Guild Wars 2

Alarox.4590:

Arken.3725:

Every Guardian runs 30 Valor, It’s our best tree by far. I would trade both Zeal and Radiance before I traded Valor. This is how good the line is.

I know it is, and that’s my point. If you’re satisfied with 30 Valor with a tank/support build being what the Guardian is, then these kinds of threads aren’t for you. An AH build is already very effective; adding suggestions relative to snaring/gap closer on that would simply be overpowered, and only reinforce one build: 30 Valor.

Tank and full damage builds have the same need. Land Damage. Resist on damage for a long time, without be capable to land a hit, its a slow death, or just a draw when the enemy go away.

But i agree that a full Dps build need stronger effects than a tanky one.

Scepter is no more then a fast melee weapon. In range is terrible.

Musty.3148:

Ganzo.5079:

Musty.3148:

EDIT: Ok, I see Ganzo is wanting weapon changes. my bad.

Wait lol, im not asking to have equals weapons, when im talking about flexility, im referring about the mobility\snaring issue.

I understand, but they are still weapon changes.

I wasn’t discounting your argument as much as I was correcting my own assumptions about the thread. Hence the “my bad”

Carry on!

Yeah are surely weapon change, but are not about a weapon homogenizations.
i only think that have a trait that fix a class problem is not the right path to follow, because you are forced to take that trait(less build choice), just like its happening now with AH or monk focus, that are mandatory.

Musty.3148:

EDIT: Ok, I see Ganzo is wanting weapon changes. my bad.

Wait lol, im not asking to have equals weapons, when im talking about flexility, im referring about the mobility\snaring issue.

We are starting derailing slightly, and you are taking my words for absolute concepts. Ill try to recap my assumpions, so maybe we can fix the discussion.

For the roles thing, that is not trinity, you cant have a specilized char, i never see a support only player on dungeon or a control only player. On a trinity game, you have specialized only char, that’s the difference.

Now, to return on discussion, im not proposig to homogenize weapons, because this mean that all weapons are equal. What im proposing is to have weapons that can cover a class lack (mobility\snaring for us) and then push the weapon toward a direction.
The actual weapons are not totally wrong, the case you posted for the mace is right, but use a mace on WvW is just a loss of time for example, when with a simple crippling time to time, or a stun when someone trigger protector strike, even the mace can become avaible for the ones that want to is this weapon instead of the usual GS\hammer\Sword trinity, that is not so efficient anyway.

You have to take into account the skills CD too. Most of the Warrior skill are below the 10 seconds without traits.

Because i like full discussions, not only say inaccurate things, and then change arguments. This is not discussing, is chatting.

You have to look a more larger circle, but its a right discussion.

Now look the main melee oriented classes that are, guardians, thiefs, warriors.

Warrior have: High HP, High Burst damaged, Good Toughness, Good mobility(high swifness uptime), Good CC ability, Jump mechanics with relatively shot CD shared across weapons. Mis survivability (high with LS food)

Thiefs: Low HP, High Burst Damage, Low Toughness, Impressive mobility, High CC ability, High Teleport mechanic with short “CD”. High survivability if used correctly, very low if used only to attack frontly. (high with LS food)

Guardian: Low HP, High sustained damage, High Toughness, Low Mobility, Low CC ability, Teleport mechanic on some weapon with mid CD. high survivability (very high with LS food)

this is only a simple scheme, made without taking in consideration the utility slots. but is a sum of how the classes work.

Heinel.6548:

Ganzo.5079:

Heinel.6548:

Ganzo.5079:

Heinel.6548:

People who don’t think the class has a problem isn’t going to post about it on the forums. Plenty of others have posted about builds complete with videos that can catch people and kill.

If we are talking about WvW, most of the video are against Upleveled chars. Just to show big numbers.

Anyway the concept of the game is not: “pick the right weapon for the right situation”. But is “play the way you want to play”, so every weapon set have to grant some kind of flexibility, and only then be oriented toward a specific role.

If you want to argue for homogenized weapons rather than specialized ones, you need to make the case for why this is good for the game. Saying “just because” isn’t going to cut it.

This is not a trinity based game, so a weapon cant be made for a specific role only.

You still believe there’s no trinity?

Why are you running around the discussion avoiding arguments?(and this is not the first time)
Is this game trinity based? Have you a guy that do nothing but heal? can you taunt a mob from the thief that steal your aggro? can you facetank a boss without moving? (ok we can do the last on some encounter)

This game have a false trinity, created by some opinable design choice. Like the defiant effect on bosses, or the specialized weapons.

Heinel.6548:

Ganzo.5079:

Heinel.6548:

People who don’t think the class has a problem isn’t going to post about it on the forums. Plenty of others have posted about builds complete with videos that can catch people and kill.

If we are talking about WvW, most of the video are against Upleveled chars. Just to show big numbers.

Anyway the concept of the game is not: “pick the right weapon for the right situation”. But is “play the way you want to play”, so every weapon set have to grant some kind of flexibility, and only then be oriented toward a specific role.

If you want to argue for homogenized weapons rather than specialized ones, you need to make the case for why this is good for the game. Saying “just because” isn’t going to cut it.

This is not a trinity based game, so a weapon cant be made for a specific role only.

Heinel.6548:

People who don’t think the class has a problem isn’t going to post about it on the forums. Plenty of others have posted about builds complete with videos that can catch people and kill.

If we are talking about WvW, most of the video are against Upleveled chars. Just to show big numbers.

Anyway the concept of the game is not: “pick the right weapon for the right situation”. But is “play the way you want to play”, so every weapon set have to grant some kind of flexibility, and only then be oriented toward a specific role.

People who don’t think the class has a problem isn’t going to post about it on the forums

This is not an excuse or a motivation. Just look the older sections of the forum. This is not the first time that a discussion like this, come out in 5 months, and i dont think it will be the last if something will not be addressed.
A lot of people just give up, changed class, stop to read the forum, or changed directly game, because until now, the class changes, dont reflect the class needs for players, without any kind of real motivation.
Now i dont want to re-open old and nasty discussion, i just want to say that WE are HERE to discuss and is not true that the peoples that dont post on the forum, have no problem at all.

ATTHWSM.7840:

TsukasaHiiragi.9730:

The problem is, you ~ From just reading the short amount of posts I can tell the type of person you are; seen them in every single MMo from the original EQ through to, ahem GW2 and honestly no offense here, you are the type of person which is bad for the game.

This game is, and always will be a casual friendly game. This was marketed as a casual game – everything about this game is casual, a ‘carebear’ game and I hate using that term because its idiotic and stinks of elitism. Once anet betrayed its original manifesto and headed down a completely different path, all hell broke loose – you honestly think, anet is going to risk another ‘storm’ like before?

CoE is a prime example of a nearly unpuggable instance – mostly from my point of view, sloppy design. Honestly, you could debate this games flaws until doomsday, but I’ve wasted enough time today on forum banter.

Dude. So leave it casual, and end stuff for the best players that want end game. NOBODY gets this… how do raids and content that end game players want affect a casuals gameplay? They dont. If you dont wanna run that zone, then dont.

Raided EQ2 for 6? years… the casuals did what they did, the hardcore did what they did. Guess what bro? After almost 9 years, its still making money with MONTHLY SUBS… omgosh.

You are just using the word hardcore, without know what an hardcore gamer is.

talking about simple numbers.
you have 2 variables: difficulty level, item power.

lets suppose to set theese variables at 10. So if you do a simple calculation like difficulty\item power, you obtain an average difficulty of 1.

ok set the difficulty at 20, and let the item power at 10. with the same calculation the average difficulty will become 2 (20\10)

With a gear threadmill, when you raise difficulty you raise the item power too, so if you set difficulty on 20, you set the item power on 20, and the average difficulty will remain at 1!

So only with some elementary math, i just show you that your argument is invalid if you think to be an hardcore gamer, because the HARDCORE gamer want an higher average difficulty!

marnick.4305:

Kasparov made chess into his job. He’s the best player in the world, he spend hundreds of hours on that game. And yet he still plays with a single queen. Rather, if I played against him, he would give up his queen instead of asking for 4 queens like you do.

I play this game as a hobby. A past time. I’m prepared to spend hundreds of euros on it during it’s lifetime. I won’t if elitists like you make it worse by introducing gear threadmills, elitism and the like.

You man, are a real sir.
Agree on all.
/bow

IM not agree with a simple dual trait build. But i agree with if we can have a Pve build panel and a WvW build panel.
Because is just annoying Change build(and pay for the change) every time a decide to play on WvW.

gamefreak.5673:

You have a leap, teleport to foes, near 100% upkeep of swiftness with little work. Also you forgot necros on your list for signets with runspeed.

edit: Fun little thing you can/could do is use your leap off great sword + the teleport to target to cover a nice chunk of ground quickly, it was alittle tricky to get the timing rught. The names escape me but it used to be a great way to surprise another player to see my guard cover close to a 1500 gap quickly.

100% swift upkeep? come on lol if its possible, how many things have you to discharge to achieve it? how many thing have to discharge other classes to achieve the same result?

Think about things, even if a thing is barely possible, doesn’t mean that is good.

anyway i just agree with Lavra. I just like to have a cripple xD

Narkosys.5173:

ATTHWSM.7840:

Goettel.4389:

As long as it doesn’t raise the level-cap, I’d definitely buy any expansion, since I’m still having a blast 500 hours in. To be honest, it feels like the game is just starting to gain momentum and we haven’t seen the best of it yet.

Exactly the kind of player thats going to kill this game lol.

No it was people like YOU who killed this game Nov 15th.

Something like this.

Anyway to reply to OP, i dont know. i want to look the game development first, its to early to decide now.

If it remain sticky to the actual sistuation, probably i wont buy it.

Heinel.6548:

Well, I actually find guardian hindering and mobility abilities are quite adequate already. We have enough to hold someone in a 1v1 down until one side gets downed and that’s really what’s important IMO.

i like this discussion, but i quote only this just to not make a wall of text.

Our ability to get stiky to the enemy are strange, if a guardian was a bursty class (but as defensive class, we cant rely on burst damage) our actual reaching ability are fine, you reach the enemy and you have the chance to take from him a lot of life.
But as class that rely most on sustained damage, we have to Hit a lot, and Vs ranged target after the first 20 seconds of fight when you start to exaust your long Cd skills, the chance to get stiky on the enemy become less and less.

For a class that Fight over time, see the damage efficiency go down on time(compared with other classes) is not a good thing, this is a prerogative of the bursty classes (usually).
That’s why we need something more “spammable”(awful term, i know), that dont rely only on the build choice, just because this is a lack of the entire class.
The trait revamp thing, is something different BUT needed, and i agree when you tie a strong condition like chill to a GM trait.

Nurse.1085:

I will always support Raiding in GW2.

More importantly, I want challenging PVE content and epic boss battles. Not just a higher player cap. World Events/Dragons are simply Zerg fests and Dungeon’s give little to no challenge. I want real bosses, not bosses with over-simplified singular mechanics and high HP pools. /facedesk

Raid’s can be easily balanced to not force players to do them, but rather to lure player’s into them. Rewards such as Server/World First Achievs (for those who care), Achievs with “special (cosmetic) item” rewards (something for players to aim for after completing the Raid), Cosmetic Armor sets, Cosmetic Weapons, Capes, Backpacks, Titles, Cosmetic Mounts (such as the Witch’s broom), Ascended Accessories (another way to obtain them besides grinding Fractals) and so forth. Not to mention Karma/Money at the end completion.

That way, I can do what I want to do and PVPer’s can do what they want to do, with out being forced into doing something that PVPers don’t want to do in order to stay competitive (-cough-FOTM).

-shrugs- But I doubt it’ll ever happen.

Finally this discussion is going in the right direction. At least for me ^^

and for FOTM, lets hope they address that problem too lol xD

I Find intresting your idea about the retaliation change, is kinda unique. and maybe can encourage guardians to use the condition damage\condition duration stats, and this can be a good thing.

But i dont agree with the trait idea. chill is really too powerfull as condition and a trait like writ of lamentation + glacial smite (are on the same traitline so they can be used together) + rune that increase chilled duration + Hammer, can create only problems for us. too much power for one single build.

Edit: the zealous spirit change is a great idea, if the chill effect apply an internal cd of at least 8\10 seconds.

lekyii.9856:

Wretchedscar.4796:

DLL, I think, and I’m not attempting to be insulting here, that you have a rather fixed view here. You have some interesting arguments, but you seem to be coming from the point of ‘I don’t want raids’ and then building your argument to support that.

I played Wow for many years. I raided for a lot of those. I had about 3 friends when I hit max Level in Burning Crusade. It took me about 2 days to find a raiding guild when I decided to see what is up with that raiding nonsense. Stepping into Gruuls Lair that first time was EPIC. I still remember the joy I had learning that first 5 Ogre Boss fight, learning new things about my class, even wiping and trying again, doing better, being part of this 25 man team was amazing. I was NOT a good player then (Combat dagger dagger rogue with no weapon spec blah blah) which in this much more forgiving game would equate to trying to use a water weapon on land. I made friends I never would have made, I enjoyed an entirely new aspect of the game I never before knew existed, and lastly, that experience, those raiding experiences are what kept me there for years and years.

Now I’ve Left wow, with good memories, but it’s become a thing I dont like anymore. (I miss you still protodrakes!) The Moment i got the Beta Weekend invite I was Hooked. I love the Lore, The game, the Visuals, I even liked it enough to go buy GW1 and play that when I take time from this game. It’s a Rich and well thought out world. The First time i saw the Shatterer I almost peed with glee and awe. I PLay WvW, I do dungeons, tho fractals frankly make me wanna slam my dick in a door instead; But even that’s gotten better since I joined a Guild of awesome people. Which took me about 5 minutes of talking to one of thier members after having seen them around for a bit. No one in the guild asked me if I’d done a place before when I wanted to join, they were helpfull and explained things as we went if it was a path Ididnt know. The GW Community as a whole is refreshingly nice and nontoxic.

But I miss Raiding. I do not feel that Raiding will ruin the environment of this game. Raiding does not have to be some gated horror story. It could drop it’s own tokens as Dungeons do. It could let the designers really show how their multi class synergy is supposed to work on a larger but also more controlled scale. It could drop Unique weapon skins. Heck! Even let it affect your world in a manner like WVW (minor crafting bonuses for all when we crush the Giant Risen Sea Turtle: Tortizahn! Who Drops an awesome looking Spear skin that only those who have defeated him may get a chance to obtain!)

I do not see how this would effect your idea of this game. It’s a large Dungeon that’s Difficult and would require team work and coordination. It’s not Wow-Herpes.

THIS!

Someone that understands.

If ppl can have fun doing 5man dungeons why cant we do the same in “Large Dungeons” with more coordenation.?

Some people come to this post and throw stones at us, players who defend raids as if they were obliged to do the raids, when they dont are.

If all the player that are asking raids, are like you or Wretchedscar, i see really no harm on adding raids. But the problem is when people that are asking raids, are also asking better loots on raids (better stats principally).

I come from WOW too, and i have to say that i dont miss raid at all (2 years as main tank are kinda frustrating lol), but i see no problem if my gaming experience is not changed by raids.

drkered.7948:

It seems that the only attempt at a slow that ANET wanted to give us was the super weird chill proc on the hammer (I forget the actual trait).

I like the idea of symbols causing a slow but I don’t think that crippling people is in the guardians flavor.

We already have “walls” with the staff, hammer, shield and some of our utility spells so it seems that if we could expand on that we could be golden.

My idea is that we have a trait (maybe replace the hammer one) that says the first time an enemy enters the edge of one of our symbols (each symbol procs separately) they receive a 1-2 second chill and if they try to leave they receive a 1 second immobilize.

It creates this idea of symbols having a sort of wall which gives enemies a chill when they enter or an immobilize when they leave.

The idea is a original, you can use the simbol as trap or illusionary prison. But the problem with trais proposition, is that if you have not enough traits of this type, you just push poeple to use a particular build.
Look for example Valor 30 (AH or monk focus) how many guardians dont invest on it? i suppose the 90% of us use that 30 points, and the reason is simple, without a costant flow of heal, the guardian is just a dead body on an heavy armor.
If will be created only one trait, to addres this issue, no matter on wich place they put it, that trait will become a must have, pratically cutting down our builds selection, that is just very limited.

however, your idea can be applied directly to simbols, with lighter effects of course.
for example, the enemy that exit from the simbol is crippled for some second (variable on base of the simbol cd)

Xavori.3768:

And yes, skill is a valid argument. You would know this if you’d played AC enough to realize that there are mob attacks in those dungeons that stats simply aren’t enough to deal with, but player skill can regardless of toughness. So no, you don’t get to reject that argument out of hand unless you can first demonstrate that skill doesn’t matter since I’m pretty sure I’ve explained exactly how and where it matters more than anything else.

SKill is an invalid argument just because your are not the most skilled player on earth! and MF users in general, are not the BEST PLAYERS in the game.
At parity of player skill, the lack of toughness or crit damage, make MF users a burden for the rest of the party just because they are lowering intentionally the power of their build, for more droprate.

If you go alone, you can do what you want with your char and your time, on group, things change.

If you are reffering to aegis, I agree.
I think too that they have to set aegis as the last defense used. i have a similar problem when i use Protector strike or shelter, and aegis refresh in the same time.

Ynna.8769:

I must say that Guardians certainly have options in order to increase their mobility and the ability to stay on a target. The trade-offs for doing so however are often way to high.

And I’m not sure if I completely agree with the notion that any “fix” needs to be available for every Guardian as baseline. I could see any solution that is a trait (Master or lower) in Radiance or Zeal, for example.

Then again, doing so risks making those traits nearly mandatory in sPvP, which results in even less (viable) build variance. I’m interested to see what solutions the community can think of (I might add something myself later after giving it some thought).

This is a really good analysis.
We see to many times on the forum, people that claim that guardians have NO mobility problems, and suggest to use skills to stay on the enemy, without thinking that we can use 2 weapons and 3 utility, and without consider the average long skills CD.

My solutions are always the same.

1)change how simbols work, to provide a punishing effect to the enemy but for doing this we need 2 things. the first is provide a simbol to the weapons that dont have one.
The second is create a light snare condition exclusive for simbols. (not a condition heavy as cripple for example)

2)another method is change all the 5% damage traits on weapons, to provide some control effect to the traited weapon. (and this can effectively help build variation, even if it can change too much the gameplay, because if you need to change weapons on the road, you lose effectivness)

3)the last is simply provide to any weapon some sort of snaring condition, directly on the weapon skills. (boostable then with proper traits, like leg specialist for warrior)

obviously, i dont consider these 3 solution synergistic, one exclude the other 2.

George Steel.1804:

Sticking on a target and escaping sticky situations are literally our biggest challenges in WvW. These were the biggest contributors to me adopting the “Healway Guardian” build for myself(might sound odd, ill explain..).

Running with GS and 2h mastery gives me an 11 second leap without need for enemy target, and sword another blink on a decently low cool down. Using them intelligently not only helps me stick to a target, but is SO helpful for escaping situations. Seriously, I feel like a thief out there.

The reliance on roll heals and sigil of energy means I’m switching weapons nearly every time I can, which then pretty much guarantees my gap closer is ready. If you’re getting crippled while on a target it can be tough to keep whacking away at them; here is where Guardians need to rely on some condition removal to keep themselves free and clear of any movement hindrances.

Situation getting sticky? GS leap away, roll If heals are needed, switch to sword, target those blessed rabbits or deer, blink again and pop some swiftness.

It’s really unbelievable how much less I die and how much longer I stick on targets with this build. I will attempt to make a video in the near future and share my success

You get a good point on here, i use a similar tecnique with JI, i love to use bunnies to go away from stikies situations.
But as you can see, is something related to your particular weapon choice. and when the fight is going, you cant change weapon just to compensate the lack of the above factors. ANd i think is horrendous to be forced to chose a predefinite weapon asset because the others are not effective.

Another thing related to this quote is that with your weapon choice, you are very mobile, probably is the most mobile combination for guardians. I played it on WvW too before start using the hammer, but the problem of kiting was still there.
You reach the enemy, and set one hit, the enemy flee, recover healt, you reach him again, another hit, the enemy flee again, you pull him with GS, another 2 or 3 hits, but the enemy flee again, and when you start to finish CD’s your enemy just go away.

You want to pick the only class that have no ranged build viable.

Scepter shield, is not a ranged combination, because even if scepter have a 1200 attack range, the autoattack is useful only at close distance.

If you just want an heavy class with some ranged\support options, roll a warrior with shout or banners. ^^

edit: changed scepter range, with the right value ^^

blenheim.6489:

Trait to change Burn procs to Cripple, since Burn is so horrible for Guardian anyway.

This can be an option, Keep on mind that this is a problem of the entire class, so to be effective as solution we need different kind of traits to cover every possible build.

Anyway, i suppose from you reply that you are for a snare only improvement too ^^

Copy\paste the link on your browser address bar.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/guardian/Suggestion-Writ-of-Impediment-And-More/page/2#post1293496
I open this thread, to continue a discussion Born on the thread above, but not tied to that single class proposition.
The Guardian is for sure one of the strongest class in the game, on Pve and on spvp is invaluable, but the lack of mobility, really risk to influence our playstile.

For pve, there is no problem i suppose, mobs dont flee and for ranged fight, the scepter is enough, so i dont discuss pve here.

On spvp our class is all about bunker, you dont need to follow your enemy, and to catch the point the enemy need to come after your, so until the other classes issue won’t be addressed, we are on a good spot, but only as bunkers.

WvW is the place where our issue come out strongly, a lot of player accuse the class to be OP, but in most part, i think that are players that charge us without any sort of strategy, and its like hit a wall.
The real good players on WvW know how neutralize a guardian, and its not so difficult, it take time for sure, but our class have very few tools to counter a ranged\kiting playstile.

So what’s for you is the best method to address this class lack?
Add more ranged option?
Increase class mobility?
Add more snare options?
A mix of 2 or all these 3 things?

For me the best thing is improve the control on Close combat, we already have some teleport, that are perfect to reach an enemy, but when the enemy is running, even if you reach it, you have very few things to keep him on the range of your weapons. I like the idea of a melee only class, because its totally different than the others, but the class need something more to remain loyal to this view.

Last thing. I really wish that some devs can share with us its opinions on this. Im not talking about Promises or work in progress, i just wish to know their opinion as player and developer.

I disagree with people saying magic find doesn’t contribute to the group. Magic find raises personal morale to kill that monster and get good loot, thus, bringing the inner hot blooded soul inside you to fight harder, stronger and to do the impossible!

So, if you are happy because you loot better, group gameplay will improve? lol.
Face reality please, these are good words, but have no realistic impact.
The realistic impact is that you boost your morale, you loot better, but you waste MY TIME for this, whitout any sort of Gain.

@sharing MF: You don’t convince skilled players to play to their maximum potential by promising them the lower rewards of shared magic find. You convince skilled players to play to their maximum potential by rewarding them for doing so. MF as it currently exists does this. I play closer to (but seriously, AC is easy enough that I’m still semi-half junvile felining it most of the time) my maximum potential in MF gear than I do on my tank warrior because I have to. ‘Course, outside of the Colossus and Kholer, my MF warrior happily melees everything in AC, and when I’m really feeling my oats, I’ll even melee Colossus just to see if I can stay in that narrow little wedge directly behind him the entire fight.

This is fantastic! So i have to take on party a “skilled player” that not only DONT DO ITS maximum, but also he drop better then the other group member, slowing them at the same time.

Caedmon.6798:

Please,leave the We out of it and start talking for yourself…pretty please.Because im sure just a handfull of people would want this and the majority Not…And no the OP did not make a troll post,he is serious….As all wow players are with suggestions like these..

Sorry man im an ex Wow player too lol.
I still think he is trolling, Mount and raids are 2 hot topic on these days, and put them together on the same topic, its like to mix 2 different explosives, Just to make a big explosion ^^

maddoctor.2738:

There is an excellent post on the general forums about raids:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/philosophy-on-raids/page/5#post1297828

It has a very healthy discussion with nice results (in the end at least lol)

Mad, Dont take OP seriously, just the title is a troll, and the rest of the post is not different.

the only thing that guardian need to be addressed is the lack of:
Mobility\range\snare
and the funny thing is that to be perfect, we need only ONE of this.

Mordimus.3452:

@gimmethegepgun I wouldn’t say they perform worse, I would say it just takes a-lot longer to accomplish the same goal with a MF party then it would with a zerker/knights geared party.

I have a feeling the issue presented to us with magic find is time. It’s the only difference that you can point out if you take a group of normal geared players, monitor one of their dungeon/fractal runs, and then have them equip a set of magic find gear,do the same run and compare the two.

Yes the group would be losing time,because their dps would take a hit, but the content is still possible to complete by 5 people with magic find gear, even the ascended versions with agony.

So the sacrifice that these players get for using magic find is time, in which again as I originally stated, could be remedied by avoiding it and running with a group of people that all have the same goals in mind.

On the other hand, like I said on my last post, I do believe that magic find’s functionality could be improved in some manner.

But as well, as you stated, the game presented the players with a gear set that improved their chances to earn gold, at a loss in dps. Alot of people might enjoy this part of the game, and i’m assuming they do considering the amount of outcries around this topic. BUT people are directing their wrath at the players that use it, instead of manning up a little bit, and taking control of their own game play, thus avoiding the stat by not putting themselves in that situation to where it makes them upset to begin with.

I make to you an example,
You are at school, With your lab group, 3 of the group are working on the experiment and preparing the presentation, other 2 Help only time to time, but for the rest of the time they do something else.
Now, have i to direct my anger against the professor that let them do what they want, or vs my team mate that are doing nothing?

Because you know, i think that the 2 people that are doing barely nothing, really enjoy to earn a good mark, but they deserve it?

Now are passed more than 10 years from my last lab lesson, but when someone defend an MF user on dungeon i feel exactly on the same way.

Only a guardian think that a little blue bubble is a safe place.

maddoctor.2738:

Martin The Brave.8731:

Agreed, there seems to be a negative stigma when talking about “Raid’s”, And this is why I have mostly referred to it as “Large grouped instanced content”. As a GW1 Vet myself I want to see these instance’s because it’s what brought me to play Guildwars 1 basically since launch. Although I would like to see an increased group size such as the 8 or 12 in GW1. I think 10 is a realistic goal for this game as it is double the party size and can be pretty well balanced.

The general anti-raid argument, from what I understand, is that raids usually have their own gear progression, and offer the best gear in the games they are in. This is true, but if large grouped instanced content was introduced in Guild Wars 2, it would make sense to have the exact same rewards (plus maybe different skins and some titles) as any other part of the game.

I believe most people wouldn’t have a problem with that.

I think this too.
If the rule “play your way” is respected, they can add what they can add all the challenges they want to the game.

Only a guardian can block attacks better with a candlestick than with a shield

Kaimick.5109:

I do not disagree with the fact that MF is selfish
I don’t even disagree with the fact that a run is slower when one or multiple people have MF on. Although the fact that the time between the two is not a great factor.

I have not run into any situation in the game where MF was the cause of a bad run, mainly because of the fact it is not the gear it was the player just being a bad player. So in turn I have no issues with the MF stat.

I also understand there are players that do have an issue with magic find, although that is not the case. With a congruent player base of 400k players and say only 100k players have an issue with it, that is not enough of the player base to remove the stat. Since that is only 1/4 the player base, when 3/4 have no issues with it. Arena Net has to appease to the majority. If MF was removed I honestly wouldn’t be affected or care, i am just a player that has no issues with the stat and I do not feel the need to blame the stat for poor players ability or lack there of.

where that numbers come from? sorry but you can justify this just with the usual “vocal majority VS vocal minority” thing, and using random numbers.

Is MF selfish a stat?
If yes, why a stats that lower the whole party efficiency for the sake of the droprate of one single player, have access to the party content, arent just the players playing for the same objective?

You need only these questions.

ZeroRaiNs.7154:

@Clarkskala

I agree totally with what you said.

I believe the real discussion here or debate is the magic find stat itself hindering players in parties. The Kaimick individual had me talking about inspect but I only supported the idea of seeing the name of the gear and the possibility of seeing what I look like with the item.

Inspection is not only elitist, but dont solve the problem.
You can just equip MF gear when you are already in the dungeon. so anyway, its a mechanic that have no right to exist on this game.

Just look on the general forum.

simple solution, share the MF bonus through the whole party members = you drop an useful stat, but all the members can drop better, if the party Wipe no one have the right to complain.

Imperatora.7654:

Ganzo.5079:

This example, mean nothing… how much time you lose just for this challenge? if the naked player was at fully potential maybe the others die less, and maybe all of you finish the dungeon in less time.

I agree when you say that player skill is important, but all of you are totally wrong when you think that the MF user is skilled then the others. At parity of player skill, an MF user is a burden for the party.

If you’re the “GO GO GO GO, WHY ARE WE NOT GOING?!” guy, I don’t want to team with you no matter what gear you have on.

read some post above, im not that kind of player, but leechers are not my favourite kind of player, and mechanic that justify leeching on a party game, are just nonsense.

buki.3108:

As fishergrip noted earlier, the GS leap will save you. It allows you to immediately place yourself in the fight. Rushing with a hammer doesn’t work most of the times… about half of your health is already gone by the time you start fighting. The same reason is why I always carry a ranged weapon – Guardians are tough, but you can’t stay in melee range forever. You need a way to retreat and recover while still assisting your team.

Usually a hammer user on WvW have JI, that is a must have. (at least for me)and this can cover the GS leap loss.
When you are on fight, Mighty blow is better then Leap of faith, on a range time of 15 seconds, with leap of faith you jump for 600, with mighty blow you jump for 900.

but this is really matter of taste here, Gs can do mayhem on groups for some seconds. The hammer have a god avarage damage, and can also control the enemies.

Kaimick.5109:

I see what you did there, you don’t have a solid answer to tell me. well I wont respond with a question cause I know the answer.

( also it is Why does a player )

Cause it is their choice to do so, unless the time is 10 or 20 minutes longer with the only cause being the Gear ( which it isn’t ) then their choice is not a detriment.

Now try, instead of avoiding, to answer my question.

ok lest go for the long answer.

1)time is a good indicator of how the party is playing. No wipe, no errors = less time for dungeon completion.

2)I have no problem if a player that is try to do his best make me “lose time”, and its not time loss, because he is learning, and its do his best.
But an MF user is not doing his best at all. Because the stats he is dropping for MF, are or for more damage, or for more survivability.

Kaimick.5109:

Ganzo.5079:

uknortherner.2670:

@zerorains: A couple of months ago I ran a dungeon with a random group, including one player who decided he wasn’t going to bother wearing any gear at all, “because he wanted a challenge”. The rest of us ran with it thinking he would go down at the first hurdle.

Not only did he never go down at all, but he also put the rest of us to shame by rezzing us when we entered the downed state. Why? Because he knew what he was doing.

Short version: MF arguments are irrelevant and skill is clearly all that matters. Stop looking for excuses because you suck at dungeon runs.

This example, mean nothing… how much time you lose just for this challenge? if the naked player was at fully potential maybe the others die less, and maybe all of you finish the dungeon in less time.

I agree when you say that player skill is important, but all of you are totally wrong when you think that the MF user is skilled then the others. At parity of player skill, an MF user is a burden for the party.

Why are you so fixated on how much time you spend? You should be more concerned how well the run goes ( IE: wipes, problems with cohesion, understanding )
I am sorry but if your so pressed for time you need that Perfect group of perfect players or you can’t finish you shouldn’t be running the dungeon anyhow.

I have personally ran a dungeon Same path twice once in all MF and once in All Exotics with no MF what so ever. Our run with the same people came out 2 minutes slower than the later. If your so stressed for 2 minutes then you need to not do the dungeon. That was with all party in MF that time is probably closer to a 1:30 if not lower for less members in MF.

Also why is it your concern what other people are doing? Do you have some mental clock that times your runs? Do you Time your runs? I know I don’t, the measure of success is not weather or not I just spent 2 minutes less in a dungeon or not.

And i reply you with this.
Why a player (or its better to say, the non MF users in the party) have to lose time just to make another one loot better?

And no i dont time my runs, its a matter of concept.

uknortherner.2670:

@zerorains: A couple of months ago I ran a dungeon with a random group, including one player who decided he wasn’t going to bother wearing any gear at all, “because he wanted a challenge”. The rest of us ran with it thinking he would go down at the first hurdle.

Not only did he never go down at all, but he also put the rest of us to shame by rezzing us when we entered the downed state. Why? Because he knew what he was doing.

Short version: MF arguments are irrelevant and skill is clearly all that matters. Stop looking for excuses because you suck at dungeon runs.

This example, mean nothing… how much time you lose just for this challenge? if the naked player was at fully potential maybe the others die less, and maybe all of you finish the dungeon in less time.

I agree when you say that player skill is important, but all of you are totally wrong when you think that the MF user is skilled then the others. At parity of player skill, an MF user is a burden for the party.

Navzar.2938:

People play a game for fun. If they can’t use their favorite build anymore, it’s not as fun. Or if said nerf makes them so weak they can never win anymore, but that’s not usually the case.

ahahah lol, since october i see all my builds nerfed on every single patch, and i have to confirm this, its not fun lol

On this game nerf scare people because they are heavy handed a lot of times, and when a class is nerfed, you have to wait the next patch and hope they will adress the problem, but usually when something is nerfed we dont see a counter balance or useless mechanic revamped.

Again… i really hate elitism, and the inspection is just one of the worst form of it, even if i agree that the MF stat is a leeching stats and can be annoying have on party people that dont use the fully build potential just for personal drop.

anyway this thread is about the inspection things, and i have to say that im totally against!

Kaimick.5109:

Do people just ignore the fact that Arena Net has stated that this January or febuary a Dueling option will be open to people in the Mist?

People read do a little research before blindly posting stuff and suggestion about stuff that is already going to be added with in the next MONTH.

I hope every time a thread comes up like this and people start posting as if they aren’t going to do it Dev’s and Mod’s stand back and laugh at the stupidity of people, and the lack of the ability to do a 5 minute search for the information

Really? kitten i really miss this one. TY

Oozo.7856:

Hammer 5 needs a cast time so it can be used in conjunction with JI. Making it instacast would ruin that synergy. If you are using Hammer, then JI should be on your utility bar to get the most out of it.

Where the strategy will be ruined?

now you use ROW and then JI.
If ROW become istancast, you can use JI and then ROW. OK, there is little possibility that the enemy can dodge away, but with an instacast, ROW can be more usefull through the whole combat, and not only when used with JI.

But its a matter of taste, i just will be happy if the enemy cant dodge out the ring.