I’d say it certainly is a given, given that the sylvari are not the only ones tied to it. I mean, Mordremoth and the White Stag would add to the Dream. Even if Wynne’s Wyld Hunt and A Light in the Darkness (and, for that matter, Hearts and Minds) are not proof enough, Mordremoth’s connection should be.
And, again, I don’t see how having something that drives to insanity (partial or fully) is beneficial….
In context we were discussing whether the dream already contains the All. It’s a possibility other parts have it, but it’s irrelevant to the discussion. The Sylvari are the only sources to their section. We may see a White Stag but we don’t know what it’s like to be one.
As for your other point. First of all it doesn’t have to drive people to insanity. We wouldn’t leave people in as long as Scarlet. Second we know it’s emotional enough to be uploaded.
The maps of the Antikytheria are horrible and there is no way to improve them. A person seeing the All once can’t grasp the detail, and a person seeing it several times might go insane. A sylvari with several experiences could accurately update existing representations.
Now for a stretch. When all is said and done won’t the Pale Tree be the strongest user of the Mind Domain on the planet? Could she make….? :
If the soundless are any indication the current dreamer could not synthesize so many benign perspectives without it becoming traumatic. But maybe the pale tree can do it for us till then.
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@konig
A dragon came at them, not an orb. I am not disagreeing which orb was Zhaitan. I am saying the dragon the PC saw/heard was Mordremoth.
We don’t know whether the Antikytheria is showing different levels of the Eternal Alchemy, but we have no reason to assume the visions are separate. When Scarlet saw the All she expressed a desire to zoom in. As she plunged deeper she saw the Pale Tree. Since the context is a map, this implies magnification.
The PC is on Tyria so naturally a detailed depiction of the planet includes them.
On the main topic:
I doubt Taimi can perform her task without a dragon’s/powerful entity’s assistance. And even if she could, she will be harmed for trying.
Edit: this brings us back to the OP
Those that aren’t champions+ rely on a group/hive mind, or an artifact/technology to perform the functions of stronger minds.
The Pale Tree is still sane after experiencing Scarlet’s vision.
And even though the PC would obviously want a Caladbolg that cleansed corruption, the one we ended up making with the Pale Tree’s help is inferior.
Knowledge is literally power. Being able to hold all that information in one brain separates a dude from a diety.
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Racial skills are not really generic but cultural, half of them aren’t even magic.
You didn’t answer the question.
Are Sylvari naturally endowed with the ability to use plant magic?
And did they inherit any mind magic?
There is NPC dialogue just outside the grove that indicate that people naturally veer towards certain professions. And there was an old must-controversial interview, where one of the less-controversial questions/answers mentioned that children tend to veer towards the profession of their parents. But as we know that people can learn the ways of multiple professions (though this is hard to be adept in both, compared with going after two different doctorates degrees) we know that this is not a set-in-stone thing.
While Demmi and Caudecus both seemed to be the same class (as evidenced by the skills they used in Confessor’s End), Logan does not use the magic of either of his ancient ancestors, Gwen and Kieran Thackery.
Slight caveat: Kieran became a paragon, and paragons merged with monks to become guardians, which Logan is. ;D
Still your point is sound.
And I think Belinda used guardian skills but do not quote me on this. I could have been seeing Braham’s skills when doing the mission, rather than Belinda’s.
Have you consider the racial skills though? That sort-of genetic.
Are Sylvari better Druids? And if the Mind Domain was passed on, are they better Mesmers?
If only I got a gold coin for every “Lazarus is (insert_random_character_name)” thread. If only…
Abaddon-Lazarus, Queen Jennah-Lazarus, Glint-Lazarus. I can’t understand why people want something that makes no logical sence, no buildup and no story cohesion but is “surprising”. Just to shout “What a twist!” maybe?
Ok than, this way real Lazarus should be a mechanical rabbit with death-ray eyes riding a shark who wants to kill all sapient organic life forms before they invented artificial intelligence which would rebel and kill all the organics. What a twist!
The PC is Lazarus we just don’t know it yet because there are no clues.
Except that the dragon which “came at [the Pact Commander]” was… Zhaitan’s orb (well, they all kind of did, but Zhaitan’s was the closest and was right up to the camera before crashing into Tyria’s orb; Mordremoth’s was second closest).
Which is actually rather interesting, given Zhaitan was dead at the time that it would be the dragon which “came at [the Pact Commander]”.
Not to mention the PC claimed to have seen their own role in The All (which is also rather interesting and not yet answered, unless the role is slaying the orbs and throwing The All out of balance… WE ARE THE HARBINGER OF DESTRUCTION! ALL SHALL BOW BEFORE US AND DIE! FIRE AND CHAOS FOLLOWS IN OUR WAKE AND NONE CAN STOP US IN OUR CRUSADE OF ANNIHILATION!)
The Antikytheria is a map of the cosmos, the PC finding their role is not surprising. Whether they found out they were special in someway is another matter entirely.
The Dragon was probably Mordremoth. He and the PT have proven capable at contacting those in the machine and you hear a growl at the end of your vision. Zhaitan’s orb may have fallen first, but he was dead at that point. So either the sound is part of the experience and represents another growling entity, or Mordremoth contacted the PC’s mind while they were in the machine.
We’ve seen that the Dream can provide knowledge of things that were unknown to the sylvari – the A Light In The Darkness instance is an example therof. The sylvari provide experiences to the Dream, but they are not the sole source.
It’s is certainly a possibility but not a given.
For the purpose of this discussion, the Pale Tree clearly responded to Ceara experiencing the All. If it turns out that the All is not yet within the Sylvari portion of the Dream, having scholars view it would help future dreamers. Having two viewpoints on a situation is a useful.
What do they do? Are there any examples of them in the story?
The only thing I assume at the moment is that attaching to/entering the Dream uses the Mind Domain.
I can’t point any time where Scarlet’s goal was “to be recognized as one of the greatest in her field” – her goal as shown in the short story of her background was 100% “to learn more at any means”. And this included treachery and domination, such as tricking her mentors (while being gleefully uncaring of consequences which, somehow, did not affect her – thus the first case of mary sueness came into place), and joining the Inquest.
Mordremoth did not implant treachery and deception or domination onto Scarlet, she had that even while being Ceara. It’s true that Mordremoth got into Scarlet’s mind ever since entering the machine, but his machinations seemed to just be implanting plans into her – mainly, I’d argue, revolving around the Tower of Nightmares (a ton of obvious and in-hindsight-even-more-obvious Mordremoth references in that content) and waking Mordremoth.
That said, going into the machine and witnessing The All seemed to merely draw Mordremoth’s attention to Scarlet. Similarly, when the PC goes into the machine, they respond with saying “[the dragon] came at me.” So in turn, Taimi going into the machine and witnessing The All will potentially draw her to the other dragons’ attention.
And, well, the last time an asura caught the attention of an Elder Dragon’s mind… Kralkatorrik went fullblown “kill the kitten pest in my brain!” and sent its small army of branded after the asura’s body, as well as attacked personally.
To be fair, Snaff was going directly into his Mind. I doubt the Antikytheria is directly attached to an ED’s consciousness.
There may be special liberties attached to a Mind Dragon or his Blighting Trees.
@Konig “it was incredible” sounds more like exhilaration than trauma. A roller-coaster produces stress but it doesn’t maim the psyche.
And these reactions are more likely to be imprinted because of their emotional impact.
@Drax The Pale Tree sees the most current additions to the Dream, including Ceara’s vision. This is why there is a slight delay before the Pale Tree warns her to stop. She saw the very beginning of the vision, and felt her protection slipping, its not hard to assume what the rest of the vision will entail. It’s possible the whole vision was uploaded which is why she already knew what the Commander saw.
While I find most of your ideas very interesting, Daniel, the way you formulate and combine them makes very strange and hard to grasp what you are trying to say.
It’s not stated definitively but every recorded incidence follows that pattern. Including (off the top of my head)
- dragon corruption, rite of the great dwarf, the margonites, the searing, the cataclysm, the foefire, the exalted, the cleansing of orr, kudu, jade wind,
Ok. So… the goal of every recorded incident was to make someone “as strong as the Pale Tree”? I don’t think this is what you are trying to say.
I think you are mixing the goal, the specific intention of the people making those events happen, with the final and general effects of those incidents.The goal of Omadd’s Machine was to look directly at the Eternal Alchemy. Its effect was to give Mordremoth a direct link to Scarlet’s mind. Also she got a glimpse of “the All” and of Mordremoth’s mind, gaining some strenghts and knowledge from that, along a bunch of personality disorders. If this experience made her “stronger than the pale tree” or not, doesn’t have any relevance, IMO, given the resolution of her story.
With all her knowledge from the All and prior education she still had to rely on Mordremoth. Technology alone couldn’t accomplish her goal.
Are you refering to Scarlet? Wasn’t her goal to awake mordremoth? So… she still had to rely on Mordremoth to awake Mordremoth? AFAIK, she did awake Mordremoth by cleverly using technology (A giant drill).
I’ll try to be clearer.
All incidents in the game where something was permanently transformed by magic came from one of the following:
We have never seen a regular person permanently change something totally by themselves.
I don’t think Scarlet just accomplished it through her own ingenuity + the All. I think she had help from Mordemoth in the knowledge department.
I think Taimi when she accesses the All will not get enough information to invent a solution.
This is obviously my subjective interpretation of the events surrounding Scarlet, and how complex Taimi’s machine will have to be.
Scarlet didn’t rely on Mordremoth. Mordremoth was forcibly taking over control of Scarlet’s plans. Her goal – initially – was to confront Mordremoth in a “I will win my freedom” way, but she lost herself by the end and he manipulated her into waking him up.
But it was all done via technology. Only indication of Mordremoth’s influence was the Toxic Alliance.
Do you think she built everything with just what she gained from the All?
By “not all memories” I’m referring to the fact that only the more emotional memories are put into the Dream and as people get used to those emotions the less those events are put into the Dream. This is why the Nightmare Court stop having their memories put into the Dream – because they become more and more used to the pain and suffering they receive/inflict that it’s no longer an emotional moment.
And in all honesty, it isn’t that “50% of the sylvari who entered Omadd’s machine have not had traumatic experiences” – the Pact Commander acted rather traumatized by the event, even non-sylvari.
And even then, the Pact Commander is hardly a good example of status quo since we’re obviously above and beyond even the heroes of Tyria. Normal sylvari being forced into the machine against their will, will no doubt bite one in the kitten tenfold.
And you’re acting like the sylvari are the sole ties to the sylvari when they’re not. The Dream existed before them, and hold ties to beings not related to Mordremoth or the sylvari (such as the White Stag). Who’s to say that the Dream doesn’t already incorporate a large portion of The All – just that sylvari cannot (perhaps properly so) access it.
Source for the first part? The Nightmare is a location within the overall Dream that is separate from the part the Pale Tree accesses. Whether the Nightmare Court stops sending memories to the Nightmare is unknown.
I don’t remember my character being particularly traumatized from Omadd’s machine, then again nor was I by Mordremoth’s call. So it may be more frightening for non-commanders.
What is not in our part of the Dream or the Nightmare is irrelevant. The Sylvari are the only active race with ties to the Dream. And so far they have only accessed their own race’s memory.
Well what we saw was The All (not the Eternal Alchemy – they’re two separate things).
But yeah, why would this be a good idea, exactly? It should be noted that not all memories go to the Dream, and traumatic experiences (such as going in that machine… especially forced into it) can lead sylvari towards the Nightmare.
Not all memories? Are you referring to the Nightmare Court or Mallyck?
As a consequence of adherence to tenet seven (where life goes) the Dream will slowly become the largest repository of Tyrian knowledge. But it won’t know everything.
50% of the sylvari who entered Omadd’s machine have not had traumatic experiences. But 100% were unable to fully parse what they saw. Willing scholars could risk it and supply the Dream with more information and someday, in composite, the Dream would know the All.
Its beneficial when multiple sylvari tackle seemingly incomprehensible subjects.
If Taimi has to see it, she is gaining something from sensation that she isn’t from reading Apostate’s tome or the various charts in the Priory. This information in subjective conscious experience is called qualia.
Other than mind reading, the Dream is the only possible way of acquiring qualia from another. Moreover it does it better than any known telepath. It’s a priceless yet unpredictable resource.
Ok, I get that you think Taimi won’t learn anything useful or whatever, but what was all that stuff in the middle that you pulled outta yer kitten?
Perhaps it was too dense. Let me simplify it.
There are two types of spellcasters.
Group A: Gods/Dragons/Champions
- they can solo cast permanent changes
Group B: everyone else
- they can’t solo cast permanent changes
- instead they use combined power (Dwarves, Forgotten, Hive Mind)
- or artifacts/technology (Caladbolg, Sanguinary Blade, Kudu’s machine)
Scarlet saw the All and she didn’t become as strong as the pale tree, even with her engineering to boost her.
Taimi may surpass Kudu, but she won’t surpass Caladbolg. She can’t succeed.
Firstly, about your assertion about spell casters and whom can and cannot “cast permanent changes”….how do you know? I don’t remember that ever being stated definitively in lore.
Secondly, where was it stated that the goal of Omadd’s machine was to make Scarlet “as strong as the Pale Tree”? That wasn’t the point of the thing. While knowledge IS power, having it isn’t supposed to change you at a physical level.
Thirdly…surpass Caladbog? You say the strangest things.
It’s not stated definitively but every recorded incidence follows that pattern. Including (off the top of my head)
Strength does not only refer to physical changes. Scarlet is not as strong as the Pale Tree because she couldn’t make technology that rivaled her power.
The power in that instance was heralding, the ability to find and wake a sleeping Elder Dragon.
Even if I’m wrong in believing the Pale Tree had the ability to wake Mordremoth, we can compare Scarlet and the Great Destroyer. Both hastened awakenings by four decades. And both relied on resources gained from Elder Dragons.
With all her knowledge from the All and prior education she still had to rely on Mordremoth. Technology alone couldn’t accomplish her goal.
Taimi wants to redirect two competing dragon energies against each other. We believe Caladbolg had a similar purpose, it directed a bunch of plant magic against death magic to cleanse Orr.
Taimi won’t have help from Jormag or Primordius. At best she can ask the Pale Tree how they made Caladbolg.
The All is not the Eternal Alchemy. I don’t think it will be enough.
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What the….I don’t even…..
Sylvari memories are combined in the Dream.
If one person sees an image for under a second they might not be able to completely describe it. But if one million people do it you can average their descriptions of the photo. Same with one Sylvari seeing the All.
Ok, I get that you think Taimi won’t learn anything useful or whatever, but what was all that stuff in the middle that you pulled outta yer kitten?
Perhaps it was too dense. Let me simplify it.
There are two types of spellcasters.
Group A: Gods/Dragons/Champions
Group B: everyone else
Scarlet saw the All and she didn’t become as strong as the pale tree, even with her engineering to boost her.
Taimi may surpass Kudu, but she won’t surpass Caladbolg. She can’t succeed.
I realize it may have made Scarlet go insane. But the commander has also gone through the machine without incident.
Why don’t we send all Sylvari through the machine? They won’t see everything, but they will see some. And some would add up in their racial memory.
Then we would have some Sylvari born with a tremendous talent in alchemy.
I believe Taimi goal is a red herring.
Permanence in a world of shapeshifters is when a spell’s effects persist indefinitely after the initial cast.
The magic for permanent material transformations has always come from divine/dragon sources. Beings of much larger strength and intellect to mortals.
Even with access to these energies those below the level of champion cannot directly influence an indefinite change without a hive mind, group ritual, or technology (artifact, engineering, etc).
A single Sylvari can permanently manipulate plants but none have shown the ability to change fauna or minerals to flora.
Given that even the Dream can’t impart the requisite knowledge, these kinds of spells require more than just an understanding. We don’t know for sure what is needed. Its possible champions and above simply have more intellect, it’s also possible they have more of the necessary magic, Taimi has neither.
They could pull a Kudu, and have Taimi learn enough for a machine that does what she cannot. But I don’t think they will.
I predict Taimi will see the All and not grasp enough of Dragon Magic to help us. It will be a humbling moment and we all use Braham/fakeLazarus to kill the dragons.
She won’t be injured, or become insane, she will just completely fail.
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@Amaimon: You took the situation to a completely different level while entirely ignoring my previous post. I think that means we’re done here.
@Daniel: Roaring Ethers were largely made out of stone, despite their names. Carven Effigies were basically animated sarcophagi – though they were labeled elementals by mechanic, they are in lore closer to constructs. Same with the stone guardians in Factions – mechanically elementals, but in lore they’re man-made animated constructs through and through.
I wouldn’t call those weird.
Plus, nothing ever really restricted elementals to being the four main elements of fire, earth, air, and water. After all, we had crystal, sand, and ice elementals in Prophecies. To quote the infamous Redcloak “It’s not my fault everyone else limits themselves to four elements. Some of us got passing grades in Chem.”
Again I do not debate any of this. The point was just that elements does not always mean “the elements.” Perhaps weird wasn’t the best word, but the homonyms throughout the subject are, as drax put it, unfortunate. For instance fire the substance, fire the attunement, holy fire, dhummfire.
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‘Elemental’ seems to be a broad term for “creature made from a single substance/phase, which shouldn’t be alive, but is due to being animated by magic”.
That said, things like the leyline coalescences and bloodstone elementals could be viewed as essentially being air and earth elementals respectively: just that they have even more magic in them than typical elementals.
I don’t doubt the single substance aspect, I doubt any use of ‘the’ before elements. Roaring Ethers, tar elementals, and carven effigy defy such division.
@amaimon read the OP. Konig was talking about coliving, not possession.
“Can elemental possess and/or co-live in a body of a living creature? If not, what creatures can do that?”
@rognik & drax
The concept of an elemental is weird. There are leyline, and ether elementals, neither of which are fire/water/air/earth.
@Konig
Your Rule 1 is actually don’t pursue what doesn’t make sense. It is a reworking of Occam’s Razor that is useful but not infallible. Moreover it is not as unlikely as you assume.
Inactive
Ether
Magic-
Mental exertion
Temporary vs permanent
Maguuma bloodstone
Edit:
I realise I’m actually arguing two theories.
The evidence for the former is very circumstantial. I will try to focus more on the later.
This thread has given me a lot of interesting ideas. Thanks to everyone who participated. I’ll make a new post for some of the idea I gathered from this thread that ate unrelated to all magic is dragon magic.
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@Konig
Now, I call bullkitten on your calling bullkitten.
Writers can make mistakes, but so can readers. This is not a chronological error, this a eureka moment you disregarded because it seems to defy previous lore. You need proof, otherwise your dismissal is just as much an assumption as anything in this thread.
Science would never advance if new discoveries were rejected because they conflicted with older ones. It may be unlikely that Taimi is correct, but saying Snaff was smart is not evidence.
There is no default argument
We can test each hypothesis using recorded events, but we can’t prove anything yet.
The purpose for this thread was to craft a theory that matched the past and present lore, because it would be exciting if this was something hidden in plain sight. Moreover its much more satisfying than assuming the writers goofed.
Either way back the theory
Perhaps poor choice of words on my part. Inactive corruption is that which is not actively corrupting/consuming magic. It cannot be produced passively by a sleeping dragon. The thaumanova fallout, and the Sylvari are inactive corruption. Without external knowledge, you would not be able to tell they were corrupted.
The mists are the protoreality. We don’t know if it is purely ether, but most of the area between realities, and the creatures that inhabit that, are etheric. We also know from the research journal that when mesmers alter reality temporarily they are inducing ether.
What I drew from Snaff was magic as a connector, which therefore meant magic and ether made reality.
From what I have seen in game the Sylvari cannot corrupt. Incidents like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFQFiJlgPOw are from the Pale Tree’s magic. They grow using seeds, but nothing is permanent .
It unusual that only the divine and dragons can permanently create/alter the forms of others. Lich, Exalted, Dwarves, etc have all been able to change themselves, but no one has turned a person into ice.
Given that the difficulty of a spell is the power load/mental exertion, perhaps we aren’t strong or smart enough to corrupt.
The thaumanova reactor, and Kudu corrupted purely by applying concentrated dragon energy. The average mortal would not be able to concentrate it that high by mind alone.
The bloodstone explosion produce unstable areas that materialized into dragon domain divisions. I presumed it was the denial stone, and therefore it was chaos magic. Otherwise its confusing why the magic would become things from several schools.
The idea for fission comes from the fact that the dragons survive despite exuding all their food. My thinking is they split magic down and eat the released energy. The domain they split can be easily concentrated physically and amplified mentally to change reality. The mental enslavement part comes from minions needing the intellect of the hive mind to corrupt.
If I missed something in your response I apologize. I’ll go over this reply when I have time.
Water runes are generally better.
Only for you, the 10% outgoing heal on monk heals more than water.
Which is why I also recommend sigil of transference on both weapon sets if you are going yolo healer.
any of the sigils with “on use of heal skill” are also VERY good for ventari since you can spam your heal skill. you can get nearly 100% uptime on fury or regen for 5 people just out of your runes plus even rune of the flock is pretty good.
I think you mean on heal rune, and while they are all very good, monk is still the best option. It heals more than flock, and water. And the boons from dwayna/grove/altruism can be given with glint/traits.
I should correct what I said earlier. One should use sigils of water and life. The math was done on that and they have the best heals per second.
how are you supposed to provide fury and regen with glint while your using ventari tablet to heal? does not compute.
You heal in glint via regen and shield/staff #4. Regen alone heals others 500+ a tick if properly traited. The shield skill hits for 5214 in heals, staff around 4995. Plenty of healing for the 10 seconds you’re in Glint. Unless there are specific phases of a fight where intense healing is needed, which then I recommend camping ventari for those phases.
Edit: Fixed my guesstimates with actual math using my build.
Sort of
if your goal is intense healing, never camp ventari
You can cast 5 harmonies in 10 seconds.
We have two contextual modifiers
Obviously there are permutations that don’t use harmony, but the point was intense heals.
If you camp you can only use Option C, which heals the most, but in the longest time
Swapping gives you access to Options A-C, plus whatever new options arise from the stance paired with Ventari.
Legitimate resources to camp ventari are
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As far as boons go, yes. If the game had actually high incoming damage in some fights, their raw healing (after all the primary reason to bring a Ventari Rev) would be the alpha and omega. [snip]
Not really.
In this game, and all the games you mentioned, there are timers on bosses.
Even if they edit boss timers Ventari is useless.
@ konig
I understand the situation as it is.
I invite you to apply your logic to Anets creative license. While a teapot around Jupiter, and all snow being Jormag’s is of unknown probability, this discussion is not.
Writers are omnipotent. You can treat lore inconsistencies as crafty storytelling with misunderstood connections, or you can label them retcons. But they are not mistakes until shown otherwise. As the reader of an ongoing story you do not have the literary authority to break the fourth wall. You can say that the characters were misled.
The goal of this thread was not to definitively prove Taimi/Scarlet correct.The purpose was to assume they were right, and treat this like a puzzle of connecting discordant facts. Yes we could just wait for the writers. But the discussion is interesting…to some.
We are each entitled to plausible literary interpretations until proven others.
Here is my current theory, or what I have of it so far
1 Taimi:
2 Scarlet:
3 Permanence:
4 trapped forms
5 Corruption
Tldr;
We saw the abilities of entities vastly stronger than ourselves and we assumed that they are other rather than we are weak.
The Gods, Dragons, and Dwarves can permanently transform the flesh in ways that the Dervish, Mesmers, and Revenants cannot.
All magic is dragon magic. All magic can be actively used to corrupt matter.
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Water runes are generally better.
Only for you, the 10% outgoing heal on monk heals more than water.
Which is why I also recommend sigil of transference on both weapon sets if you are going yolo healer.
any of the sigils with “on use of heal skill” are also VERY good for ventari since you can spam your heal skill. you can get nearly 100% uptime on fury or regen for 5 people just out of your runes plus even rune of the flock is pretty good.
I think you mean on heal rune, and while they are all very good, monk is still the best option. It heals more than flock, and water. And the boons from dwayna/grove/altruism can be given with glint/traits.
I should correct what I said earlier. One should use sigils of water and life. The math was done on that and they have the best heals per second.
I don’t misunderstand it. Ventari is meant as a healing and support legend. You don’t use ventari to be dealing damage. With the high base healing and healing power scaling on Natural Harmony, along with the guaranteed 15% boost in effectiveness if revs are giving out alacrity, a Ventari rev can be giving out absolutely insane healing. Within hours of the patch going live, there were pics of Revs healing 14k at once. And now they can give 75% uptime on alacrity on top of having absolutely insane heals.
It wasn’t meant to be a damage dealing legend, but that doesn’t change that it still has huge group support through those massive heals and high alacrity uptime. And a healing/support rev could still reflect projectiles without leaving ventari as long as he is willing to just not get 75% uptime on alacrity. But even 50% uptime would be possible while still bringing decent amounts of projectile hate.
Then you are misunderstanding it.
A mesmer can easily get above 50% uptime, bring much better projectile hate, and share perma quickness. The amount the revenant would heal while juggling multiple tasks is less than the damage avoided by killing faster.
When revenants multitask they perform worse than the associated classes.
Moreover whether its healing/boons/alacrity/etc they are across the board worse at burst.
For instance if you want to see insane heals add up the Druid burst heal rotation.
[quote=6513761;OriOri.8724:]
Alacrity uptime aside, its also significantly harder for chronos to generate alacrity for party members than it is for the rev. They share 3 seconds of it every time they use natural harmony, which requires 4 seconds to refill the energy cost.
The only source of alacrity that chronos have that generates similar amounts of alacrity is WoR that generates 5 sec of alacrity on a 35 sec recharge. The only other sources for party wide alacrity from chronos is 2 seconds at the end of wells and iAvenger.
I’m honestly more upset about Revs having easier access to party alacrity than chronos do than I am about revs getting alacrity. It should be dialed back to 2 sec of alacrity on natural harmony for revs, and some of the sources of alacrity for chronos should be buffed up as well.
You don’t understand how the energy system works then.
Revenants gain on demand near perma (usually) sustain of abilities taken from other professions. But they lose multitasking from the resource constraints.
A mesmer can sustain alacrity, and projectile denial.
A revenant can perma 75% alacrity, OR perma projectile denial
So would you allow 80% of your weapon skills to be disabled, and lose the ability to share boons, if it meant easier access?
Alacry need to be shared with other classes, its healthy, and by far the revenant is the smartest choice, because he cant benefit from it so no power creep. Now imagine if an Ele or Engi had acess to alacry that would be a huge power spike for them and would need a lot of nerfs because of it.
Except they can benefit from it a great deal.
On this episode of Mythbusters we discuss the recent patch.
1: Anet said alacrity would be unique to chronomancy- true
2: Alacrity barely benefits Revenants/Ventari – busted
3: Mesmer still puts out more alacrity – kinda busted
Water runes are generally better.
Only for you, the 10% outgoing heal on monk heals more than water.
Which is why I also recommend sigil of transference on both weapon sets if you are going yolo healer.
@Narcemus and Aaaron
If you read Konig’s remarks he answers this.
1. Corruption is caused by direct influence. The magic of the blade wills corruption like a minion.The tooth, Kralk’s blood, the thaumanova reactor, etc, cannot infuse corruption.
2. When Elder Dragons sleep they exude uncorrupted magic. The “raw power” the Asuras drew from Primordius, regardless of which domain it was, isn’t corrupted.
I think that the main reason that Aaron asked the second question was because in my theory that would not be the case. And dragons would exude their corrupted magic. Since my theory changed that idea, he was curious how I would then deal with that scenario, to which I didn’t have the greatest answer.
Oh well then I have misread your theory. Apologies.
I thought you meant the twisting of magic inside them had to be intentional. So if they ate and then slept the magic wouldn’t corrupt.
Either way this does bring up an interesting point. How does some of the magic corrupt inside them but not all. I don’t think we have the answer yet with existing lore.
@Narcemus and Aaaron
If you read Konig’s remarks he answers this.
1. Corruption is caused by direct influence. The magic of the blade wills corruption like a minion.The tooth, Kralk’s blood, the thaumanova reactor, etc, cannot infuse corruption.
2. When Elder Dragons sleep they exude uncorrupted magic. The “raw power” the Asuras drew from Primordius, regardless of which domain it was, isn’t corrupted.
“Am I the only one who thinks it would be nice to get some good options for sustain/condi clear outside of the inspiration traitline…”
The traitlines were designed based upon specific purposes. Any sustain/condi clear from outside inspiration will be worse.
This rule applies to all professions. Stuff like diamondskin seems great to us, but it is objectively worse than cleansing water to an ele.
They might tweak numbers slightly but it will not most likely not be a “good” option by your standards.
Revenant does not have better raw healing. The classes have the same hps overtime.
OP the best part of Revenant is that it can sustain the abilities of other classes for much longer duration than they themselves can, and essentially on demand.
The unfortunate part is that this sustain prevents us from multitasking, and when its unnecessary it also makes the class unnecessary.
@ Zenith
Ele is punished for multitasking with large cds instead of energy costs, destroying their sustain. And their burst healing is punished because of their access to water fields.
The only way your statement is accurate is if you count the healing from blasting water fields. But not all of those blasts come from the tempest.
While its true Ventari has been made unnecessary by Tempest, that is not because Tempest is better at healing in any way.
edit: Simultaneous condition removal does not count as healing, even though it can remove damaging conditions.
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“Chronomancy is the only specialization allowed access to this powerful effect”
Revenant is a profession that channels other professions.
Pretend Ventari was a chronomancer during his life.
The developers haven’t broken their promise. A class that can quasi-shapeshift into a Mesmer will gain alacrity.
Lore comes before your petty pride.
@konig,
You either have contradictions or you raise more questions.
You imply that everything that wasn’t hit by the initial blast requires direct influence in the aftermath.
The Searing shot up and hit the sky. Perhaps clouds in the atmosphere were corrupted. The brand shot down and hit the ground, it didn’t hit any clouds. By your own reasoning the now crystalline clouds that fell in the searing wouldn’t affect the soil any more than sentinels wandering in the brand.
Everything corrupted should follow the same color pallette and nomenclature as standard corrupted. The searing crystals match the color of the brand. And when Sylvari lost control they reverted to the other colors.
Not everything has to be corrupted, but if your bare minimum is ignoring color, nomenclature and contagiousness, your definition isn’t incongruous it’s useless.
Well at least useless for a rebuttal to the all magic is dragon magic hypothesis. The only requirement is a transformation and magic is an avenue for change.
Even if you meant only the fallout qualifies as a new form we can do a scavenger hunt for areas with similar models.
@ narcemus
I do have some questions.
What do you mean by cleansed?
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@ Narcemus,
I understand you replies, and mostly agree, with your replies to 1-2. But let me rephrase part of 3.
1: Dragons create their opposing element
According to your theory:
Unless the opposing domains are random, which they do no appear to be, cleansed sets will oppose each other during materialization.
2: no dragons = no magic
@konig.
Kralkatorrik is the crystal/sky dragon, and crystals fell from the sky. Changing the air into crystalline structures would fit its MO.
The ice formations are the same shape , different names, different colors (corrupted is closer to the corrupted ice turquoise standard).
We don’t get corrupted because we are the player character. Orr has corrupted newly dead in the region. And the dragonbrand has corrupted creatures during and after the initial blast. The thaumanova fallout has done neither.
The dragon energy produced vegetation that does not resemble mordremoths creations. Or, based on the elemental keys, it produced earth that non-corrupted plants are growing on despite the tainted soil.
Your definition is still incongruous with the fallout.
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For ventari.
Which was the goal.
Ventari is built around micromanging several low cd skills to convert energy into hps/utility. Sustain and burst is just the rate of energy consumption.
Alacrity allows us to burn energy faster.
I’m gonna play around with the legend more. I suggest you all theorycraft as well.
@Narcemus
Your theory has interesting implications, part, some, all, or none of which are accurate (I haven’t checked the lore, but lets pretend its fact):
If Dragons sorted domains out of food for millennia:
1. then there should be a noticeable amount of magic missing specifically that domain
2. the leylines quickly absorb discarded dragon magic so the discards aren’t noticed.
3a. Dragons create their opposing element
3b. the magic isn’t noticeable or immediately absorbed by the leyline, instead it is the magic we all use. (all magic is dragon magic)
3c. no dragons = no magic.
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@Konig
You are contradicting yourself.
The Searing changed the environment in ways mirroring Kralkatorrik. But as you said that does not make it corruption, or dragon energy. You can’t turn around and say the opposite for the Thaumanova Reactor because your definition is incongruous with its aftermath.
Did the dragon energy cleanse itself during the explosion? Was there forgotten magic in the reactor? Perhaps a process we don’t understand.
Regardless, canon dragon energy is not acting like its counterparts.
The fix was mainly about teleports being hella OP before. Now it’s a much more even playing field.
I agree they were strong. But if that was their reasoning they could have said that instead of making up reasons like visibility.
I’m probably very late on this. I didn’t read the patch notes, and by chance when I played PVP I never got clocktower. Today I got the map.
Why is the fix so ugly? Was it causing that many problems to visibility/camera behavior?
This seems like a non-issue in a sea of things they need to fix in pvp.
Margonites and Dragon Minions
- corrupted by exposure to magic.
- sterile, with a necessity to convert
- known for consuming a substance
- underwent a physical transformation that grew worse over time.
- Source? I don’t think we’ve ever actually been given how the Margonites became Margonites beyond “Abaddon did it.”
- There’s that line in the Skritt story, but I think that was unreliable narrator. We see Risen laying eggs, Blighting Trees generating minions, and so on… dragon minions clearly can make more of themselves.
- “Known for consuming a substance” is so broad as to be useless. Humans are known for consuming food, water, and oxygen.
- The Margonite wiki page says that, but I’d need a primary source – it’s been a while since I’ve read up on Margonite stuff, and the wiki pages are notoriously unreliable when it comes to lore (it has a LOT of speculation posted as fact). Either way, though, “a physical transformation that grows worse over time” is so broad as to be useless as evidence. Aging counts, for instance.
IF I understand the vision in Omadd’s machine correctly, the dragon’s spheres of influence are part of the eternal alchemy. I interpet as meaning the dragons have been here from the beginning of Tyria, absorbing and then releasing magic. If that’s the case, unless new magic is being created, then all magic should be contaminated with dragon magic. The only other way for non dragon magic to exist is that something is cleansing magic from dragon corruption. Where is new magic being created, or what is cleansing magic.
The magic the Elder Dragons eat is cleansed in their digestion, and exuded as uncorrupted magic when they sleep.
However your idea is theoretically possible if the Elder Dragons don’t cleanse it 100%.
My currently theory is that corruption is just radioactive magic that has been split in specific ways. So like all atoms contain radioactive particles, all magic contains dragon energy.
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@konig, replay the fractal
All of the icebrood are teleported in by rips in space time. Same with the branded, etc. That’s why we don’t see any icebrood inquest.
I am not concerned whether all of the chaos magic was dragon energy. Only that we agree some of it was. Because if so, Scarlet referred to some amount of magic as dragon energy, and no one was corrupted by it before or after. Ergo Taimi is not the only exception.
@ drax
Margonites and Dragon Minions
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@stand the wall
You could be right. It would make some sense. The Mursaat can avoid the Elder Dragons by phasing out of Tyria. This seems to be unique to them. Perhaps in their greed they used the dragons to routinely wipe out the other races so Tyria would only belong to them.
However we need more info.
@drax
I understand your argument, and I respect the necessity for nomenclature.
However I do think something is wrong with our operational definition.
For instance:
Here is one way to resolve the terminology of Scarlet and Taimi.
We discussed before not knowing the composition of magic, but I actually think we know more than previously discussed.
There are observable elements of fenmagic (the magic of the bloodstone fen bloodstone).
My first assumption is that this is the Denial stone.
My second assumption is that the magic is nearly entirely chaos magic due to how the bloodstones were divided.
There are some unusual occurrences. Certain areas of unstable fen magic have shifted.
They follow the formula “This magic is unstable and has materialized in the form of a ____”
Now, I recognize that these floating magenta/pink circles do not outwardly resemble their associated phenomena. It is plausible they are denial magic acting like bits of induced reality, especially because mesmers are fully capable of mimicing magic from other professions.
What is noticeable is the divisions they naturally undergo
All of them explicit or implied domains of the Elder Dragons. It might appear as if the water domain is missing but if you examine the glider skills it’s possible to stabilize the chaos magic into a water field. Moreover one can focus it into a key line.
Perhaps chaos magic actually is a mixture of all or most of the dragon domains. And is itself an erratic form of ley-magic.
The Margonites share all of the properties of dragon magic except the hive mind, which given the Sylvari is not a necessary aspect. And we know they are etheric, the same substance as mesmer/chaos magic.
Perhaps corruption is simply unstable chaos magic changing reality into one of the dragon domains.
All water is not ice. But all water contains radioactive particles in stable configuration.
Given how none of the dragon domains, including death magic, fully match up with a school or type within, perhaps each school, and mortal magic, are stable configurations of dragon magic.
For instance ice, water, fire, sky, crystal could be the basis of elemental magic.
The magic of the thaumanova reactor behaved like the fen areas. This time converting a little more before burning out.
Perhaps dragons domain when properly separated have a significantly longer half life.
That’s all I can think of for now. I may add to or clarify this later.
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@Drax
I am not trying to a priori see the eternal alchemy. But we know enough about magic to talk about it in the abstract. The analogies are just metaphysical guesswork to see if Taimi’s statement could make sense.
For instance, even though no one knows the composition we could decide that the ley>dragon conversion wasn’t based on concentration because of the variance in high-magic events.
Now several analogies and arguments in this thread are distinctions in nomenclature:
1: All p resembles x
2: q does not resemble x
3: therefore q is not p
This is valid, but is not sound. The first statement is false, and this affects the conclusion.
We could say that the “virus” in inactive in Sylvari, but it defeats the usefulness of the definition. Perhaps everything could contain the inactive form. This is not to argue from analogy, rather that the analogy doesn’t work. There are halfway points even for computer viruses.
I understand what you are trying to say. There are specific distinctions between types of magic that can be used categorically.
What I am currently thinking, and what Taimi may be as well, is that our distinctions are superficial in some way.
For instance there are several different types of ice. They have different names, and that’s fine. But it’s the same substance.
@stand the wall
I do not think dragon corruption is an abnormal state, The All showed us the dragons were linked to the balance of the planet. Can something essential be wrong? Radiation warps matter, but it isn’t abnormal.
We know non-corruptive dragon magic exists because that is what Sylvari and Mawdrey are.
The thing you linked was corrupted by mist magic. We don’t know whether mist magic is just ley magic from domains not found on Tyria, or if there is a larger difference.
Regardless because it uses the word “corrupted” this is useful lore for understanding the terminology.
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And you cannot gain a property that is not shared in part by the other phases.
All magic is dragon magic, just as all magic is ley magic, just as all magic is mist magic.
if youre making the argument that different types of magic exist everywhere to a minute degree then I can agree to that.
I cant agree to all magic is dragon magic. that’s like saying because entropy exists everywhere all is chaos, which is clearly false. it matters what magic is dominant.
No. I am saying that magic is an energy, and all physical process work along a continuum.
@ drax
“Polarised light appears to interact with certain forms of matter in a different way to unpolarised light. An amplitude-modulated radio transmission is interpreted by crystal radio as voice, when an unmodulated transmission wouldn’t be.”
Your examples do not support the idea of discrete states.
Partial polarization exists and would at different intensities produce the same result. And an unmodulated transmission that occurred at that frequency or amplitude would still be picked up as noise, that’s partially how they did morse code.
If dragon magic was analogous to the former, extremely intense ley magic would still be corruptive, but probably not as much as moderately intense dragon magic that was completely polarized.
If dragon magic was analogous to the later, extremely intense ley magic would partially corrupt, and certain natural phenomena may completely corrupt.
Perhaps rather than saying all magic is dragon magic it is more appropriate to say there is ley magic, dragon ley magic, dragon magic, ley mist magic, ley mist dragon, dragon mist, and whatever other things we haven’t discovered.
All processes by definition have half-way points. They may not be fully stable in them. But they have to exist.
There has to be more variations that we assume.
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