Maybe I’m short-sighted, but I just don’t see fresh air working with weaver, and at that, I see earth having more if a place with a more hybrid damage output. I’m interested to play with some hybrid specs in a eve environment. Wish water wasn’t such a requirement… f/e/w feels so sexy and was great in the demos, but condo clears are a problem.
Can you post your build? I would think with diamondskin, burning fire, sigils of purity/cleansing, and ether renewal you wouldn’t need water.
Well if the build is PVP it is not good at all. No way to effectively deal with Condi spam fest.
It’s a PvP build. But it’s also a first draft. I like to theorycraft from the extremes. Making something as glassy, or tanky, as possible and polish from there.
From the first revision: Arcane abatement and signet of restoration for ~450hps. Twist of fate, final shielding, and lightning flash to deal with cc/burst.
Here is the second revision:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vFAQJArdnMMAlMg14CeOAM5ilGAToCEA+gFHyrQU4OT/pH1A-jJxTABZfCA0oMgmPAAA2fAA
Went for the defensive Weaver traits. Picked up super speed in air. Slotted ether renewal and sigils of cleansing/purging. Went from scholar to wurm.
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u can not consistently prog air. u can prog it on crit in earth/water/fire and than again if you are in air for double air. and its that moment when you are in double air you will realize the global cd of the other atunements will contradict the fast pace of freshair playstyle.
Weaver is perfect for fresh air. Unlike rock solid, electrical discharge works on double attument. And traits like elements of rage seem tailored to the playstyle.
I haven’t worked out the rotation yet. But you can consistently proc air every 2 seconds. Survivability comes from utilities, and the arcane abatement trait (which also seems to work on double attument)
Version 2.0 http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vFAQJArdnMMAlMg14CeOAM5ilGAToCEA+gFHyrQU4OT/pH1A-jJxTABZfCA0oMgmPAAA2fAA
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This thread is for consolidated feedback on the aesthetics of Mirage. In other words how things look and sound, not their viability/function.
Example: The Mirage sometimes shouts “mirror mirror made of sand.” Please remove this Disney reference.
Mirrors
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Mirage Advance feels bad because of the 0.75s cast time and requiring you to be in range of the target.
Skills that function similarly are: Guardian Sword2 (target blink + damage/effect), Thief Sword2 (target blink + attack + return), both of which do NOT require you to be in range and have no cast time.
Additionally, with Axes of Symmetry and Illusionary Ambush, when placed out of melee range of a target, you will:
A: Not always be facing your target (your clones will).
B1: Not have time to react similarly to a clone (face target->run at target->auto attack)
OR (in case of Ambush)
B2: Not automatically use your Ambush on the target (your clones all will).This seems to happen due to facing issues and can mostly be resolved by:
A: Always attempting to place all units within weapon range of the focus target.
B: Always face focus target.Note: Neither A nor B alone will completely resolve the issue of losing your surprise action.
And while it is possible for clones to be out of range and you not to, they will ALWAYS instantly run towards the target and proceed to auto attack/ambush. Considering you aren’t guaranteed to face your target, it is not always possible to mimic that.
Facing backwards is so annoying. I thought I was crazy but I’m glad/sad to see its affecting other people too.
I should never have to mash the 1 key.
A video game is supposed to be dynamic and fun. Moving awkwardly to collect objects on the ground is neither. It is hated across all professions.
Rangers hate forage. Dragonhunters hate trap fragments. Ventari hate staff fragments.
Pickup skills only work when players don’t need to change how the move.
Ventari fragments and conjure weapons don’t make players work to use them. The former can be spammed to blanket the area, the later can be cast next to an ally/oneself without delay. They aren’t awkward.
If it’s unbalanced for mirage shards to blanket the area then change the mechanic. Rework the concept.
Waiting for things to appear, running (even with super speed) in predictable paths is torture to the fast pace of mesmer.
All traits that mention shroud still work with the elite spec.
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The highest I could get was 25ish. I used skirmishing, WS, and soulbeast. Rune of Thorns and viper amulet. Bonded with forest spider. And spammed poison gas, viper’s nest, vulture stance, one wolf pack, and the auto/poison skills on d/d.
I’m not used to ranger. I still need to test whether the soulbeast skills share a cooldown with the pet you absorb. Maybe I did a sub par rotation.
Has anyone theorycrafted a condi life steal soulbeast and wants to share their ideas?
Revenants already had access to permanent alacrity before the last balance change.
The problem was the build they had to run was useless besides the alacrity. Chrono provides a lot more than just alacrity and as long as revenant doesn’t provide the same amount of utility (or high dps so another class can provide the utility) they are not a mesmer replacement.
No they didn’t. Natural harmony has an energy cost. Without the new elite spec you can at best sustain alacrity for 75% of the time.
My concern was uniqueness not replacement. I am not familiar with the Raid standards. However I do know that Renegade has very good might application. It can reduce condi damage to allies. It can make allies life steal and bleed on hit. And it has very good dps.
I also know (if my math is right) that Firebrand can grant allies perma quickness.
Distortion share is unique to Mesmer. But now there is nothing unique about Chronomancer.
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You all need to read the trait lines for Renegade. Invocation is essential. Fury and crit rate are a huge part of the elite spec.
For instance https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blood_Fury
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Orders_from_Above
+
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Righteous_Rebel
+
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Serene_Rejuvenation
Correct me if I’m wrong. But a Renegade can chain natural harmony> swap legend> OFA> swap back to ventari > repeat, and gain perma alacrity on five targets.
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As far as I can tell none of the mantras were nerfed. They simply had numbers reshuffled to account for the on charge effects. Yes the recharge is excessive, but waiting for reloads is unnecessary.
It seems count recharges are affected by alacrity. As a result the first charge can restored if its spent during a continuum split. Probably part of the reason why harmonious no longer exists.
I wonder how long those “Mirage Mirrors” will stay up for?
If it’s permanently until we touch them then that could be really nice.And can we really res/stomp while dodging? I assume that’s all speculation, but if we can that would be quite great for PvP.
Edit: Just saw Bog Otter’s interview. Yeah being able to dodge without interrupting casts is quite amazing. Being able to 100% cast something is quite big.
That was my worry. Hopefully they have thought that part through given they buffed the duration of Ventari fragments.
Isn’t this the same nonsense as ventari/dragonhunter fragments. Having to run around touching mirages seems frustrating, especially when our dodge doesn’t move us.
To be clear, I don’t think the condie application that we’ve seen so far even flirts with op, especially considering how potent the condie application of classes is already. What WP did to the target golem was rather unimpressive by the standard of target golem condie loading, any good condie class would blow that out of the water. The strong aspects of mirage are the retargeting and detarget with the extra mobility. That one stunbreak on dodge trait is busted too.
So you are working on another Immortal Mesmer build? Distortion + blur + mirage?
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It isn’t a true portal. It has a ground targeted casting range of 900. Meaning you cannot use it to go between inner and outer in wvw, jumping puzzles, etc. It is just a two way shadowstep.
I don’t think it is unknowable. It is a pretty important part of the lore. Either we have some idea now, or the writers are sure to tell us.
Um… why is it important? They were asleep, and now they’re awake and trying to kill us. Why do we need to know how they stayed alive? Did you ever ask how Sauron existed years later? Or any of the other Sealed Evils in a Can? They just did, and it’s not important why because we’re going to kill them.
Also, magic. Magic is the answer to anything that doesn’t make complete sense.
Much of the plot revolves around the Elder Dragons. Omadd’s machine indicated they are essential to balance of the world. As the story continues to delve into that topic I imagine we will learn more.
Omadd’s machine indicated that the dragons were important, not that they were essential. You also seem to put a lot of value in a 2 minute clip from 3 years ago. The origin of the dragons isn’t important to the story, and possibly will never be revealed. While on that topic, the sylvari are also not the answer to everything. Try to realize this in future discussions.
“On that topic” by which I mean completely unrelated to the OP, if you want to be patronizing make sure its selective. This is the lore forum, we have had entire discussions over less than 2 minute clips from 3 ago. I have not been part of them all, but I know most of the people in this thread have at one time questioned snippets.
Of course, I was part of the threads I created, including whichever Sylvari/Pale Tree topic you seem to be referencing. To my knowledge you either contributed a little or not at all to any of those discussions. Were Drax, Konig, or AaronA to tell me I should “try” something, I would give it more respect. You on the other hand are a kitten, making suggestions on behalf of people that never asked, over beliefs I do not hold.
If you want to kitten you have to do the time. When Konig loses his patience in the midst of a long discussion, it is understandable. When you become an off-topic kitten in under three posts it is unacceptable. Try to practice that in future discussions.
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@Daniel: Because, as said time and time again (seriously we’re just repeating ourselves now, the answer to everything you bring up is the exact same thing as before), the vision is influenced by Scarlet. Remnants of her vision are left – the path and the dialogue – but what we witness is a modern view of that path, with echoes of the past (literally in this case) going in because this is not the physical reality but a metaphysical state of consciousness.
Was it repetition or clarification? Your explanation was much less meaningful before you described the updated path in full. I accept your current conclusion.
I don’t think it is unknowable. It is a pretty important part of the lore. Either we have some idea now, or the writers are sure to tell us.
Um… why is it important? They were asleep, and now they’re awake and trying to kill us. Why do we need to know how they stayed alive? Did you ever ask how Sauron existed years later? Or any of the other Sealed Evils in a Can? They just did, and it’s not important why because we’re going to kill them.
Also, magic. Magic is the answer to anything that doesn’t make complete sense.
Much of the plot revolves around the Elder Dragons. Omadd’s machine indicated they are essential to balance of the world. As the story continues to delve into that topic I imagine we will learn more.
@castle you absolutely have the right to call me out. But I will not apologize for the accusation. My obligation is to clarify but it is not a one way street. Moreover you are asking on behalf of a third party.
I am not an authority figure. But if you are going to advocate over tone and misunderstandings, you should check yourself first. I have made no contradiction, nor has anything been objectively proven regarding ALITD. Read Drax’s summary of the argument if you still don’t get it.
I’m not going to call you on blatant lies, nor refer to you as a strawman. But you are a hypocrite.
@drax this discussion is over. Thank you for your contribution. We need more info.
Unlike real food, magic doesn’t hold nutrients to extract. Magic doesn’t change when it leaves the Elder Dragons during hibernation – just when they create corruption.
No extraction, no devalue.
No devalue, can be re-consumed without loss.
Now, corrupted magic might be another matter entirely, but we do not know if they “re-consume corruption”. However, given Taimi’s recent Episode 2 “reveal” about magic and the Elder Dragons’ draconic energies, I don’t think that it fundamentally changes when used to corrupt things either.
If it doesn’t contain nutrients how do they survive?
The specifics of the how is pretty unknowable, it is magic after all. Elder Dragons don’t have to follow the same rules of biology as normal animals, they are an embodiment of magic.
I don’t think it is unknowable. It is a pretty important part of the lore. Either we have some idea now, or the writers are sure to tell us.
Unless Elder Dragons are bound by some metaphysical law, they would not hibernate without reason. If the lack of magic in the world inspires their sleep, then its consumption must be key to their survival. They are perfect recyclers but they are still mortal.
Moreover if this truly is a closed system, won’t the world eventually run out of magic?
I do not know of any methods for the benign extraction of magic. Even if we use Aurene to gather magic from non-living sources, eventually all of it will be trapped in the flora and fauna of tyria.
In our reality we talk about possible methods of recycling that will last until the death of the universe. But I don’t know if Tyria has that level of entropy.
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@konig If the path is updated why would we hear the same dialogue? You said we were not replaying her vision. The PC is not necessarily sylvari. With no connection to the Dream the Pale Tree cannot speak to us from afar any more than Mordremoth could.
I’m not going to apologize for my own cynicism. But I will try to avoid misunderstandings in the future. An online forum removes body language, facial expressions, and tone. Made up topics strain the divide between literal and metaphorical. We all can do better.
The Dream does gather particularly traumatic experiences, but not repeat trauma. This is why the Nightmare Court tortures people and why they eventually need new victims.
The Pale Tree’s knows everything that is uploaded by Sylvari. When she realised what Scarlet was doing that is an indication that some or all of the experience was transfered to the Dream, and thus brought to her attention. There is no hive mind. It is possible the Pale Tree used some alternative mechanism, but I will go with our current understanding.
Unlike real food, magic doesn’t hold nutrients to extract. Magic doesn’t change when it leaves the Elder Dragons during hibernation – just when they create corruption.
No extraction, no devalue.
No devalue, can be re-consumed without loss.
Now, corrupted magic might be another matter entirely, but we do not know if they “re-consume corruption”. However, given Taimi’s recent Episode 2 “reveal” about magic and the Elder Dragons’ draconic energies, I don’t think that it fundamentally changes when used to corrupt things either.
If it doesn’t contain nutrients how do they survive?
Even with hibernation, life requires sustenance. The Elder Dragon seem to be surviving off of their own extrusions. How is this possible?
There is a difference between the Pale Tree only having access to Sylvari Dream info, and the Dream exclusively receiving information from Sylvari.
But here’s a thing that disproves your idea. The knowledge of the source of Orr. No sylvari knew about it at the time. Thus the information that the Pale Tree gains from the Dream is not exclusive to sylvari sources because no sylvari knew about the source of Orr.
This follows the definition of a strawman because A: it is misrepresentation, and B: it is very easy to disprove. I know what the White Stag is, and I believe there are non-sylvari connected to the Dream.
You missed the keyword in the strawman definition. Intentional. Drax has clearly stated that’s how they interpreted your argument and said if there was any misrepresentation to please point it out. That is NOT the stance of someone intentionally strawmanning. That is the stance of someone attempting genuine discourse and simply misunderstanding, not intentionally misrepresenting.
I too misunderstood your argument as talking about where the Dream gets information from, so I know from personal experience that it wasn’t an intentionally malicious attempt to discredit you, it was a genuine misunderstanding.
I can’t go back in time to withdraw the accusation, even if I recognize their stance in the present.Not only is this an online forum, we are also talking about things that don’t exist. We all should be in the habit of asking for clarity, myself included.
I believe in this instance the offender was the word “where”. It can refer to origin, but also to immediate location.
The discussion has also somewhat derailed, partially because of my desire to prove alternatives, and partly because of the nature of the lore itself.
I can constrain the Pale Tree’s limitations however I want but there will always be the will of the Dream.
It doesn’t matter whether ALITD is from the future or non sylvari because the Dream could always bestow whatever knowledge it pleased. Proving the Sylvari only section means nothing to the overall argument.
All we know is that the Pale Tree realized what Scarlet was doing. And from our current understanding, that means some sort of information regarding the All was communicated over the Dream.
I would assume that indicates the experience is traumatic enough for upload, but it could be the Dream just said “hey Pale Tree, Caera is looking at something bad.”
Moreover, even if it could be uploaded and synthesized like the OP scenario, perhaps it’s unnecessary because of some unknown lore (e.g the all is already present in the Dream or Pale Tree)
What I hope is that the lore concerning the Dream is explored further in the game. What knowledge does it hypothetically contain? How can we access that?
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You’re stuck on being unable to separate “same path” from “same vision”. It’s the same path, but not at the same time – so things have changed, but we’re going along the same “route” to witnessing The All at the end that Scarlet had taken. It’s just that, because time has progressed (by 7 years!), the appearance of that route has changed.
If you walk down a street one day, which has children playing in sprinklers, then come back 7 years later, you’re not going to see those same children playing in those same sprinklers. That may not even happen if you walk down that same street the very next day.
Omadd’s Machine is not a replay button for video footage recorded by Scarlet. It’s more akin to a ride on a track – same start, same end – which Scarlet had laid down when she first entered the machine. The start is not The All but a barrier to cross before one can witness The All, which we cross during the vision itself.
And the thing is that the vision we saw does “exactly resemble Scarlet’s” – but it’s not a duplicate. Resemblance is not “exactly the same” but “similar to”, and that’s what we see – the general placement of things are more or less the same, but the events are not the same.
The very first thing she see is a planetary body then the Pale Tree. The very first thing we see is the Pale Tree, then we see a planetary body. If it was the same path different time the order should be the same.
That’s twice you’ve accused me of strawmanning. I’m honestly not sure how.
Strawman (definition): “an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent’s real argument.”
My understanding of your position is this: “The Pale Tree only has access to information through the Dream that only came from sylvari.”
[snip]
If there is any misrepresentation of your position, please point it out.
Nothing you have put forward provides evidence for your core claim: that the Dream exclusively receives information from sylvari. In fact, we’ve been explicitly told that there are non-sylvari connected to the Dream, which suggests the opposite.
There is a difference between the Pale Tree only having access to Sylvari Dream info, and the Dream exclusively receiving information from Sylvari.
This follows the definition of a strawman because A: it is misrepresentation, and B: it is very easy to disprove. I know what the White Stag is, and I believe there are non-sylvari connected to the Dream.
@Castle. There have been no contradictions. Perhaps I wrote poorly, or maybe you didn’t read properly. Your concept of objective fact and blatant lies perturbing at best.
But I think I can clear up your misunderstanding. This entire discussion is about the Sylvari, and the Pale Tree.We are discussing the section of the Dream the Sylvari upload to. And we are discussing the other sources of information available to the Pale Tree. There are other sections of the Dream. But they are not accessible on demand by the Sylvari or the Pale Tree. They may experience them, but that is at the will of the Dream, and not a reliable way to go about the OP scenario.
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Please don’t strawman. I limited my discussion to areas of the dream the sylvari and pale tree have shown access to. That is why A Light in the Darkness is being discussed.
-Snip-
No one is discussing where the knowledge in the rest of the Dream comes from. It’s whether we can get to it.
Considering that you said this earlier
We already know that the Pale Tree teaches them language and other skills in the Dream. We are discussing what knowledge the Pale Tree has given to the Firstborn and where she got it from. No on is saying the Firstborn were born tabula rasa.
Emphasis mine, you were talking about where the knowledge is obtained from.
My Google Drive is a repository of accessible information. I can upload from my computer, or the Internet. And Google can do the same without my permission.
Here is a scenario:
How can I fix the situation?
Drax’s strawman is me believing I uploaded all content in Drives and on the Internet. It is simply not the case.
I want to hack into the professors drive but it isn’t the most reliable option. I fully agree I should work on my hacking skills, but is that the fastest method?
Like any good academic coach you ask me how I study and you gain information on what resources I have access to.
Let’s say I mention a shared folder for the students in the class where we upload everything the professor returns.
Do you tell me to keep trying to hack the professors Drive?
No.
You tell me to keep studying, and you add the uncorrected answer keys to the process. Hacking is when all other options are exhausted.
It’s possible the majority of test takers were wrong. But at least we have more information.
We don’t fully know what the Pale Tree has but we know she can access this emotional information of this type.
Everyone is sharing notes and she is hogging it all.
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How I’ve been interpreting it is that we follow the same “path” in the vision, but the vision is “up to date with current events” – so, in theory, when Scarlet witnessed the vision, Mordremoth’s sphere wouldn’t have activated and Zhaitan’s wouldn’t have crashed. But it’s ultimately unclear.
Dev input required, or maybe we’ll get to see The All again thanks to Taimi’s tomfoolery.
Sorry for the late reply, I’ve been very busy with school.
Your interpretation is frustrating. You want to treat only the section with the orbs as part of the All, but it’s clear the entire vision has been updated. For instance there is no vine around the Pale Tree.
I get if you want to say its the same path through the All and not an indication of importance. But don’t arbitrarily decide which parts of the vision are the All when nothing exactly resembles Scarlet’s remarks.
Like Castlemanic said: Who cares if the video was entire or edited snippets? It’s still the past hinting at the future. I’d imagine that if someone wanted to use a video as evidence of imminent unemployment, they’d show the relevant parts rather than an entire meeting if multiple items were discussed.
When it comes to A Light In The Darkness… The evidence points to that not coming from sylvari. It has knowledge that no sylvari knew at the time. You could argue that it could be assembled from the experiences of future sylvari… but then you’re getting into Mists weirdness, and it’s easier to just wave it off as such. Nothing you have put forward provides evidence for your core claim: that the Dream exclusively receives information from sylvari. In fact, we’ve been explicitly told that there are non-sylvari connected to the Dream, which suggests the opposite.
Sorry for the late reply I’ve been very busy with school.
Please don’t strawman. I limited my discussion to areas of the dream the sylvari and pale tree have shown access to. That is why A Light in the Darkness is being discussed.
If the All is already in another area of the Dream, then showing the Pale Tree has broader access calls the OP scenario into question. But if access is limited, then insuring the Sylvari upload is much more important.
No one is discussing where the knowledge in the rest of the Dream comes from. It’s whether we can get to it.
As for the rest of your reply:
The mechanism is important. For simplicity there are three ways to learn about the future.
1. Prescience: information from the future in the present; e.g precognition
2. Insight: non-causal actions or events that reveal information about the future; e.g divination
3. Forecasting: predictions about the future based on causal information; e.g meteorology
Based on discussions with the Pale Tree, A Light in the Darkness is forecasting. A model formed from spliced depictions of the past, present, and hopeful/fearful future.
Our prewaking dream is not edited snippets. It’s insight and prescience. A birthday reveals nothing without a horoscope. Similarly the scenes from the past do not hint at the future, their selective assembly creates the message.
Recognizing the effects of editing allows you to better understand the types of foresight and the proper way to judge symbolism. We never thought a tree was going to grow to cover part of the moon.
As for your other remark, replay A Light in the Darkness. It’s made quite clear that the majority of what you see is the knowledge/beliefs of Caithe and Trahearne. The rest is hopeful/fearful quasi prescience. Trahearne literally narrates most of the vision.
There is no indication the Pale Tree is accessing non-sylvari information.
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….[snip] you can make a prediction based purely on past events.
You can, but they don’t.
They kinda do, everything noted within that video is someone in the past having brought information to the dream, which was then passed on to the PC (in this example specifically). The dream then presents this information in a manner of “this thing is happening according to the info we gathered, you should do something about it” (extremely crude representation please don’t shoot me).
In this way, Drax’s point stands. The future is hinted at through the events experienced by others and handed over to the PC in the form of the Dream.
I think you commented while I was mid edit. Sorry about that.
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We’ve also been given an explanation as to why the Pale Tree appears even to non-sylvari: what we’re seeing has been influenced by Scarlet’s experience.
Scarlet saw the Pale Tree because that was her starting point – in fact, in combination with other information, it seems she had to punch through a barrier made by the Pale Tree to see the rest at all. Passing through the Pale Tree’s vision is essentially the metaphysical representation of going outside of her protection.
We see the Pale Tree because what we see is basically a replay of (part of) what Scarlet saw.
It is possible but it doesn’t explain the reverse imagery in the visions. Scarlet saw the orbs then the Pale Tree, we saw the Pale Tree and then the orbs.
Moreover why would the machine be affected by Scarlet’s experience?
As I have been saying again and again, I believe the entire vision is The All. The part with the orbs is just an outer layer. The Pale Tree stands out during the examination of a deeper layer.
But the Pale Tree is before the outer layer, and we’re heading inward. Which means that the part with the Pale Tree is further out than The All.
It would be another matter if after going through the tunnel the camera turns around to witness the all, but the camera remains the same direction. We approach the Pale Tree, go through a tunnel, and beyond the tunnel lies The All.
The vision isn’t a case of leaving orbit and looking back down, but of heading to orbit from somewhere else (in this case, the Dream is most likely, given the Pale Tree saying what we saw was remnants of Scarlet’s vision and we broke beyond the Pale Tree, caretaker of the Dream, to witness what lied beyond).
I am not going to discuss whether the Pale Tree is prominent in the vision. She clearly stands out from the blue void we float in. You are free to debate whether the whole vision is the All. But don’t add the idea of separate mechanisms affecting the vision without elaborating.
The matter had already been elaborated upon. Not my fault you overlook/ignore such.
Scarlet saw the orbs then the Pale Tree after going deeper. We saw the reverse. Though its possible we are seeing the same information, we did not see Scarlet’s vision as she saw it.
https://youtu.be/OQGGytoNXk8?t=32s It is not impossible to rotate perspective during a transition animation. There is is no frame of reference while the screen is white. If we were heading into orbit we would be zooming in rather than starting at planetary level and zooming out.
….[snip] you can make a prediction based purely on past events.
You can, but they don’t.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7RFX0gB0A0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqmpnHtepiY
Any past that hints at your future is either from events that never happened or those that were witnessed by your own people. Your past and present in the Dream is occupied by dreaming.
Using your video example the past would be someone selectively editing footage of your boss to make it look like he was firing you, and then he fires you. The footage did not hint at your future, the editor did. As we learned in the A Light in the Darkness, the Dream will use composites of the past/present/future to create its prescient visions.
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Except that we can see with our very own eyes that the Pale Tree is not “physically projecting” or “being particularly noticeable” in The All.
Neither definition of the word prominent works. The Pale Tree simply isn’t prominent in The All – she doesn’t stand out within nor is she important to The All.
As I have been saying again and again, I believe the entire vision is The All. The part with the orbs is just an outer layer. The Pale Tree stands out during the examination of a deeper layer.
The Pale Tree is not prominent from the celestial perspective, but she is prominent when we zoom in. The fact we see her out of all the other places on Tyria signifies some prominence to the All or at least the mechanisms of the vision.
I am not going to discuss whether the Pale Tree is prominent in the vision. She clearly stands out from the blue void we float in. You are free to debate whether the whole vision is the All. But don’t add the idea of separate mechanisms affecting the vision without elaborating.
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We already know that the Pale Tree teaches them language and other skills in the Dream. We are discussing what knowledge the Pale Tree has given to the Firstborn and where she got it from. No on is saying the Firstborn were born tabula rasa.
So I’ll admit I got side tracked by that one comment instead of focusing on the issue itself. My bad.
But I think the last point I made is relevant to the discussion. Malyck (according to the wiki) claims he doesn’t know what the Dream is.
I hate to be self referential, but look at all the knowledge that had to be given to Malyck, a sylvari from another Pale Tree that, apparently, isn’t connected to the Dream.
We also know that Mordremoth is connected to the dream, which is how he tried to corrupt the sylvari, which would indicate that this other Pale Tree should have some form of connection to the dream, but doesn’t for some reason.
Malyck (as far as the wiki shows) doesn’t have a profession, though I doubt that he is incapable of defending himself. This leads to a couple of questions:
Is this knowledge somehow embedded in the Pale Trees themselves instead of coming from the Dream? If the trees inherently have the information, what role does the Dream play? If all info comes from the Dream, how can Malyck know how to speak a language and all the nuance that comes with it (and why does Malyck feel no connection to the Dream if even the soundless can’t fully disconnect from the Dream)?
I highly doubt Mordremoth’s mental abilities solely extend to the Dream. Otherwise he would be knows as the Dream Dragon and not the Mind Dragon.
But on the subject of knowledge, the Pale Tree has nothing that resembles sensory organs. Still she is able to acquire information using her Avatar. Perhaps she was taught New Kryta by Ronan/Ventari.
Malyck is an anomaly. He does not behave like Mordrem Guard yet he professes to be unconnected from the Dream. I don’t think we have enough data to explain his existence.
…you first need to demonstrate that your interpretation is the literal one in the first place, and I don’t see how that can be.
Regarding paradoxes: With the way the Mists work, and it seems the Dream is similar, there is no paradox. A potential future was still a potential future regardless of whether it came to pass or not, and in the case of the Mists at least, the reflection of that potential future probably remains in the Mists regardless of whether it came to pass or not.
The past/present can only hint at a future if you have a past/present, the Sylvari have neither in the Dream. The call of my future can reference a calling like a Wyld Hunt or that their future selves are literally connecting to them in some way through the Dream.
Moreover, it could be both. Perhaps Wyld Hunts are merely deterministic impulses to satisfy a possible future.
Your statement on paradoxes is correct. Still we don’t know whether the Pale Tree has seen a future with the all or not.
Perhaps the Pale Tree could work with Dessa to stabilize her visions.
- the knowledge wasn’t learned, we are exaggerating how much the firstborn knew.
Alright, usually I dislike going for scientific theories in fantasy universes, but I feel the point will apply. [snip]
We already know that the Pale Tree teaches them language and other skills in the Dream. We are discussing what knowledge the Pale Tree has given to the Firstborn and where she got it from. No on is saying the Firstborn were born tabula rasa.
The prominence of the Pale Tree in the vision is not in relation to the All, but in relation to our experience.
Which is exactly what I’ve been saying.
What you were saying, however, is that the Pale Tree is prominent to The All as shown in the vision.
You are being confused by the word prominence. It doesn’t only mean importance.
We are talking about a 3d map so “the fact or condition of standing out from something by physically projecting or being particularly noticeable,” is relevant.
The Kremlin is not prominent in relation to the Solar System. However, if two separate people opened Google Earth and it automatically showed us Putin’s garage we may have questions. The Kremlin would be prominent during our viewing experience because it would be sharply in view.
For my part I have only been using one form of the word. But I can use both if you want.
The Pale Tree is not prominent in the All but is prominent in our vision, and therefore might be prominent to the All.
(edited by Daniel Handler.4816)
@Konig & Drax
We don’t know whether or not the vision has a zoom function. But we do know the Antikytheria is 3d.
It doesn’t matter if we are starting at pale tree level and zooming out, or the reverse. If the All was meant to only include the planet and the Dragons it would have had a different name.
The prominence of the Pale Tree in the vision is not in relation to the All, but in relation to our experience. If you randomly glanced at a spot in Google Earth how likely is it that it would be your house?
There is not enough evidence to prove either perspective. I could be wrong. Until more information is given, I feel my viewpoint is simpler. Otherwise why would a separate mechanism attach itself to a person viewing/about to view the All.
Because she has – until the very latest situation been completely unconscious.
My criticism is of her place in the story as a whole. She has not always been unconscious. I worry that because she was involved in cleasning Orr, and HoT was so Sylvari centric, they will keep coming up with convenient ways to keep her out of the story.
Not really. The Pale Tree is not part of The All at all in the vision, but something before The All – closer to us than The All.
Now we are discussing the vision again. Scarlet said depth and further. The part of the vision you call the All is 3d. You need to explain why I shouldn’t take it literally
Prominently in the All just means that our vision focused on that specific aspect. Did we see it just because of Mordremoth or is there something more?
You realize that the asura’s very first reaction to sylvari was “dissect it while it’s still alive, and drill holes into it”. Ask Malomedies about asuran curiosity, his scars that he has in lore (sadly, his model seems to lack) will answer.
And the Priory HAS studied the Dream, they have multiple books on the topic. Including indirect ones.
Its good to see the priory are studying it. But given the recent events in the story I would assume curiosity has heightened.
Just as you praised the writers for the lore notes they left in Caudeucus Manor, I hope they add to this list of priory works.
(edited by Daniel Handler.4816)
If you are deciding to not take a piece of lore literally, you should back up your interpretation.
Except nothing in what you say literally said “I received knowledge from my future”. What is there, though, while open for interpretation, are some fairly standard poetic turns of phrase.
The Dream is similar to the Mists, in that it contains glimpses of possible futures. So one could argue that some of the Pale Tree’s knowledge of the future comes from things seen by sylvari (and, likely, other beings connected to the Dream) in possible futures.
However, if we take this viewpoint, your idea is still a bad one. If the Pale Tree is seeing things from possible futures, than all we’d need it for there to be a possible future where that happened, and she’d have the information. Maybe that’s where the information she has came from in the first place. We don’t need to actually perform the experiment.
Plus, there’s a figure in Canthan lore which pretty much exists as a reminder to not take the Mists for granted.
You are free to say I am taking it too literally. You still need show why. The words are flowery but they aren’t similes or metaphors. There is no winter of discontent.
The view from the future is one of many. But even within that scenario there is no guarantee she sees all possible futures. Or perhaps this is the future she saw. In which case we will be doing it anyway to satisfy the paradox.
Which goes along the lines of “as long as ArenaNet decides she will”.
But she isn’t this end-all-be-all powerful figure. She cannot foretell the exact future, especially not at all times (else she would have foreseen the attack on the World Summit), and she doesn’t show any mental capabilities beyond her ties to the Dream which is literally an insignificant portion of the Dream that expands barely beyond the sylvari’s collective memories (the only cases of her knowing more than sylvari know is with A Light in the Darkness and with her ties to Mordremoth).
You’re talking about the Pale Tree as if she’s some plot device fully capable of solving – or giving the solutions for solving – all of GW2’s plots issues, but she isn’t. It’s kind of like asking why Jennah doesn’t go toe to toe against the Elder Dragons because she’s so powerful – she actually tried and got her kitten mentally handed to her, and besides that she has a nation to run and (until now) had to keep it out of a megalomaniac who would kitten the world for his greed of power’s hands.
I am not saying she is the solution for everything. I am saying no one considers her a solution at all.
Is the term dragon champion that broad in describing power? Did it ever tell us in the story the Glint was on the level of the Great Destroyer and the Pale Tree is no more than an Octovine?
Speaking of plot devices, Aurene has foreshadowed greatness and people are already theorizing about her absorbing/expelling magic.
We see the Pale Tree prominently in the All and we assume we know all that signifies in the story.
And its the little things as well. Wouldn’t the priory study the Dream and/or the Pale Tree? Have race relations destroyed all Asuran curiosity?
There is a giant talking tree, and a bunch of psychically connected smaller trees, and everyone is completely uninterested.
If you are deciding to not take a piece of lore literally, you should back up your interpretation.
From A Light in the Darkness:
Avatar of the Tree: You must soon enter the vision, and gain a glimpse of what may be.
>What do you mean, “vision”
The portal before you is a passage into the Dream. There, you will see glimpses of the past, the present, and the future.
The Dream is made of aether, and it has a non linear expression of time. The firstborn could have learned their professions from themselves. We’ve seen things Sylvari will know. There is more than one possible origin:
We don’t know for certain.
What is implied is that the Dream will store the experience of viewing the All. Maybe it will only record the very beginning, but even that is incomprehensible for mapwork.
If the Pale Tree does know more than she is letting on, great, then we don’t have to do any of this.
But given that she has yet to explain the PC exactly what his vision means, more data is probably necessary.
The story has focused a lot on Glint 2.0 and a quasi Mursaat despite the fact we still have a benevolent dragon champion. The last thing that emphasized the Pale Tree’s potential influence was seeing her in All. There are so many unanswered questions.
Actually, we don’t know that the sylvari don’t receive information from the experiences of non-sylvari. If you take the White Stag starting personal story… where did that Wyld Hunt come from? How do we know that came from a sylvari? Was it actually that the source of the PC’s Dream in that story was coming directly from the White Stag’s experience of being hunted by the Nightmare Court?
For that matter, the explanation for how sylvari are born with a profession is through the Dream… but what about the Firstborn? They’d have to have received their skills from a Dream without sylvari input, or at least without input from the sylvari born from the Pale Tree.
Certainly, the Pale Tree herself seems to know a lot that regular sylvari don’t. Where regular sylvari see only snippets, she does seem to know pretty much everything that’s in the Dream. I’d consider it highly likely that she already knows, and possibly already knew before Scarlet, everything that can be seen through Omadd’s machine, and would be highly adverse to your proposal.
If chosen White Stag:
<Character name>: I dream of voyages. The voices of my people whisper to me of far-off places and mysterious shores.
<Character name>: A white stag races before me, brave and wild, it offers me the gift of freedom.
<Character name>: The Dream hints at my future.
<Character name>: There are distant lands and dangerous challenges—but also, I see my home. A grove with a white tree, and friends who will stand by me when I need them.
<Character name>: My honor dictates that I help those who are lost and alone. I am their protector.
<Character name>: I hear my name in the wind, and I feel the call of my future.
The information came from you in the future.
There is no indication any of the firstborn were born with a profession. And those that were known for one traveled extensively. Moreover level 1 sylvari have barely any knowledge which matches the trend for first experiences being uploaded.
The Pale Tree has the capacity to grasp the All but she does not know everything in the Dream. She knows everything Sylvari have ever uploaded. But she is an underused resource as I said.
The dragons are represented in the cinematic by orbs. There is no literal dragon in the cinematic, and that’s pretty point blank obvious. So ergo, the “dragon” that “came at” the PC would have been an orb, and the one that went to the PC was Zhaitan’s, not Mordremoth’s.
The description of What Scarlet Saw was certainly showing more than what we saw. And that’s ignoring the part where “she went beyond” the vision (not just zoomed in, she “plunged through and went beyond”).
If Zhaitan was coming at them they would have said that. Likewise if spheres were coming at them. Now given that they also don’t mention the growling, the PC did not experience the vision as we did. Their language implies a dragon they haven’t fought yet.
And I am not ignoring anything. The Antikytheria is three-dimensional. Zooming is on one axis, going beyond is on another. It no different than going from planet to city to steet view on Google Earth.
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