“introduce Armor penetration” cough cough
They kinda have that, its called siphon. Its damage ignores armor but cannot crit. Leeching and blood sigils are one way to get it for a hit for most classes, sadly rev is the only class that reliably has this effect via heal and traits.
Necros running blood magic can give a party buff that allows all attacks to siphon.
Mesmers can already build enough active defence and self-healing to frontline if we really, really wanted to. We don’t need more bunkering ability, we need something that turns open world content into something other than a miserable chore.
Frontline also implies doing damage.
Frontline reaper, guards, warriors can do much more damage than a frontline mesmer.
Its also a pve problem. The same issues mesmer has with tagging enemies , and sustaining damage, prevent it from being an adequate frontliner.
So then I think its settled.
Mesmers want some sort of build like Reaper that allows them to frontline.
No, you don’t get it at all. We want a “build” that doesn’t make PvE a chore because of kitten damage.
por que no los dos
i don’t have any problems with defensive buff…..although i’d rather get an offensive buff, but i will settle for anything as long as we get one(and the thief as well) just for the sake of equality among classes.
@Artaz – i’m looking for a buff that appears with a unique trait icon like the ones i mentioned in the original post, what your suggesting looks good but imagine that changes the devs would have to make just to put your idea in place. Other buffs from other classes like Empower Allies: +150 power, Spotter: 150 precision….these are easy to plug in the game, thats why i am pushing for the devs to put one in place for engis with little effort to them.
His and your idea are not incompatible.
Honestly I don’t if they would do it, and it seems OP but why not CC duration?
Concussive force:
Basically each knockdown from slick shoes would do 250 damage to the breakbar rather than 200. Which is quite a lot for you, and even more when you add in the cc of the team.
Is endurance recharge boosted above the 15%?
So then I think its settled.
Mesmers want some sort of build like Reaper that allows them to frontline.
2.75s charge time, 1s cd between uses.
With quickness, 2.75s charge time is lowered to 1.83s charge time.
With alacrity, 1s cd between uses is lowered to .75s.
A full cycle is 1.83s charge followed by 2 .75s cooldowns for a total cycle time of 3.33 seconds.
What? (2.75/2)+(.75*2)=2.875 or 3.26 (with three charges) What am I missing?
One thing i want to change is make tablet spawn when i change to ventari legend. Why i need to press 2 button to start use ventari skills?
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Healing_skill
Every healing skill can be denied. Instant cast mantras require 2.75 seconds to charge. Withdraw has a cast time under .25 seconds preventing use during cc. Infuse light requires you to cast facet of light.The tablet can only be summoned when not cced becaue like withdraw it has a cast time under .25 seconds.
They won’t make rev the only class to heal without preparation or cast.
Given the amount of healing and functionality of Project Tranquility, it looks more like a weak version of soothing mist so there would not be such issue. If you speak about the "on using healing skill" effects, then it could be changed to only summon it without activating a skill, the real skill being Ventari’s Will.
...
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_Centaur_Stance
The only non instant skill is project tranquility. It’s that way for a reason. Every time you swap to ventari or destroy the tablet you open yourself up to counterplay.
They will never give us the ability to heal ourselves the second we enter ventari
(edited by Daniel Handler.4816)
@pyro can you confirm that with alacrity and quickiness spamming mop is 2.375s?
If we got a dps spec that allowed us to frontline, like a quasi reaper, but put out less overall damage in group support would people be okay with that?
@xyonon
Then if dps isn’t reduced by moving targets, lack of use is because of complicated rotations.
An average engie will put out the condi damage of an average necro. A superior engie surpasses a superior necro. Gaining the ability to buff team dps will result in them nerfing engie’s personal dps to compensate/satisfy QQ. Underdog classes hate when optimal damage dealers are buffed. Necro would complain the same way power specs complain about staff ele.
This is what I didn’t explain well enough in previous posts. The current offensive party buffs are power, precision, ferocity, life steal. Condition damage and condition duration are the only unique ones left that affect dps. But these stats directly benefit your optimal build, so you won’t get them without nerfs.
It’s a defensive buff or no buff at all. And defensive party buffs are never meta regardless of spec (as op requested for this buff). I could see them making adrenal implant aoe. I could see them putting some sort of vitality enhancement in invention. Either way its unlikely to go in the meta raid build and if it does it will also come with subsequent nerfs to prevent creeping further over necro.
Moreover, as you joined the discussion in the mesmer forums, you know party buffs increase viability but not personal enjoyment. Mesmers wanted more personal dps, but ended up enhancing the group. You want to get out of quadruple kit, but the buff probably won’t change that.
If this is just about symmetry and enhancing non meta lines that go for it. But small party buffs come with consequences.
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We may get a dps elite spec but it won’t be better than Chronomancer.
I hear time and again we have the lowest personal dps but through supporting others we do the dps of 2/3/4 extra players.
So whenever I do Living Story I’m supposed to drag along with me 2-4 extra players just because I’m a Mesmer? So their dps counts as my dps? Do I see their numbers in my damage box? I suppose you think that those 20 people that you made a portal for in WvW roaming count towards your dps too? What about when you are a commander? All those people count toward your total damage?
However I may be misunderstanding the situation.
Right on the money, baby.
Perhaps. But will you be satisfied if the spec is only useful in solo content?
Please no more F5s for Mesmer. New F1-F4. F5 with no CD would be a nightmare to balance with heal on shatter. Also the F5 modifying all existing aoe skills would be a nightmare to balance in general with how many different skills it would affect.
You want to know what would actually make mantras viable? Basically a tempest elite spec. All of our Fns are now channeled abilities that pulse something over time. A new trait will give us stability whenever we use channeled abilities. Another trait could decrease cast time of channeled abilities by 20-30% (stacks with quickness). This would make sword 2, scepter 3, gs1 and mantras from base class stronger DPS. Would weaken channeled blocks and sword 2 defensively though. That’s why it’s a trait you could swap on and off with another trait that’s worth bringing.
F5 wouldn’t be a shatter any more than entering Astral form is.
I disagree with the initial logic. A DPS mesmer elite spec would only require us to do about as much DPS as a staff ele or DD. A little less than that would be fine. It may not be taken for record runs but wouldn’t be shunned too bad. Another way of looking at it is that you would still bring a chrono/druid/PS and then the extra DPS spots could be filled with other DPS mesmers if desired. Alternatively, the chrono and new elite spec could work together with SoI and timewarp on both builds.
However, chrono holds back a new mesmer DPS elite spec in a more insidious manner. A new mesmer elite spec will still have phantasms being a major source of damage. Maybe not 50-60% but it’ll still be a huge chunk unless drastic changes are made. Alacrity/quickness from the chrono wouldn’t affect that portion of the DPS mesmer but Chrono is extremely likely to stay in a raid comp even with the new round of elite specs.
Edit: Stuff like frost spirit and gotl will also not affect phantasms. Any new elite spec buffs that aren’t raw stats in general. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, all of our damage modifiers need to affect phantasms.
Your second point is the source of the initial logic. We would have to do as much damage as a staff ele on buffs,
The Synergist is all about focusing aoe skills into potent single target action. Naturally it’s weapon is the mainhand dagger as daggers focus their force to the tip of the blade . Its utility are shouts. Its new mechanic is called compression.
Compression: every 5 attacks/buffs/debuff/heals gain a rainbow colored synergy pip. When you hit 3 pips hit f5 (which is called “sum of its parts”). Your next 3 aoes are altered.
The rules for aoe modification:
Compressing Shatter:
What this looks like for mantra:
OP interactions:
The dagger:
Skill 1 is Misdirection
The shouts:
“anger”:
Ill add more info later including how the heal shoot joy works
We may get a dps elite spec but it won’t be better than Chronomancer.
I hear time and again we have the lowest personal dps but through supporting others we do the dps of 2/3/4 extra players.
Meaning a new spec would have to make us do twice as much damage as top tier dps in order to cut it in a raid. That isn’t going to happen.
But this is not a problem for me. There are buttons for squad particpation to make supporting fair. I like Chronomancer. To nerf it so another elite spec is competive is deplorable.
However I may be misunderstanding the situation. Thoughts?
edit: think of the opportunity cost to team dps when bring a chronomancer vs a new dps spec.
(edited by Daniel Handler.4816)
One thing i want to change is make tablet spawn when i change to ventari legend. Why i need to press 2 button to start use ventari skills?
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Healing_skill
Every healing skill can be denied. Instant cast mantras require 2.75 seconds to charge. Withdraw has a cast time under .25 seconds preventing use during cc. Infuse light requires you to cast facet of light.
The tablet can only be summoned when not cced becaue like withdraw it has a cast time under .25 seconds.
They won’t make rev the only class to heal without preparation or cast.
Here’s your filthy video. You’ll have to analyze it yourself.
Let it be known that I was the first to respond to this thread way back a year or so ago, and I still think people are going to be using their superior, regular elites!
So what is going to happen?
People are going to run one of their superior Elites and not worry about it, I imagine.
This is probably why I never bothered to test and or record it back then!
Also, still one of my fav GW2 moments of all time
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsoDHA83YuM<3 Vinasta ;D
So you could chain ten seconds of prowl with snow leopard.
[snip]
Okay. Here is my last ditch attempt to help. My frustration stems from you underselling or overselling party bufffs. But first I assume you have heart of thorns so here is a tool you can use to brainstorm something truly unique https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Special_Forces_Training_Area
I am going to post a clearer explanation of the oversell/undersell later, till then have fun testing out ideas in the training area.
(edited by Daniel Handler.4816)
I personally prefer a hard to play profession, but it also has to be rewarding.
To simply boost the dps over other professions is the wrong solution, since you would just start stacking really good engis then. And that’s what lead to the Ele nerfs in the first place. It’s unhealthy for the game.
Party wide buffs are exactly what we need and yes it would indeed help power and condi Engi. I don’t see any problem about condi Engi vs mobile targets – the only skill that trule loses dps is Napalm and that one is only 1400-1800 of our total dps. If you swap it for Rocket Boots and spam Rocket Kick instead of Napalm and Incendiary Ammo, it’s even just a 700-900 dps loss.
I thought I recognized your name.
I based my claim in this thread off of your work.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/All-Skills-Damage-for-Power-and-Condi-3/first
Specifically this table.
https://dviw3bl0enbyw.cloudfront.net/uploads/forum_attachment/file/221474/Condition_Engineer.png
“The DpiSCT including Quickness shows the true strength of a skill. This is the most important value of them all and shows how mighty a skill really is. You should always priorize your skills according to this to achieve max DpS.”
You said that, and that is why I said condi engi has problems vs mobile targets. You took Grenadier over Glass Canon, giving up 5% dps to make the Grenades more useful against moving enemies. But there is no Grenadier like trait to make it easier for skills to land all of their pulses.
Raid inclusion is based on maximizing DpS. Because of mobile targets you lose
I think Mesmers/Chronomancers are the most powerful. I mean lets face it… Altering time, space, and reality itself is extremely powerful versus summoning the dead or using Elemental magic.
They’re not actually as powerful as some people are saying. Most mesmers only affect the perception of space and time, not space and time itself, at least according to a few off-hand remarks by devs.
Oooooooooooo! So are you saying they make it seem like they are removing themselves from the time line when casting [Continuum Split]? How do you justify the boon quickness? Are you saying mesmers create the illusion of Quickness and alacrity?
The actual dev quote, if you were wondering:
For both story and gameplay, actual time travel is a quagmire that has to be handled carefully.
I see the chronomancer as much more a case of manipulating the local perception of time rather than manipulating time itself. The Continuum Split skill text specifically mentions a rift in time and space continuum, but I’m like you in that I take that to mean “continuum” as a perceived possibility that the chronomancer is working with rather than an actual time jump. It visually appears to let the chronomancer rewind time, but functionally it’s a highly advanced, specialized mesmer clone that players directly control for a short duration while their real body is phased out—thus any damage, etc. happens to the Continuum Split clone (who disappears when the skill expires), and the PC resumes control of their real body unchanged from the moment they activated the skill (although they do retain any XP, etc. they garnered while in Continuum Split).
It’s funny how a fresh face can add to a discussion. These questions and that quote would have been useful two year ago.
Regardless it’s clear from the quote he intends for chill/alacrity to be like depressants/stimulants to whatever role-playing equivalent of cooldowns. And slow/quickness is merely affecting mental speed.
The debate over natural disaster vs manpower is futile without more information. But I can now agree that manpower has always beaten natural disaster. So an ele would have to do something very unnatural (thaumanova level) to defeat the undead.
Here is an npr article about how flies seemingly predict the future. Aka real life “quickness”
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=94110463
I would listen to it rather than read the transcript as the text unfortunately has some typos.
Question. Why do you guys want such a buff when condi engie has been meta in fractals/dungeon/raids for a long time now?
Simple, no one wants to play a 20+ button rotation for DPS (condi meta Engineer is 4 kits) that is still less DPS than Elementalist and Thief that anyone can do with a 3rd as many button pushes and timer rotation memorizes and still lacks the unique"r" flavor that other classes bring via unique offensive buffs.
Engineers don’t get asked to be invited to raids by default. You need to prove your value and practice like crazy to get to a peak performance level since the DPS is not top tier (without a ton of practice) and even then it is handicapped behind at least two other classes. Add to the lack of class-specific offensive/defensive utility, well, you now see.
DPS Charts: Link
Agreed
REALLY? This is what I thought from the beginning. I asked you several times if a unique buff was what you wanted. And now you have just proven how useless this discussion was.
A unique buff does not equal changing the mechanics behind your class so they are less unique. Alacrity didn’t get rid of Illusions, your class will always have kits and no weapon swap. I now realize this entire discussion was just to brainstorm a way for you to play a build that is not as intensive as quadruple kit. So here are some classes you could play instead.
How about necro?
The only difference between the rotation in
http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Engineer_-_Condition_Raids
Vs
http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Reaper_-_Viper is that the Necromancer has a set order. Both have too many buttons.
Engies who can master their toolbox have the highest condi dps in the game, those who can’t do less than a condi necro . You might not like this class because they have less power dps than a thief or elementalist.
So option one is to play Necro for less rewards than people with the skill to play engie.
How about mesmer?
http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Chronomancer_-_Utility_DPS_
Their meta build has lots of button presses too. Fortunately the number of skills is far less though (they go for a chain of fast recharging skills).
Now I must warn you, they don’t have top tier condi dps like engie. In fact they have the lowest condi and power dps. But that’s okay because they make up for it by boosting everyone else’s. They also have a unique party buff called alacrity.
Now what is alacrity for?
Well when ANET saw that engie was top condi dps, and ele was top power dps they decided to widen the gap even more. How? Well alacrity speeds up rotations of skills with cooldown. So Chronomancers are asymmetrically beneficial to classes with a “20+ button rotation” and longer cooldowns like, you guessed it, engie and ele.
But isn’t that useful?
Well it is if you like playing support. By heavily boosting those at the top they now can’t have a viable power OR condi build in the dps war because an ele/engie/raid under alacrity/perma quickness puts out the dps of four extra players. And they won’t build a spec for mesmer that has that kinda damage.
Mesmer is option two if you want to use even less skills and have top tier condi/dps by boosting the classes that have always been better than you. (you are going to want to click the squad participation button. As your personal dps will be way under anyone else in the raid)
If you still want to be an engie and the issue is specifically beating the skill ceiling of condi necro in raids then I actually do have a solution for that.
For vale guardian and moving targets elementalists uses a fresh air d/wh build over staff. You need a change on that level because the dps from your rotation is largely due to fields. You need an elite spec that strongly buffs static discharge and/or makes all ground effects hover around the engie rather than being applied to the area. party buffs will not boost condi engie over condi necro on mobile targets.
(edited by Daniel Handler.4816)
They removed the unevadable part then added it back
The pull is a sequence skill. On launch the spear was unevadable. That changed.
(edited by Daniel Handler.4816)
Why do Dragon Hunters have a pull that works from day one and thieves have been stuck with a buggy beyond belief Scorpion Wire since launch?
Simple, because ANet hates Thief people.
The pull didn’t work from day one. You just just assumed the unevadable behavior was an intentional buff.
All classes still have bugs.
I’m not really certain I can agree. Basing OH pistol’s utility based on Daredevil’s Bound is short-sighted.
When the next round of power creep comes to the thief in the form of the next elite specialization, what then? Will all X/P players, particularly S/P, find themselves at a loss since the new shiny will prevent them from gaining stealth access and thus be stuck with a not-as-viable kit? Then what? Ask for changes to make BP just innately give stealth? Then what of OH dagger? This is obviously a slippery slope.
What slope?
All other classes gained elite specs that were viable with their weapon sets.
Daredevil was no different. P/p is a hybrid set and it would be insulting if both secondary effects of LT and BD were useless to the build (the skills they produce, not the modifiers) . So of course BD has a secondary effect that fits the build. Seems like a compromise given that the secondary effect of BD is useless to condi d/d build.
Any new elite spec would have an aspect relevant to /p builds. It doesn’t have to be stealth. They could make a spec that adds a bounce to all projectiles and another target to all melee skills. They could make a spec that gives access to a fire field.
There are plenty of ways that elite specs can be useful to all sets. What is important is that they don’t make Daredevil less useful to p/p. You don’t know, the next spec could be a healing spec. Not all specs are going to boost dps.
Edit:
This also isn’t even an elite spec issue. Skills 2 and 3 on all /p sets are more useful with BP than IA. And look at those skill 3 abilities again. Notice how only the ones on /p don’t kite (have the potential to alter the position of the player so that it is away from the enemy)? That is because the sets can dps in the smoke field to defend themselves while attacking. This weird idea of making BP into IA is stupid in all game modes.
Its a terrible idea.
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Now I understand what you mean!
Now to clear the things I probably didn’t explain properly.
First off Ventari=Ritualist, ritualist mechanic involves adding the power of a legend of your choice towards the power of the tablet.Secondly from my perspective the discussion is about Ventari/X where X can be any legend,not just Glint.
Side note: I care more about the instances where X isn’t Glint because in Revenant’s current state the core is useless without Herald….so regardless of changes made to Salvation or the numbers on Ventari’s skills, Glint/X will still be op when compared to runing just core legends….at least until the next specialization.
Third point the reason why I recomend that Ritualist=Ventari, is because core specialization features too few balanced legends and too many ghimicky legends, namely:
- Malyx (kitten all trades regarding conditions and master of boon removal – at the cost of defenses)
- Jallis (the pve only legend that has 2 ghimicks in pvp:inspiring reinforcement to secure finishing blow and out of combat casting of elite prior to zerg collisions)
- Ventari the biggest and most fun ghimick in the whole game second only to condi guardian (which is a big,but borring ghimick as far as I am concerned).
I would argue that Shiro is the only balanced legend within Core Revenant, because it features, an offensive utility, a defensive utility, imposible odds which is usefull offensively for the buffs to AA and for speeding cast times and finaly the ability to make all of Shiro’s strong points irelevant by casting Phase Travel to gain a temporary mobility boost. I think we need 1 more legend similar to this for core Revenant….but for now let’s agree to disagree on the whole Ventari=Ritualist and Ventari/Ritualist stuff.
Well if that is your goal then here are the combinations
How would you change this with ritualist?
Be warned the point to revenant is to sustain abilities with lower potency but shorter cooldown/longer duration. To achieve this, energy limits the amount of abilities you can sustain. For example I can get perma projectile destruction with Ventari and hammer, and I can sustain 2k hps on allies with Ventari, I can’t do both at the same time.
i find the idea of swaping P 5 with SB 5 very tempting. Would be a huge change in thief builds changing the “flow”. Don´t think such changes are considdered.
I feel that the mobility fits P 2 even better so rotate skills. SB5 —> P2 --> P5 —> SB5
Would be huge and many would complain D(S)/P is killed with that but i would like it :-)
It would actually make P/x the top kiting weapon .However thats also a nerf to all x/p which combo off the field with 4 or, 1-5 in the case of p/p
It’s a nerf to s/p and p/p which used DD’s bounding dodger to gain access to stealth. The whole reason BD is a leap finisher was intended to buff those sets, not to buff SB.
Great point! I didn’t see this because I was defending P/P but the OP is trying to remove stealth from D/P…sneaky nerfing thief.
That’s was less of sin in my eyes. The greatest injury is preventing the best set (s/p) from having access to stealth using bounding dodger.
Also side note how terribly complicated it would be to have infiltrator’s strike/return/arrow/signet with just one weapon set.
The least he could do is also suggest a name change to infiltrator’s arrow. We can’t be infiltrating all the time.
Question. Why do you guys want such a buff when condi engie has been meta in fractals/dungeon/raids for a long time now?
Simple, no one wants to play a 20+ button rotation for DPS (condi meta Engineer is 4 kits) that is still less DPS than Elementalist and Thief that anyone can do with a 3rd as many button pushes and timer rotation memorizes and still lacks the unique"r" flavor that other classes bring via unique offensive buffs.
Engineers don’t get asked to be invited to raids by default. You need to prove your value and practice like crazy to get to a peak performance level since the DPS is not top tier (without a ton of practice) and even then it is handicapped behind at least two other classes. Add to the lack of class-specific offensive/defensive utility, well, you now see.
DPS Charts: Link
Your link confirms the worry I had in my edit. The condi dps for necro and Druid is noticeably less than engineer.
Given that the buff needs to be unique, the only offensive stat left is condition damage.
As I said. To avoid overbuff, engie would not be able to keep https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pinpoint_Distribution or the trait would replace a different master in firearms.
Either the buff is useless, becaue everyone would still take pinpoint (given that your dps exceeds all other condi builds). Or the buff is harmful, because you lose 100 condi damage to give 150 condi damage to builds with much less condi dps.
Edit: you can also gain healing power, vitality, or condi duration but a unique buff is still useless for high dps. I would recommend getting over the concept, after all Chronomancer has a unique buff but is still bound to a specific build and rotation.
(edited by Daniel Handler.4816)
Question. Why do you guys want such a buff when condi engie has been meta in fractals/dungeon/raids for a long time now?
And is it what you want?
Edit:
To avoid overbuff as engie is top condi dps they would probably exchange https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pinpoint_Distribution with a trait that gives the party 150 condition damage. So your meta build gets nerfed by 100 condi damage and the two other condi builds get 150 more.
I’m not so great at math. How far is the gap between
http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Druid_-_A/T_Condition
http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Reaper_-_Viper_Horror
And http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Engineer_-_Condition_Raids
How many condi builds need to be in the raid so that giving 150 to the party is more dps than you losing 100?
(edited by Daniel Handler.4816)
Sure, but there are so many use scenarios that mantras just don’t end up working well in. Your example here is actually fantastic to illustrate that.
After a shatter burst is when you’ll have quickness and alacrity to help charge your mantra. However, after a shatter burst is also the exact time when the last thing you want is to sit there doing nothing for a few seconds, letting your opponent recover.
The clunkiness inherent to mantras is what makes them awful so much of the time, not necessarily the ability to charge them quickly. They’re a mechanic designed for quick fights that are resolved by the time the charges are expended…in a game where sustain and survival are the top priorities for PvP builds. The pacing enforced by mantras is simply at odds with the pacing that you actually encounter in PvP.
Usually you can make 1 mantra work well if it fits a specific role in your build. Mantra of resolve in an otherwise offensive build lacking cleanse options works because it’s something used as a supplemental utility, and you can recharge it after the fight has concluded. Mantra of distraction works in a highly offensive build or an interrupt build because then it’s either facilitating the rapid conclusion of a fight (through huge burst) or is simply one of multiple options for interrupts, making it non-essential to recharge mid-fight.
Taking more than one mantra starts to seriously disrupt your pacing. When you have that much of your build loaded into mantras, recharging them becomes important to keep your build functioning. This means that if you haven’t completely finished the fight by the time you’ve expended the charges, you need to either disengage or risk being punished for channeling them. As long as this pacing disruption remains inherent to mantras, they will remain unusable together outside of very niche builds and scenarios.
What if one were to use MoP as their auto? Perhaps in a healing build of sorts such as Fay’s Panacea build.
Then your friendly neighborhood thief would go to town headshotting you all game, getting free pulmonary impact procs from the interrupts, and generally making you get very acquainted with the respawn timer.
Edit: Or your friendly neighborhood interrupt mesmer would eat you, or your friendly neighborhood condie warrior would demonstrate just how many condies they can stack.
What if we have stability. I need a second opinion. Ask her yourself if she uses MoP nowadays.
Stability = stab mantra or BD.
Stab mantra means you have no stab when channeling that mantra, but it would give you a couple free channels at least. That could work to an extent, but eventually you’d run into trouble.
BD provides 1 stack of stability. That is not enough for this. 1 stack can be stripped by a single cc, followed by another cc for interrupt. 2 stacks of stab is the minimum to make this work, so you’d have to burn 2 shatters to charge every mantra; totally unsustainable.
Keep in mind that this is all to get a decidedly underwhelming effect. Mantra of pain damage when spam casted is…not good. The maximum healing output from it is negligible compared to the pressure that you see in fights these days, so that’s not really a big deal either. Yeah, you could probably make a build that could semi-reliably charge mantras for a while…but why? To what end would you do this?
Fay hasn’t played GW2 PvP in years btw. She abandoned mantras as a viable build-centric mechanic before that.
Because I’m crazy Pyro and I want to spam mantras until I have 2,000 hps and I can pretend to be a useless Ventari build.
I would love if Ventari would go as an elite specialization…maybe even to the Ritualist on the condition that the mechanic would be to alter the nature of the tablet by infusing it with the power of a different legend.
Like say ….. infuse Ventari’s tablet with Malyx’s demonic energy and turn it into a ranged condi weapon that gives resistance to nearby allies.
Replacing not expanding. Leave elite specs out of it.
But nothing is changed within the actual stance….the only reason why I’d put it at elite is so you can get an F2 that changes the purpose of the tablet – which counters Centaur Stance’s original weakness – being locked out of our selfish abilities (self heal,stun breakers etc)
This doesn’t fix. The core has to not rely on the elite.
But based on the current status of Revenant that is simply not true, the core is useless without the Elite!
Look I agree that there are things that can be done to fix Ventari without making it an elite, but as part of the core using Ventari involves a masive change of playstyle via the mechanic of legend swaping – from selfless Martyr where you sacrifice both self sustain and personal defense in order to sustain the team to either condi masochist (malyx), which for me is basicaly punishing myself by taking on loads of condis with Pain Absorb, selfish bloke (shiro) which restore some of the defenses and self sustain you lost and exploration mode (Jallis).
Basicaly what I am trying to say is that due to the absence of legend swap, classes such as Ranger and Elementalist have the option to create a more balanced set of utilitiess as opposed to Core and Herald Reventant (where the change of playstyle feels like a massive drug induced mood swing) and that by making Ventari part of an elite spec it would be easier to balance the core around the massive change in play style promoted by Ventari.
Almost pointless edit: I apologize to the fans of Jallis who were upset by the labbel I gave it but I have no ideea how else to labbel Jallis for end game
Whatever legend you dream up, it won’t have a healing weapon to replace the loss of shield. Or give perma protection by spamming ventari’s will
Actualy I can…my take on Ritualist involves altering the properties of Ventari’s tablet by chaneling the power of an aditional legend into it….basicaly by channeling both the power of Ventari and Jallis into the tablet, Ventari’s will can be altered to mimic the effects of Ventari’s Will with Bolster Fortification. -thats perma protection fixed now on to the healing weapon – ranged mh dagger with a combo field blast on 3 + a water combo field from whatever legend replaces Ventari in core (yeah I replaced shield with a hipothethic second healing legend for core – I am that dull).
I guess I’m not explaining well enough.
The entire point of this discussion has been to make ventari viable with Glint.
The core not relying on the elite does not mean that running only core specs will be viable. It means that core stances should have a viable spec with every elite spec.
Replacing Glint/ventari with ritualist/ventari is not fixing.
The reason is super obvious.
There’s not much reason they couldn’t make it happen in sPvP. The opportunities to “abuse” the skill are much fewer there.
Besides, Elementalists already have a defensive advantage by fighting near gates (teleports), so when they go down, they can just mist form into safety. The Thief having an offensive counter (or even defensive ability) in the same manner doesn’t seem too far fetched.
Wut. They change numbers between game modes. Not functionality. Also wut.
20 thieves stacking their shadow traps near the door to a structure should not be able to teleport into the lord room if the person triggering the trap goes there.
Fortunately most people in the thread meant making only the destroy trap skill a true teleport.
But again, they aren’t going to buff the escape abilities on a class with 3 dodges and potential perma stealth. Especially not after they specifically made stealth traps, added reveal to engie and guardian, and made the marked debuff to counter these shenanigans. Why would they have done any of those things if they thought thief needed buffs to escape.
(edited by Daniel Handler.4816)
i find the idea of swaping P 5 with SB 5 very tempting. Would be a huge change in thief builds changing the “flow”. Don´t think such changes are considdered.
I feel that the mobility fits P 2 even better so rotate skills. SB5 —> P2 --> P5 —> SB5
Would be huge and many would complain D(S)/P is killed with that but i would like it :-)
It would actually make P/x the top kiting weapon .
However thats also a nerf to all x/p which combo off the field with 4 or, 1-5 in the case of p/p
It’s a nerf to s/p and p/p which used DD’s bounding dodger to gain access to stealth. The whole reason BD is a leap finisher was intended to buff those sets, not to buff SB.
You would think s/p would appreciate being able to teleport so well. They could IA out, heal up, then IS back in having set up the potential for a cheaper escape with IR. 9 initiative, 14 if you include pistol whip.
But is that better than using BP, then BD for stealth, then healing, then TS, then PW? 11 initiative including pistol whip.
I would say absolutely not. In the later you achieve the heal but you also blind, daze, and stun the target. You also have the extra damage from using BD. In the former you trade soft/hard cc for being able to reestablish a point for IR mid combat. If it was ever okay to trade damage/control for evasive potential then s/d or sb would be competing with d/p.
(edited by Daniel Handler.4816)
I would love if Ventari would go as an elite specialization…maybe even to the Ritualist on the condition that the mechanic would be to alter the nature of the tablet by infusing it with the power of a different legend.
Like say ….. infuse Ventari’s tablet with Malyx’s demonic energy and turn it into a ranged condi weapon that gives resistance to nearby allies.
Replacing not expanding. Leave elite specs out of it.
But nothing is changed within the actual stance….the only reason why I’d put it at elite is so you can get an F2 that changes the purpose of the tablet – which counters Centaur Stance’s original weakness – being locked out of our selfish abilities (self heal,stun breakers etc)
Again you are not fixing or expanding, you are replacing.
The topic is making Ventari viable. You are arguing to fix Ventari by creating a new trait line. Do you really think we meant one Ventari builds to be viable and not all?
The entire discussion has been on Ventari as a support legend. Current it’s max healing/support abilities come from salvation/Invocation/Glint. Whatever legend you dream up, it won’t have a healing weapon to replace the loss of shield. Or give perma protection by spamming ventari’s will. So no wonder people ignored you for being off topic.
Telling people you want to fix the support on ventari by adding damage is just as stupid as telling elementalists you want to fix the damage on scepter by adding healing
(edited by Daniel Handler.4816)
This is what I use lately – build that appeared at last ESL-PRO thing…it works ok
Seems like an alright build for the purpose of maintaining high power/healing power. However I believe OP wanted a staff build.
Sure, but there are so many use scenarios that mantras just don’t end up working well in. Your example here is actually fantastic to illustrate that.
After a shatter burst is when you’ll have quickness and alacrity to help charge your mantra. However, after a shatter burst is also the exact time when the last thing you want is to sit there doing nothing for a few seconds, letting your opponent recover.
The clunkiness inherent to mantras is what makes them awful so much of the time, not necessarily the ability to charge them quickly. They’re a mechanic designed for quick fights that are resolved by the time the charges are expended…in a game where sustain and survival are the top priorities for PvP builds. The pacing enforced by mantras is simply at odds with the pacing that you actually encounter in PvP.
Usually you can make 1 mantra work well if it fits a specific role in your build. Mantra of resolve in an otherwise offensive build lacking cleanse options works because it’s something used as a supplemental utility, and you can recharge it after the fight has concluded. Mantra of distraction works in a highly offensive build or an interrupt build because then it’s either facilitating the rapid conclusion of a fight (through huge burst) or is simply one of multiple options for interrupts, making it non-essential to recharge mid-fight.
Taking more than one mantra starts to seriously disrupt your pacing. When you have that much of your build loaded into mantras, recharging them becomes important to keep your build functioning. This means that if you haven’t completely finished the fight by the time you’ve expended the charges, you need to either disengage or risk being punished for channeling them. As long as this pacing disruption remains inherent to mantras, they will remain unusable together outside of very niche builds and scenarios.
What if one were to use MoP as their auto? Perhaps in a healing build of sorts such as Fay’s Panacea build.
Then your friendly neighborhood thief would go to town headshotting you all game, getting free pulmonary impact procs from the interrupts, and generally making you get very acquainted with the respawn timer.
Edit: Or your friendly neighborhood interrupt mesmer would eat you, or your friendly neighborhood condie warrior would demonstrate just how many condies they can stack.
What if we have stability. I need a second opinion. Ask her yourself if she uses MoP nowadays.
Sure, but there are so many use scenarios that mantras just don’t end up working well in. Your example here is actually fantastic to illustrate that.
After a shatter burst is when you’ll have quickness and alacrity to help charge your mantra. However, after a shatter burst is also the exact time when the last thing you want is to sit there doing nothing for a few seconds, letting your opponent recover.
The clunkiness inherent to mantras is what makes them awful so much of the time, not necessarily the ability to charge them quickly. They’re a mechanic designed for quick fights that are resolved by the time the charges are expended…in a game where sustain and survival are the top priorities for PvP builds. The pacing enforced by mantras is simply at odds with the pacing that you actually encounter in PvP.
Usually you can make 1 mantra work well if it fits a specific role in your build. Mantra of resolve in an otherwise offensive build lacking cleanse options works because it’s something used as a supplemental utility, and you can recharge it after the fight has concluded. Mantra of distraction works in a highly offensive build or an interrupt build because then it’s either facilitating the rapid conclusion of a fight (through huge burst) or is simply one of multiple options for interrupts, making it non-essential to recharge mid-fight.
Taking more than one mantra starts to seriously disrupt your pacing. When you have that much of your build loaded into mantras, recharging them becomes important to keep your build functioning. This means that if you haven’t completely finished the fight by the time you’ve expended the charges, you need to either disengage or risk being punished for channeling them. As long as this pacing disruption remains inherent to mantras, they will remain unusable together outside of very niche builds and scenarios.
What if one were to use MoP as their auto? Perhaps in a healing build of sorts such as Fay’s Panacea build.
I’ve always figured that Chosen actually refers to descendants of King Doric, who by virtue of his legacy are capable of having their souls sealed into the bloodstone. It also seems that the Exalted may have ascended, as they referred to having passed the Forgotten’s tests in order to attain their current forms (I like to think they are our characters from GW1, but that’s just me).
As for how ascension pertains to our characters, you could possibly make the argument that our characters already ARE ascended. We’ve seen the Eternal Alchemy, the underpinnings of the Tyrian universe. This could conceivably be equivalent to ascension for all intents and purposes.
As for Lazarus, I think he needs us, though I’m not sure what for yet. Revealing himself must play to his goals somehow. I’m hoping that we’ll wind up finding other Mursaat still alive, potentially ones who are opposed to Lazarus. It wouldn’t surprise me to find out that some Mursaat had no interest in humans or manipulating them, and that the Unseen were merely one faction of the race. I really hope we’ll have some Mursaat allies this go-round.
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Weh_no_Su
If this is accurate then the Emperor should have already achieved, or been training in, Weh No Su when Shiro absorbed his powers.
I think it’s mostly just paranoia combined with people not really understanding how dragons command and control their minions. I suspect it doesn’t help that at first Mordremoth only affected 2 of them (Scarlet and Aerin) and then random Pact members turned, then more and more of them. It probably made it seem like any sylvari could turn against the other races at any moment (or maybe that they’re all ‘sleeper agents’ just waiting for the right moment). Especially to people who don’t know the dragons as well as we/our characters do.
However I don’t think they’re any more trustworthy than the other races. True they can’t be turned into icebrood, branded or risen (although I don’t think anyone gets turned into risen now Zhaitan is dead), but that’s not a matter of trust, as far as we know it’s simply being hit with enough dragon magic (and in the case of risen being dead at the time).
The only remaining dragon that converts minions is Jormag (and possibly the Deep Sea Dragon, we don’t know) and that one only targets male norn. Although we don’t know if that’s the dragons preference or the Sons of Svanir.
I think this just puts the sylvari on an equal footing with the other races. They’re not dragon minions and I suspect the experience may have made at least some of them question the Dream, Ventari’s teachings and everything else that tells them how they should act (or I may have been spending too much time with Canach). Basically they have complete free will now and each individual can decide what to do with their lives.
As they did before some will be good, some will be evil and most will fall somewhere in between. Just like the other races.
I am wondering if the racial memory aspect would produce a more ethical culture. We do know that studies in irl humans have shown people behave more ethically when they think they are being observed. But it is uncertain whether the dream recording all of your experiences has this effect.
We know for certain that all of them (except Malyck) share the same mother. We also know that they create their own family units based upon the empathic connections they have with other Sylvari. Does the knowledge that Mother is always watching strongly affect behavior?
My assumption is probably no, given that Faolain showed greater devotion to Caithe than to the Pale Tree. But then again, all Sylvari are taught Ventari’s teachings before they are born.
Just as a matter of logistics, it is highly improbable that all newborns from other races received the same level of mentorship. Every single Sylvari was taught to do Good and what that entailed. And more and more Sylvari will be born with the racial memory of doing Good/other wisdom.
From that I would assume that that Sylvari are the most trustworthy race
While quickness is obviously helpful for charging mantras, alacrity is actually much less impactful, particularly for mantra of pain. While technically alacrity affects all skills nearly in the same way by reducing cooldowns, the way that skill is used affects how alacrity actually influences it.
In order to get full benefit out of alacrity with mantra of pain, you’ll be spending the vast majority of your time charging it, followed by immediate discharges and then charging again. This leaves rather little time to do anything but charge this mantra, and that’s simply not a viable way to play. On the other hand, if you let it sit off of cooldown while doing other things, alacrity does not benefit it at all.
Compare that to another skill such as chaos storm or tides of time. These skills have long cooldowns, so alacrity will continuously affect them for 20ish seconds after use. Then, these skills are often used shortly after becoming available, meaning that they have a very high amount of time spent recharging, getting maximum benefit from alacrity.
Anyway, I’m getting a little sidetracked. Point is that alacrity and quickness don’t really benefit mantras any more than the rest of our toolkit. Even with quickness, you end up very vulnerable when channeling mantras, and their effects are still generally underwhelming for the sacrifice necessary to use them. Mantras need actual buffs to be viable, not just indirect applications of mechanics.
If you use then charge mantra of pain after a shatter burst then you are speeding up the dps of the skill at least by very little. Just do some theories Pyro.
No.
The way it works now is perfect, and I would focus on reverting the nerfs to your SB instead of this. Get Cluster Bomb’s damage back, and the duration back on poison field. This would make your SB more than just a method for mobility.
As for the D/D brigade….sorry but the current viable iteration of D/D is condi. That build is on the same skill level as the current meta DH builds. Yes I just said Dagger Dagger build is low skill.
They will never buff /p becaue that involves d/p.
With an initiative system the cd on weapon swap is the only thing preventing bad thieves from resetting. If you mess up to the point of needing vertical mobility, you should not be able to re-enter stealth without using a cd.
Especially because they have daredevil.
For example if a dumb DD uses throw gunk and reveals themself they can triple dash away if necessary. But to add vertical movements with self comboed stealth means there is no punishment. They can teleport up to avoid unevadeable walls. And they only have to wait for HD and CaD to come off cooldown before they are back in stealth. Rather than what currently happen when extremely mobility puts a 10 second cooldown on gaining stealth with initative.
I’ve noticed (and I’m sure others have too) the huge amount of synergy between mantras and Chronomancer.
You have quickness for when you need to charge them. And you have alacrity to shorten both the icd between activations and the cd of the skill itself.
I am trying to figure out some way to spam mantra of pain, but I don’t know if it’s worth it.
Has anyone else experimented with mantras and alacrity/quickness?
This seems like a weird idea. But would all Revenants already be considered ascended through Shiro?
I wouldn’t see how. Shiro was never Weh Su Noh that I know of, and definitely had no connection to ascension. Plus being able to tap into the power of an echo of someone’s last doesn’t necessarily give you access to all of their capabilities. I mean the Revenants using Glint’s or Mallyx’s powers are nowhere near as strong as the beings that they channel.
If all Emperors ascended to be Chosen, then wouldn’t Shiro gain that ability upon absorbing energy from the slain Emperor?
If we’re going to call for stomp/rez buffs/nerfs, we’re going to have to be very careful about it.
Be mindful that the slightest buffage/nerfage could result in further imbalance; if stomps are buffed to a point they can out-stomp specialized rez’s, then there will no longer be any point to rezzing.
I think most people here are calling for the abolishment of the specialized stomps and rezzes, especially since they’re not equally distributed among the classes.
Wouldn’t that make Warbanner useless?
I couldn’t tell you the last time I saw someone using it (100% of warriors I’ve played with/against use headbutt), so I’d say it’s already quite useless.
That’s not a fair analysis. You are referring to an elite spec. Look at Mesmer for example, not all of us use the elite well. It goes to show there may be a spec that fits better with banner than otherwise.
If we’re going to call for stomp/rez buffs/nerfs, we’re going to have to be very careful about it.
Be mindful that the slightest buffage/nerfage could result in further imbalance; if stomps are buffed to a point they can out-stomp specialized rez’s, then there will no longer be any point to rezzing.
I think most people here are calling for the abolishment of the specialized stomps and rezzes, especially since they’re not equally distributed among the classes.
Wouldn’t that make Warbanner useless?
[snip]…
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Maguuma_Jungle
The jungle has Mordremoth, it has the Grove, and it has Rata Sum.
Given that the latter two border each other (one is in Caledon Forest the other floats above Metrica Province) do you really think the Asura want to anger the Sylvari? Especially given that Asuran provocation partially led to the Nightmare Court. And that the Wardens still have military outposts on the border from the Zhaitan days.
Maybe with enough resources and time they could strike at the Pale Tree. But definitely not with the Pact Fleet destroyed. Any Sylvari they portal to their death sends information to the Dream and puts the lives of civilian Asura at risk.
(edited by Daniel Handler.4816)
This seems like a weird idea. But would all Revenants already be considered ascended through Shiro?
I think the reason it’s a perceived problem is that “support class” wasn’t really part of our pre-HoT identity. Which is actually something that affected Rangers as well.
It’s not really a bad thing in itself, just an matter of perception.
Ranger has always had support because of its spirits. And its healing spring.
Mesmer was more complicated. It fits the definition of both support and control.
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Team_roles#Support
The issue is that Mesmer is foremost control, then support, then dps.
Maybe the Sylvari would have just retreated into the Grove after learning that they are a breed of Mordremoth? Or launched a full brunt assault against Rata Sum with the aid of other pale trees or other races who had to suffer from Asura hands? Their direct neighbors were not exactly friendly to them, I still don´t know why they are not at war right now. The council of the Asura has a seat for the Inquest, so they are obviously backing them up at least politically and have not accused them of Genocide.
The other trees were unknown – even to the Pale Tree by all indication – until 1325, so there’d be no support. Retreating to the Grove just gives the other races a singular target to assault.
The asura haven’t committed genocide, or attempted such – not even the Inquest. And they kind of are at war with their neighboring hyleks. As for the Inquest being backed by the Arcane Council – as stated by the Head Councillor Flaxx, they support whichever krewe gives the most cost efficient advancement for the asura – in many cases this means the Inquest because they cut corners morally, but when it’s not the Inquest, Flaxx will happily toss them to the curb.
-snip bit on Caithe-
You have an odd interpretation of Caithe.
She’s ignorant of Faolain’s actions until Faolain goes overboard with torture – not killing – Wynne; the event is one of your typical ‘eye-opening events’ for Caithe. Caithe didn’t “do the job for Faolain” at all, given that Faolain was not after killing Wynne – she was after finding out that ‘secret’.
And Caithe is never really about redeeming herself for Wynne’s death – she seems, the entire time, that it was a sad but unavoidable action and while she holds guilt for it doesn’t seek redemption for it. The only time we ever see her wanting redemption is for her actions in HoT, which she is honest about.
Telling Faolain to proverbially kitten off and not interfere with Caithe again is what Caithe does in Edge of Destiny and Twilight Arbor story, when she gets tired of being chased about by Faolain.
The only ones that are all that emotionally unstable in DE would be Eir – who is suicidal because she caused the death of her good friend, Snaff – and Caithe, but only post-HoT. They all had their problems – which for most were caused by Snaff’s death and the circumstances about that – which are solved with the dungeon story mode. After such (starting when they meet up to fight Zhaitan), all that emotional baggage is basically out the window. Unfortunately, ArenaNet decided to dump DE for the second set of emotional baggage that is the biconics so we don’t see that much.
Malomedies was experimented on by Asura. He is a even Luminari and serves as Ambassador and guide, still he was experimented on by the Asura. How much intelligence does it take to understand when a plaint says to you:
“I am in pain, please stop!” ?
The living story clearly shows how a large number of Sylvari, and Sylvari only, were tortured by the Asura. Scientific curiosity was the reason for that, mixed with a healthy dose of cruelty. The asura are a bunch of people I would be really monitoring closely if I were a leader of any other race. They have good people too of course, but those seem usually not to rise very high in their government.This even reinforces my opinion that she is a muppet.
Caithe is the only Sylvari that is amoral. Most are heroic and helpful like Trahaerne or Riannoc, Faolain is ruthless, but Caithe is the only firstborn Sylvari hat has no real opinion on her own and is bound to the other firstborn. She is not even torn to follow Faolain initially, and it took the death of Wynne to make her earnestly question Faolain. Although wiki states that all firstborn are wise, I cannot find any wisdom in Caithe. She is like Riannoc but without bravery and a heart.
The race will get smarter as they grow. Caithe isn’t supposed to be the brightest. She is suppose to learn a lot to help her race. Moreover this racial memory is the reason why the Asura are not are not trying to provoke them.
Caithe, and many Syvlari know of Melomedies’ torture. Since Caderyn founded the Nightmare Court partly in response to this event, I am sure the Asura are just hedging their bets.
In fact the information may or may not already be common knowledge to all Sylvari. Perhaps used in ways to impart Ventari teachings. As they are all taught “Never leave a wrong to ripen into evil or sorrow,” what better way than for Malomedies to explain his forgiveness.
Punishing Sylvari for the actions of the corrupted would tip the scale. Mostly likely sending several into Nightmare, as it helped to do with Caderyn. How many could resist the urge to punish all Asura for the torture of a Firstborn if such hypocrisy were to take place?
Rata Sum is already near Magumma. Do they now also need Caledon Forest to rise up against them?
Moreover, the greatest enemy of the Asura is Primordius. Sylvari have the greatest talent for cleansing/avoiding corruption. They at least need the race alive were they to attempt to reclaim their former home.
(edited by Daniel Handler.4816)
“Receive the Light”: Baseline healing to allies reduced by 25%. Now affects allies around you instead of in front of you. Radius: 400. Scaling to allies from Healing Power increased to 0,4 from 0,2.
“RtL” is terrible in WvW or PvP since you barely ever have time to target it correctly. This new functionality would make it tons better. And let’s face it, nobody uses it in PvE either.http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Guardian_-_AH_Frontliner
I also don’t see the need to turn Receive the Light into Wash the Pain Away.Yet the skill is never mentioned aside from the skillbar whereas Shelter is in several places in the description. That’s the skill that actually belongs to the build. You should read the build before posting.
It’s more a QoL change anyway, but I wouldn’t mind having an actual group healing skill like druids and eles do. Empower doesn’t really cut it. You could give a better suggestion instead of just being salty.
What the hell are you smoking.
“Receive the Light!” ? Shelter for more personal sustain
Is the first sentence after the variants skill bar.
And shelter is mentioned only one other place: “Use Shelter and Renewed Focus to escape damage.”
This is not “several times” in the description. This is once when they are both mentioned to describe variants. And shelter is then mentioned again to describe in general.
Read the build yourself.
RtL is common in WvW shout builds .
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