They should just open up the new BL’s on top of the old alpine ones, up the player count, then put all the servers in one fight.
Metrics like population density, measure of prime time coverage, and the total score at the end of the week/placement can be sampled and determine which servers get paired with others for consistent and fair fights. Toss away the glicko system and just take new measurements each week to re-balance the matchups.
This still puts extra emphasis on server loyalty, as guilds are unlikely to disperse into other servers (as then guild allies would be fighting each other if they got matched up), and gives a reason to transfer, still, but doesn’t create an un-fun atmosphere and cause mass groups of players to lose interest in the format/GW2 as a whole if their server faces an exodus as many do.
I probably should have written out Applied Fortitude instead of just typing AF.
Better?
Yep, sorry. It totally went over my head that you were including that when not seeing the name. I play sPvP and PvE a lot more than WvW now so stacks usually don’t get counted into builds for me.
Again, apologies.
All cool. I should have been more explicit. I think I wrote it out while making the post, but made a grammar mistake in the sentence, deleted it, and then just wrote the acronym neglecting to consider I hadn’t referenced the importance of guard stacks earlier in my post to make it clear.
It’s a huge cut, though. These put the thief to mid-tier HP on berserker crit builds, meaning the % gains relative to baseline HP were much larger and thus more important with our terrible cleansing than most other classes. While warriors could benefit like 12% of their base hp as additions without changing gear to better combat conditions, these bonuses would provide over a 40% gain – and yet the class is still weak against conditions.
What’s funny is that come the changes, I think a berserker warrior with a hammer will be able to one-hit-kill a thief in WvW that doesn’t build vitality, and if PT is removed, we’re looking at no way to deal with any real burst aside from building soldier’s, as even Valkyrie’s bonuses are not enough to combat what should be just a single mesmer shatter as well.
I can understand the reasoning behind the CD on poison, though, as then there would be no reason not to only spam 3 since it’s a multi-hit that has the highest chance of appyling it in a short period, applies very strong bleeding, and acts as an evade.
I just don’t think baseline weapon skills can be altered much without specializations changing them. The hybrid weapon concept just doesn’t really work for the thief because the initiative mechanic just allows for the spamming of one ability without using the rest (which is boring), since odds are some of the other skills will be for the other build portion of the hybrid – A condi D/D thief will rarely ever prioritize HS for damage over DB, and a power D/D build will really never find use for DB except maybe as a desperate evade.
Karl, can we get confirmation on Practiced Tolerance, too? The streams/updated notes say Ferocity, but you said on the stream that it’s been unchanged except bumped up to 10% (as it’s currently 7% Vitality).
I feel like giving crit strikes more damage and not giving it any durability bonuses, while in-line with the design of the trait line, puts thieves in a bad place against conditions and ultimately hurts build diversity and the class as a whole by forcing more players into defensive trait lines due to the crazy low health pool and terrible condition cleansing we have. This trait helps immensely, especially while offsetting the losses to Applied Fortitude in WvW while people run +40% condi food and have inherently higher damage outputs.
Thanks!
Uhh please don’t listen to this guy.
We want ferocity based off precision.
Maybe if you just PvE. I’m one for going full-on damage, but PT’s vitality bonus is a pretty big loss, especially with condi damage buffs incoming and the removal of (EDIT: Applied Fortitude) cutting our hp down by like 4k from what it is now.
Again you are thinking in just terms of WvW.
Even in just those terms you can mix/match your gear to make up for the loss in Vit. In PvP the ferocity will be a nice bonus to spike damage and will help thieves in general perform their role much easier. Especially due to losing all our damage modifier traits ^^
Loss of damage modifier traits? We have better modifiers coming than we have now.
S/D acro/trickery gets 20% more damage from DA and utility from Panic Strike, and PS D/P gets executioner for 20% more damage as a finisher. The traits mentioned here are more important for the benefit of making the thief good at its role in sPvP more than anything in CS, which is +1’ing fights (the enemy is probably already low, and DA is designed as a finishing-blow trait setup) and mobility to cap uncontested points. which no trait line resolves. If the extra burst is really so necessary, then builds can adapt into not using PS and instead using RT since it’s being moved down to the master line, too. +200 power is better than the ferocity benefits in terms of maximum damage on a crit and DPS when accounting for non-crits.
The new DA line gives competitive builds way more benefit than CS, and CS is only really useful on D/D, which is only half decent in WvW and PvE.
All I see this positively changing is S/D’s damage if they decide to instead do CS over DA (silly move) and D/P’s damage for spamming 1, HS and SS. The first I don’t think will happen much since there is no advantage to using CS over DA in this scenario, and no S/D will sacrifice acro since Vigor is being nerfed by half, and D/P honestly doesn’t need more of a reward for spamming/facerolling the keyboard yet still is getting damage benefits baseline.
So yea, I have WvW goggles on because PT is pretty much an absolute essential for WvW due to the potency of conditions there, and that this trait as a vit bonus creates more build options and creates more viable play for crit/stab builds seeing as we’re going to already be pushed into struggling to survive since such a massive chunk of our health will be removed from the removal of guard stacks.
(edited by DeceiverX.8361)
I probably should have written out Applied Fortitude instead of just typing AF.
Better?
Stack-based removal of both conditions and boons was always something I never understood as to why it wasn’t implemented in the game. I really hate cleansing cripple over 19 stacks of bleeding, and so on.
Karl, can we get confirmation on Practiced Tolerance, too? The streams/updated notes say Ferocity, but you said on the stream that it’s been unchanged except bumped up to 10% (as it’s currently 7% Vitality).
I feel like giving crit strikes more damage and not giving it any durability bonuses, while in-line with the design of the trait line, puts thieves in a bad place against conditions and ultimately hurts build diversity and the class as a whole by forcing more players into defensive trait lines due to the crazy low health pool and terrible condition cleansing we have. This trait helps immensely, especially while offsetting the losses to Applied Fortitude in WvW while people run +40% condi food and have inherently higher damage outputs.
Thanks!
Uhh please don’t listen to this guy.
We want ferocity based off precision.
Maybe if you just PvE. I’m one for going full-on damage, but PT’s vitality bonus is a pretty big loss, especially with condi damage buffs incoming and the removal of (EDIT: Applied Fortitude) cutting our hp down by like 4k from what it is now.
(edited by DeceiverX.8361)
Karl, can we get confirmation on Practiced Tolerance, too? The streams/updated notes say Ferocity, but you said on the stream that it’s been unchanged except bumped up to 10% (as it’s currently 7% Vitality).
I feel like giving crit strikes more damage and not giving it any durability bonuses, while in-line with the design of the trait line, puts thieves in a bad place against conditions and ultimately hurts build diversity and the class as a whole by forcing more players into defensive trait lines due to the crazy low health pool and terrible condition cleansing we have. This trait helps immensely, especially while offsetting the losses to Applied Fortitude in WvW while people run +40% condi food and have inherently higher damage outputs.
Thanks!
Well the ascended stat increase has been debunked and removed. The stats are going to remain as they are per CJ’s response in a new thread.
I think it’s gonna come down to the number of pact airstrikes, though. I was hoping EBG would remain untouched as the HoT borderlands changes look rather bad :\
neither the price, nor the slot is an issue here
Perhaps for you. The price is the only issue for me. It doesn’t seem to match the value of what I’ve seen so far of HoT. Then again, it’s possible the extent of new content has yet to be revealed.
Others are mostly concerned about the lack of a new slot to make a Revenant, which means they’ll actually pay $10 more than everyone else.
I know I’m in the minority, but I’ve seen at least as many people primarily concerned with the character slot as there are who are concerned newbies are getting the base game while veterans don’t.
You’re maybe in the minority of people reacting negatively, but you’re on-board with a very large number of people complaining about the price.
If HoT was the size of the original game. or maybe 3/4 the size, nobody would be complaining. People upset that they’re trying to make release for new players easier/cheaper than what veterans originally paid are just being dumb. That logic implies nothing should ever deprecate in value.
So I guess following that logic we should all spend millions on new phones each upgrade since the technology in them is in all ways superior to what NASA collectively had in the 1960’s.
That’s pretty upsetting. Of course you’re gonna have cat-holes out there, and this is an MMO after all, but that’s pretty low even for a mad GW2 community.
People are pretty ticked right now (myself included), because the amount of content we’re getting, and what’s in it within HoT seems like a few necessary updates better-fit to feature patches and general updates than an expansion. Spending that much money for what is so little content (that we know of so far) that feels like necessary implementations that should have been here from the beginning is pretty insulting to the players who’ve been here for a little while or may not qualify for any kind of refunds.
Have we seen all the content? It sure seems that way by you all who complain about it. Myself, I think and am pretty sure we have not.
Actually, you just answered your own question.
We have no idea how much content we’re looking at. We know specializations, traits, masteries, and the WvW map are all not part of HoT but a general content update, though. Only some specifics are unique to HoT.
And that’s it; so what exactly does HoT bring beside from some new sPvP, a new class, and a couple new maps?
We don’t know.
So why are people willing to pay $50-$100 on something they’re next to clueless about that has little substance known about it? That’s just stupid money management and an insult to the consumer expected to buy it.
cause the majority of us dont require a game to physically lock the entire access to anything new down to mark it down as Something the Expansions providing.
When u pay Into a game u arnt just throwing money at something for fun… or for a limited time, ur valuing the Work of a Individual or a Companys quality, you as a Customer are investing in Arena.nets Game, this is what makes the difference between a Successful and a Failing game.
Arena.net Need our Money to produce what they do, they need our money to hire people and keep people employed to bring the game together every day to work on the servers bugs pvp pve and game content as a whole each day looking for new things or things they could improve, it costs the company money to have this.
As its stated Expansions are released Equal price to the actual game and often do not offer as much length wise as the base game, U pay into something to support it and keep it doing what its doing, if nobody buys the expansion then they stop GW2 thats how the world works.. 0 Money = 0 profit = Failing Game.
Is the Expansion more expensive then alot of f2ps these days? Yes.
but Look at how much additional Things u pay for in those games in comparison to this one..
Over 3 years in any other game u’ll of spent atleast £400 in Subs + Micro Transcations.
this game u’ve been forced into nothing but the inital games price.
People Segment their profits differently… it all adds up to be the EXACT same thing there is no Scam.. No Rip off… its not overpriced in the long term of things, people just ignore the actual process behind this and QQ on it.
if they’re sacrificng their profits in the game to deliever u the full game free of charge with 0 p2w options 0 Subscription and 0 Forced payments into the cash shop, they need ur investments else where, Expansions is Another placew they can put it without drowning u in long term constant payments.
The amount of money generated from HoT will be absolutely miniscule. Have you taken a look at ANet’s incomes from the gem store? They made more money from gem store sales than they have from game sales over the years by a very large margin, last I looked. Stating that they need this money to fund the game is simply a lie when the gem store is so successful. Any claims that this isn’t the truth are uninformed and complete nonsense.
Having no P2W is a choice they made to generate interest and retain players. People quit because of P2W, but are fine with other people spending hundreds on cosmetics, and the people who spend hundreds on cosmetics are totally fine with doing so. I know people who have every skin in League of Legends – that’s a hefty chunk of change – and they have no regrets buying them all.
In earlier years, ANet came out and said they didn’t have intention on releasing expansions for GW2. That’s because they were making fine money from the gem store, and they already made hundreds of millions from their initial buy-ins as well. They wouldn’t have no intention of releasing expansion packs if they needed the money from them to support the game. They’re just doing it because the community cried enough about wanting to go to the store to by a box with tons of content. Seems as though we’re not getting that tons of content, though.
You’re the one who doesn’t understand said “process” if anything.
(edited by DeceiverX.8361)
I think they removed the vitality from PT cos with the removal of stats from trait lines, this trait alone would give us a nice chunk of HP without investing into vitality gear.
PT + guard stacks that’s like 16k HP in wvw for a zerker thief, I can see why these things will be removed.
CS is a dps trait line, with the changes it will do just that, dps. The question is whether our other trait lines will be enough for a zerker thief to survive.
Guard stacks are being removed. That’s why this is actually so concerning; you’re stuck with no way into even remotely similar health in WvW now. Full Valkyrie gear still only puts you to like 14-15k, so PT would be a happy medium.
Have we seen all the content? It sure seems that way by you all who complain about it. Myself, I think and am pretty sure we have not.
Actually, you just answered your own question.
We have no idea how much content we’re looking at. We know specializations, traits, masteries, and the WvW map are all not part of HoT but a general content update, though. Only some specifics are unique to HoT.
And that’s it; so what exactly does HoT bring beside from some new sPvP, a new class, and a couple new maps?
We don’t know.
So why are people willing to pay $50-$100 on something they’re next to clueless about that has little substance known about it? That’s just stupid money management and an insult to the consumer expected to buy it.
in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns
Posted by: DeceiverX.8361
I think the big issue at hand is that simply put, the content in HoT to our knowledge thus far isn’t worth the $50.00.
We barely know anything about it, the content volume is substantially smaller than the base game as a fact, and a lot of the features coming near/with HoT that people really wanted are coming to the base game, anyways.
I think people are starting to realize HoT was way over-hyped, and because of that hype, has become overpriced.
Why not just sell the complete game for $60.00 like at launch, since after all the content is new, but offer an upgrade for say, $30.00, since the base game as of yesterday according to ANet was worth $40.00 (and can depricate again), and we know the content in HoT is just an “expansion” of much smaller scale than the base game with some QoL improvements?
Look at those expansions – the details – and compare those to what’s being released in HoT (fun fact, specializations, WvW maps, etc. – that’s all in the base game – not in HoT). See something different? The other game is getting more; or at least as of the ability to pre-purchase knows that they’ll be getting more and knows specifically what they’re getting.
We’re still largely in the dark, here, yet are being told to shell out nearly the same amount as the base game at launch – an industry standard price point for new, top-quality, full-on AAA games – if not more money for an extra character slot to enjoy some of the featured new content without deleting our old progress.
It’s simply a bad gesture from ANet and only indicates more bad things to come. People are up in arms because they’re passionate about the game and its success, not watching a foundation of good memories (and their wallets) get used and abused.
So you prefer to see your favourite game failing with 100,000$ loss [that means, less contents, slower support, everything going worse] than to say “ok I will give a try and see if I might like HoT”?
That’s so intelligent. So so intelligent.
Yes, actually.
Because massive monetary losses force either total failure or big changes for the better.
Seeing as the game is already headed in the direction of the former based on the past few announcement cycles we’ve had, and the price point for what should have been in a feature patch two months ago + LS for free, the former is already happening.
So why reinforce it?
If the content we’re getting was actually worth the $50, or wasn’t add-in content that should have been there from the beginning, nobody would really have the right to complain. It’s just from what we know, we’re not getting very much in HoT.
The base game isn’t free.
Since the base game is standalone, why can’t I just download that and play it for its content first, and not pay $50 like every other veteran player?
No, the base game isn’t free, because there isn’t a “base game” that’s free an independent of HoT. ANet is just including the expansion as part of its “base game” and is charging everyone $50 to play HoT.
what the kitten is wrong with people this days?
the expansion price is good and fair .
simple as that.
Except it isn’t from what we know of so far.
We’re seeing some content updates that fall on the scale of free mods for skyrim by a few guys with their free time, not paid employees of a AAA studio with an astronomical budget.
I didn’t plan on getting HoT unless it wowed me. So far, I’m seeing QoL updates and some system changes that had to be done to keep the game afloat, with not much more content than a year’s worth of LS (which has been put off in anticipation for this expansion).
$50/$60 is the cost of a brand new AAA title. That is the standard in a multi-billion dollar industry. Maybe if this expansion had that level of content in it, the price would be justified, but for what I’m seeing, I’d maybe pay $10 because not much has honestly been developed.
I imagine they’re going to create another package for upgrading, but the responses from ANet have been poor. I sincerely do hope very few people pre-purchased because tey have no idea how little content we’re likely in store for from HoT.
Deceiver….please…
Let’s not lie to ourselves here. This is the pricing for everyone. Period.
Let’s also not forget that while an extra character slot is 10 USD they are selling the version of this expansion for 75 USD, or basically 25 dollars more than the standard version without an additional character slot.
And no, that other nonsense in game cosmetic fluff is not worth the additional 15 dollars there. The slot should have been a part of the standard package, but hey greed wins out again I guess.
I already had no intention on buying the expansion pack unless it truly wowed me and the price is right. I refuse to pre-order or do anything of the sort until I have a solid understanding of exactly what I’m getting. I hate hype. And ANet seems to love hyping things up.
But frankly, this move is just bad business logic. ANet has enough money-grabbing economists and corporate financial advisers to understand this would cut massively into profits not too far down the road, and make a ton of people just leave the game altogether from bad business, especially as other games are coming out around the corner this fall.
This is absolutely a money-grab to get people to pay the $50 for the beta access/rush pre-purchase and the expansion itself as add-on content will probably go on sale for substantially less afterwards.
If it doesn’t? Then ANet will see a substantial drop in profits and user activity very soon. No sweat off my back. Frankly, I hope we see more bleepslaps and players as a whole start holding companies accountable more per the style of paid mods for Skyrim on Steam.
We’ve barely got any info and people are complaining, though.
I also think it’s hilarious since so many people were crying for a paid expansion, many of which are now crying about the paid expansion being unwanted and bringing in bad content. They’ve been blind for the past few years obviously as the game has slowly gotten corrupted by sub-par updates and typical MMO-business practices.
There’s still not enough information to start raising a skrittstorm, though.
The $50 fee includes a key to the base game, which is what, $40?
Probably a $10-20 expansion as an upgrade. They’ve only released the info for new account packages.
I see it more as an issue in PvP/WvW if you would say, get matched up against someone you blocked. You’d die from thin air.
This would also prevent people in PvP from blocking really annoying/offensive people talking smack on the opposing team as then their enemies would be invisible, thus possibly boosting toxic behavior and only rewarding people for behaving in such negative ways.
Being stalked? Whisper/tell them to stop, if they don’t, send a ticket/report and get them banned.
Looking at the new Practiced Tolerance trait, I’m really confused.
As it stands, PT gives 7% precision → vitality, as a means of beefing up our squishy butts while focusing on crit builds/crit strikes.
The AMA livestream changes mentioned this number was getting raised to 10%. Okay, but this trait becomes really important with the removal of Applied Fortitude from WvW and the buff to condition damage while not changing our cleansing much.
Is the announced change to PT (10% precision converted into Ferocity) really going to negate the only +vit/condition damage resistance we have as a crit strikes build in favor of silly damage (which punishes valkyrie users trying to offset this), or is the announcement a typo?
I’m really hoping it’s a typo. I’m one for damage (I play signets), but there’s a line that needs to be drawn in regards to condition damage problems already plaguing the class. Not to mention our access to Resistance from Acrobatics has been removed.
Regarding Thief:
The changes to Critical Strikes are alright, but still underwhelming. The only thing that might tempt me into the line is the combination of Ferocious Strikes and No Quarter, but unless you’re going for an all-or-nothing damage build, I don’t think those 2 traits which rely on RNG to deal a maximum of about +13% damage is worth giving up 5-6 consistently useful traits in another line. Other than that, it shows some creative thought went into this line.
Acrobatics was underwhelming at the last preview as well; it only really offered Swindler’s Equilibrium, with Feline Grace as more of a bonus than a reason to go into the line (I don’t consider it necessary as it is now either, and right now it’s stronger). I mean, I was even considering going into Shadow Arts to allow me to assist with reviving – which isn’t something you want your roamers to build for -, and gain access to stealth while out of combat for S/D with “release blinding powder when you steal.” Although, the combination of the three minors Merciful Ambush, Meld with Shadows and Resilience of Shadows was very strong – especially when considering the damage reduction could stack with protection from a team mate. Now, the improved Endless Stamina makes the new Feline Grace more attractive, and the slight buff to Pain Response it welcomed especially with the condition changes. But it’s the addition of (at long last!) desirable grandmasters for this line that make it a contender. Acrobatics looks extremely advertising as a trait line now. Great job!
One further change I must suggest for Acrobatics concerns Pain Response. It is taken for the condition cleansing, not the regeneration, but due to the way it activates, it isn’t a very reliable condition cleanse. I’d rather save it until I actually had damaging conditions on me before it triggered – even if I was to be below 30% health. The regeneration really is just an added bonus. I’d be fine it it was removed, just so the trait would become something like: “While affected by a damaging condition, if struck below 75% health, cleanse all damaging conditions [and gain regeneration].” Ideally it’d trigger when taken below 75% health from a condition tick as well as a direct hit.
Question:
Regarding the aforementioned “release blinding powder when you steal” which was an added feature to the trait Decent of Shadows, has that trait been removed, or is it to be merged with Last Refuge or was it added somewhere and I missed it? Usually I’d assume it was removed, but every class has a reduced falling damage trait, and that was the one for thief. I also noticed the +10% damage we saw with Improvisation last time wasn’t listed either… Same question: removed or missed/omitted from the post?
I think crit strikes would be really good if cloak and dagger got an added benefit of your next single stealth attack strike automatically critting. This makes D/D more consistent with its burst and maintain its heavy emphasis in its “damage or bust” kit setup while keeping P/D crit effects at bay and D/P more fair/utility-oriented. Crit strikes then becomes a very solid DPS trait line.
Thief Improvisation combined with Consume plasma seems to be too strong.
Consume plasma gives 10s of all the boons in game while steal has close to 20s cooldown.
This means, as long as thief enters a fight where an enemy mesmer is present, the thief can get close to 100% uptime of all boons in the game. That sounds a bit too scary to me.
Already been stated by Karl that the duration of all of the effects is being reduced by half to make steal when traited give a total of the same duration it gives now. Most bundles are being nerfed this way.
If the stats are totaled similarly as they are now in full condition gear, bleeding and torment will see about a 50% damage buff. The rest are getting coefficient nerfs, but I would say we should be concerned with the direction the game is going in.
@OP:
The camaraderie likely stems from rangers previously being a bottom-tier class really sub-par at… everything. The community of ranger players could only really try to help improve each other to justify themselves to everyone else.
Since the changes, this is definitely shifting, however. A lot of players have picked up pew pew ranger as a means of easy kills. It’s a bitter satisfaction to the more original longbow/GS pewpew players (alas I am one of them), for their builds are now viable, but at the expense of garnered kills as being justifiably “too easy.” My motto regarding skilled rangers comes from their capacity to fight with their secondary set.
You’re probably seeing a lot of criticism come from the Thief and Guard communities because the professions when not played properly are absolutely abysmal, and that these professions have some complaint-worthy builds that even enthusiasts of the professions themselves dislike seeing and consider an insult to the playing population.
I’ve been a thief/ranger dual main since launch, so I can only truly speak for the thief community in that there is nothing more frustrating than seeing really naive-starry-eyed newcomer thieves refuse advice and cause huge losses for the team (you’re aware of the difficulty as you mention), or watching your class get nerfed over and over due to the existence of a few very, very, very overpowered skill/trait/gear combinations (P/D dire perplexity in WvW) while those players brag about “skills”/trash-talk and the very essence of these builds only gets buffed over time and never addressed. Because of these builds, you also get rude/toxic bandwagon players wanting the newest FoTM faceroll build (like pewpew ranger) who like to talk smack when they win and talk smack when their allies don’t.
@mist:
The celestial “meta” only really came into existence in sPvP after ANet buffed celestial stats in sPvP to a mathematically-imbalanced value, where very simple theorycrafting would demonstrate there was almost zero mathematical reasoning for all classes except the thief to use anything else. Engineers and Elementalists just benefit the most from these amulets due to a variety of high-scaling hybrid damage sources already within their more standard builds’ grasps.
(edited by DeceiverX.8361)
…
Thieves should have had F1-F4 skills, each as Steal but with different effects. For example, F1 = Steal + Thrill, F2 = Steal + Bounty, F3 = Steal + Mug, F4 = Steal + Daze — or whatever.
This way all these triggers will not happen at the same time using a single Skill.
So yes, let’s stay away from trying to balance Steal instead focus on the traits.
I just want to point out this is kind of a silly suggestion since one could just activate F1-F4 at the same time since they’re all instant-cast and do not interrupt currently-activating skills. It’d also give the thief access to four teleports which would be kind of insane.
What should have happened was Just giving the thief F1-F3, F1 being a separate teleport, possibly being able to be traited to turn into a Shadowstep, F2 being the “steal” skill itself, usable from melee only, which applies the effects and snags a bundle, F3 being the ability of the stolen bundle.
Now you’re looking at a virtue/shatter-equivalent where the cooldowns can be tracked separately and traits can be applied to different aspects of the class mechanic separately. Builds become more diverse and/or either specialized or higher APM like other classes involving teleports + effects.
As a side note, never – EVER – argue that mug being unable to crit is a disadvantage. It used to be able to, and I can tell you now that under current gear, I could one-shot any non-warrior berserker build in the game from pressing this one button if it were able to crit. It can’t crit, but its damage coefficient is extremely high, especially relative to other damaging effects after a teleport.
Try this one man, the aoe and vuln that comes from bow helps a lot when fighting downed opponents from a safe distance. D/P also provides a stackable stealth if you use Heartseeker to leap through Black Powder.
http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Thief_-_Dagger/Pistol
Edit: Your bow’s #3 ability allows you to evade as well, if you find yourself immobilized just spam #3 and then use Shadow Step to get out when you run out of initiativeI completely agree with this post for the most part. I don’t recommend the spamming 3 until you’re out of int though. That’s just asking for a bad place to be in, especially if the opponent has access to gap closers (which most do). Dagger/Pistol is great overall though.
The sad reality is SS when spammed has the best DPS available when the target is above 50%, and also applies constant blinding and gap-closing. It’s also skill-less easymode a lot of D/P PS meta-bandwagoning players are looking for.
Should it be nerfed in damage, D/P would not be used as successfully as it is.
Am I the only one that finds no problem surviving in PVE on my D/D Thief? If it was about PVP or WvW I would understand it, but in PVE D/D is one of the best sets ever.
No, you’re not the only one. Berserker D/D is considered the best PvE combination for the thief and is required in most top-tier speed run groups. Anyone claiming that they have trouble in most content scenarios and is asking for kit buffs is experiencing a L2P issue and just needs to learn the encounters better/play better. The majority of all legitimate complaints about D/D stem from sPvP as the kit works (reasonably) for WvW with CnD’s higher damage and overall better damage values.
Fragility: I use Full Berserker armor, full damage build trait set-up. I use 2 ways to heal myself, Invigorating Precision trait in Critical Strikes and Withdraw healing skill. I take Withdraw instead of Signet of Malice because I might need burst heals in PVE AND it cures movement conditions, plus it has a very low cooldown, heals for a good amount and gives an extra dodge all in one skill. Using these two in combination I have the sustain I need in most PvE encounters AND I can escape easily if I’m chilled/crippled etc.
There’s no real need for Invig Precision, but I guess a durable PvE approach would make these decisions rather implicit if needed. Most skilled PvE thieves will use HK/Executioner and switch as needed before encounters. Again, this is strictly PvE. Invigorating Precision is almost worthless in PvP/WvW because you’re not dealing 5x the damage of your enemies constantly to make it break remotely even, especially without HK/Executioner, not to mention heal cuts from poison and CC effects which will cut off your healing.
When fighting groups of mobs I go S/P and faceroll (usually also switch Withdraw to Signet of Malice for extra healing) Pistol offhand provides extra blinds, helps with mob groups.
Problems with dots: when I really need conditions cleansing (rare in PVE) I use D/D and cleanse with Cloak and Dagger and Shadow’s Embrace. It’s a no cooldown on-demand condition cleaning that is also very spammable that also provides stealth, vulnerability and a great deal of damage (for IP). Withdraw takes care of the other conditions
The problem with SE is that it’s in the SA line. While it’s not uncommon for classes to have good condition cleansing located within a trait line, the thief lacks this elsewhere except from a very-long cooldown utility used for other purposes (Shadowstep), or on a particular mainhand weapon (sword) which can only cleanse one condition per 5 initiative. With this, the biggest issue is also the trait Last Refuge, which often causes D/D thieves to die if it procs while they attempt a CnD on their target, as this forces the revealed debuff when CnD lands instead of stealthing as desired. It’s not much of an issue for D/P as there is no attack which is used to stealth, so the proc doesn’t do anything except maybe give them stealth during their stealth.
I probably wouldn’t be playing without these things.
Character leveling, for me, is mostly a one-time deal. It’s interesting to see the first time through, maybe catch up on some missed things a second time, or re-live some glorious moments every so often, but frankly, it gets old, and I think it gets old really, really fast.
I believe I’m 10 or 12 80’s deep now, and I can comfortably say that after leveling 6 or seven the “normal” way, I had absolutely no interest whatsoever to keep making characters and grinding them up. Unlike more traditional MMO’s, where the leveling process gets faster each repeated time you do it (better gear/skills/builds, better spots, guild runs, new tricks/more experience, etc., the leveling process in GW2 is pretty similar in its speed (except EoTM), and most of the systems in-game hold you back too much from doing anything out of the ordinary like a true professional – I can’t do things way behind my character’s intended potential and get way-beyond-normal rewards for them – instead, I get no kill/event credit per the mechanics of the game.
Consider PvP players, too, who were sold the game on the basis they could level up entirely through PvP. Tomes are and have been the system used to let players level their characters through PvP, as the completion of matches alone does nothing for PvE experience gains.
In which case the added traits are making them effective in battle. Mesmer weapons are not as potent as a DP’s base. The fact that PS thieves are in such a great place and able to fro flows their steal should tell you something, but apparently it doesn’t. And yeah, by the time a Mesmer gained the clones and set up time to cycle through each of their shatters the thief probably already used Steal twice. Still you are both ignoring the much longer cooldown of Mesmers shatters save for Mindwrack.
It’s not Mesmer as the primary on 95% of elite teams, which has t changed since launch, let me remind you. That isn’t just a magical anomaly.
Can you stop using that? Thieves might be great at backcapping and exploding terrible players but that in no way is a factor into the overpowered equation.
Steal is the least of your worries. You should be worrying about what comes afterwards. And hey, there is the telegraph for backstab. Yay.
“You can use stolen items twice”
Guild Wars 2 – Ready Up: Episode 32
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPqYpcteqac
And with that, per the words of Karl, the potency of most of the stolen bundles the thief gets will be reduced on average by around 50% to make it similarly powerful as to how it is now, with just a small boost in a few of them.
Will this cement at least 2 points in SA into all of our post update builds? I was pretty hyped for 66006 and 60066.
There’s no choice; you can only spec 6 deep in a line after the changes. No more 2-point dipping.
I think 6/0/6/6/0 is probably going to be what most people go for, if not 0/0/6/6/6 and just forgetting about Panic Strike and the damage portions of DA on the basis that conditions are just going to be too strong to not take SA + Acrobatics for absolute maximum condition immunity.
I potentially see thieves becoming almost pointless in any PvP scenario after these changes take place.
I have a good feeling the game is going to quickly turn into condi wars 2, as if it already wasn’t bad enough.
okay if mesmers had one F1 ability (F1-F4 combined) here’s a list of what it could do with the build 4/4/0/0/6:
- Damage (same damage as mug with 1 only illusion and can crit)
- Rip Boons (1 per illusion)
- Confusion (2 stacks of confusion, per illusion)
- Might (1 per illusion)
- Daze (1 second per illusion)
- Vulnerability (5 stacks per illusion, when you interrupt)
- Distortion (1 sec per illusion)
Now because they’re separated you get not only 4 might stacks per shatter (Illusionary Persona) you can rip 4 boons per shatter. That is:
- huge damage (mug is 410, Mind Wrack with 3 illusions is 726)
- 16 stacks of might
- 16 boons removed
- 20 stacks of confusion
- 4 second Daze (you can get this just have to stagger your illusions and account for run time)
- 20 stacks of vulnerability (I know hard to get on just 1 shatter but this is best case scenario)
- 4 seconds of Distortion
All of that without really specing into shatters all that much.
Which ignores various illusion requirements per shatter, build up time including phantasm cast times, illusion deaths, individual cooldowns that are not 21 seconds and more (but not perfectly) telegraphed.
You’re relating something and buffing it by a HUGE margin to prove a faulty point.
Straw man.
Even if it takes time to build up that much, a mesmer can still provide that much with less commitment to traits vs thief.
In which case the added traits are making them effective in battle. Mesmer weapons are not as potent as a DP’s base. The fact that PS thieves are in such a great place and able to fro flows their steal should tell you something, but apparently it doesn’t. And yeah, by the time a Mesmer gained the clones and set up time to cycle through each of their shatters the thief probably already used Steal twice. Still you are both ignoring the much longer cooldown of Mesmers shatters save for Mindwrack.
It’s not Mesmer as the primary on 95% of elite teams, which has t changed since launch, let me remind you. That isn’t just a magical anomaly.
Since when is steal tied to D/P PS?
As a side note to the OP, the benefits of steal are really only there for builds that build so heavily into it. Not saying that maybe some changes need to be made to these builds, it’s just that I don’t think giving it an initiative cost is the right place to start.
Here’s an equivalent to what you’re suggesting from a point of view you can understand (I’ve played most of my sPvP matches as a mesmer over my thief because I find my thief too useless unless playing D/P panic strike which is boring and rather lack-luster except for running circles around the map waiting for a +1 or an uncontested point):
Each mesmer shatter should increase the cooldown of each of the mesmer’s abilities, including other shatters, by 3s flat with an additional +50% increase in cooldown timers, ignoring the abilities of the chronomancer to speed up cooldown timers or the benefits of alacrity or reset potential.
While you’re not wrong in that learning to dodge steal is hard to do, it is very far from impossible. I consistently do it across all of my characters after playing thief extensively. It’s a matter of anticipation and learning your opponent. People do it constantly in the higher tiers of play. The thief is in a very similar position to the mesmer in sPvP and is strictly weaker in WvW. The only reason thieves are seen in competitive sPvP is because of their mobility; it allows them to +1 fights and take uncontested locations. Aside from a few select matchups, such as against power shatter mesmer 1v1, the thief is considered to be one of the weakest classes in sPvP due to its inability to fight without assistance.
(edited by DeceiverX.8361)
Thief is not OP. Condi thief is very OP. They are thieves with training wheels.
Condi thief is not OP, in my opinion it’s the most balanced spec of the thief class.
Firstly the damage is not so high that you can’t heal it back. They have alot of drawbacks in terms of survivability and require good positioning to land your 5th and 3rd skill.
I hold Condi thieves in high respect. Infact the spec deserves a few much needed buffs.
You have just lost any miniscule amount of credibility you had. This post alone is screen-shot-worthy because of how absolutely absurd it is. Someone please close this thread for trolling, as OP is clearly delusional.
Perfect example. You say condi needs to be buffed. rolls eyes
Except it doesn’t…..
Fix DD and PP’s identity crisis and cond caps and you solve a ton of issues.
D/D doesn’t have an identity crisis; it’s just a poor performer at everything except burst damage, and its 3/4 skills are just strictly bad (speaking for the incoming dash/leap changes).
I think P/P dire condi perplexity is going to be the strongest condition build available after the changes for WvW; 3 confusion 3 torment on an interrupt build with range and blinds with a bleeding auto is absolutely terrifying. I see no reason for power builds to use P/P beyond these changes. P/D will probably be more overpowered, but the sheer damage and lockdown and DoT potential from P/P is totally and utterly absurd.
Mine is pretty straightforward:
Normal use:
wasd = movement; 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 = skills 1-5; 6 = heal
Utility 7 = Naga 1
Utility 8 = Naga 2
Utility 9 = Naga 3
Elite = Naga 6
SwapWeapons = Naga 8
Lock Target (Deselect Tap) = Naga 9
I got fairly used to the default keybinds and in general have been playing MMO’s for years, so I have gotten familiar with a lot of the more standard MMO control schemes involving the left hand, thus I use fewer bindings. My hands are on the smaller side, though, and GW2’s need for pressing 7/8/9/0 in action-based combat made me need a new mouse. I originally looked into a Hex, but a friend of mine got one, I got the chance to try before I bought, and it felt cheap and low-quality.
My experience with Razer has been poor, however. I’m on my third naga in a year, and the LED’s on my current one have had some failure issues for a few months. The others just were DOA and simply stopped working after the first few weeks of use. Their customer support is worthless, and I’m happy I purchased mine from Amazon and bought a warranty; the DOA was replaced by Amazon with free overnight shipping on the return and the new one, and the third party company got my third model with little trouble. I heard back from Razer regarding the DOA one about three months later, stating that they would RMA it but it would take an additional 8-12 weeks. Talk about bad service.
I’m looking to purchase from other companies in the future. Just my experience, though.
The standard sPvP builds usually are the most forgiving because they’re the best numerically and often that carries with them the highest skill floor.
When it comes to the thief, asking for techniques, watching videos, and just practice, practice, practice, is all that will help make you better as a player.
I think that the condition changes are poorly conceived. Having a variety of different tools that have a variety of different uses in a variety of different situations is superior to a variety of different tools that are all but indistinguishable from each other.
Facing a foe with a fast attack rate? Throw some confusion.
Facing a foe with a slower attack rate? Use something else.But there are almost no foes in all of PvE with a fast enough attack rate to make confusion viable. Therefore, confusion isn’t really viable in all of PvE. If you’re a PvPer confusion wasn’t as much of a problem, but it never really worked well anywhere in PvE. That’s an entire condition that there was no real reason to use there. It had to change and I’m not sure how you could have changed it to make it better.
I don’t believe there were any good answers, for any of it. But I think what’s coming is a pretty good compromise. It certainly wasn’t working as it was.
I do believe in a separate announcement they also made note that they plan on buffing confusion further in PvE by multiplying its damage coefficient in PvE (Not WvW) by something like three times.
Resistance is 100% condition damage reduction. Much more potent than 33% (also, thieves and warriors get access off the top of my head, so it’s not revenant only).
Also, vitality becomes that much more important. Shaman, magi, carrion, sentinel, valkyrie, all that.
Like someone else already mentioned, retal procs on attacks, conditions are applied by attacks.
Just because one thing changes didn’t mean you’re owed “compensation”
Maybe google the definition of compensation. This would be balancing.
As for resistance. 1 skill granting resistance for a few seconds isnt much for counter play. I am willing to bet 100$ that if the new condi changes are released exactly how they described it will be nerfed/changed within 2 weeks.
They ignore the PvP and WvW communities too much, so I’d say maybe six months on the next “feature pack” for a balance change.
I believe it is that long to prevent people from waiting it out and then teleporting forward again to chase an enemy.
Its already possible now.
Just jump and use it at the same time, you’ll not shadowstep back when you use return, and it will only clear your conditions.
Tho using it takes 5 initiative, but still handy when you are out of shadowsteps.It’s up to you to judge whether you’ll need the return, and use both versions according to the situation.
This is an exploit (Taking advantage of an unintended interaction), and shouldn’t be considered as a viable tactic for using the skill.
If they want to fix it, or feel the need to due to balance issues, they can. There are already circumstances almost identical to a jump-cast which force the return anyways. Almost every S/D thief worth their salt uses this “exploit.”
Then almost every S/D thief worth their salt is exploiting. “Alot of people are doing it” and “The set isn’t balanced correctly” are not excuses to exploit bugs. We’re not talking about a company who moves quickly – the ele lightning whip/stow was an acknowledged bug for a while before it was fixed. Just because Anet isn’t scrambling to fix it is not an excuse to knowingly and purposefully exploit a bug.
Can we confirm the effects of changing this skill would be detrimental? Can we confirm that this is actually an exploit or something intentionally ignored?
I’m saying that it’s created depth within the weapon’s kit for a positive reason and has upped the skill cap of the thief as a whole while opening more builds. I’m saying that because of what it offers, people have taken to it as a means of utilizing their weapons and class capabilities to the best of their abilities.
Exploit or not, it is a viable tactic, which is what I’m telling you is flawed about your post. Maybe it will be changed or fixed down the road because maybe it is seen as an unintended interaction and ANet would rather change the utility as a whole or sees reason to remove this interaction, and yes, it can not be argued against as something that is possibly going to be changed or worth changing, but to say it’s not a viable tactic is simply factually incorrect because of what it may bring to the class or methods of playing.
It is even moreso viable now than ever with the changes that make dash skills immune to soft CC. Good luck catching a GS warrior ever again without the use of repeated teleports.
It’s also important to remember that as soon as you activate the signet the power granted by the passive is subtracted. That means you don’t get 15% more damage than with the signet on passive but only 15% more damage than without signet at all.
Depending on how much power your character has from other sources that can mean that the active bonus is quite negligible (I tested it downleveled on Bloodtide Coast and with the signet active I got only about 2% more damage than with signet passive. Basically, the more power you have from other sources, the smaller the contribution of the passive power bonus and the bigger the bonus of the active).
Again, which is why I strictly recommend never using the signet’s active effect at all unless one is traited for Signets of Power, as Power is always a better bonus because it increases your damage by much more against high-armor foes than a % modifier.
I believe it is that long to prevent people from waiting it out and then teleporting forward again to chase an enemy.
Its already possible now.
Just jump and use it at the same time, you’ll not shadowstep back when you use return, and it will only clear your conditions.
Tho using it takes 5 initiative, but still handy when you are out of shadowsteps.It’s up to you to judge whether you’ll need the return, and use both versions according to the situation.
This is an exploit (Taking advantage of an unintended interaction), and shouldn’t be considered as a viable tactic for using the skill.
If they want to fix it, or feel the need to due to balance issues, they can. There are already circumstances almost identical to a jump-cast which force the return anyways. Almost every S/D thief worth their salt uses this “exploit.”
Reducing the recall duration would straight up make me stop using sword, though. I use this set exclusively as a means of withdrawing from combat after engaging or to bait multiple skills and recover and reset. 7s is so short it’d only really be useful to just spam 2 and 3 on S/x builds, as if that already wasn’t bad enough on this class.
I understand I’m in the minority here, but…
I love Dancing Dagger.
DB is shaky, and I’d rather see an upped evade and a blood nerf (condi 3spam criers will fight to the ends of the earth to allow this, though), but please do leave my Dancing Dagger, unless all that is meant to change is the projectile reliability. That cripple allows for an incredible amount of lockdown on high-movespeed targets such as war/engi/ele, it can pop Guard Aegis without going into combat, and the bounce damage is fairly high when trying to defend a keep wall without a ranged option at the time (I primarily use D/D + S/D).
I really do like the premise of DB operating like warrior’s Whirlwind Attack (fixed damage/linear gap closer with decent range), even if the evade duration isn’t improved, just to allow the skill to be used as a better evasion tool/relocation tool..
They touched Dancing Dagger.
Actually, they straight mutilated it from a fantastic utility ability into an objectively bad and rather pointless skill.
This statement is now entirely false with the DoT and Dash change. The skill is now completely worthless and serves absolutely no use whatsoever. Spamming 2 will always be better in every regard and situation while Dancing Dagger offers what is now extremely poor utility, damage, range and reliability as well as an overly-high initiative cost.
As if condi bomb mesmer and engi couldn’t already deal totally BS amounts of damage with ridiculous mitigation.
I guess everyone’s building sinister now, right?
Might as well just give warriors immunity to the cripple condition.
I speak from a thief perspective – which will benefit greatly from this change – and think this idea is stupid.
I could see changing retaliation to being based on a percentage of damage dealt per attack. Right now it scales off of the power of the one the boon is on, so 100 1-damage strikes will kill the attacker dead while 1 15000-damage hit will do almost nothing to the attacker.
Maybe that’s just it though. Most super bursty combos rely on a lot of hits coming in all at once, and retaliation is a sure way to counter that. Nobody has a 15k damage single-hit attack though.
War, thief, guard, and ele do, or at least very close to it.
While I’m inclined to agree, Dave, I think P/D dire perplexity thief is pretty out of line.
The thief class itself isn’t – Engineers are way worse to deal with as a whole – but this particular build is so ridiculously overpowered that the traits alone have been proven to be able to carry this build; there is a thief that plays this with no weapons at all because it’s just too overpowered to make any justifiable claim of player skill.
Nobody really knows. From what has been revealed so far (no pun intended), either it has been totally removed, or it has been made baseline.
I commend Dahkeus for the tip on how to deal with Guardians, but that is not the problem here.
To improve your skill, you need to pay more attention on what you’re doing than what your opponent is doing because unlike the other professions, you make a mistake as a Thief…it’s over.
So let’s not focus on what the Guardian was doing, but instead, tell us what you were doing, what build were you running and what is your playstyle?
If you master the Thief profession, it doesn’t really matter who your opponent is.
I completely disagree. Unlike the other professions, the thief does not have rotations and thus needs to be focused entirely on what his enemy is doing rather than trying to set up for something. Repositioning and basic mechanics, such as Infiltrator’s/Shadow Return locations should be mastered to the point where focus is not needed to know where you’ll be returning to and how far away you can move while returning on point. Only there can you start worrying about matchups, especially to guards. Shoutbow and Cele (and a variety of engineer builds) can almost totally ignore their enemies on principle that what their opponents are doing doesn’t matter as long as they maintain their rotations properly. The thief is the exact opposite.
Guards do well against thieves as a whole, so there is no real way to promote “win advice” or a way to utilize rotations to take advantage of the matchup in really any way. My biggest advice is to get a feel for playing a guard and learning the weaknesses of the guard and how to take advantage of them as a thief. Getting a feel for animation timing/a solid handle on their mechanics and paying attention to what they’re doing (or what they aren’t able to do) is how you’re going to beat them.
(edited by DeceiverX.8361)
Don’t get me wrong, I also run 0 in SA.
That said, when Kormir is our best burst condition cleansing ability, there’s an issue with thief’s condi burst cleansing.
Anyone else bothered by the fact that there is a trait that makes a single skill/mechanic +100% more effective (1 use changes to 2 uses)?
Doesn’t that seem like a balancing issue waiting to happen?
Either it’s likely to be UP without the trait if it’s balanced with it …
… or it’s likely to be OP with the trait if it’s balance without it …
This has been a looming concern of mine. While I see the healing seed change as a buff as it helps with burst cleansing more, I question how well the skills themselves can be made balanced with and without this trait.
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