Guild Wars 2

They don’t work in pve anymore, and never really worked in pvp. So… =(

They also die so wonderfully!

Not only is fighting in WvW balanced towards zergs, now culling is too. I know that Anet wants to have the ‘big helms deep’ style fights and that is fine. But maybe it should be like the siege of Minas Tirith, where a smaller group can wipe a larger group (uncap aoe).

WvW is where the pvp really happens in Guild Wars 2, lets see more focus put on that. Heres to the February patch, hopefully it brings some really balanced upgrades and changes.

I’ve never ran into this situation in any other MMOs, and have no idea why its in this one.

Oozo.7856:

Dynnen.6405:

Oozo makes an amazing sidekick btw

Dynnen’s definition of sidekick is someone who stays near enough to revive him when he gets downed (which happens A LOT)

Don’t think I’ve run across Amins directly since I don’t remember getting hit like a truck by a tiny Asura guardian. But, with the culling… maybe I have.

Its cause I’m all sexy and shiney and stuff!

flips his hair back

Besides, if you were down just as much as me we wouldn’t have the damage output or updates on your health pool!

Oozo makes an amazing sidekick btw

If you are wanting to focus on healing through symbols, I’d trade GS for Mace/shield. If you are doing this for wvw, I’d recommend dropping the CoP and getting SYG and getting full Lyssa Runes. Stability and retaliation are just too strong. Also you would probably get more survivability with AH instead of MF. With all the symbol focus you have in the trait lines, it would give you more survivability.

3416 Confusion ticking is pretty strong. But 20 second cooldown heal that does 8k+ healing is kittening kitten ><

Had some good fights that day, caught you guys outta position and gotcha a couple of times (except that D/D Ele ofc) but most of the fights we 5 got rolled hard =P

Thrumdi.9216:

Sarrs.4831:

Nurse.1085:

I agree with the person who said to make the maps larger. My friends and I (who played DAOC) have always agreed that the WvW maps were too small. It makes it really easy to zerg, which has it’s time and place, but zerging is just so strong right now. It’s really hard for the smaller groups.

A lot of people I know are waiting for this WvW patch to make or break the game for them. I’ve burnt myself out on GW2’s PVE content, all I have left for myself is it’s WvW.

Will making the maps larger actually help to stop the zerg, though? I don’t understand the reasoning, here. Unless more waypoints are placed around the maps, it’ll take just as long for a defensive force to arrive as it will for the attacking zerg- It’ll be even worse because your response time is delayed, even.

This isn’t to say I wouldn’t like larger maps, but I don’t see how it’d solve this particular occurrence.

Because of small maps and waypoints, it is more efficient at the moment for one zerg to zoom around the map to trouble spots. (In addition to other factors favouring zergs such as the Downed State, AoE Limit etc.).

But if the map was larger, and travel more difficult to those outlying points, then there would be a benefit to splitting up the main zerg, and having smaller forces patrolling it. And I would imagine those wanting small group action would gravitate to that zone, while those wanting the zerg could stay in a more concentrated central zone.

Hopefully they change these things. Is it make or break? No, but they definitely need to improve on some things. I’ve been harping on what you mentioned for months now, which I’m guessing you have as well

/brohug DAoCvets

moirweyn.9872:

Cactus.2710:

Dee Jay.2460:

What are you referring to? In what terms “make of break”?

Regarding progression, content or balance?

The OP hasn’t thought it out that far, and doesn’t really know. I’ve checked out a bunch of his previous postings and they mostly are just asking for better rewards to make WvW more “interesting”.

Yea – better rewards would be nice since there are no rewards for WvW. Badges? Don’t really need them anymore. Karma, don’t need that anymore. WvW is nothing but a massive zerg running all over the map capping and killing and being culled the whole time.

There is no reason to WvW right now as there is nothing to gain from it. If WvW was rewarding in some way, then sure, it would be worthwhile. Right now – not at all.

So yes, more/better rewards would make it more ‘interesting’, ‘fun’, and ‘rewarding’.

If you HAVE to have rewards to make something more interesting or a forced reason to play a game then maybe you aren’t a gamer. Hopefully this video will open many people’s eyes…

(NSFW)

Theres a reason most of what you fight in wvw is Thief/Mesmer/Ele

Bigger territories. I think we can all agree on that. Doing that right there should fix some of the problems with wvw.

Bay keep is easiest to take, hands down. Hills keep is hardest because the the terrain you can siege from provide enemy defenders with amazing kill zones. Red Overlook is a close second.

Uncap the aoe

Zerg vs Small Group fighting is now balanced

Checkmate

Thiefz.3695:

WvW is not PvP. PvP is PvP.

WvW was meant to give tasks to everyone on a server from PvP to PvE which is why it is included in the map completion. They wanted people in WvW. Supply may be PvE but at the same time you need the supply to fortify towers and build Siege so supplies are a required component of WvW. The main objective of WvW is to gain points by capturing towers/camps/keeps. If you are saying you don’t want to do Camps (which helps the server) or defend towers with siege ( the most effective against zergs ) then what you are really saying is “WvW” is not for me, I like PvP. In WvW you get badges for kills but that doesn’t equate to helping your server which is capping and holding territory.

People who work in small man groups need to take yaks, sentries, and camps to deny the supply of the other teams. It’s pretty much a must. TC did well yesterday keeping SoR from upgrading the TC keep. That has a huge impact so they couldn’t upgrade long range weapons.

You don’t like that then small groups need to scout and call out zergs. It also needs to deny the zerg supply. Zergs don’t form as a mass, it pulls in trailing players as they rally. If you camp between respawn and zerg ball you can kill the zerg supply as it’s moving. For example, when SoR zerg was being denied at QL or Durios, players were returning from SM. It would be very easy to cap them as they were running back. I would hate to see TC spec’d with glass cannon rifle warriors sniper shooting people leaving SM.

Lastly small groups NEED to hold smaller towers as it’s own forces take others. It may deny you your skills but it’s the most effective means of keeping a tower. Points matter, towers matter.

WvW is fine for small guilds however what I am reading is “I want to Player kill against moderately sized forces with my 5 man team.” That’s not WvW because that is what PvP was meant to be.

I don’t know if you’ve done any small group fighting, it sounds as if you haven’t. Small groups are getting run over by zergs all the time for 2 reasons. Maps are too small and AOE is capped at 5. Small groups don’t threaten large groups at all. The only way a small group can effectively change the fight is by biting off 5-10 man chunks of a zerg, manage to not dying with 20+ people spaming at them, prevent the enemy from reviving downed/stomped players, and repeat the effect.

Trust me, we know how much a small group can do

However we’re looking for balance here.

/resurrect

Continue discussion!

Uncapping max targets on AOE will vastly improve small groups. 20 people can put 100% damage on a 5 man, while a 5 man can only put 25% damage on the 20 man. This is not only forcing players to merge into large zergs, but making it more advantageous to zerg. Uncapping max targets on AOE will force players to watch their surroundings, and play smarter when fighting other zergs.

Current mechanics don’t force players to think about rushing into a mass of enemy players because they realize that the damage is likely spread out amongst other players around them. If the AOE was uncapped then small groups contribute MORE to the overall war effort.

On a lot of servers commanders usually have a, for lack of better term, special operations team. This team goes around back-capping supply camps, killing dolyaks, and stragglers. Imagine if this team could actually put a dent in an enemy zerg if they executed a well timed flank on the back lines. Currently small groups can’t do this effectively. They can jump into a fight, knock down a few players, maybe stomp a couple, and have to back out. If they could be rewarded for executing a great strategy, and the other zerg punished for not allowing it to happen there would be a lot more exciting tactical fights and interesting strategic fights. By tactical I mean small area, like skirmishes and open field fights. Strategic being big picture fighting and the overall war effort.

TLDR: Uncap AOE to balance zergballs and small groups, force players to be aware of their surroundings, and make the tactical/strategic war more exciting.

Oozo.7856:

But Dynnen, I enjoy wiping out people when they have the buffed supervisor. It’s more humiliating that way.

lol

You see a portal, you aoe on top of it. That simple
Of course since there is a cap on AOE zergs can just kitten through it and flank you without fear of completely dying.

Un-capped aoe = major threat to zergs and less zerging around in general. Look at DAoC for answers.

Now if we could only get them to remove RI and uncap max targets on AOE we’d be moving in the right direction

uncap max aoe plz

I know me and a few of your guildies haven’t been on the best of terms, but thats a good video Sol. I think you’re running a 0/20/30/0/20 build (based on boons, traits that activate in the video, pet swaping) but what are the stats on ur gear/runes/etc?

Ohh, nm read the responses. I thought your pets were causing crippling on ability use and missed that regen proc in the first fight ><

You assume that people can target him through the culling…

brooks.1875:

I have enjoyed playing with WM on Kain, don’t let them get you down, you guys are alot of fun to play with.

All aboard the bandwagon!

alexdawn.6387:

http://youtu.be/8VSrx8GWwbM

http://youtu.be/Rfe3k7Cnl80

will update more.

Nice coordination and maneuvering. I really dont know where the botting thing came from, but the culling spam/exploiting is just atrocious.

saiyr.3071:

Dynnen.6405:

2) Most commanders demand revives even when stomped, which pulls players from the fight

Funny, on Maguuma my experience is quite the opposite…commanders on Mumble are yelling for people not to revive because it’s a waste of time. People do it anyway, of course…

Go to rule # 3

DarkElvenChic.2618:

Dynnen.6405:

Rob.7624:

Dhampyr.2104:

Rob.7624:

Snip

Snip

Not really close in my eyes this week.
Was on this morning for a few hours and it was like curb stomping. No offence to any AR or BP reading this. Or even NSP.
Because if I could clone myself and have a couple of me on 24hours of the day? I reckon we could easy breeze through.
Lack of good Commanders and too many potatoes.

For a guy that spent the week we fought against him and his guild continually zerging around like a well trained grunt, constantly getting his feet cut out from under him because his flanks were never watched properly; its ironic that he mentions ‘lack of good commanders’ in most of his posts.

Hey Rob is a cool dude, he’s put in a lot of man hours for NSP. Why so much hate? Did he kill you?

This thread needs more of this epicness! Check out the battle ship at 4:30.

@GuildWars2

WvW from a different angle, when you leave HC sieging guilds to their own devices on an RP server: http://ow.ly/h5mKs #GW2 #PikenSq ^AT

Nah, commanders we find always get focused down and was the same case here. We do this for three reasons.

1) Most commanders can’t fight and command at the same time.
2) Most commanders demand revives even when stomped, which pulls players from the fight
3) Most uncoordinated groups zerg revive stomped commanders, which also pulls players from the fight

Also when we fought him, his posts were usually “Os guild is here, you’re all goin’ down! Bring it! (etc, etc)” So we brought it, and his posts never really changed =P

Rob.7624:

Dhampyr.2104:

Rob.7624:

Oh no I’m just laughing because we actually didn’t do too badly last week compared to the tier above us.

But xfer servers do die. Very rarely do they hold together.
Especially once you hit a brick wall and the PvD wins stop.

N0o0o0o0o Don’t make me pay ;_; I need that money for bread.

Now this makes me feel alot better and has restored my faith in humanity. I saw that your tier is really close this week, you guys must be having a ball. I’m envious.

Can’t argue about transfer servers either – there are always exceptions, though, and given how well our large transfers fit in with our population, I think/hope we’ll be the exception to that rule.

As to your bet… I hope you lose, but even if you win, we’ll still be happy here on Kaineng (as long as we get some good fights!).

Not really close in my eyes this week.
Was on this morning for a few hours and it was like curb stomping. No offence to any AR or BP reading this. Or even NSP.
Because if I could clone myself and have a couple of me on 24hours of the day? I reckon we could easy breeze through.
Lack of good Commanders and too many potatoes.

For a guy that spent the week we fought against him and his guild continually zerging around like a well trained grunt, constantly getting his feet cut out from under him because his flanks were never watched properly; its ironic that he mentions ‘lack of good commanders’ in most of his posts.

Foss.4830:

If you see an offensive post that you would really deem as being “Harassment” just report it.

If you dont have anything nice to say i strongly advise you to keep your fingers away from your keyboard

Good point Foss, although its too bad we didn’t see ‘the real good players’ from Kain this week (according to you ofc). Which is worse: poking fun at the opposing team, or saying the players that are currently playing on our servers aren’t good?

Maybe you did come out, can you find yourself in this video? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uy8rnSezspk

Caldeum.6059:

Nothing like watching south park while farming Kaineng for badges. I know FTF likes it too.

Awww! Interpreter has made a friend! =D
Hehehe

Littlefeather.8623:

Please, just stop with the flaming and harrasment. Yes we are beating you, but please enough is enough a couple more days and you want see us again, I truly am sorry for the WvW state of both of your servers, we have been there too, but please no need to keep harrasing us on the forums.

I’m guessing ur talking about me since you’ve made comments after two of my posts. Notice the “;)”? That means its a poke fun joke thing. If I wanted to troll you, you’d know. It would have citations, screenshots, and everything broken down nice and neat.

And yes, you do have more points that we do. However ‘beating’ us is up for debate!

(See what I did there?)

Nina.4596:

Once upon a time, on a server called Darkhaven, a guild Rethesis(RE) was formed. They posted “training” for commanders like they were “seasoned veterans”. Together with WinEveryday(WE), and other Darkhaven guilds, the server rose ranks. Until they met Dragonbrand server.

For weeks they fought against Dragonbrand server. But after the 4rth straight week fighting this server, most of the guilds started jumping over to Dragonbrand. (during the DB/DH/BP week) Till only RE guild was left in Darkhaven.

Now, if these “mentors” was worth thier salt, they’d stick to going down with DH and mentoring new ppl to forming new DH WvW guilds, instead they jumped to DB as well. But only for a week, since they cant really shine in there with guilds like EA(Elephant Ambush) and Uhoh around. So they went back to Tier 8, where organized WvW guilds dont really exists.

As they climb from T8 to T4 easily, they start recruiting the best ppl around. Im sure, in preparation for Dragonbrand.

But what happens if Dragonbrand destroys Kaineng with Rethesis in it. Will they jump ship again to a tier 8 server? History usually repeats itself. Although Kaineng seems to have a solid 24/7 zerg in 4 maps all the time, im sure Dragonbrand has that also.

Maybe when Darkhaven is on Tier 8, RE will mysteriously come back to that server to “save the day”.

RE was their ‘veterans’ and ‘trainers’? Ouch

Elochai.1280:

Littlefeather.8623:

Elochai.1280:

Littlefeather.8623:

Elochai.1280:

More like Kaineng the official bandwagon server or transfer server.

Yea, Bandwagon a server that was in T8 when we went to it, that makes sense

Yep then you got a guild here or there and went up a tier got more and moved up more and so on. That’s a bandwagon and transfer server. Just calling it what it is.

If my guild wanted to bandwagon, we would have abandoned our original server (Darkhaven) to go to blackgate just like the other guilds did when we lost in T3, no we stayed till we were the last ones, but we werent going to sale out like that, our guild leader Ethersin decided to try to create a WvW focused server from the bottom up, this is why we are here.

I never said it was such a horrific thing. I just called it what it was. Whether I called it one or not the problems that your server causes still exist as it does for any other huge shifts in server populations. I wish you good luck when you get to your proper tier. We may just have to let you pass as we did with Maguuma and all of their transfers. If you all are as large and have as much coverage as is being said. We’ll see the third server this time around will actually exist.

They may have coverage, but 90% of them fall over real quick

Ok I think I might have discovered the problem. I got invited to a group the other night by a enemy player who then went off on me and my group saying that I was an aoe spamming baddie (funny thing was he was a D/D thief who was probably the one spamming 2 a lot), etc, etc. Funny thing was he was from a zerg guild and we caught him and about 8 of his friends trying to get to the northern camp. He apparently was caught off guard by how much damage we could put onto his group.

This might be the problem as when people are running in smaller groups when they are used to larger groups protecting them from the aoe. Thereby making it seem OP when they are in smaller groups, moving to reinforce or retreating.

Also people who thinking the uncap would be a bad idea are still mentioning that people would zerg MORE. They are acting like if there was an AOE uncap then one zerg would be stupid OP, but the other zergs they would run into wouldn’t have any aoe whatsoever. Analytically speaking that is a bit ignorant =P Each zerg would be able to put out about the same amount of AOE. To make a stronger zerg, players would HAVE to coordinate to be effective, such as maneuvering into better positions, focusing their attacks, etc.

Still a great discussion though guys, and I kinda like the idea of players setting their own aoe with 5 being the minimum and all being the max. Don’t know how they would implement that, but its outside the box and I like that kinda thinking

Twinklefairy.6739:

Dynnen.6405:

Sabull.5670:

removing aoe limit would break the game entirely. It would make culling far more powerful, encourage random spreaded out pugs instead of coordinated movement, using combo fields and healing.
Wiping keep door sieges single handledly vs tens of players…

Most people talking in this thread have no idea how actually organised raid works. 15 people of actually organised people rolls over 30 from a average, decent guild.
Being in same TS does not make you actually coordinated. There is long way to go from that.

GET ORGANISED. 50 pugs in a server TS blobbing together aka using somekind of “tactic” no matter how lame it is. Hell yea it should require you to actually get organised aswell and realise how sitting ducks they are stacking like that. Instead of crying “why i dont kill them alone or with my 5 man when they sit in my red circles”.

We are organized, and I guess we are crying a bit. But its because small groups aren’t balanced with the large groups atm. Look at it like this. 20 people are in a small area outside of a tower attacking it. 5, lets just say guardians since I know the class, run in behind them and catch them unawares. If all guardians we running hammer, and even if they spread their mighty blows across a small section of it to maximize their aoe damage, they would still only knock down about 3-4 of them. This would leave the 17 others to turn around and attack, heal up, zerg res, etc.

Now even though the 5 man, maneuvered into a great position, organized their initial assault, they are still being punished and not as effective as the zerg. The point is that uncapping AOE damage would not only balance out small group play vs large group play, but make everyone have to pay attention more; even in small groups. Large groups would have to ‘keep their head on a swivel’ otherwise they will get flanked by a small group, and small groups would also have to do that otherwise they will get run over by a zerg (which is the current situation for small groups anyway).

HAHAHA, of course they’re not as effective as the ‘zerg’, they have 15 less people. Does that mean the 5 can’t wipe the 20? of course not, it just means you actually have to work to overcome the odds rather than win through nothing other than getting the first hit in.
The only thing that needs to change to combat massive zerging imo, is to reduce the ability to res fully downed players by anyone in combat, and lower the res from downed state speed.

Well obviously theres more to it than just getting the first hit off =P and you make some great points about revives from downed and dead states. Maybe lower the max rezzers from 6 to 3. Hopefully they will answer that little issue in the Feburary patch.

Now your point about ‘getting the first hit in’ is changing the point on the 5 cap for aoe. If I had enough time and set up I’d rather build 5 ballistas and fire from a distance and do WAY more damage. However if the aoe was uncapped damage output would be balanced. The 20 man could hit as many targets as their aoe could hit, and the 5 man could hit as many targets as their aoe could hit.

Check out this video here. It shows not only a great killzone we set up, but how effective a zerg can be just because a small man group’s aoe can’t threaten the numbers.

Sabull.5670:

removing aoe limit would break the game entirely. It would make culling far more powerful, encourage random spreaded out pugs instead of coordinated movement, using combo fields and healing.
Wiping keep door sieges single handledly vs tens of players…

Most people talking in this thread have no idea how actually organised raid works. 15 people of actually organised people rolls over 30 from a average, decent guild.
Being in same TS does not make you actually coordinated. There is long way to go from that.

GET ORGANISED. 50 pugs in a server TS blobbing together aka using somekind of “tactic” no matter how lame it is. Hell yea it should require you to actually get organised aswell and realise how sitting ducks they are stacking like that. Instead of crying “why i dont kill them alone or with my 5 man when they sit in my red circles”.

We are organized, and I guess we are crying a bit. But its because small groups aren’t balanced with the large groups atm. Look at it like this. 20 people are in a small area outside of a tower attacking it. 5, lets just say guardians since I know the class, run in behind them and catch them unawares. If all guardians we running hammer, and even if they spread their mighty blows across a small section of it to maximize their aoe damage, they would still only knock down about 3-4 of them. This would leave the 17 others to turn around and attack, heal up, zerg res, etc.

Now even though the 5 man, maneuvered into a great position, organized their initial assault, they are still being punished and not as effective as the zerg. The point is that uncapping AOE damage would not only balance out small group play vs large group play, but make everyone have to pay attention more; even in small groups. Large groups would have to ‘keep their head on a swivel’ otherwise they will get flanked by a small group, and small groups would also have to do that otherwise they will get run over by a zerg (which is the current situation for small groups anyway).

Kyus.3812:

From an organised small group perspective we actually find the aoe cap of 5 gives us an advantage and makes wvw a better working model than in other games. By capping it at 5 you give yourself a quantifiable number to balance around a maximum damage for that skill. by not capping it you end up having several very powerful aoe abilities that rule the lakes (Warhammer online).

In terms of 60+ zergs running around firing off aoe, imagine the ammount of death they will bring without an aoe cap of 5 they would be able to instantly kill anyone with that much overlapping aoe. a 60 + zerg can obviously already bring this kind of fiery death but the zerg nature makes them uncoordinate to stag that aoe so you will often find the cap of 5 helping you more than you’d think with inferior numbers.

There are some very good guilds out there that beat 60+ with small groups of about 15-20 day in day out and they do it by adjusting to the design of wvw not playing what they want and wearing what gear they want.

distance between defence points and siege range i agree with the OP siege should be an open field solution that draws open field fights to its location not a sit behind the walls and spam 1 eventuality. this is a bigger problem in EB over the borderlands though where you get a bit more room.

culling is pants we’ve learnt to allow for it somewhat now, but yup also right its pants.

If a 30 player zerg runs into another 30 player zerg, both groups can output high amounts of aoe. This will make large field engagements more fluid because one group can’t just run in all ‘durrrrrrrrrrrrp’ style. If they did this they would be punished for it because of the aoe output of the other zerg. The damage of both groups is equal and therefor forces the zergs to think about how to attack each other and maneuver.

We have done quite a bit of damage to large groups of players, but that wasn’t because we were able to reliably attack the zerg. We would chop off smaller chunks of the zerg into more manageable bites.

Calae.1738:

blurps.2340:

You obviously have never been at the receiving end of a melee assist train in other RvR based games. If you think AoE in this game is a lawnmover, melee trains in DaoC etc. are 18 wheelers.

And no, they don’t take any more skill.

Nerfing AoE would just result in huge blobs of warriors and guardians slashing everything down in milliseconds.

Knockbacks, immobilize, cripples, fear, chills and knockdowns will make quick work of a “melee assist train”.

The greatest disadvantage of a melee assist train is they attack 1 target at a time. This tactic would work in the presence of single target “healers”. Healers can easily heal unfocused damage because they are given enough time to react. In the absense of healers, players behave differently knowing that they don’t have someone babysitting thier health bars. When a players health reaches critical levels, they will naturally break formation to seek shelter from incoming attacks or use skills that make them invulnerable for those few precious seconds.

Excellent point, single target, but excessively high damage. When our guild runs in wvw with our friends from BSty/NoQQ/LARP, I typically have 1-2 thieves with me. These guys are extremely focused and brutal with their assisting and if you watch the videos you can just how effective they are. Its all single target, and they are the ones that are doing all the damage. While dealing with initiate/CC/support, the melee closes ground and deals the damage quickly and backs off so we can absorb damage for them. Our guard/warrior/ele aoe damage is not only easy to avoid, but impossible to focus against large groups. We have to rely on the damage output of our single target players, which makes us effective against small groups, but not effective against zergs. We have to bite off chunks of the zerg the best we can and turn them into small groups. This doesn’t really change the outcome of the battle because we can’t eliminate the enemy force with a well executed flank for two reasons. First we can’t deal enough aoe damage to knock down enough to turn the tide, and the ones we do kill just sit there and get spam revived (another issue, but they said they are resolving it).

I don’t agree with your point on aoe being boring though. The guardian is my favorite class because I make it have decent damage, high survivability, and great utility. Even though I am technically spamming aoe, using the right attacks at the right time and crunching all that information in the middle of a fight is what I find extremely enjoyable.

covenn.7165:

Calae.1738:

covenn.7165:

Calae.1738:

AoE needs to be nerfed hard. Really hard.

All you need is 1 commander and a bunch of lemmings following the commander closely. Everyone in the group is required to use weapon sets that deals AoE damage on the move. What this creates is a lawn mower. You know what a lawn mower is right? You know that device with rotating blades on 4 wheels that you push around that cuts grass? Yea that.

WvW is a pathetic zerg fest. A bunch of skilless lemmings spamming their auto attacks running around like a swarm of bees.

Sadly, you have no idea what you are talking about. AoE in this game is the weakest implementation of any MMO I have played in any game in the last decade +. The exact reason why zergs and zerg balls are successful is because they can rush through enemy AoE with no consequence.

Nerfing AoE more than it already is will make the exact zerg problem you are complaining about far worse.

A zerg doesn’t need to stomp anyone. They can just AoE downed players from a safe distance. You don’t even need range AoE. You could just have melee AoE.

Imagine a ball of players running around spamming melee autoattacks. 1 commander and 30+ players just mindlessly following the commander where ever he goes spamming thier autoattacks. They have basically turned themselves into anti-player seige. I call it the lawn mower.

If you propose higher AoE damage and unlimited target AoE; the strongest tacic in the game will be lawn mowers. The larger the group, the more effective it will be. Just run around and cut the grass. No need to stomp.

I am not trying to be disrespectful here, but your reasoning shows lack of experience playing MMOs in this kind of environment. Simply put, you are completely wrong.

When you have 30 people balled up, a single AOE spell hits 5 of them. Given that most AOE spells on average will do 1/8th to 1/10th of a persons life per hit, basic math alone will show you the problem when it comes to stopping a zerg ball. Simply put, it requires a mass amount of people AOEing on top of the zerg ball at the exact same time to even put a dent in it, and because the damage to the people in the ball is distributed and random, they will typically just roll right over anyone.

Now imaging that AoE wasn’t capped at 5 targets. 30 people try to do the same zerg ball and roll through you, but this time, they are -all- getting hit by each AOE spell. Standing balled up in a zerg ball now has gone from being an overwhelming advantage to being a death sentence. The very nature of this will make zerg balls a thing of the past, because they will be forced to spread out to minimize AoE because it is actually meaningful. They will have to actually pay attention to circles on the ground, use dodges, and counter abilities instead of zerg balling through it while hardly even noticing the AOE.

Excellent points.

Unfortunately I think most people fear aoe since it is effective in group fights. Things like 2-5 on most of D/D ele attacks are aoe, Hammer/GS warriors and guards, mesmer sword, are quite effective. I’m only going to speak for guards since thats what I play mostly in wvw, but looking at torch skills on that class it has one of the strongest single target hits in the game. High damage and I think a 2.25 damage coefficient, in my toughness gear it crits for 4500+ in pve and 3-4k in wvw. My whirling wrath doesn’t hit anywhere near that.

In group fights you want to hit as many people as possible. With melee weapons, for the most part, you need to be facing the enemy (whirling wrath doesn’t, but if I dodge during the channel it goes on full CD, so there a cost effectiveness to it). With other aoe skills that don’t require facing, the game shows you where that damage is coming from.

Great discussion so far. Time to hit the rack though, keep the ideas rolling people =D

The highest aoe damage I’ve been hit with was around 2500, and it was churning earth. But then again I’ve got probably twice as much toughness as 90% of wvw players =P

Thats definitely something to look at though will.2105, and yes culling is a problem and if I remember correctly there is a team at Anet thats sole job is to work on that issue.

lcc.9374:

im not sure if increasing the aoe would change much tbh

i mean

when was the last time that your aoe actually caught more than 5 people in it?

I pick a target to Judge’s Intervention onto, then drop a ring of warding around them. Mighty blow then some auto attacks. Switch to GS, Binding blades (here’s where I would get 5) then whirling wrath.

All of this is assuming they don’t try to CC me or attack me. This happens rarely, but usually I get some of these attacks off. Sometimes I don’t get any because I get focused so fast and half to burn defensive cooldowns to survive, then re-engage.

Calae.1738:

I think AoE doesn’t require much skill to execute and is uninteresting gameplay. Then again this is my opinion. I think seige equipment should be AoE. AoE on the move is total crap.

Nor does single target if you are talking about just hitting buttons. However if you are talking about large groups focusing single targets down with single target damage, then thats a different story. However thats not much skill either.

The unfortunate thing is you are always going to have a button you press the most, and speaking from experience maximizing targets being hit by your cleave attacks requires a bit more than just clicking on someone and pressing a button. There is a lot of positioning and maneuvering around the target, as well as trying to actively dodge and stay behind them while maintaining proper direction on as many targets as possible. These things should be running through your head constantly in a fight, whether its aoe or single target.

Kolisch.4691:

A cap on AOE targets is proof that zergs are considered dumb and totally clueless as to what is happening around them to move away if the area is being bombarded.

So I’m guessing you want AOE uncapped as well?

meep.2601:

wvw requires little to no skill and is getting old very quickly

Change wvw to zerging and u got a +1 from me. Knowing classes, dodging the right attacks, maximizing your damage, coordinating with your group is not only a lot of fun, but can actually affect the overall outcome of the fight for the week. Zerg surfing is fun in small doses and it is required to actually capture things, but actually monitoring the battlefield and responding to attacks/flanking/etc is a hell of a lot of fun.

Calae.1738:

Dynnen.6405:

Calae.1738:

AoE needs to be nerfed hard. Really hard.

All you need is 1 commander and a bunch of lemmings following the commander closely. Everyone in the group is required to use weapon sets that deals AoE damage on the move. What this creates is a lawn mower. You know what a lawn mower is right? You know that device with rotating blades on 4 wheels that you push around that cuts grass? Yea that.

WvW is a pathetic zerg fest. A bunch of skilless lemmings spamming their auto attacks running around like a swarm of bees.

The zergs aren’t able to kill eachother quick enough, and the distance between defensive points is too short. This is causing build up of those ‘lemmings’.

Look at it this way. 2 groups of 30 players each have been grinding it out back and forth against each other for 20 minutes. Neither side gaining or losing ground. During this time, a group of 10 players is able to move around to the flank and hit it. Currently the 10 man group isn’t able to put much of a dent into the zerg due to not enough aoe. They can knock down a few, but have to back out leaving the zerg largely intact. Now imagine that the 10 man’s aoe damage doesn’t have a max target. That 10 man can eat a larger chunk out of the zerg, turning the tide of the fight and winning the engagement. Currently you have to have a flanking force of nearly equal size to push zergs around. They only fear equal sized groups, and that should never be the case. In small group fights there are classes than utilize aoe more than others. However in small group fights this damage can be mitigated by dodging, or NOT playing glass cannon.

Are you proposing that a single player should be able to AoE an unlimited amout of players? It might work to take down zergs of 30+ players but, seige will have to be retooled. A player will become walking seige.

Yes, that is exactly what I’m proposing. 1 Player doesn’t survive very long in the middle of an enemy zerg. Also, siege has longer range, does a lot more damage than a player does, and can damage defensive positions. If an ele can somehow find a way to channel churning earth and detonate it in the middle of a large zerg before he gets…well zerged, he should be rewarded for that and the zerg should be punished for not having good situational awareness.

Calae.1738:

AoE needs to be nerfed hard. Really hard.

All you need is 1 commander and a bunch of lemmings following the commander closely. Everyone in the group is required to use weapon sets that deals AoE damage on the move. What this creates is a lawn mower. You know what a lawn mower is right? You know that device with rotating blades on 4 wheels that you push around that cuts grass? Yea that.

WvW is a pathetic zerg fest. A bunch of skilless lemmings spamming their auto attacks running around like a swarm of bees.

The zergs aren’t able to kill eachother quick enough, and the distance between defensive points is too short. This is causing build up of those ‘lemmings’.

Look at it this way. 2 groups of 30 players each have been grinding it out back and forth against each other for 20 minutes. Neither side gaining or losing ground. During this time, a group of 10 players is able to move around to the flank and hit it. Currently the 10 man group isn’t able to put much of a dent into the zerg due to not enough aoe. They can knock down a few, but have to back out leaving the zerg largely intact. Now imagine that the 10 man’s aoe damage doesn’t have a max target. That 10 man can eat a larger chunk out of the zerg, turning the tide of the fight and winning the engagement. Currently you have to have a flanking force of nearly equal size to push zergs around. They only fear equal sized groups, and that should never be the case. In small group fights there are classes than utilize aoe more than others. However in small group fights this damage can be mitigated by dodging, or NOT playing glass cannon.

Currently the balance between small groups and large groups is quite concerning. There are multiple reasons:
1) Maximum target AOE (damage and boons)
2) Player Culling
3) Distance between Defensive Points in WvW.

Since the player culling issue is being worked on we’ll leave that one out. However Maximum target AOE is a problem. The scenario that usually happens is 5-15 players are moving around in the warzone and flank the enemy zerg. The small group can’t do enough damage to the targets before they turn around and all spam their attacks. Maximum target AOE (in my opinion) should be removed to balance this out. If a group of players make a massive mistake, such as not paying attention to their surroundings, then the flanking force should be able to punish them for that mistake. But currently they can’t due to this issue.
There have been some arguments against this, such as the small groups will be killed faster and large group engagements will be hurt. However the smaller groups should already play more spread out than the zergs for two reasons: less aoe damage on the group, and smaller numbers. Also large group engagements wouldn’t be affected that much considering one side can output just as much aoe as the other. Also things like culling exploiting, portal cull bombs, etc would be mitigated due to the aoe output of the victims of these. Unless they aren’t paying attention of course, then they should be punished for making that mistake.

Distance between defense points is probably one of the most frustrating obstacles for wvw players in the game, and they might not even know it. Trebs firing out of certain locations like the garrison and SM at other defense points has been a common frustration among many players. Also what happens with the large groups is they don’t have much room to maneuver. This leads to zergs pouring out of defensive positions, and having a 20 second swiftness run over to the next defensive position. If the distances were larger, small and large groups could operate easier in open field as well as making zerg golem rushes more difficult. Players would have to think about a siege, rather than bouncing back and forth between enemy and friendly defensive positions; grinding against the enemy zerg.