Guild Wars 2

Teldec V.6203:

Dynnen.6405:

First time into that camp we rushed in, and payed for it. Next two times the defenders were outmaneuvered, however we couldn’t put out enough damage against the zerg, while they could put out plenty.

….. MOAR BRAINZ….

5 of us watched you “outmanevere” us, which consisted of simply running round the back of the camp from the water, all the way in. We called for back up then wiped you guys again.

One of you AD guys must have been recording your attempts at taking the lowlands, post it up.

Which time are you talking about? Considering each time we pushed into the camp we massacred the 5-10 players at the camp as well as the fully upgraded guards. I guess you’re right making fun of our movements, we did come in from the northwest once, and northeast twice. Also attacking the camp with a ton of ‘campers’ right next to their respawn was a miscalculation. I see what you mean there smalls, touche’. I’m not sure Oozo was with us for any of that mess, but if he did I’ll see if he can post the raw footage. He does actually post videos of us getting beat.

Insane Pancakez.9182:

Dynnen.6405:

For Faux Sake.8457:

Dynnen.6405:

Teldec V.6203:

Dynnen.6405:

Greenwater Supply Camp, DR Border lands. Perfect example of why they need to uncap-AOE. Durpy portal bomb tactics with player spam should not be rewarded and its kittening ridiculous.

We only portal bombed you once so far all the other times we wiped you guys we haven’t used portals.

Must not have been there for that one where we survived zombie horde wave two to be portal bombed by the 3rd wave. Or the one where the portal dropped in between two ballistas and 3 shots were fired while aoe was being dropped on top of that as well.

But hey, numbers > tactics.

Different groups, different portals. Still, it’s pretty easy to claim that the other servers don’t use tactics while one’s own server is the best ever at whatever they do. Numbers are always to blame. That “outmanned” buff on each of those zombies must be pretty menacing as well.

If you don’t like portal bombs, don’t have all your players standing in one spot. You only need one player in the area to capture it. There’s nothing stopping your group from splitting into smaller ones and surrounding the cap area to prevent invaders from portal bombing everyone at once. In one move, you can pick off players running in one at a time to contest and render portal bombs useless. If someone portal bombs into the center of the camp, your group suddenly has a great mass of bodies to focus on while they scramble to figure out which side the attacks are coming from.

But hey, what do zombies know about tactics?

Demonik.9571:

For Faux Sake.8457:

Good luck, fight fair, have fun, and remember that every time you insult someone, a kitten starves somewhere.

Also, awesome start BP.

I have a bad feeling there will be a crap load of starving kittens!!!

There usually are. It’s my excuse to post pictures of cats.

1) It was prior to your outmanned buff, so yea…
2) We weren’t all stacked up, we were ready for the portal. But its hard to stop 15+ from a portal, and about the same number coming in after they died/ran from the camp side. Again, I was pointing out that the bad portal placement (taking 3 ballista shots/lots of aoe) wasn’t punished because our 10 people can only hit 5 targets apiece.

Its like this, keep in mind this is zombie thinking obviously. But 5 players can only do AT MOST damage to 25% of a 20 man group, while the group of 20 can do 100% damage to the 5 man due to the cap. Also the 20 man has the benefit of have 4 times the number. So, zergs have 2 drastic advantages against small mans (3 if u add in the current culling system). I must be crazy, because this doesn’t seem very balanced at all. And this is what I was talking about. Poor tactics never being punished. First time into that camp we rushed in, and payed for it. Next two times the defenders were outmaneuvered, however we couldn’t put out enough damage against the zerg, while they could put out plenty.

Also ya know what Faux (yes I know how it is pronounced), your name looks like you’re trying to bypass the language filter…

….. MOAR BRAINZ….

Sooo… who taught you how to count to five? Lol, whoever did obviously hated you as a child. And how about you zombies coming after lowlands 6+ times wiping each time. I know we had a few less members at ones point, and still wiped you guys. 78 badges just from defending lowlands.

We attacked lowlands 3 times, don’t know who else was there for the other 3. But congrats on the strong work. As for your reference as the ‘counting to 5’ I have no idea what you’re talking about. Maybe you were talking about my example of aoe mechanics in the game and thinking that was a fight that took place at the lowlands. If thats the case L2R.

For Faux Sake.8457:

Dynnen.6405:

Teldec V.6203:

Dynnen.6405:

Greenwater Supply Camp, DR Border lands. Perfect example of why they need to uncap-AOE. Durpy portal bomb tactics with player spam should not be rewarded and its kittening ridiculous.

We only portal bombed you once so far all the other times we wiped you guys we haven’t used portals.

Must not have been there for that one where we survived zombie horde wave two to be portal bombed by the 3rd wave. Or the one where the portal dropped in between two ballistas and 3 shots were fired while aoe was being dropped on top of that as well.

But hey, numbers > tactics.

Different groups, different portals. Still, it’s pretty easy to claim that the other servers don’t use tactics while one’s own server is the best ever at whatever they do. Numbers are always to blame. That “outmanned” buff on each of those zombies must be pretty menacing as well.

If you don’t like portal bombs, don’t have all your players standing in one spot. You only need one player in the area to capture it. There’s nothing stopping your group from splitting into smaller ones and surrounding the cap area to prevent invaders from portal bombing everyone at once. In one move, you can pick off players running in one at a time to contest and render portal bombs useless. If someone portal bombs into the center of the camp, your group suddenly has a great mass of bodies to focus on while they scramble to figure out which side the attacks are coming from.

But hey, what do zombies know about tactics?

Demonik.9571:

For Faux Sake.8457:

Good luck, fight fair, have fun, and remember that every time you insult someone, a kitten starves somewhere.

Also, awesome start BP.

I have a bad feeling there will be a crap load of starving kittens!!!

There usually are. It’s my excuse to post pictures of cats.

1) It was prior to your outmanned buff, so yea…
2) We weren’t all stacked up, we were ready for the portal. But its hard to stop 15+ from a portal, and about the same number coming in after they died/ran from the camp side. Again, I was pointing out that the bad portal placement (taking 3 ballista shots/lots of aoe) wasn’t punished because our 10 people can only hit 5 targets apiece.

Its like this, keep in mind this is zombie thinking obviously. But 5 players can only do AT MOST damage to 25% of a 20 man group, while the group of 20 can do 100% damage to the 5 man due to the cap. Also the 20 man has the benefit of have 4 times the number. So, zergs have 2 drastic advantages against small mans (3 if u add in the current culling system). I must be crazy, because this doesn’t seem very balanced at all. And this is what I was talking about. Poor tactics never being punished. First time into that camp we rushed in, and payed for it. Next two times the defenders were outmaneuvered, however we couldn’t put out enough damage against the zerg, while they could put out plenty.

Also ya know what Faux (yes I know how it is pronounced), your name looks like you’re trying to bypass the language filter…

….. MOAR BRAINZ….

Teldec V.6203:

Dynnen.6405:

Greenwater Supply Camp, DR Border lands. Perfect example of why they need to uncap-AOE. Durpy portal bomb tactics with player spam should not be rewarded and its kittening ridiculous.

We only portal bombed you once so far all the other times we wiped you guys we haven’t used portals.

Must not have been there for that one where we survived zombie horde wave two to be portal bombed by the 3rd wave. Or the one where the portal dropped in between two ballistas and 3 shots were fired while aoe was being dropped on top of that as well.

But hey, numbers > tactics.

Greenwater Supply Camp, DR Border lands. Perfect example of why they need to uncap-AOE. Durpy portal bomb tactics with player spam should not be rewarded and its kittening ridiculous.

MosesZD.7428:

To the DR Forum Warriors:

Has it ever occurred to you that you lose because you make fundamental mistakes? Take the simultaneous garrison assaults last night (DR & SBI).

30 of you were on SBI trying to take our garrison with a golem rush while 30 of us were on DR trying to take yours using rams. We had nobody defending garrison but a lookout. YOU had at least 20, mostly AoE specialists (and of that, a LOT of longbow rangers), defending your keep.

When we heard you were trying to take ours, HALF of us went back and wiped you guys right as you broke through the inner gate while the other half remained to keep the pressure on while having inferior numbers. *In our defense of our Garrison, besides being out-numbered, we had no siege, no time to prepare as we barely, within seconds of your busing the inner gate down, made it into the inner keep way point. *

Despite being out-numbered by our choice, we, true to our expectations, wiped you. While out manned. The floor was red with DR bodies and I got somewhere around 10 bags. Your zerg never made it to the Lord’s room, dying in the supply courtyard.

Let’s compare that to your garrison defense.

During our assault on your garrison it took us 45-minutes to burn down your seige that you spent 1700 supply MOST OF WHICH YOU WASTED ON BUILDING MORE SIEGE THAT WE KEPT DESTROYING.

Not that it was ‘easy.’ You repeatedly, with your massive AoE knocked our squishy guys down so the heavies had to keep getting them up. And getting them up was a chore because you had multiple catapults and mortars you’d pound us with. But we did it, despite the ground being red with AoE circles and no place to dodge.

Beyond that, you must have had close to a dozen arrow carts in and around the Lord’s Room where we couldn’t take it down from the inner keep. When we broke in, with you having PLENTY OF TIME TO BRING IN REINFORCEMENTS from your SBI wipe, GIVING YOU YET ANOTHER NUMBERS ADVANTAGE, plus all those arrow carts, we still wiped you. And while we were wiping you, you respawned at Citadel, hit the just opened waypoint at Garrison and rushed in again. Where we kept wiping you, despite the constant stream of reinforcements.

So, even with all the siege, and having greater numbers AND the tactical advantage of the citadel-short-run-back and your own waypoint, you lost.

You had us out-manned on SBI. You, in the end, had us out-manned and with multiple tactical advantages on DR. And yet you lost. Twice. With more people (in total) than us in both fights.

So, I say, look to yourselves. Stop pointing fingers. Stop acting like it’s ‘superior SBI numbers.’ It’s not numbers. It’s how you play the game.

Ever consider most of the people you consider ‘forum warriors’ are people running in small man groups zerg stomping and hardly ever entering a keep/tower? Ohh I guess u are talking about the people NOT really posting on the forums. Well hopefully they read these.

But seriously +1 for your severe under-analysis of what people are posting, strong work there smalls.

Maladon.5760:

Cactus.2710:

Maladon.5760:

If players want balance they have to create it themselves through teaming up with other servers to take down the largest force on the map(s). Arenanet gave us the perfect method of dealing with zergs and imbalance, all we have to do is use it.

Actually, they didn’t. Aside from collaborating on which targets for each server to attack, there isn’t much that can be done, and even then it’s next to impossible to coordinate such things around the clock. No way, for example, that DR and IoJ could team up on the same battlefield to counter an SBI zerg as you suggest … AoE’s don’t honor agreements.

It was being done way back in DAOC under the exact same circumstances over a decade ago. The fact that this generation of gamers can’t seem to pull it off doesn’t mean it doesn’t work.

The reason you can’t just “turn them green” is because they don’t want you to get too comfortable with your temporary allies. You’re still supposed to be accountable for your actions (i.e. pay attention to what your AoEing) and putting the alliance at risk with poor gameplay is part of that accountability.

Most of the ‘double team’ situations in DAoC came from under-analysis (omg Hibbies and Albs are attacking the same part of the frontier…DOUBLE TEAM!) and people that have BPS (IE making kitten up). DAoC’s player base was not evenly balanced. Most servers had more people on one side than the other two, and in some cases more than the other two combined. However DAoC had a few specific things that allowed these lower population servers to survive:

1) Un-capped AOE/Healing
2) Much larger areas of engagement
3) Sieges took longer

Rising Dusk.2408:

Dynnen.6405:

Well this isn’t exactly a tickling competition is it?

No, but neither is it a battle of egos.

No progression, small maps, night forces capping everything, constantly flipping defense points. The only reason I play this game is so when other server players have nightmares its our little group chasing them down instead of the stay puff marshmallow man.

Rising Dusk.2408:

I’ve tried to be cordial during this match-up, and it saddens me that so many players and commanders have taken it upon themselves to brag, mistreat others, and create an atmosphere of animosity between all three of the servers. It is completely unnecessary, and worsens the experience for both the other servers and your own. I’m not calling anyone specific out, but you all know who you are.

Last night I led the EB force for some good times, and before I left with my group to go to IoJ’s BL, we had painted the whole of EB green. While at IoJ’s BL, we encountered a large group of DR which had no uplevels and all of which played together exceedingly well. We also kept harassing IoJ’s garrison just for our own personal edification; we almost had it! You guys had it well defended and well sieged, though, so I ended up pulling out to focus my attention elsewhere. The last thing I did for the night was to take Bay back from DR with the talented DR zerg defending it. I had to talk so much to my group to keep them from overextending and rallying you guys, it was intense. Eventually, we kept your group distracted for long enough to push into the lord’s room. Then, in a final battle the likes of which I can only compare to a boss battle, your no-uplevel zerg crashed into the Lord’s room and attacked us while we were there. We outnumbered you, but in all honesty, we had so many uplevels it felt like a fair fight. Eventually, we pushed you back and secured Bay. It was a great fight, and felt good. That’s the sort of thing I really enjoy in WvW, and it is those fights I will try to remember when we move on to T4, not the toxic animosity visible in this thread.

Good luck to you all in whatever tier you end up in.

Well this isn’t exactly a tickling competition is it?

DoggyPaddler.3586:

There are many groups in SBI just looking for a good fight, I personal don’t tag up unless the need to havent tagged up much this past few weeks though.

Bermier

If thats true how come we hardly ever see SBI in numbers around 5? The few times we do see it are people running straight towards a friendly zerg.

KinkyGiraffe.4123:

Much love DR
You guys had our EB keep upgraded to waypoint before your own? O.o

Rofl @ Specka….

adreamofcold.2071:

Man, you guys have no worries. I wish I could be this hilarious.

CLEARLY outplayed there dream

Still true as of this week:

“SBI is a server whos tactical options range from ‘Xerxes at the Battle of Thermopylae’ to ‘Russia at Stalingrad’”

;-)

I noticed a severe lack of Dynnen in this video…

Amurond.4590:

Elementalist Owner.7802:

You mean to tell me that Earendil’s entire rage post about “forum warriors” was really about this one person? I honestly doubt that, because Oozo’s posts (that you took completely out of context) were actually rather friendly — especially compared to Earendil’s hostile response. Tell me, where is the trolling and the endless repetition — in bold letters, don’t forget — of SBI being a zerg server? Where is the forum warriors from DR who are nowhere near as kind as the angels from TC, YB, and CD?

lol, cute back-pedal. You asked a question and I answered it. I’ll even quote your question and the answer again for you.

Elementalist Owner.7802:

Who ever said anything about SBI being a zerg server or being unskilled, etc? I’d really love to know.

Oozo.7856:

SBI is a zerg-mentality server.

Oozo.7856:

And, yes – compared to other servers I’ve fought SBI is a zerg server.

So what is the magical context where Oozo is not calling SBI a zerg server? This will be good.

Oh I see, you’ve refined your question now. Funny about that. As I said, nice back-pedal. You’ll have to read Earendil’s response I guess – he made the claim not I.

Though if I had to guess I’d just read through any of Oozo’s/Gab’s posts in this thread and if you aren’t “extremely biased” and full of “nonsense” I’m sure you will find what he’s talking about.

I think a better way to say it Oozo would be “SBI is a server whos tactical options range from ‘Xerxes at the Battle of Thermopylae’ to ‘Stalin at Stalingrad’”

How about instead of the engine trying to determine who gets hit with the aoe, and who doesn’t…just let it hit everyone? Seems like an easier calculation to me.

Removing it would balance out small man groups vs large man groups, leading to zerg busting squads (people that flank and punish the zerglings too durrrrpy to notice their flanks), leading to less but more effective zergs, leading to SUPER FUN IN WVW. AOE is balanced out by being able to dodge.

Gravy.7589:

Some DR that post such as Alcuin at least show a bit of class and aren’t full of excuses. I honestly believe others would complain to no end. Meh again enjoy and that EB map is so pretty. Good Job SBI.

Also, IOJ has been coming out in more numbers. I like it. Good showings on their part.

I bet a REAL T1 server would have twice as many points as we do right now!

Gravy.7589:

Hope you enjoyed your time in EB tonight DR XD. No new commanders or tranfers. The QQing just kitten us off a bit. Blame your forum warriors for lighting a fire under our bottoms.

Strong work bringing your massive numbers against uncoordinated defense. No seriously, no sarcasm at all, for reals…

OM NOM NOM NOM KT Commander!

Yea, I hope they fix it quickly =/

jkctmc.8754:

GW2 is not a skill based game. If you want that, go to League of Legends, or Starcraft 2. MMOs in general require little skill to play. That’s why they’re going back to the “one skill bar” style of play, that requires little thought to play.

ROFL

LoL is all about group composition. Literally. I had a 2300+ ELO team in S1.
SC2 is mainly about 25% builds, 25% race, 25% luck, 25% strategy. The only skill that comes into that ‘real time strategy’ is in microing, and even that has fallen to the side in many Korean matches. Flanking someone doesn’t give any bonuses, theres no cover mechanic at all.

Saying MMOs don’t take skill is pretty ignorant. Looking at other MMOs the only one that takes more skill to play is DAoC. This game playing as a hammer/GS guardian, I use every attack with both weapons, every fight. I use them when the cost effectiveness of that ability is at its maximum. I use all my utilities the same way.

You can see the people that don’t understand this game. The ‘double dodgers’; the ‘wait till I’m almost dead to use a low CD heal’ etc. Any game can be played by anyone now-a-days. The barriers to enter gaming has been lowered so much thanks to WoW/CoD that anyone can install a game on a computer and be decent.

TLDR: There is skill involved in this game, and LoL is garbage.

Yea, SBI doesn’t have numbers…LOL

I’ll have to ask them =P
But I think Oozo has a really nice computer, but tones down the graphics for optimal play.

These two videos should show how messed up culling is. Its better for the larger numbers, mass invis and stealth house is still screwing up culling. This is just one of the few problems in wvw right now. There aren’t too many, but they are glaringly bad ones. Maybe they are so pronounced is because there aren’t that many or that are what they are, or a combination.

In any case exhibit one: fight starts at 20 seconds in. The FTF Echo Squad scouts out the fight, engages at the right time, wiping our group. Along with their flank more people pour in under the commander tag to their west making culling even worse in the next video. Heres the link (the rest of the video is good too, so go ahead and watch it).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_583425&feature=iv&src_vid=Nu9JYRfvqVM&v=tIL1nve-PQc

Exhibit two: Fight starts for ADQQBsty at the beginning pushing out the PK zerg attacking the tower. Once we reach the ruins Madra calls out that there are some FTF looking to flank us. In the video Templanos (Oozo) says that he sees them. However the ones that initiated the fight, Echo Squad from FTF, was culling. At 17 seconds theres a small group (which is the commander and however many were with him) hiding in the southwest portion of the ruins, and a couple of people from the PK zerg retreating. It isn’t until right before Templanos drops that people being culling in. Most of this is after they dropped their CC/burst aoe into our group. Before the fight ends there are 9 people visible on the screen, when there was at least 20. Heres the video (The rest of the video is a few more fights with FTF Echo Squad, and FTF main group; feel free to watch it)

I understand that there is an update coming in March, and I hope that it fixes culling and also makes some solid changes to terrain/group mechanics and balance. This is a great game and its extremely frustrating when theres problems like this that make the game so frustrating.

Dr Acula.3496:

Oozo.7856:

Dr Acula.3496:

Dynnen.6405:

Dr Acula.3496:

Dynnen.6405:

selan.8354:

EvilSardine.9635:

Yep, confusion needs to be nerfed. Even my friend who has a mesmer says so. If you’re saying otherwise, then you’re silly and have ZERO experience fighting a good confusion mesmer. Atleast lower it to the damage it does in PvP. In WvW the damage is just absurd. Like 8 stacks or so of confusion on a warrior will do a ridiculous 5,000 damage just because he DODGE ROLLS….you know to avoid more confusion attacks.

We’ve done done tests using classes with as many condition removals as possible and the good mesmer can keep confusion on you the entire time. You can be a warrior with mending, shake it off (letting auto trait trigger then using it manually after), and rune of the soldier so conditions are removed when you use a shout, and you will still have constant confusion put on you. It’s too easy to apply.

It’s pretty obvious it needs to be tweaked in WvW. Damage is cut down by 50% in PvP. You cannot argue that it doesn’t need balancing if Anet already did it for PvP.

if u have gotten 5000 dmg then it was a crit and u must have run into th nullfield that was placed together with th bubble. we put both fields down at the same time so it causes more dmg.i dodge out of enemiy mesmers bubble all the time and don’t get that kind of dmg. whats your thoughness.

1) It CAN’T CRIT
2) 5k damage was a bit of an over-statement, but not much. Happy/Angry Unicorns a guy we fight quite often, has his 8 stack confusion hits that hit for 3400, and I’m pretty sure isn’t running the 2100 condition damage I’ve seen from our new mesmers.

Lastly. The next person that says “Confusion only kills bad players” needs to leave this thread. Its not the confusion that kills you, its the confusion that causes such heinous damage that prevents you from doing anything that kills you. Also, no one can say “I’ve never been hit by condition damage” so I guess we are all bad players.

I’m Angry Unicorns and I approve this message.

Brohug time imo =D

Can we please!? Last time I PMed you you replied with hatred and Distaste. It hurt mah feelinzzz

EDIT: And if they should nerf anything it should be Culling… That junk is OP

Don’t worry. At one time, Dynnen’s heart was filled with rage and anger towards me as well. It has something to do with having a red name over your head.

An actual quote from a few nights ago: “I’m going to rip that kitten guy’s throat out”

And then, he did… thought I was playing Age of Conan for a second there.

whaaaaa!?! Dynnen was on a diff server?

Heres the first time me and Oozo met in a game. First fight in the video. Prior to that I was trolling him on his youtube page because he featured a friend of mine getting roflstomped by him in the beginning of another video =D

And the throat I ripped out was this guy from EB that laughed after he and 10-20 killed me. ADQQBsty group came back and fended them off while reviving me, then we killed them. They came back again later and after we killed them we let this ranger live, then a few of us played hot-potato with his downed state and banish. After about the 4th knockback he stopped trying to revive =P

selan.8354:

dank.3680:

selan.8354:

Supersun.4603:

selan.8354:

selan.8354:

if u have gotten 5000 dmg then it was a crit and u must have run into th nullfield that was placed together with th bubble.

I ment crit from the other player, he basically hit himself crit.

You have no idea how confusion works, do you.

Oh i do, the higher the attack you are using on us the higher the dmg u are dealing on yourself if it is a projectile. I dont know if u can crit yourslef but i get pretty high numbers but not up to 5000 by dodging. I don’t know but vs certain players like thieves i get crazy numbers though. Btw I love rare veggie pizzas that increase condition dmg and duration.;-) (uh-oh next thing the op wants to nerf.

lol really? You play a glamour Mesmer and you don’t even have a clue how it works.. Amazing..

oh have u? have u seen the numbers u get with feedback? people using projectiles hit themself as it reflects them. the confuion ticks are pretty much different but it is still the same thing like hitting yourself the more u attack the more u hit yourself thats how it works. chaos armore, veil, portals, nullfield and feedback. but like i said condition dmg by itself doesent need to be nerfed as without any combo or the right trait it is nowhere near as effectife. btw ENglish is not my foirst language and it is really hard to explain this properly u have to try out a glamour build for yourself and then lets see.

Sry that English wasn’t ur first language. But we’re not talking about reflecting projectiles, we’re talking about confusion. Hense all the “You have no idea what you’re talking about comments”.

Dr Acula.3496:

Dynnen.6405:

selan.8354:

EvilSardine.9635:

Yep, confusion needs to be nerfed. Even my friend who has a mesmer says so. If you’re saying otherwise, then you’re silly and have ZERO experience fighting a good confusion mesmer. Atleast lower it to the damage it does in PvP. In WvW the damage is just absurd. Like 8 stacks or so of confusion on a warrior will do a ridiculous 5,000 damage just because he DODGE ROLLS….you know to avoid more confusion attacks.

We’ve done done tests using classes with as many condition removals as possible and the good mesmer can keep confusion on you the entire time. You can be a warrior with mending, shake it off (letting auto trait trigger then using it manually after), and rune of the soldier so conditions are removed when you use a shout, and you will still have constant confusion put on you. It’s too easy to apply.

It’s pretty obvious it needs to be tweaked in WvW. Damage is cut down by 50% in PvP. You cannot argue that it doesn’t need balancing if Anet already did it for PvP.

if u have gotten 5000 dmg then it was a crit and u must have run into th nullfield that was placed together with th bubble. we put both fields down at the same time so it causes more dmg.i dodge out of enemiy mesmers bubble all the time and don’t get that kind of dmg. whats your thoughness.

1) It CAN’T CRIT
2) 5k damage was a bit of an over-statement, but not much. Happy/Angry Unicorns a guy we fight quite often, has his 8 stack confusion hits that hit for 3400, and I’m pretty sure isn’t running the 2100 condition damage I’ve seen from our new mesmers.

Lastly. The next person that says “Confusion only kills bad players” needs to leave this thread. Its not the confusion that kills you, its the confusion that causes such heinous damage that prevents you from doing anything that kills you. Also, no one can say “I’ve never been hit by condition damage” so I guess we are all bad players.

I’m Angry Unicorns and I approve this message.

Brohug time imo =D

Supersun.4603:

selan.8354:

selan.8354:

if u have gotten 5000 dmg then it was a crit and u must have run into th nullfield that was placed together with th bubble.

I ment crit from the other player, he basically hit himself crit.

You have no idea how confusion works, do you.

And there was much face-palming…

Dhampyr.2104:

Dynnen.6405:

selan.8354:

EvilSardine.9635:

Yep, confusion needs to be nerfed. Even my friend who has a mesmer says so. If you’re saying otherwise, then you’re silly and have ZERO experience fighting a good confusion mesmer. Atleast lower it to the damage it does in PvP. In WvW the damage is just absurd. Like 8 stacks or so of confusion on a warrior will do a ridiculous 5,000 damage just because he DODGE ROLLS….you know to avoid more confusion attacks.

We’ve done done tests using classes with as many condition removals as possible and the good mesmer can keep confusion on you the entire time. You can be a warrior with mending, shake it off (letting auto trait trigger then using it manually after), and rune of the soldier so conditions are removed when you use a shout, and you will still have constant confusion put on you. It’s too easy to apply.

It’s pretty obvious it needs to be tweaked in WvW. Damage is cut down by 50% in PvP. You cannot argue that it doesn’t need balancing if Anet already did it for PvP.

if u have gotten 5000 dmg then it was a crit and u must have run into th nullfield that was placed together with th bubble. we put both fields down at the same time so it causes more dmg.i dodge out of enemiy mesmers bubble all the time and don’t get that kind of dmg. whats your thoughness.

1) It CAN’T CRIT
2) 5k damage was a bit of an over-statement, but not much. Happy/Angry Unicorns a guy we fight quite often, has his 8 stack confusion hits that hit for 3400, and I’m pretty sure isn’t running the 2100 condition damage I’ve seen from our new mesmers.

Lastly. The next person that says “Confusion only kills bad players” needs to leave this thread. Its not the confusion that kills you, its the confusion that causes such heinous damage that prevents you from doing anything that kills you. Also, no one can say “I’ve never been hit by condition damage” so I guess we are all bad players.

Confusion only kills bad players. And you’re right, it doesn’t make you a bad if you get hit by confusion… Only if you die to it.

Well, if I can’t cast a heal or clenase my conditions for fear of taking the damage from the ‘Eight Stack’ then die then the confusion did kill me.

selan.8354:

EvilSardine.9635:

Yep, confusion needs to be nerfed. Even my friend who has a mesmer says so. If you’re saying otherwise, then you’re silly and have ZERO experience fighting a good confusion mesmer. Atleast lower it to the damage it does in PvP. In WvW the damage is just absurd. Like 8 stacks or so of confusion on a warrior will do a ridiculous 5,000 damage just because he DODGE ROLLS….you know to avoid more confusion attacks.

We’ve done done tests using classes with as many condition removals as possible and the good mesmer can keep confusion on you the entire time. You can be a warrior with mending, shake it off (letting auto trait trigger then using it manually after), and rune of the soldier so conditions are removed when you use a shout, and you will still have constant confusion put on you. It’s too easy to apply.

It’s pretty obvious it needs to be tweaked in WvW. Damage is cut down by 50% in PvP. You cannot argue that it doesn’t need balancing if Anet already did it for PvP.

if u have gotten 5000 dmg then it was a crit and u must have run into th nullfield that was placed together with th bubble. we put both fields down at the same time so it causes more dmg.i dodge out of enemiy mesmers bubble all the time and don’t get that kind of dmg. whats your thoughness.

1) It CAN’T CRIT
2) 5k damage was a bit of an over-statement, but not much. Happy/Angry Unicorns a guy we fight quite often, has his 8 stack confusion hits that hit for 3400, and I’m pretty sure isn’t running the 2100 condition damage I’ve seen from our new mesmers.

Lastly. The next person that says “Confusion only kills bad players” needs to leave this thread. Its not the confusion that kills you, its the confusion that causes such heinous damage that prevents you from doing anything that kills you. Also, no one can say “I’ve never been hit by condition damage” so I guess we are all bad players.

Touche’ salesman…

kitten it, this culling is out of hand. Enemies appearing and vanishing at random, teammates doing the same (especially when one is down). Be back next week.

Lol, IOJ Garrison. Couldn’t even activate my skills and hardly saw any enemies in that giant zerg. Well played anet…

Mike.7320:

Teamkiller.4315:

Mike.7320:

Teamkiller.4315:

Mike.7320:

Furgerat.7842:

Adaneshade.2409:

ShinjoNaomi.1896:

Because people like to complain online…

WvW is about big armies fighting big armies. Do smaller ‘havoc squads’ and ‘kill teams’ have a place? Absolutely.
But, if said small team runs into a 30+ person zerg, and tries to stand their ground (for whatever reason) then the odds should not be in their favor.
Sure, skill can help. Good tactics on the part of the small team can help. And hell, despite the odds, the small team /could/ manage to come out on top. It’s not an impossibility.
But that should never be an automatic thing, even if it is just because of sheer overwhelming numbers.
Zergs are here to stay, whether you like them or not. If you never want to deal with the fact they you might be outnumbered and overwhelmed, then sPvP is over that way…

Even the games mentioned used “extend groups” to wipe superior numbers. No one “stood their ground”.

The issue in GW2 for elite 5-mans, currently, is threefold:

1.) Causing a player to overextend does nothing as they are revived by the wave flooding over them (dead player should not be rezzable from defeated in combat, downed state, sure, but not totally defeated.).

2.) The current rendering issues (mistakenly called culling) make it impossible to tell exactly where the “front” of the pursuing zerg is. This makes it nearly impossible to effectively “kite” the whole zerg.

3.) Aoe caps make it so that AOE CC applied, only affects 5 players. If groups could snare an entire zerg with an aoe, a 5-man, if well played, could force a zerg to “extend” making the numbers more manageable. They’d then only have to deal with a few overextenders, then rinse and repeat.

its as easy as 1,2,3………………………

good post sir.

Point #1 is as wrong as it gets. doing a 5v20 fight as a roaming guild, causing players to over extend is the way to wipe the zerg.

Only if the rest don’t pursue you.

Also, your assumption about 30 players having no skill is wrong. You see zergs usually form because a commander is on the map calling people to rally on him to achieve an objective. At least in the higher tiers it is like that. Hence, those 30 are going to be composed of a variety of people. Some will be absolutely horrid, but that’s OK because they’re new and learning (or maybe they’re experienced and still bad, but everyone has the right to play the game, so it’s still fine because they’re usually still helping in some way). Most will be OK players, and a few will be good. Why should a five man group have ANY advantage over them in the open field?

I totally agree with lowering downed state health and getting rid of resurrecting dead players, but the idea of nerfing a zerg just cause they’re a zerg is silly.

Where did the nerfing a zerg idea come from? If anet nerfs zergs(?) then who would roaming guilds fight.

You would fight nerfed zergs, after all you seem to want to (unrealistically) farm zergs like movie heroes do.

Sorry, there are real players behind those _ invader tags, not ai. If you want to win 5v30 PvE is that-a-way.

You dont seem to know who OG players are. We are THE zerg fighters, no one matches us in skill.

Rofl

ShinjoNaomi.1896:

Because people like to complain online…

WvW is about big armies fighting big armies. Do smaller ‘havoc squads’ and ‘kill teams’ have a place? Absolutely.
But, if said small team runs into a 30+ person zerg, and tries to stand their ground (for whatever reason) then the odds should not be in their favor.
Sure, skill can help. Good tactics on the part of the small team can help. And hell, despite the odds, the small team /could/ manage to come out on top. It’s not an impossibility.
But that should never be an automatic thing, even if it is just because of sheer overwhelming numbers.
Zergs are here to stay, whether you like them or not. If you never want to deal with the fact they you might be outnumbered and overwhelmed, then sPvP is over that way…

Fairly certain people aren’t wanting zergs to just vanish. They just have too much going for them right now. Zerg revives, 5 man aoe damage cap, culling, small zones, etc. These things all benefit the zergs and should be balanced out. Currently being in a zerg has only ‘pros’ and no ‘cons’. Players need to be punished for making stupid mistakes, like not paying attention in a zerg and getting flanked, over-extending, making poor maneuvering choices. Zerg surfing is sometimes part of the game, but making it the focus through intentional or unintentional game choices/design is quite unfortunate.

Here are some chilling words from the guy who helped make DAoC, take heed brothers!

http://citystateentertainment.com/2013/02/foundational-principle-3/

Polismassa.6740:

Anatolian Turk.4057:

Dynnen.6405:

How many kills does everyone have in wvw?

http://i.imgur.com/L8fO7iN.jpg

im not sure how many kills i have but i like your armor set. if you dont mind, can you please tell me where and the name of the armor your wearing on your guardian? thank you

He’s wearing heavy nightmare armor from the Twilight Arbor dungeon, the reason that he looks so metallic is the effect of the legendary hammer “juggernaut”. Obviously he is not holding the juggernaut in that pic, but i’m assuming that he must have just switched off of it.

Yea, hes right. Helm/Shoulders/Chest/Legs from TA, Gloves and Boots from T3 cultural. And Juggernaut is in my 2ndary slot, sometimes the metallic effect bugs out when I swap weapons.

muylaetrix.2096:

Teamkiller.4315:

In very very VERY few games is it probable to beat 3 times your own number in OPEN FIELD, even with superior skill. Most cases where this happen is where players die very quickly (in gw2 this is not the case) and even then it’s not that often.

in DAoC and Warhammer (not to the same extend as DAoC, but still majorly) Skill (and rank) > numbers and winning vs FAR superior numbers was common for the best guild groups. those were the only 2 games with a decent ‘w3’-esque model imho. every other game that has had a similar system (at least of the games i played) only used the ‘we have great ’realm vs realm’ as a salespoint with no content or flawed content to back it up and sell some extra copies.

Teamkiller.4315:

Actually, this applies to real life too. If 3 people jumped one martial arts master, unless this martial arts master can easily lift 400-500 lbs (roughly three peoples’ weight) they’re going to crush him (literally, they could just sit on him and he wouldn’t be able to do much), even if they have no fighting skill at all, just the most basic form of coordination.

well you obsiously think in terms of ‘sumo’ where size mathers and not in terms of ‘aikido’ which is all about technique and not about size/ and doing bench presses. and you don’t mention the person with the revolver taking out 10 enemies equally armed at 100 range because he is a good shooter and the 10 couldn’t hit a barn door at the same range. and in real life, a hand grenade is not ‘capped’ at wounding only 5 people.

Teamkiller.4315:

And it’s not as hard in Gw2 as you think. If by open field you mean truly open, then no, 3 times your number should absolutely crush you (short of you being a military genius, those of which are in short supply) by simple virtue of being able to very very easily surround you.

all depends upon play style and game mechanics if it is possible.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AV9qnUsZOcI

^^ good show of the few crushing the many (and i was amongst the many there, but didn’t die).

Teamkiller.4315:

Also i disagree that no other game rewards numbers over skill like gw2.

everyone his opinion, fair enough

Its too bad I can’t bear children, cause I’d bear yours.

Lol, I just love the fact that people assume that if you get hit with a confusion tick you’re a bad player.

How bout them glass houses eh?

Lol, post some SCs guys =P

How many kills does everyone have in wvw?

http://i.imgur.com/L8fO7iN.jpg

Dhampyr.2104:

Smitten.3076:

Dhampyr.2104:

Smitten.3076:

It’s like everything else that’s out of whack with this, and every game with pvp ( ever ) ; there are the logical few who understand when somethings to strong. ( Even on their own class ) I’m not sure why anyone feels a condition which limits actions taken , should hit for 3-5k compared to every other condition out there. It’s already a dual purpose condition in that if forces a cleanse or inaction otherwise : Damage ( and lots of it when built). Compared to every other condition out there? Seems pretty cut and dry to me, and heck I have access to the cheese confusion spec.

Every other condition’s ticks are guaranteed to happen unless cleansed. ONLY with confusion does a target have more options. Condition removal down? Just quit spamming buttons and take zero dmg. Give me another burn so I can kill good players as well as the bad ones (something that is hard to do with confusion), and I’ll gladly quit arguing.

If you think taking no action is an “option” in a WvW fight, then there’s really no point in me discussing anything with you.

You’re right. There’s no point, you don’t get it. A stun forces you to take no action. So does a fear. A knockback takes control of your toon away. With confusion, you have options. You can still do things, you just have to choose. So it’s not even as strong as a stun.

And, to say it again, 3-5k ticks are NOT the norm, even when specced/geared for it.

Your confusion stack combo isn’t hitting for that? L2P situation obviously

EnRohbi.2187:

Smitten.3076:

EnRohbi.2187:

Smitten.3076:

It’s like everything else that’s out of whack with this, and every game with pvp ( ever ) ; there are the logical few who understand when somethings to strong. ( Even on their own class ) I’m not sure why anyone feels a condition which limits actions taken , should hit for 3-5k compared to every other condition out there. It’s already a dual purpose condition in that if forces a cleanse or inaction otherwise : Damage ( and lots of it when built). Compared to every other condition out there? Seems pretty cut and dry to me, and heck I have access to the cheese confusion spec.

So what?
You want to nerf confusion damage and make it so the condition means nothing?

If it doesn’t do so much damage that you have to take action to remove it, it would be completely pointless to apply it. The point of the condition is to do enough damage that the person has to react. Not so that you have confusion on you but just keep mashing your skill buttons and don’t die.

It’s a punishment condition, not a dot condition.

The reason a condition that limits action taken should do 3-5,000 damage is because the damage is HOW it limits action taken. If you lower that, you remove the purpose of using confusion. Which I can tell you, is nearly worthless in sPvP except, like in wvw, when used against bad players. And even then, they have to REALLY not be paying attention before it actually does anything to them.

I’m going to use you as an example, sorry in advance, it’s not personal.

WHY do you people who immediately jump on the “don’t nerf me bro” bandwagon always instantly assume calls for nerf imply we want the -whatever- made useless? Why is this a staple of every bloody argument in response? No one ever stated they wanted it useless, we stated it needs to be nerfed. There is a world of difference between the two implications, confusion needs to be brought in line with current WvW balance. It’s to strong of a force multiplier, it’s to strong of a condition. You can attempt to justify it all you like, but you’re wrong and you know it.

Confusion :
-Force Cleanse
or
-Force Inactivity
otherwise
-Damage ( Sometimes in excess of 3-5k)

Compare that to every other condition in the game; confusion wins in damage and utility. The issue with Confusion is it absolutely requires the player affected to deal with it first, before escaping, healing, dodging, attacking, or retreating he -must- deal with confusion first. When confusion was hitting for 1k damage this was still the case, you still had to handle confusion … but there was a middle ground, you could pay the tax and perform another action. It was still costly, it just wasn’t crushing as it is now.

I’m still of the mind that confusion damage was inadvertently buffed and will be nerfed with an “oops we didn’t mean to do that, you guys are silly if you think that was balanced” message.

If confusion hits for 1k, you would have to spam like 20 skills in under 5 seconds to die from it.

That is a useless condition.
Why would anyone waste their Condition Removal dealing with something that will probably not even do 10% damage to their health before it expires?

The people calling for confusion nerfs don’t seem to realize that it is a VERY SHORT condition effect. There are zero classes with zero builds that are able to maintain 10+ stacks of confusion for an entire fight.

And let’s be honest,
If you are dying to anything less than 10 stacks of confusion, you are doing something very wrong and you are, unfortunately, the type of player that confusion is meant to kill.

You can attempt to justify that confusion shouldn’t kill you all you want, but you’re wrong and you know it.

Its pretty obvious that you aren’t putting all your traits/stats/utilities into applying conditions. Confusion hits way harder than that on most of these condition speced mesmers. Or maybe you are talking about 1 stack of confusion, and not the 3+ that I usually have on me throughout combat. I can’t tell if you’re trolling or not…pretty sure u are.

Duel is still on DB? Thought you guys were tsym groupies

EnRohbi.2187:

Smitten.3076:

It’s like everything else that’s out of whack with this, and every game with pvp ( ever ) ; there are the logical few who understand when somethings to strong. ( Even on their own class ) I’m not sure why anyone feels a condition which limits actions taken , should hit for 3-5k compared to every other condition out there. It’s already a dual purpose condition in that if forces a cleanse or inaction otherwise : Damage ( and lots of it when built). Compared to every other condition out there? Seems pretty cut and dry to me, and heck I have access to the cheese confusion spec.

So what?
You want to nerf confusion damage and make it so the condition means nothing?

If it doesn’t do so much damage that you have to take action to remove it, it would be completely pointless to apply it. The point of the condition is to do enough damage that the person has to react. Not so that you have confusion on you but just keep mashing your skill buttons and don’t die.

It’s a punishment condition, not a dot condition.

The reason a condition that limits action taken should do 3-5,000 damage is because the damage is HOW it limits action taken. If you lower that, you remove the purpose of using confusion. Which I can tell you, is nearly worthless in sPvP except, like in wvw, when used against bad players. And even then, they have to REALLY not be paying attention before it actually does anything to them.

Christ…would you even be able to play if your F1/F2 spam was balanced? You’re telling me that you only throw confusion out and stare at them? Or dont do anything else while this player you’re fighting is basically CCed for the duration? And worthless in Spvp? Seems like a really effective way to defend a point…ohh wait it is. Gtfo

I run a pretty high amount of condition cleansing (V in Valor, IX in Virtues, Lyssa runes/Renewed Focus) due to the amount of it I get hit with mid combat. A mesmer that isn’t completely kitten can keep 1-3 stacks on me most of the fight and good ones keep it even higher. But hey just say “ kitten perma noobs” cause that makes sense.

I understand that the amount of condition cleansing should be a little lower than condition application, but there was a reason it was nerfed in SPvP and not in PVE. That is because mobs don’t do as many actions in PVE so the damage should be higher. Most people saying its fine are assuming its the only condition on you from the mesmer, which is a bit funny. If your confusion isn’t doing any damage in SPvP or WvW and you’re not covering it with other conditions…you’re doing it wrong.

AGAIN…this is mostly a problem with culling and hardly any dev focus on wvw.

Oozo.7856:

Bones.5762:

Smitten.3076:

I’ve always said Confusion was sleeper OP, it seems people have finally caught on ( some balance changes inadvertently buffed it ). Confusion is currently to strong, as has been stated before in coordinated groups its a huge force multiplier. It’s not simply Mezmers that are the issue, Engineers as well.

So signed … ANet needs to nerf confusion damage, there’s no reason a condition that punishes you for action should do the damage it does, nor do I think it’s intended.

umm, if i remember correctly, the engineer has 2 skills that can even apply confusion, 3 stacks if i remember right, so if anybody is running an engineer trying to do a confusion build is probably not a very viable build. Yes condition dmg engineers are still strong but that’s because they can apply other conditions like poisons/burns/bleeds but their skill set isn’t focused on one thing where they can just effectively spam one type of condition such as a necro spaming bleeds.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Static_Shot
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Concussion_Bomb
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pry_Bar

If an Asura, also:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Confusing_Speech
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pain_Inverter

Wait… you are the same guy who said this:

@oozo
If you don’t understand the class you’re fighting, learn it instead of complaining about them

How ironic. But wait, you also said:

i can say that mesmers have the lowest health pool

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Health

@bones

lLobo.7960:

Turn off your autoatacks.

Not the problem. Here it is broken down for ya.

1) Can’t stop the clones effectively. Most of the time its difficult to kill them due to culling/chasing down the real mesmer. I personally can’t drop 4-5k damage into the clones to get rid of them quickly, even if I could see them
2) Unless you are specifically looking for it in the mess of conditions that appear 4-7 at a time fighting in small group fights, you won’t really see it until after you’ve swung or used a utility.
3) It takes you out of the fight and turns you into a non-combatant. Once you have that many stacks of confusion and are out of cleansing you basically have to try to escape combat while avoiding direct damage from the d/d eles/thieves.
4) to say that a condition mesmer doesn’t have any other damage is pretty short sighted. Staff with Sword/Scepter/Focus/Torch puts out a lot of extra non-clone conditions/utility/support/damage.

As with most problems in wvw it comes down to culling. If I could see the mesmer clones rushing at me it would be excessively helpful. However having decoy/mirror image/dodge clone/mass invis/etc its really obnoxious. I was in the middle of an enemy zerg chasing down a giant norn mesmer when he popped mirror image with a dodge. The clones were there, however the 20+ enemies that were surrounding me immediately vanished. So…yea that was fun, but at least I kittening dodged the shatter combo!

Bones.5762:

Wizardauz.3761:

Guardians just dont beat mesmers who use confusion. Too many conditions.

Even with a full shout, runes of the soldier, purity traited, signet of resolve using guardian WILL HAVE TROUBLE. I know i have one.

Fighting against Maguuma i learned dueling mesmers on my guardian, both switching off from a Triple Meditation spec to a Full Shout AH hammer spec.

You HAVE to turn your auto attack off.

You have to “pace” the mesmer. Pace the confusion, watch you conditions. The confusion is the only real dmg. The best thing they have at that point is stacking bleeds, but again you can leave that up to purity or the signet heal and passively regen and dodge heal AFTER.

Dodge fields at all costs. But good confusion 1v1 mesmers dont use fields.

Bait their shatters, dodge through them (usually getting behind them) condi removal into attack rotation.

If they’re rocking a staff they’ve got an 8 sec teleport. Save Leaps, Blinks and burst for after the blink.

If they’re using a sword, bait the invul attack, get behind or to the sides. Its like 100b’s but better with the invul, still the weakness is that they’ve immobilized their moving and turning ability.

The mesmers using heavy confusion builds dont rely on phatasm’s as much (as far as im concerned) but REALIZE that the “real” looking mesmer dont do crap for dmg, i think they just apply some condi’s if you leave them. The only mesmer you really have to watch out for is the purple looking ones. They do the dmg.

again, its really all the pacing.

When i fight confusion mesmers, and i see anything more then 2-3 stacks and am riding lower then 75%, just take your hand off the keyboard and walk away from him with W or with your mouse. Its generally a trap, just make them blow it.

Here’s somebody who understands how to fight a mesmer. I having 4 different lvl 80’s who i’ve played with a great amount each, i can say that mesmers have the lowest health pool, but many great tricks to increase survivability.

@oozo
If you don’t understand the class you’re fighting, learn it instead of complaining about them, the only class that I can only honestly say i had trouble with before they patched it was the burst GC thief when they could pull out 13k dmg in like 3-5sec and culling was still super bad.

Hear or see a stealth, u dodge after half a second…pretty simple. Play a Guard/Ranger/Engie without going mostly into defensive stats in wvw group combat and let me know how that turns out. Besides, theres a reason why some of us quit our mesmers

There have been good points for and against confusion, but heres the problem. As far as confusion goes its a massive ‘force multiplier’. By force multiplier I mean they are able to take a large number of people out of a fight numerous times in combat. Theres literally no other class in the game that can do this. Through the amount of hard/soft CC, snares/roots, stun breaks, high survivability, more invulnerability than most classes, they can survive longer, do more damage, and knock people out of a fight. Add stealth and culling spam on top of it and its completely stupid.

Confusion is supposed to augment your own damage, but currently its forcing players to not participate in combat and die, or participate and die. When you get the big stacks on you, with plenty of condition duration, you are out of the fight for a long time.

Ranger: Leap finisher through fire and water fields with heal and torch skills.
Ele: Blast finisher in fire/water/air/ice
thief: leap/blast into shadow/poison/ethereal fields
engie: projectile/blast through a lot of fields depending on kits
necro: blast/projectile through shadow/poison fields
mesmer: leap/whirl through light/ethereal fields
warrior: blast/leap/whirl/projectile through fire field

I’m sure I’m missing some, but thats what I can think of off the top of my head