They are all very good, in my opinion, but 4 of them are limited to very specific build types (3 minions, 1 axe). For example, 5s DS CD is a trait that makes specific types of builds work; if it didn’t exist, there are a few builds that just wouldn’t work.
no, in beta our DS boons had a reasonable duration and got nerfed hard because that trait gave them so much up time.
common theme really
epidemic → stupidly short base condition times, crappy fear duration
DS life bar → very few other defensive options
Reapers mark, Doom, Corrupt boon, Well of Corruption give 4 from utility/skills. Reaper’s Protection + Fear of Death is 2 more from traits, and then Fear in downed state. So my bad, 7 fears on your own.
ridiculous argument is ridiculous
we have 2 reliable on demand fears
the rest are situational and unreliable and as such not worth taking over other traits depending on the build.
oh btw you forgot mark of revival in your ridiculous argument…
“Flimsy rez” – best rez in the game…
yep the main (not only) reason you see necros in high level tpvp
I do think we need to be alot more powerful to make up for our lack of stability and invuln.
and our lack of mobility…
if a class is designed to be the least mobile they better have the ability to easily deal with multiple opponents who are disengaging and resetting the fight
I don’t know what are you talking about btw. And death shroud and dark path aren’t tied together.
they aren’t? how do I use dark path without death shroud?
Im down to see back Disease and Deep wound :o.
I thought they were going to go with an Attack Speed Debuff dot for necros.
It seems like they’re missing that, and necros probably wont mind having that back as the anti-haste.
I like this idea of anti haste
but just like chill it will only be half as effective on thieves.
Bring back the old Disease From GW1? maybe rename it Plague.
- Tick damage similar to poison
- Moderate duration
- Every 3s it will Disease up to 3 people (180 radius)
- Increases tick damage by % for each unique condition on target.
The idea behind it is to have a condition which will affect team fights, specially on Nodes on PvP and WvV where the low dmg ticking condition could add up to big numbers if left alone, forcing players to remove it to prevent it’s spreading or to avoid players suffering from it. as well as following the ideology than a disease can moredeadly if faced with multiple conditions at the same time.
Also, in the future, this condition could be easily introduced to another professions such as engineer(throw plague), Thief(Plague Venom), Mesmer(Illusion of Plague).
Any thought? suggestions? idea? please let’s keep it constructive and troll free.
seems like if we epidemic this new condition it would be balls out ridiculously OP
would it stack duration or intensity?
how about a skill that does more damage the less HP we have left on our normal bar
How about a skill that heals our normal HP pool based on life force damage they deal to us while in DS
How about a skill that gives a short window of time that allows incoming healing in DS.
The secondary effect of the new “dark” dot is going to be interesting. Any thoughts as to what would be a good option?
how about an effect that punishes condition removal?
while increasing toughness is only helpful for healing builds.
I see now, this is where you are having trouble understanding…
toughness increases survivability in EVERY single build because it reduces damage the minions take (this is what we are after).
In healing builds it has the ADDED benefit of increasing effective healing.
For the record: Toughness doesn’t increase survivability against condition damage.
for the record: the necro has abilities to deal with conditions on allies, but you already knew that right?
while increasing toughness is only helpful for healing builds.
I see now, this is where you are having trouble understanding…
toughness increases survivability in EVERY single build because it reduces damage the minions take (this is what we are after).
In healing builds it has the ADDED benefit of increasing effective healing.
I know how healing works. The point remains you originally said that not raising toughness reduces your healing. That is not the case and was the only thing I addressed.
no I didn’t, I said it reduces my effective healing, which it does.
If they increase the HP on minions, that does absolutely nothing to your healing. Your 200 heal is still exactly as effective as your previous one.
exactly, and that is why toughness is better, because it does increase my EFFECTIVE healing.
if you want me to explain it I’ll jump on mumble with you but you seem like you are trying not to understand the concept as hard as you can right now.
Don’t have a lot of time, but as Bhawb said increasing HP has no negative effect on healing effectiveness because Heals are hard numbers and not by % means that you will always heal the same. In addition Regen also ticks individually, so you’re not healing faster one way or another except you are given the illusion of healing for more because your health bar refills quicker.
The only way this change negatively effects Minions is in the Fractals as it means Agony will do them more damage making it harder to heal minions effectively.
I am sorry but you are both clueless on this one.
increasing toughness also increases effective healing to argue otherwise is ignorant.
if my choice is more hp or toughness with the result of both being better minion survivability I will take the one that increases my effective healing as well.
in addition to that many classes/builds that use increased damage below a certain HP % so this is another additional benefit of higher effective healing.
I shouldn’t listen to these dev interviews anymore, I just lose all confidence in the game balancing.
It’s like this is the first MMO they have any experience with at all. They just seem like really slow learners.
The thief comments, we want them to be the most mobile, most bursty and be able to enter stealth in combat at will and stay there if they want to and they want them to have more healing and survivability.
sotg spvp interview a while back “we think ele is fine”
this interview to summarize “we are nerfing the ele”
They should stop doing these interviews, stop trying to resuscitate the dead cow that is spvp and start working on wvw where the vast majority of their customers are.
More HP will still good, we’ve been asking for more survivability and HP will do that. If you don’t like minions don’t use them.
upon further consideration I think this is a bad idea.
The pets don’t need more HP, they need more toughness.
The last thing I need is my effective healing to be reduced on my pets.
HP pool on them right now seems about right compared to the healing I can give them in my MM build they just need to be tougher against DD aoe.
Fear suffer from both being a condition and a disable.
And that mesmer prolly didn’t have any condition removal equip to counter any of your conditions.
Pretty funny from a mesmer to call you cheap.
Nobody is calling fear imbalanced, frustrated people will call anything OP.
Seriously. a mesmer calling fear cheap. Complete fail. They have so many good stun breakers, all of which break fear. LOL.
exactly what I though reading the OP, this mesmer should be called out publicly and shamed mercilessly.
lets hope it’s something that is useful to both power and condition builds,
unlike terror for instance.
Take the trait to reduce minion cooldowns and just let them die.
to me this is just a waste of a trait. better things to choose from
They have different teams looking at each, although I’m sure they meet since as of now balance is done across the board (mostly).
I am sure there are a lot of shared resources between those 2 areas (pvp and wvw) as is evident by the content in the patches since release.
Some people play WvW for killing people, I do. So, that’s where Necro performance matters for us.
Amen, they need to put ?pvp aside for a while and get WvW cleaned up.
Guardians and warriors have to go deep into defensive setups to be able to tank as much as a necro on a baste level
not just wrong, Sofa King Wrong!
There are very few reasons for devs to post here. They focus on banning people like me for a week when I say:
“Will necros learn how to play without spamming a single skill and relying on a single sub-par build expectation?
So long as people read these forums, then no.”Some necros prefer to report innocent posts/opinions of those who know the class to be solid rather than try to learn how to improve personally.
not surprising, even your best posts are pretty near worthless, even worse than mine.
I like this idea just because if you don’t trigger a mark by casting it right on someone it is basically wasted as you can dodge trigger it with no consequence.
if not this then something needs to be done
maybe greater marks include undodgeable a well as unblockable.
perhaps allow players to dodge the direct damage but still apply the conditions
Between being in a self-cc’d (movement speed is reduced in DS) punching bag mode, and no healing inside DS, those extra ‘bonus hps’ from DS are generally pretty worthless as the enemy is getting near free attacks and only having to dodge or shutdown 1 life transfer and a few life blasts while in this mode and the necro is not gaining any advantage in HP in general. In fact I’d prefer it if DS were harder to get into and more powerful, so seeing a necro in DS would make enemies feel like ‘time to run’ instead of ‘time for free hits’. When you see a thief go into stealth or a ranger camp healing fountain or an engie drop a net turret or a warr stand up in invuln mode, or an ele RTL in and start spamming kds, you have to take notice and change your attack plans. When a necro goes into DS you just turn up the heat on them.
This class is really only good for being carried by a group or tagging from behind a keep wall. It needs help to play at the level people would like it to play at, which is where you could 1v1 a good ele/mes/engie etc.
all theory crafting aside, this is the sad reality of what happens in practice most of the time.
F2 – Blood is Life……………………………………force
here are some arbitrary numbers to give an idea.
use x% of current HP pool to start channel of 3 seconds for 30% life force over the 3 seconds
or..
start channeling for 3 seconds and apply 3-5 stacks of bleeds for 6 seconds on self and gain 30% life force over the duration of the channel
has good risk vs reward
you can still be interrupted and not get any LF but still lose the health or suffer from the bleeds in the second example
we also have many abilities that would work well with something like this, condition transfer, toughness while channeling, DS stability, wells etc. to reduce the ease of enemy counterplay.
how about an F2 skill that that channels building life force at the expense of life or by stacking conditions on you?
this would make it more dangerous to do it in combat but would let us build life force out of combat easier
Am i the only necro that actually thinks my class is overpowered ? (At least at tPvP)
what build do you use and in what way do you feel it is overpowered?
is it only in a group you feel overpowered (tpvp) ?
I don’t attack them, I’ve consistently tried to help them out. Its people who refuse to try anything that I lose patience with; it annoys me that people obviously don’t give a crap about trying to understand their build in the slightest and instead feel that it obviously must be the game’s fault, instead of spending even a little bit of time actually learning something.
is this what you mean by “helping” people?
you talk down to the guy and tell him it’s his fault?
then in this thread you admit there is problems?
how bout that consistency I was talking about?
I agree they could use some AI help
then why do you attack everyone who brings up bad ai in the necro forums
you need to make up your mind, a little consistency in your arguments would go a long way in building credibility and mobilizing the necro community with the cause of getting the fixes we deserve.
the devs do read these boards you know…
Go ahead and think that, MMs are already one of the strongest 1v1 builds in the game and you want to remove one of two counterplay options we have.
perhaps you could come up with an argument that isn’t full of holes to convince me?
Too strong. In PvP you’d easily come into every fight with basically instant minion replacements. I don’t know how big of an issue it would be for minions like bone fiend, but it means you get two stun breaks via Flesh Wurm and 4x bone minion explosions (which is 10-12k damage), along with removing our biggest counterplay.
another knee jerk reaction from you thinking any change will make us OP.
we already have 2 stun breaks possible in very short succession from spectral walk and they are even insta cast
we can already put out 10-12 k damage more reliably in the 4 seconds it would take to blow up the minions cast 2 more and blow em both up again
It does work, I’ve sat in Heart of the Mists for over 10 hours testing minion aggro, and Bas and I release a video via SOAC that showed it in action.
Something must have happened between now and then or HotM has some completely different AI.
I’m finally getting around to doing map completion on my necro. Decided to play MM since I never use it in PVE. Using a 30/0/20/20/0 build. All of this happened in Diessa Plateau. Played for about an hour there before logging off in frustration.
First started with scepter (forgot unequip it o_O) against some separatist NPCs. Only my Bone Fiend and Blood Fiend would attack. Bone Minions, Shadow Minion, and Flesh Golem refused to attack until I used golem charge. Then the golem would attack that one NPC, but would stop in its tracks after it killed it and would refuse to do anything else. The other two still wouldn’t attack no matter what I did. Then I switched to dagger/warhorn. They all started to finally attack on my auto attack chain, but the Bone Minions still refused to do anything 2/3rds of the time. Golem would just randomly stand there for no apparent reason. Axe was hit and miss. Most of the time they would attack, but they’d still bug out (except the ranged minions who would work every time) quite a lot, even when using auto attack only.
Against structures, none of them would attack except the Bone Fiend, period.
I know you made a video, but my experience last night was VASTLY different than what you’ve shown. My conclusion is that minions are still broken and not worth using in PVE.
sorry man, bahb’s 10 hours of testing trumps everything, the rest of us are either blind or liars or we don’t know how to press 1.
/thread
(they’re terrible there anyway, why the heck do you have them?)
thank you for finally admitting they need to be fixed in wvw
you may go now…
Why do I test in HotM? Because that is the only area where you can get remotely conclusive “scientific” data. Any data you get in PvE is “corrupted” by the fact that everything there is going to attack back, and that causes aggro. Same in WvW, they are going to have corrupted testing because you are fighting an actual target.
So far, all my testing has held true, just obviously what works in perfect lab environments doesn’t translate perfectly to the field, as is the case with everything. It doesn’t mean what I know isn’t valid, it just means that things get muddy in the field.
unfortunately the only time it really matters is when you are fighting an actual kittening target
so your 10 hours of testing was huge waste of time
It does work, I’ve sat in Heart of the Mists for over 10 hours testing minion aggro, and Bas and I release a video via SOAC that showed it in action.
doesn’t work in wvw reliably, it’s very buggy with the worst being fleshy.
numerous times I will have a vet down before he even attacks.
try testing it in wvw bawb, the vast majority of players don’t even play ?pvp.
I see alot of people say they use doom to set up other cc like dagger root and dark path
something is wrong when you need to use your hard cc to make sure your other cc hits to set up a well bomb or a gap closer
Thats exactly how I use it since I am not traited for fear duration but rather chill. I use fear to set up my dark path; timing becomes critical since you need to doom them before they are likely to dodge the dark path. Pretty much only way to make it hit a decent player.
exactly and this just shows how bad our gap closer performs, I play ever other class but the ranger and none of them have a gap closer that you need to hard cc your target first to have it reliably work.
I see alot of people say they use doom to set up other cc like dagger root and dark path
something is wrong when you need to use your hard cc to make sure your other cc hits to set up a well bomb or a gap closer
A build revolving around CC has more CC? Please go on :P
I did say that we have more CC barring a few specific builds. I realize that warrior/guardian hammer builds, and certain engineer builds have the ability to do better, but those are entire builds around CCing enemies, our CC is just gained via picking Necromancer in character creation.
you can’t get less than 2 types of CC on an ele either no matter what weapons you pick so you could say the same about ele’s.
you can get 12 different cc abilities on an ele if you want as well
plenty more than a few builds out do the necro in amount of cc, ease of use and reliability on their cc
You might as well compare immobilize to poison which is also a type of CC which control healing – aka a condition. I hoped you would read the tittle, and assume I was obviously talking about hard CC…
Not even close. Poison doesn’t change your ability to move or the ability to use skills. It doesn’t change your ability to control your character. How long have you been playing MMOs? Its a pretty standard term thats been around for a long long time. Immoblize (roots) have always been considered CC. Besides, as I said before, you can remove any CC (stun breakers remove knock down) in this game with one skill or another, so thats not a valid point.
“poison which is also a type of CC which control healing "
…
“Poison doesn’t change your ability to move or the ability to use skills. It doesn’t change your ability to control your character.”Puting words in my mouth now?
Look, at this point, I’m just goin to let facts speak:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Control
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Condition“How long have you been playing MMOs?”
For a really long time:
And wow is one of them.
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/kiljaeden/Poplolita/simple
you really should read the evidence you use to support your argument as in this case it proves you are wrong.
from your control link “Control is the act of manipulating enemy movement…”
and your poison argument is ridiculous.
Simple and easy.
Let us slot the skills for DS we want to use in either one or both underwater DS and DS.
It would let us tailor our DS skills to our build and gear.
examples:
- for my powerbuild I would have slotted life blast for both DS #1’s
- for my condition build I can have plague blast in both
- for condition/support build slot gathering plague instead of life transfer
- for purely ranged builds take Dark water/cloud (make it ground target)
BOOM DS for all builds
very… interesting… just wondering, how does this affect allies who start reviving you in comparison to other classes being revived?
From my observations and assumptions, you are healed by the same percentage as other professions, and because we have this disadvantage we receive 67% less healing when others try to heal us. In practice this means its much easier to out-damage a downed necro whos getting healed in addition to having less overall downed health.
Sadly, this’ll jsut get added to the list of kitten which wouldn’t have gone live if ANet had a halfway decent QA team, and then to the list of kitten ANet would know about if they actually read the necro forums.
Your work, Targuil, is exceptional. Unfortunately the work of ANet cannot be said to be of the same standard.
I posted the same thing on bug repost section. I really hope they read it.
E: A random observation: When I counted the ticks down and died on the 31 (31 because it seems to round down, so you survive 30th which should probably be when you die), I thought if I could figure out the exact downed health we have. Assuming downed state without penalties starts at 75%/100%, or 3/4, we can multiply the number of ticks taken by 4/3 to get the total downed health lost from ticks, which is the whole bar. 40*482=19280. And my necromancer had 19291 health. If we assume there is a rounding error there, the numbers look pretty much identical to me. That means in PvE, necromancer’s downed state is 100% of his normal health, while other professions have 300%. You can do the same calculation for other professions and end up with 300%. Easiest way to test this is to down vs random single animal without damaging it at all, have a friend to kill the mob so it doesnt attack you even once when you are downed, count all ticks it takes for you to die and do the calculation.
now we just need someone to come in here and tell us how we would be so OP if we were equal to other classes in downed health and then rattle off a bunch traits and abilities as if the rest of us had never heard of them before…
Do you move at all, even a few steps, when you activate the teleport? Also, can you walk to its location without jumping or falling / sliding?
lol
is wurm teleport the only one you have to stand still for it to be reliable now?
its funny to see the lowered expectations alot of people have for this class.
Do not use DS just to absorb hits. It is a weapon on a timer. Lead with it. Use DS to port to your opponent, inflict chill and AoE, channel LF, Fear, then exit and curse the snot out of everyone before laying on the damage.
While many think of DS as a second health bar, the best use it a bit like Thief’s Initiative. Build it up, watch the CD, then burn it on a face-melting invulnerable attack. Exit, wait for CD, and so on.
interesting concept.
let me pose a question.
would the thief be more powerful if they could lose initiative from damage?
it would be a way of soaking up damage for the thief, call it a shroud something…
perhaps Misdemeanor Shroud or something like that.
now wouldn’t that make the thief just over the top OP?
IF thief has that ^, they will be a totally uber version of a necro (not that they are not already arguably). Might as well remove necromancer profession from the game.
and that is what you would think at first but it would actually kitten them really badly
in the same way it gimps DS
incoming damage takes away your damage potential in DS, it almost forces you to use fear immediately to make sure the opponent doesn’t burst your burst first.
if thieves could have their initiative damaged away they would be so kitten it would ridiculous.
Do not use DS just to absorb hits. It is a weapon on a timer. Lead with it. Use DS to port to your opponent, inflict chill and AoE, channel LF, Fear, then exit and curse the snot out of everyone before laying on the damage.
While many think of DS as a second health bar, the best use it a bit like Thief’s Initiative. Build it up, watch the CD, then burn it on a face-melting invulnerable attack. Exit, wait for CD, and so on.
interesting concept.
let me pose a question.
would the thief be more powerful if they could lose initiative from damage?
it would be a way of soaking up damage for the thief, call it a shroud something…
perhaps Misdemeanor Shroud or something like that.
now wouldn’t that make the thief just over the top OP?
so in other words its just another nail in the coffin for the few select group playing necromancer ? just another “downside” to chosing necro ?
The funny part is ive read posts from original gw1 players who are crazyly enjoyng beating the C**P out of us necro because it was such a “op” class in gw1& now its just a nuisanceThere is no stable argument to defend that mistake. Anet WILL fix it. When it’s happening is another story…
well the thief community found a bug last patch and it was emergency patched in a day or two.
We on the other hand have bugs that have existed since launch that are as easy to fix as changing the range.
a thief with a mainhand sword that had barely any stealth but instead had a ton of evade.
This kind of thief is the absolute worst match up for a necromancer. Not only because of condition removal on stealth, but because the sword 2 skill also removes a condition on use (as well as teleports the user). Worst part of it is, the skill has no cool down and they can repeatedly chain that skill as long as they have the initiative, which isn’t a problem because its very cheap on initiative use.
not only that, it also has stun break on it.
no-cooldown stunbreak condition removal teleport…………on a single weapon skill.
I would love it if spectral armor gave us stability but cant see that happening.
The problem is if they did that, it would become an exact replica of Elementalist Earth armor, but directly better because of the LF generation.
it will be ok bawb, the entire kittening earth won’t explode if the necro has a skill that is better than another class…
also consider how comparing us to the current alpha class as a reason we shouldn’t get a buff sounds.