My solution to this problem is to add more Soulbound/Account-bound rewards that cannot be bought on TP with gold. (a.ka. they are RNG drops).
Get the kitten outta Dodge. Seriously, just go away.
The last thing this game needs is more soulbound, and more RNG.
While I don’t agree on more Soulbound/Account-bound. (I think some of those drops should be soulbound or account-bound but there is already a lot of that so the number should for sure not increase, better it decrease) but the RNG is a whole other story.
Everybody hates the RNG you see in this game. Buying boxes and then have x% change to get something and thats why everybody complains about that but in the end most drops in MMO’s are always RNG. there is nothing wrong with that. So there is RNG and there is RNG. The type of RNG OP is talking about is not bad. It just means you have an option to go for the item you want (you know it can drop from dungeon x) in stead of having to farm dungeons for gold to buy it.
In many of those cases the RNG is now already there but extremely low change yet it can drop from many places. Meaning you can’t really farm for that one item. Instead you need to farm gold to buy it from somebody who was also farming for gold and got the item you want.
What a funny topic!
Skin P2W? xD
So whole game is P2W if you buy gems and transform them in to the gold?
I dont see point of ur topic at all.You can transform all ur gold in gems and have everything from gem store all the time.
Skins are just for “better” look.Devs please close this topic.
@OP see this post. Even after you tried to make it clear they still just react on the P2W. Really, just rewrte it not using the P2W but just saying how it’s not good what they do with the gem-store.
@Levian No you can’t transfer gold into gems. Thats one of the reasons they make many things temporary. Sense of urgency and not being able to generate the money you need to buy the items in time.
So if somebody has another opinion (while that might not even be the case as you just flame about GW2 not being P2W while thats not even what OP is saying) they should not be allowed to show that opinion. You would love NK I think.
But everyone has a different end game. If your end game is WvW,that has nothing to do with skins. If your end game is making a legendary through playing (as opposed to buying it) that also has nothing to do with the gem store.
I have two legendaries and I’m working on a third, but the stuff I bought from the gem shop has nothing to do with them.
If someone wants to buy a legendary then for them, sure, the end game would be buying a legendary…but I personally don’t see the point of that. I’d rather wait and get it.
“If your end game is making a legendary through playing (as opposed to buying it) that also has nothing to do with the gem store.”
Problem is that thats almost impossible because you cant really farm for the ingredients. You need to farm for the gold. Then again that is more a subject for the gold = everything thread. Except for the fact that then gem > gold option is (one of) the reason(s) why Anet wants the gold = everything.
WvW players would indeed have the least problem with this from the gem-store is this game. At the same time, because they are the least connected to the gem-store they also get less attention then the PvE section. So in that way the gem-store does effect them but not so much in a game-play way. It’s then maybe also np wonder that many of the people that do stay for a longer period seem to be very active in WvW.
And again there is the kill argument again. This is a PvE game. The goal is fluff, not killing.
There is more killing in PvE than in PvP. Killing monsters is not your goal in game but that does not necessarily hold true for others.
There is indeed a lot of killing but with maybe the exception of a few bosses no the killing is not the goal, the loot that people can get from the kill is the goal in at least 95% of all kills.
Source ?
Lol this is exacly the type of reaction I was referring too before when people would take a hyperbole to serious. Everybody with half a brain knows people are not killing every mob for the kill but for the mob. No source for that.
But heey you show me the source to proof they do it for the fun.
By your logic, Devata, even Mmo with sub like wow is a P2W game. For example, they offer sometime the best looking mount only available in their cash shop, a cash shop that does not convert gold to… a currency. What is wow endgame all about? To obtain the best possible gearn both in pve and pvp you can get, raid/gladiator tittle, and MOUNTS!
Partly true. The big difference is that for example WoW used to have (don’t know about now) only a very small collection of items in the cash-shop and so for many people that does not even really count. Meanwhile they keep putting many of those items new into the game (game world) itself. Some very good looking.
In many micro-transaction based game you see that the cash-shop plays a much bigger role and they put a lot of those sort of items in the gem-store while adding less into the game itself. Best example might be mini’s. How many mini’s are in WoW available in the cash-shop and how many in the game itself. Now look add GW2.
It’s exactly that mentality why I hate F2P games. Because Anets name with GW1 for mainly generating income with expansions and GW2 asking money for the box (so it looked liked they would go a similar way with GW2) I had hopes for GW2. Sadly they also turned into that micro-transaction based income with all these sort of negative side-effects.
Because in those games the cash-shop does play a much lesser role it’s just counts less for people and there are still many many many more things to get in the game compared to what is available in the cahs-shop. But yeah those available in there usually belong to the best looking ones thats true.
Personally I don’t care because it’s such a small portion and for many it simply does not even really ‘counts’ but if somebody says that that should not be the case (such items in a cash-shop also not a few like in WoW) for similar reasons as here discussed then I would totally understand that.
Guild wars 2 needs to make money in a way or another. They decided to add more item via gemstore than many other mmo with a sub, which is understandable. In fact, that’s exactly how a Buy to play game should work, it is perfectly fine with me. There is nothing to debate really.
For you it is fine for enough other people it isen’t.
And yes they need to make money, let them do it with a focus on expansion sales in stead of a focus on gem sales. That’s in fact how a B2P game sould work. A F2P game should get it’s money from micro-transactions.
But then again, maybe it’s just to complicated for you to understand what OP is talking about. Thats oke, I don’t blame you, no hard feelings.
And if you understood the joke you would understand that I don’t care if some is decked out in fluff looking gear. What does that prove? What have they won the I are looking cool? Ever last person has pointed out to you that this is not P2W no matter if it’s on the PVP side of the PVE side.
What has your personal opinion about not caring about fluff to do with anything? Some people don’t care about losing / dying in a fight, does that then also mean P2W does not exist in PvP games? No it doesn’t.
Yeah indeed everybody pointed out that this is not literally P2W, indeed. But then again, thats not what OP is saying. So the problem is that everybody keeps pointing out that it’s not literally P2W. However, just like P2W is bad for a game because of some reasons related to the game-play. What Anet is now doing with the gem-store is also bad for this game related to this game-play. Thats basically what OP is saying. But nobody is really reacting on that.
Like I said, he should rewrite it without using the term P2W. That might help. It would then still say the same but people would non only see the P2W and forget about the rest of the text.[/quote]
Because we as in me and the other posters are point out to you is that we don’t care. For many of us we just don’t care about fluff gear that adds no stats and that we can make are own gear in game.
If someone wants to by fluff gear in the gem shop good for them. None of us care. That is what we are trying to tell you and the OP. But again you keep on and on of how much it matters like it means something. We just don’t care that much about fluff gear as much as we do about just playing the game. The fluff gear is just icing on the cake.
But if the cake does not taste good then who cares how good the icing looks. If you really care about the fluff gear that much then you really don’t understand what P2W or why people play MMOs.[/quote]
I said before that I personally don’t even care so much about this. I dislike what they are doing with the gem-store for other reasons. (all said in previous comments, not gonna repeat). But the fact that you or me do not care does not mean it can’t be a problem. If many people care it can still be a problem. The fact that some people might also not care about getting killed in games does also not mean that P2W can not be a problem.
So react on the thread, not on the fact if it’s P2W and that is exactly what many people are doing.
Check this thread: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Will-it-happen-again/page/2#post3281636
Aperantly Anet can make a mistake according to Vayne but then why is it a mistake? Because there exist a general, or majority, consensus? But that does not exist according to Vayne. But that does not exist according to him. Or at least it can not be determent.
A majority or general consensus is not required for something to be a mistake. According to ANet the implementation of the skin was unintended. If everyone had loved it it would still have been a mistake (according to ANet), just a fortuitous one.
However now Anet in this case seem to have listened to the people of course it is a good thing that Anet does. While here the plee seemed to be Anet should not listen because there does not exist something like a general, or majority, consensus?
Attempting to please your customers, even if they do not represent a majority or general consensus is a good idea. There will be two sides to any issue however and the difficult part will likely be balancing the desires of one group against the other.
It really comes down to defending Anet for the sake of defending it. However that might be because of some blind love. Not judging about that, however it shows that it’s not just based on some logic. If Anet did exactly the opposite (like they did with the skins) and said they did listen to the complains we would see Vayne here defending that. And thats to bad because I don’t mind having a discussion with somebody who truly disagrees about something but it should at leased be driven by some logic and not by blind love.
(or a paycheck)
Its not defending ANet for the sake of defending ANet to point out mistaken assumptions or claims in arguments. If someone were to claim that the majority were happy with the video or with the armor based on such a tiny sample I would still question their claim. Personally I do not like ANet as a company in its current form. You speak of the a discussion based on logic (rather than blind love) and yet seem to be supporting people inventing numbers in order to support their position. Every time someone argues that a, “majority,” support X they are saying that at least 51% do so, and yet cannot support that number, and in fact are making the claim without access to the data needed to support it. Yeah, that is the logical side of the argument ; )
I think you sort of misunderstood me.
Because the first part you reacted…
“A majority or general consensus is not required for something to be a mistake. According to ANet the implementation of the skin was unintended. If everyone had loved it it would still have been a mistake (according to ANet), just a fortuitous one.”
Yeah indeed. Thats exactly what I am saying / suffering to in the comment you commented this on.
Then the second reaction:
“Attempting to please your customers, even if they do not represent a majority or general consensus is a good idea. There will be two sides to any issue however and the difficult part will likely be balancing the desires of one group against the other.”
Yeah indeed once again thats exactly what I am saying / referring to in the comment you commented this on.
And for the last part. No I support people when they say they see a problem. They can see it I might also see it and the fact that you do not have exact numbers does not mean it isn’t there (so I go against the comment that somebody brings up like well but the forum is only a small part so it does not proof it to basically dismiss the whole point). I am not supporting anybody using exact numbers. If somebody says, I see many people say this or that, yeah that possible. But I will not agree if somebody said 51% of all people don’t like x.
The blind love refers to saying well “we can’t proof it here” to pretty much dismiss a point. You can say that about anything and can dismiss anything like that so thats a great thing to bring up out of blind love. Then I prefer having that person bring up actual arguments why it’s not a problem according to him.
Well maybe I do also defend the people who say “the stuff everybody hates” because to me he obviously does not literally mean everybody but means the fact that ‘many’ people complain about something. That is called a hyperbole. Nobody should take that literally but if people are just looking for something to attack such persons statement (like out of blind love) then of course you can come with the statement that not everybody hates something. Like if they are not smart enough to know a hyperbole when they see one.
(edited by Devata.6589)
That just looking at a forum will not give you the factual numbers is correct but that does not mean that there are big group agreeing about a subject. And I am pretty sure the way they do the living story is one of them. Some post it here, some just ignore it, some wait for better times and some just leave the game, but indeed not everybody is active on the forum so it does not show the exact number, that however does not mean that then big groups of agreeing people don’t exist.
No one is claiming that big groups of people don’t exist here. If the claim was that a big group of people do not like “x” the statement would be fine. Claims of majority and/or general consensus, based on tiny samples taken without any controls are what is being disputed.
And there will also be people thats simply don’t like the game anymore. They can’t tell you why but they simply don’t like it and also leave. The reason why they don’t like it exist, even do they don’t know it themselfs.
If you they do not know why they left you and I certainly do not so attempting to in any way portray their departure as support for either side of the discussion is a bad idea.
A general consensus (like if every single person agrees) yeah that does not exist but thats then maybe something Vayne comes with to strengthen his point while it doesn’t because nobody says everybody agrees on one single point.
I am not really certain what this sentence means. It seems to be saying that Vayne was right in claiming that there is no general consensus measurable from a fraction of a tiny fraction of the player base on a medium whose implementation tends to attract negative view points.
Not trying to find out why people left (even if they do not know it them self) would not be smart. You do want to find out what resulted in them leaving so you can improve those points. Just saying.. well they left, don’t know why lets leave it that, would not be smart.
About what Vayne said. There are things being discussed on the forum (but you can also see it ingame and on some other places). then Vayne basically said. Well the forum is just a small part of the players so you can’t make up how many people really don’t like.
So uses that point to basically try and dismiss a (likely) problem.. because well you can’t for sure say it’s a problem can you??
Thats what I was referring to. The fact that you can’t measure it and the fact that not everybody agrees about one subject (and yes thats true) does not mean there is no problem! And if there is a problem (and the forum at least can hinds towards that) it should be addressed.
So bringing that up does not strengthen the point against the problem in any way. You can say that about every problem.. yeah you you never know if a really big group of people agrees.
By your logic, Devata, even Mmo with sub like wow is a P2W game. For example, they offer sometime the best looking mount only available in their cash shop, a cash shop that does not convert gold to… a currency. What is wow endgame all about? To obtain the best possible gearn both in pve and pvp you can get, raid/gladiator tittle, and MOUNTS!
Partly true. The big difference is that for example WoW used to have (don’t know about now) only a very small collection of items in the cash-shop and so for many people that does not even really count. Meanwhile they keep putting many of those items new into the game (game world) itself. Some very good looking.
In many micro-transaction based game you see that the cash-shop plays a much bigger role and they put a lot of those sort of items in the gem-store while adding less into the game itself. Best example might be mini’s. How many mini’s are in WoW available in the cash-shop and how many in the game itself. Now look add GW2.
It’s exactly that mentality why I hate F2P games. Because Anets name with GW1 for mainly generating income with expansions and GW2 asking money for the box (so it looked liked they would go a similar way with GW2) I had hopes for GW2. Sadly they also turned into that micro-transaction based income with all these sort of negative side-effects.
Because in those games the cash-shop does play a much lesser role it’s just counts less for people and there are still many many many more things to get in the game compared to what is available in the cahs-shop. But yeah those available in there usually belong to the best looking ones thats true.
Personally I don’t care because it’s such a small portion and for many it simply does not even really ‘counts’ but if somebody says that that should not be the case (such items in a cash-shop also not a few like in WoW) for similar reasons as here discussed then I would totally understand that.
Currency driven gameplay is indeed part of the problem. Farming a currency and then buying something is simply boring while farming for the item you want is more fun.
No it is not more fun to farm for what I want. I already do that with champs and gold and I can veg and watch TV while I do that. If I have to farm and do a dungeon, I don’t find that fun at all, especially since the PvE in this game sucks.
If we are going to farm for something that is RNG, the person may or may not get what they want in a reasonable amount of time. Doing a quest the first time is fun, maybe a few times after, not after I’ve done it 10 times and all I want is that stupid item that I may get the next run or may take another 100+ runs.
Like I already said. Even if it can only drop from one thing that does not mean it has to be account bound so it means if you really don’t want that and you prefer farming champs while watching TV to get gold then you can still do that and then simply buy it with that gold.
So the people who prefer gold farming to buy there stuff can still get most of the stuff and the people who prefer going for the goal itself can do that. Now everybody is forced to go for the boring brainless gold grind.
Because while you might not like to farm for an item, I do not like to farm for gold but want to farm for the item. That simply makes the content more fun for me and many others.
About the RNG. Lets say the drop change is 10% to get that item then you would need to do a specific dungeon a maximum of 10 times (on paper) to get it. Now (with gold farming) you need to do whatever dungeon 10 times to get the required money to buy that item. So that does not change a single thing. The input required is still the same.
Farming for gold usually is also doing something 100+ times, even worse, people will search for the best way to get the gold and do that single thing 100 times (CoF P1 rings a bell).
So the times you need to do something does not change, the repetitiveness does not changes and if you prefer the gold grind option thats also still an option. The only thing that changes is that those who prefer to go for the item itself have the option to do so and so in effect gold != everything anymore because there are then 2 options.. 1 gold or 2 just go for the item you want.
And again there is the kill argument again. This is a PvE game. The goal is fluff, not killing.
There is more killing in PvE than in PvP. Killing monsters is not your goal in game but that does not necessarily hold true for others.
There is indeed a lot of killing but with maybe the exception of a few bosses no the killing is not the goal, the loot that people can get from the kill is the goal in at least 95% of all kills.
And once again somebody keeps talking about the winning. It’s a PvE game it’s not about winning. And why would you stop playing if somebody else got better gear? You also stop playing if you get killed in a PvP match? You make no sense what so ever.
But then again, maybe it’s just to complicated for you to understand what OP is talking about. Thats oke, I don’t blame you, no hard feelings.
And if you understood the joke you would understand that I don’t care if some is decked out in fluff looking gear. What does that prove? What have they won the I are looking cool? Ever last person has pointed out to you that this is not P2W no matter if it’s on the PVP side of the PVE side.
What has your personal opinion about not caring about fluff to do with anything? Some people don’t care about losing / dying in a fight, does that then also mean P2W does not exist in PvP games? No it doesn’t.
Yeah indeed everybody pointed out that this is not literally P2W, indeed. But then again, thats not what OP is saying. So the problem is that everybody keeps pointing out that it’s not literally P2W. However, just like P2W is bad for a game because of some reasons related to the game-play. What Anet is now doing with the gem-store is also bad for this game related to this game-play. Thats basically what OP is saying. But nobody is really reacting on that.
Like I said, he should rewrite it without using the term P2W. That might help. It would then still say the same but people would non only see the P2W and forget about the rest of the text.
Gold being useable for everything is one of the positive aspects of this game. Its what mostly keeps it from benefiting only gemstore users, because even gemstore items can be bought with gold, and the trading post keeps gold having real value, so it is not simply forgotten like the main currency in some other games. In fact, I would say that Soulbound and Account bound are more of a poison than anything.
Gold being usable for almost anything is 1 thing. Gold being required (in stead of having a real option to farm for the items / material itself) it yet a total other thing.
Currency driven gameplay is indeed part of the problem. Farming a currency and then buying something is simply boring while farming for the item you want is more fun.
Lets take mini’s for example. Who still cares about them? They are just some gem-store items. It would be way more fun if they could drop from specific dungeons and mobs and so on. It would make farming them more fun and would be a better reason to get your stuff. Now you farm gold and buy them. That is boring.
Of course it also has to do with the fact that Anet wants to sell gems and when gold is worth a lot there is more reason for people to buy gems.
some people may say they don’t like that because they prefer farming gold or they don’t like to need to do one specific dungeon to get that one mini for example. However when the drops are non account-bound (and while a few special should be, most should not be) then those people are still able to buy them with gold. The difference is that then people have an option while now everybody is forced to do it the more boring gold grind way.
It’s related to the micro transaction focus to generate income (in stead of expansion based focus). I mentioned that in multiple threads and this is one of those examples a micro-transaction focus results in. It’s just bad for the game.
(edited by Devata.6589)
Typical that they only seem to listen to that thing that directly hits the gem-store.
In the meanwhile many patches are making the game worse in stead of better but thats because those patches are all build around the gem-store sales. The many complains about that seem to be mainly ignored.
So how exactly would you “win” with an unique armor SKIN? o.O
Do you even know what P2W means? Have you ever played a P2W game?
Go try World of Tanks, see if there is a difference between their cash shop and Gw2’s cash shop.
Not to mention you can get everything from Gw2’s store with in-game game.
What…the…hell…people? Don’t you have anything better in your lives than to moan about non-existing problems? Are you that much bored?
So how exactly would you “win” with an unique armor SKIN? o.O
Anet made fluff the goal. The unique armor skin IS the win!
It’s not litteraly pay 2 win is the PvE version of it.
Oow well why do I even bother. It’s explained multiple times but people keep repeating the same every time not even reading or trying to understand what other people say. They see the term P2W and thats it.
I had the same when I created a thread about F2P where I explained that I did not like the micro-transaction based focus in stead of expansion based income. I basically said. F2P games use that mechanic and GW1 used a real B2P where they generated income with the box-sales (including that of expansions).
however nobody even tried to understand it or tried discussing the subject. They just started to react that it’s not literally F2P because you had paid for the initial box. That was not even the subject of the thread.
@ OP. You can better rewrite this and leave the term P2W out because some people are just not smart enough to look at your story behind that and will only comment about the fact that it’s not P2W because gem-store items do not give you a bigger change of killing. That thats not what your saying or that it’s not what the thread is about does not even cross there mind. They see P2W and react purely and only on those 3 letters. P2W.
I am sure my thread will be deleted and mean warned cause its not the kinda topic anet wants discussed on there forums. I do ask everyone act polite and be respectful. I like to have a genuine and honest discussion about the current state of the game and where its headed.
I have noticed over the past few month’s they have been adding more and more cosmetic item’s to the GEM store. Which is fine except they are not balancing these cosmetic updates on the gem store with in game updates of equal quality.
The idea behind GW2 was to have a game with no vertical progression. Instead the entire game would be based around a horizontal progression. Where the only things you would have to grind for where skin’s.
That’s fine I can understand taking the game in that direction. Instead of the main focus being armor which is easy to get it was getting skins. Having a rare, exclusive, good looking armor/weapon skin is the entire focus of the game. That is why people go for legendary.
Lately they have released all new skin sets on the GEM Store for 800 gem’s while releasing very little if any new skins to the player population. They have also released RNG based weapon skins and RNG based dye’s both cosmetic upgrades.
With the game revolving around cosmetics and not armor its self adding these items to the Gem store in such large quantity’s essential makes the game P2W. This is almost the equivalent of a standard MMO adding top tier armor that can only be obtained thought differentiate content to there in game store.
Maybe the focus should be switched on the gem store maybe they should add more stat item’s that are easily obtainable anyway to the gem store. Maybe a generic set of exotics for 800gems. That can be gotten for new alts or toon’s would be far more appropriate then the current trend of cosmetic items in this game.
Imo you dont know what you’re saying… is there anything that can kill a player in pvp in the gemstore? NONE so how is it pay to win?
And again there is the kill argument again. This is a PvE game. The goal is fluff, not killing.
You are missing the point. What he is saying is that in a PvP game winning is the goal, in a PvE game (Like GW2) fluff the goal.
They should simply focus on expansions for income not on the gem-store. See the gem-store as a nice extra but not more. Then all this sort of stuff can get in the game and in the gem-store you just find thinks like a few! special mini’s (not the complete list of mini’s like now because mini’s are also fluff) and the upgrades like extra character slots and bag slots, bank slots, the name changer makes sense in the gem-store and a few of those thinks. But not the fluff. That should mainly be in the game.
You mean there are people that are willing to buy gear that gives them no stats just to look cool. Dear me I guess I should stop playing sense those people won and I did not because I’m not buying said gear.
I should rethink my whole reason for playing now. OH dear oh me oh my what was I thinking? I guess next time I’m in PVP and I see someone in cool fluff gem gear I should take all my gear off and let them win.
And once again somebody keeps talking about the winning. It’s a PvE game it’s not about winning. And why would you stop playing if somebody else got better gear? You also stop playing if you get killed in a PvP match? You make no sense what so ever.
But then again, maybe it’s just to complicated for you to understand what OP is talking about. Thats oke, I don’t blame you, no hard feelings.
This game is not about out-DPSing you. It’s about out-flashing you.
You’ve been flashing other players in GW2?! REPORTED for inappropriate conduct.
In all seriousness though, P2W means spending money gives you a gameplay advantage over other players. Looking cool doesn’t offer you any advantage so it’s not P2W.
If other players looking cooler than you bothers you so much than you need to rethink your priorities. Or maybe you’re just a butt-sore individual who flashes PUGS.
PUG FLASHER!!!
Like I also said before. For me it’s more what it does to the game the having the better looking armor or anything. So no thats not what it is about for me.
What I did here was explain that while INDEED this in not litteraly P2W the reasons for not liking P2W (getting the goal (winning) by buying) is the same as the goal here seems having the best looks and people can buy that. So in a way this mechanism is just as bad for a PvE game as P2W is for a PvP game.
I did explain that because people (like now you) keep saying.. no it’s not P2W.. No it isen’t but thats not what OP is really saying, he says it has a simular effect.
Then again, most people don’t even read the OP, and for sure the the comments, they just see the title and make a useless post that looks are not P2W.
So no it’s not the same but you can say the problem is.
However again! Personally I don’t like what they are doing because I think it results in a lesser game (see one of my previous post) not for the simple fact that somebody who uses gems can better reach the goal (better fluff) in this game.
Well, I wouldn’t join the game for a reason like this, but it’s still pretty funny. I’m not sure why it is being overanalyzed so much, it’s just a harmless PR trick that doesn’t affect players already playing.
It doesn’t? It’s shows them as a bunch of crazy people. Like, you see this is the sort of people playing our game, come and join us.
I disagree with Vayne alot, but I have to agree with him here. Its hard to buy that you can come to a general, or majority, consensus based on the opinions of a very tiny fraction of the whole, particularly when using a medium (game forums) which tend to be biased to the negative as people happy with the game are like as not playing rather than dwelling on the forum.
It would be like going to a PETA rally to determine the general consensus on whether or not salads are better than burgers.
Check this thread: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Will-it-happen-again/page/2#post3281636
Aperantly Anet can make a mistake according to Vayne but then why is it a mistake? Because there exist a general, or majority, consensus? But that does not exist according to Vayne. But that does not exist according to him. Or at least it can not be determent.
However now Anet in this case seem to have listened to the people of course it is a good thing that Anet does. While here the plee seemed to be Anet should not listen because there does not exist something like a general, or majority, consensus?
It really comes down to defending Anet for the sake of defending it. However that might be because of some blind love. Not judging about that, however it shows that it’s not just based on some logic. If Anet did exactly the opposite (like they did with the skins) and said they did listen to the complains we would see Vayne here defending that. And thats to bad because I don’t mind having a discussion with somebody who truly disagrees about something but it should at leased be driven by some logic and not by blind love.
(or a paycheck)
you didn’t pay $10 for the amour skin, you paid $10 for the gems. you paid the gems for the amour skin.
The skin is changed,u get ur refund of gems which is the payment for the skin.
If you want refund of $10 for the gems,then you need to understand that once gems is bought,it cannot be sold back to the company for $.
An adult customer,like yourself, should understand this concept.
Well guess what? As an adult customer, i won’t buy gems anymore. And we’re not talking about only one account here, but three (my wife and daughter also play).
Back when i played another mmo, if I liked an item promoted in their online store, everything was simple : “Item A is 15,00$ USD, do you want it?”. It’s a direct sale, so if something like this happens, you get your refund. Simple as that.
I dunno how you can say you did it to “support them” and say you can’t trust them anymore. If it was to support them, you’d think you’d support their decision, ie that they made a mistake and are attempting to rectify it. Just seems contradictory.
Like i said, i spent hundreds of dollars on this game since pre-launch. I’ve seen numerous mistakes followed by excuses, closed my eyes on so many bugs (and i’ve worked as a videogame tester for 3 years, can’t believe what they let through sometimes). I’ve supported them with all my heart, but this issue feels like cheap and false advertisement.
When i got promoted to manager, the first thing they told me was to be open to my staff’s concern, but in the end, i’ll be the one taking the decisions. If you start listening to everyone’s concern, you’ll eventually lose control (because it’s impossible to please everyone) and in the long run, it’s your whole team’s integrity that will be affected.
I know people like the fact that “Anet listened to their playerbase”, but they can’t do that every time a group is mad at something. How many people didn’t like the fact that T3 reskin was sold in the gemshop VS how many people who actually bought the skin.
That is my concern and that’s why i made my first post on this forum.
You’d have a point if Anet wasn’t wrong to have done it in the first place.
Listening to their player base is completely wrong when they’ve done it right. But correcting and error was the right thing to do.
If you wish to stop supporting the company because they did the right thing…and it was the right thing…then so be it.
But the three people they lose would have probably been a lot more if they hadn’t done it.
Lol genius, I was just reading in this forum: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/The-Great-MMO-Migration/page/5#post3281595 where you where talking about how they do not exist a consensus of people or a majority of people agreeing. Yet here you are defending Anet changing this because they made a mistake. And why is it a mistake? Maybe because a big group of people thinks it is a mistake. But thats not possible if I read your other thread.
No offense but in your quest to defend Anet all the time you end up contradicting yourself.
Or is it this time indeed a mistake not because the (according to you non existing) consensus of people or a majority of people agreeing t is but because you agree this is a mistake?
I am really trying to follow you but with you contradicting yourself multiple times I really have to conclude every time again that it’s just the sake of defending Anet that drives you.
I disagree with Vayne alot, but I have to agree with him here. Its hard to buy that you can come to a general, or majority, consensus based on the opinions of a very tiny fraction of the whole, particularly when using a medium (game forums) which tend to be biased to the negative as people happy with the game are like as not playing rather than dwelling on the forum.
It would be like going to a PETA rally to determine the general consensus on whether or not salads are better than burgers.
That just looking at a forum will not give you the factual numbers is correct but that does not mean that there are big group agreeing about a subject. And I am pretty sure the way they do the living story is one of them. Some post it here, some just ignore it, some wait for better times and some just leave the game, but indeed not everybody is active on the forum so it does not show the exact number, that however does not mean that then big groups of agreeing people don’t exist.
And there will also be people thats simply don’t like the game anymore. They can’t tell you why but they simply don’t like it and also leave. The reason why they don’t like it exist, even do they don’t know it themselfs.
A general consensus (like if every single person agrees) yeah that does not exist but thats then maybe something Vayne comes with to strengthen his point while it doesn’t because nobody says everybody agrees on one single point.
The do not touch is a text message on your screen but not a sign or a text spoken in the game. So it exist out of the lore (it’s a message for the player, not for the character). It would make sense for a Aprils fool joke (like they changed the intro sound) or any other joke from the developers but it does not really fit into the game. So not sure what to think about it.
The objects name is “DO NOT TOUCH”. You see it by simply targeting it like you would for any intractable object or npc.
Indeed. So it exist outside of the game (don’t know a better way to describe it). The name above a character / npc is also not there in the game it’s information for the player. I mean, if you would be the character you would not see it.
lets start with stopping the cash-shop focus and going for a expansion focus. Putting all the fluff in the game where it belongs.
Also lets change the quick but dirty into slow but good so not easy solutions as invisible walls and instanced maps, or putting mechanics in the core so it’s hard to change / fix.
Then stop the “needs to be different for the sake of it being different” into lets just try to be good, come with new unique good idea’s and improve (if needed) those that exist.
When those 3 core problems are being addressed then they can start working on new good patches content, expansions and marketing to get more people into the game / world.
Hello,
First post here, played since pre-launch and spent a fair amount of money in this game (a few hundreds, actually). Anyway, i’m one of the evil players that bought the Flamekissed armor skin. I did it with 800 gems that i bought for 10,00$.
Now it will be removed from the game (or replaced by something i didn’t pay for). If i read correctly, i’ll be able to get a full refund by contacting support. We’re not talking about the 800 gems, but the 10,00$, right? Because i honnestly don’t care about those gems… but i did care about that skin.
My main concern is : will it happen again? It’s actually the first time in my life that i buy something and it’s “replaced” without my concent after my money was taken away from my wallet. As an adult customer, i’m a bit in shock right now. How can i sincerely put any more money in your gemshop, knowing that my purchase might be temporary or that it might change eventually because someone else isn’t happy with it?
What am i supposed to think about all this?
You putting money in the gem-store changed the game for many people. We would have not gotten this cash-shop driven (thats bad imho) game if it wasen’t for people putting a lot of money in it.
I geus people do thinks and it always effects other people. Not only for the good.
The do not touch is a text message on your screen but not a sign or a text spoken in the game. So it exist out of the lore (it’s a message for the player, not for the character). It would make sense for a Aprils fool joke (like they changed the intro sound) or any other joke from the developers but it does not really fit into the game. So not sure what to think about it.
Oh man, I was just thinking the same thing, noticing that the guy in the flashy gem store skin was out-DPSing me when we were wailing on Frost a couple of days ago in CM.
Okay, I couldn’t type that with a straight face.
This game is not about out-DPSing you. It’s about out-flashing you.
Hey could have been much much worse we could have gotten the Fall of Abaddon. I could see this now… Scarlet steal’s a TARDIS goes back and time and twist and warps Abaddon to be one of her minons.
Nah, this wouldn’t of happened. This is why Evon should of won. lolwpcost.
Like anybody voted for the waypoint cost. Thats something Woodenpatatoes also keeps saying. Many voted because of the story, many because the did not like the char and many because they did not like gem-store (especially rng). But there will have not been many people voting because of the way-points.
While it’s indeed interesting to note that the cash stop has become the primary source for obtaining skins in a game that has been advertised as being all about collecting skins, that hardly makes it Pay to Win.
But yes, I am actually wondering what we’re still playing the actual game for, if everything desirable can be obtained in the cash shop and nowhere else. Except backpieces and helmets (which I am utterly not interested in, as none of my characters ever display helmets, shoulders, and backpacks), not many skins drop in the actual in-game content. At least both my main characters wear cash shop armour as this is the only gear in the game I find not to look horrible…this nails my point completely P2Win traditionally meant boosters or gear that gave you the ability to beat end game content. Anet has no end game content in the traditional since the end game content is the skins you get.
P2W means winning. Pay to WIN. What the hell are you winning with skins? I don’t see anyone kicking kitten in wvw or speed running dungeons because of their mlg rox bow. Endgame is NOT skins. Endgame is enjoying the game after you did everything you wanna do. If skins is how you like to stroke your kitten then fine, but p2w is having a bigger advantage than others, usually in the form of stats.
If you put it like that. P2W in a PvP game means winning the kill. P2W in a PvE game means winning the skin.
But I think my previous post explains it better because what he is saying is not that it’s exacly the same but thats it’s wrong because of simular reasons.
So it’s P2W because if I don’t buy skins I will be kicked from a dungeon or something? Kitts why did someone not tell me this sooner I’m out of here.
Wait for it
looking pretty does not = P2W
You are missing the point. What he is saying is that in a PvP game winning is the goal, in a PvE game (Like GW2) fluff the goal.
P2W in a PvP game is bad because you get the goal with money. However in GW2 the best fluff is the goal and paying with money will get you a big way getting the ‘best’ fluff and so the goal of the game.
Meaning what P2W is in a PvP game, P4fluff is in GW2. And he is correct in that however I personally base it more on the way how the gem-store focus is bad for the game.
Haircuts ingame at a barber would be a better game but thats fluff (hair styles) in the game and anet sells them in the gem-store (P4fluff) making the quality of the game not as good as a game where it would have been in the game itself.
They should simply focus on expansions for income not on the gem-store. See the gem-store as a nice extra but not more. Then all this sort of stuff can get in the game and in the gem-store you just find thinks like a few! special mini’s (not the complete list of mini’s like now because mini’s are also fluff) and the upgrades like extra character slots and bag slots, bank slots, the name changer makes sense in the gem-store and a few of those thinks. But not the fluff. That should mainly be in the game.
…I have noticed over the past few month’s they have been adding more and more cosmetic item’s to the GEM store. Which is fine except they are not balancing these cosmetic updates on the gem store with in game updates of equal quality….
Game. Set. Match.
I agree with the rest of your points as well. Except the Pay2Win part. Technically speaking you are not getting “stat” gains directly from the gem store. As you said, progression is cosmetic here – ANet was very clever with how they worded their criteria for acceptable items in cash shop, well played ANet, well played.
ANet was very clever with how they worded their criteria for acceptable items in cash shop, well played ANet, well played.
How is that then well played? The criteria Anet sets are not law nor do I have to agree with them.
So in other words, good by GW2 come Q1 2014. Oh well, had a good run and some potential.
Guess you haven’t played any of the other betas. The grass isn’t always greener. You think this forum is dark, you should see the stuff being said about ESO.
I find it rather interesting that you say that. I’ve been in several of their betas, including the most recent one and it appears to me that the vast majority are saying good things about it. That is including in game and forums. It definitely isn’t my cup of tea, but can see why people like it.
I’d look at the reddit thread. It’s literally being torn apart. And I’m not the only one saying this. But believe what you like.
Just remember, people said the same stuff about GW 2 before release and a year later look what they’re saying. People said the same thing about SWToR and look what they’re saying.
We’ll see what we’ll see, but most of the games when they finally come out will have to compete with a two year old MMO and most of them will be buggy, not have enough content and will be desperate for market share, which will make for some interesting errors along the way as well.
I don’t get your point. ESO is indeed also getting a lot of negative feedback. The other new MMO’s not so much but maybe that means ESO is also doing some things not good and they should listen to the negative feedback.
I did play some alpha and I was fun but a very traditional mmo + sub-fee. That plus the fact that people know it will not have the singplayer feeling is the reason for many of the complains. I think if they would go for a B2P model (not the micro-transaction model GW2 is now using but the B2P model as we did see in GW1) many of the complains will stop.
Most likely we will now see ESO being released and then soon having to go F2P. So yes there are also other games that are getting complains but that does not mean the complains are not fair. GW2 has proven those complains should be listened to. Many people have been saying the living story (they way Anet did it) would only scare people away. Anet did not listen and now it looks like many people are leaving. If Anet only had listened.
I love how people think if devs would only listen to people the game would be better. I hate to break it to you, mate, but the devs have listened to people. They didn’t listen to the people you agree with. For every person who says they should have duels in the game, for example, another says they shouldn’t. For every person who says that there should be harder more challenging content, someone says the game is too hard. For every person who says they hate zerging, someone says to leave zerging alone.
This illusionary consensus people keep talking about is just that….illusionary. It doesn’t exist.
Everyone likes to think their point of view is the majority point of view. We can’t all be right.
Oow big groups of consensus people about certain subjects (like living story, grinding and so on) exist for sure, there are however a few people (Anet seems to be part of that group) that do see many complains about certain subjects and then make it go away from them-self by saying exactly what you now say or by talking about a loud minority.
But then again the truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is.
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If you want to see a really healthy forum, check Wildstar, i havent see a single bad comment for that game, and im pretty sure there are some out there but the fact that i havent see any it means that they are not many!
That is about as unhealthy as can be. There is not much worse for growth than a lack of negative commentary. Surround yourself with yes-men and suffer the consequences.
Or only listen to the yes-men and suffer the consequences.
So in other words, good by GW2 come Q1 2014. Oh well, had a good run and some potential.
Guess you haven’t played any of the other betas. The grass isn’t always greener. You think this forum is dark, you should see the stuff being said about ESO.
I find it rather interesting that you say that. I’ve been in several of their betas, including the most recent one and it appears to me that the vast majority are saying good things about it. That is including in game and forums. It definitely isn’t my cup of tea, but can see why people like it.
I’d look at the reddit thread. It’s literally being torn apart. And I’m not the only one saying this. But believe what you like. .
The ESO reddit page appears to be greatly positive. I don’t even see a single negative post on the entire first page. People are talking about withdrawals and fiending for more. Completely off topic, I just wanted to point out that I don’t agree with the " You think this forum is dark, you should see the stuff being said about ESO."
If you want to see a really healthy forum, check Wildstar, i havent see a single bad comment for that game, and im pretty sure there are some out there but the fact that i havent see any it means that they are not many!
GW2 also did not have many negative feedback before release. I don’t see Wildstar becoming this big thing, it’s just a hyped game like LoTR and Star Trek was. But the question is, do they act on complains. Anet diden’t. when they got complains about the living story patches they said the patched would become bigger in a fact making it worse. The grind issue (that is largely linked to those patches) is not being adressed and in this video they even use it as a positive. If you are really blind for that negative feedback then thats very bad for the game.
So in other words, good by GW2 come Q1 2014. Oh well, had a good run and some potential.
Guess you haven’t played any of the other betas. The grass isn’t always greener. You think this forum is dark, you should see the stuff being said about ESO.
I find it rather interesting that you say that. I’ve been in several of their betas, including the most recent one and it appears to me that the vast majority are saying good things about it. That is including in game and forums. It definitely isn’t my cup of tea, but can see why people like it.
I’d look at the reddit thread. It’s literally being torn apart. And I’m not the only one saying this. But believe what you like.
Just remember, people said the same stuff about GW 2 before release and a year later look what they’re saying. People said the same thing about SWToR and look what they’re saying.
We’ll see what we’ll see, but most of the games when they finally come out will have to compete with a two year old MMO and most of them will be buggy, not have enough content and will be desperate for market share, which will make for some interesting errors along the way as well.
I don’t get your point. ESO is indeed also getting a lot of negative feedback. The other new MMO’s not so much but maybe that means ESO is also doing some things not good and they should listen to the negative feedback.
I did play some alpha and I was fun but a very traditional mmo + sub-fee. That plus the fact that people know it will not have the singplayer feeling is the reason for many of the complains. I think if they would go for a B2P model (not the micro-transaction model GW2 is now using but the B2P model as we did see in GW1) many of the complains will stop.
Most likely we will now see ESO being released and then soon having to go F2P. So yes there are also other games that are getting complains but that does not mean the complains are not fair. GW2 has proven those complains should be listened to. Many people have been saying the living story (they way Anet did it) would only scare people away. Anet did not listen and now it looks like many people are leaving. If Anet only had listened.
There have been some P2W items in the gem-store like the politic vote doubler, SAB infinitive coint and the Instant Trait Reset however thats by itself not the point.
People seem not to realize that what winning is in PvP, fluff mainly is in PvE and there is a lot of fluff.
The bigger problem however is that the gem-store focus is bad for the game. Many bugs have been in since the beta and many important required addition of missing features (like guild management tools) have not been added simply because in the short run they do not seem to benefit gem sales. Any patch, content and addition you get is based on “how we get people to buy gems” not “how to get a better game”.
The temporary content meaning temporary items in the gem-store is an example and there are many people who do not like that (so it’s bad for the game). If you would make a game better you add a barber in the world and let people cut there hair for 15 silver (that’s really something that improves the game) but if you want to sell gems you make a gem-store item you can buy to change your hair. There are many examples like that.
Anet should have done what they did with GW1. Focus on regular expansions as there main resource for income. Selling some extra bank slots and character slots (while keeping a normal gold > gem rate) in the gem-store to generate some extra income is no problem but the moment the gem-store becomes the focus the games gets to suffer. It’s exactly that reason why I don’t like F2P games, and looking at what Anet does now everything looks more and more like a F2P game where the company behind the game tries to make money with micro transaction. Why then charge money for the game in the first place?
I totally understand they need to make money but they should have done it with expansions. GW2 did not become much better during it’s lifetime (yes there where additions that improved the game, but they don’t out-way the patches that made the game worse. The opposite) in fact it’s a game where the patches resulted in making a game worse.
In many threads Anet has been warned about this trend with the patches making the game worse in stead of better but Anet simply did not listen and it even seems like they still don’t get it. See this video http://migration.guildwars2.com/en/ not talking about the video itself but what they are saying. No grinding and every 2 weeks updates. It’s the grind and the living story where many many many people are complaining about. Using this in an way to get people proofs they simply don’t get it.
Recently I noticed that even many of the core players (those that have never a critical word about the game and have been playing contently since release) have been logging in less and less. Most will come back but getting away and staying away from a game begins with the first ‘break’ from it.
We are at a point where I am not even sure if an expansion would still work. We might have passed that point, but maybe if they come with a really really big expansion that does not only add a new area a new race and the other normal stuff you expect in an expansion but also makes many other big changes to the core (think about making it really one big world in stead of instances, adding mounts, making chairs sit table, adding raids, promising to fix many of the issues like mobs that run back, putting a barber in the world (and the other gem-related stuff thay should be in game) and fixing guild tools (like I mentioned before) and promising to start focusing on expansions again. Maybe that then they have a change that an expansion will be able to turn the tight but honestly I don’t see them doing it, eventually Ncsoft will lose interest (so there will not even be the money for an expansion) and the game will keep degrading.
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Does the firestorm mini and backpack drop again in the fractal with the firestorm boss?
I farmed the hell out of that dungeon during MF but the extremely bad temporary nature of the content meant I did not get them to drop anyway so I hope the it will drop here again. Maybe at a high level to keep it pretty unique but it should drop.
That sort of rewards are also what make dungeons fun. More fun then a list of boring achievements. Is there any information about this as far as anybody knows? I know there where some ‘special’ drops at a high level like a tonic. Are the mini and the backpack maybe part of that.
Normally you would say, of course it drops, it belongs to that boos and the boss is back however lately Anet makes a lot of mistakes and ‘fun rewards’ come in the form of boring achievements thats why I ask this question on the forum.
If the answer would be no (What I would not be surprised with at all) then this topic is more about the fact that it should be in here and the rewards in general need to get better then the boring achievement grind that are destroying this game.
If they were doing well, they would keep the game at 60 dollars and keep advertising. But nope, they drop it to 40% off and advertise to bring in more players so they will have more money.
If they have come to realize that on average the cash shop generates more income than box sales on a per account basis it would be foolish of them to NOT run a sale to draw in more people to be exposed to the cash shop.
Sometimes a price reduction can lead to increased revenue/profit.
Even if thats the case it’s to bad that this gem-store focus is destroying the game in many ways. A focus on expansions would resolve in a much better game.
That was painful and cringe worthy. Things like this make me embarrassed. Can you guys do something cool instead that make me proud to play GW2 and something that I can share with friends that don’t play GW2? I want to tell my friends hey check this thing out it is so cool. Instead of things like this that are so cringe inducing?
And do you realize this isn’t 2005 anymore? You realize most MMOs are F2P? Why are you talking about subscriptions? Most MMOs are F2P with less barrier to entry than GW2.
I think they are talking about subs because two big names coming next year (maybe) will be sub based. They want to differentiate themselves from the competition.
It’s not really sure if you can name Wildstar a sub-based game. You get game-time for buying gems so at least it’s F2P with the requirement to buy gems but you can also earn game-time ingame. The big question then is how easy or hard it is to earn it. Maybe it’s very easy to earn and you just have a little less resources ingame because you spend some on game-time but in that case you can’t really consider it sub-based. Maybe it is hard to earn it ingame and then like I said it’s at least F2P with the requirement to pay.
I am not interested in Wildstar but when I read up about the payment system I noticed that you can not easily cal it a sub-based game.
That was painful and cringe worthy. Things like this make me embarrassed. Can you guys do something cool instead that make me proud to play GW2 and something that I can share with friends that don’t play GW2? I want to tell my friends hey check this thing out it is so cool. Instead of things like this that are so cringe inducing?
And do you realize this isn’t 2005 anymore, right? You realize most MMOs are F2P? Why are you talking about subscriptions? Most MMOs are F2P with less barrier to entry than GW2.
Yeah like the last trailer for the current patch. That was awesome and something you can show other people. This is really embarrassed as a GW2 player imho.
It was kinda funny. There is new stuff every two weeks (thats what everybody is complaining about, but oke). You never feel like grinding? Wasn’t that the other thing so many people complain about.. that it’s grind grind grind?
Besides I think that video is really rude towards GW2 players. Like if they are all some sort of crazies.
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Can I roll a guardian and have a “REAL” healer. By that I mean someone who can heal the group on his own accord. I don’t care what I have to do to heal, but can I heal nonetheless?
yep, guardian heals can be beastly. i run a cleric guard in dungeons and WvW to keep people up, and more importantly give them very long boons and reflects. most people dont know how to play a support guardian, but with 1500+ healing power, you can easily heal your group to full in seconds.
I’m going to try that. I had a guard before but I paid to get her to 80, and just screwed around on her a bit before deleting her. Kinda regretting it now (Unlike WoW I can’t get a deleted toon back, I’ assuming).
Those heals you speak of, being able to “easily heal your group to full in seconds.” Is that sustained? Or can you only do it like once every 30 seconds or so?
The thing is, there’s really no need to heal a group like that. Of the group needs that kind of healing, that group is playing terribly. The only place where that’s needed is in WvW.
The game us designed around each person being mostly self-sufficient.
Weren’t you disagreeing with me on that before? Maybe I mix up people but you are right. There is no need for that because the game us designed around each person being mostly self-sufficient.
So no roles (each person being mostly self-sufficient) means no real responsibility, means less team work what makes the game / combat more boring for many people. Also if you do a ‘organized’ run.
Does this thread mean all very useful comments in the many many other threads that are about this subject are going to get ignored. Because there are some very useful ones and not everybody is going to put there input on this thread again.
That said. The living story makes the game feel like a job. Temporary stuff.. yes even if you leave in some of the content, the achievements and rewards are still temporary.
If you want a living world make little changes like you guys did before when building up the tower the Karka destroyed and so on. Have a story unfolding itself without achievements or rewards and then end that story with a big new chuck on content. That content can then have achievements and rewards linked to it and that can stay forever.
The excuse that it has to be temporary to be a living world / story is total nonsense. You should see it as when they guild a new cinema in your neighborhood. The building process is the story, the cinema is story towards it and the having the cinema is the content that stays behind. And geuss where the reward is, when the content / cinema is there. That the cinema maybe go’s away 25 years later would be one of the negative side-effects of life. Luckily in a game you don’t need to have those side effects so when then focusing on those negatives and creating exactly that into a game.
Part of the reason is of course the gem-store focus. Anet switch from a company that generates it’s main income from expansion to one of the many micro-transaction based games generating most income from that. That mean you need to get people to log in and buy items. Make it temporary so they can’t earn the gold and to create a sense of urgency. Do that every two weeks and on paper you should be guaranteed to a steady flow of income.
That in fact people will get burned out and so in practice it does not work like this is pointed out by many many many people on these forums months ago. Of course the numbers are now also showing that. That could have been prevented if Anet would have listened to there player-base months and months ago.
Just have a good living story that is no grind, no temporary content, achivements. Rewards and base your income mainly on expansions so you are also not forces to make those decision based on creating gem sales in stead on based of having a good game / selling expansions. Because in the end decision based on having a good game or selling expanions is better for the game then decisions based on making gem-sales and because it’s better for the game it is also better for Anet or Ncsoft’s wallet in the longer run while focusing on gem-sales destroys the game and so only works on th short run. Once again, just like many people said many months ago and I am sure Anet and Ncsoft will be seeing in the numbers now.
I would like to end with an addition to the start of my post. I referred there to the many other threads about this topic and if they would be getting any attention. However while this Collaborative Development Topic might seem great at the same time you need to to back 7 pages on the general discussion forum to see a real contribution from Anet personal. Not including admin. So if this thread means any other thread now really are forgotten I am not so sure this is a good thing and posting something on the forum seems to become less and less useful and that while many of the problems now could have been solved if topics would have been taken more serious.
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I don’t understand this mentality that you need the trinity to put roles into a game. In fact, when you break roles down like that game can get very, very, boring. In most games all the DD does is sit in a corner churning through rotations.
An example of having roles in a game without the trinity can be found in something like Vindictus (not saying its a good game, it’s actually a terrible game) where it’s by design that every class is just DPS. You had a dragon fight where you had to have people on ballistas shooting the dragon down, people building shelters so the raid doesn’t get wiped by the huge AoEs it launches, and people running and filling pools with fairy water to cleanse a DoT debuff the boss places on people.
That didn’t work as intended (mainly due to the ‘raid’ being too easy) and the roles being too simple but there’s a lot which could be built upon there.
And to be honest, I would have anything to replace the trinity. Anything at all, even no roles. Waiting for hours as a DD was the most frustrating thing I’ve experienced in MMOs, and since healers are not fun to play in solo content, you can’t blame me for not playing one.
The trinity adds roles but also adds over-dependence on others to actually play the game. Not everything is structured group content in MMOs, so of you got a role who’s primary role is to support a a group and there’s no one to support, well, gg you.
I never said ‘the trinity’. I said you need predefined roles (The trinity has 3 roles but you could also work with 4 or 5 or 6 roles). Thats what makes you special from another character in a group, why your input becomes really interesting because other people in the group can not do that thing you do but is required to finish the dungeon / events / raid whatever. That why you feel part of it, you do something wrong? Then it fails. Now if you do something wrong somebody else can do it for you so in the end you only added a little extra DPS to the fight, nothing really important.
It’s funny that you say “In fact, when you break roles down like that game can get very, very, boring.” because if you look at many of the complains about combat in GW2 is that it is very, very, very boring. Or like they usually say, you just spam a few buttons.
Your example of Vindictus Is a very bad way to achieve those roles if that would be the main way of doing it (as part of it, it could be fine but if thats the sort of way you go about creating roles as a general it’s really bad). It’s a way to indeed create artificial roles but in your example it’s the number of people that count and not the skills from the specific class of the people. You could do that a little better by for example making a room with more levers then max people to be allowed into the dungeon (5 in case of GW2) where they need to stand on to open a door. In that case you need a class then can take companions and place them somewhere. Think about rangers (forgetting the fact that they do not have the control over their pet to do this).
That sort of thinks would work a little but only as part of it. If you would work with requiring more numbers then you should put that into the AI from bosses and then build some classes around that idea. This is then just an example but what I am trying to say is that your class needs something specific (a role) and the class should be build around that role, you don’t (or only limited) build a mechanic around a dungeon to create the roles for the people that go in.
The requirement of having those roles indeed might mean that you can get waiting lines if there are classes (roles) that are not as popular as other classes. However it’s this same dependency that makes it fun. The way to partly fix this is by trying to make all classes fun, with healers what you see some MMO’s do is that they give a class 2 possible roles, fighting and healing. Fighting is usually fun during leveling so then people can get level up and when they reach cap they switch to the healing role.
My main is usually ranger also in other MMO’s but I have also played tank and it’s just a lot of fun really being busy tactical, trying to get the aggro, taking aggro from other players especially from the healer. You know if you fail because you neglect getting aggro from the healer you all will whipe. You are important. While without roles like in GW2 it’s mainly keeping an eye for yourself, staying alive and doing DPS. Only real defined role everybody has that it not around himself is getting members up if they are down.
Right, as compared to most other MMOs, like say WoW, where all human warriors have the exact same stories, or better, no story at all. That’s true of probably 99% of MMOs. Characters have no personal story. This is a step forward from that.
The complaints about Trahearne running the show really blow my mind a bit. I mean people say this game didn’t keep anything from Guild Wars 1, but that was the modus operandi for pretty much ALL of Guild Wars 1. You were never doing your own thing, but someone else’s thing, even if you were the chosen. The most obvious example of this is Komir, who is the head of the Sunspears and becomes a goddess at the end. You do all the work, she gets all the credit.
It’s less like that with Trahearne, who has the wilde hunt to heal Orr. If you play a Sylvari your wylde hunt is to kill Zhaitan. Different wylde hunts. Even if you don’t play a Sylvari, Trahearne gives you plenty of credit, if you listen to what he’s saying. I think people are just used to Skyrim where you can be the head of everything all at the same time…which always rubbed me the wrong way. If I’d been able to walk up to Zhaitan and beat him with a mace and kill him, that would have likely rubbed me the wrong way too.
But yeah, the person story, as with any portion of a game, has budgetary constraints. SWTOR was the most expensive MMO ever made, and they put most of their money into cinematics and voice acting, and we all know where that went.
In a company that’s smaller with a lower budget, you can’t expect individual endings for each player and I’m not sure why anyone did. Anyone following the game would have known all roads lead to Zhaitan and that it’s in a dungeon. At least I knew that well before launch.
I don’t care about the personal story because if I play an MMO I live my personal story while playing it.
Not by doing some single player (co-op) story that gives me a few options. I have a personal story in the other MMO’s that I played. But “The personal story” in GW2 is not my personal story.. also not for GW2. It’s nothing more then some simple player element that I don’t care about.
So there is no reason for that and if they want to give it some personal touch then give (like somebody else posted) some housing, preferable open world where I can really build my own thing. But also guild housing and raiding would be nice to work towards something together with the guild because in the end it is an MMO. But a single player element in an MMO? no Thnx.
You take as example WoW. I don’t even know the story behind the game, thereis no single player personal story but I have memories playing it, leveling my char and so on (And the memories are differend for everybody so yes a differend ending for everybody). Those together form my personal story. Part of that is helping NPC’s in traditional quest, and that part misses GW2. Dynamic events are great but they by themselves are not a substitute for the tradition quest. They would be a great addition. But then again, GW2 needed to have every thing different for the sake of having it different and many MMO’s have quest so GW2 as no traditional quest. However it takes away from you true personal story.
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In speed clear groups there is plenty of team work. I grant that in a group where everyone is freewheeling, there is little to no team work. However, that is not the game’s fault.
Yeah I do many coordinated dungeon runs but thats not the same then when you all really have a role based on your class that is needed in teamwork to get the job done.
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That’s not making a game social. What you just described is actually what makes MMOs ironically such an anti-social genre.
Players just find an exclusive group which they do content with, then that’s it. You don’t meet new people, you don’t want to meet new people because it takes too long to teach them the content and their class may not fit in your group.
That’s what makes newbies feel like they’re that kid who gets picked last in football or the new guy who has no friends.
Why would you need to be only in 1 guild? There’s guild alliances in other MMOs which are basically the same as joining different guilds.
Some of the best convos I’ve had with people in this game are in PUGs. We once did a fractal run which lasted 4 HOURS. Seriously, 4 hours. The group was that bad, but it was 4 hours of my life which I’d gladly waste again because it was great, we joked about it, we laughed and we RPed all the way through.
The only reason which people don’t get to know each other is because they don’t want to.
What I just described is why other games are far more social than GW2. Yes, the average GW2 player is more polite than other MMOs, but that doesn’t make them more social. The fact of the matter is, content in this game requires very little social interaction overall. There is little/no division of labor, which forces social interaction (whether it be good, bad, polite, impolite, etc…)
Since we’re using anecdotes, I’ve had the exact opposite experience as you (on Tarnished Coast no less!) in regards to dungeons. It just turned into a quick explanation of a fight if nobody knew, then move on. No interaction, no real strategy…just an explanation that was essentially copy/pasted off a wiki article.
Now lets look at other games, ones which force social interaction via a division of labor. Sandbox games like Star Wars Galaxies (pre-NGE) were extraordinarily social because the entire game required other players to accomplish relatively simple tasks. My friend’s list in that game was 50+ players, all of whom I had tagged for specific reasons (armorsmith, weaponsmith, image designer, good pilots, etc…). More mainstream games like WoW are also far more social than GW2 because, they too, require the division of labor (limited crafting and gathering specializations, the trinity, etc…).
Creating an environment which promotes individuals to stand out is what social interaction is all about! Just because you had a pretty fun experience once doesn’t negate the fact that the game generally promotes an anti-social atmosphere which feels like a bunch of people playing a single-player game at the same time.
What you are saying here I did here many people say who left the game. It basically has to do with the removal of the holy trinity. In the end your main task is looking for yourself.
Now removing the holy trinity by itself is not bad and giving everybody some heal and ress skill is also not bad. The problem is that they did not replace it with more roles then tank, dps, healer. They just took that out and then that it.
When I read they took out the holy trinity it sounded good. Finally everybody really has it’s own role (I though) but it turned out to be, nobody has a role. Because of that there is no real teamwork. In the end you mainly watch yourself and if somebody go’s down you res him. Thats as far as it goes.
When there are real roles (like in the holy trinity) you need to work together everybody making using of his required! role to win the fight / reach the goal. And thats a big difference.
The problem has to do with the mentality of doing thinks different for the sake of doing it different. Many of the problems with Guild Wars 2 can be traced to a few main sources.
1. Focus on the gem-store
2. Do thinks different for the sake of doing it different.
3. Quick but dirty developer mentality (invisible walls, and instanced maps show this a little bit but you can also see it on other places. That quick but dirty mentality bites you back later. Trying to fix one thing will then cause 10 new problems)
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I think there first expansion (whether they release it as a real expansion or not) will be factions. Thats because the living story seems to be going towards that. Scarlet has set up multiple alliances and there was always one or more playable races involved in that. By not all races have been involved.
In addition to that the Tengu Yuki Honestcrest says:
This is our dwelling, the Dominion of Winds. We keep watch from this perch as power shifts and the world is transformed. We must soon determine with whom we will fight and with whom we will ally.
What also seems to point to factions. We do not know Scarlets goal or vision but why would that not be something you as player could be in favor of? If so then you basically have your factions.
The question then is how they will implement it.