How would increasing Life Force make this any more viable offensively?
It wouldn’t. The defense is the problem with the build, though.
Why? Why should area lifesteal be brought in line with single target and have very little, if any variation? Area lifesteal requires multiple foes, and multiple foes means more incoming damage. No ICD is a self-built scaling mechanic, which Necro sorely needs.
Please explain this to me.
Well of Suffering against 5 enemies will pulse 7 times, allowing it to proc each siphon 35 times against 5 targets, and it can proc 3 siphons. Meaning each cast of WoS can proc 105 siphons, 70 instances of V/VP. As long as that is true, no other build will ever be able to access life steal, because it will always be balanced around the builds that can theoretically proc hundreds of life steals per skill use. So sure, we can buff siphoning until it is good enough for D/WH 4 wells build, but it will never be good on any other build because for it to be strong for them it would be OP on D/WH 4 wells.
Vampiric Rituals doesn’t need it and it can scale with enemies sure. But allowing Necro to potentially proc V/VP dozens of times per seconds in spikes means it will never be balanced for any build that can’t match those proc times. Having an ICD allows for even a staff build to benefit equally from V/VP.
And to do so requires:
6 trait points spent for the effect
All Major traits in that line
Very high investment in Precision (or at least crit chance, and it can’t be in death shroud).
5 enemies in the area who are throwing damage right back
Since the Well hits 6 times (not 7), it can only proc 90 times absolute maximum. With all 6 pulses critting, it’s only 18 procs on a single target. You can get “burst” siphons this way, but the average is still not that high and is no different than things like Selfless Daring providing small bursts of healing.
Again, why should AoE siphon ability be limited? Seems like those potentials (if made stronger) are very much in line power-wise given the investment it takes.
Necros lack scaling defense, so scaling sustain needs to substitute. ICD’s kill that entirely.
EDIT: Also edited the OP to reflect Well of Suffering hitting 6 times instead of the 5 every other well does.
(edited by Drarnor Kunoram.5180)
Traveller’s Runes are pretty good all around. Strength, Melandru, Scholar, and Pack are all great runesets for Power necro. Melandru is less useful in PvE, but can be very helpful in WvW.
Which is why there needs to be more thought when reworking things like DS mechanics and life steals, to keep barely viable builds from becoming crazy OP due to oversights. To balance one end of life steals (normal single target hits), you sort of have to nerf the other (area/channel hits) and bring them closer together. That’s done through a much bigger life steal with an ICD. The downside is that one big life steal per second adds counter play issues. To enemy players, life steals may feel like an un-removable burning effect (“cough” Dhuumfire on steroids).
Why? Why should area lifesteal be brought in line with single target and have very little, if any variation? Area lifesteal requires multiple foes, and multiple foes means more incoming damage. No ICD is a self-built scaling mechanic, which Necro sorely needs.
Please explain this to me.
Also, I realized I goofed a bit with my OP in the thread. Will be editing it. Analysis is still accurate, so no worries there. However, for single target, highest proc amounts actually come from axe, not dagger. I’ll work out a new analysis for axe siphoning and post it here.
Also, average procs/second from max investment (with dagger mainhand) is 3.06. Not sure how I calculated 1.7 before. In typical combat, expect that to drop to 2-2.kittens/second. Still a value that can be balanced around and currently isn’t.
(edited by Drarnor Kunoram.5180)
Edit: On the gating issue. If life steal is not gated and normalized, then builds that abuse constant area hits and sustain may become too too powerful in their regen and with very little vampiric trait investment (essentially just vampiric).
When going for max procs, you get 1.7 procs/second against a single target. Area hits mean more enemies, meaning more incoming damage to counteract any healing. Also, this sustain has much more counterplay. Poison works just as well as on the rest of the regen builds in the game, but so do blinds, blocks, dodges, invulnerabilities, and simply kiting or hard CC.
When you get into an actual combat situation, the average drops to ~1-1.2 prcos/second for Vampiric. That’s a very easy number to balance around.
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I wouldn’t mind a bone wall skill that just body-blocks attacks (preferably with a 1/4 second or shorter cast), but I really would prefer Corrosive Poison Cloud gets projectile destruction.
I like that idea too!
If that’s really what you believe than I honestly don’t understand why you are so much against ally healing through DS.
And I don’t understand why you would allow regen applied by allies, but no other healing skills.
Unrestricted healing combined with death shroud’s uptime is far too likely to be overwhelming. That’s the problem with health being the sole defense of the profession: it’s too little or too much, with a very, very thin line between.
Full healing in death shroud is a good end goal, but if the balance line gets crossed before we reach it, then we should stop there.
Still think vamp traits should be the only source of healing allowed through DS?
Never did. Always argued for all self-healing traits (vamp traits, parasitic bond, parasitic contagion) and the Regeneration boon as a start.
Even if you have all that combined (which wouldn’t be a viable build anyway) it’d be far from enough to sustain yourself in a meaningful way.
Hence “as a start.” Honestly, Necro sustain issues will never be totally solved as long as health is the only defense we have.
Just needs to give more LF
Preferably some life force not reliant on conditions.
Still think vamp traits should be the only source of healing allowed through DS?
Never did. Always argued for all self-healing traits (vamp traits, parasitic bond, parasitic contagion) and the Regeneration boon as a start.
I still disagree with needing an ICD to properly balance siphon traits. The gating is already inherent by cast times and, with the numbers I mentioned, average hits/second when trying to maximize procs is 1.7 hits/second. A nice number to balance them around: figure that Vampiric procs 1.7 times/second in an ideal situation. In real combat, that average probably drops to 1/second for a focused build. Balance around that.
Thanks for the analysis. I do use some of the traits at times, so its useful to see how the math works out. I use them as much for the damage boost as for the healing, which is slightly higher than the figures you came up with.
Actually, damage numbers are identical to the healing values in my calculations.
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The worst part was during the first October where they had Flux effects in PvP. You load into a PvP outpost only to have bone horrors start attacking you. You couldn’t fight back, because you were in an outpost. When you inevitably died, a new minion would be born to continue the assault on other innocent players.
All because someone got Dhuumbanned.
Is there any extra value in the way that siphons can be used concurrently with regeneration? Sort of like that one ranger build that used regeneration + troll unguent + a signet to have fairly consistent healing over time, with significantly higher intensity than regeneration alone?
Not really, because to get consistent Regeneration, you have to give up the fast-hitting skills that best utilize siphons due to camping staff.
Or use Unholy Sanctuary, which doesn’t work with siphons at all.
ANet has stated that there will be a large number of changes to existing traits for HoT.
I can’t really answer #1. I’m curious as to why those who do have Necros on their teams picked them, since there has to be a specific reason.
2. Realistically, new skills need to come along to give Necros some defense that isn’t just health. More health doesn’t help the necro deal with focus fire, it just makes it more annoying to deal with 1v1. Some traits could be altered to aid the Necro better, though. For example, if Foot in the Grave made Death Shroud a stunbreak on entering, it would go a long way (since Necros have the longest cooldown stunbreaks of any profession).
3. Spectral Armor/walk and hop into death shroud while hoping you can leave the area. All you can do. Alternatively, sac your flesh wurm, if you had it set up and hope they don’t teleport after you.
But what if we increase the number of training golems (because that is the only thing that would stand there) that we are hitting to two or more?
Well, in that case, we get no additional benefit from Life Siphon. In a true scenario, you would still want to be using Life Siphon because it alone is providing more healing than all of your traits combined (16,416 over a minute with the same build), but since we are only worried about the traits proccing, we will actually drop it from the rotation entirely, since doubled dagger auto h/sc is higher than Life Siphon’s. This means 6.6 more dagger autos for a total of 27 cycles.
Thus, we have 72 hits with Locust Swarm (5148 total), 216 hits with dagger auto (15444 total), 20 hits with Well of Suffering (3372 total), 20 hits with Well of Corruption (3372 total), and 20 hits with Well of Darkness (2486 total) for a total of
29822 health/minute, or 497.03 health/second. Not terrible, but only works on two training golems and requires waaaay more investment than anything else that gives similar healing/second.
We up it to 3 targets and our optimal proc rotations don’t change. However, dagger auto has hit its cap. The gain here is much smaller than before. 108 hits with Locust Swarm (7722 total), 216 dagger auto hits (15444 total), 30 Well of Suffering (5058 total), 30 hits with Well of Corruption (5058 total), 30 hits with Well of Darkness (3729 total). Against 3 targets in the perfect situation, we get 37011 health/minute, or 616.85 health/second Each target beyond the second will add the same amount (until the 5 target limit is reached): 119.82 health/second.
Again, all numbers I presented are the absolute perfect situation where your target does absolutely nothing to try and prevent being hit. They also all turn off if you enter death shroud for any reason. It also does not take into account aftercast delays on anything but dagger auto, so actual numbers are lower.
It is also worth noting that this is a massive investment, requiring 10 trait points and 4 major traits to pull off. Also precludes most utility.
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I decided to do a breakdown for the siphoning traits to show primarily how bad of shape they are in. Lots of math ahead, so fair warning.
First, the parameters of the breakdown. I used this build. I decided to first take the skills in the build and calculate the hits-per-second of cast. So, Life Siphon, for example, hits 9 times in 3.5 seconds of casting for 2.57 h/sc.
In order from highest to lowest:
Locust Swarm: 30 h/sc
Life Siphon: 2.57 h/sc
dagger auto chain: 1.9 h/sc
Well of Suffering: 24 h/sc
Well of Corruption: 24 h/sc
Well of Darkness: 24 h/sc
The three wells, of course, are there to take advantage of Vampiric Rituals.
So, let’s break it down over a minute against a single, unavoiding target. The h/sc breakdown is important, as that helps us determine how much we can proc those traits. Fractions of a proc will be dropped to compensate for aftercasts.
Each trait heals the following amount per-proc (identical damage dealt):
Vampiric: 44
Vampiric Precision: 55
Vampiric Rituals: 69
Since Locust Swarm has the highest h/sc, we want to use it as much as possible. Thus, it starts the rotation. It also takes priority over other skills if they are off cooldown simultaneously. Given the 24.5 second cycle, we can get 2.45 cycles in per minute , with casts at the 0, 25, and 49.5 marks. This means the third locust swarm gets 6 ticks. for a total of 36. Thus, Locust Swarm will siphon an average of 2574 health/minute.
For the rest, no order is important, as re-arranging them does not alter the total procs/minute. Life Siphon is next. Starting at the .5 second mark, we want to use it every 15.5 seconds. This means we can manage to get 4 casts of Life Siphon in one minute (the last one starting at the 50 second mark, since it has to start after Locust Swarm’s 49.5 cast). Life Siphon thus delivers 36 hits/minute as well, siphoning an average of 2574 health/minute (not counting its own effect).
Now on to the wells. While the dagger auto is higher, it doesn’t proc Vampiric Rituals. I will do a second comparison leaving the wells out later.
Well of Suffering, due to shortest recharge, is the primary well cast. Cast first at the 4 second mark, it gets cast twice in the minute (second time at the 39.25 second mark), hitting 12 times with an average of 6 crits. Thus, it siphons 1686 health/minute
Well of Corruption also gets cast twice, at the 4.25 second mark and the 44.5 second mark. Siphons are identical to well of suffering (1686 health/minute).
Well of Darkness cannot crit, but gets cast at the 4.5 second mark and the 54.75 second mark. It siphons 1243 health/minute.
The rest of the time is made up of dagger auto attacks. Given the cycle time of the chain is 2.1 seconds, and we spend 17 seconds casting other skills in a minute, we get off 20.4 chains, or 82 hits/minute. This siphons 5863 health/minute.
Big numbers. A bit surprising that, in one minute, we siphon 15,626 health from a single target. This breaks down to 260.43 health/second. Which is just barely more than Regeneration at the same healing power gives (251 health/second).
That’s right. Perfect use of every siphon trait with mainhand dagger we have results in just barely more healing/second than just sitting on Staff spamming Mark of Blood on cooldown. And spamming Mark of Blood takes a lot less investment while not caring if the enemy blocks, blinds, or dodges.
(edited by Drarnor Kunoram.5180)
I really do think Life Siphon should be changed in some way. It just feels really, really clunky. And that extra 2k HP almost never saves my kitten , because meanwhile it leaves me open for damage.
As for skill #3, it just needs a CD reduction.
2682 base heal with 0 healing power. 6/2/0/0/6 with Zerk amulet has 151 healing power before runes, which means 2790 heal. Considering it’s every 15 seconds (including cast), it’s pretty good healing (180 healing/second)
even if it was only 120HP/s, thats still better than engineers backpack regenerator at the same trait point cost. and on top of that, it does not only heal but also damage, and the amounts double when hitting two targets instead of one. count in the sigil of blood for another ~100hp/s and life siphon ~400hp/s and your consume conditions heal ~200hp/s and youre well above a warriors hp/s even without using your consume conditions. it does add up alot and makes for very good self sustain. because the siphon has no internal cooldown, you can burst heal alot.
No, not “the same trait point cost.” That is every siphoning trait combined. I’ll be doing a breakdown later, but my initial calculations show the average healing/second with massive investment into siphon traits and stats ends up at ~115 healing/second.
Yes. Maximum investment into siphoning traits yields less healing/second than 0 healing power Regeneration.
(edited by Drarnor Kunoram.5180)
Really? An average of 120 health/second lets you trade blows with a Zerker warrior? I doubt it.
Siphoning skills are pretty good. Siphoning traits are horridly ineffective.
The total HPS is much higher than 120. The warrior only has the healing signet and maybe some regeneration boon. Necro has a big heal (consume conditions), regeneration and lifesteal.
I’m not saying you can outheal the warriors damage, but you gain enough healing throughout the fight that you can keep up your DPS and bring the warrior down before you go down. It’s all about the actual DPS uptime in the fight, not about big hits or DPS on a target golem. And lifesteal helps a ton with DPS uptime. Just like warriors Healing signet helps with their DPS uptime while other classes have to pause DPS to heal or stealth or whatever.
From siphon traits, 120 HP/S is about as good as you can expect, unfortunately. If you go all out in Zealot’s gear and full siphon traits, probably up to 200 if your opponent isn’t avoiding your attacks.
Again, siphoning traits are awful. Siphoning skills are good. Life Siphon untraited and with 0 healing power (and most dagger builds have healing power, even if it’s just from the Spite minor) is 173 HP/Second if you cast it on cooldown. Add Bloodthirst and that jumps to a minimum of 213.67 HP/second in the same situation.
Mainhand dagger is better designed than most weapons. You don’t want to use skills 2 and 3 on cooldown, which is better design than a number of other weapons in the game. Each skill has a use, and they’re pretty good for said use. But the uses for 2 and 3 aren’t ones you necessarily want to spam whenever.
really? i think life siphon could use another skill in its place. Only time i cast it is when closing range in pvp but, then, it only ticks once at best. Useless skill.
Quick question: do you find your sustain to be lacking?
no.
And, if i do, then life siphon doesn’t save the day. Typically, when i am out of heals casting life sihpon is the last thing i do before dying.
Try casting Life Siphon first instead of your heal first. You can delay hitting “6” a long time by using Life Siphon liberally.
I’m not too sure. I’ve got a feeling, for example, that Target the Weak will function just fine against targets with Resistance because it just checks for the presence of said conditions. I imagine Terror will work similarly.
Really? An average of 120 health/second lets you trade blows with a Zerker warrior? I doubt it.
Siphoning skills are pretty good. Siphoning traits are horridly ineffective.
Dulfy is a great place to check for black lion skins for how they look in-game.
Its not a buff it just improves how conditions work. I could explain but I cba. The average case is unchanged.
This is correct. It’s a buff in terms of consistency. But it’s actually a very slight nerf for necromancers that knew how to line up fears to get an extra tick of Terror.
Not really. It’s overall a buff for every terrormancer, because you will still get that tick. Every other necro will as well, that the only difference. As a thief/mesmer, I’m sad that every thief/mesmer can now port to the upper ledge on Niflhel without standing on this narrow spot on the stairs where it used to work. But at least sw2 (thief) and sw3 (mesmer) work there now, so I won’t complain.
Fear was unaffected by the change because the condition causes no damage. The Terror trait does.
shadow scepter and dagger look nice, but the gs is like 33% hilt. Not too hot on it.
Having tested the skin on my Ranger, it actually looks better when wielded. The preview doesn’t do it justice.
You can also wield the weapon in preview, or do you mean there’s a difference in looks between the preview-window and in-game?
A bit of a difference. The blade is longer in-game and the wielding pose is correct. Especially a thing for two-handers like greatswords.
Mainhand dagger is better designed than most weapons. You don’t want to use skills 2 and 3 on cooldown, which is better design than a number of other weapons in the game. Each skill has a use, and they’re pretty good for said use. But the uses for 2 and 3 aren’t ones you necessarily want to spam whenever.
really? i think life siphon could use another skill in its place. Only time i cast it is when closing range in pvp but, then, it only ticks once at best. Useless skill.
Quick question: do you find your sustain to be lacking?
shadow scepter and dagger look nice, but the gs is like 33% hilt. Not too hot on it.
Having tested the skin on my Ranger, it actually looks better when wielded. The preview doesn’t do it justice.
What risks did they take on the Necro recently? All they did in the last patch was fix bugs for the profession.
I think this whole thread unfortunately got sidelined a bit. So to those advertising buffing blood magic and death magic trait lines: what specifically would you do?
Step 1: make the siphoning traits, Parasitic Bond, and Parasitic Contagion all heal the Necro through death shroud. Parasitic Contagion doesn’t help Blood magic at all, but it needs to happen for consistency. Also, Regeneration should function through Death Shroud.
Then specifics to lines:
Blood Magic
- Merge Vampiric Rituals into Ritual Master at master level. Ritual Master is weak for a Master trait (only being cooldown reduction) and Vampiric Rituals is likewise weak. The combination would be suitable and open up a Grandmaster slot for something useful.
- Increase the siphon amount of each siphon trait. Not by much, necessarily, but rebalancing them around the average situation, not the “when the planets align and you have 5 foes standing still in melee for 15 seconds” situation.
Death Magic
- adding boons to the boon duration line. Ritual of Protection could have wells pulse Protection instead of just granting it at-cast. Dark Armor could be changed to “when disabled, gain Stability (1 stack, 3 second duration).” This would help prevent chain-stunning, but wouldn’t prevent the initial disable. Plus, further investment into the line would help improve the trait.
- Trashing Necromantic Corruption and creating a new grandmaster.
I wouldn’t say he knows nothing about it, he just has a different perspective. The topic is the same: the change to Lich Form. Sure, as a Necro, it’s easy to say it has been nerfed, but if fighting against it has become more difficult, well, has it been nerfed?
Outsider perspective is important.
Well in group pvp only those classes are viable, that are useful. Noone would bother for example to pick up a thief who is usind soldier’s: sure, it has great survivability, but is otherwise rather useless because of the lacking burst.
So imagine just buffing necro survivability. It still lacks the support of the cele classes, while doing not much more condition pressure than say a cele engi using grenades.
The only (potentially) saving grace are the abilities to corrupt boons and transfer conditions (condi CLEANSES are in fact much better on other classes). These are potentially very useful, but in my view currently simply far too weak. Compare the few boon corruptions necros currently have for example to boon removal that mesmers bring (the latter is btw the main reason why mesmers are still sometimes taken over thieves).
Theives can remove boons as well, in fact both necros and theives have a distinct advantage agaisnt boon heavy classes, necros can corrupt them not just remove, as well as remove for extra damage. Theives can steal the kittening boons. Try again.
Its clear you are new to pvp and that’s fine we always need more pvpers. But your opinions don’t hold much weight at the moment.
Thieves can remove (indeed steal and grant to their allies) 2 boons from one target every 20 seconds. You can also remove (and steal) one boon with sword 3, this is however situational and requires a setup.
With the first shatter skill ALONE, mesmers can remove 4 boons IN AN AOE every 11 seconds. There is currently quite some discussion among mesmers concerning the fact that thieves counter and to a large extent replace mesmers. The (vastly superior) boon removal of mesmers in one of the few points in their favor.
Finally, a little piece of advice. To appear superior by being condescending hardly ever works. The fact that you are being so blatant is not helping either.
I’m actually not trying to act superior but clearly alot of us have a better understanding of this games pvp mechanics than you, I assumed it was because you were new out of kindness. If I thought you were experience and still thought some of the things you have said recently I would be much harsher.
Let me then kindly point out to you that your perceived superior understanding of the mechanics seems to be based entirely on the fact that you claim that something I wrote is wrong, which it as I just pointed out is not.
That is your OPINION.
That mesmers have far superior boon removal compared to thieves is a FACT which will only take you about a minute to doublecheck on the wiki.
Not really. Quantity versus Quality, here. Thief boonripping steals some of the most important boons, namely Stability. Mesmer boon removal does not. A thief can guarantee a target doesn’t keep stability on demand.
Can a mesmer remove more boons? Yes. Is it better boon removal? Frequently, no. Plus, the Thief gets those boons instead, making their quality of removal even higher.
In his post he does not directly suggest to have a scaling DS, this much I know already, he simply states the weaknesses of the mechanic and I’ve assumed that he was suggesting to buff DS.
I believe I have used the wrong tone and for that I apologise…but my point remains.
The DS mechanic is fine as it is, the necro is more than capable when we talk about dmg mitigation
No, he never suggests such a thing. Stating a fact does not insinuate a suggestion.
I do agree that Death Shroud is almost fine (still need some healing through it) as a defensive mechanic. However, it is not, and never will be good enough to function in lieu of blocks/evades/invulnerabilities. Not without a complete overhaul to how it works.
I don’t want Necros to be able to escape from fights that they can’t already leave. They are practitioners of Aggression magic, after all. What they need though, is staying power.
Probably because it’s the trait dealing damage, not the condition.
By that logic terror will damage even with resistance and I don’t think they will miss that one.
Probably not, but we can hope!
GhOst, rein it in. There is no need to be hostile.
Probably because it’s the trait dealing damage, not the condition.
if necro was so weak i wouldnt be bumping into 3 necro teams over and over , at this point they making thief look bad .
It’s a Necromancer Win daily today.
Your impression is pretty much spot on. Necros are fairly friendly for new players due to their inherent durability (all necro specs are durable) and strong self-sufficiency.
Although Necros aren’t really wanted in dungeons, because they don’t bring group support , nor impressive damage, they are still quite competent and I would argue are quite good for PUG groups due to not needing much support to do well.
Now, in PvP formats where CC is vastly more prevalent, this is another story. Staying healthy isn’t something a Necro needs a ton of assistance with, it’s doing anything at all because the profession is the easiest to stunlock.
Both of you chill. You disagree, but that is no reason to insult each other.
The Necro forum has been very civil until the last couple of days. I’d appreciate it if it could return to that state.
Hope you have an ally nearby. Basically all you can do.
What would happen to this game if necros would gain the ability to hugely mitigate focus fire with death shroud? Not the community or the devs want to know, the latter are well aware of what would happen to the game if necro would gain a powered up version of DS.
Worst of all, you suggest to have a scaling death shroud. You want this mechanic to get stronger as the number of enemies increase……sorry bro, are you 100% certain about what you’re asking?
First of all, can you explain what you mean for focus fire?
There is no meta build in the game that survive a huge amount of time when heavily focused by more than 1 playerWhat you’re really talking about is dmg avoidance that some professions possess( ele, warrior, thief, guardian, engi), they’re able to quickly move out of combat to lose focus; here I can say " yes necro do lack in the dmg avoidance department".
The necro is more than fine in the in-combat survivability department, for a class that does not need healing power or high toughness, the necro does more than fine in mitigating dmg. What necro needs need are ways to get of trouble when things get hot and I fully agree about this.
Your suggestion: a scaling DS, would transform the necro in a super bunker, something that can absorb dmg incoming from multiple sources…that would be silly, sorry to say that.
And this is where you prove you don’t know what you are talking about.
At no point has Bhawb ever suggested that Death Shroud scale with number of enemies. You literally attack an idea that nobody suggested. Kinda shoots your credibility in the foot. And the other foot and opposite hand as well.
Mainhand dagger is better designed than most weapons. You don’t want to use skills 2 and 3 on cooldown, which is better design than a number of other weapons in the game. Each skill has a use, and they’re pretty good for said use. But the uses for 2 and 3 aren’t ones you necessarily want to spam whenever.
Dark Pact could probably use either a cast time or cooldown reduction, though.
I seriously never use the #2 skill in pvp. Whenever I actually do end up pressing it, is when my life force is empty, all other skills and weapon-swap is on CD and the enemy is running away and just out of reach of my autoattack. Which barely ever happens- Am I doing something wrong? Lol
Nope that’s pretty much when you use it.
I use it a lot when I’m trying to fight on point (when death shroud is on cooldown) and I don’t need my staff skills at the moment. My playstyle is more of a “contest the point” one, so topping off health frequently is more important than high damage output. I don’t like swapping to staff unless I need one of those skills simply because Staff is a fairly lousy weapon to sit on for a while.
Life Siphon now is strong enough to act basically as a second Heal skill. If I find I need health, I pop that instead of Consume Conditions, letting me save my actual heal for a buttload of conditions. You don’t use it for damage (unless they are out of range for auto), but rather to save your actual heal.
Has there been any progress on finding profession specialists?
You must be pretty new around here then.
The question the majority of people were asking was pretty justified. Basically, “Why pick someone that has shown so little interest in WvW to be it’s forum specialist when there are so many others that are more qualified for the position.”Most people weren’t bashing marmatt for taking the job they just questioned the decision on anet’s part. The concern was that the specialist would quickly lose interest and we would be left without communication once again, which appears to be the situation we are in right now.
And the answer was pretty simple: he applied, and those “more qualified” didn’t. Can’t hire someone who doesn’t apply or show interest for the job in the real world, can’t do it on the forums either.
Ever asked yourself why there is so much condi removal in the current meta?
Let me give you my opinion : aoe ranged condi application, would the necro be forced at mele to apply conditons to a single target then I’d say “Ok you’re right”; but we all know that unless you fill your bar with condi removal..your entire team get demolished in no time.
Am I wrong? Then fnd me a single team that use builds sporting just a couple of condi removal each
Counterpoint: most condition cleanse is AoE.
You want to bring some condition cleanses to deal with Immobilize (necros don’t have a lot) and poison (necros do have a lot). The reason why AoE condition removal is so prevalent is because most condition removal happens to be AoE.
Why didnt flesh golem get a pulsing stability like the other elites?
Whoa, that’s a really good point…
Probably because it only gets Stability on Charge.
Should have still gotten multiple stacks.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Making-PvP-Necro-Viable/first
^
Necros asking for buffs on condition spec, do I need to link even more threads?All you see is necro complaining about their “poor” state in PvP based on current meta builds. Possibly you don’t see the word: terrormancer out in the open but all the complaints are directed to this specific build : slow access to DS, lack of mobility, slow casting animation of some wells and so on..all problems directly related to terrormancer build.
You call me biased..then say that Mesmer and Necromancer are lacking in PvP and I ask you how, seen that the rest of the professions use counter builds, something that’s lacking does not require specific speccing.
Unless you equip multiple condi removals ( like 3+ condi removal skills/traits ) you won’t even be able to touch your average condi necro, you get fear chained, chilled, crippled, weakened, blood, poison…without you being able to do anything.
Based on what is necro weak?…I don’t see how necro is weak in his role therefore I have suggested that buffs should only be directed to create another role for necros…not buffing the current one….hell no and same goes for Mesmer using shatter build, there is a price to pay for what you bring to the table
Well, you just proved you know nothing about Condition Necros. Let’s go over the skills/traits that were mentioned, shall we?
- Parasitic Bond/Spiteful Removal: Considering most condition necro specs don’t have any points in Spite, this is hardly going to buff that. Spiteful Removal is virtually never taken anyway because when it procs is so situational as to be useless.
- Spiteful marks: The proposed change would make it more attractive to go into Spite for condition builds, and might actually make some variations on the standard Terrormancer. Still wouldn’t be a buff to the meta build. Also competes with Chill of Death, which is good in condition builds as well.
- Withering Precision: Competes with the far superior Path of Corruption. It might see use in some builds if it were buffed, but those would more likely be Power builds.
- Focus changes: A weapon that is never used by Condition builds and wouldn’t be after the proposed changes
- Corrosive Poison Cloud: Currently not used on any build, so any change to it would not be a buff to existing builds.
- Chill change: not so much a buff to Necros as a harsh nerf to thieves.
- Barbed Precision change: hey look! The only buff to condition specs in the entire thread! And it’s not that huge of a buff either, since each stack would still be only 2 seconds long.
In addition, condition necros never use wells and well cast times are not something a Necro complains about, since they all (save Well of Blood) have a 1/4 second cast.
(edited by Drarnor Kunoram.5180)
A couple of weeks ago people were saying that necro is one of the strongest classes, especially in pugs and how they could take on three players at once, turn games around etc.
Now suddenly it is weak and needs buff to be viable, ok……..
Umm, what? Who was saying that? Last time that was the case against any decent players was back in the beta weekends (when, let’s face it, everyone was kinda meh).
Here you go: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Experts-What-class-carries-solos-best/page/2#post4636958
Not to mention that some necro builds directly counter some of the most annoying builds in spvp atm. If necro mobility/escape mechanics are boosted they need to have damage and life force regen nerfed.
I see one person saying that and everyone else disagreeing with said person. While they do counter Celementalists and Elengineers well…they still aren’t taken on most teams.
Think about that. They counter what is, on average, 60% of the opposing team, yet most teams don’t want one. Seems more than a little off, don’t you think?
Actually, several people in that thread say necro is uber in spvp, if you are having trouble reading I can copy and paste for you to help. Also, most people say engi/ele cele builds are the most OP builds in spvp atm. Necro is a direct counter to that so is in a good place in that respect as well.
Note the classes that are not mentioned- guard, warrior and I think Mesmer. I don’t think those classes are UP, but necro was getting placed in the top three most OP classes in spvp, at least in pugs, and now you think they need a buff. Seems more than a little off, don’t you think?
Three people are saying that: one who appears to be trolling, due to saying that Cele Engineer is weak and Necros are OP (this person is also responsible for ~80% of the “Necros are strong” posts in the thread), one who is discussing minion master of all things (probably the Necro’s weakest build), and one who is well known to hate facing Necros because he doesn’t like bringing condition clears (as apparent from his posting history in multiple threads on the forum).
Perhaps I read more thoroughly than yourself.
The argument that Necros need improvements is not based on “we want to be better than everyone,” which is a childish reason. It is based on easily stated facts: under-representation on premade teams, especially considering it’s a “counter” to half the meta, it’s complete and utter lack of desirability in PvE, and some mathematical issues as well.
(edited by Drarnor Kunoram.5180)