This is an appreciation thread for getting the kites. Please try not to contaminate it with lack of appreciation banter. There are already other threads for the “but it’s not fair because I didn’t get one” crowd.
Luckily it’s not about “but it’s not fair because I didn’t get one”. I do agree with that point but it’s not the point I was making.
PS this was the correct threat as is was directed to the gem-buyers and they will be here, not in those other threads.
But thats all I had to say so go on thanking Anet for how awesome there are turning it into a F2P game.
I am pretty sure they will never make GW2 f2p, they didn’t do that with GW1 so why should they do it with GW2?
It’s not about the question if you need to pay for the game once. It’s how they support it after that. No expansion to buy means they need to focus on gem-stores like a F2P game. So while they do charge money for the original copy they are now working in a more F2P business model with there gem-store focus. However there any many threads about that already like https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Too-Much-Temporary-Content-Can-Only-Harm-GW2/page/12#post2425046 and https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/GW2-unlikely-to-get-expansions-Interview/page/11#post2424875 .
Someone brought this up before, but the majority of people from the Golden Age of MMOs (2004 with the advent of WoW) are all now in their late-20s, have careers (most of us I assume) and are significantly more casual than they/we used to be. We are the target market for this game, in my opinion. We have the history of being really hard-core when we were able back in the day and we are the ones that now have the disposable income to support a F2P game that caters to the casual.
But we did not sign up for a F2P game, we signed up for a B2P game where we support the game with expansion, not with the cash-shop and all it’s negative side-effects like temporary content.
Anyway, like Kaaboose said. It seem to be always the same people here (including me) and I think I made my point clear, I am now mainly repeating myself because people don’t read the thread. What I do understand with such a big thread but still.
So I think I will leave it with that.
The fact that I did 16/16 Bazaar Achievements in less than 3 days doesn’t help either.
Hell, I’m not even rushing or using any guide, everything’s too simplistic.
And what should I do now? Wait another week till I get other 5 hour content update?
How about adding new HARD permanent repeatable dungeons?
Is it too hard to create a decent hard content for players that want an actual challenge? Is 1% Hardcore 99% Casual content division unfair?As has been established elsewhere the casual player is between 30 -60 years of age and has the most disposable income while the average age of a hardcore player is 20 years of age has has the least amount of disposable income.
If you ran a business which group would you target?
Most would answer those with the most money to throw away.
That is what Anet has done… so get use to it, or learn to be a casual player soon then later. Because trust me unless you die at 25 you will become one.EDIT: Real Live always wins. A pretty woman becomes more important then a game. Then a job that pays enough to give you a disposable income comes into play. Then kids who start to not only suck up that income but your remaining time. As it is gamers that have been around for around twenty years is no longer the oddity but the norm. Anet knows this. That is why this game is causal player centric.
I’m looking for it, and I can’t find your “claim” established anywhere. More propaganda.
http://www.advisorperspectives.com/dshort/updates/Household-Incomes-by-Age-Brackets.php
http://ocw.metu.edu.tr/pluginfile.php/2372/mod_resource/content/1/ColeGriffiths.PDF
kill… let me know when you are going to stop being the pot calling the kettle back please. I would appreciate it
I’m assuming you didn’t bother to read that, because it actually disproves your theory. Thanks.
Casual gamer studies are generally involved with mobile technology, and or social media games.
For broad terms in gaming: Casual gamers don’t play mmo’s
For broad terms in MMO’s: Casual players don’t have anything to do with time investment, but a playstyle.
For a Broad look at what MMO publishers want their players to do: They want players to log in every day and play. MMO publishers don’t want casual gamers from the broader spectrum of the game populace. MMO’s attract and are fed by gamers who are attached to the game, are invested, and who want to play. Not people who log in once a week, or weekenders.MMO’s are never and will never be targeted at a casual gamer.
talk about propaganda
come on killcannon… documentation…
You have more then once tried to peck this on me and then you make an inflammatory statement like above. back it up man
It’s common knowledge. Casual gamer does not equal an mmo casual player. The articles you linked give the data, read em.
That is not “common knowledge”
That is the common assumption.My point is that they targeting consumers between 25 and 55 where the most disposable income is and most of the casual players
All very interesting but it does not make temporary content any better.
(edited by Devata.6589)
So many words, so I’ll be brief.
Screw expansions.
Here’s the skinny. We know that there are now four teams working on Living Story content in four month cycles. That in itself is a lot. We also know that there are other teams working on the big, juicy stuff as well, things that take longer to refine and deliver. Things worthy of expansions. You all need to realize we’re getting the best of all worlds here… a constant influx of new content to do in between the big releases of major content. Look at games that rely on expansions. They toss you an expansion, you burn through it in a month and wait four or six months recycling the same old stuff waiting for the next release.
We’re getting a constant flow of new things to do while the “big” stuff is being developed. That works for me.
No you don’t get best of 2 worlds you get worse of 2 worlds. You get a F2P game that you payed for to play. To me thats the worse of to worlds.
I know what you mean.. whats the problem, a nice story leading up to content thats the same as an expansion. Sounds good I agree and they might indeed deliver the same amount of content. Thats not the issue here.
The problem for me (there are some other reasons for other people) is that you also have to think about the business behind it. I signed up for a B2P game because I do not like F2P game because of there focus on cash-shops (like the temporary content, but I will not go further into that now). So now Anet does not work with expansions they are focusing on the gem-store for income.
Thats my problem with it.
It’s not the idea of content overtime that leads to the same amount as a expansion would do. that by itself (forgetting the business behind it) would be fine. But there is a business behind it so we can’t forget about that.
Why is that a problem? There’s nothing at all in the cash shop that’s required to move through this game whatsoever. Nothing you can buy that makes you better, more powerful, etc. Just fluff. Yes, some pretty nice fluff, but fluff none-the-less.
I recall a predecessor MMO that I played once… I paid for the game then paid every month to play the game I paid for all the while waiting for the opportunity to pay for an expansion in order to get more content, and then when I did I didn’t get the full expansion, just releases every few months… months which I continued to pay extra for to play the part of the expansion that was released that I paid for to expand the content of the game that I paid for.
You want me to believe you’d rather have that scenario than to simply pay for the game and get access to all the content available (which is constantly being added on to) while being given the option to choose from a myriad of fluff items to buy only if you wish?
Really?
No really not as thats not what I am saying. I am not comparing it to an sub-scription based game and I also don’t play them. I am comparing B2P to F2P.
Whats bad about F2P.. or better whats bad about cash-shop focus. Well in the case of GW2 thats the temporary content. I don’t like temporary content thats there to pressure people to play and buy gems. I prefer a B2P game where I buy the game and expansions and then have always access to all the aspects of the game based on the fact that I did buy the game and the expansion. No temporary stuff to try and get me to play / buy gems. No currency-driven system because they want me to buy gems and convert it to gold in stead of farming mats. No game where decisions ingame are based on the question “how do we get people to buy gems” in stead of “how do we get the game to be so good people will also buy the expansions”.
You might not have a problem with gem-store focus, I do.
And you don’t have to compare it to an sub-based game as this thread is about the other option.. expansion based / B2P.
The reiterate what many have already said, people are displaying a ridiculous amount of impatience here. Typical MMO’s would take just as long as this to release any substantial content updates, and the 8 months that people like to bandy around is simply the amount of time ANet has had to develop such content. Expect to hear information towards the end of the year following the games anniversary, not before.
This thread was not started because Anet did not say nothing about an expansion yet and people became impatience. It was started because Anet said they are not planning only any expansion so far (not planning.. so thats also not working). Quotes from Mike Zadorojny for the reason this thread was started.
“So right now we’re not really looking at expansions as an option,”
“If we do this right,” “we will probably never do an expansion and everything will be going into this Living World strategy.”
Now there is this little bid of hope that they do not say anything about it because they want it to be a surprise.. But looking at how the game already is strongly focused on the gem-store thats not the most likely possibility.
Only other hope is they changed there idea’s before it destroys the game.
There are already many complains about temporary content so that helps a little but in the end the financial people won’t read that, they will look at the numbers and when they see a decline in players they first will think it’s just because of an external factor and then when they figure out they really need to change there idea’s it’s to late.
There is also another number they will look at and thats the gem-sales. Thats something people can have influence on.
So many words, so I’ll be brief.
Screw expansions.
Here’s the skinny. We know that there are now four teams working on Living Story content in four month cycles. That in itself is a lot. We also know that there are other teams working on the big, juicy stuff as well, things that take longer to refine and deliver. Things worthy of expansions. You all need to realize we’re getting the best of all worlds here… a constant influx of new content to do in between the big releases of major content. Look at games that rely on expansions. They toss you an expansion, you burn through it in a month and wait four or six months recycling the same old stuff waiting for the next release.
We’re getting a constant flow of new things to do while the “big” stuff is being developed. That works for me.
God I do love brevity. +1
To bad that is usually means you leave out a big part of the relevant facts.
So many words, so I’ll be brief.
Screw expansions.
Here’s the skinny. We know that there are now four teams working on Living Story content in four month cycles. That in itself is a lot. We also know that there are other teams working on the big, juicy stuff as well, things that take longer to refine and deliver. Things worthy of expansions. You all need to realize we’re getting the best of all worlds here… a constant influx of new content to do in between the big releases of major content. Look at games that rely on expansions. They toss you an expansion, you burn through it in a month and wait four or six months recycling the same old stuff waiting for the next release.
We’re getting a constant flow of new things to do while the “big” stuff is being developed. That works for me.
No you don’t get best of 2 worlds you get worse of 2 worlds. You get a F2P game that you payed for to play. To me thats the worse of to worlds.
I know what you mean.. whats the problem, a nice story leading up to content thats the same as an expansion. Sounds good I agree and they might indeed deliver the same amount of content. Thats not the issue here.
The problem for me (there are some other reasons for other people) is that you also have to think about the business behind it. I signed up for a B2P game because I do not like F2P game because of there focus on cash-shops (like the temporary content, but I will not go further into that now). So now Anet does not work with expansions they are focusing on the gem-store for income.
Thats my problem with it.
It’s not the idea of content overtime that leads to the same amount as a expansion would do. that by itself (forgetting the business behind it) would be fine. But there is a business behind it so we can’t forget about that.
This is an appreciation thread for getting the kites. Please try not to contaminate it with lack of appreciation banter. There are already other threads for the “but it’s not fair because I didn’t get one” crowd.
Luckily it’s not about “but it’s not fair because I didn’t get one”. I do agree with that point but it’s not the point I was making.
PS this was the correct threat as is was directed to the gem-buyers and they will be here, not in those other threads.
But thats all I had to say so go on thanking Anet for how awesome there are turning it into a F2P game.
(edited by Devata.6589)
On the other hand.. The kites also have a function as Badge of Shame. Everybody can now see who buys gems and so helps to keep the gem-store focus alive.
Oh yes, how shameful it is that we chose to support the game we enjoy playing.
I will now hide in the corner (with my kite), while you continue to play the game we helped pay for.
Guess what, everybody payed for it and if an expansion would be released many would also pay for that. Buying gems does not help the game, it makes it worse as it results in a gem-store focus and that gem-store focus results in bad behavior like making temporary content and stuff.
So no, you did not help the game. Not for anybody that does not like the gem-store focus / temporary content and whatever more comes from that focus.
I am perfectly fine giving anet more of my money. For the same price as a console game I would beat in 40hrs and never play again, I have played this game for over 2000 hours. By my calculations, I still owe anet over $3000 lol.
Console game? I don’t play console games so maybe thats where our different points of view come from. My references are games like BattleField 1942, Return to Castle Wolfenstein, Wolfenstein : Enemy Territory but even a game like Battlefield 3 kept me busy for at least 1,5 with the premium pack. Meaning it is 90 Euro to keep you busy for 1,5 year. And then that was still bad compared to BF1942 knowing that BF3 required the premium pack to get the same amount of content as BF1942 did without expansions.
But lets say subscription-based games are the standard.. they aren’t looking all the sub-based games of the last years failed as a sub-based game. then it would still be 50 + 15 × 12 = 230. And that did not work for them (the last years).
Just to get an idea.. most console games cost about 60 dollar so thats 3000 / 60 = 50. 365 / 7,5 days. And then I forgot about the fact that you payed for the GW2, you most likely did buy gems and GW2 is not a year old. But still you own them 3000 dollar. Hmm you have pretty low expectations of games if you think 60 dollars for a game should pay you less then 7,5 days of play-time.
So I say a game of that price would need to keep you busy for 1 / 1,5 year and am I willing to pay again after that time. Sure. Come with an expansion and I will.
No the problem is that when gem-store works they won’t focus on expansions but on gem-store meaning you get decisions in the game based on the gem-store not on whats better for the game and in fact it might make the game worse. Like temporary content for example.
So it’s not about even about if they should get money or not it’s about how the way you give money affects the game in a positive or a negative way.
Thank you Anet for this amazing gift, really make me respect you more for this kind of importance you gave to us. Thanks you and GG
Funny how it makes you respect them more and me respect them less. but then again.. I guess thats the whole point isn’t it.
I see the gem-store are kryptonite to GW2.
Anet is now focusing on the gem-store in stead of expansion gving you stuff like temporary content to get people to buy stuff and gift to gem-buyers. There is a reason I never play F2P games but I did go for GW2.
Sadly enough GW2 starts to look more like a F2P game then a B2P game. With as only difference that you had to pay to get it. They sort of combine the worst of two worlds.
Somehow I hope they will soon start focusing on expansions again and lose there focus on the gem-store.
On the other hand.. The kites also have a function as Badge of Shame. Everybody can now see who buys gems and so helps to keep the gem-store focus alive.
hahahaha!
sure ftP- where you pay for level unlocks, content, stats, to be able to trade the list goes on and on…. Maybe you should pop into a FtP game sometime to see just how they operate.
Anyway your idea of shame and mine must not come from the same dictionary- I will play with my Kite proudly just to remind the likes of you why you get to play for free.
I don’t play for free I did buy the game and I would not play for free because I don’t like the cash-shop focus in those games, besides I payed more then many people who did buy the game AND did buy gems. So thats not the point.
I did pop in to those games and I did not like them. Thats why I went for a B2P game. But it’s not true all F2P games are just about P2W, your content example is already in GW2 as they made stuff temporary.
The stuff Anet does is just as much of negative F2P behavior as anything also without the P2W part.
On the other hand.. The kites also have a function as Badge of Shame. Everybody can now see who buys gems and so helps to keep the gem-store focus alive.
Oh yes, how shameful it is that we chose to support the game we enjoy playing.
I will now hide in the corner (with my kite), while you continue to play the game we helped pay for.
Guess what, everybody payed for it and if an expansion would be released many would also pay for that. Buying gems does not help the game, it makes it worse as it results in a gem-store focus and that gem-store focus results in bad behavior like making temporary content and stuff.
So no, you did not help the game. Not for anybody that does not like the gem-store focus / temporary content and whatever more comes from that focus.
“What is wrong with GW2” There are many thinks that could be better.
one world in stead of instance based maps, fractions, mounts, better guild management tools, traditional quest, (open word) housing, more stuff to farm (make rare mini’s, and skins drop from mobs or dungeons), less currency / gold driven, fun crafts.
Some of them are big issues other small.
But at this specific moment the biggest problem is temporary content what is the result of gem-store focus (in stead of expansions focus).
The suggestion would be.. do something about the above.
Temporary content is bad by itself. This is just one example but we did see this with multiple temporary content. Not only this one.
Anet had to stop they temporary content stuff, but it comes out of a gem-store focus. Make temporary content and get so pressure people to play and buy gems.
If you really want this to stop don’t buy gems (and buy the expansion if available), if you really like temporary content buy gems (and don;t buy an expansion).. And be aware, I am talking about temporary content, not regular patches.. people seem to mix those two up a lot on the forums.
Thank you Anet for this amazing gift, really make me respect you more for this kind of importance you gave to us. Thanks you and GG
Funny how it makes you respect them more and me respect them less. but then again.. I guess thats the whole point isn’t it.
I see the gem-store are kryptonite to GW2.
Anet is now focusing on the gem-store in stead of expansion gving you stuff like temporary content to get people to buy stuff and gift to gem-buyers. There is a reason I never play F2P games but I did go for GW2.
Sadly enough GW2 starts to look more like a F2P game then a B2P game. With as only difference that you had to pay to get it. They sort of combine the worst of two worlds.
Somehow I hope they will soon start focusing on expansions again and lose there focus on the gem-store.
On the other hand.. The kites also have a function as Badge of Shame. Everybody can now see who buys gems and so helps to keep the gem-store focus alive.
Thankee, Anet for the great Kite!
Well you know. Anet just loves you gem-buyers a little bid more. Thats how it works in F2P games.
I am going to try and keep this post short and to point. I’m not intending to be abrupt, but I don’t want to be long winded here.
Guild Wars 2 is a year old and as is human nature I feel that many of the posters on this forum are beginning to take many of the features and innovations of Guild Wars 2 for granted.
I think that is what truly seperates the percieved complainers from the percieved fanboys.
I don’t know why but I just watched this 30 minute review on Youtube. The review is about a year old, when the game was still fresh and new in our minds and there were even features mentioned that I took for granted.
The purpose of this post is not to tell people to stop complaining, it is not to trivialize the genunine concerns some people have for the game.
Watch this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ax-_06Acj8Y and if you actually sit through it and watch it, it might remind you that there are so many features in Guild Wars 2 that you just won’t find in other games.
I do warn you, the video is very positive, and some of the people that are frustrated with the current state of the game may be tempted to just turn it off. I don’t share all of the opinions of this reviewer, but I do share his enthusiasum, and I hope to keep that for as long as possible.
There can be so many great features. If you need to remind people about them something is wrong.
For me that is temporary content, currency-driven PvE, no fun crafts and no fun drops (but that is related to curency-driven PvE), instance based based maps and no quest. Hopefully some of that stuff might still come but at this specific moment temporary content seems to be the biggest complain many people have.
The thing is. GW2 has great potential, and what you are referring to is that potential. But you still need to make use of it’s potential .
It doesn’t matter if we’re getting it every 2 weeks, 3 weeks, 10 weeks or whatever, what matters is that it will be gone soon and you won’t get to experiance it if you don’t play in the timeframe Anet allocates.
It’s ok! There are many things you will never experience. Learn to let go.
In real life yes. luckily in games there is no need for that.
Really what you say is ‘yes it’s bad, learn to live with it’.. Well the think is, indeed many people think thats bad but there is no need for it to bee this way. Learn to make the best of it.
I would like to chime in a bit on this living story doesnt change any thing because everything reverts back to almost square one.
Thats how change works.. change is only change while it happens. I’ve given this example a million times now but here we go again. How did world war 2 change the world? while it was going on A LOT, countries being conquered, people dieing, buildings destroyed. How did it change the world for the next few years after it ended? So and so. You could still see the distraction of course, families torn apart by the horrors of the war and countries still occupied. How did WW2 change the world today? the only change that probably remains is a few treaties if that. All the damage has been fixed, the countries that were previously occupied regained their independence and everything went back nearly to square one.
The attackers lost the war but still all the dead people did not come back to life so it changed the word in a big big big way. Till this day Germany is not allowed to have an army. Because many people died they did not get kids but the person who they would else have had kids with might have kids with somebody else, who else would have kids with somebody else and so on… If there would not have been a war the world would be totally differed today. We most likely would not have goon to the moon yet and satellites might still not exist or where just new meaning mobile phones where not yet as advanced. I can basically go on for hours as all the possible difference are infinite and while we don’t know the exact number of changes we know it’s a lot.
The only thing that really is gone is the event itself. There was a war and thats over.
Thats exactly why I said I don’t mind if the events them-self are temporary.. I still would say make it possible to look back at it (Like history books / video’s) but link achivements, items, rewards and so to the content that stays. There is no problem in doing that (except for the fact that is does not fit the marketing plan.. thats why I simultaneously say, change you marketing plan by focusing on expansions in stead of on the gem-store).
Too much content is scary to players. They need that choice taken away from them so they won’t be pressured into doing it.
Its not so much as scary, but overwhelming really. Actually I am curious how not more players agree here.
It’s simple.
People often leave games when they run out of things to do. They will run out of things to do more quickly if there are fewer things to do (due to, for example, temporary content) than if there are more things to do (lots of permanent content).
Personally, I prefer games with ‘overwhelming’ amounts of content. Games with a wide variety of content – content that will be there when I’m ready to tackle it. I feel GW2 got off to a good start in this regard, a great start, even, but now this living story deal just isn’t providing the growth the game needs.
They’re adding new stuff every 2 weeks. How can you ever run out of stuff to do if you have new things to do every two weeks? Isnt no living story a lot worst? people claimed to have played everything by the end of the 2nd week of release. The 2nd week! they were wrong no doubt but thats how they felt. Proof posted on the 12th of september:
http://www.keenandgraev.com/2012/09/13/level-80-gw2-what-nextIf you look you’ll find more.
If they keep this 2 weeks releases we’ll never going to end up with nothing to do. And permanent stuff is still being added with a promise that they’ll focus more on permanent then temporary stuff. Beyond this there is the long term stuff they’ve been working on. No doubt in my mind thats going to be permanent stuff as well.
This LS is merely them solving what was previously an unsolvable problem. How to provide enough content to keep people happy until we can release the next big thing.
You are defending regular updates here, not temporary content. And believe it or not but people will even get bored of being pressured in doing something every 2 weeks. Make it non-temporary and the pressure is there but the “there is something ‘new’ to do” is still there.
But then again.. the whole idea is to create the pressure because they want people to be online and buy gems, and it will work for some time.. until people get bored of being pressured into doing stuff or after completionist have missed to much or after new players get frustrated because the whole time they ask somebody “nice weapon / mini / armor, where did you get that?” the answer is “From some event last year, but you can’t get that anymore”.
Imagine we’re in an alternative universe and imagine if this were gw1 at release. Imagine they did the living story over there. Every 2 weeks we get some temporary content akin to what we’re getting now but then after 1 year and a half we still get all the content of factions.
Now tell me if thats the case would the negativity regarding the temporary content be still justified?
Imagine it is 1886 and the Benz Patent-Motorwagen is equipped with square wheels.
sure no problem… but what does that have to do with what we’re saying?
A bad idea is a bad idea, regardless of when or where it’s implemented.
If anet had gone the ‘living story’ route with GW, we probably wouldn’t be here today talking about GW2.
So what you’re saying is if gw1 did all that it did exactly the same but added LS it would have failed? This is what I dont get about this kind of critisism. I can accept people not liking something, its fine, there are things I dont like too. But why not just ignore those things you dont like. If Gw1 did what it did but added LS to them. Ignoring that LS still gives you the same Gw1 you got. The same Gw1 you are very happy with. How is adding more stuff to a successful product suddenly make it a failure?
This whole thing is build around the idea that people don’t want to miss out on it. So it’s not just about “I don’t like it so I don’t do it” but it’s about.. I maybe like the content maybe not but if I do not do it now I miss out on it being the event, the rewards, the dungeons and if I was not here I did miss out on something I would have liked.
So your argument is invalid. It’s not like there is something in the game people don’t like. There was something they liked but Anet took it out again. + in a way people get pressured in doing it.
The sad thing is that Anet already did this with the daily’s when introducing the Laurels and they got a lot of complains about that but in stead of doing something with those complains they do the same trick on a much lager scale.
You see a laurel is also like temporary content.. that one laurel you can only get today.. tomorrow you can get another one but if you missed out on today’s one you will not get anymore.. And that works in a annoying way where people sort of get pressured to do the daily but for how long.. At some point people will start losing interest while the bad feeling of being pressured is still there.
I do understand the marketing technique behind it and it works but only in the short run. And the more of those pressure moments you make the faster it will work out. Some how most financial people only look at the short term what is fine in the short term but will be bad in the long term.
It’s very possible that ArenaNet is working on large permanent content as we speak. Obviously there are a number of elder dragons out there other than Zhaitan and new zones to unlock. If we end up getting those types of changes somewhat regularly, then it will help to lessen some of the disappointment in missing other content. If I was getting permanent content every so often and then using the temporary content as a way to hold me off in-between I could definitely live with that. Like I said, that could be exactly the plan but since that hasn’t been explicitly stated I can only talk about my opinions of the current temporary content release design.
That might fix the problem of “not enough new content for returning players” but it does not fix the problem of temporary content.. like being ‘pressured’ to play, missing out on that temporary content like achievements, dungeons, rewards, skins and so on.
There’s just no way to compare this to anything because it hasn’t been done before.
Probably for the same reason auto manufacturers have not embraced the concept of square wheels.
It’s not for the same reason.
Square wheels don’t serve any purpose. Living Story serves a purpose. Permanent content serves a purpose too. Anet has goals that work best with the LS instead of the traditional content patches.
Temporary content, such as has been provided by the Living Story, serves no purpose that could not be equally or better served by permanent content, which is what could have been and should have been provided with the Living Story.
Temporary content is, for anyone who happened to miss it, vaporware.
That’s your opinion. You are welcome to develop an MMO based on old principles and see if they are really better.
“That’s your opinion.” = “I can’t counter your argument.”
“Oh, yeah? Well, make your own!” = “I can’t think of anything relevant to say.”In my opinion, of course.
“That’s your opinion.” = “Arena.net thinks otherwise.”
“Oh, yeah? Well, make your own!” = “You are here to play Arena.net’s game, with Arena.net’s rules. The LS is part of their design plan.”
And he did like the game but when Anet changed the rules he started to dislike the game, he finds that a pity for this game that has so much potential and where he already put a lot of time in.. But he knows if Anet continue like this he and many other people will stop playing so he it here to let Anet know there new rules or new way of thinking is bad.
Temporary content sounds more like real life. If you miss it, there’s no do over!
I’m all for it. If I miss something, to bad for me!
Yeah indeed. And if you die you may never ever start GW2 again That would make it more real life.. You are all for it?
I do like that in those games some elements are not like in real life.. Like missing out on things and so on.
So what’s your point? I can’t tell whether you agree or disagree…
Which are “those” games? Do you proof read what you write?
I don’t agree, what I am saying is that I don’t believe you agree with it yourself. I mean.. you did never die so far? And if you did,you stopped playing? I have the feeling you have died multiple times and are still playing so you like that it not like real life but that when you die you can still go on.
Well I don’t think there is any game where if you die you can’t play it anymore.. even in DayZ you can start over again. So while I do like it if they make some stuff more real-life you don’t put the bad thinks of real life in a game.
" ANet is breaking new ground, and I pity the players who feel compelled to jump up and down, shaking their first about how the world is not how they feel it should be. Get over it! Play! Enjoy! It’s supposed to be FUN!"
Yeah it’s supposed to be fun any many people seem to agree this new ground is ruining the fin so they come to shaking their first about how the world is not how they feel it should be, like fun.
(edited by Devata.6589)
Temporary content sounds more like real life. If you miss it, there’s no do over!
I’m all for it. If I miss something, to bad for me!
I can’t speak for all but one of the reasons I enjoy gaming is because it doesn’t have the same limitations as RL. Even Day Z lets you start all over again when you die.
Lol in my reactions to that post I fist also put exactly the same line about DayZ. But I took it out before posting.
Making people have to keep up, even as they’re doing it now, is too much for most people.
Making people have to keep up, even as they’re doing it now, is too much for most people…
Vayne this is exactly what Temporary content IS doing. Making people have to keep up.
.
They don’t HAVE to do the old stuff. That’s the point YOU’RE missing. But they’d have the OPTION of doing so if they wanted to.
Yes, this content is making people keep up. That’s true. That’s the POINT of this content. To make people keep up. And it’s working.
The trick is to give people stuff to do, without making it so hard to catch up that people never do.
If you don’t get this, then you don’t get it. That’s fine. But the major reason people end up walking away from games like WoW is because they know they’ll never catch up. It’s a big big big reason why people stop. They just cant’ keep going.
Making people keep up with something that is then gone actually takes the pressure OFF some people. Not all people, but some. In my opinion more than enough to justify the decision.
“The trick is to give people stuff to do, without making it so hard to catch up that people never do.”
So hard to catch up.. hmm well the only way they can now catch up is to be do the events whenever they are available.. else they will never ever be able to catch up.
So if people walk away from WoW because it’s so hard to keep up, why would they not walk away from GW2 because it’s impossible to catch up?
And once again.. you are not making them do anything. But with the temporary stuff you do provide more pressure then with permanent content.
And those people you are talking about are probably the same that also don’t care if they do not catch up in WoW because they care or they don’t care. The difference is having an option or not.
Temporary content sounds more like real life. If you miss it, there’s no do over!
I’m all for it. If I miss something, to bad for me!
Yeah indeed. And if you die you may never ever start GW2 again That would make it more real life.. You are all for it?
I do like that in those games some elements are not like in real life.. Like missing out on things and so on.
I had a lot more respect for you before you started to get personal. I’m not losing this argument but I am responding to lots of ideas and people and sometime my post run together. And by repeating the same things over and over doesn’t make them more right.
Everyone knows where to start on CURRENT content. That’s not really the point. But no one knows where to start once they finish the current content. So a guy does what’s currently there, and spends a few days a week in the new content. He only has 1 week before the next new content comes out.
So he goes where? Remember this story is relatively linear. So he goes from the refugees on Southsun backwards to the MF dungeon? Does he go from the Sky Pirates back to the mystery where they first appear?
When I go through this content, there’s an understanding of continuity. It’s not great stuff, but it’s followable. The context for some people is important. I’m following a story and characters. Obviously not everyone well.
Throwing it all in at once ruins the context and with maybe a week to go back and do four chapters now, ten chapters in another 12 weeks….you’re not seeing this problem because you personally wouldn’t experience this problem.
I’m TELLING you (not a guess) it would be a problem for a lot of people. You want tons of content and you want everything there. Fair enough.
But the casual audience of this game that ducks in and out, once they finish the current content would go exactly where?
This game is designed around casual people and people jumping in and out of the game. Keeping this as temporary content KEEPS the game a casual game. Particularly now that there are rewards for achievement points.
Making people have to keep up, even as they’re doing it now, is too much for most people. And you’re wanting them to add stuff that people would feel they have to go back to do.
It’s a bad move.
It’s not personal at you but at your comments
“Everyone knows where to start on CURRENT content.” You said they didn’t.
“But no one knows where to start once they finish the current content.` He just picks something he likes.. you know just like he now would when he is done with the story. He go´s for some dungeon or whatever.. The dungeons in this game also have all linear story so if you think it´s bad to keep the new dungeons in because people might not know what to do then we could just as well delete all dungeons after you completed it once. Thats exactly the same.
And of course he still has the option to not do any of it.. same as what you now are forced to.
I mean, come on, this is the exact same of argument I was talking about in the last comment. You do see it does not really make any sense?
“Throwing it all in at once ruins the context and with maybe a week to go back and do four chapters now, ten chapters in another 12 weeks….you’re not seeing this problem because you personally wouldn’t experience this problem.”
You do not have to. You have the option to. Thats something else. If you do not like that because it’s a problem for you then you don’t. And if you have a problem with not being able to read back a chapter then you still have the ability to do so. win win.
“But the casual audience of this game that ducks in and out, once they finish the current content would go exactly where?” The same place they go now.
“This game is designed around casual people and people jumping in and out of the game. Keeping this as temporary content KEEPS the game a casual game. Particularly now that there are rewards for achievement points.”
I wonder is casual players ever care about the story so then being able to do old dungeons to get the thinks they like would even be a bigger plus.
And it’s not temporary content that keeps them busy it’s content that keeps them busy. No need for it to be temporary to keep them busy.
“Making people have to keep up, even as they’re doing it now, is too much for most people. And you’re wanting them to add stuff that people would feel they have to go back to do.”
How is making them doing anything.. if there is any talk about making them do something it’s with the current system.. Do it now or you can’t. But really.. nobody is ever really making people have to keep up.. certainly not when the content is not temporary.
I don’t mind temporary events and I think most people don’t. I do mind temporary ……, rewards / skins / items ……
I wanted to key in on this part of your comment Devata.
One of the main driving factors in any MMO for many players is the ability to show off the latest and greatest toy. In most MMOs it was due to the fact that it also did the most damage for the moment. It was also due to the uniqueness of this item.
You had the newest “Shiny” to steal a word from the Skritt.These temporary skins creates a sense if individuality that most seek to have in these game. How would you feel if everyone was running around with the Molten Alliance Greatsword on their back. It would lose meaning and interest. It would not be unique but the standard.
This is one of the things that makes me like GW2 even more. Your character or characters have their own personal look. Not just through dying their armor, but with their weapons as well. To those that RP this is a great thing. To those that live vicariously through their characters it gives them a sense that they are special as long as they have the skin.
So next year the Molten Alliance returns and more people get that skin. Then another event come along and it was a greatsword skin that leaves all other wanting and you and a few others get it. You are now the special one. Someone may come up to you and say “hey cool sword” you can thank them and move on or even join up with them in a group.
That is the purpose of the temp skins. There will more to come and there will be old ones that come back. Just go with the flow and enjoy the ride.
As will the axe, the pick and the sickle.
I did here this argument a lot but it’s not valid. If there are enough good looking items and some of them are race it will still be possible to ‘unique’ character. Example.. is everybody running around with an Eternity on his back? No.. Will at some point everybody be running around with one? No. Will it for always be very unique, will it for ever be unique? The Eternity maybe as there are greatsword’s but make 10 legendary weapons of them all and some very cool hand hard to find exotics and so on and it will still be very unique. No need to be temporary for that.
And let me clarify the not minding temporary event.. I would like to be able to see it again like in a log with video and stuff but I do understand how you might want to make temporary as some enemy attacks at some point, so in a way there is a need to have temporary but for the other thinks there is no good reason to make it temporary. The only reason I hear for that is the one you just gave and it’s simply not valid.
Besides Anet did a 180 on this one. The CE had the mini but you can still buy that.. what I hearth (I did not see a official statemend about this) that was because they wanted everybody to be able to get that skin. On GameCom they gave away skins for a T-shirt however they stopped with that during the first day because it would not be fare to people not being at GamesCom because they could then now get it (Official statement, if I remember correctly they said this on twitter).. however now every event has skins you can not ever get when you did not attend it.
GW2 is still a fairly new game and I predict that people will one day look back on each of the temporary events with nostalgia.
The first part of your sentence many people do not wish to acknowledge. As has been pointed out. Two other MMOs that are out at this time did not add any new content for over a year.
Here we are in the middle of the tenth month and we ARE getting new content. This blows all other MMOs out of the water. People should just be happy with that fact alone, but they would rather complain.As to the second part of your sentence. I believe you are correct and I will go a step further in saying; with speculation. That they may even say that GW2 was one of the best MMOs they have experienced
Many of those complainers hope your last part to become true but see some problems with the current stuff Anet is doing thinking it will for sure not be what they will say if Anet keeps on doing this.. And because they would like it will become that way they are here to let Anet know what they think.. Because thats what Anet asked.
I like the temporary content. The completionist in me is sad when I don’t get 100% of it done, but then the next thing pops up and I’m happy to have something new and be done with the old.
GW2 is still a fairly new game and I predict that people will one day look back on each of the temporary events with nostalgia.
I don’t mind temporary events and I think most people don’t. I do mind temporary achievements, rewards / skins / items and dungeons.
And you can also look at new stuff while you still have the possibility to do the old stuff.
…
I will keep this shorter.
So basically you agree with he first part but disagree that in this case urgency would get people to buy stuff. I think it works from my own perspective (looking at the world) but also from what marketing-people say.
In our country we even have laws that say that if you buy something by phone you have multiple days to change your mind. This is because of pressure and because they used to try and create an feel of urgency.. If you buy it now we will get x % off.
The alts is just one of the examples. That would be a reason for some.. for else it’s because they are afraid they will regret not getting it and so there may be more reasons for more persons.
But maybe the question is not.. is it working but is Anet doing it because they think / know it works?
On another thread you already came up with a compromise where you basically would leave everything available so I guess on that part we are in agreement.
The achievements parts. For you that might be the reason but I also saw somebody literally say that he was a completionist and because he missed something already the aspect of getting achievements was lost for him in GW2 so that would not be a reason to come back anymore. Am I a completionist.. Yes and know.. I hate it to know I would never be able to get a specific thing (achievement or item).. but thats no surprise I guess. However for the items that does not go so far that I will buy it with money and for the achievements.. well after I will have missed one I will also not care anymore about the other. Basically the same as that other guy was saying.
Last the difficulty for something to be conquered. Yeah practice might make you better so if you are willing to practice you might be able to get it.. but then you also urned it.
Now it’s on a time-base. So if you are on vacation now you will also not get some achievements.. that however does not mean you did not earn to get it… if you would be here. So I prefer by far the skill (even if you can learn it) then the time. And I see skill linked to difficulty while I don’t see time linked to difficulty. I do understand your point but can’t you also say that in the beginning everybody needs to learn it so it might be also based on luck.. and then when you a week late many persons have a week more practice as you so you have a disadvantage.
Anyway.. I think we do understand each other and it might be a case of agree to disagree. I however did like you ‘compromise’ in the other thread. Like I said there.. that would work for me. Not my favorite option but it’s fine. (without it being locked behind a month that is)
I think we have two schools of thought here and honestly They both have very valid arguments. I mean it!
Temporary content is good because it provides stuff to do, changes the world tangibly and avoids fracturing the playerbase
Permanent content is good because it allows you to play everything at your own pace, makes it so you can gain those rewards eventually, enriches the world at large.
So I’ve been thinking and I got an idea how you could merge both of these together.
What if we got a herald / historian / whatever in FotM who’s job would be to tweak the whatever machine that makes fractal work to focus on specific episodes in time, 1 month at a time. So this month you could relive the events / activities of the flame and frost event while next month it might be the lost shores story.
Now this would require some changes going forward i would assume, I mean for something like this to work the story driving events would have to be instanced. Unless Anet doesnt have the technology to create replayable instances of real world events easily.. that would be totally awesome if it would work.
I think it might be a good idea.. you talk to this npc and he asks you what you want to relive and then you choose like say Dragon Ball or you choose the effigy ceremony and you get to play that.
I think that would solve the biggest issues of both schools. Players will be able to re-experience the older content they might have missed / really enjoyed and at the same time it would still limit fragmentation as it will not all be available at the same time.
Brilliant? Idiotic? I am curious what do people think?
It’s better then it is now. I was also thinking about something like that however I still prefer to simply link achievements, rewards / skins and dungeons to the non-temporary part while there is room for a temporary event / story that you can still view somewhere.
And like I said to you in another comment I don’t like locking something behind a day / week whatever.
Besides it would not work here.. They keep releasing new content so you need to keep adding those events in the ‘machine’ and it will never be able to keep running circles of the events.
But lets say they would make it simply available somewhere so you can always decide where you want to go.. so some time travel machine. I would be oke with that. It is not my first choice but it would work for me and I would be happy with that change.
(edited by Devata.6589)
I dont believe gw2 is on the decline at all. If it were they’d be working on an expansion rather then focusing on the cash shop for one.
I also don’t think they are on the decline because I agree with the topic starter. What they are doing it bad in the long run.
However saying that if they would be on the decline they would be making an expansion in stead of focusing on the cash shop seems to be false.
Most MMO’s that are on a decline start focusing on a cash shop trying to get some money that way while they can not work on an expansion simply because they don’t have the money / investors for it.
…
2/2
“Thats why I am skeptic about blaming such things on the cash shop. Some things could just as easily be game design decisions.”
It could but it’s unlikely. Like I said, it’s a very commonly used marketing trick. So while it would be possible, with the scenario as we know it, it’s extremely unlikely it has not to do with the gem-store focus. And they will of course never tell us if it is.. they might even deny it if they would be asked. But to be 100% sure you should be there when they talk about this sort of stuff. But with some common sense you should see how it is most likely linked to it. So most likely that I am 100% convinced of it.
""“the more successful the cash shop after all the better they can make the game. How about.. the more successful the game the more cash they can make…? "
This is exactly the same thing seen from different angles. "
No it is not.. In the first one they focus on the cash shop to make money with it.. you then say.. with that money they can make the game better.. While forgetting that the cash-shop focus might make the game worse and it’s not guaranteed that they make the game better, they also just might make a bigger profit.
With the second version there is a good game and because of that they make more money / profit.
…..
1/2
“And whether you farm them directly or by farming gold (unless you take CoF p1 which like I said is inbalanced) it will not make a difference which way you go” for many people it does. Farming directly for what you need (mats, of even better the skins / weapon / armor itself) will for many people be more fun then farming for currency’s to eventually buy them.
And no it’s not impossible.. bots do it.. but for people if they want to go for mats they need to go for gold. The hour / time price is not the same. This most likely has to do with the fact that people who are not looking for the mats might also get a drop. When farming is so near impossible those drops will be the reason the price will be lower then what you can earn by forming the same time for money.
“Thing is the fact its gone forever is what gives it value though. " The fact that it is rare gives it value.. yes if it’s gone it’s really really rare but if something is not gone it can still be very rare.
Legendary weapons aren’t gone but they still have high value because they are rare. So no need to take it out to create rareness / value.
“Never converted money into in game gold. It took me a lot of effort to get 3 tickets and I am very happy of getting those 3 tickets, it feels like an achievement, it makes it satisfying. If I could farm those skins forever I would have gotten the complete set in time and so would everyone else” So everybody has Eternity? And even if some people do not have it yet (because they just started) they all will get it? No they won’t.
If something is really hard to get (and fun, as I don’t see RNG boxes as fun) then the people who really want it might go for it, or they will buy it as some people prefer that. But it will still be rare and not everybody will have it.. If there was only 1 cool set to get you where correct with with many rare mini’s, weapons and armor in the game not everybody will get everything. And for that same reason they will also not all look similar.
If I still had the change I would farm for the jet-pack because I liked that. From Halloween I did like some weapons and I indeed might also have goon for those but (assuming it will return next year) I will go for that next year and I likes the SAB skins. I however did not like the skins from the last stand at south sun so would not try to get that while somebody else maybe might not like the MF, Halloween and SAB skins but prefer to go for the south sun.
So taking it out would not mean you all look the same. Making sure there is a lot good looking armor / weapons in will already prevent people from looking the same. And for the people who like to look really unique there is the rare stuff they can buy or farm by doing dungeons, killing mobs or in whatever other it is possible to get that skin. Just as it works with the legendary weapons.
" I had a friend who’s been trying to get a specific mount in wow for 3 years! 3 whole years! and she might be at it for 48+ years in total because it has a 1% drop rate in a raid of 25 which is locked to once a week. Is that any better then temporary content? I dont think so…" Yes it is as there still is a possibility to get it and tell me.. why did she not buy it at the TP? Maybe she did prefer to try and get it as a drop in stead of farming for gold? Now try this in GW2.. your friend had no possibility at all to get the mount.
For the record, I do agree something like that should not be behind a weekly lock but except for that yeah I would prefer that and it also shows that what you said about not being unique when something will stay in forever is not correct.
“and still they have items that are much much harder to get then in Gw2” isn’t impossible to get not infinitely much harder then extreme hard to get? I already agreed it should not be behind a weekly lock but except for that yes then I would prefer the rare drop over the.. nope, not possible anymore.
“and while not temporary still the biggest majority of players will never get them.” so now you say many people will get it.. meaning it is not so very unique while before you where saying it was unique because people could not get it anymore and that was good. You are contradicting yourself here. Just saying.
Again look at the long term here. New content every 2 weeks. Leave it all in the game. Guy takes a break for three months, which happens. He comes back to a new thing and 11 things he’s missed. Missing stuff frustrates some people. Having too much to choose from, not knowing how to catch up would frustrate even more people.
And this might go on for a year. 104 updates for a year. Leave them all in? Not only would it divide the playerbase, but it would be completely overwhelming to most people.
Sandbox MMOs have never done was well as theme parks, probably for that reason.
No offense but where in the beginning I did not agree with you but I saw you as just a guy who passionately be-leaved in it the last few reactions give me more and more the feeling you will defend Anet for anything as your arguments begin to make less and less sense and ‘jump all over the place’.
It’s like you sort off ‘lost an argument’, lost in the way you don’t have really any arguments left against the other people but still try to hold on to your point? Then agree to disagree or just maybe chains your point of view.
First you talk about how people don’t know where to start, while everything always direct to the stuff that is active on that moment. So people who don’t care just start with whatever is active.
Now you even say people might not like to miss out on stuff…… what?? Yeah indeed they don’t! thats the whole point isn’t it.. The big difference is that when they leave it in they still have an option to do it anyway while if it is really gone they can’t do never do it anymore.. So guess what those people will prefer.. You here basically agree with the people against temporary content while trying to disagree with them.
And then you basically say that it might be so much content thats it’s to much.. That would mean that any expansion would have the same effect.. and if I am correct (might be mixing up two people) you said you could not compare GW2 to WoW in a discussion with another person because WoW had already way more years to create content.. Well if I would believe your last statement that would be a bad thing.
I think as time wears on….. and on, and on, more and more players are starting to see the negatives of the temporary content of the Living Story. And as time wears on Anet will see the faults in their design decisions, as it’s already starting now with the backpedaling we see from dev posts. If they want to keep the majority of their players, their mission statement will change.
Thank you op for your post and insight. Keep up the good fight.
Hmm killcannon…. I just went through the Dev Tracker and also no new articles or blogs.
No one is seeing this “backpedaling” you are referring too. Everything is still pointing to the current direction they are taking this game at the present.The “biggest flaw” most are agreeing upon is Anet needing the writers to present more compelling stories and/or more writers.
I think it’s not correct to blame the writers. I do understand how it looks that way but it has more to do with there task.
Anet is not working on an expansion so focuses on the gem-store. They do that buy putting stuff temporary in the gem-store / game, creating a feel of urgency so people will buy / play it. (Not because people like it, but because if they don’t do / buy it today it will be gone tomorrow (not literally tomorrow.. always seem to have do define such statements on the Internet))
That means that basically all the writes need to do, is create an excuse to put more temporary stuff in the gem-store /game and that is what they do. And they might try to make a bigger better story as a total but in the short run Anet just needs an excuse to put in more temporary stuff to get people to play and buy.
They just do there task.
Oh I understand what you are saying.
The thing is you can still deliver a compelling story in a short story format. You keep Ree and Jeff on the high end story arc placing their little seed of interest into it that is nice to know but not really required. Trust me; being a short story writer myself I know it can be done.
Yeah but maybe they are working on a good story with this shallow stories in-between. Who knows? But for me thats not the only or the main problem.
I just say.. don’t blame the writes but the shallow stories we see now as thats just the task they need to do.
.
I am mainly taking about the fact you can’t really farm for mats.. Thats exactly why they want to farm for money. You say yourself “In an ideal situation farming 1 hr in frostgorge for corrupted lodestones or 1 hr doing dungeons or 1 hr of doing dynamic events should net the same return (adjusted for risk / reward)” but in reality it is very hard to farm for mats, you are better of farming for gold and then buying the mats.. But focusing on specific mats is hard.
How many people who have a precursor do you think that really farmed the mats and how many farmed gold to buy it? I don;t have the numbers but have the feeling that those that just farmed the mats are a few because it’s nearly impossible.. Thats what I mend with gold-driven system.
“Holiday events might be returning but that doesnt mean the skin rewards we had in them will.” maybe not.. but may I for now believe it does? I did then and most likely many people think that way. So if it is then maybe the focus has always been there but then it was less obvious. And they said they add stuff to them.. Thats what I expected also back then. That does not mean you are not able to get the same stuff. I really liked the mini you had to make in the mystic forge (required gem-store mini’s) but I decided to go for that next year. Multiple people in the guild have said that so it’s not so strange to think it;s not temporary.. well with the knowledge of then.. looking with the knowledge from now it might just as well have been temporary and then it’s just as bad as the other temporary stuff.
“Every event including lost shores had their own set of skins and those probably are gone forever. " and thats the problem and thats why temporary stuff is bad. It’s gone forever. They can still undo it but for how thats the intention and thats why I (and many other) are here complaining about it.
“Why is that a bad thing?”
Because it’s gone forever.. If I ever like it I can not get it anymore. Thats why it’s bad. You might not feel the same way about it so it may not be bad for you but for me it is and saying all the complains about it for many people that is bad.
“why is it a problem they sell new stuff in the cash shop though?” No problem with that. I never said (nor the subject of this topic) adding content was bad.. removing it is bad.
“I honestly dont get it.” Thats possible. I am sure there are things you dislike and the people who like that don’t get why you dislike that. Question is, would you dislike it if it was nor temporary, if not why complain about it when people don;t want that stuff temporary and if you do not like it when it is not temporary (something I would not get) then the question is, are there more people who dislike it not bing temporary or are there more people who dislike it being temporary. And I do think I know the answer. I think a big group does not care, another big group (smaller but still big) dislikes it to be temporary and a small group likes it temporary.
“Why is it harmful to include these new things in the cash shop? As long as its optional stuff its all good imho.” It’s not. adding stuff is no problem (in that case) but taking it out it. Even if you do not get it and for you it might not be a problem, as you can see for many it is.
“the more successful the cash shop after all the better they can make the game. " How about.. the more successful the game the more cash they can make…?
I prefer that last one.
And it’s exactly what you say now why I do not like it. The focus on the cash shop. Only what you (and the company) names successful is what I would call bad as it has a lot to do with the temporary stuff.
The green you mean? “Celebrate the fall” You know, it’s fall every year. But heey, maybe I was wrong about that. Maybe there gem-store focus has always been bad it has only now become more obvious. Maybe then I still trusted Anet enough that “Celebrate the fall” would mean it came back next year but people lost that trust after seeing many stuff that would not come back for sure.
Halloween is once a year.
“Very few items where added to the cash shop permanently and its most definitely not a recent trend. it was like that from day one.”
Still not sure if it was no recent trend as most of it they added in the beginning was a yearly thing like the color and the Halloween stuff. But the temporary stuff it what I do not like.. It’s the main reason I went for GW2 and not some F2P game because I hate this sort of cash-shop focus. No matter if it is B2W, Temporary or there lock stuff behind it, such a focus it is always bad.
GW2 was released as B2P, with GW1 they showed to manly focus on expansions like you may expect for B2P and that was the main reason I went for GW2.
I will not pay a single cent on gems (I might have but because of there gem-store focus I will not) but I am willing to buy expansions. And even the CE expansions.
The biggest reason for permanent contents:
Casual gamers wouldn’t be forced to play in even’ts peroid, if they have time to explore it in their own speed.“Do it now or never” is a hardcore style. I don’t get it…
Casual players would NEVER catch up. If Anet introduced content and left it there, and you were casual, you’d either do the current stuff or fall further and further behind.
And good luck in six months getting a group together for older dungeons.
It’s no problem to find a group and there is no need for casual players to “catch up” but if they like the MF dungeon or they like the MF mini, or they like the jet-pack they can still do that dungeon / try to get those items.
So there is the choice to go for what you like.
This is really not quite true. In every MMO I’ve ever played it’s hard for people to find groups for old instances. There’s no exception I can think of.
Everyone is at level cap doing the new stuff and the old stuff sits neglected. The older the stuff, the more it’s neglected.
If you don’t think this would happen when a game has updates every couple of weeks, I don’t know how I can convince you.
If there is a reason to farm it (like mini or skin drops) you will surely be able to find 4 other players that also like one of the drops in the dungeon.
And once again some assumptions.
snip…..
2/2
“I know you feel strongly about this but I am sorry I just dont see it. People dont buy skins because they’ll be removed at the end of the month. They buy them because they like them.” You might not see it but like I said many times before it’s the oldest trick in the book. They might buy it if they like it.. when they need it on one of there alts, some day.. But if it’s temporary they need to buy it now if they maybe ever want to use it on one of there alts. They will in both cases not be likely to buy it if they don’t like it but if they do there is a more likely they will buy it if it is now or never. And to top it off. They might now not have the gold to transfer it to gems to buy it but if they have more time they might be able to get the gold to transfer it to gems.. So if they want it now they need to pay with money.
Thats just simply how it works. It’s basic marketing and buy saying thats not how it works you pretty much say that marketing technique (that has be proven to work) does not work.
For your example:
“ If I want 3 fused skins for my warrior I am going to buy enough chests to get those 3 weapons regardless if they disappear this month or are available forever.” Yeah if you want them for your warrior NOW. But what if you don;t have the gold to transfer to gems NOW? And what if you like the shield for your alt guardian but you are not sure yet if you really want to use that shield when you are 80? In those cases the fact that it is temporary might be the reason you will now buy it (with cash). Besides next month there will be a new skin and you might like that better so if you would have more time you might have gone for that skin in stead of the one from this month while now you might go for both.
“Why cant they make permanent content and still sell a different set of skins every month?” That IS permanent content isn’t it? If they sell different set of skins every months then those set’s ARE permanent content.
Once again.. I do not mind temporary events it’s the temporary content like items (your example skins), dungeons and achievements that I do not like. And they work in the same way. Where the temporary achievements and rewards are there to make sure you keep playing (because else you will never be able to complete them anymore) the temporary items in the gem-store are there so you buy them.. And then there is the gold-driven system to buy the money you need.
“Why wouldnt that work in your opinion?” It would work for them.. well because people are not ‘tricked’ in being online to complete the stuff now because they can’t tomorrow there will maybe less people (in the short run.. because in the long run Anet is currently scaring people away) they might sell less but the gem-store trick does still work for those people that are playing. But it’s till temporary content and that is what I was against wasn’t I? And the gem-store is part of the game so then yes it does effect the game. You are still unable to get something afterwards and thats the problem here. Thats why I (and many people) don’t like temporary stuff.
“I dont see how minis or the pickaxe affects the game design in any way so I think I can pass on that.” They affect in a way that they are part of the game. If you like to collect the mini’s or if you like the skin of the pickaxe you are not able to get them anymore.
I don’t have a problem with gem-sales especially when (like in GW2) you can transfer gold to gems. As long as it does not block part of the game, (for example housing) and so far none of the items in the gem-store really do that, thats no problem. Put some nice skins in the gem-store, add some new and I will not complain. Make stuff temporary and here I am.
“Finally and most importantly I think that historically Arenanet have shown they’re willing to sacrifice profit for a better game experience.” I think I don’t even ask this (not sure if there is a big difference between income on gems vs expansions) but I do ask them to stop the temporary stuff.
And once again some assumptions.
snip……
1/2
“I apologize if I wasnt clear, what I tried to say is your seems to be if they continue content releases using the living story model that content will be subpar to an expansion because the design decisions will be focused on maximizing cashshop profit.“
No I don’t say the content will be subpar. I say they will also keep on doing the temporary content to create a sense of urgency. Mainly the temporary stuff in the gem-store but also the temporary rewards, achivements, drops and dungeons.
Next to that it will be possible to have exactly the same content as an expansion could give.. I don;t say it will be just as good and I also don’t say it won’t be so good.
The problem here the the temporary stuff that is there to create a feel or urgency and that needs to go.. Why is that in now? Because thats how they try to get people to buy gems.. How can we get it out.. if they would focus on getting people to buy the expansions in stead on focusing on people buying gems. One way or the other they need to make the money and depending on that there will be marketing tactics behind it to get people o do that. I hate THAT temporary stuff (and like you see, many do) so I prefer expansions.
Do I mind some event that is only one time, and that has no items or achievements link to it? No I don’t. I think it would be good if new players or players who where not there to see it can still see it in a ingame video but thats about it.
It’s the temporary items, dungeons and achievements that I do not like.
And it is not strange people do not like it because it’s build around the idea that people do not like it.. What is it people don’t like about it.. to miss out on it and thats why some people get persuaded to come and play and then also buy the gems.
I will give it as another example.. I would like to have the MF mini and jet-pack (there are available in the TB for insane prices but many items aren’t so for the sage of argument lets say there aren’t as it would also be possible I wanted one of the items that are not in the gem-store) but I can not farm MF again until I have it.. and why? Because Anet needed to create a feel or urgency (by taking them out) so people would play / buy gems because they are focusing on gems in stead on an expansion.
“You feel the reason for temporary content is to instill a sense of urgency in order to drive sales. I do not believe it so, I believe its to drive narrative. More on this below.”
Well I can tell you you are totally wrong. Some events should be temporary for that and I already stated many times before that I have no problem with that. But all the items in the game could easily stay available. No need to take those out to get the drive narrative. The temporary event will bring changes to the event, it would be no problem to link achievement to those changes that have been done and so will stay forever. (Like the achievement with connected to the new jumping puzzle.. you could easily do that with all achievement.. only link them to the part that has changes by the temporary event, not to the temporary thing itself). And for the dungeons you can do exactly the same. You can also build those around the non-temporary stuff. The molten alliance still exist so in stead of saying we need to go in the dungeon to get rid of them we need to get in the dungeon to frustrate there attempts to get to us.
“unless I am misunderstanding you, essentially what you’re saying is I got the facts right (which in a nutshell are you believe that if they finance the game through the gemshop exclusively content quality will suffer due to said content being designed in a way to maximize the cash shop profit rather than game quality) “ Yeah they finance it with the gem-store. Thats indeed a fact when they are not getting money from another source (like expansions). And content will suffer in the way that (for now) it is temporary and I do not like that so yeah for me it does suffer because of that.. Seeing the many complains about it it suffers that way for many.
It’s not an assumption no as it is factually true for me.. You might not mind it being temporary (lets take the MF jet-pack and mini as an example again) and so it might factually not be true for you. The fact that they make part of it temporary purely to create the feel of urgency and so to get people to buy it, is a fact I cannot prove but it’s the oldest trick in the marketing book and like I explained before there is no real other reason to do so, also not to create drive narrative because they can do that with just temporary events without linking items, dungeons and achievements to the temporary part but by linking it to the result (so non-temporary) of that temporary part.
I think as time wears on….. and on, and on, more and more players are starting to see the negatives of the temporary content of the Living Story. And as time wears on Anet will see the faults in their design decisions, as it’s already starting now with the backpedaling we see from dev posts. If they want to keep the majority of their players, their mission statement will change.
Thank you op for your post and insight. Keep up the good fight.
Hmm killcannon…. I just went through the Dev Tracker and also no new articles or blogs.
No one is seeing this “backpedaling” you are referring too. Everything is still pointing to the current direction they are taking this game at the present.The “biggest flaw” most are agreeing upon is Anet needing the writers to present more compelling stories and/or more writers.
I think it’s not correct to blame the writers. I do understand how it looks that way but it has more to do with there task.
Anet is not working on an expansion so focuses on the gem-store. They do that buy putting stuff temporary in the gem-store / game, creating a feel of urgency so people will buy / play it. (Not because people like it, but because if they don’t do / buy it today it will be gone tomorrow (not literally tomorrow.. always seem to have do define such statements on the Internet))
That means that basically all the writes need to do, is create an excuse to put more temporary stuff in the gem-store /game and that is what they do. And they might try to make a bigger better story as a total but in the short run Anet just needs an excuse to put in more temporary stuff to get people to play and buy.
They just do there task.
(edited by Devata.6589)
I think as time wears on….. and on, and on, more and more players are starting to see the negatives of the temporary content of the Living Story. And as time wears on Anet will see the faults in their design decisions, as it’s already starting now with the backpedaling we see from dev posts. If they want to keep the majority of their players, their mission statement will change.
Thank you op for your post and insight. Keep up the good fight.
Thing is this is not a crusade Arenanet are not out to get anyone. They just want to make the best game possible ..
And they try to make money however the way they now try to make money is messing with the possibility to make the best game possible.
And that summarizes the whole issue really.
(edited by Devata.6589)
The biggest reason for permanent contents:
Casual gamers wouldn’t be forced to play in even’ts peroid, if they have time to explore it in their own speed.“Do it now or never” is a hardcore style. I don’t get it…
Casual players would NEVER catch up. If Anet introduced content and left it there, and you were casual, you’d either do the current stuff or fall further and further behind.
And good luck in six months getting a group together for older dungeons.
It’s no problem to find a group and there is no need for casual players to “catch up” but if they like the MF dungeon or they like the MF mini, or they like the jet-pack they can still do that dungeon / try to get those items.
So there is the choice to go for what you like.
There is a big difference between having RMT and focusing on it! Anet was not focusing on it the first few months and if they would focus on expansions there was also no need to focus on it now.
It would be a nice side-income but no need to use aggressive marketing techniques to get people to buy stuff. But now that they have no expansion planned they are focusing on it and that focus is bad as that is a big reason for the temporary nature of a lot of the content.
First off I wanna appologies for replying to you again. I was gonna skip cause I dont want to give you the impression that I am picking on you, seriously I am not its just I really need to ask you what gives you the impression that they started with no Gem store focus and gradually switch around.
I am asking cause honestly in my opinion its the other way round. They started heavily focused on the gem store and gradually got better with a few anomalies in between.
It all started with Halloween, the very first even 1 month after release. In that instances They had 4 really cool weapon skins that there was no way to get hold off apart from buying blc keys. This was also month 1 few people could afford change ingame gold to gems so essentially the only way was to buy gems with real money.
From there it just got better and better. Skins that can be purchased directly, RNG chests that you can get for free by playing the game, Even making sure that if you farm enough you could get the skin even if the rng gods dont smile upon you with the introduction of the scraps in this month’s update that after you collect enough off without getting a gold ticket you could use to get the skins anyway.
So what gives you the impression thakittens been getting worst from where you’re siting?
The gold-driven part has always been there however at release they said it was possible to farm and really it was however, more and more ways to farm (and then I am talking about mats) have been reduced so gold became more and more important.
Sure, Halloween had the gem-store mini’s and skins but Halloween is a returning event so you should be able to still do it next year. No temporary stuff there. South Sun did bring us the chest but except for a mini there still was not a big focus on it and there still weren’t a lot of new items in the gem-store. Then Winters-day what is once again a yearly returning event so it’s not temporary. after that we begone to see more and more temporary stuff with ticket, mini’s, unlimited crafting items, RNG boxes and the temporary dungeons with achievements and rare drops.. Stuff you can never get anymore.. well you can buy it from trading-post costing you a lot of money what you can buy with gems.
By now it’s nearly impossible to far mats and there are maybe 2 ways to farm gold. CoF P1 and WvW mindless zerging. We already have a big list of items that you can not get anymore because they where temporary and they just announced they will start working on releasing new content every two weeks so they have every 2 week a new reason to put um temporary items.
Also have a look at news-screen when you start up guild-wars. How often do you not see “Special New Items in the Gem Store!”. I still remember post from the beginning where people ask for more items in the gem-store (Thats something else as asking for a gem-store focus btw)
Have a look here: https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/page/30/ and go up checking the news about the gem-store. First 5 pages have almost nothing. After that there are additions but mostly all non-temporary (stuff that is also today still in) with the exception of the consortium box. Other news about the gem-store are sales and stuff like winters-day but like I said thats a returning event.
If you go to the last pages you will see it’s for a big part about temporary items.
I think the biggest assumption is made by you making the assumption that people are making these assumptions. snip..
But they are assumptions on either side btw I am not saying those against are making assumptions while the ones in favor are not.
The only difference is we’re trusting what anet are saying you dont seem to be.
You’re basing all your reason around the central concept that no matter what they do it will be entirely designed around the cash shop which will lead to lower quality. That alone carries a number of assumptions that 1. the cash shop stake holder has ultimate say on what happens 2. That arenanet have no forsight 3. that arenanet cannot deliver what they promise / promises are lies.
………
And once again some assumptions.
First of all.. I do not reason around the central concept that no matter what they do it will be entirely designed around the cash shop which will lead to lower quality. If I was I would not be here asking for a expansion pack focus. If I did reason that way I would not be here wasting my time asking for that.
I think if enough people complain about it, they might change it and many people are already complaining about the temporary content what can be linked to there current gem-store focus.
About the “cash shop people”. That are the financial people behind the game, and they will, together with the marketing people design tactics to get people to buy gems. The most striking at this point is the creation of the feel of urgency to buy stuff. Thats one, another option is limiting the possibilities of the game of the P2W concept. They combined the feel of urgency tactic with RNG boxes to try to get people to buy even more but even without the RNG the temporary stuff is still bad.
But you almost seem to talk about it like I am talking about some hypothetical possibility that Anet might ever do. But it’s not a hypothetical possibility because it’s already in the game.
1 Still not getting it.. It’s not only about the content you might or might not miss without expansion. I am sure they can make the same content if they deliver it with the living story or with an expansion. But you said cash shop people don’t dictate, but the money does. And if we get it as expansions they can get the money from expansions but if we get it with the living story it has to be paid by the gem-store meaning you get more of a F2P concept where there is a focus on the gem-store and that will make for bad decisions.. No assumptions there as those bad decisions are already in the game. There is a reason why many of the GW2 players went for a B2P game in stead of a F2P game and this sort of decisions are that reason.
2 No thats not my issue. Thats the assumption you already made at point 1 and also made in your first post and even after I already said thats not the reason you still seem to be making that assumption. The rest of what you say at 2 is all about that false assumption so no need to talk about that as I already did so at 1.
However I do like how you make a incorrect assumption and base two more assumptions on that about why I would think that way.
“So essentially your issue is the assumption that if they plan to monetize the game through cash shop they can’t produce any good content.”
No I, know that if they plan to monetize the game through cash shop they need to try and get people to buy gems. Thats no assumption thats a fact. And I do believe the way to do that is bad for the game.. That is a meaning.. but many people seem to agree (and in a way thats makes it correct because it’s not good for the game if many people feel that way). And like said before.. It’s not that I purely base my idea’s on the idea that it will be bad but it’s already in the game and it is already bad.. All the temporary stuff (items, skins, rewards, achievements, dungeons). So once again, no assumptions there.. The only assumption that I might be making that they will never be able to get a cash-shop focus without it being bad for the game.. mind.. bad for the game is an opinion.. but as you can see on the forum, shared by many.
But to summarize it. You made a long comment and I appreciate that you took the time to do that but is was all based on the false assumption that I am against the living story (what I am not btw) because I think they will not be able to release the same amount of content as in an expansion. But thats not what I think nor was it my point.
There are a lot of assumptions being made here:
1. There will NEVER be expansions, even though the wording in the interview is “we’re not thinking about it right now.”
2. ALL Living Story content will be the exact same in volume.
3. There will not be any safeguards or procedures to insure quality of new content, including the devs playing their own game.
4. The Living Story content teams will only and always take only two weeks to make content, and that ANet doesn’t have a rotating schedule.
5. Living Story content is the ONLY new content that has ever or will ever be developed.
Now, I know the internet is a great place to panic, but seriously, folks, let’s think this through. Do ANY of those above assumptions sound reasonable?
I think the biggest assumption is made by you making the assumption that people are making these assumptions.
The problem is that if there is no focus on expansion (now) that results in some problems.. for me the focus on the gem-store that results is bad decisions for the game, like the temporary content so many people are complaining about.
To take your 5 assumption.
1 It would not matter.. for now the problem is there and I hope that if many people complain about it there will be a change of focus.. If everybody here believed there is no change it will change many of them will not be here to talk about it but might have already left the game.
2 Would not change a bid about my problem with the non-focus on expansions and also not for most people problem they have with it.
3 Is basically the same as 2
4 Once again.. Would not change a bid about my problem with the non-focus on expansions.
5 Nobody is saying that.. Anet even said they are also working on other stuff but once again it would not change a bid about my problem with the non-focus on expansions.
Im casual..in that I have only 2-3 hours to play per night, but take my toon, gear, class, experience serious enough where I want to do well.
And i hate living story. Innovative but its doing squat to further this game. Very stagnat right now.
would it be better if instead we had none of the living story and ended up waiting for an expansion for over a year? Expansions content will come any way, whether living story is there or not.
Please refer to this thread for that debate
I did not say that expansion will come, I said that the expansions content will come. As in we’re going to get the continuation of the main story for free.
Is NCSOFT a non-commercial company? Is ArenaNet a non-commercial company? Are the employee’s all working for free? No so there is no such thing as free. It has to come from some place and if it’s not coming from expansions it’s coming from gems and if it comes from gems they need to some how get people to buy gems and there we see the main reason for temporary content.. Create a sense of urgency to get people to buy things. First rule in every marketing book.
You know I’ve heard people use that argument for years now for poor business decisions and it gets very old quickly. Plenty of other well planned great games have been developed for a long long time now all using the non-sub free to play gaming options that don’t charge for cosmetics and that actually provide solo experience for their past content.
I would name one that just recently went F2P to offer a great example where the devs there implemented while a sub and now while a F2P game systems in the game that don’t require a credit/gem purchase for every single patch like we’re seeing here in this game and they’ve been highly successful and have doubled their sales overnight.
So saying that it’s a great business plan to exploit the playerbase like they are doing by creating 1 time content that one will later only have the option of playing with a forced group in a fractal just to see the content or seeing cosmetics only in the game once forcing the sense of urgency to login much like the sub only games used to do with reputation grinds is definitely not the right way to go and will not endear the public to you as a developer.
Time and time again when the developers have been the most successful in this model of billing is when they’ve given the players what they want to earn for free just by non-grind gameplay while simultaneously offering items for store purchase that can otherwise be obtained thru a very small amount of work. (say 1 months time) History speaks for itself on this.
I’m curious what game you are referencing, because some of what you are saying could make for a good argument unless the game(s) you are talking about have never proven to be successful in the long term.
I honestly can’t think of any F2P/B2P game (that was F2P/B2P from the get-go) that doesn’t have RMT that has made it passed 5 years so to say other games have done different things with a F2P/B2P and have been successful in the long run is a hard claim for me to believe, simply because how the heck would they make any money! I’ll admit I don’t know everything.
…..Not yet, anyway…..
There is a big difference between having RMT and focusing on it! Anet was not focusing on it (mainly the gem-store.. RMT being part of that) the first few months and if they would focus on expansions there was also no need to focus on it now.
The gem-store would be a nice side-income but no need to use aggressive marketing techniques to get people to buy stuff. But now that they have no expansion planned they are focusing on it and that focus is bad as that is a big reason for the temporary nature of a lot of the content / RNG boxes.
(edited by Devata.6589)
Im casual..in that I have only 2-3 hours to play per night, but take my toon, gear, class, experience serious enough where I want to do well.
And i hate living story. Innovative but its doing squat to further this game. Very stagnat right now.
would it be better if instead we had none of the living story and ended up waiting for an expansion for over a year? Expansions content will come any way, whether living story is there or not.
Please refer to this thread for that debate
I did not say that expansion will come, I said that the expansions content will come. As in we’re going to get the continuation of the main story for free.
Is NCSOFT a non-commercial company? Is ArenaNet a non-commercial company? Are the employee’s all working for free? No so there is no such thing as free. It has to come from some place and if it’s not coming from expansions it’s coming from gems and if it comes from gems they need to some how get people to buy gems and there we see the main reason for temporary content.. Create a sense of urgency to get people to buy things. First rule in every marketing book.
You know I’ve heard people use that argument for years now for poor business decisions and it gets very old quickly. Plenty of other well planned great games have been developed for a long long time now all using the non-sub free to play gaming options that don’t charge for cosmetics and that actually provide solo experience for their past content.
I would name one that just recently went F2P to offer a great example where the devs there implemented while a sub and now while a F2P game systems in the game that don’t require a credit/gem purchase for every single patch like we’re seeing here in this game and they’ve been highly successful and have doubled their sales overnight.
So saying that it’s a great business plan to exploit the playerbase like they are doing by creating 1 time content that one will later only have the option of playing with a forced group in a fractal just to see the content or seeing cosmetics only in the game once forcing the sense of urgency to login much like the sub only games used to do with reputation grinds is definitely not the right way to go and will not endear the public to you as a developer.
Time and time again when the developers have been the most successful in this model of billing is when they’ve given the players what they want to earn for free just by non-grind gameplay while simultaneously offering items for store purchase that can otherwise be obtained thru a very small amount of work. (say 1 months time) History speaks for itself on this.
Wait.. you think I am saying it’s a great business plan? Well then you are completely wrong. I say it’s extremely bad (for the game, and so in the long run also for the business), I just try to explain why they are doing it. And I explain that because thats also why I prefer a expansion focus in stead of a gem-store focus. To avoid this sort of behavior.
You say there are also good F2P solutions but personally I do not trust them so much because you almost always will see this sort of bad behavior.
With the exception if the world would be a modern world because you could then pay it with ingame adds just like you do also see them in the real world. But in this sort of games they need to make money and if they need the money with gems they will try to get people to buy gems and that will result in bas decisions. Being it creating a feel or urgency or making it P2W.. I personally do not trust them and even if it would be possible Anet showed how they do it (create feel or urgency) and I do not like there option.