Guild Wars 2

I have consider the low healt pool as a bad thing, only in the first week of play, but the regeneration, condition removal, aegis, defensive skill etc etc… make me reconsider this thing

Another solution is to realize that nothing is wrong with what they did. Forcing ppl to branch off to a weapon swap was probably their intention. You talk about auto attack as if what you were doing before didn’t have it’s own mindless pattern once you found a rotation. 3,4,f1,2 repeat. With the SoW being up on an 8 second cool down from the press of the button, meant that we could cleanse conditions with almost a 100% up time of SoW. I was 20 points into zeal line. Since nerf I have stripped Zeal line and dumped it all into radiance, touchiness and virtues, and I might add, I like the build a lot better.

You are contraddicting yourself man, if the modification have NOTHING WRONG, why do you change your build? YOU know the problem and you discarded the zeal line.
Even if i dont use zeal line, for my playstile 20 sec on cd is a lot of time, i swap weapon on every cooldown because i like a fast gameplay. something like
Pull mob away from the friends (gs5 x2), simbol, leap, spin->switch to mace->simbol->parry (mace3)->ray of judgment etc etc.

But this is not a rotation, the skill usage is determined by the situation, and if a return to GS and i have 7 or 8 seconds left on the simbol cd, its a lot of trouble.

i have some solutions for this…

1) SOW damage -20%(based on damage before the 22\10 patch)
might (3 stacks) or fury only when you are above the simbol
CD 10 sec
--——————————————————————————————————————————————
2)no change on Sow damage or boons (based on damage before the 22\10 patch)
CD 15 sec
so if before the 7\10 patch we had cd like (1-10-10-20-30)
with this modification we have (1-10-15-15-30)
and i think this is still a good compromise.

Wobels.1679:

I just say split it dont nerf pve i dont even play my guardian now cause of the nerfs to pve and the gear i went for im not about to spend all my time farming more karma for the gear to become useless again cause of something in pvp… i dont mind learning 2 seperate skill trees and specing for each thats one reason why you can respec for free in spvp anyways right? so what just change what the traits say when your in the mists and in the world it wont bother me one bit. what does bother me is nerfing something to where my build becomes useless and all the gear i have obtained becomes useless..

Maybe useless no, but thats one of the sad things that player that just say “if you dont like the change, just reroll” dont get, because people on PVE spend a lot of time for equipping, make money and karma, when for Spvp its all free.
Ruin a build that you are playing, when you have “invested” a lot of time on it its like spit on your face.

GS\mace+focus →for dungeons and orr exploring
Staff\mace+focus →for particular parts of dungeon.
GS\Scepter+Shield →WvWvW
Hammer\mace+shield → Spvp

LOP for me was fine with his 20 sec CD.

Animus.6073:

Sorry, I couldn’t resist. Topic title was just too good to pass up in my eyes. If you’ll forgive the ploy, that isn’t actually what I want to focus on. I understand that many people are upset with the recent change to “Save Yourselves!” while others are promoting the change as a more balanced approach to sPvP.

What I would like to really focus on with this discussion, is the emergence of a disparity between functions of an ability in PvE and PvP. I was hoping that it would never come to this, because I really don’t like the way that feels. In my opinion, an ability should be balanced to work both in PvP and PvE, and if it can’t, it should be redesigned. However, that is just my opinion, and I’m sure others will disagree.

What concerns me is that this change sets a precedent for things to come. I really don’t want to see the gap widened between functionality of abilities in PvP and PvE. What do you all think about this?

Have the same skill can be right if PVE = PVP, and this is not our case.
the only thing that can be odd is PVP and WvWvW with different skills.

a +10% damage on SOW is a joke! we lost sinergies not damage…

Why simply don’t delete retaliation from the simbol?
Is the damage of the simbol in the shot time the problem? so do something like this!

-20% damage (based on the value before the 22\10 patch)
another boon instead of retaliation
10\12sec CD.

so, less damage, no retaliation if we dont activate the combo field, but we dont lost the sinergies!

I like the suggestion of a +1sec based on the liched conditions.

+1 from me

Guardians are not dead lol, But we need to raise up our voices instead of keep silence and reroll.

@eveningstar: yeah but not all GS simbols users rely on zeal line.
From my experience, even if i use e pure support build, some fight(on dungeon) are just to frenetic to use 2 slow weapons and thats the case where GS shine (before the 7/10 patch).
Yeah the the zeal line have surely a problem: minor traits for simbols and the only weapons dedicated with major simbols are GS (really slow simbol) and scepter (no simbol), but thats not all. A CD of 20 sec on a core class skill is still too high.

@Brutal: really i dont see a big picture… i look what i have in the hands now, im not a seer, and for now the things dont work properly. (for me is intended.)

Eveningstar.6940:

What about the buff to Symbol of Wrath?

All the thing you write are just fine…and i respect you.
I quote only this, because this “buff” is a joke… in any case -50% on cd and +10% on damage is not fine, +10% damage don’t fix the lost sinergies on the traitline.
Really i prefer a Sow like this:

-20% damage
any other boon instead of retaliation
10\12 sec cd.

Ynna.8769:

Whether the Greatsword needed change (and whether the changes we got were a good idea) is very debatable. What can be said is that the Greatsword got rather boring because of the change and lost a lot of it’s potential, without losing too much power.

you hit the nail… the offensive power is surely lower then before, but is quite good… but the supportive part(via traiting) of the GS is ruined.
As i say, we can swap weapons during combat of course, but change from gs to mace, hammer or staff, then reswap to gs and see that the simbol is still on CD…well its frustrating…

Brutaly.6257:

The gs didnt affect many build? Are we playing the same game, i would say gs is/was the dominant weapon and hence needed a nerf, it was overpowered in some aspects. Its a totally different issues if the nerf solved those issues though.

Some nerf ok, i can agree with you, but double the cd of a core mechanic like a simbol with 4 sinergies (1 of them is mandatory if you want the +5% damage on gs) on the trait line, is not the right way.

In this game cant exist a SUPPORT ONLY class, because its against the non trinity concept.
But some changes, go in that way.

The nerf on save your self its an example of “reasoned nerf”: why nerf the WHOLE skill? simply nerf The OP aspect… and i think this is good.

but the GS case its totally different, they nerf a weapon (and the sinergy) for a single aspect…and this is a case of bad design. 10% on sow damage, make me laugh.

Dark Kain.3870:

So: the positive aspect is that they are actually reading the forum, since it is obvious they have recognized the overall nerf to GS Symbol Builds.
.

im really not so sure of this… too many good suggestions, and no one listen…

i dont care the event update, but some classes modification are made without sense. +10% damage on SOW is pretty ridicolous, they throw a bone of kitten to us, and they want we spend real money for gems? i think NO!

i really have no words… well they really have not other money from me, because they are really making fun of us -_- .
I accept all the changes, but that +10% damage un sow its a kittening joke, no one asked that… as i say in another thread, i prefer -20% damage but the old cd back with another boon… W.T.F are they thinking!

+10% damage on SOW… W.T.F.!!! are they kidding

i prefer -20% damage but the old cd back with another buff…

why were gs symbols builds popular? Because they where very strong. 8sec recast on a symbol that lasts for 6secs is pretty perma for me… All right its notvrealy perma but still…
A Symbol that stacks up on vurnability, heals you, grants retaliation, is able to apply crits via decent pbao damage on multiple targets to trigger effects and adds hits to virtue of justice activation.
Sound kind of too Good to be true. Guess what … It is WHEN you can do it with two weapon sets.
GS got the Short Stick and got nerfed. Because with whirling Wind ist already had a Huge pbaoe damage skill. Big whup.
As stated the reason anet gave is Not convincing. Live with it. Anet will not admit to it. Tweaking mechanics sounds better then fixing a mistake.
If you want to Play a Symbol Centered Build you still can…. Just not with gs alone.
These things Happen in mmos… All. The. Time.

1)the only thing really op in the GS simbol build is retaliation, so they can simply strip off retaliation from the simbol, and anyway its really effective only for PVE play, because if a player stand up on a simbol whitout move, well its his fault if he die.

2) all people that are actually sad with this modification dont use ONLY the GS.
They use off course others weapons, but now most of the time, when you swap from a weapon(mace or staff for me) to the GS the kittening simbol is still on CD!

Simbol of protection + mighty blow provide group retaliation as well, even faster, and whitout stand on the simbol.

Sentinel VX.1392:

20 seconds cooldown for a 3 seconds symbol is ridiculous.
I wouldn’t mind if it’s 15 seconds, but 20 seconds? wtf are they thinking.

15 second instead of 10, well it’s sure a nerf, but its a reasonable nerf.

They didn’t need to respond to the complaints because the complaints are for the most part stupid. They already said why they nerfed Symbol of Wrath. If you think we need a dev to come to the forum to tell us the same thing they already told us right in the patch notes every time they make a change, then you’re just being massively entitled.

i reply only this part, because the rest dont need a reply.
For you its all clear, so WHY for many of us it’s not? The problem was the GS damage? ok so why dont write it instead of write something like

We are moving towards retaliation being more of a counter to taking many hits rather than a general boon to keep up all the time. We also wanted to improve the combo finisher of the guardian, so we reorganized guardian greatsword skills to the following:

-and retaliation builds still have 100% uptime. So THIS log, for me its NOT CLEAR AT ALL!

my tank\heal build need a large use of the weapons swap, but swap the weapon(mace to GS in my case) and see that your simbol is on CD, well can be really frustrating -_-"

We arent weak, we are strong, very strong, we are guardians!
our class only need some optimization (like all the other classes) to really fullfil every role (even if we are a heavy oriented support class)

27 here, i really love Gw2, but i hope that devs can balance more the game to make it really and action mmorpg with no trinity!

iowen.4217:

guardian plays still well(cleric),but only GS does not.

(but the motivation to play guardian is very low,something like “what will they take nxt ???fear”)

Yeah i think you center a vital point, most of us, me included, have farm dungeons or karma for their belowed GS.

Server maintenance done, no change, and even worse, no reply from devs on the guardian’s forum.

i still have faith on Anet work , but this silence, its really disappointing.

The biggest problem is that the hammer is so boring to use. I tried it for about an hour and just gave up because I play games for fun not boredom. Will play other professions or other games until this gets sorted out.

Be careful when addressing subjectiveness as a problem. Everyone has a different play style and some find the hammer very fun to use.

you are right, so why have a GS, exactly like an hammer? (or even worse than hammer in terms of speed)
Some guardian player like a slow gameplay, simply defend and let the enemy suicide, i like the active defense, so use a defensive skill when needed, and reply with a fast combo when the enemy have finished its combo.

i think they dont answer us because they are working a secret super duper guardian update (i really hope this XD)

But a little reply would be appreciated, even something like:

“hey guys, we are working on it, and when you see it, you kitten brinks! so kitten and play!”

edit:
lol I really like this kitten censure XD

Ret field its not useless, its really strong.
And the fact is that many of the simbol build users, are agree to strip away retaliation from SOW, to have a more fast simbol. (a fair exchange)

Ynna.8769:

Lumines.3916:

I really like retaliation, it’s a huge reason why bunker guardians are such a threat.

I actually think that’s part of the problem. Bunker-builds (of any profession) shouldn’t have much in terms of offensive power. They should be able to stay alive long, keep enemies of the point and very slowly whittle their health down by superior play.
Retaliation destroys that concept, because it gives a lot of offensive power to a defensive build.

Holy words.
Instead of a passive retaliation i prefer more active skill damage, so you can play like in a boxe fight (i have already use this example in another thread): block, block, dodge, take time, attack…

@TenzKu

have you ever think about the fact that some of the nerf on OUR class (like low health pool) was maybe caused exactly from the insane retal uptime?

@edelweiss
yeah maybe i express myself in a wrong term, my english its not so good
what a think is that a 100% retal uptime its against and action game concept, beceause when you become a MIRROR, you can simply heals yourself and dont move. xD

Well im glad to see other guardians player that think the same as me

Well, in these days i see many PPL talking about retaliation, but not one say what he think about this boon.
This is not a topic to talk of the SOW Nerf, i only want to know, what the other guardians player think.

So, for me retaliation its a boon for lazy Gameplay, that dont really fit (for now) the basic idea of an action MMORPG like Gw2, and dont really fit the idea that I have of a guardian.
From my little pvp experience, i see really a LOT of guardians that simply dont move, they never dodge, they use hammer, but they dont use a knock back or a warding ring, they simply stand up, spamming the retaliation rotation and they watch the enemy suicide.
I really dont think its a funny mechanincs and a really dont think this is active defence, when a think about what is a guardian defence, im referring to skills like Focus #5 or wall of reflection, skill that enemy can see, that can be avoided if i use them whitout thinking or if the enemy is smarter then me.

So, for me this boon, can be used really to frequently, and a think that this type of boon, must be deleted from simbols or from combo field in favor of a most active type of defence(well we have a lot of good active defences maybe some whit too high cd) and damage (where we lack, because we have retaliation), and maybe use retaliation only on some utility\elite skills (like renewed focus, to make that really an elite skills)

For what i see, and what a read on the net, too many PPL think that Guardian == retaliation spammer, and this really, make me sad.

Even if im a sostenitor of the: “Strip SOW from retaliation and give as a faster SOW”
I really like this thread, and i really like your idea.

+1

Reading your post, make me think that if they give to scepter a simbols, the longsword become the only MH weapon without a simbol. (it’s not a request or something else, its only a reflextion.)

i love this discussion, and i like your idea to modify zeal trait.
you are right when you say:

Guardian role and tactics change so fundamentally from weapon to weapon, so builds need to allow you some leeway in switching between weapons.

Before the pach, GS Was (at least for me) a good compromise for a mix of support and aggression on dungeon (like 60%support and 40% close combat dps) and it was really fun to play beacause you move costantly: keep the boss, then switch, go buff allyes, return…( for now i play a normal support build)
so keep in mind that there are not only damage and support builds, but even mid builds ^^

You mean the rune of earth ^^
well i have tryed the PVP rune of earth in the pvp area, and it work!

with save yourself 10 sec whitout the rune and 12 with the rune, so
or its a PVE problem, or you use the wrong skill to see the effectiness of the protection duration.

evilcherry.1327:

Ganzo.5079:

i agree with your argument, but Its question of proportions.

1 autoattack
1 fast cd attack with lower effect\lower control
8 slow cd with greather effect\greather control

will be surely more action oriented, whitout compromise the guardians nature.
For now only hammer and scepter use this proportion, and i know that is for the slowest autoattack.

Once in vanilla wow people made a macro to one-key a rotation of say 5 abilities.
We should not move backwards. Give me a cookie-cutter key, and then make everything else situational anyday.

Nor ARPGs base their characters on 10 keys. They are based on 1 or 2.

i simply dont understand this reply o.o

Mattius.2549:

The 2 points being debated are “omg i cant cope with 3 buttons being changed” or the loss of dps. Guardian is way more of a support profession than most in game, if you want to go full GS dps, go and play a warrior. GS has some really cool abilities on a guardian but that doesnt mean that it should be viable as a top dps build just because people would like it to be. GS is still great for AoE, you get might from “auto attack” for every target you hit with the 3rd strike, the 5 ability is great for gathering up mobs, the symbol is very powerful and should be matched with a sizable CD. Everytime i have saw a GS dps guardian in an instance they do not have the trait which gives might when you crit, that means either im constantly meeting the minority of players or in general the profession is being played wrong/badly.

So, this game have no trinity, but guardian its only for support? lol how funny.

“Support oriented” doesnt mean that a guardian player want to roll a full dps build (that i dont like anyway) have to roll warrior instead.
And GS simbol CAN BE TRAITED FOR SUPPORT BUILD TOO, but build that provide a mix of support and damage. (like some pug partyes require)

Why dont make retaliation a boon only for utility skills? so No 100% uptime and smart use of it.

maybe you are overstimating yourself quite a bit or you are understimate others too much.
But only because YOU dont use GS often, doesnt mean that other have chosen a wrong profession or they aren’t able to swap weaps.
i use a full set of weapons (one bag only for weapons, and except for hammer that i really dislike) But GS change in this mood, its really annoying.

So because you build have 100% ret uptime, this change no harm your playstile.

Well did you consider the fact that is retaliation the cancer of our profession?
And anyway, gw2 its not only a PVP game.

Man, if the intent was to nerf, all the GS simbols builds (because retaliation builds still exists with 100% ret uptime) well they could simply write it in the update log.

For now, and for my eyes, this change have no real explaination.

Simbol on Gs#3 are 7 simbols per minute… so maybe too much OP
sorry for the error ^^

another thing to say, its that leap of faith miss the target very often if you are not in close combat (we all know this bug) so in every case, no sinergy, and more miss hit.

another way to fix (or maybe a compromise) this its add a simbol on another of the low cd skill like GS #5 (5 simbol per minute whitout cd reduction traits instead of 3) or Gs #3 (6 simbols per minute without gs reductions traits)

Banewrath.5107:

If they ever sped up the scepters projectiles, expect another damage reduction to the weapon. They allready reduced it`s damage by roughly 1/3 then what it was since headstart. They did increase it`s range a little too. But for faster projectiles the attack speed and or damage would get slowed or reduced quite a bit.

i see your point, but a projectile that hit with low damage, maybe its better than a projectile that do more damage but mostly of times dont hit if you aren’t on close range :P

i agree with your argument, but Its question of proportions.

1 autoattack
1 fast cd attack with lower effect\lower control
8 slow cd with greather effect\greather control

will be surely more action oriented, whitout compromise the guardians nature.
For now only hammer and scepter use this proportion, and i know that is for the slowest autoattack.

Ynna.8769:

ImariKurumi.5761:

Strongly support making #2 a symbol. I don’t care about #1, just gimme the kitten symbol for #2 LOL…

Making #2 a Symbol would be great, but Smite isn’t really the functional problem of the Scepter. Changing #1 seems higher priority to me.

yup, #1 attack its to slow. my guardian on “retreat” can surpass its own scepter balls XD