Guild Wars 2

Mesket.5728:

You sure about that? please take a look at the meta… what are the best teams doing? The same thing just faster. The faster you can complete something, the better you are at playing. Unfortunately we come to this.

Yes, quite sure.

If a speedrun team is doing a dungeon path three times faster than you are do you not get any rewards for doing that dungeon path or something? Have they been in the dungeon first, taken all the loot and left you with nothing perhaps?

PVE is not competitive unless you are in an elite team striving for world records. You can go in and do the dungeon in non zerk gear using non meta builds, get the rewards and move on.

People seem to be upset that their facetanks are able to do the content but not do it as quickly as full glass cannon players. Which is rather amusing really.

Sirendor.1394:

Fenrir.3609:

Why should those able to use higher risk dps gear have the same kill speed as those in crutch loltank gear?

Because zerk isn’t ‘higher risk’ at all. If you can dodge on a PVT warrior, you can dodge on PPF warrior, it doesn’t matter how high your armour is. In fact, it’s easier with PPF because it takes less time to kill the boss, meaning you have to do less dodges than someone with PVT gear.

Skill on zerk is at the same level as skill on any other gear set, and some gear sets are probably harder than zerk, for example cleric, just because it’s lower damage.

1. Yes it is higher risk and yes it takes more skill to use. Your average player is less likely to be able to use a meta zerk build than something else more forgiving.

You seem to be implying that because capable players are able to use zerk with little risk that the build/set has equal or lower risk in general. Which is patently false.

2. It’s not hard/er to use clerics.

3. The crux of your initial post was used to try and argue that “there wouldn’t be a meta”. I pointed out why that was false. You seem to have ignored that. I take it you realise your mistake and concede the fact that clearly there would always be a meta for specific content and that clearly the idea of making everything perfectly balanced and “efficient” across all content is simply a ridiculous one.

Sirendor.1394:

Wrong, wrong, and wrong.

The PURPOSE for BALANCING is to make sure there ISN’T A META.

Make everything as efficient as everything else and be done with it.

Please tell me you are not being serious. You can use all the CAPITALS you want, it doesn’t make your post anymore correct.

There will always be an optimal approach to specific content and as such there will always be a meta for said content.

There will always be group synergies that work better than others and as such there will always be a meta.

Furthermore the notion that everything should have the same “efficiency” is rather daft. Why should those able to use higher risk dps gear have the same kill speed as those in crutch loltank gear? Moreover efficient at what exactly pray tell? How do you balance every single build and gear stat combo (and combination of them within a group setting) to be exactly the same efficiency across all content and all game modes?

Sera.6250:

Just curious on a couple of things, haven’t played in a while

Why did Restorative Strength get dropped from Strength 2 in favor of more vitality?
And what’s with the use of signets over utility now?

From a dps pve perspective Great Fortitude is chosen over Restorative Strength and over Dual Wielding because you never want to use your Healing Signet and camping GS does more dps than switching to a secondary set of A/M (which is also why Fast Hands is dropped in the new meta build and why A/S or S/W is often preferred over the old A/M build).

So the constant vit uptime is of more use than the other two options, even in a dps build.

In terms of signets, they have always been used (Rage/Fury). Banners and FGJ are the primary utilities though and ofc you swap stuff in and out dependant upon the situation.

Not this kitten again…

1. Even if you nerf zerk into oblivion something will always be the “meta” and people will look to utilize that.

2. People using the LFG tool or otherwise trying to group with like minded, efficient and experienced players is not “toxic” at all. In fact it is the people who continually whine about this kind of thing that drags the community into the gutter.

3. Regardless as to what some seem to be implying, the fact is that using full glass zerk is more difficult than other approaches and does take more skill.

Now some seem to be under the impression that it should require more skill, well i’m all for that, but I wonder, just who the heck they think they are to be the arbiters of how much skill other people should have in order to use a build type/gear set?

What happens when the difficulty to use zerk is increased by 10% but a few people continue to cry about LFG zerk groups? Let’s increase it some more? How about another 10%? Oh wait, Timmy the lolfacetank still thinks zerk is too easy, let’s make it another 10% harder so he can sleep better at night when using his over9000 too much toughness build.

4. 99.99% of the content is faceroll easy with zero meaningful kill timers and/or is able to be done in non zerk gear. The introduction of kill time events like Liadri is done in order to push people out of their comfort zone. Even then such events were a cakewalk in condi gear, as is pretty much everything else.

A “tanking” warrior that focuses on high dps? I’m not sure what you mean by that tbh. Your survive is better coming from burst and active mitigation.

6/4/0/4/0 or 6/6/0/2/0 (group, full zerk + scholar runes) camp GS or 6/6/0/0/2 (solo, full zerk + strength runes) camp GS are the current meta builds.

For more detail look at the guides by creator, Nike: http://www.dtguilds.com/forum/m/6563292/viewthread/12497977-dnt-warrior-build-41514

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Are you sure about that?

As it is relevant I’ll add a quick answer to that one, yes. In certain situations (as is the case of solo condi warr) the dps and kill speed is closer than you seem to think.

#1: That is pretty much true of every kind of gear that isn’t assassin/zerker/rampager. This also isn’t a problem. At all. There’s nothing wrong with being more durable than the least durable gear set up in the game.

The point I made was that you stating that “zerkers can solo lupi” is not really a reasonable counter point when someone points out that condi users more often than not have greater survive and put themselves at less risk than zerk users.

Again, those warriors unable to melee zerk down Liadri could easily cheese her to death via a condi spec. Why is that? It’s because it is easier to use whilst also offering a great deal of damage.

You are right, it isn’t a problem tha other gear/builds have more survive than full glass melee zerk. There is though clearly a problem when people are suggesting changes to damage potential or otherwise recommending a dps increase for such builds.

#3: The windup is a severe limitation of the condi build which prevents condis from ever having the same DPS as direct damage builds. Removing the cap won’t ever change this. I fail to see how letting everyone do less damage and less DPS in more survivable gear will be “ridiculous”.

You seem to be overstating the amount of wind up needed and understating both the amount of damage condi can do (hence the original “yes” answer at the top of the post) and the risk/survive profile compared to zerk. Just removing the cap and increasing condi damage would indeed make it “ridiculous” from both a pve and especially from a pvp perspective.

The reason why the zerker meta works is because passive defenses are useless in many regards. I already said that zerker (and by extensions, assassin and rampager) has less damage per effective HP than soldiers gear. This isn’t a problem, because currently the higher effective HP of soldier’s gear contributes nothing to the fight.

I understand the zerk meta, I main zerk meta builds. I’m unsure why you keep bringing PVT type gear up, I have at no point been talking about the merits of lolfacetank sponge builds. Condi is able to apply dps when actively defending, far more so than the others. See the Liadri fight again, people do not stand in her face and whale on her because they have the extra toughness from their condi gear, they run around whilst at the same time applying massive dps pressure.

Whilst at the same time that added passive defense is an additional crutch safety layer regardless as to how negligable it might be.

Also, the peak condi set everyone mentions is the Warrior, but the warrior causes its condi damage at melee, not range.

The primary bulk of your damage comes in at melee range but you can apply significant condi pressure at range and more importantly you are constantly damaging your enemy (for large amounts of damage) when both actively dodging and also moving outside of melee range. Moreover you are able to achieve high damage and good kill speed with greater base defense than a full glass melee zerk has.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Why would the encounters be ridiculous?

Because you could spam constantly ticking damage whilst actively mitigating damage/running about and from a base of decent base survivability.

Condition specs do not have “base” survivability over zerker specs. The only difference in survivalbility is from gear.

So gear and the ability to apply constant pressure outside of melee range. i.e. greater base survive than someone in full glass gear, with a full glass spec, in melee range.

There is a reason people who struggled with Liadri as zerk warrior often cheesed it to death via a condi spec. It is because you could apply plenty of damage whilst running about like a loon.

Rabid based condition users can in some situations get to 25 stacks of bleed. They can not maintain this over several minutes, the base they can maintain is about 20 stacks, with brief surges to 25.

Rabid users can do significant damage, if you had a group of them pushing the condi damage past the current cap, then boss encounters could potentially be even more trivial than they already are.

If the condition cap was removed then Anet could also implement a Condition damage/Condition Duration/Precision gear set which would be the zerker equivalent of condition damage. Then with a slight adjustment to duration of conditions they would deal the same dps as power builds and have the same survivalbility.

If the condition cap was removed and other mechanisms brought in to counter any issues then I wouldn’t have a problem with that. But introducing the above mentioned gear would not work like that. The dps potential in relation to survivability would still be greater given the fact that the damage would be constantly applied even when the players happened to be out of range of the mob/actively mitigating damage.

twoscoops.6913:

By the way, OP wasn’t being sarcastic. This quest gives access to a nifty little consumable.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

1. The fact that “zerkers can solo lupi” or that seasoned zerks don’t drop like flies due to active mitigation does not in fact address the issue that condi builds often have greater base “survive” and are in less direct danger then melee glass cannon builds.

2. I am aware how dps works and I am also aware of the “need for speed”.

3. With the correct wind up, against boss mobs, condi builds (some) can have a comparable dps and kill speed rate to direct damage when considering the solo environment. That is with greater survive. Without the cap the encounters would be ridiculous.

Now in a group situation that is not the case but should the dps cap be removed, then the damage in relation to the survive given by the gear/build would simply be too great, hence OP.

UnitedChaos.8364:

Let’s delve deeper. If there was a 1v1 between two players, same class, same build, equal experience; but one uses F&N. We both agree that the F&N user would win, correct? So does double clicking an item makes that player better? I don’t feel that is very skillful.

So customization options should be decreased simply because someone cba to use the F&N available to them and as such that have a statistical deficiency against someone who has bothered?

In the same situation the guy with ascended will have a statistical edge over the guy with exo, or the guy with exo will have one over the guy with rares. Or the level 80 over the level 70. Now unless we are going to remove gear and levels as a factor in wvw and make it like spvp, then the idea of removing F&N is somewhat odd.

I like the customization they offer.

In terms of making content “easy”, the vast majority of the content is already easy, with or without them. If we are going to remove anything that makes it “easier” then are we also going to remove ascended gear, superior runes and sigils? Most of which is not actually needed to complete the content and is instead used to do it more efficiently?

In terms of “balance” with regards to wvw. Well unless you are going to make it like spvp and remove gear disparity altogether, i’m unsure as to the point really. Moreover, if someone has not taken the opportunity to utilize them, well it’s really their fault and no one elses.

In terms of “balance” from a design perspective. I’d rather Anet learned how to balance them instead of removing them altogether.

Morsus.5106:

soapingwet.4810:

…Ok, so bleeding should be able to stack from multiple sources to the point it can kill you in 2 seconds?

Yes. If people can stack that many bleeds, the same amount of people could kill you in 2 seconds if they were full DPS.

Except you can apply those conditions whilst having more survive and being in a less precarious position than those going full glass melee.

People are going to have a far harder time landing melee dps on you than people dropping condi bombs on you from distance.

I’m not entirely sure quite how people think a situation in which we could regularly see 50 odd stacks of bleed, burn, poison and torment would be a good idea.

People are still getting caught out by skullcrack builds?

Aidan Savage.2078:

Dont call it a buff then. Call it a change of management or something.

Call it a smoking chicken if you like, a buff is still a buff.

Unfortunately, you’re still glossing over the glaring issue that is present even in dungeon parties. Something needs to be done so that if you’re a power warrior, your pitiful 0 condi damage bleed stacks do not override the bleed stacks applied by, for example, a necro with over 3k condi damage. Every stack of bleed you apply has a high chance of removing one of the necro’s stacks and reducing their damage. That is the inherent flaw with the arbitrary limits on conditions.

I’m not glossing over the issue at all. An issue such as that could be resolved by altering application hierarchy without needing to remove the cap.

And for obvious reasons? Unfortunately, outside of pvp, I so no obvious reason for condi caps. Processing power? Bullkitten. If the game can process the damage done, skill recharges, and healing done by 140 players stacked on Teq during a burn phase, the game can process higher stack limits in at the least dungeons. Because condi builds dont need a buff? Bullkitten. The moment another condi build shows up, or ANYONE that can constantly apply condis, the effectiveness of both condi builds is effectively halved, or worse.

Yes obvious reasons.

1. Processing power.
2. There is no split between pve and wvw, removing the cap would be loltastic.
3. The OP power issues I cited before. Condi can already do massive damage from a position of more survive than melee zerk. Now if you give a group of higher survive condi users significantly more dps via the removal of the condi cap, then content becomes even more of a joke than it is now.

There is clearly an issue with redundancy when using multiple condi users in pve, but it is also clear why the condi cap is in place. If you are going to attempt to overcome the redundancy issue, you have to do it in such a way which is not a base condi cap removal.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

You do know that people solo Lupi in melee range in full zerker gear, right? Once you get good enough, enemies don’t drop you in melee range anymore.

And? You can also solo bosses as a condi spec. The fact that if you are good you can dodge, does not alter the fact that condi specs have distinct advantages in certain aspects (survive), advantages that would become OP should the condi cap be removed and groups able to apply insane damage whilst spaming condis with impunity.

There is a clear difference between sitting in melee range on a full glass cannon spec and using a condi build which is able to a) output very large damage, b) apply that damage from a point of greater safety than a melee zerk and c) use gear that allows for greater “tank” than the zerk.

Condi in no way needs a buff (if anything if you factor in pvp, it could be argued it needs nerfing) and the cap is in place for obvious reasons.

Brutal Arts.6307:

Where did I put my bingo card…

maha.7902:

there’s like a 300 difference in effective power in favour of axe so it’s basically whichever you can maintain rotations for, or simply prefer.

True, the differences are probably very slight so it is a case of what you prefer.

But according to that video/thread (which is the latest by Nike in terms of zerk meta?) the current thinking is that camping GS actually gives higher dps output than axe using 6/6/0/0/2 (or 6/6/0/2/0).

Has it changed again since then?

Carpboy.7145:

For PVE full zerk/scholar runes with a party that can keep up 25 might 6/6/0/0/2 axe/Ma camping axe auto is best.

I thought the current thinking was that camping GS instead of axe when using 6/6/0/0/2 was better:

You could either tie the mechanics to party creation. Don’t want to have your dps output or gear/build seen? Then don’t join a group with those mechanics turned on.

Or you can give every player an opt out. Go into settings and turn /allow inspect to off. There you go, no one will ever be able to see your gear or build. But you will be unable to join any group which asks for /inspect and/or dps meters.

The systems could, quite simply, be implemented in such a way as to allow those players who want them, to have access to them. Whilst at the same time allowing those not interested in them the ability to avoid them.

The whole current “but but elitists!!” theme (anti zerkers, anti TP flippers, anti speedrunners, anti meta builds, anti anyone who wants to group with other efficient players) is not only a really, really poor argument. It is also (ironically) exactly the kind of antisocial, toxic crud that those spouting seem to be raising their pitchforks over.

Star Ace.5207:

However, the alluded Calyx post was really deplorable. Easily worthy of being infracted, though I didn’t report it myself.

Speedrunners are playing how they want. “Playhowyouwants” is a silly moniker and pejorative that that should have never existed.

I do however believe that playing efficiently by itself is fine. It’s a valid playstyle. Regardless, DPS meters is a no no, because the game really doesn’t need it (no precise “DPS check” to meet to clear most if not all content) and as evident in this thread (for instance, hate posts like Calyx’s) it will 100% for sure be used as a culling tool, rather than as a “self-improvement” mechanism. You can very well play efficiently now as a team without a DPS meter (as has been proven by the most efficient groups), and can just precisely state your group’s requirements on the LFG tool.

The problem with culling is that it becomes “the norm” over time for instanced content, even by players who may not be worthy of culling others because of gear preference. Every character can have a particular gearscore, but no one can score individual player skill-and believe me (though I believe you may agree given a post in this thread) not all players who do not use Berserker’s are actually “bad players”, and obviously enough, “zerk” gear (thus, gearscore) alone won’t make someone a GW2 Superstar.

Whilst I am not going to comment on another poster and whether they should be infracted or not (it is not my place to do as such and was not what my post was about), I don’t really disagree with anything you have said there.

I am also (as I have pointed out earlier) currently unconvinced as to how much actual merit a dps meter would have. But feel the debate should be about the mechanics of it, rather some social argument which is nothing other than "ooh let’s bash “teh elitists”". It would certainly make the debate more worthwhile (well as worthwhile as it can be given it is fairly safe to say we will not see party dps meters in this game).

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

The “anticipated speed of the run” is an expectation that only you have.

It is an expectation many, if not most, have when posting or joining a “experienced zerk only” group.

People will join zerk groups while not in zerk for a myriad of reasons that don’t involve hoping other players carry them:

As it turns out, most of the reasons are awful/inexcusable.

#1: They hate elitism and defy these extraneous expectations out of principle.

You mean they are being jerks, great reason that.

#2: They expect everyone else to just join up in whatever they are wearing anyway, and don’t think the tags have any real meaning.

That is a really, really odd expectation to have from their point then now isnt it. It is neither “legitimate” nor is it excusable. If someone asks for “1 more guard” I don’t join using a necro. If someone asks for a group to do dungeon P3, I don’t go in expecting to do P1. If someone makes an Asura only RP party, I don’t join as a Charr. If someone asks for “tanks only!” I don’t join as a glass cannon.

#3: They factually cannot operate in zerker gear, and thus their higher bulk actually gives them higher sustained DPS than zerker gear would.

If you cannot use zerk gear, you don’t go and join “zerk only” groups. It’s not a difficult concept now is it and is an awful excuse.

#4: They just want experience in the run, but since no one will ever form a “teaching n00bs” group they feel like they have to lie just to get their foot in the door. It is hard to learn the content when you die every other attack, so even if they have zerk gear, they want to run with more durability before going out on a limb.

They can experience the run in the multitude of non “experiencedm zerk only!” groups. Again it is a truly awful excuse.

And yes, there are teaching groups and dungeon mentors.

#5: They don’t know what “zerk” is. Funny thing, berserker doesn’t contain the word “zerk” anywhere, so unless they are in the know they won’t know.

The first and only legitimate reason given. Now if they don’t know, they can a) ask, b) join and then get kicked and subsequently know not to do it again (i.e. it is a one off). Strangely though, personally I wouldn’t consider joining a group which lists specific requirements unless I knew what said requirements were in the first place…

You’ve got to realize that the majority of players in the game don’t follow the “zerk or else” meta. They have different ideals, and truly think they are contributing in their own way.

Yeah, that’s not an excuse for joining a group with requirements which you don’t meet. “Oooh this party says zerk only, I’ll join in my PVT anyway I mean I’ll still help a bit!”.

It is quite rare to get players who truly think that, because someone is in berserker gear, that they’ll be carrying them.

And yet people in this very thread are pinging zerk gear and then not wearing it, just to get into zerk groups. Unless they are doing it out of protest/for the lulz (i.e. being jerks) then they are doing it with the idea to be in a faster run (i.e. CARRIED). Otherwise they could take their non zerk, non meta build and join one of the countless non zerk req groups and do the content.

That’s just projection more than anything else.

Not really, no.

IKaikiasI.1932:

silvermember.8941:

If you hate TP players, you are probably just are just mad you cant do what they do.

This is the most silly, not saying anything argument a TP player can use.

True, and yet it has an element of truth to it no doubt.

saye.9304:

@Fenrir.3609

did you read post made by calyx.9086 and you defended him he said most of gw2 players are kitten poor meaning even against what you said learn to read before you open your mouth your first reply to me remember. btw read his post( calyx.9086) on first page,
you did it because you are just like him but now you are backing off because people are fighting back. and you say i did not mean this you misunderstood me i meant that.
again pathetic.

What?

I read his post, could you perhaps quote the part of my post which states that I agree that everyone is “kitten poor”?

Out of interest what am I “backing off” from exactly?

People who are so self entitled that they think they should be able to walk into any group, people who ping one set of gear and then use another in order to get into a specfic group. Yes, these people are far worse for the community than the “elitists” everyone seems to like bashing in threads like this. I stand by that sentiment.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

This “carry” thing is a bit misleading. You can completely nearly all content in the game in clerics or soldiers. Played well enough, inferior stat combinations are more than self sufficient. I mean, if they are wearing greens or something, then that you might call that carrying because they are undergeared and need to be supported.

They are getting “carried” in terms of the anticipated speed of the run. You can faceroll through pretty much all the content (and solo a great deal of it) in tanky gear/builds but it will take a while longer than a dps team.

Now those trying to get into zerk runs in tanky gear are doing so because they want to get through the content quickly, being carried on the back of other players dps, whilst they use suboptimal gear/builds . i.e. they are being carried.

Aidan Savage.2078:

If they want those things for reasons entirely separate from being able to beat hard content (for them), but to ensure they only get the players they want in their party, then there are already plenty of tools available. Join a guild that’s built just for that purpose, build a section of your friendlist just for likeminded people. I dont know, maybe have some trust?

The same could be said for people who don’t want to use a DPS meter. Join a guild which doesn’t use one or build a friendlist of like minded people.

Or you know, we could just have the tool there and implement it in a way that shows up in LFG at group creation. If you want to use it, join a group with it flagged active, if not join one with flagged off.

Most do run in premades, why should they not have access to a potentially useful tool?

To be perfectly honest the most convincing argument as to why a dps meter is not needed/bad has nothing at all to do with “muh community” and everything to do with whether it is really any use. Blood Red Arachnid.2493’s post has been far more convincing from an anti-DPS meter point of view than any of the hyperbole spouted about “elitists” et al.

Personally although I would like to see them, I to am not convinced entirely of their use in the game.

As for trust, that is a good one, given in this very thread we have someone talking about pinging zerk gear then using something else…

saye.9304:

i always make my group and ask for experienced players if we get not experienced player usually rest of group kick him before me. but i never disrespect them i usually tell them why they are being kicked so if they are new players they will learn how to play or what to do.
again you are another prove that this game must stay away from elitism, telling those guys they stink up the place and some other things rather than helping them and just simply kick them.
there are ton of games out there offering elitism with tools like dps mete. you are welcome to go there. just do not come here and whine about similar stuff in a game that particularly advertised as non traditional mmo. what you are doing is pathetic.

People who expect to be able to walk into any group regardless and who do ping zerk gear than use something else, i.e. lie through their front teeth ARE bad for the community and do “stink up the place”. I stand by that.

They don’t need “help”, they are intentionally lying to get carried or moaning because they feel every other player owes them, that they must let them in their group regardless.

Now people who are new or simply use non zerk gear, non meta builds, don’t have an interest in that kind of thing. All power to them I’m all for that. I do “help” them as and when I can and enjoy grouping with them from time to time. But frankly they don’t need “help” (new players aside) as they are having fun doing the game the non meta/efficient route. But these people are not the people I mentioned in terms of “stinking up the place” now are they. Which makes the tone of your post all the more odd.

You will also note I’m not “whining” about the lack of dps meter. I don’t think we will ever get one and I don’t really care. But some of the arguments against having one are simply tantamount to crying “elitists” over and over again.

I’ll ignore the last part of your post as you seem to have completely and misread mine.

mrauls.6519:

False. You stated, and I quote, “A dps meter/inspect is not used to overcome “hard” content”. That is not outlining a use, that is defining a use. Now, I’m one all for hearty discussion, but I won’t deal with people that speak in falsities or bend their previous words. The only thing odd/irrelevant here is your personality. DPS meters will only ostracize people. It’s not needed

It is defining one use and also pointing out that your question “what is so hard it needs one?” is largely irrelevant (i’m sorry that seems to upset you it wasn’t meant to offend). And yes, I stand by my statement that it not used to overcome hard content.

People are not requesting inspect or a dps meter because as it stands without them they cannot complete a dungeon or a fractal. They are asking for them for reasons outside of the remit of “the content is too hard without it”.

mrauls.6519:

That’s not true. Dps meters and inspect options don’t come with inherent uses. They’re tools. The owner chooses what to do with them and for what purpose.

It is a tool that people use, I outlined a use for it. A use which has nothing at all to do with the content being “hard” or not.

Again, your question “what content is so hard it needs inspect?” is odd/irrelevant.

mrauls.6519:

Dalanor.5387:

mrauls.6519:

What content is so hard you need to inspect people o_O

The issue is here the inability to read (lfg) and being honest (link gear A while wear gear.

That doesn’t answer my question

A dps meter/inspect is not used to overcome “hard” content, it is used to tweak/maximise your/your groups performance and/or to make the run as efficient and fast as possible. So your question is a bit odd.

Xae Isareth.1364:

But to be honest, Anet is pushing that elitism.

If you start putting DPS-checks on open world content, what else are you doing?

Building well does not equal elitism.

It is fair to say that given the ability to respec on the fly and given the newer content requires somewhat more organization and gearing. Anet perhaps wants players to at least try and adapt/tailor/build well for specific content.

That is not a bad thing, nor elitist.

Nike.2631:

You want to inspect me, I want to get on with doing the content rather than standing around posturing. And I carry a set of ‘zerker around with me I DON’T ACTUALLY WEAR that I can ping for you any time you’d like.

I hope I am reading that wrong because if you are pinging zerk gear to get into zerk groups and then not wearing it, then that is utterly pathetic.

Aidan Savage.2078:

This is a good point as well. As a PVT guardian pushing near 30k health, I deal the same damage as a guardian wearing zerker, with the sole exception that my critical rate is about 10%. In exchange for my low critical rate, I have waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more health and armor than a zerker guardian. And by running S/S & staff, I may not be dealing top damage, yet I contribute more to the fight because I’m CCing enemies, buffing allies, and providing supportive actions.

To top it off, I’m not dying to the same things a zerker guardian would die to.

And for those saying “stop joining zerker only parties,” get off the dead horse already. I dont see where anyone is saying they dont want either of these functions because they’re joining zerker/speedrun parties.

From an instanced pve persepctive a PVT staff guard is simply not optimal. Zerk guards are bringing all the protection/cc needed whilst at the same time doing far more damage. Moreoever those zerk guards are not dying either (unless they are bad/in a bad group) making all the excess defense the PVT guard has a total and utter waste. You are not contributing more to the fight at all. You are infact suboptimal.

But, that doesn’t make you a bad player per say and it doesn’t mean everyone should be forced to build for the “meta”. But I see no issue with those people like myself who do want to do that (meta build), having access to tools which might help tweak group comp from a real time in game perspective.

Elric Of Melnibone.4781:

The point the OP is trying to make, and I agree with, is that the TP is really at the center of the ‘end game’ for GW2. Once you have developed a character for each profession (leveled, geared, learned), what more is there to do but give them all nice shinies?

Solo dungeons.
Set dungeon records.
Get a high fractal rank.
Complete the fractal weapon set.
Rank in the top 100 in spvp.
Max out spvp ranks.
Gain wvw rank 500.
Get Ultimate Dominator.
Join a top level wvw guild or spvp team.
Have fun.
Help the community.

There are loads of things to do/aim at. Getting to level 80 is not “learning” a class, most have a great deal to learn frankly. Whilst doing as such you build up gold and amazingly enough, get the skins you want.

phys.7689:

actually in some release dungeon designers said they dont decide/know what drops and that the items/rewards guys decide that. So where do the items/rewards guys look for feedback.

They will talk to the content design teams who pass on feedback from the players and look at the overall metrics they have.

Well that is how it should work, if it isn’t working like that (and let’s face it the dungeon subsection is a wasteland when it comes to red name responses), well that’s pretty sad but has no relation to the point I made about why threads like this are getting moved.

The threads that are moved here are moved here because they are TP centric. If you have specific ideas about how to improve dungeons and dungeon loot (for example) and refrain from spending your time banging on about the TP, then there is a high chance that your thread will not be moved to this section of the forums.

Even if you post such a thread here, or get it moved here (unlikely). It would be more constructive then trying to tack general reward structure debate into threads which are essentially just massive qq fests like the ones we have seen lately about tax et al.

phys.7689:

Fenrir.3609:

phys.7689:

like i told you in the other thread the moderators move those threads here, this thread specifically was moved here from general discussion. Probably because the TP team is connected to, or maybe one and the same thing as the items/rewards teams. Which makes sense, because the items/rewards are generally designed with the TP in mind.

It and others like it are moved here because they are called things like “getting rich off the TP” or “nerf the TP” and spend their time badmouthing the TP and the players that use it.

then shouldnt the mods rename it and put it in the appropriate place?

The part about “spend their time badmouthing the TP…” points to a rather large section of the OP and the following thread being about the TP.

Threads like this are moved here because they are primarily about qqing about the TP. They are not offering ways of improving dungeon, wvw, whatever reward structure. They are not offering ways of making gameplay more meaningful. They are simply moaning about the TP.

Strangely enough such threads get moved to the TP section of the forums (although it would be an improvement if they got moved straight to trash tbh).

If someone creates a specific thread about say dungeon rewards and posits ways of improving the rewards, content and adding new stuff. Then it is unlikely to be moved here.

There are currently fractal rewards thread on the dungeon forums. People in those threads are, you know, talking about fractals and rewards in them. Instead of qqing about the TP. Oddly enough, said threads have not been moved here as of yet.

If threads which provide reasoned and reasonable debate about how to improve things like dungeons rewards get moved here without being TP centric. Then I will be amongst the first to complain about it as it would be wrong to do as such.

phys.7689:

like i told you in the other thread the moderators move those threads here, this thread specifically was moved here from general discussion. Probably because the TP team is connected to, or maybe one and the same thing as the items/rewards teams. Which makes sense, because the items/rewards are generally designed with the TP in mind.

It and others like it are moved here because they are called things like “getting rich off the TP” or “nerf the TP” and spend their time badmouthing the TP and the players that use it.

JCROY.5730:

that..or..you could run something that will gets you gold and just buy the T6 mats?
I THINK that could be faster..am I right?

If you can make more gold than you can farm T6 mats (which you can if you know what you are doing), then ofc gold farming is faster than target farming. If you are able to speedclear dungeons or play the TP, then gold farming and then buying is the faster option.

But in terms of open world pve, T6 target centric farming was the best gold gain farm (I am aware of). Now, well i’m not sure but I would imagine it still is.

phys.7689:

If winning the game is any activity that is playing the game, then sure you dont need the tp to win.

Which is the reality of the situation.

If winning the game is actually getting rewards/progress towards the end game.

You are confusing long term reward goals and winning, they are not the same. I wanted the Dusk in Kachiro painting item in SWG. Getting it was not me “winning”, that came from pvp, it was simply a vanity item to save up for long term, like legendaries.

and all of these endgame rewards are most easily obtained via gold

then getting as much gold as possible is winning the game.

No. Having endgame items available via gold simply creates a universal option. Getting said items faster than some other dude does not mean you have beaten him or won. Again you are confusing long term goals and “winning”.

yeah i play basketball, i sometimes lose, i still enjoy the struggle, but enjoying basketball is not winning the game.

And? You are proving my point with that analogy, not disproving it.

GvG doesnt really exist, but if you mean WvW, It works because it has other goals that people who actually like WvW can seek to do. Like killing the enemy. It also has seperate reward tracks that reward you for playing WvW (world ranks).

1. It does exist.
2. Pve has goals as well. i.e. dungeon soloing, boss soloing, speed running, record attempts and a vast myriad of other things people do/try to do (unarmored runs etc).

The Tp issue mostly comes from players who realize that the best way to get cool items is to play the tp, and dont particularly enjoy playing the TP for whatever reason. If there were other ways to get what they want, where they could play the game, they would probably be happier about it.

1. You are confusing “best” and “potentially fastest”.
2. There are other ways, make gold doing what you enjoy and buy them.

They dont have to make loot farming competitive if they make it targeted, the market is already competitive.

Competitve as in only one person gets the loot. You know, so you don’t break the games economy and all.

The problem is filling demand is not well focused. Sure you can solo some skelks for powerful blood, but you ll probably get just as much per hour, and other mats/loot/gold/skillpoints from doing a champ train.

Wrong.

Mostly what they need to do is create a reason to actually run around doing hero/adventurer stuff. Im not saying you get nothing for adventuring at all, just that adventuring isnt really a very good way of getting anything of value.

Define “adventuring” I can make a shed load from pve. Less than I can on the TP for sure, but more than enough to get luxury items should I want them.

And the guy soloing dungeons isnt getting very much for it all unless he is selling spots, and a lot of the players doing it are exploiting anyhow.

So he’s not getting much aside from 1. an elite level goal, 2. enjoyment and 3. potentially massive amounts of gold if he wants to sell.

Exploiters should not be entering into this conversation as they have nothing whatsoever to do with it.

Again, I’m all for adding in rewards for elite level content. Again people will qq about that.

laokoko.7403:

well for what ever reason, you do agree people dont’ complain in other games but only in gw2 right.

heck, I even see more people complaining about grinding in GW2 compare to korean grinder forums.

Oh people complain in/about other games all the time, but in my opinion this games playerbase certainly wins hands down when it comes to complaints which are driven by self entitlement and hating on capable/able players.

phys.7689:

Like i said you keep talking about entitlement, its not about wanting something for nothing, its about wanting something for actually doing something.

You do get something for doing something (more often than not, a large amount of reward if you have any idea what you are doing). You want more, fine, that more comes with elite level content then. Which people will qq about, again due to the excessive self entitlement we see in this games consumerbase.

You also have a very odd notion with regards to what constitutes “winning”. Having more gold does not see you beating the likes of rT or DnT at pve, it does not see you beating the top GvG teams or the top spvp teams. It sees you able to buy some vanity items a bit faster, wow, gamebreaking.

If I was really motivated to improve the rewards for specific content, I would go on the dungeon, spvp and general forums and outline in detail, with specifics, my ideas as to what content should reward what. I wouldn’t spend my time moaning about the TP. But then, that’s just me I guess.

laokoko.7403:

It’s like the people telling me how terrible other games economy is. And how he flips much easier there. And apparently I went to that game and asked no one is complaining about flipping.

I think there’s some truth. In other games you can’t just buy the “best gear in the game”. So people probably complain less about flipping, eventhough flipping occurs there too.

But again, I also played a bunch of game where you can buy the best reward, still no one complains about flipping there. Maybe the buy order system just helps flippers too much here since there is a bunch of lazy people who just try to sell item as fast as possible, or they just dont’ care.

Perhaps that is because the people here are far more self entitled. That certainly seems to be the case.

I’ve played mmos since pre Tram UO and i’ve never seen anything like it.

Tom Gore.4035:

I tried the SSC farming before megaservers and the drop rate was absolutely abysmal. I could get 2-3 champ bags running the train for every T6 that dropped. I might have been unlucky, of course.

I was getting around 8G+ worth of T6 per hour jumping between SSC and FGS farming T6 (with other loot taking the return well over 10-12G+). It was certainly more than I was getting from the FGS train anyway, but the train also granted insane amounts of skill points. And as you say, maybe I was just lucky.

Still, it doesn’t seem as good now as the entire coast is full of people farming (including people/bots teleporting from point to point).

phys.7689:

you didnt get the memo?
take a look at that icon in the upper right hand corner, methinks its a crown
http://www.mmozone.de/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/ChinaGemStore-550x399.jpg

You are wrong, I explained why before but apparently that isn’t allowed.

Silalus.8760:

Fair point on the HFT – that’s the algorithmic and computer controlled stuff. I utterly misused the term. I was thinking of the regulated status anyone can end up hitting, pattern day trader. I hadn’t had my coffee yet…

I do think there is some market making going on though. It’s not formalized, but even in real markets without official market makers there are liquidity providers that serve the same function. Maybe I’m being charitable though.

Anyway, not a real suggestion. I just get fascinated by how virtual markets evolve, and particularly in how rules and systems change them- or don’t.

I’m also only assuming that some of the really huge bid and offer numbers in GW2 represent traders that take both sides simultaneously. For all I know that might not be what’s happening at all.

Yeah I understand what you are saying, sorry for being a bit pedantic before.

Silalus.8760:

It might be interesting to note here that the GW2 market has evolved a lot like the real securities markets of the world, especially the US. Market makers (also called specialists and a few other terms) exist that do nothing other than to buy and sell in a narrow gap, making a relatively small amount per transaction but with a huge number of transactions. These are heavily regulated, and then increasingly less regulated are the high frequency (“day”) traders followed by pure speculators.

If you ask someone in the finance industry what purpose these all serve they’ll usually answer “to create liquidity and mitigate risk.” And it’s arguably true in a lot of cases.

GW2 has evolved just like that. If you’re willing to sacrifice speed and safety a little you can increase your profits by avoiding some of those middle men, at least to an extent, and in the most active markets you take on the least risk. The only big differences are that there is no real regulation of either high frequency trading or market making in GW2 and there is a much higher transactional cost. This probably serves to give the middle men a bit more control in GW2, while also making it an even better idea to avoid them when the risk and lower liquidity is acceptable.

It would be interesting if the developers introduced some form of regulation of the high frequency and high volume traders. For example if they licensed them (by imposing limits to the non licensed), flagged their bids and offers as a different color, and put a limit on the maximum spread between their buy and sell offers in cases where they have both running.

I’m not suggesting it… but given the parallels to the real markets it’s an interesting thought.

There is no HFT syle activity going on in this game and there is also no real market making in the sense of “specialists”. So adding in regularization seems a bit pointless.

The pure flippers in the game are pretty much just plain old intraday spread scalpers using limit orders.

Tom Gore.4035:

T6 farming by killing mobs is ridiculously slow. Go kill champs, it’s much faster.

You could pull a very good number of T6 (and make a lot of gold) via farming in SSC and FGS (more than you could champ farming).

The trouble is now, with the megaservers, there are just too many people farming the same mobs without grouping, which kills your overall rate.

Celtic Lady.3729:

What items can you possibly buy for 3-4 s and instantly sell for 50-60 s? Is this a troll thread?

Simply put, yes, it is.

phys.7689:

im going to stop you right here, there is nothing inherent to TP merchanting versus say for example boss fighting that means one should give you more than the other.

Currently, there quite obviously is as I have pointed out a tiring amount of times now and there has been no evidence given to suggest that needs to change outside of “muh feelings!”.

why not make it possible to get rewarded in ways that dont unbalance the macro economy

etc.

I’ve already said I would give rewards to highly skilled participants in pve/pve and I would certainly love to see high risk, high skill requirement gameplay added.

Still, you would be unable to “balance” gold gain in and of itself because of the fundamental difference in the core mechanics of the two systems (which I can’t believe people don’t grasp in all honesty). But then, that wouldn’t bother you right as you are not after gold gain, as long as you could get the elite items as a reward for doing the elite content.

Borghal.1635:

And dismissed as a minor problem.

Except it hasn’t.

When someone points out exactly why different systems can and do have different potential gains is specific areas. Countering that with"but they should all give the same gold, the game is not competitive!" is not a very good argument to make. At all.