Guild Wars 2

digiowl.9620:

Dredlord.8076:

Bhawb.7408:

digiowl.9620:

There is one major benefit of boons over conditions tho, transference. Unless i pack epidemic, taking down one target and moving to the next means that with conditions i start from scratch. With boons however they follow me rather than my target.

That just reduced my available utility options from 3 to 2, as i basically have to have epidemic padlocked there so i can transfer those conditions. And that only applies if the next target is withing AOE range.

Actually Necro conditions are pretty AoE heavy, especially non-damaging ones. Bleeds are often single target, but weakness, poison, chill are all pretty easily put on a team. So you shouldn’t need to spread weakness with Epidemic at all, they’ll probably already have it. Also, with the exception of fighting a Necromancer, conditions don’t usually come back to bite you, boons can. A thief can steal them, a Necro can corrupt them, and a warrior can get more damage out of them. In fact a Guardian can kill themselves very easily by using shouts at the wrong time against CB carrying Necros.

But again, they want to boost our ability to live without needing boons. Obviously that means buffs, which means using the current system is fallacious, they are going to change the system.

bleeds are not often single target, of all our weapon sets only 1 is, all the rest are AOE.

This only still helps if the enemies are within relative close proximity. Boons you can carry with you for some distance.

i totally agree with you. I was just correcting his mistake.

It is a mistake the devs made with the necro that has been seen in other MMO’s

One class is balanced without buffs compared to the rest with buffs and when they are in a team and getting buffs from teammates they are OP juggernauts or they are balanced with full buffs from team mates and are under powered when solo.

Both scenarios are bad.

This was a poor design choice.

Blaine Tog.8304:

Dredlord.8076:

Thanks for what?

If you can’t say anything nice, at least say something constructive.

Dredlord.8076:

In any other industry outside of government workers this kind of customer service would get you fired. Don’t make excuses for kittenty service.

Ok first of all, Anet’s been doing pretty good by MMO standards. Starting up an MMO is the biggest, most complicated thing you can do in the video game industry and consequently has a lot of problems that crop up. That the game only has as many bugs and balance issues that it does is a borderline miracle.

More importantly, I’m not saying we should let our problems with the Necro go unheard. I’m saying we should be civil in our presentation of them, if not for the sake of our own blood pressures than for the purely practical reason that nobody wants to talk to a belligerent customer. The devs are by no means obligated to reply to us here on the forums. They have a busy job of trying to get the game up and running (it’s still in its early stages). If we want them to take the time to bother talking with us, running around crying bloody murder is exactly the wrong way to achieve that goal.

And if you’re really motivated to grouse, please do so in some other thread. This one’s supposed to be momentary break from that.

you quoted it, I will say it again.

stop making excuses….

if you think that making excuses is constructive you are dead wrong.

flow.6043:

Get some life experience? Rediculous opinions?
That’s quite the condescending tone for someone who (on absolutely no legal basis) feels so entitled to a certain level of attention to the class he happens to be playing.
You (among others) seem to think that making the necro exactly how you want him to be is in the devs job description.

It’s one thing to argue that players would be more satisfied with a better working product, hence increasing the customer base. But to assume that Anet deliberately neglects us, or that the devs are too lazy or just don’t care about the necro, that’s just absurd.

customer service is not based on legality it is based on customer satisfaction, if your customer service dips to the level of legality then you have failed at customer service.

I don’t expect the necro to be designed to my liking, but at the very least it should fit the devs own vision of it, which it does not. attrition anyone? suck it up flow you are wrong about this so move on.

For you to think that every employee at anet cares deeply for every aspect of their job is actually what is absurd. Have you even had a job yet?

Andele.1306:

Yendorion.2381:

Bhawb.7408:

If you actually think that what we are seeing is bad customer service, I really start to wonder if you even thought about what you were saying. These devs take time out of their day to come on live streams as guests, they take time out to watch tournaments and podcasts, and talk with people during them. They are taking an intelligent approach to fixing the game, one that is shown to be effective by far more popular games, and an approach that in the end makes the game much more enjoyable to their customers: us.

If you want examples of bad customer service, or completely ignoring consumer base, then you don’t need to look far to find far more impressive examples of not caring at all for their customers.

You forget the part where they are getting paid for it. The examples of bad customer can be many but one does not excuse the other.

Look up NCsofts earnings releases, most of the cash from GW2 (that is currently around 40% of their income), is going into WildStar and Aion… you cant really blame it all on a-net, more on greedy corporate scums that dont give them the money they earned.

now you are barking up the correct tree, the development of the game up until release was done by a different crew and a bunch of low paid inexperienced greenhorns were left to balance the game on a budget.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

It’s pretty straightforward. These are mathematical principles. They aren’t something you can vote on or say must be wrong because “so and so does things such and such way” or hope that other people agree with you. You can sit there and type until you get carpal tunnel, but the math won’t change.

then can you explain why my time to kill is so much lower on my knights set? mathematically of course….

Bhawb.7408:

digiowl.9620:

There is one major benefit of boons over conditions tho, transference. Unless i pack epidemic, taking down one target and moving to the next means that with conditions i start from scratch. With boons however they follow me rather than my target.

That just reduced my available utility options from 3 to 2, as i basically have to have epidemic padlocked there so i can transfer those conditions. And that only applies if the next target is withing AOE range.

Actually Necro conditions are pretty AoE heavy, especially non-damaging ones. Bleeds are often single target, but weakness, poison, chill are all pretty easily put on a team. So you shouldn’t need to spread weakness with Epidemic at all, they’ll probably already have it. Also, with the exception of fighting a Necromancer, conditions don’t usually come back to bite you, boons can. A thief can steal them, a Necro can corrupt them, and a warrior can get more damage out of them. In fact a Guardian can kill themselves very easily by using shouts at the wrong time against CB carrying Necros.

But again, they want to boost our ability to live without needing boons. Obviously that means buffs, which means using the current system is fallacious, they are going to change the system.

bleeds are not often single target, of all our weapon sets only 1 is, all the rest are AOE.

Bhawb.7408:

If you actually think that what we are seeing is bad customer service, I really start to wonder if you even thought about what you were saying. These devs take time out of their day to come on live streams as guests, they take time out to watch tournaments and podcasts, and talk with people during them. They are taking an intelligent approach to fixing the game, one that is shown to be effective by far more popular games, and an approach that in the end makes the game much more enjoyable to their customers: us.

If you want examples of bad customer service, or completely ignoring consumer base, then you don’t need to look far to find far more impressive examples of not caring at all for their customers.

its time to get some life experience kid, the necro class has received terrible customer service up till now.

The devs do these things because * it’s their kittening job*. I have many friends in the game industry all of whom have 10 plus years experience. They do these things because it is required of them as part of promoting the games they are working on.

The strategy they have used to balance the game has not been intelligent both from a business perspective and a customer service perspective.

Bawb your blatant fanboism is clouding your judgement and you have very little experience with mmo’s to back up your ridiculous opinions.

Andele.1306:

Necro staff and lich projectiles spawn outside of the players body (110~150 range) they dont hit anything whos entire hitbox is inside your model.

if this is correct then that needs to be fixed asap.

Andele.1306:

spoj.9672:

You dont need hp if you learn to dodge. Ive had countless pugs with bad dps, making dungeons so much harder than full zerker groups. Even when they get downed a bit the overall dungeon is easier. Tanky people dont contribute anything to the group other than being the last alive and then claiming “well you guys all failed because you died and im still alive”. Funny how that person cant actually kill anything on their own cause there damage is so bad its like slapping an ogre with a fish. There is nothing more selfish than just tanking and not doing any damage. Tanking is for mmo’s like wow. Dps actually helps the group because you burn mobs down before they cause the entire group problems. Why cant people like you accept that it is the meta in dungeon running instead of being stubborn.

No you still need hp unless you are a ranger or thief, because even perma vigored people wont be able to avoid all damage a boss can push out, especially with aoe mechanics.
Also the “well you guys all failed because you died and im still alive” wouldnt say that if you played well since no matter if soldier or all out rampager im pretty much on my feet for every fight (i do fail at traps thou since a-net cannot make a set timing for them). Also as a person that soloed MF, AC path 3 (old one when you could trick the idioti with 2 emberglows to be in the wall while the burrow spawn) and up to lyssa boss of Arah in soldier gear, no the damage difference is barely notable unless you have a 2.5~ scailing instant skill cough fire grab, eviscerate, backstab from behind, cluster bomb shot, etc because you got the same amount of power and necro skills in general scale pretty kittenty.
Ofc having 1-2 full glass cannons is really helpful, but unlike a full zerker group you can finish all fights in game with all soldier without any exploitation.
Strifes kitten kitten finish fast burn boss hp speedruns and people like you that follow his “meta” and explit encounter till it disappears up its own butt are the reason why wow dungeons ended up in the crapper and the reason why people used to get permabanned from mmos, remember Cthun wall trick, yeah 80+ people permabanned because they exploited fights and finished a encounter without bothering to learn any of the mechanics and having not finished the requirements for the boss, but still got their free loot.
Also that “meta” doesnt technically exist because PvE meta isnt dictated by elitest whores that love their free loot, but by the devs, so knowing how it went in GW, i can wait till they Underworld your kitten to hell.

thats a sad story andelle, I thought you were smarter than that.

Blaine Tog.8304:

Engels.8537:

PD: The balance team should be fired, but yesterday !

Dude, are you trying to drive the devs from posting? There is no benefit in making this forum a hostile place. None. Well, I guess it salves your misanthropy, but it also hurts the community, makes the place generally unpleasant, and makes it difficult for the devs to jump into the conversation. These comments are selfish and harmful.

We need to be merely firm in our criticisms rather than sarcastic and nasty. That’s a far more productive attitude to take.

In any other industry outside of government workers this kind of customer service would get you fired. Don’t make excuses for kittenty service.

Thanks for what?

if this was a restaurant and the devs were the cooks and servers they would not be getting a tip after this meal.

Took forever to get seated, a couple of thieves arrived after and were seated before us.

Order was mixed up or description on menu was wrong, my meal had no sustain as promised.

Food was under cooked and just not prepared well, sent meal back, second meal came even worse.

Manager was no where to be found.

Server pointed to the other classes patrons and told me they are enjoying their meals so I must need to learn how to use my utensils and once I had mastered that the food would taste better.

again what are we thanking them for?

evilanuzz.9017:

Hi
i run manly wvw

I agree the rest of the game modes are for women and children…

All math aside the difference in damage between knights and soldiers is huge in game.

Soldiers hits like a wet noodle and it takes a ridiculously long time to solo a camp compared to knights gear. You will be getting respawns before you finish the camp and that means enemy reinforcements have time to respond.

In knights gear you will shred a camp solo and have it capped in half the time.

In soldiers gear you will never kill a bunker ele. solo, in knights gear it wont be a problem.

ok now lets see more fancy math so you can try and convince me whats happening IN game is just my imagination.

this is the kind of kitten that should have happened in the first 2 months.

the devs still seem clueless and out of touch with their game and have no clue how to prioritize what needs attention the most.

the last 9 months are proof of that.

pray that the devs got sick of playing their mesmers, eles and thieves and actually want to fix the class because they (at least one) are playing a necro now.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Last time I did an in-game test. soldier’s outdamaged knights. Here’s a few hints to help you get past the biases:

Max hit =/= DPS
Big Numbers =/= DPS
Overall damage / time = DPS

EDIT: One trial =/= proof.

Feel I have to include this one. Due to the RNG nature of critical hits, it is possible to both outdamage and underdamage soldiers if the RNG decides that every one of your attacks should be a critical hit, or that none of your attacks should be a critical hit.

here is a hint for you

don’t add back in 1 minus the crit chance…

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

spoj.9672:

Andele.1306:

PvE – Soldier all the way (well i do have 2 ascended items that aint, but thats for lore reasons, i wish you could transmute them) since we have pretty bad power scailing overall, but nice base damage, also being able to facetank boss attacks and siphon up with dagger and staff 2, as for condi (hybrid actually) id say Rampager with Rabid amulets
PvP – Carrion with Rampager gem
PvP – 1v1 Rabid with Soldier/Carrion/Shammy gem

Soldier on any class in pve is just facepalm. The max defense you should ever go is knights gear. You are actually making dungeons harder by hindering your groups dps so much.

Soldier’s actually does the same damage as knights when looking at just the sets. To compare the two sets, you would get the following attribute bonuses:

Soldiers: 1003 Power, 698 Tough/Vit
Knight: 698 Power, 943 Tough, 757 Precision

For the ratio of damage increase:

Soldiers:

(916 + 1003)/916 = 2.09
4% Crit Chance
Adjusted Ratio: 2.09 x (1.5 × .04 + 0.96) = 2.13

Knights:

(916 + 698)/916 = 1.76
40% crit chance
Adjusted Ratio: 1.76 x (1.5 × 0.4 + 0.6) = 2.11

Which basically means that there is about a 1% difference between the two in damage. Comparing the durability, I’ll us the total effective HP, which is basically HP multiplied by armor value. Since this is highly class dependent, I’ll use the Necromancer as a base since we are, after all, talking about them.

Base HP: 18372
Base Armor: 1836

Effective HP 33,730,000

In Soldier gear we get:

New HP: 25353
New Armor: 2534

Effective HP (Soldiers): 64,240,000

In Knight Gear we get:

Base HP: 18376
New Armor: 2779

Effective HP (Knights) 51,070,000

So Soldier’s is superior to Knight in durability while having roughly equal damage outputs. There are only two times you’d ever want to go with knights: One if you are mixing it with something like Zerker gear or specific trait-dependent abilities so you can have more durability without sacrificing precision for the crits, and two in PVE if you plan on using attrition on champions mobs and want to be able to tank them indefinitely due to the increased healing efficiency gained from that toughness.

The latter will never be important for necromancers, since with Life Force scaling with vitality, they get a form of increased healing from LF gain in vitality. What soldiers will let you do, however, is plenty more face-tanking. This is really important for a necromancer, since they lack blocks, invulnerability, vigor, reflects, stealth, and some control effects. The only thing a necro can do is face tank, so maximizing this ability is important for the class. This creates a nice reinforcing loop for the necromancers, too:

First, they get the stats that let them face-tank better.
Then, they can use the dagger auto-attack at point blank longer, giving them more Life Force.
Finally, this extra LF lets them face tank for even longer.
Repeat.

This also lets the necromancer take point in encounters, drawing as much aggro as possible away from the zerkers so they can do more damage without leaping about like a circus monkey on red bull.

your math is fail…

in game testing shows knights out damaging soldiers by quite a margin

Skyro.3108:

No.

15characters

remember the good old days when it did?

Bhawb.7408:

It takes you 2 seconds to turn on auto attack?

Press 1 a bunch (queues up auto attacks) then Ctrl+right click the skill, you shouldn’t lose a single auto attack.

stop kittening making excuses for our bugs.

it would also take a coder 30 seconds to fix this.

vicious.5683:

Devs Balance Team

kitten someone beat me to it.

it’s like this team had no knowledge of previous lessons learned in balancing MMO’s over the last 15 years.

Kravick.4906:

Honestly, people like you on these forums are really starting to kitten me off. This masochistic view you guys have where its totally fine for necros to need their hand held in PvP is really doing a disservice to this class and those that have been pointing out the major flaws of this class for months now. We have people making honest to god excuses for why minion AI is bad as it is and being apologetic about it.

amen to that…

the fan boys need to F off so we can get some of our kitten fixed, they dont seem to realize they are kittening kitten up for the rest of us.

Blaine Tog.8304:

Kravick.4906:

Yeah it kinda does make a good benchmark, because thats the entire point of this thread. What necros can’t do because they don’t quite cut it. As was said earlier in this thread. When playing the other classes, depending on build obviously, a good player can easily beat 2 people at once. 2 bad players can easily stomp a good necro. Necromancers do not have the tools to last in attrition or 1vX fights. They are a class that requires support to be successful, when the other classes do not require it.

First of all, “because it’s the point of the thread” is circular logic.

Second, let’s posit that there were a creature in Queensdale that was Green unless Warriors used a special Utility skill called Taunt to make the creature Red to them. Killing the creature gave no benefit, but only Warriors could do it. Does this suddenly make everyone else UP?

Let’s give a better example: Necros are the only profession in the game that can survive falls of any height. Just switch to Death Shroud before hitting the ground and you’ll live. Does this make everyone else UP?

Thirdly, I’ve won duels as my Necro and lost duels to enemy Necros when playing on my other characters. Necros don’t require support.

it might be circular logic to you…it’s time to leave the roundabout though buddy.

secondly yes it makes everyone else underpowered with regard to turning useless mobs red. Thankfully this game revolves around COMBAT and that’s why we are debating the necros effectiveness at guess what? nope it’s not jumping from great heights…

it’s COMBAT…

thirdly, congratulations, useless piece of information for this argument but congratulations anyways.

Bhawb.7408:

No. I like being able to actually pull things when I have minions out. But please do get rid of the stupid glitches in their aggro that happen (for whatever reason).

thanks bawb the rest of us can have kittenty unresponsive AI so you can “pull” things

good luck with all your “pullin” btw

The pets need to attack on key press not when an attack hits.

BobJoeXXI.2493:

Mathog.3157:

Danama.1462:

p.s. And let Flesh Golem swim again!

What? When was Flesh Golem be able to swim???

Back in BWE #1.

I wouldn’t call it swimming though. They didn’t have swimming animations, more like falling animations. The only reason I can think of why Flesh Golem is unable to be used underwater is because they don’t want to spend any resources giving the Flesh Golem swimming animations.

“they have different teams for everything you know” I think I have heard that on these forums too many times….

so whats the kittening swim animation team been doing for the last 7 kittening months?

Bhawb.7408:

“Finally”? People create a topic to change Necros every day. And every week we get a page long rant about how we need to fundamentally change Necros.

maybe the devs should take notice?

I don’t see the same kind of posts in other class forums with even close to the frequency we get them here.

Avigrus.2871:

Forget it… not going to happen.

A-net are satisfied with the current state of the Necro.

It was made perfectly clear in the last State of the Game live-stream.

yeah just like how they said the ele looked fine to them one sotg and the very next sotg they had a whole slough of nerfs for the ele.

Otaking.4675:

Oh hey everything I’ve been saying for months is now validated by ‘pros’…neat.

yeah I feel ya there.

I tell you kitten right!

Alpha.1308:

well uhm……….what?
without trying to sound rude

@Rennoko,no it does not answer my question,because it definitely was not from might stacks and i would like to know where you’ve tested bleed out from epidemic getting all of your own condition damage,because after using Epidemic it shows your condition damage,but floaters do that for burning/poison/confusion aswell,it doesn’t mean that’s the damage they ACTUALLY take

@Panhauramix,you’re describing exactly what i had asked not to describe because that’s what everyone points to and it is NOT the question i’m asking

let’s put it into simple terms since clearly nobody reads the whole post before answering:

what if i apply 10 second bleed for 100 damage/s and someone applies 10 second bleed for 50 damage/s one second after my application

for 9 seconds how much damage are they taking

200/s or 100/s

read rennokko’s post again, be a learner this time.

and figure it out for yourself

Kau.8495:

i see less and less necromancers in pve or so it seems i could just be missing them as they slip past me with 15% runspeed deathshroud :x

I lol’ed, ty.

now off to play some darkfall…

Kau.8495:

you play a necro and was expecting fix’s? shame on you my good sir!

I hope the devs feel ashamed when this is the general feeling in a class forum.

this is how hard the necro community has to work to get a bug fixed….

it’s kittening ridiculous.

Skyro.3108:

Depends on the stun. If it’s a launch/knockback type skill you have to wait around the second you land back on the floor. All stun breakers work this way.

the teleport stun breakers seem to pop you up and skip the get up animations on knockbacks

is this what people are talking about when they say we have great build diversity?

Bhawb.7408:

Warriors are still well known for being the hardest to succeed with and least balanced class in PvP. They are all around terrible, and it takes a really strong team and a great player to make up the difference. 100b can do all the damage it wants, its still terrible without tons of help.

Necros are still well known for being the hardest to succeed with and least balanced class in WvW. They are all around terrible, and it takes a really strong team and a great player to make up the difference. Wells can do all the damage it wants, its still terrible without tons of help.

see what I did there.

point is listen to hisazul with an open mind

Anchoku.8142:

Wells are some of our strongest skills and can be traited for shorter cool-down for higher dps. They also synergize with Epidemic, create fields, and can be traited to add Protect and Chill, and Power is one of precious few utilities that add boons.

Frankly, there are other areas of the Necromancer profession that need tuning, first.

thanks for being so frank with us but I think everyone posting in this thread is aware of all those things you posted.

are we not allowed to talk about wells until said tuning is done or something?

Vex.7486:

Wells are absolutely fine.

yeah compared to other necro abilities they are fine.

compared to other classes aoe abilities they fall a bit short especially in wvw

bhagwad.4281:

I remember fighting you guys. I was the mesmer whose illusionary sword attack did 23k damage . Phantasm build though, not shatter as you said.

I also recognized Nemesis though I didn’t expect him to play the minion build!

that seems well balanced…

Softspoken.2410:

Dredlord.8076:

ronpierce.2760:

The initiative recharge rate thing sounds like a grand idea…

I made that suggestion in the thief forum months ago, they weren’t that excited about it….

So out of curiosity, I went and found it. Page 37 of the Thief Gameplay Megathread, I’m disappointed (but not surprised, that thread is just… Kind of a runaway train of chatter) that the idea didn’t hold many people’s attention.

that’s funny, you were hoping there would be no post so you could call me on it weren’t you?

cmon be honest…

ronpierce.2760:

The initiative recharge rate thing sounds like a grand idea…

I made that suggestion in the thief forum months ago, they weren’t that excited about it….

Dueling is fine, whats not fine is the little kittens crying about it in game when you kill their duel opponent.

The kittens mew worse than the op in this thread as if they have a right to an uninterrupted duel in wvw map.

I watched some of game 1.

It’s sad to see how unresponsive the ai on the fleshy is, he just stands around for what seems like forever on that fight at the 5+ min mark.

this skill is just lacking in so many ways, even on a basic functional level.

If it pierced through to its intended target the fact it’s a projectile wouldn’t be so bad.

I see it miss all the time by less than a half character width from players just strafing to the side slightly.

Having to use Doom to make sure it hits is kittening ridiculous.

I understand them having a target requirement so we don’t use it for mobility (something we aren’t supposed to have).

The devs are too lazy to put that requirement on many of our abilities that would help us (quality of life improvements), instead those abilities just go on full cooldown if we lose target just before activating them.

I have over 1500 hours logged over 2 necros.

I have alot of insight on ways to improve the power necro and DS builds.

Alpha.1308:

but EVERY weapon has an ability that can be used as an opener to generate enough Life Force to activate at least 1 skill (plus Doom) so,i doubt that would ever happen

oh rly?

perhaps you could teach us about this skill on EVERY weapon?

Bhawb.7408:

Nemesis’ Terror build (and variations) are probably the most widely popular in PvP/WvW.

In wvw I would have to say from my experience that power builds are most popular right now.

knights gear, wells and some collection of crappy traits.

Bas.7406:

and disproved the running theory that he is in reality a giant troll.

I’m not sure I was able to do that.

Thanks for having me on guys, love to do it again.

I can’t wait till the next “new” necro bug will be discovered.

they’re like easter eggs in the game but only for the necro community.

lettucemode.3789:

I use Sirlin’s definition of viable: a strategic choice (in this case, a build) is viable if it is reasonable to pick or play at a high level, or if a player or team that makes that choice has a reasonable chance of winning high-level games.

Viable does not mean “as good as the best thing”.

yeah great definition.

the next logical step would be…

all else equal if my build is not “as good as the next best thing” then I don’t have “a reasonable chance at winning high level games.”

as said before 2 maybe 3 builds that are barely viable and still under perform compared to other classes top builds.

Bhawb.7408:

Viable means that it can satisfactorily fill its intended role or roles a majority of the time.

and here lies the difference of opinion for the people thinking necro is fine and those who expect more from the class.

satisfactorily to me means under performing compared to the most competitive builds of which nearly every other class has 1 or 2.

when I think viable I think on the same level kittenter mesmer, bunker ele. etc. almost all of our “great build diversity” shrivels up like a kitten in cold water when compared to these.

Ratphink.4751:

That would actually be called a bug fix. This may seem like semantics, but people use the word nerf way too loosely and the two things are not interchangeable. To illustrate using the post made by CHIPS.

Wrong and wrong….

any change that reduces somethings effectiveness is a nerf, whether it’s a bug fix or not.

a bug fix can either produce a nerf or a buff depending on the nature of it.

stop being so ridiculous “stopped reading because you……omg saw a WORD!!!!”