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All magic is dragon magic

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Posted by: Daniel Handler.4816

Daniel Handler.4816

@konig

  • “Like I’ve stated, explicitly, the terminology “dragon magic” or “draconic energy” is only ever used in the game in reference to the corrupting magic actively exuded by Elder Dragons and their minions
    The sole exception to this is Taimi and her new “theories.”"

Well that depends on the events of the thaumanova reactor.

Inquest Technician (2): Great. Studying chaos magic wasn’t enough. Oh no. Scarlet has to harness it and amplify it and agitate it.
Inquest Technician (1): Leave it to a sylvari to foul up machinery. She doesn’t even recognize chaos magic. Says it’s something else entirely.
Inquest Technician (2): Come on. Let’s get out of here. Whatever that energy is, I’ve had enough.

Scarlet Briar: I told the Inquest chaos energy was a misnomer. Mind you, dragon energy is tricky, so I can see how they flubbed it.
Scarlet Briar: At least they helped identify the network of magical channels that crisscross the globe. That was a breakthrough.

You wrote;

  • “..their first known experiments with dragon energy was at [[Thaumanova Reactor]], which was originally to research chaos energy. However, according to [[Scarlet Briar]], some of the supposed chaos energy was actually dragon energy; "

Taimi is not the sole exception.

  • How much dragon energy do you think was present in the reactor?
  • Even a little should cause corruption, right?
  • And if there was none then the first known experiments with dragon energy happened with Kudu at CoE, not at the thaumanova reactor.

Regardless after playing the recent story I realize that future data, and most likely more Taimi retcons are coming.

This discussion is not as pressing until after Taimi has entered omadds machine.

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(edited by Daniel Handler.4816)

All magic is dragon magic

in Lore

Posted by: Daniel Handler.4816

Daniel Handler.4816

@ konig
1. Grumby

  • “Did I say “pay”. They haven’t actually done anything for me in a very long time. I’m stuck here like all the other lost souls of the Fire Islands, waiting for the Primordus to consume us."

2. Cataclysm

  • “During Guild Wars Nightfall it is revealed that Abaddon orchestrated the destruction of Arah by empowering the Charr to launch an assault on the human kingdoms by giving them the Titans to worship as gods, and manipulating Khilbron into unleashing the Cataclysm through his demonic servant Razakel. Additionally, many of those slain by the Cataclysm are now trapped in the Realm of Torment indicating they have been touched by his presence.”
  • previously you believed that the cataclysm was Abaddon magic in part because of where the souls ended up.

3. The searing and nomenclature

  • I don’t disagree they actively and passively extrude magic.
  • the problem with the term dragon magic.
  • Kralkatorrik passively exudes ley magic of a particular domain
  • you are saying the cauldrons were powered by a dragon’s magic but not dragon magic.

@ drax
We don’t know a lot about magic, except we know that it is an energy.

Every single term and analogy in this discussion has been in physical terms:

  • magnetism, light, radios
  • concentration, frequency, wavelength
  • etc

No one has conceptualized a change in composition.

Are we saying that corruption is a entirely new particle?

Because if not we have to acknowledge that any physical shift from mist to ley to dragon to whatever is a not a change in form but in structure.

And you cannot gain a property that is not shared in part by the other phases.

All magic is dragon magic, just as all magic is ley magic, just as all magic is mist magic.

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(edited by Daniel Handler.4816)

All magic is dragon magic

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Posted by: Daniel Handler.4816

Daniel Handler.4816

@drax not exactly. Actually I might have had the analogy backwards. Since microwaves are low frequency, equal amounts visible light would have more energy.

Also know one is debating the types of magic. We are debating what type of transformation these are.

I believe it’s structural

  • If all magic is dragon magic then all magical forms must be phases rather than conversions.
  • and all magic would be corruptive
  • my assumption is that like diamagnetic matter most magic would be very weak sources of corruption
  • however some magic would naturally do it better than others

One of the theories is pseudo chemical

  • there are different types of magic and they have distinct compositions

The problem I have with that is that magic is described as an energy

  • how do dragons change the composition of energy?

I may not have gotten all the viewpoints down. I revisit this thread after the living story.

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All magic is dragon magic

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Posted by: Daniel Handler.4816

Daniel Handler.4816

@ konig
1. Grumby

  • “What confusion or purpose would compel them to return to the place of their sacrifice? What binds them here? Bloodstone must be as much a drug for them as it is for the living.”
  • “Their energy adds to the vortex of magic surrounding the bloodstone. Their deaths are a necessary sacrifice for the glory of the Unseen Ones, but a shame nevertheless.”
  • was the ring of fire bloodstone ever unstable to the point of magical vortex?
  • Grumby tells us the souls of the RoF stone are also bound yet as you say he is sane. He doesn’t appear to crave its magic like those of the Fen stone.
  • perhaps we are witnessing two phenomena
  • ghosts are bound to bloodstones they are slain on
  • leaking magic corrupts the mind

2. “Primordus can affect the living.”

  • ArenaNet (Ree Soesbee) : But probably not easily.
  • ArenaNet (Jeff Grubb) : But not with the same animating force you see from Zhaitan, reanimating the dead of Orr.
  • ArenaNet (Ree Soesbee) : I think that it’s, perspective wise, it’s more like the troll or the grawl has a layer of rock over them. They turn a little bit elemental in –
  • ArenaNet (Jeff Grubb and Scott McGough) : Sort of like Jormag and the Sons of Svanir
  • ArenaNet (Scott McGough) : The icier the Sons of Svanir, the more corrupted they are. I would say that Primordus can-
  • ArenaNet (Ree Soesbee) : The rockier they are…
  • ArenaNet (Scott McGough) : Yeah.
  • ArenaNet (Jeff Grubb) : There are rules for the Elder Dragons but they’re not the same rules for every Elder Dragon.
  • ArenaNet (Ree Soesbee) : It’s kind of like he’s converting those living creatures into stone.
  • what I take from this is that physical transformation is variable
  • perhaps ley magic has the easiest time with pure elements
  • either way proximity and exposure is important
  • Primordius and Mordremoth encase things first when corrupting non preferential substances
  • jumping into zommoros house will turn you temporarily into an anomaly
  • perhaps the skin is being covered in ley energy for the same procedure

3. Cataclysm

  • from a wiki page you edited.
  • “During Guild Wars Nightfall it is revealed that Abaddon orchestrated the destruction of Arah by empowering the Charr to launch an assault on the human kingdoms by giving them the Titans to worship as gods, and manipulating Khilbron into unleashing the Cataclysm through his demonic servant Razakel. Additionally, many of those slain by the Cataclysm are now trapped in the Realm of Torment, indicating they have been touched by his presence.”
  • orr was lost beneath the sea when Abbadon was still overseeing water.
  • either way elementals are no less intelligent than destroyers

4. The Searing

  • “It is said the Cauldron’s magic was older than the Charr, older even than recorded history, and forged by ancient entities fallen into sleep and quiescence.”
  • its possible the searring was powered by kralkatorrik.
  • he is believed to be a dragon of crystal and possibly air, and crystals falling from the sky seems like him.
  • you have also implied corruption should affect more than preferences, but the people weren’t changed by the searing.
  • so was dragon magic used in the searing if only specific things were changed?
  • i see this as further proof. Something the devs imply to be dragon magic not corrupting according to our expectations.

5. What do you think Taimi meant?

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(edited by Daniel Handler.4816)

All magic is dragon magic

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Posted by: Daniel Handler.4816

Daniel Handler.4816

@ konig
1. Can Primordius enslave individuals? Can Mordremoth (for non plants)?

  • each dragons has limitations as to what they can corrupt.
  • what if ley and thaumanova corruption is limited to elementals and anomalies?

2. Cosmic power

3. Ghosts and the bloodstone

  • the analogy to a drug is not dissimilar to corruption
  • the Mordrem Vines die when the magic of Mordremoth leaves them
  • the bloodstone crazed will die without consuming magic
  • perhaps this is why the sylvari cannot completely sever their connection to the Dream.
  • more research is required. Especially concerning Stephen point which I will replay to confirm.

Gorr gets readings from the edge of the swamp whilst the PC fights low-level minions and remarks that said levels aren’t strong enough to form a conclusion. This suggests that Gorr can pick up readings anywhere, regardless of the presence of minions, which is why I think that all beings can consume magic – it’s just that the consumption rate of higher-level dragon minions is greater than most other creatures.

4. If magic is like light

  • rather than magnetism let’s use the analogy Taimi herself made.
  • magic is almost like light.
  • a extremely intense beam of light will not melt your flesh like a mild intensity of microwaves.
  • all light is radiation
  • it’s possible for all magic to be corruptive, but dragon energy is so corruptive it’s much more noticeable.
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(edited by Daniel Handler.4816)

All magic is dragon magic

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Posted by: Daniel Handler.4816

Daniel Handler.4816

@konig “Because we’ve seen huge amounts of magic used that doesn’t physically transform or mentally enslave individuals.”

  • You are confusing concentration and size.
  • Not all dragons can even enslave individuals

1. The Searing, The Cataclysm, Jade Wind, the battle of the gods that made the Crystal Desert,

  • all of which are mist energy, Taimi linked Tyrian magic to Dragon magic.
  • let’s go back to the magnetism analogy, concentration is important but so is composition. All matter is diamagnetic, only some is ferromagnetic.
  • it doesn’t matter how concentrated or large mist energy is, it isn’t strongly corruptive, though I assume it can be induced into being so. That doesn’t stop it from being slightly corruption.

2. the ley anomalies, Thaumanova explosion.

  • how do we know that elementals don’t consume magic?
  • do they not require magic to exist? Why else would they stay around sources of power?

3. Captain grumpy

  • he became a ghost though right?
  • aren’t only the living becoming crazed? And permanently. All the crazy ghosts I remember in bloodstone fen did not crave bloodstone and would act sane after being defeated.
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All magic is dragon magic

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Posted by: Daniel Handler.4816

Daniel Handler.4816

@konig

How do you know all magic isn’t corruptive?

I understand the burden of proof with showing the absence of things.

However the reason I brought up magnetism is that for centuries leyman only thought metal and ferromagnets were magnetic.

Then we learned that everything is partially magnetic.

What if all magic is corruptive but in different concentrations?

This may be convergent evolution. But there is a strong tendency for magic to shape the mind, and in greater amounts give sentience. Demons were a stretch, but its the same idea, things coalesce into thinking.

What if Sylvari are not inconsistent lore-wise? What if they are not corrupted?

I think we both know that regardless of what we decide in this thread, Taimi will be right because the writers say so.

It is up to the lore community to find out how.

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All magic is dragon magic

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Posted by: Daniel Handler.4816

Daniel Handler.4816

My thought is that Taimi doesn’t know what she’s talking about. Because not only what you mention, but that it contradicts established lore in the personal story/dungeons.

She isn’t a know it all, despite her attitude (and the Commander’s).

Based on what we’re told in the personal story and dungeons, “dragon magic” or “draconic energy” is literally the corruptive form of magic. What the Inquest, Snaff, Zojja, Gorr, and many others call ‘dragon magic’ solely refers to the magic which corrupts anything it touches. Despite knowing that dragons release magic naturally when sleeping/dead.

You seem to be implying that elementals, sapient plants, and djinn are basically dragon magic. But they do not corrupt nor imbue their magic in others. They seem to be closer related to the ley-line anomalies – which similarly do not corrupt or imbue magic – which form from even higher concentrations of magic.

And there is nothing relating djinn to “the draconic-enchanto consumption theory” of Gorr’s. Djinn do not eat magic. You might be thinking of imps there – or rather, demons in general whom are known to eat magic or souls depending on the type of demon (imps eat elemental magic; torment demons eat souls).

1. What is the contradiction?

  • draconic magic is the corruptive form of magic
  • all magic is dragon magic
  • therefore all magic is corruptive

2. Compare that to our reality

  • all atoms produce magnetic fields
  • everything is made of atoms
  • therefore everything is magnetic

Both of these are technically correct. However commonly “corruptive” and “magnetic” refer to noticeable phenomena.

In testing the DEC theory it was shown that the degrees of power and sentience are related to the amount of energy imbued in a minion.

I consider elementals to be corruptions produced by non-sentient forces. The Djinn, having received much more energy, behave like higher level minions/player races. Neither consumes magic because they aren’t commanded to.

Masterless corruptions by high doses of magic:

  • The bloodstone crazed individuals.
  • The foefire.
  • Demons (in this case high doses of ether)

etc

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All magic is dragon magic

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Posted by: Daniel Handler.4816

Daniel Handler.4816

Taimi: Anyway, I discovered why ley energy is different when run through him, and it’s paradigm-shifting!
Taimi: The chak feed off ley energy, right?
Taimi: And we know that each dragon has a “domain” when it comes to their magic; Zhaitan’s was death, obviously.
Taimi: Well you know what’s guaranteed to give chak a bad stomachache? Death magic!
Taimi: Spencer filters “death” out of ley energy!
<Character name>: So magic is almost like light. Broken up into a spectrum.
Taimi: That’s a perfect way to think about it!
Taimi: Magic as we know it is like white light, composed of all the different types of dragon magic.

However when crafting Astralaria, Cosmic Power is separated into

  • Energy of the Mists
  • Magic of the Elder Dragons
  • Power of the Ley Lines

It seems magic in the ley-lines is different in some way from ED magic.

I believe that dragon magic/energy is a much more concentrated form of ley magic.

  • Elementals are formed in areas of high concentrations of magic
  • Sentient plants were formed in high concentrations of magic
  • Djinn gaining souls/sapience is highly similar to the draconic-enchanto consumption theory

Thoughts?

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Dragons and Terraforming

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Posted by: Daniel Handler.4816

Daniel Handler.4816

When the great storm had finally passed, the kodan saw their gift from Koda. Great sections of the seas had frozen, creating floating islands of ice. And the kodan climbed onto these and so could now live upon the land and the sea. And they watched and they learned and they hunted.

- The Wisdom and Power of the Kodan

  • How much of Tyria was created by the Dragons?
  • What will happen to the map when these dragons die? (i.e will parts of the Shiverpeaks melt?)
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why do mesmers need to be fancy?

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Posted by: Daniel Handler.4816

Daniel Handler.4816

@Vulkorep

1: Lyssa are the goddesses of beauty, illusion.

  • Many believed they taught the first Mesmer. So like other professions they copy some of the imagery of the patron deities.

2: The ability to attack the brain directly without visual cue is a hidden art safeguarded by the Mesmer Collective (of which Jennah, Anise, and Kasmeer are a part).

  • They say it’s to prevent abuse.
  • Most likely it’s to allow false associations between Mesmer magic and fanciness.
  • Either way the delusions are still there, and the victim never realizes because Mesmer magic doesn’t normally look that way.
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Are sylvari bad at necromancy?

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Posted by: Daniel Handler.4816

Daniel Handler.4816

@Konig. I believe you have misunderstood.

“Canceling implies equal and opposite. There is nothing equal between the divisions of dragon magic and regular.”

All magic is dragon magic, but the regular divisions aren’t 1:1 in concentration or composition to their corrupted forms.

We can assume corruption is highly concentrated based on the theory of dragonic-enhanto consumption and its parallels to djinn production/Unnatural Growths.

It’s likely the magic inside dragons, which they exude during sleep, is less concentrated. This is why Primordius, Jormag and Mordremoth can’t make vine/mordem+death-touched minions, but they don’t explode upon receiving large amounts of opposing magic..

Without a thaumanova reactor, mortals won’t experience any surprising explosions. All uninteresting cancellations are seen as the status quo. Noticeable but lackluster interactions like:

  • the absence of undead sylvari when there weren’t any undead plants in gw1
  • heat neutralizing cold when it does that normally

Moreover I don’t think equal low dose cancellations would be common during experimentation. I doubt the domains perfectly align with schools of magic. The bloodstones appear to arbitrarily mimic the aspects of the Gods rather than the dragon domains. And like light, only complementary bands in the spectrum of magic would cancel.

We know for a fact the spellcasters largely stick to the schools because we were told as much by Angel McCoy.

I love that idea, as do many people living in Tyria. The reality, however, is that only the most powerful have the time and energy to do this. It’s like getting two doctorate degrees, one in medicine and one in engineering. Few have the time to do this, and usually, an individual doesn’t want to turn her back on everything she’s already learned to start a new magical discipline. She’d much rather continue advancing her knowledge in the discipline she’s invested decades in. Some, however, may dabble and experiment with specific spells. If a master elementalist can find a mesmer to teach her to produce an illusion, then she may explore ways to combine them. Most professions keep their secrets close to their chests though. And, the danger of a conflict between magical energies and thus, an explosion, is very real.

“Dabbling” with a specific spell is not mastering a highly concentrated interdisciplinary spell to produce magic of the exact band equivalent to a domain.

I think you give the mages too much credit, and you downplay the importance of 200+ years of progress in Tyria.

Your computer is using the RGB model of light. It took 200+ years after Newton’s Opticks for the trichomatic theory of color vision to be developed, and the correct wheel to be establish.

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Are sylvari bad at necromancy?

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Posted by: Daniel Handler.4816

Daniel Handler.4816

The Bloodstones stopped being important. Devs confirmed this. Their separation of magic was thinned even by GW1’s time (explanation for secondary professions) and have only furthered since due to the increase of magic in the world (namely by the Elder Dragons).

And, tbh, you’re the one too focused on names if you feel the necessity to rename them.

And there is a contradiction:

Necromancy doesn’t cancel out ranger magic. Just as it doesn’t cancel out monk magic (“life”). Just as an elementalist’s fire magic (or guardian’s fire, or berserker’s fire) cancel out an elementalist’s ice magic (or a necromancer’s ice).

No magic ever cancels each other out… except when used by the Elder Dragons, and even then, the only case we see is a pair of two very unique, very rare, and very weak creatures that can barely be called dragon minions (for all we know, it isn’t the explosion of plant/death magic, but rather the explosion of magic that damaged the Unstable Icebrood Abomination).

So there is a contradiction. It cannot logically be that both “all magic is dragon magic” and that “dragon magic is divided into a spectrum where different types of magic cancel each other out”. Otherwise we would have seen this canceling out.

Regardless of the labels you want to put on the divisions of magic.

Canceling implies equal and opposite. There is nothing equal between the divisions of dragon magic and regular.

Even if the bloodstone no longer applies, the spellcasters still largely stick to the preexisting divisions..

Perhaps we could accidentally partially cancel something. But would we have the technology to recognize that? Or would heat and cold cancelling just be consider a natural phenomenon.

I don’t understand how it would be obvious.

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Are sylvari bad at necromancy?

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Posted by: Daniel Handler.4816

Daniel Handler.4816

That ‘damaging the self’ is just a case of bloodletting. Literally, shedding your blood to fuel your spells. Hence why it’s called “Blood Magic”.

If Taimi’s right, then it’s definitely not necro ice because there’s no dragon that has that. Zhaitan was death magic and had no relation to ice; Jormag is ice but has no relation to necromancy.

Plus, it’s all ice magic, not “ele ice magic” or “necro ice magic”.

Which is where the whole ‘all magic is dragon magic’ thing Taimi presented messes up because if all magic is the same as dragon magic and certain kinds of magic cancel each other out then it should have been a long known fact that they would. Ergo, by logic, Taimi must be wrong on one side or the other.

As for using plant magic in the past… maybe, maybe not. Rangers have always been a bit questionable about their magic. Plus, with gw2 rangers using all elements (fire, lightning, ice, and earth/plant), seems to me that they’re using the same kinds of magic as elementalists and dervishes but focused more on plants than the raw elements. One could call the entire sphere of all elemental magic as ‘nature magic’ really.

Which, again, makes the Season 3 “revelations” to be weird as hell.

Damaging the self also includes certain curses, not just bloodletting.

Calling it all ice magic is confusing. Ele and necro have magic that make ice. But because of the bloodstones the cannot be the same type of magic. Moreover there is an ice and a water dragon.

You are focusing too much on the names. Death doesn’t line up with what we know too be death magic. It only uses the reanimation/poison part.

  • Treat fire like warmth and destruction.
  • Treat ice like cold and aggression.
  • Treat plants like life and preservation.
  • Treat death like undeath and aggression.

Presumably the water dragon will also cancel with kralkatorrik somehow in this way.

There are no contradictions. Warmth would have canceled cold from the beginning.

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Are sylvari bad at necromancy?

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Posted by: Daniel Handler.4816

Daniel Handler.4816

@konig. I never said it was all of necromancy, there are many branches to each field. Now this was more seen in Gw1, but there was a sizable part of necromancy that involves damaging the self in exchange for power.

As to your other point we don’t know whether dragon fire/ice is ele fire/ice. It could be ele fire/ necro ice. In which case it wouldn’t be well known as it would simply resemble melting/extinguishing, and bad mixtures would be blamed on the bloodstones. Also I think we have been using plant magic (besides the druids) only recently.

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(edited by Daniel Handler.4816)

Are sylvari bad at necromancy?

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Posted by: Daniel Handler.4816

Daniel Handler.4816

Absolutely not, there’s Killeen in the the book Ghosts of Ascalon that was quite a competent Necromancer along with Trahearne.
I think that only Draconic energies can cancel each other out, otherwise it would be known that Necromancer would be at a disadvantage when fighting Rangers, it wouldn’t be a recent discovery. Dragon magic properties can’t be applied to the magic other creatures use
Sylvari have a more objective view of death that makes it more socially acceptable to meddle with death magic. See Undertaker Diarmad in Divinity’s Reach has interesting dialogue concerning this. ( https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Undertaker_Diarmad )

Do we ever see them use spells that self corrupt?

Also plant and death cancel, so neither receives advantages.

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Are sylvari bad at necromancy?

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Posted by: Daniel Handler.4816

Daniel Handler.4816

  • plant and death negate each other
  • there are no undead sylvari, and Caladbolg neutralized Orr
  • sylvari are presumably creatures created through plant magic
  • part of necromancy is corrupting oneself to power the dark arts

Are Sylvari Necromancers incapable of some of the self-sacrificial magic done in necromancy, including becoming a Lich?

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Do Sylavri Sleep?

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Posted by: Daniel Handler.4816

Daniel Handler.4816

There’s quite a few around the grove. One sylvari even mentions having bad dreams ever since she escaped imprisonment from the Nightmare Court. Indicating not only do sylvari sleep and dream, but that they can suffer from PTSD.

Do they have comatose rest?

If so is there connection to the Dream enhanced during that period?

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Do Sylavri Sleep?

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Posted by: Daniel Handler.4816

Daniel Handler.4816

I realise they dream. However is there a post pod state where they are immobilized with eyes closed etc?

Edit: they are constantly connected to the Dream, the question is whether have a set period of rest.

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(edited by Daniel Handler.4816)

What is engie's purpose?

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Posted by: Daniel Handler.4816

Daniel Handler.4816

Ask for a friend who feels like they aren’t needed in any game mode.

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Daniel Handler.4816

Primordus never uses seismic activity though. There was the Great Destroyer causing some earthquakes, but that was all there was. No more earthquake causing than Kralkatorrik’s, Zhaitan’s, Jormag’s, or even Mordremoth’s awakening.

Volcanic activity is seismic by definition. It may be different in Tyria. Also are the other dragons tunneling as well?

Happy holidays everyone.

‘Seismic: of or relating to earthquakes or other vibrations of the earth and its crust.’

Earthquakes can cause volcanoes but not all volcanoes are caused by earth quakes. We’ve no idea if others are tunneling, we haven’t actually SEEN Jormag, just have a vague sense of where he is, but he hasn’t seem to have moved much given the norn’s history with him. Kralk hasn’t been seen since Glint’s death (which is really weird now that I think about it, did he wake up to do that then go back to sleep..?) and no one knows kitten about Bubbles

“Seismic waves are waves of energy that travel through the Earth’s layers, and are a result of earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, magma movement, large landslides and large man-made explosions that give out low-frequency acoustic energy.”

Not all volcanos are made by earthquakes but all volcanic activity is seismic by definition.

Also glass is by definition non-crystalline. The devs might not have cared about the science but fulgurite is ugly enough that the artists wouldn’t use that word.

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Daniel Handler.4816

Primordus never uses seismic activity though. There was the Great Destroyer causing some earthquakes, but that was all there was. No more earthquake causing than Kralkatorrik’s, Zhaitan’s, Jormag’s, or even Mordremoth’s awakening.

Volcanic activity is seismic by definition. It may be different in Tyria. Also are the other dragons tunneling as well?

Happy holidays everyone.

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@drax I can’t argue this because game mechanics is getting in the way.

According to the tempest shouts fire shields and frost aura are made by heat waves and ice particles. So fire is heat. And water is moisture.
But.
Fire overload is described as unleashing accumulated flames.
But
Asura shout “I have ignition” when they enter fire.
But
Fire overload can be done underwater, and ignition shouldn’t.
But
Blocking a profession mechanic in water is unprecedented. And all other ele/engie/ranger/pet/warrior, skills that mention flames don’t work underwater.

To proceed, I need to know exactly why the school is called destruction.

For game purposes nothing is being destroyed, we only seem elements being conjured. You can ride the earth overload regardless of whether you are standing in lava, water, or on metal.

Regardless combustion is heat+ oxygen + fuel. So fire magic should be able to also conjure the things it is going to burn.


On another topic but related to this thread. Primordius and Kralkatorrik still need a second school.

I learned from another thread that Branded and Destroyers are made from Basalt. Given that the latter are lava based, they are probably paramagnetic. But Branded is definitely magnetic.
* crystalline basalt exudes magnetic minerals

  • the brandstorm is purple lightning
  • most natural magnets on our planet were crystallized from basalt and then struck by lightning (lodestone)
  • lightning itself is highly magnetic, and the purple glows on branded resembled the lightning of the storm

I think Primordius became Fire and Rock, Kralkatorrik Crystal and Air.

Rock means Primordius can perform seismic magic. And crystal means Kralkatorrik can perform magnetic magic, and use metal (all metal is crystalline).

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The Branded and Magnetism

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I was looking around on the gw2 wiki, and started to wonder if there is iron sand in the world of Tyria. That lead me to look at the branded areas (since iron sand is nearly black in color, and the branded areas have nearly black stone). I then decided to look up branded earth elementals, and saw that they drop metal. I also saw that the wiki said some branded are made of basalt, and then when I looked up basalt, it said that it can become magnetic when cooled.

So overall… I am wondering just two things: if iron sand exists in GW2, and if many (or some) branded are affected by magnetism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curie_temperature

If their basalt is similar to ours, then

  • they have iron sands
  • destroyers will stick to magnets, but not to your refrigerator, they are paramagnetic
  • some branded will stick to metal (ferromagnetic), some will unless its very cold (ferrimagnetic), and some won’t at all (antiferromagnetic)

But it really depends on what that purple glowy stuff is made of. Lightning is magnetic, and lightning flowing through basalt would produce a very strong field. Some scientist hypothesis that lightning striking ferrimagnetic magnetite is what created ferromagnetic lodestone.

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@ drax
I agree that fire magic is broader than flames, but the word fire has a meaning. I think this has lead to some confusion in the discussion. The word by itself refers to combustion. Fire=flames. Fire magic = domain with the school of destruction. Domains counter domains, because their aspects cancel each other out.

Ex. fire magic vs water magic:

  • heat vs cold, not heat vs water
  • dry vs wet, not dry vs cold
  • might vs damage reduction, not might vs wet

Fire magic can heat water just like death magic can make plant constructs. Domains aren’t canceled by aspects. In gw1 water elementals (including the liquid water ones) were weak to fire damage, but not other fire spells.

Water cannot naturally burn, because its oxidizers/reducers don’t exist in nature, with the exception of radioactive rocks like antozonite. Given that all elementalist magic is natural thermodynamic phenomena, I disregarded the radioactive possibility.

Once again, where is warm water? Steam is water + heat source. All water on earth came from cold and condensation.
—————————————————————————
edit: Destroyers were vulnerable to chill in gw1, then not in gw2 then the infused ones were destabilized by infused magic and became vulnerable again. That makes sense for plant-touched destroyers. But one would think death-touched would be unaffected. To alleviate my confusion I went over Risen skills.

I found that Tequatl and things like the mouth of Zhatain don’t use chill. All of them use poison. It’s highly likely any Zhaitan-produced chill was done by undead elementalists. Meaning Jormag is probably the ice/soul magic found in necromancy but absent in Risen.

Death the domain doesn’t contain chill. Death magic does. And death is process not a type of magic.

The fire domain doesn’t contain meteors. Fire magic does. And fire is a process not a type of magic.

We need to be careful when saying fire that we imply what we mean.

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Lore Discoveries (with Citations)

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@Drax. I agree, we need more information. By the end of the living story we should have more information on the combination of magic. This discussion is also not working because there is two of us. Things you see as clearly spirit are not so clear to me, and vice versa. The subjectivity of two is not very helpful. Until then, I agree the discussion is going nowhere.

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Lore Discoveries (with Citations)

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It ate my response. But essentially you have created a false dilemma.

Not all ritualist magic is healing or lightning. And the stuff that isn’t is outside of your interpretations.For instance manipulating blood. Offering of spirit is closest to offering of blood, and is likely to be aggression/spirit.

The rules of the bloodstone say that two stones cannot be used simultaneously. Spirt is not a stone. And there are no ritualist skills that have unique attributes of two or more schools.

The discussion is cyclical because your concept of merging needs citation.

If I combine spirit with preservation to create a healing skill, that is a separate occurrence to a later combination of spirit and denial. Unless spirit magic is stuck in the preservation stone, I don’t see where this monopoly is coming from.

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@drax
If we are going to nitpick then water can’t burn, hydrogen can. Water can be the product of fire, never the reactant. The thing burning in the halogen water interaction is as much water as water plasma.

The typical definition of fire is rapid combustion in oxygen. If you want to widen the definition to other substances you need to defend the tyrian application of that expansion. Where is the explosive combination? And what makes us sure fire magic contains the ingredients?

Let’s take view what we know.

  • Guardians can produce flames underwater.
  • Foefire creations refuse to touch water.
  • Ele flames cannot be produced underwater.
  • Berserker flames cannot be produced underwater.
  • Engie flames cannot be produced underwater.
  • Ranger nor their pets can produce flames underwater, sun spirit does work though.

Regardless of what qualifies as true fire, orange fire cannot be produced underwater.

If you want to restrict fire magic to heat then we can restrict water magic to cold.

The water on our planet came from cooling the atmosphere.

Ice, liquid water, clouds, etc, all of it came from condensation, and freezing.

Steam has the connotation of heat, but let’s look at the versions of the skill.

  • in water magic: Target foe is struck for 20…52…60 cold damage. If target foe is on fire, Steam Blinds that foe for 5…9…10 seconds.
  • in aquatic fire magic: Blind your foe with superheated water.

Either you make the cold water hit a preexisting heat source, or you make a heat source in preexisting water.

No matter what you want to call it. Heat and cold. Flames and water. They aren’t mixing.

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@Buddha I’m not explaining science to you, you don’t know how rust might affect technology. Google any further questions you have. I am not explaining lore to you, you haven’t realised that Tyria has science fairs, engineers, and mathematicians. Its a game, but even in the game some things are magical, some aren’t. And some magically made things have to work under non magical restrictions.

@Drax It’s just easier to say water plasma, or steam plasma because it’s less words.

The flammability limit refers to combustion in air. Water is inflammable even if it can combust in flourine gas.

Water and fire aren’t inherent opposites. We see, through skills and traits like Burning Precision, Glyph of Immolation, and Elemental Flame that water and fire magic can be combined

Glyphs allow simultaneous use, not combined use. The substances react depending on their own properties. Fire inherently conflicts with water. Water does not inherently conflict with heat. Boiling hot water scalding flesh is not a combination of fire and water.

A combination would be flame merging with water in the same context as water and earth making mud.

What is water/fire?

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@buddha. Telling you to read up on something shortens the length of my posts. It allows you to extrapolate the correct answer and avoid this level of discussion.

Chilling Wind is clearly air magic, but it’s greatest effect is on water magic. Which means there is a connection that goes beyond simple physics.

Chilling wind affects water magic expecially because it is cold air. You assume that elemental magic goes beyond simple physics because it is magic. That is simply not the case. They can’t deny the rules of our physics or Tyria’s. This is because reality manipulations is only by Mesmer/Assassins and they weren’t combining skills in the time of Gw1. The other aberrations are because divine fire is not real fire, etc.

The only magical part is influencing the starting conditions/position, at which point the simple physics of Tyria take over.

If you didn’t play Gw1 you can say so. Otherwise you should know a hex targets a person or object. A spell targets a location. Water hexes are the only type of skill where proximity to skin, and heat transferance, affect the phase of the substance.

You are confusing flame gas with flame plasma. An arrow can move at 150 mph through plasma, and ignite.

Magic affects other magic but given that elementalists cannot simultaneously use two attunements, your explanation is unlikely. If you want to delve into the natural laws of Tyria look into the combo finishers. They may not makes sense to you, and not all fire fields use plasma, but the finishers are non magical. And they are the last simple physics I will ask you to look up.

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25% uptime is the theoretical maximum. The icd of the trait ticks down while the distortion is active, so once the distortion ends there is only 4 seconds remaining on the icd. This allows you a pattern of 4s down and 1s up; 25% uptime. That’s obviously not quite realistic, but it is the theoretical maximum.

This might be a little pedantic, but isn’t that 20% uptime? Every 5 seconds, you have 1 second of invulnerability, so 1/5 = 20% uptime, right?

…yes. yeah, that’s 20%, not 25. My bad entirely.

I accept your apology. See that it doesn’t happen again.

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@buddha I gave the fifth grade explanation. I will now paraphrase it in case I wasn’t being clear.

Water hexes touch you. Skin warms water touching you. Cold skin means water touching you stays liquid/solid/cloud longer. Pure water vapor is invisible. All water hexes use liquid/solid/cloud water.

Read
https://www.ourair.org/wp-content/uploads/facts-smoke.pdf
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_Nolani_Academy_of_the_Arcane_Arts

In combat ash is not airborne without an outside force, however very hot fire can easily ignite an arrow.

Not all magic is explained by physics, but elemental magic is. Your friend Joe doesn’t behave like any water/fire/earth/air skill because sentient animation relies on the concentration of magic. Their water behaves like our water until it is concentrated enough to start thinking for itself.

Lastly you implied that cold air greatly affects water magic because of a magical relationship. That is silly given their real world connection. It’s not that physics is magic. It’s that you repeatedly discount explanations you don’t understand. If you don’t want the fifth grade explanation, then draw inferences from the original.

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@drax the issue is not misicibility, the issue is how they mix.
Unlike air or earth, water cannot burn. Hot water becomes steam, very hot water ionizes into a plasma.
It never combusts. Regardless of whether or not Tyria has atoms, that fact of water still applies. It doesn’t matter whether the contact is aquatic or teresstial, in all versions of the game water never ignites.

Glyphs do not combine magic, they allow simultaneous production of different types. Elementalist/x used this to bypass the bloodstone. Whether or not the products mixed is based on the physics of Tyria.

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@buddha
I asked you to read up so I didn’t have to elaborate on physics. But since you haven’t I will try to be clearer.

Neither do all water hexes freeze nor does this work on all freeze spells. It’s exlusively works with hexes…

Hexes affect the person directly. Ergo the person has solid, liquid, colloidal or gaseous water directly in contact with their body.

If skin temperature is below freezing there is less energy for a phase change. Ice takes longer to melt, and liquids/clouds (fog, mist, etc) take longer to evaporate.

So you are telling me that someone on fire just calmly stands there and waits until the natural updraft…

Stop, drop, and roll does nothing unless you are an elementalist. In which case you use water to melt ice and extinguish flames.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stop,_Drop,_and_Roll

A person taps a cigarette against an ashtray, or a Ritualist drops an urn, because the force to make ash airborne has to come from somewhere. And even then it rarely gets into one’s eyes.

Fire is a natural updraft. That is why smoke rises against the force of gravity. But smoke tends to go straight up.

In both games, and reality, a projectile pushing through a smoky area deliver the force required to get particles into one’s eyes.

Still does not explain the cooldowns.

I can’t give you a physics explanation for cooldowns. The magical explanation is obvious. A mist of spiky crystals will activate fresh air very quickly.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fresh_Air

Chilling Wind is clearly air magic, but it’s greatest effect is on water magic. Which means there is a connection that goes beyond simple physics.

The water cycle is the simplest of physics. Yet somehow you think it’s odd that ten seconds of very cold air affects water more than it affects earth or fire.

Cold air moves across our planet on a daily basis. If phase changes in earth or fire happened in the same range as water then humans would not exist. If you put lava in your freezer does the lava slowly become solid rock or does your freezer melt?

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Primordus energy upstaged by a "Magic Scroll"

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Given the heavy presence on the spirit of fire, I figured that the scroll effectively made the weapon enchanted akin to the braziers – imbued with sacred fire left by the spirit of fire when it left Tyria.

I doubt it has much – if anything – to do with Primordus. After all, what Taimi is theorizing is more that energy from the sphere of fire would be Jormag’s counter.

Of course, the idea that every Elder Dragon can counter another goes against HoT’s statement that “Every Elder Dragon has a specific weakness unique to them” in that its not so unique and Mordremoth’s was “killing the mind” since his power was that killing his physical body was pointless so long as any of his corruption existed due to his sphere of mind. So I’m suspecting (read: hopeful but not expecting) Taimi’s theory will be proven false, and the purpose of trying to prove it is just a plot convenience to get us into the north to meet up with Braham and show off that, yes, Jormag’s consumed some of that magic too but not as much due to proximity.

I also expect that Taimi’s theory will be flawed because otherwise it’d just be Anet catering to popular fan theories and wants (no different than killing Trahearne was).

A counter is not necessarily a weakness. Take fire and ice in the Snowblind Fractal.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Snowblind_Fractal
There appears to be an additive inverse relationship ie:
fire= -ice

We see countless examples of size dependent cancellations.

  • One bonfire can remove hypothermia and apply warmth faster than the cold
  • Six bonfires can melt an ice wall.
  • Five bonfires can only negate the shield on the Elemental Source, not harm it.
  • One Elemental Source can extinguish five bonfire in a blast.

Fire is not Jormag’s weakness. You would need the full cooperation of Primordius or Balthazar to cancel out that much ice.

To kill Mordremoth/Zhaitan we used specific tech/abilities, and some anatomy lessons.

Therefore Jormag has a specific weakness that the pact can exploit without requiring an elder dragon size fireball.

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You can throw physics around all you want, we are still talking magic, hence your “evidence” may not apply. Please explain in physical terms how a cold wind prolongs the effect of water hex spells. Why does blasting ash into someones face only blind him if he is on fire at the same time? Why does having iron dust in the air make your air magic recharge faster? This is not plain physics, that is a combination of magic.

And yes that is technically a game mechanic thing and not strictly lore, however we don’t have any lore that says it ain’t so. Ergo we can assume that lore does follow game mechanics here.

1. Wind chill increases the rate at which the body loses heat. This makes it easier for the skin to freeze and stay frozen.

2. Ash is a earthen byproduct of fire. Traditionally it stays in the firepit or rises up and away with the smoke. But when something hits the firepit the particles go out and possibly into your eye. Look at the art for
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Ash_Blast
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blinding_Ashes

The ash is not being thrown at the persons face. Its being thrown at the ash near their feet. So with earth magic one is making ash, then doubling the effect by striking preexisting ash.

3. All of air magic, from lightning to wind, is heavily influenced by magnetically charged particles in the air. Either due to electrical charges or because of air pressure.

The only thing they break as far as physics goes is conjuring matter. If they wanted to combine stuff then earth could burn like fire, fire could bounce like lightning, lightning could freeze like water, and water could reflect like earth. They don’t. Instead geysers go up and rain comes down.

Boot up Gw1 and make an elementalist/mesmer character, then echo chain Chilling Winds https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Chilling_Winds The game tells us that Chilling Winds is not a water/ air magic hybrid because it doesn’t affect itself. And as you said, mechanics can be lore unless we are told otherwise.

Neither the game designers, nor physics support the idea of combination.

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@Daniel Handler
You just provided yourself with a “humorous” tl;dr to “answer” me without providing any actual argumentation nor an in-depth personal view of the ideas I proposed because you ultimately don’t care. Just send me a private message next time or even ignore me, it’ll definitely be better (for everyone).
Also this is a forum, there’s no pressure in reading and/or discussing, there’s not a time limit… If you (generally speaking) don’t want to read or discuss just don’t.

It totally looks like you followed draxynnic into this thread, transfering an ongoing discussion from another thread into this, while simultaneously not providing anything to this actual thread’s topic in any way – but you don’t care, so why should you…

I responded to drax’s assertion that fire couldn’t oppose ice by explaining that elementalists don’t actually use both at the same time. Ergo Jormag can oppose Primordius.

Here is what has happened.

When you misinterpret Konig, myself, or others, we paraphrase to clarify. However we have our limits. If you don’t get my first point about Jormag vs Primoridus, or my second I am not going to adopt your writing style and write 15,000 words of redundancies.

Within those 15,000 words there is about 1 paragraph of text to respond to. Konig has tackled half of that paragraph. Here is my response to the other.

  • the water dragon may use healing magic, we don’t know. You presume the dragon domains contain all of the spectrum of magic. The amount of things not present in the other 5 dragons would require Bubbles to have way more than 2 domains.
  • yes domains don’t all refer to magic, there is obviously no crystal magic.
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@sock just this once I am going to write the tldr for your three essays.

  • the opposite domains only oppose each other when not in equilibrium. With balance one can use all.
  • Braham used pure fire magic
  • elementalists use arcane magic to manipulate non magical flames.
  • not all domains refer to magics
  • bubbles will probably use healing magic
  • monks combined all God magic to make divine fire
  • do you think bubbles uses healing magic drax?
  • Konig, death magic needs a body, plant makes a body
  • I don’t think sylvari are dragon minions because I don’t understand that champions can make minions with or without an elder dragon. Nor do I understand the transitive property.
  • Konig I think you are taking about Glint when you mention kralkatorrik and sky. I haven’t read about kralkatorrik’s non crystal abilities

The strikethough is on points that can be disproven with the wiki. The others are theories that I don’t care to engage. In the future focus on brevity and clarity to speed the process of discussion.

@ Buddha and dja
Please read the wiki before you assume what is what. Your depictions not only don’t match tyria they don’t match our reality.

Look up

  • wind chill factor
  • the relationship between pressure and temperature
  • how hot air forms
  • ferromagnetism
  • the difference between boiling and evaporation

Heat, moisture, air pressure, and rock structure. No reason to combine those four. And as a result the game tells us lava is only fire magic, moisture is only water magic, lightning is only air magic, silica and magnetism is only earth.

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@drax

It’s not simultaneous. It’s mechanics. Especially because glyphs could affect the magic of other schools in Gw1.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Boil (fire+water)
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Meteor_Shower (earth+fire)
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Soothing_Mist (water+air)
you get the idea

I have no idea what you are trying to say. Boil is done underwater. And the other two fit with the Tyrian concept of fire and water. Fire includes lava and meteors, water includes its vapor, liquid, and solid forms. Earth magic is restricted to magnetism/seismology/geology, and air magic is restricted to electricity/wind

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Posted by: Daniel Handler.4816

Daniel Handler.4816

Sorry, but I don’t see how this build can be effective in a meaningful way.

Well, if your numbers were correct I would agree [snip]

Quite a bit more impressive? [snip]

Neither of you are accurate.

Pyro you can’t give distortion ever 4 seconds the share trait has kitten icd.
At best you have 14%-20% damage reduction over time if combat is steady

And Ansau your method of realistic battle analysis is lacking. They are clearly on ts. The elapsed time between shares is highly variable because it depends on the judgement of the Mesmer and the commander. 8% is a meaningless percentage.

Mathematically one can easily see that every 7 seconds is possible even out of combat

60,
53, 28
44, 21, 24
37, 14, 17, 24
30, 7, 10, 17, 24
23, 28, 3, 10, 17 <- here is where the first skill comes off cooldown.
16, 21, 24, 3, 10
9, 14, 17, 24, 3
2, 7, 10, 17, 24
60, 0, 3, 10, 17 <- here is where the chain repeats

x,x,x,x,x = distortion, signet of ether, signet of inspiration, signet of midnight, illusionary inspiration

Yes some signets have a cast time that wasn’t figured into the above numbers because 1s< of cast time is meaningless when someone has even pitiful uptimes on alacrity and quickness.

Based on his build that only way for Pyro to be unable to share exactly every 7 seconds is to not shatter at all.

“Kentigem”-chief. Born cycle of Dusk. Wyld Hunt:
Learn as much mending and medical info as possible so that it can be added to the Dream.
Become the first Chief of Mending and guide the newly awaken as well as those who want to learn.

Balance of the Dragons – Kralky and Steve

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Posted by: Daniel Handler.4816

Daniel Handler.4816

@drax

Schools don’t regress, ele didn’t lose all its recharge/cast modification abilities, they just don’t use the glyphs.

Burning precision is a variance of the glyph of immolation. And cantrips are the glyph of essence etc.

It’s not simultaneous. It’s mechanics. Especially because glyphs could affect the magic of other schools in Gw1.

“Kentigem”-chief. Born cycle of Dusk. Wyld Hunt:
Learn as much mending and medical info as possible so that it can be added to the Dream.
Become the first Chief of Mending and guide the newly awaken as well as those who want to learn.

Lore Discoveries (with Citations)

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Posted by: Daniel Handler.4816

Daniel Handler.4816

@drax
Why would they have to draw from all of them at once?
You expect a complete mixture of spirit and the other schools without precedent.

In terms of servitor magic:

  • Primordius can make fire/death and fire/plant. Making fire/death/plant is irrelevant.
  • in Gw1 all types of spellcaster could be undead and under the control of a single entity.

Simultaneously using servitors of all schools breaks no rules.

In terms of channeling/spells sometimes the combinations are obvious:

Sometimes not:

But none are spirit + two other schools. So no rules are broken.

In terms of urn spells, what do you think they are doing? It could be servitor work, it could be channeling. All I know is that the drop effect differs greatly from on death procs in minion magic . And whatever they are doing it is much more invested into all schools than a necromancer is.

When you merge with true magic some skills use one school some skills use another. What doesn’t happen is all skills have to be of all schools, otherwise Guardian wouldn’t have so many unchanged skills from monk.

Interdisciplinary fields not homogenous in our world, and they aren’t homogenous in tyria either. That’s not how knowledge works.

How difficult would bio-engineering be if everything had to be physics/math/chem/biology/computer science at once.

“Kentigem”-chief. Born cycle of Dusk. Wyld Hunt:
Learn as much mending and medical info as possible so that it can be added to the Dream.
Become the first Chief of Mending and guide the newly awaken as well as those who want to learn.

(edited by Daniel Handler.4816)

(Spoiler) Living Story S3E3 Discussion

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Posted by: Daniel Handler.4816

Daniel Handler.4816

I take canceling to mean purifying rather than annihilation.

Like Caladbolg? Which was a subverted version of Mordremoth’s magic, used to attack Zhaitan’s energy. There is precedent.

Yeah exactly like Caladbolg.

We discussed earlier that Zhaitan’s death made Mordremoth stronger, but everyone could not agree how it made him stronger.

The Plant/Death/Destroyer hybrids are much easier to categorize. Its difficult to determine what of the Mordrem comes from Death Magic.

My guess is the patchy texture to the hybrids is because the death and plant magic on them are behaving like oil and water.

“Kentigem”-chief. Born cycle of Dusk. Wyld Hunt:
Learn as much mending and medical info as possible so that it can be added to the Dream.
Become the first Chief of Mending and guide the newly awaken as well as those who want to learn.

(Spoiler) Living Story S3E3 Discussion

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Posted by: Daniel Handler.4816

Daniel Handler.4816

I take canceling to mean purifying rather than annihilation.

Mordremoth vs Zhaitan (life vs undeath)

  • Plant = tissue + life
  • Death = tissue + undeath
  • Life = ~undeath
  • Plant + death = unexploitable tissue
  • like holy damage vs undead, or cleaning orr.

Jormag vs Primordius (heat vs cold)

  • Fire = hot gaseous water (pyrolysis)
  • Ice = cold solid water
  • Fire + ice = liquid water
  • in the ice fractal we see how fire can block cold but cold can also extinguish fire. We can step into the flames to warm us up to normal, but excess is also harmful.

Bubbles vs Kralkatorrik (the water cycle)

  • water + crystallization = ice
  • water + air + ice crystals = cloud
  • clouds = rainwater + lightning
  • rainwater and lightning are purer than the water and air they come from.

Edit: gw1 had no elementals with a weakness to lightning damage. And there is only one elemental that even uses air magic, and it also uses earth magic. Some creatures of stone were resistant, but stone is of Primordius so that can’t be the pairing.

“Kentigem”-chief. Born cycle of Dusk. Wyld Hunt:
Learn as much mending and medical info as possible so that it can be added to the Dream.
Become the first Chief of Mending and guide the newly awaken as well as those who want to learn.

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Lore Discoveries (with Citations)

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Posted by: Daniel Handler.4816

Daniel Handler.4816

@Drax please define what you think merging meant.

I read the angel quote. She explicitly refers to the danger of merging. This risk had to do with the mixing of energies not the difficulty of a master elementalist learning how to make illusions. She does not refer to the abilities as separately dangerous.

You claim they adapted one because of a loophole but four is impossible. Why?

They said spirit + true magic not spirit + preservation. Interdisciplinary fields are not homogeneous, even in our reality. Parts can relate to one field but not to others.

For instance
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biochemistry#/media/File%3ASchematic_relationship_between_biochemistry%2C_genetics_and_molecular_biology.svg

If you think the turquoise is close enough to be a mix then you need to address why a pure usage is done through a mix. There is no turquoise in monk/paragon skills but those professions both have orange/yellow bursts. Both pink and indigo are within the palette of mesmers and ether. Moreover thieves came from assassins so the focus on dark/smoke/shadow may have changed their colors. Ritualists use the underworld, whether revenants draw from the same location is unknown. Crude should still be the right color.

Now I keep getting ahead of myself so let me clarify rather than theorize.

Form determines function.
Consider Razah vs Sylvari.

  • they are direct adaptations
  • both use the wrong material to mimic flesh
  • both have most of the functions of humans (like choosing professions).
  • ether, plants, and flesh are close enough to shape to the same function.

Now consider guardian vs ritualist

  • they are direct adaptations
  • both use the wrong material to mimic each other.
  • both have most of the functions of each other.
  • spirit and light are close enough to shape to the same function.

Someone without the ability to use one can substitute to access its associated techniques.

I know what Macha said. And I agree. But I think they adapted techniques/hoo-ha, not literally combined magical energies.

Abilties refers to output, technique is the methods. Ability requires practice or flair, technique requires memorization. Know how something is done is different from doing it.

A volleyball player could easily apply the techniques of football to their sport. Although footballers don’t use their hands, both sports use the rest of body to knock the ball into the air. But given the chance to learn how a footballer juggles, I think an expert volleyball player would find it easier to do it with volleyball. They understand its weight and how to manipulate it.

Similarly, the amount of experience using light or spirit or any element is a factor in how one learns to use energies.

The dragons have merged with other magics, do you see any skills that are purely from a new domain? Even creatures of extreme power and intelligence require training. They, like ritualists and guardians, will replicate the way they are comfortable.

Moreover any of the abilities they have mixed are super obvious. There aren’t any plant/death/lava hybrids that can be confused for original destroyers. Yet all restoration skills only resemble ritualist animations.

Now I believe ranger is either mixing techniques or using normal plant abilities, but if you think they are mixing plant/school magics remember the plant/x skills are clearly different from pure plant. And ranger uses pure water and pure light. Were ritualist a mix we should see pure spirit, an obvious mix, and pure other.

Rather than saying abilities and techniques I could say skills and principles. But yeah. I agree that ritualist has merged. Just not the way you define merging.

“Kentigem”-chief. Born cycle of Dusk. Wyld Hunt:
Learn as much mending and medical info as possible so that it can be added to the Dream.
Become the first Chief of Mending and guide the newly awaken as well as those who want to learn.

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Lore Discoveries (with Citations)

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Posted by: Daniel Handler.4816

Daniel Handler.4816

Go back to the interview with Angel.

only the most powerful have the time and energy to do this. It’s like getting two doctorate degrees, one in medicine and one in engineering.

You assume that it was easier for guardians to use ritualist abilities because restoration magic is already an interdisciplinary fusion of preservation magic and spirit. That makes no sense. They are doctoral disciplines. Find me a smart guardian in the game. Biologists can use biochemistry easily because chemistry has been applied to biology. Complex+complex does not easily reduce to simple and portable for the casual soldier. People don’t learn biochemistry before learning biology and chemistry.

This is why I brought up biomemetics and why I keep mentioning light-effects. Structural techniques are much simpler to mimic. Air planes and velcro were based on birds and burrs before DNA was discovered.

That is what the guardian does. They shape light like ritualists shaped spirit. Like artists sculp clay flowers.

But spirit is even more versatile than light or plastic or clay.

Spirit is not a basic element like water etc. Though elements can coalesce into spirit like Djinn, mortals are compounds, mixtures of the known elements and perhaps more.

Therefore a mortal soul is likely several elements, perhaps:

  • healing: light or water
  • stealing health: dark
  • cleansing conditions: light or fire
  • burning: fire
  • redirecting damage: light
  • reducing damage: ice
  • lightning: air or ice (most of the lightning on our planet is produced from friction between ice crystals in clouds).

Tldr; Ritualists are half-hearted revenants that can take on the knowledge but not the power of their spirits.

  • Their spells are limited to what spirit can do as a substance.
  • Adaptation and merging was finding ways to replicate true magic (light effects etc) with spirit.
“Kentigem”-chief. Born cycle of Dusk. Wyld Hunt:
Learn as much mending and medical info as possible so that it can be added to the Dream.
Become the first Chief of Mending and guide the newly awaken as well as those who want to learn.

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Lore Discoveries (with Citations)

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Posted by: Daniel Handler.4816

Daniel Handler.4816

I don’t think I was being cyclical. I think we disagree on what merging entails.

In short, ritualist:monk as biomemetics:biology. The techniques are there, the composition is not.

In long, neither of us know the exact process by which magic merges, but here is my theory.

I believe they adapted all schools into their original tradition, not just preservation. Remember, the author never mentions a single discipline. Instead, he uses the collective term “true magic.” This was a scholarly source. The name “preservation” would not be omitted if ritualists had merged with it more than others. My opinion is that channeling from an influx of dead spellcasters would required adaptation. And learning preservation alone would not cut it.

Ritualists are the only servitor users in the game that suppress will and intelligence while still accessing ability.

  • Type1 servitors have consent to channel/become avatars. They include Rangers/Dervish/Havroun.
  • Type 2 servitors do not have consent. They are unable to use advanced abilities without freeing the intelligence of the entity they control. They include Revenants and Necromancers.
  • Ritualists are Type 3. They use advanced powers without intelligent undead/souls/spirits/echos.

And ritualists are the only servitor users with inaccurate colors. Color picker software easily establishes what our eyes may have difficulty seeing. All ritualist abilities, and the spirits they produce, are turquoise. They are not the blue-white of divine forces/monks. In fact they are not the color of any school. Instead they are all the color of ghostly flesh.

One could say thats just for
pvp reasons. But I disagree. Mesmers in Gw1 and engineers in gw2 use the exact same color/texture when they copy monk/guardian skills. And even the crudest preservation magic is the right color scheme, including that done by paragons.

For example compare Reversal of Fortunate-https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Reversal_of_Fortune
https://youtu.be/2I2npnDOcCA?t=1m21s
and
“Incoming”-https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/%22Incoming!%22
https://youtu.be/OoiYmoT5ui0?t=17s
to
Mend Body and Soul-https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Mend_Body_and_Soul
https://youtu.be/5ZB6KSJBDfk?t=2m43s

Not only could they have made ritualist skills blue-white, they could also have made them yellow/orange. But they didn’t. Why? Because nothing by ritualist is pure usage of a school or even complete access through a servitor. That would have the correct colors. Revenant shows us that.

“Kentigem”-chief. Born cycle of Dusk. Wyld Hunt:
Learn as much mending and medical info as possible so that it can be added to the Dream.
Become the first Chief of Mending and guide the newly awaken as well as those who want to learn.

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Lore Discoveries (with Citations)

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Posted by: Daniel Handler.4816

Daniel Handler.4816

[snip]…
Second, other casters use different methods. Elementalists do so by washing the target with healing water… and I’ll also note that the healing in Ward against Harm and Swirling Aura didn’t get buffed in until 2012, when they were probably explicitly looking to put in some foreshadowing towards water having more of a healing role in GW2. Necromancers, as previously discussed, typically heal allies by stealing life energy from somewhere else. Monks, guardians and ritualists do so through light effects.

(In interests of disclosure, I’m not sure how precisely some of the mesmer healing of allies in GW2 works, but that’s in GW2.)

Light effects is a non sequitur.

  1. The Deep Freeze from frost bow is visually identical to “chilled the bone.” Same animation does not mean same school.
  2. Spectral Wall and Null Field are both ethereal fields. Same composition does not mean same school.

Just as you can imagine a way for Necromancers to suck warmth rather than imbue cold, I can imagine a Ritualist that manipulates spirit/mist energy. Not only do the ghostly weapons in game produce blue light, but the Ritualist is known for using lightning.

Light-ning

Otherwise we have to treat the foefire as preservation magic because of the blue fire similarities. We have to consider all combo field usage as magical.

“Kentigem”-chief. Born cycle of Dusk. Wyld Hunt:
Learn as much mending and medical info as possible so that it can be added to the Dream.
Become the first Chief of Mending and guide the newly awaken as well as those who want to learn.

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Lore Discoveries (with Citations)

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Posted by: Daniel Handler.4816

Daniel Handler.4816

@drax
Sorry for the late reply.

This discussion can’t truly progress until we have more info.

  1. the amount of ambient magic available between the exodus and gw2
  2. whether spirits that manifest from the mist still use it as a power source

But I will say there is no evidence that any of the ritualist’s spells without or without spirits are cruder than preservation. In fact for their energy cost they frequently heal more and have stronger effects.

I see healing as an effect that can be replicated by several schools. It just so happened faith magic was bound into the preservation bloodstone, and developing healing techniques with faith magic was considerably easier. Even back in gw1 elementalists and necromancers could heal others, they just weren’t considerably talented at it.

“Kentigem”-chief. Born cycle of Dusk. Wyld Hunt:
Learn as much mending and medical info as possible so that it can be added to the Dream.
Become the first Chief of Mending and guide the newly awaken as well as those who want to learn.

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Melee mesmer needs more ways to Cripple

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Posted by: Daniel Handler.4816

Daniel Handler.4816

I have now twice confirm that your preexisting sword clones will temporarily switch target to your IL target, perform the leap, then return to their original targets.

Which means if you 3 sword clones out, every time you use IL that person will get 3 stacks of cripple. Up to 6 seconds.

The bug that we don’t want may solve your problem.

“Kentigem”-chief. Born cycle of Dusk. Wyld Hunt:
Learn as much mending and medical info as possible so that it can be added to the Dream.
Become the first Chief of Mending and guide the newly awaken as well as those who want to learn.