aoe… which is bad.

…Your " You can only have 8 heal per second" will also affect AoEs….

Which is good for Melee cleaving.

Also, its a “2-second internal cooldown.” time to sell all the pies.

Lighter.5631:

Daecollo.9578:

Redscope.6215:

Daecollo.9578:

HannaDeFreitas.4236:

Well to be honest healing up to 17k over 3.5s on a Warrior was pretty OP.

It was, which is why it should of had a limit to how much it could heal per second, not an internal CD.

A cooldown is a limit on its healing per second. Take the healing proc over the seconds of cooldown time. That’s your maximum heal/sec.

Not really, “You can only have 8 heals a second.” instead of an Internal Cooldown doesn’t nerf things as badly.

It leaves almost all the non-overpowered things viable and nerfs whirling axes and other OP things a bit.

What do you mean by not really, a CD is a limit on how much heal you can get per second…

AN internal cooldown…limits how many times you can get the proc off an aoe… which is bad.

Redscope.6215:

Daecollo.9578:

HannaDeFreitas.4236:

Well to be honest healing up to 17k over 3.5s on a Warrior was pretty OP.

It was, which is why it should of had a limit to how much it could heal per second, not an internal CD.

A cooldown is a limit on its healing per second. Take the healing proc over the seconds of cooldown time. That’s your maximum heal/sec.

Not really, “You can only have 8 heals a second.” instead of an Internal Cooldown doesn’t nerf things as badly.

It leaves almost all the non-overpowered things viable and nerfs whirling axes and other OP things a bit.

Lighter.5631:

Daecollo.9578:

HannaDeFreitas.4236:

Well to be honest healing up to 17k over 3.5s on a Warrior was pretty OP.

It was, which is why it should of had a limit to how much it could heal per second, not an internal CD.

it’s basicly the same thing

Not really, “You can only have 8 heals a second.” instead of an Internal Cooldown doesn’t nerf things as badly.

ensoriki.5789:

Daecollo.9578:

Rayya.2591:

the food nerf affect thief less then other classes
even if i used omnombery ghosts all the time, our aoe was very limtied compared to other classes

It broke two viable builds.

S/P Acrobatic Vampire Thief.
P/P Acrobatic Vampire Thief.

Garbage.

Pretty much now! Backstab and P/D Thief for me.

HannaDeFreitas.4236:

Well to be honest healing up to 17k over 3.5s on a Warrior was pretty OP.

It was, which is why it should of had a limit to how much it could heal per second, not an internal CD.

Maugetarr.6823:

Daecollo.9578:

Maugetarr.6823:

To me, if a build wasn’t viable without temporary buffs then it wasn’t really a viable build in the first place.

30 minute Buffs with no recast isn’t a temporary buff.

I will rephrase then to consumable buffs.

I’m sorry, but when you make builds you build them around all available means, not just traits, but weapons/food/traits everything.

If you don’t or can’t understand that, then you shouldn’t try to.

Fiontar.4695:

Glad I’m not the only one. I already was running a pretty tanky build, but needed the food to be able to melee in dungeons with my Warrior. Even with the food, reliance on ranged was heavy, but at least I could occasionally switch to melee, do an alpha strike and survive well enough to make the risk worthwhile.

I’m good at kiting with the bow, but if I wanted to run a kiting build in dungeons, I would have gone with a Ranger or Shortbow/pistol-pistol Thief!

This is what is known as a “ham handed nerf” and it’s the type that can kill a game. If you look just at the food, it was disproportionate in what it could provide. However, in the big picture it was a hugely important band-aid that compensated for the lack of the developers ability to provide viable melee dungeon builds for Warriors. (There are also builds from every profession, in a game where the developers have admitted there are currently far too few viable end game builds for most professions, that are rendered non-viable by this change. It’s not just Warriors).

You don’t nerf something this big with out designing offsets to allow viable build variety while eliminating the abuse (whirling axe warriors I-win button).

If it had a 0.25 internal cooldown, it could take down the abuse (Whirling Axe/Dagger Storm.) and fix some of the builds without breaking them.

Of course, its going to have a 2 second one, and break it completely.

Maugetarr.6823:

To me, if a build wasn’t viable without temporary buffs then it wasn’t really a viable build in the first place.

30 minute Buffs with no recast isn’t a temporary buff.

Rayya.2591:

Daecollo.9578:

Rayya.2591:

Oglaf.1074:

maddoctor.2738:

Oglaf.1074:

maddoctor.2738:

Maybe those zerker warriors will finally “lose” some of their OPness now. Nerfing them without nerfing their skills, nice job.

Yeah a blanket nerf across the board which nerfs all Professions in order to combat one overpowered build for one Profession.

That’s some NASA-grade rocket science right there!

So you don’t believe that the buff from the pies was kinda overpowered?

It was a necessary evil to allow any Profession that doesn’t have the amazing sustain of Guardian to melee in dungeons.

it was cool for warrior, it was lool for thieves.
Combined with signet of malice i could get from 500 hp to 17k in less that 3 seconds using dagger storm, betwen 15 dredges on lvl 20 fractals

Dagger Storm has a 90 second cool-down.

that does not change the fact that i could do that

Whirling Axe has a lower CD (by twice.) and had 1200 range, and hit 15×5 targets, a lot more then Dagger Storm.

snacktime.1082:

Oh no I copied this build from someone and now it’s been nerfed, and I need someone to give me another build because I can’t go out and come up with one on my own!

I swear, people just expect things to be handed to them just for showing up.

Many many builds besides Whirling Axes were nerfed to the ground, from every class.

Redscope.6215:

Oglaf.1074:

Redscope.6215:

Oglaf.1074:

“Food items that give special bonuses upon a critical hit now have an internal cooldown before they can produce the special bonus again.”

This could potentially mean that Omnomberry Pies/Ghosts will be nerfed quite a bit. All speculation on my part, of course. This would prove devastating to certain ’zerker builds, as it is what keeps them alive.

It means all the fools who thought that the “Whirling Axes” and “Omnomberry Pie” combo was going to stay around forever just got a nice dose of balance changes.

Its probably a 1sec cooldown that won’t effect most builds outside of the one mentioned above.

Sorry guys, I won’t say “I told you so” because I never made a post on the subject…but I’ve been reading the warrior forums about the axe builds lately thinking: “These guys are going to flip when they nerf ‘on-crit’ food…”

As Stewie Griffon would say: “Well, go on! … Start flipping!”

Now hold your horses, mate. I’ve been a Hammer Warrior for ages, and Pies have been a staple ingredient in my PvE build forever. They essentially removed a lot of Warrior sustainability, for what? Warriors did not get anything resembling a tankyness buff this patch. Warrior sustain is horrible as it is. Us other Warriors sorta needed this, only ’zerker Warriors abused it.

A lot of people use omnomberry food. It would essentially turn any multi-hit channel skill into a massive heal. This wasn’t a warrior-specific issue.

What you’re seeing here is a change due to high-crit builds’ ability to utilize crit healing food as an unbalanced offset to their lack of defesive capabilities. The cooldown, as I’ve said, is probably a measly 1 second. In most cases, you won’t notice it. As a hammer warrior, how often do you hit more than once per second?

Now if its a 2-3 second cooldown, the food will become nearly useless for any build of any class.

Hammer Warriors had a lot of AOE attacks that could hit many targets.

Rayya.2591:

the food nerf affect thief less then other classes
even if i used omnombery ghosts all the time, our aoe was very limtied compared to other classes

It broke two viable builds.

S/P Acrobatic Vampire Thief.
P/P Acrobatic Vampire Thief.

Rayya.2591:

Oglaf.1074:

maddoctor.2738:

Oglaf.1074:

maddoctor.2738:

Maybe those zerker warriors will finally “lose” some of their OPness now. Nerfing them without nerfing their skills, nice job.

Yeah a blanket nerf across the board which nerfs all Professions in order to combat one overpowered build for one Profession.

That’s some NASA-grade rocket science right there!

So you don’t believe that the buff from the pies was kinda overpowered?

It was a necessary evil to allow any Profession that doesn’t have the amazing sustain of Guardian to melee in dungeons.

it was cool for warrior, it was lool for thieves.
Combined with signet of malice i could get from 500 hp to 17k in less that 3 seconds using dagger storm, betwen 15 dredges on lvl 20 fractals

Dagger Storm has a 90 second cool-down.

TooBz.3065:

maddoctor.2738:

Maybe those zerker warriors will finally “lose” some of their OPness now. Nerfing them without nerfing their skills, nice job.

My warrior uses a knights armor set. When I run a dungeon EVERYTHING aggros on me. The food was useful/vital to staying alive.

Yep.

OnionXI.6735:

Even in mostly/full toughness gear on my guardian and warrior omnomberry pies have been invaluable for being able to actually melee.

Learn to Rifle! Developers don’t like Melee, or Warriors.

Xavori.3768:

My full zerker warrior does just fine without silly heal to full food. Then again, I’m not the cookie cutter greatsword hundred blade zerker. I’m a 70% boon duration sword/axe giant asura zerker warrior

Also, she’s cute as a button and the way her head flops around after whirlwind never fails to crack me up.

- The last thing he said.

ensoriki.5789:

“S/P No longer viable”
“Going to backstab”
Don’t backfoot on your words now Daecollo.
I’ll have to start screen printing them to a shirt.

What did you think would happen if they removed viable builds? everyone will eventually be the same.

Oglaf.1074:

Kumu Honua.2751:

Daecollo.9578:

Oglaf.1074:

Mad Rasputin.7809:

Warriors can’t survive now? Really?

I believe that is an overstatement and maybe a certain niche of warriors (full zerker warriors) will have a harder time surviving but certainly not all warriors as a whole.

Yes, yes we will. Warrior sustain is horrible. Getting hit by random cleave from melee mobs will be a lot worse.

I guess warriors have to all go rifle now, Melee will be horrible without the sustain they had before.

Or they could….you know….wear some toughness gear. Guess us Guardians will just have to carry warriors more than ever. (Note, Sarcasm meters should be blowing up now.)

I’m wearing Knight’s.

All the Toughness/Vitality in the world will not help you as a Warrior because you do not have the awesome sustain of a Guardian.

33% Protection, 15% Damage Reduction Signet, Heal whenever you get a boon.

Oglaf.1074:

Mad Rasputin.7809:

Warriors can’t survive now? Really?

I believe that is an overstatement and maybe a certain niche of warriors (full zerker warriors) will have a harder time surviving but certainly not all warriors as a whole.

Yes, yes we will. Warrior sustain is horrible. Getting hit by random cleave from melee mobs will be a lot worse.

I guess warriors have to all go rifle now, Melee will be horrible without the sustain they had before.

Koga.7215:

if it ends up being a 1/2sec cooldown, essentially making it so you can only get 1 heal per attack (few from channeled skilled like PW) essentially making it so you can not AoE spam yourself to full health in large packs of trash or in zergs in WvW then I am ok with the change, still viable for most situations (bosses). Remove its OP in AoE spam situations and the food is fine.

if it is any more than 2seconds I realy ask if any testing is done whatsoever..

also, for those it will make them give attention to those other builds for next month.. if they make this type of change, they need the other adjustment today also, not next month. many will stop playing for the month if its that bad and potentially never come back.

Its made 1-2 builds of each class no longer viable.

ensoriki.5789:

Daecollo.9578:

Food items that give special bonuses upon a critical hit now have an internal cooldown before they can produce the special bonus again.

S/P is no longer viable in WvWvW, Going to go backstab now like all the other thieves since I can’t survive without stealth.

Lol if you leave a sword for something as small as this.
Then peace.

Lol. I don’t think you understood my meaning, I said Pistol Whip.

Leo G.4501:

Daecollo.9578:

Leo G.4501:

It was overpowered.

There, someone said it. Good thing I started weening myself off of pie lately. There’s lots of good food out there.

Like what?

Some defensive foods to help sustain under conditions, remove them or dodge more.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bowl_of_Lemongrass_Poultry_Soup
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bowl_of_Orrian_Truffle_and_Meat_Stew
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bowl_of_Saffron-scented_Poultry_Soup

Great for condition users or to eek out another second from your immobilizes
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rare_Veggie_Pizza

Good for offensive focused characters.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bowl_of_Curry_Butternut_Squash_Soup
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Plate_of_Truffle_Steak_Dinner

Offense and mobility
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bowl_of_Seaweed_Salad

Of course, you can still use omnomberry pie, I’d just imagine it wouldn’t let you refill your health with 1 move.

Lol, of course I could just reroll guardian and abuse that other food.

Fiontar.4695:

Yeah. Anyone have suggestions on respeccing and regearing crit warriors in the least painful way possible? Need my last dungeon run for the monthly with our guild group tonight and my Warrior is suddenly non-viable in current form.

Going to have to reroll to Guardian.

When fun things like this are nerfed, it makes people leave the game, and the fact they didn’t even ask the players there opinion on the nerf shows that they don’t really listen to what the players like.

TooBz.3065:

Oldgrimm.8521:

Rising Dusk.2408:

Daecollo.9578:

Yep, I can’t really play my Pistol Whip thief anymore, now I “MUST” go stealth critical copy cutter thief.

That may be true, but this is a good fix that was definitely long overdue regardless of its side effects. Hopefully now that you can’t use those builds as effectively will be a signal for ANet as to what to buff in the next patch. They’ve already said that they buff things based on usage, so something going completely unused is a definite signal for them to fix it up.

My only question is: What is the internal cooldown?

i guess and hope its 2 secs at least like sigil of blood

Stealing 325 health every 2 seconds is not useful for anyone. It essentially makes the food useless.

Yep, might as well use the 10% Critical Damage food.

Worthless build, no longer viable.

Oldgrimm.8521:

Rising Dusk.2408:

Daecollo.9578:

Yep, I can’t really play my Pistol Whip thief anymore, now I “MUST” go stealth critical copy cutter thief.

That may be true, but this is a good fix that was definitely long overdue regardless of its side effects. Hopefully now that you can’t use those builds as effectively will be a signal for ANet as to what to buff in the next patch. They’ve already said that they buff things based on usage, so something going completely unused is a definite signal for them to fix it up.

My only question is: What is the internal cooldown?

i guess and hope its 2 secs at least like sigil of blood

it only does 4% of what it did before in most builds, thats a 96% nerf.

Gwalchgwn.1659:

I run S/P combined with D/D succesfully in WvWvW and I never eat food (mostly because I always forget to eat)?

S/P is great against any melee class or for soloing supply camps. Also, with a fellow thief, you are really annoying against any class with coordinated switching pistol whips.

Its not a good class, the good thing about it was its ability to heal with food/malice, and without that (it doesn’t have stealth.) it just sucks compared to all the other builds.

Food items that give special bonuses upon a critical hit now have an internal cooldown before they can produce the special bonus again.

S/P is no longer viable in WvWvW, Going to go backstab now like all the other thieves since I can’t survive without stealth.

Fiontar.4695:

The problem is that they have offered no offset and have thus eliminated a number of builds from the list of “end game viable”, which for many professions was already a very short list. This problem has been acknowledged by the developers, with the admission that they want at least 5-6 viable builds for each profession, but many are currently stuck with one or two. You can now scratch at least one “end game viable” build from each profession with this change, maybe more.

This is the kind of nerf that always irks me the most from MMO developers. Looking at the heal on crit food effect in isolation, it may have been obviously disproportional in it’s impact on the game. However, when taken in context with the greater whole, it had just become an “unintended” FIX for an aspect of the game that was clearly BROKEN, which was variety of end game viable builds.

So, yay to the developers, you managed to snatch some very low hanging fruit, while making the game the worse for it by pushing the change with out the needed fixes to professions that would have made the food effect redundant.

Yep, I can’t really play my Pistol Whip thief anymore, now I “MUST” go stealth critical copy cutter thief.

Leo G.4501:

It was overpowered.

There, someone said it. Good thing I started weening myself off of pie lately. There’s lots of good food out there.

Like what?

wintermute.4096:

Daecollo.9578:

FlamingFoxx.1305:

Food shouldn’t even exist in a game that is meant to place players on an even scale and be more about skill in the first place.

It’s a bit ridiculous if you’re quitting because consumable items which were heavily abused in WvW have been changed >.>

Well, now the only good food is 10% Critical Damage/Precision, Congradulations on Wowifying the game and removing all the fun effects.

I liked omnomberry pies as much as anybody, but really, you can’t say with a straight face that that consumable wasn’t blatantly overpowered. I don’t think that just every single worthwhile dungeon spec was built around this consumable was intended.

edit: Does anybody even know if the new food stacks with the warrior’s banner by any chance?

Yes, but now dungeons will be much much harder, retaliation and confusion will be overpowered in wvwvw, this food was pretty much the only thing keeping these things in check.

Confusion/Retaliation really need an internal cool-down as well.

Oglaf.1074:

“Food items that give special bonuses upon a critical hit now have an internal cooldown before they can produce the special bonus again.”

This could potentially mean that Omnomberry Pies/Ghosts will be nerfed quite a bit. All speculation on my part, of course. This would prove devastating to certain ’zerker builds, as it is what keeps them alive.

An entire playstyle crushed in one patch with no reason, nobody said it was overpowered in pve or pvp.

FlamingFoxx.1305:

Food shouldn’t even exist in a game that is meant to place players on an even scale and be more about skill in the first place.

It’s a bit ridiculous if you’re quitting because consumable items which were heavily abused in WvW have been changed >.>

Well, now the only good food is 10% Critical Damage/Precision, Congradulations on Wowifying the game and removing all the fun effects.

Food items that give special bonuses upon a critical hit now have an internal cooldown before they can produce the special bonus again.

Huge Nerf… but no compensation?

It wasn’t that overpowered, but there was no reason to nerf this, now confusion/retal need a huge nerf in pve wvwvw.

I mean, you pretty much just made a lot of viable builds worthless but didn’t improve healing at all to match the effects, its a pretty dumb move.

But remember, if your in full zerkers you can and will probably get one-shot by a thief.

Laika.8795:

Daecollo.9578:

Laika.8795:

oZii.2864:

As someone else said can I get a thief everytime I dodge?

Don’t forget condition removal every time I fart.

Thats pretty unreliable condition removal.

I’m a vegetarian, I eat a lot of broccoli.

Should be a ranger trait then, deals with animals and stuff, that way whenever you OR your pet fart it cures a condition.

Laika.8795:

oZii.2864:

As someone else said can I get a thief everytime I dodge?

Don’t forget condition removal every time I fart.

Thats pretty unreliable condition removal.

I just wanted a “Juggernaut” Style tree, and more options, I just hate seeing “greatsword greatsword greatsword.” I would like more Hammer Warriors/Mace Warriors. Ect Ect.

This could still use a fix.

I want thieves to have cool downs, that means our skills would actually be made to do damage and our traits will be buffed greatly to the traits other classes have.

JJBigs.8456:

why would a warrior need defense?

Because Warriors are not Space Marines.

Will nothing pass the Black Gate?

Runes have been needing a revamp for a while, currently they are just… most of them are not worth taking because of Internal cool downs.

Well, could also just make Signet of Judgement/Protection add more toughness and raise the damage reduction amount toughness gives, and add diminishing returns.

Currently, this is what it is.
Converting damage reduction to equivalent toughness gain
The conversion will be done assuming a 2600-armor character. The formula is A*R/(1-R).
50% = 2600 toughness
33% = 1300 toughness (Protection)
25% = 867 toughness
20% = 650 toughness
15% = 459 toughness (Signet of Judgement with perfect insriptions)
10% = 289 toughness (Signet of Judgement)
5% = 137 toughness

Currently, One buff is almost as equal as having a full set of toughness soldier armor. (1300.), This is kind of ridiculous in my opinion, this means classes with high amounts of protection can just build glass and still be tank-y thanks to how much extra damage reduction it adds.

In my opinion, Toughness should scale up to 60-65% damage reduction at 2600 and Protection should be nerfed a bit, down to 25%. Toughness should be the ultimate armor stat, your sacrificing a lot to get it, so it should pay off well, especially since dungeons and most pvp punishes zerging, toughness also is ignored by conditions as well…

One buff giving you so much is kind of and will always be ridiculous.

Yeah, it would make the heal more useful and make it more skillful as well, its not like the ability is for stealth users.

Thats a good idea, if they remove “Revealed” and make Initiative Recharge rate 0.33 seconds per Initiative.

Thieves suffer more then any other class if they mess up, if they miss Cloak and Dagger for example, they must wait till its full again to use it. – They waste 6 Initiative, they don’t stealth, and they lose the attack opportunity.