Guild Wars 2

i really dont get why there is always people that want all game do the same.

There is plenty of games, with raids, gear progression, P2W options etc etc etc…
Have this poeple look any interwiev or blogspot before buying this game?

Its like buy a product sugar free, advertised as sugar free, then cry because its not so sweet and ask to the manufaturer to add some sugar, because the product will really benefit with it.

W.T.F.!

THere are few things to discuss. here:

1)even if they will raise the level cap, this dont really justify a new tier of items, or only partially. But i really dont get Why raise level cap and item stats? the kind of progression we (the poeple that follow this project from the beginning) wish, is all about skills and build diversity! Like the previous guild wars.

2)the main problem about the ascended tier is only because it introduce a different progression, if this set is the only one released on the whole Gw2 lifetime(to fix the easyness of the exotic gear), i dont see the problem, but without any statement we know that they will release New sets, not this year, but maybe with a future expansion, and this is against the advertise made for 5 years.

Somoe.3621:

I know why people want it but a Symbol that does damage to foes and applies Chill/Cripple to them wouldn’t be a Symbol. It would be better if, for example, we had a trait or something that caused Symbols to inflict Chill/Cripple when they pulse.

IF they apply a solution like this, a will be really, really , REALLY happy! And they can use trait to improve the rest of our mechanics to compensate the lack of ranged attack or mobility.

Voxdeus.1034:

Ganzo.5079:

It’s all intresting, but all this wait around a full release of the ascended items is kinda frustrating.
I hope for the next month patch, but for now this little article is not revamping my wish to play.

I don’t think there’s ever going to be a “full release,” I think they’re going to be rolled out gradually throughout the year. I could be wrong, that’s just what it sounds like.

Its what i think too, and for the ones that love to plan how to equip their char, gear it and then finally play the finished char, is something that discourage to play, because you dont know wich new piece they will add every month.

Somoe.3621:

Symbol of Fury/Glory/Reckoning/Divinity:

- Inscribe a mystic symbol onto the target area, damaging foes and granting Fury to allies.

I know people want one with Chill/Cripple but Symbols, by design, are supposed to provide some benefit to allies so I don’t see that working. Fury is a good fit in my opinion because it’s one of the more difficult Boons for Guardians to apply and it goes with Scepter’s theme of being a damage focused weapon.

Thoughts?

I agree, smite have to be a simbol, i really dont know why its not.

I know people want one with Chill/Cripple but Symbols, by design, are supposed to provide some benefit to allies so I don’t see that working

Simply because guardian have a problem, and its the lack of ranged attack and mobility, when all the other classes have theese 2 bonus. now to be competitive we have 2 choices,

1)speed up guardians and give them a good ranged option (and this is against the class ideology)
2)slow the enemy to keep him on melee range.

It’s all intresting, but all this wait around a full release of the ascended items is kinda frustrating.
I hope for the next month patch, but for now this little article is not revamping my wish to play.

My Old D&D characters

Obtena.7952:

Ynna.8769:

Obtena.7952:

I’m not sure what your definition of field control is. For me, it’s the ability to move people about, friend or foe, like a sheep dog controls sheep. A sheep dog doesn’t stand still to herd; mobile symbols would be more effective in controlling than what we presently have now.

This is something neither Symbols nor mobile Symbols would do. Symbols are just useless as a mechanic for field control.

Yeah, right now they are. If you simply made the current symbols mobile, they would be weak for field control. I don’t see anyone following a mace Guardian to get regen or protection from hammer. You also don’t see anyone running from symbol of wrath either. I’m going beyond simply advocating the current symbols be mobilized. I’m suggesting that mobile symbols could be a good anti-zerg mechanic for PVP.

If you took a step back and said “Hey, let’s make symbols that are mobile to enhance field control”, you could imagine a form they could take to be effective in that role.

if you add more effect to the simbols, and then you make them mobile, they will become extremely OP. Its just like say “hey attack me from distance because near me you are dead!”
Just think if they add some kind of Cripple\chill\“new condition simbol based only” with a stationary simbol. For example, you can Leap with you GS and then use the simbols to slow\punish you enemy for some second, then you can chain it, pull it, change weapon and use another simbol(but the possible combination are a lot). This will be a good form of control. your enemy have to be able to escape(but he can escape), not like now, where he have only to run away.

With the Aura you have only to be near you enemy(its worse then retaliation), and if you add a slowing effect or more damage, it will just become TOO OP. Damage, debuff or buff, only staying near the guardian.

Actual simbols need to be:

1)larger, because when not traited simbols are really too small.
2) they need a constriction aspect, the only simbols that dont need to be touched is the hammer simbol, but the others, need some kind of love.

Obtena.7952:

I’m not sure what your definition of field control is. For me, it’s the ability to move people about, friend or foe. Mobile symbols would be more effective in doing that than what we presently have now.

Field control is when you take an area and you apply something to infuse your influence on that particular area. And aura is for sure a field control mechanic, BUT have no tactics aspect, because you have only to keep the aura always active and rush the enemy, you dont have to think when or where use it, you have only to keep the aura active.
For now we have only an incomplete field control, That work on Spvp where you have to keep the point so you pratically dont move from a spot and its the enemy that come to you, but on WvW is “useless” because the map is larger and the enemy 90% of time hit and run. Our field control machenic Miss totally the punishing\constriction part.

Obtena.7952:

I like the idea that symbols could move with a person, including yourself if it’s a defensive symbol. I think that would differentiate guardians nicely from other ground targeting effects and boon applications. I’m still struggling with Dev’s concept of guardian … the one where guardians have some unique benefit from boons. Frankly I don’t see it but the ability to ‘move’ your AOE boons around with you would be a very interesting strategy and uniquely guardian.

But with this, the guardian just become a normal paladin with auras and some conjured weapon. Its not original or tactical, its just a paladin.

The base concept of the guardian class is awesome, but the realization of this concept is weak! thats the point.
If the guardian is supposed to be a “magical melee only fighter” the devs have only to develop this concept.

1)they have to improve boons (duration and effect) and they can do this by tweak or change our useless or nonsense traits.

2) they have to improve the concept of “field control”, and auras are not a solution to this. More wards (only 2 tied to the weapon choice are not enough), simbols and consecrations that slow\punish enemies. this is the solution.

Ynna.8769:

And the issue isn’t “learn[ing] to fight in your circle”, it’s the fact that we don’t have a lot of options for keeping our opponent in the circle, which means we lose out on either the boon it grants or the damage it provides (or both).

exactly what i think. but its not only a problem related to simbols, but to all that mechanic that imply some kind of ground control. For example consecration are on the same situation, ok you can cast em on target with the right trait, but nothing force the target to stay on your consecration.

Bigger simbols can be a good start, but simbols too big can create some sort of problem when a lot a guardian play on the same place. As i say from the GS nerf, guardian need a sort of control on simbols, related to the simbol “spam rate” and to the weapon balance.

Simbol of protection, for example, is ok in the actual situation, because hammer have and awesome mobility and a very good control, and when RoW will be fixed, it will become even better.

i vote for nothing, Why have to same mechanic on all classes? i prefer a mechanic to keep enemies on melee range!
if a want to play an heavy armor class with a good ranged option, i just roll a warrior.

guardians dont need a % speed increasing(this is out of the main class concept), but a % slow movement against the enemy.

Dynnen.6405:

Bakitten291:

@alarox

It should be mentioned that 2 of our immobilizes have 1200 range one of our gap closers has a 1200 range, we also have a knockdown from a signet, and also from spirit hammer. Also you forgot protection from save yourselves for 10 seconds. Also the virtue cleanse removes 3 conditions, works on a 48 second cd (due traits to get it) and is renewable on demand from our elite which pretty much everyone takes.

After playing a good amount of spvp and wvw i have really found that guardians honestly are not in that bad a spot. Yes, we dont have the mobility of other classes. But we do bring pretty much everything else in regards to tankiness, damage, and group combat.

Right, but we HAVE to take things to get some form of slowing. Other classes get it in their weapons. You are right that guards aren’t it a bad spot at all, but not having some form of slow is really rough.

And if you think that we are the Only “melee only” class, this lack become ridicolous.

Some teleport(that is just a teleport, without some snare effect) and 3 chains (tied to the weapon choice\signet) dont cover this lack, compared with other classes!

I agree With OP, guardian need something new to mantain the close combat range, but cripple on every weapon is little powerful. (the reach skills are just stupid, you reach the target, and then he go away again if you cant slow him)
I was thinking about something different, somethign like an Holy pressure for all the enemy that Walk on Our fields. (simbols\consacration), something like a -20% or -30% to movement, but the final effect must be chosen on the basis of the field “spam rate”, because the hammer simbol will be extremely powerfull with a snare ability, when the GS simbols need something better due to the Higher CD, And consecrations need a better effect then simbols.

ComeAndSee.1356:

Guardian’s can be incredibly powerful in the support role in WvW if they choose to build for it, but 95% of the Guardian’s I see out there are 2-handed builds.

• Wall of Reflection is by far the one of the most powerful abilities in WvW and it has a really short cooldown.

• Wall of Lining and Sanctuary can block off choke points. Organized guardians can block off choke points near indefinitely. Strategically placed walls can help slow down enemy movements.

• Our healing abilities (symbols, writ, empower, and battle presence) helps keep people alive. However, most people aren’t smart enough to stand in them.

• We can apply AOE stabilities with short cooldowns.

• Tomes are super powerful in massed up players.

• Bunker built (AH+lots of healing) is basically unkilable in WvW. You’re the ultimate front-line tank.

Frontline support Guardian’s are one of the most powerful classes ingame in WvW.

you totally miss the point in this thread.

Noone is saying that guardian is a weak class.

1) But that the actual mechaninc dont fit the description provided by devs And the class changes done until now too.

2) and we have not so many builds to use (you just proved this with your post)

Alarox.4590:

Ganzo.5079:

We know what is the class problem, but i dont think this is the solution.
We need something that can be used with all our builds (like a total simbols\consecration modification) and only when this mechanic is created, they can add improvement via traits.

So i agree with you, because we need something to keep the enemy on our range (cripple is the best option), but i dont think that a single grand master trait can help us. This, can be useful, only when guardians will have access to a deepest control mechanic.

You have to sacrifice something. If people go 30 Valor for survival, they can’t have it all. The problem IMO is that where we should have better offensive or control options, we don’t, and so the only viable choice is survival and support (30Valor+20Honor). There needs to be more of a reason to go into the other lines, and there needs to be better Grandmaster traits. At the moment, we could just rename the Guardian the “Altrustic Healer”.

Sure, but keep the enemy on range is a primary guardian need. when you have satisfied this need, you can improve it, and in this case, your idea will shine.

But this trait alone, is only another patch to our frankenstein class

We know what is the class problem, but i dont think this is the solution.
We need something that can be used with all our builds (like a total simbols\consecration modification) and only when this mechanic is created, they can add improvement via traits.

So i agree with you, because we need something to keep the enemy on our range (cripple is the best option), but i dont think that a single grand master trait can help us. This, can be useful, only when guardians will have access to a deepest control mechanic.

Alarox.4590:

Health Pool:

We compensate by stacking Toughness to make better use of our multiple forms of healing, and by using Blinds/Blocks to avoid burst. They could have just said that, because that’s the exact reality of it. We don’t use Boons to make up for the low health pool, we rely on Toughness and multiple forms of healing. The only time we rely on boons to make up for the low health pool are:

1.) Altrustic Healing build (and that’s about applying boons, not the effect of boons).
2.) Regeneration focused build (that’s 1 boon).

Area Control:

Outside of a few skills, we lack area control. Sure we have area control if you use the Hammer and Staff for 1 skill each and take long cooldown Consecrations with 10-20 mandatory points in Virtues while sacrificing any other form of utility from your utility slots.

Boon power:

I don’t really feel any more or less powerful without my boons. Sure, a bunker Guardian does, but that’s hardly the entire Profession, and all ArenaNet has done is nerf bunker Guardian boons (Protection and Retaliation). In my build I’ll have constant Vigor with random low-duration Retaliation and Protection, with some might stacks here and there.

Condition Removal:

I don’t see us having that much, really. Once again, it’s all about the Valor line. If you take Purity and Smite Condition/Contemplation of Purity then you’ll have a bunch of condition removal. Going for Inscribed Removal lacks synergy with many builds and requires the use Signets to be very useful (meaning you sacrifice a lot of other utility that’s almost mandatory like Meditations or Shouts). Going 20 into Virtues for the “remove 3 conditions” will only be sought after by full on bunker/support builds because of 0/0/30/20/20.

Melee Utility:

I agree we are almost entirely dependent on melee combat. However, we lack the tools to stay there. If you look at a Warrior or Thief… or a D/D Ele or a melee Engineer they all have no trouble getting into and staying in melee range. Warriors have long-duration cripple on almost every weapon and have gap closers on most weapons (and more access to swiftness). Thieves are self explanity. Elementalists easily have perma swiftness or the +25% boost, along with plenty of gap closers and chill/cripple. Even Engineers have chills/cripples/perma-swiftness/gap-closers, and can keep switching back and forth between kits to spam them. There’s nothing wrong with all these other classes having the ability to get in and stay in melee range, but the Guardian is the most melee-dependent Profession and yet they’re outclassed in melee staying power.

Exactly!
FOr what i can see (and i said this many times), our class is pratically “balanced” around the Spvp bunker role (role that anyway can be performed by other classes, and better then us), because with that role we arent supposed to catch the enemy, because its the enemy that need to take our point, But with this poor logic, we are forgetting a more active role for guardians, and the whole WvW play.

CMF.5461:

I really feel that symbols are not as effective as they could be. If a necromancer or a mesmer put stuff on the ground, everyone knows you NEED to get out of it. If a guardian puts a symbol on the ground its just kinda lol.

Our best symbol synergy comes with hammer and altruistic healing + writ of the merciful, as it is a constant application of symbols that only last for a short while, but that’s all you need as it will reapply soon.

We are very good at condition removal, but the rest of the professions are very good at applying conditions. So while you can remove conditions or convert them reliably, it is hard to justify it when they are right back on after our skills are used. I still run condition removal because I want to slow down enemy damage some how and we can do it better than most I think.

As you said, boons don’t make you godmode, and you don’t feel useless without them. So that reads to me that they don’t have a significant impact. You even stated you just think it is annoying and you keep smashing face.

Biggest problem with that is that these boons are what define a lot of our class mechanics and if they don’t matter then our class mechanics fail at the core.

i agree with you, our class is strong, but it seem just a patchwork of skill and traits. We dont have a real theme, and the famous description dont fit at all our mechanics.

• we are awesome on the condition removal work, but when a class can just spam conditions with every attack, i just feel the condition removal work, useless (ok its not, without it, i will be dead in an istant).

• We can rely on boons, but we arent special with them, our class is designed to run around the retaliation boon, that is the worst boon on this game. (its really strong, but is a tasteless mechaninc)
  We have a good protection uptime if we run with the hammer, and a decent regen uptime. Our might generation is good, but we cant hold a lot of stacks just like the other classes. i really prefer a less retaliation (id really want to see this boon, deleted from the game) uptime, and more uptime for the other boons, to diversify the playstyle.

• We need to be on melee range to deal damage, so we are supposed to control our enemy to force them on melee range (this is the real mean of “field control” and “punish enemy” ). Our simbols need something else to be effective, but not only them, we need more wards(only 2 tied to the weapon choice, i cant consider this a class mechaninc) and even consecrations need a more punitive aspect.
  We\they cant really base the mean of “ground control”, with the bunker role on Spvp. Other classes can hold a point, but they arent supposed to have a ground control theme.

Conkuur.3062:

Seriously People “It was a developer mistake” is what you are going with?

Lets say a Brinks truck is unloading cash and leaves the door open. Is it still stealing if you take it or is it the drivers fault? Yeah ok explain that to the judge. Oh and take the soap on the rope with you.

bad example.
All know that stealing is a crime.
But salvaging you own Items is not on GW2. Thats the problem. If they create an item for a Seasonal event that provide more ectos then normal ones, How many players will think that this is an exploit?

Its ok if they punish poeple that abused this, but not with a permaban, because is just their fault too, its not like abuse the texture invulnerability on WvW

Kanthor.2094:

Except for the RMT bot squads and serious hacking (like the warp hack used by RMT bot squads), I think a permanent ban is way too harsh, especially if it’s the first offence.

Its not only too harsh, but virtually this is an intimidation to all players.
Really im discouraged by things like this, because theese are not hidden exploits, any one have access to receipes, so anyone can “exploit” accidentally the receipe.

From my point of view this is just another QA fault, fixed in a brutal way.

Our traits are not special out of the valor line, and this is a known issue from the very beginning. Our class is supposed to be some sort of tactical melee fighter, but our customization options, lack of tactical part.

I made a lot of proposition on a single thread about how the devs can modify traits and skill to giver us a more dept and tactical class.

now the worst things for guardians on the traitline is the condition damage stat. We really dont need this stat, Burning is the worst condition in terms of condi damage scaling, id like to see some other conditions, maybe tied to that +5% damage traits, that are kinda lame compared with the other classes.
Id like to see some kind of “enemy control” too, we are supposed to be primary melee but we have a poor mechaninc to force the opponent on our attack range, we lack of mobility and our teleport skills are only usefull to reach the opponent, but are useless if the enemy have +25% speed then us and we cant block or slow down him.

GUardian is not very shiny with a dps Spec at the actual state. There is some good Dps spec, but you have to in any case to max the valor line that is our primary traitline for all the specs.
A guardian with low toughness, Due to the innate low healt, is just a dead guardian the 80% of the times. you are level 63 so spend 30 point on valor and take altruistic healing (but is less effective now for solo play) or focus on meditations and go with monk focus.

For weapons, if you have problems to survive, one of your weaponset must be Mace+focus(block with mace #3 and focus #5, healing with mace autoattack 3, mace simbol, focus #4, and blind with focus #4), for the second weapon pick what you like, for more Damage, go with GS, that is awesome if you want to aggro a lot of mobs with the #5 skill, for more survivability pick hammer.

Ok i was roaming around my whole idea the last night, and maybe i have something different to apply. Is a different idea that aim to improve two things:

1)simbols and consacrations.
2)aegis boon.

- As i said on the last post, our class need some kind of “soft” close range control, this thing can be simply don by the modification of simbols and consecrations to provide some kind of malus to the enemy that step on this marked areas. (that’s for me is the real mean of field control), Now the optimal tools for this tweaking are: Cripple, Chill, immobilization, I dont like to much, stuns and knock back but they can be added too (this is only for personal taste).

- the most important thing, A boon to help the guardian too feel strong when its active. Retaliastyion is just tasteless, and other classes can use it too, with lower uptime, but it can be used by them too.
Now we have only ONE boon that is exclusive for the guardian class, and it AEGIS, but the actual effect, is surely usefull (some damage reduction is always welcomed) but it dont help to feel strong.

So i propose to modify enterely the aegis boon to provide a direct damage block and a little bonus to our toughness (that is our primary defense stat).

• Damage Block provided: 38 * char level = 3040 damage block at level 80 (i have to look better this, its only a beta formula XD)

• Toughness added: 2 * level = 160 toughness when aegis is UP.

Now a couple of note to make this work properly.
SKills that cast AOE aegis, apply the whole effect to the party, but the effect dont stack. So if 2 guardians use two aoe aegis skills, the first aegis effect it will be simply “refreshed” to the level of the last Skill used.

Thi modification can be improved by traits on all the trait lines to improve how aegis work:
- more uptime
- More aegis casting methods (for now only 2 methods are active)
- Different boon tied to aegis.

Useless to say that the more ways we have to keep aegis up, and less damage aegis have to block, to mantain a certain balance.
WIth this tweak, traits that work when “aegis is up”. are more helpfull, because to make aegis vanish with one hit, your enemy need to hit you really hard! same thing for that talent traits that work on block. Less damage the enemy do to you, more block you have and with this more proc traits.

Edit:

Last thing: REMOVE AEGIS FROM THE RANDOM BOON CASTING

Arken.3725:

That makes sense, we just need a cripple attached to the symbols to actually keep players in them.

Exactly, a slow effect based on the simbol spam rate..because simbol of protection is more spammable then simbols of wrath. and simbols of Swiftness can be used without be on melee situation. so for me.

Simbol of protection=nothing, hammer is just powerfull enough as weapon.

Simbol of swiftness = cripple (it provide just a good movement addiction)

Simbol of faith = chill or cripple

Simbol of wrath = immobilize or chill. (not sure here, gs is an heavy hitting weapon, maybe cripple can work just fine here but the simbol is kitten slow)

and also id like to see a simbol applied to the other two weapon, to expand this theory

Arken.3725:

I just don’t like having to be in one place to stay alive.

Its not just stay alive.
If simbols become auras, the only way to balance them is delete or heavily nerf the damage and\or every possible malus applied to the enemy, because it will become worse then retaliation, you damage the enemy without attacking him, but only staing near him… isnt it pretty OP?.

IF simbols have a movement malus addicion to the enemy(with the other effects), you can be twice effective without be OP, you can get your boons, you can damage the enemy for a while when is “trapped” by you simbol (you have to be skilled because you have to trap the enemy, thats the funny part :P) and with the slow effect you can prevent your enemy to flee for a while, so you can damage him with your skills “arsenal”.
this is just an improvement to the concept of “melee only class”

but food is not a class related mechanic, thief and warrior can use that combo better then us.
And that food is pretty OP, i think it will be tweaked soon.

Kami.7369:

Sounds like Leap of Faith is broken. Bug in our favor!

Added a cd of 60 seconds for the bonus of blind exposure o.o

Arken.3725:

-Remove retaliation(it’s a lazy buff to inflict damage)
-change symbols to auras (make the necessary nerfs/buffs as needed)
-Have spirit weapons give a reasonable purpose and improve AI
-increase boon time when specced for it(just like how elementalists are)

1) remove retaliation can be traumatic for alot of people (i hate it too anyway) but simply tweak it, less uptime, with a real damage reflection.

2) i dont like the idea of the auras, i prefer something to lock the enemy, like a slow\chill\immobolize field, based on the current simbols uptime. And maybe, see simbols on the two weapon that remain without them (swords and scepters)

3)agree

4)agree

Heinel.6548:

They are unlikely to overhaul any system post launch. The best we can hope for is tweaks. Some can be just numerical changes. Purging flames is clearly underpowered, but if they drop its cooldown to be more in line with smite condition maybe people will consider it. Others might need functional tweaks, like hallowed ground is too niche right now. Is there anything we can do to make it a viable alternative to stand your ground? Like say, let it pulse blind on enemies?

Then there’s the spirit weapons, which are technically not utility skills at all. They give extra damage, but no stun breaking, no IMS, no gap closer. Currently the only spirit weapon builds are glass-cannon gankers with no mobility, are we okay with that? Should we rethink what spirit weapons do for us?

Those are changes that actually has a chance to get into the game, and could make guardians less of a one trick pony with dry game play.

There are a lot of thing on our class that Can be good, but are just Tasteless.

Spirit weapons are just one of them, but also consacrations, and simbols need love.
And the whole “Field control” and “Position punishment” concepts that for now are just Absent.
The only skill that grant some kind of Field control and position punishment is “wall of reflection”

Heinel.6548:

Seems like a well thought out idea, but it’s unlikely to ever happen. The whole reason why this boon system was introduced at all was so that they can normalize all buffs into one standard. Back in GW1’s time they had enchantments giving buffs of their own and the enchantment based classes had stronger enchantments. They scrapped that for the current implementation in GW2.

The biggest problems with guardians right now seems to be that everyone is feeling pigeonholed into valor/honor builds because our only viable utilities are either shouts or meditation. The biggest deviation to this is maybe those who sacrifice one slot for sanctuary. It’d be much better if they make our clearly underpowered or underutilized utility skills functional, so we can have a more diverse playstyle.

Well thanks, but its not really a problem if my whole idea will be cornered. Im just pointing my finger on the existing issues of our class, and for me Propose something that i studied is better then simply say : “HEY THIS THING DONT WORK, FIX IT”.

Now looking on this thread, we all think on the same way, our class is pretty strong, but:

• Dont fit that famous description, we are just pigeonholed to the bunker role after every patch, we have a very poor control mechaninc, and our boons have nothing special compared with other classes
• We lack of build variety, and after every patch we lost some viable build without some kind of compensation to revamp another build\role , i dont know, maybe they think that if they remove our OP mechaninc, we will spread around the old and uneffective builds, but the real result is that we simply go in the same direction, the ONE OP BUILD, no one want to play a kittenty build.

from your perspective, but look a larger circle.

they can survive a lot, Better then us because if the dont do much damage to the enemy, or the enemy is strong, they can always flee at the speed of the light.
A guardian is tough, but if the enemy is stronger then the gard, you have a really low chance to run away.

Arken.3725:

I’d like to see the removal of Retaliation. But in return, give us more access to boons more frequently like the Elementalist has. As “boon fighters” we have very low durations to said boons with long cds.

That exactly a part of what i think. As “boons fighters” we can rely on the uptime of a single boon, that is not offensive or defensive, is just a passive tool to deal damage.

The 3 boons that must be improved for guards are:

• Might: we have a good amount of might generation, but we cant stack it on a good number.

• Protection: protection is good for us, some guardian build rely on an havy proptection uptime, but there are classes with the same (if not better) protection uptime, but we are supposed to be the defensive class O.o

• Regeneration: only for the low health issue. on my proposition i proposed something that can cover this issue for a bit (a little boon uptime for this) but its only a proposition, this boon can be boosted in a lot of way.

Theese 3 for me are the 3 signature boons for guardians. Retaliation as i said is not defensive or offensive, is just a passive damage tool (and in an action game in blasphemy) and aegis is just “uneffective”, it can be invalidated by one single attack, it will be better is instead of block an attack, it block a definite amount of damage and the vanish (idea that i have on this moment while im writing lol):

Something like 3 or 4K of direct damage block at level 80 upgradable with traits, so:

(1) it can trigger our block traits
(2) it cant block condition damage.

With this, it can be good as Heavy hitting mitigator, control multi hit abilities and its not wasted if the enemy autoattack.

About the guardians balance, we all know that the description provided to us on the 12\14 patch notes dont fit what actually the class is, so:

• There is any plan to provide to us a proper class that fit that description?
• If yes, can we have some hint about?

raubvogel.5071:

since there are foes out there that are able to remove or turn your boons i am not a fan of anything boon related.

Thats exactly a part of the game, we cant be invicibles ^^
If an enemy hit your weak point, you have to be ready with a plan (B)

We all know that meditation healing is really solid.
But, but you miss the whole point of this rage, with all the nerfs since the beginning they are cutting down a lot of viable builds, and now its the turn of the non hammer AH builds.
its not the fact to give to med healing a chance, its the fact the maybe not all builds have to use meditations to work.

Im not so satisfied by our elite skills.

• Reneved focus is very good, but with long cd and low effect duration. One of theese two variables need to be adjusted (personal taste, i prefer the invulnerability duration)

• The two tome are good(not awesome, but good), but i dont understand why with the tome out we cant use our Skills from 6 to 9, the tomes effects dont justify this limitation.

Brutaly.6257:

Giving boons a special twist/effect in guardians traitlines would have a huge impact on other professions which are also supposed to be supportive in nature.

i understand you argument, but this make me thinks that maybe i express badly myself.
Im not aim to make guardian a better supporter.
The boons improvement are applied only to the guardian so, if a guardian use Hold the line and have the maxed valor traitline, the guardian Get the 40% damage reduction, all the other member the classic 33%. Same thing is for boons duration, or boon application.
If a guardian with maxed radiance line use retreat, the guardian get 4 additional seconds to swiftness, 4 seconds of fury, and the aegis boon, all the other members get the normal shout bonus.

RP talking its like if the guardian Study a particular discipline to improve the magic affects applied to him to better level, a method to overcome the lack of physical traning (the opposite of the warrior), so a zealot guardian is more focused on heavy offensive boons (might), a radiance guardian focus himself on versatility, a valor guardian look the enemy straght in the face without move (damage reduction), an honor guardian learn how to improve his healing ability (its reming me tsunade from naruto lol), and a virtue guardian improve the signature virtue boon (aegis)

1. I find it to be to complex
2. Have a huge relative impact of the value of other classes who wants to be supportive
3. Uneccessary complex for fixing the issues we have. Its a complete revamp we are talking about and i dont find that needed at all.

1)maybe, but not so much as you think (from my perspective)
2)already explained that is not a support role boost
3)yes its exactly a complete class revamp, now looking you suggestion, it can be good too(and its simplest then mine), we need a lot of work on our traits, not only on zeal (that is anyway the worst traitline we have, an its become worse after the SOW nerf) but also, a total rwork of other traitlines.

I re-quote my traits propositions

Zeal:

• Greatsword power: Damage increase by 10%
• Scepter power : When you crit with a scepter attack you apply burn to your enemy.
• Zealous blade: heal you based on the formula (Level*0.225)+(healing power*0.03) , if you stack no healing power the trait heal you for a lower value then the original trait, but if you stack healing power the heal will be better and better.
  Some calculation based on this formula:
  With no healing power= 18 hp/hit
  With 300 healing power=27 hp/hit
  With 1000 healing power= 48 hp/hit

Radiance

• Inner fire: gain 5 seconds of fury when you are inflicted by 2 or more conditions (45 sec CD)
• Powerful blades: When you crit with a sword or spear attack, you apply 2 stacks of bleeding and you are healed by 18 hp

Valor

• Mace of justice: increase the mace autoattack speed. (i dont know if its possibile without break the animation.)
• Glacial heart: same effect but CD reduced to 25 seconds

Honor:

• Wrathful spirit: Aegis Give you 3 seconds of Fury when it ends. (ok this is selfish, i hate retaliation lol, but i think it will be better with fury ^^)
• Battle precence: this triats is buggy, but even if it work, give no benefit to the guardian that use it. So simply shift this from grandmaster to master
• Writ of exaltation (writ of exaltation + writ of persistence) This become a grandmaster trait, simbols are larger and last longer. (after this, we miss a trait to the honor line, every advice is welcomed, and i was thinking about something relate to staffs and tridents but i have no ideas for now)

Virtues:

• Unscathed Contender: give +50% damage when under the effect of aegis (if the enemy dont waste a single attack to strip aegis from us, its his fault if he die!)
• Permeating wrath: Virtue of courage grant 3 seconds of fury when you activate it

@brutality
your idea is good and intresting, but its simply dont solve the actual problem of lack of build variety.
Now im not saying tha my idea is can solve all the problems of our class, but the boon tweak + traits tweaks that i proposed always on this thread, can Revamp some builds.

just one stupid example, look the tweak to powerful blades, with some bleeding stack on one of our weapons, it can make viable some sort of Condition damage build if associated with an high crit build. Im Just proposing not only a boon revamp (that is essential to match the devs description) but also some type of class variety addiction

You mean customize the virtue sistem with traits? and How?
it can be a good idea, but not with the existing virtue sistem, Too long base CD when you use the activated part. The only fun to use is the virtue of justice, that have a mid time CD and its customizable to Blind enemies or refresh with kills.

i edited the first post With my proposal, with the correct formulas.
I cant add the trait modification part to that post due to space limit :P

Aza.2105:

I think your ideas are cool but I’m going to be honest I do not like the RNG part of your proposition. The only thing it will do is make players have less control of their character since they will be victims to “chance”. I’d rather have a consistent value with a moderate cooldown tied to it.

the only part that rely on RNG is the might addition stacks on the zeal line. 10% chance to double a single stack of might(whit 25 points on zeal) is a good addition for us and its not a killer ability. and tied with that there is the improved might formula that is THE CORE part of the zeal proposition ^^
The rest of the quoted part is RNG free :P

ok ill add some trait idea to this

Zeal line:
every point assigned to the zeal line give to the guardian a better application of the might boon.
Actual might formula: 0.375 * Level + 5 = 35 attack power or condition damage at level 80 per stack
My formula: (0.375 * level) + 5 + (points on zeal * 0.3)= 44 attack power or condition damage per stack at level 80 WITH MAXED ZEAL LINE, if you have no points on zeal, formula work in the old way.
Traits:
Zealot speed give you a 5% change to gain another stack of might when you gain might, with the other offects
Simbolic exposure give you a 7% change to gain another stack of might when you gain might, with the other offects
Simbolic power give you a 10% change to gain another stack of might when you gain might, with the other offects
a little note to all, before say that this tweak is OP, keep in mind that in order to max zeal line, the guardian have to drop defenses, so its a perfect solution to the ones that want to play as fullglass cannon.
————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————
Radiance:
Swiftness duration : Base boon duration + boon duration modifyer+ (points on radiance* 0.25)
Basically with 30 point on radiance you gain 4 seconds on the swiftness duration.
Traits:
justice is blind When you gain swiftness, you gain 2 seconds of fury too, with the other traits effects
renewed justice When you gain swiftness, you gain 3 seconds of fury too, with the other traits effects
Radiant power When you gain swiftness, you gain 4 seconds of fury too, with the other traits effects (i dont know if its the case to touch this trait that is powerful enoght, for me its better to stop at the step 2)
————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————
Valor:
Protection Damage reduction: 33% + (points on valor * level * 0.003) = 40% damage reduction with maxed valor line at level 80.
i dont touch minor traits here, the formula effect is powerful enough
————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————
Honor
Regeneration duration: Base boon duration + Boon modifyer + (point on honor * 0.25)
Same duration addiction as radiance, 4 seconds when maxed line.
I dont touch minor traits here, not because the formula is strong, but because minor traits on this line are the best minor traits we have.
Virtue
Aegis improvement here i not propose a real formula, but a simply aegis improvement by the tweak of 2 traits.
Virtues of retribution: Aegis can block 2 attacks before vanish
Power of the virtuous: Aegis can block 3 attacks before vanish
—————————————————————————————————————————————

Zeal:

• Greatsword power: Damage increase by 10%

• Scepter power : When you crit with a scepter attack you apply burn to your enemy.

• Zealous blade: heal you based on the formula (Level*0.225)+(healing power*0.03) , if you stack no healing power the trait heal you for a lower value then the original trait, but if you stack healing power the heal will be better and better.
  Some calculation based on this formula:
  With no healing power= 18 hp/hit
  With 300 healing power=27 hp/hit
  With 1000 healing power= 48 hp/hit

Radiance

• Inner fire: gain 5 seconds of fury when you are inflicted by 2 or more conditions (45 sec CD)
• Powerful blades: When you crit with a sword or spear attack, you apply 2 stacks of bleeding and you are healed by 18 hp

Valor

• Mace of justice: increase the mace autoattack speed. (i dont know if its possibile without break the animation.)

• Glacial heart: same effect but CD reduced to 25 seconds

Honor:

• Wrathful spirit: Aegis Give you 3 seconds of Fury when it ends. (ok this is selfish, i hate retaliation lol, but i think it will be better with fury ^^)

• Battle precence: this triats is buggy, but even if it work, give no benefit to the guardian that use it. So simply shift this from grandmaster to master

• Writ of exaltation (writ of exaltation + writ of persistence) This become a grandmaster trait, simbols are larger and last longer. (after this, we miss a trait to the honor line, every advice is welcomed, and i was thinking about something relate to staffs and tridents but i have no ideas for now)

Virtues:

• Unscathed Contender: give +50% damage when under the effect of aegis (if the enemy dont waste a single attack to strip aegis from us, its his fault if he die!)

• Permeating wrath: Virtue of courage grant 3 seconds of fury when you activate it

+1% on boons duration is like assign 1 point to the virtue traitline.
So basically this thirt stat point option is like have only 20 stats point assigned on the thirt stat. Kinda lame i have to say.

a 2 or 3% is a more balanced way, but i really dont invest on a set like this.

Oh COME ON, its only the name of the skill! no one choose the skill to use for the name lol!
For what i know the name skill can be “bring coffee to me” so its not a real yardstick to justify a change, even our meditations, doesnt seem like real meditations, but i see no one whine about them.
Every class in a game WITHOUT trinity, must be primarily selfish and then the same tool can be used to help others or increase teamwork, BUT every tool of the class, must be Strong For the CLASS ALONE.

Nero.8135:

Mesmer and guardian want to kill one another, random encounter in Lion’s Arch.
They have access to all of their abilities and traits. It’s a pen & paper role play-style fight, just to be clear.
So who do you think comes out the winner?

i think that win the mesmer. IF the encounter is on a free space the guardian have some possibility to catch the mesmer on close distance just because the mesmer cant hide. but in a situation with a lot of environmental blocks and hiding place the mesmer have an easy way to win.

Bakitten291:

Well thats part of what i mean. We have plenty of useless traits that we could switch to give some sort of small fury buff. Like our retaliation on heal better belongs in virtues as virtues has all the retal traits. Just improving some of the useless traits to help with fury would make alot of sense.

thats for sure.
id love to exchange all that +5% damage to a single weapon with traits that provide more boon strenght or apply conditions. But The whole concept of this idea is provide a sostancial bonus to us (based on the devs guardian description)without recreate things.

Bakitten291:

I would honestly just give fury to radiance and leave swifness for virtues instead of mixing them into one line. I do agree we need more ways for fury though and maybe instead of buffing the duration of fury or crit chance maybe have it add some crit damage (at most like 5% more) because honestl 20% added crit chance is pretty strong and really doesnt need more. And also i see fury as more of a burst style buff than one that should be up all the time.

this mean add skills and ability that add more fury, swiftness is a way more accessible to guards then fury, and with this tweak the guard can choose if attack and rely on crits, or flee\run.

looking our actual Self source of swiftness:

• Simbols of swiftness: 15 sec cd untraited \need staff
• Save your self: 60 sec untrated, 48 sec with trait (on this case the tweak is useless, SYS provide a longer source of fury then my tweak) Fill an utility slot
• retreat: 60 sec untraited, 48 sec with trait, fill an utility slot.
• Smither boon (tome of wrath): i never use the tome, buf is it work, is another surce of switfness for us, but if means fill the elite Slot. and usable every 180 seconds

Our fury source

Save yourself (look above)
Inner fire: Gain fury when you suffer from burn condition
Zealot fervor (tome of wrath) Every 180 sec
———————————————————————————————————————-

now on my example i prefer to mix swiftness and fury, because i look radiance as the High mobility guardian traitline. Move or do burst damage., and well because Swiftness is a boon that guardian cant use always (just look the skills cd) and the fury duration provided by my tweak is not so long, but it can make the difference if used wisely.

and i have to be honest but i think that the 20% crit chance provided by fury, is a way too high, its better to not increase it

ok after some “study” around the wiki, i have some example to propose. an take into account theese are only my examples.

Zeal line:

every point assigned to the zeal line give to the guardian a better application of the might boon.

Actual might formula: 0.375 * Level + 5 = 35 attack power or condition damage at level 80 per stack

My formula: (0.375 * level) + 5 + (points on zeal * 0.3)= 44 attack power or condition damage per stack at level 80 WITH MAXED ZEAL LINE, if you have no points on zeal, formula work in the old way.

Traits:
Zealot speed give you a 5% change to gain another stack of might when you gain might, with the other offects

Simbolic exposure give you a 7% change to gain another stack of might when you gain might, with the other offects

Simbolic power give you a 10% change to gain another stack of might when you gain might, with the other offects

a little note to all, before say that this tweak is OP, keep in mind that in order to max zeal line, the guardian have to drop defenses, so its a perfect solution to the ones that want to play as fullglass cannon.
————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————
Radiance:

Swiftness duration : Base boon duration + boon duration modifyer+ (points on radiance* 0.25)
Basically with 30 point on radiance you gain 4 seconds on the swiftness duration.

Traits:
justice is blind When you gain swiftness, you gain 2 seconds of fury too, with the other traits effects

renewed justice When you gain swiftness, you gain 3 seconds of fury too, with the other traits effects

Radiant power When you gain swiftness, you gain 4 seconds of fury too, with the other traits effects (i dont know if its the case to touch this trait that is powerful enoght, for me its better to stop at the step 2)
————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————
Valor:

Protection Damage reduction: 33% + (points on valor * level * 0.003) = 40% damage reduction with maxed valor line at level 80.

i dont touch minor traits here, the formula effect is powerful enough
————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————

Honor

Regeneration duration: Base boon duration + Boon modifyer + (point on honor * 0.25)
Same duration addiction as radiance, 4 seconds when maxed line.

I dont touch minor traits here, not because the formula is strong, but because minor traits on this line are the best minor traits we have.

Virtue

Aegis improvement here i not propose a real formula, but a simply aegis improvement by the tweak of 2 traits.

Virtues of retribution: Aegis can block 2 attacks before vanish
Power of the virtuous: Aegis can block 3 attacks before vanish
————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————

I now before post this reply, i want to remark one thing. on this post i have make only mere examples, i dont pretend to be a real dev, i have a little experience in modding shards on NWN, so i use my little experience on this.

Edit

a little sidenote on how aegis work, its a month that i dont actively play on game so i havent tested it, but its better if aegis block attacks only if there arent other block effects active (like protector strike, shelter, zealot defence), this is only to NOT WASTE our active defences if Virtue of courage refresh aegis during a skill activation, and to not waste our overall defense.