Guild Wars 2

Rainshine.5493:

I don’t know how often anyone would benefit from the vigor on Smite. Do you stand in smite very often? The whole point is to deal damage from range. :B

Yes now its only a range damage skill, but if it become simbol, it can be something like the staff simbol, its a good source of speed, but with the fire sigil is awesome when you are assaulting a fortress on WvW…

The future scepter simbol can be used from distance to buff or heals your allies… better then nothing :P

Chii.2814:

symbols doesnt need to be boon+damage+field

Doesnt the mace symbol only heal?
Anyways if scepter #2 is to turn into a symbol it would be nice for it to deal damage, combo field light, and give vigor

Mace simbol give regeneration boon, ok it heals, but its still a boon ^^

Rainshine.5493:

Retaliation is not why guardians’ defense is strong … It does synergize very well with bunker type builds, but it’s not the cause of the strong defense.

is not a defense, but reflect damage + defense =win
When you have not damage reflection, you are only a meat shield if you cant control.

Rainshine.5493:

Have you ever considered that all this stuff you find lacking about the guardian is because your build isn’t very good? I’m not trying to be an kitten but does anybody else really think guardians’ defense needs to be buffed? Seriously?

Really no, i have some problem on pvp, but are related to something else…

now we all know that sooner or later, the thing that make us so strong, will be nerfed! (and i hope this come as sooner as possible) and its the retaliation uptime.
Im only proposing some kind of sostitution to the “reflecting damage” mechanism. Maybe devs have somehing else in mind for us, but some more idea, i don think its bad O_o.
If you look, the simbol proposal aim to give to guardians, a little control on Close range combat, but its distant to be considered OP… cripple on all simbols is OP, chill, is OP…a little slow movement, and a little reduction on incoming heals, is a punishment the people that walk on a simbol.

For area denial, enemy can still move, he dont take damage, im not proposing to activate push back and knock down effect on all our consecration\wall\ward, but simply, activate a collision like a physical object.
In the case of wall of reflection, the enemy collide with the wall, and instead of simply pass throgh it, he have to overcome the obstacle, so a traited wall of reflection, can be used as movement control, is it so bad?

Devs, delete all that useless boons by saveyourself, i only use it to take all my friends conditions.

I dont need to use vitality stat, or trait for it. Im plenty of life!

Polle.6908:

Regarding symbols

I personally don’t think all our weapons need combo fields. The guardian is one of the few classes that can pull a self combo so effortlessly. I feel that the sword is already in a good place in that it gives us an offensive one hand option to the mace. The reason why I don’t think it needs a symbol is that you already have an option to equip a focus or shield. Both these offhands grant defensive boons like block and protection. The shield also has an AoE knock back making it incredibly powerful than most give it credit for. The mace fills in the roll for more defence and is used for most defensive builds in both pvp and pve.
I think enemies should be punished more for being inside our symbols other than just damage and potential combo. I think cripple when inside maybe slightly overpowered in some cases like the mace for example. The cooldown on that thing is hell short and could cause some massive griefing. Maybe cripple the enemy if they are caught during the activation of the symbol may make more sense.

For sword i can agree, adding a simbol on Sword is only a way to improve a weapon that rely on 80% of its damage on autoattack… but can be ok.
The proposal of a new type of condition is exactly to not make a simbol too powerful, because the effect is decided by the cooldown of the simbol.
I have another idea about this, to improve our use of the condition damage\condition duration stats, but for now i prefer to keep them for me lol.

Aegis

I agree that the timing of Aegis is some what random and only serves as a compensation for guardian HP but apart from that I find Aegis as a mechanic quite fun to use as a virtue. I find having to time the use of Aegis for a massive attack much more fun, effective and satisfying than temporary vitality which imo wouldn’t do jack against a giant stomp, and other 2 shot mechanics in this game. That Aegis also shields you from any stuns/knockdowns/conditions so I feel that your suggestion actually feels like a nerf in all instances. :/

i dont think that my idea is a nerf for dungeon, but is a more rationate use of aegis, with a 20 sec cd, you can use aegis when you really need it, and not wait for a timer of 30 sec for a random use and then wait 90 seconds when you use it actively, on boss fight 90 seconds are a life.

Wall Of Reflection

I think this is ok the way it is. The pushback would make it almost identical to the staff skill and turning both into one makes it feel slightly overpowered considering how long this thing actually lasts.

I never mentioned a pushback effect, but only, the enemy cant pass.

Have you try to handle a warrior or a thief when you have only staff and scepter on hands?.. i do this mistake a couple of time, and maybe im a complete incompetent with theese 2 weapons, but without change my weapons on the way, when i run this combo, i simply can do nothing. Now on WvW i run always with the inventory open, so i can try to change weapons before being engaged

@ynna

ok, so for the simbol part, it was all related to the negation condition. now i was thinking on chill too, but its to powerfull beacause its a -66% on movement speed and skill regen, so i think something related to the simbols usage, less time you can use the simbol, and most powerful the simbol is, but hey, its only and idea :P

For sanctuary is my fault, i miss to write an important part :P

Sanctuary: Dome effect around the character, unable to move, invulnerable, 6 heal pulse during its duration . Before 2 seconds(you have only 2 sec to activate the side effect) of duration, you can sacrifice the dome, to trap the enemy inside the bouble, the enemy cannon move, regenerate skills, regenerate healts, but its invulnerable.

and all my ideas are related to the nerf that probably is incoming for the retaliation use. i miss to say this part too lol

Before start writing i state one thing. if you dont like the post, and you came here only to bash people, dont reply…
If you dont like something, and you have good ideas to improve our class, Whitout make guardian too OP, you are welcome here.

edit: Keep in mind that all these ideas are related to a probably nerf to our retaliation uptime.

edit edit: someone make me notice that my title is misleading so i ask to moderators to change it.
the discussion is not all about defenses, but about mechanics to improve the guardians control on melee range.

1) Simbols: i already say on some other topic, simbols must be a mechanic for all the weapons, and they must be fairly accessibile to us, because they can be a wonderful tool of ground control. so:
-Sword: flashing blade after the teleport, create a simbol in the ground that cause small damage to the enemy, no boons, combo field: light
-Scepter: Smithe Create a simbol on the ground that damage the enemy for a good amount of damage, no boons, combo field :light
new conditions exclusive for all simbols: NEGATION: punish the enemy that walk in your simbol: -% movement speed -% effective heal, this value are decided by the cooldown of the simbols(not traited), so for example, hammer simbol it can have a costant negation on an enemy, but its not strong as the GS\staff negation.
for this a thinked something like:
Movement speed: -3% x skill CD ( example: simbol of faith 3X8= 24% movement speed reduced)
Healing negation: -2% x skill CD

Aegis: i really dont like the way aegis work, its too random… I propose something Like virtue of courage grant Vitality(decided by level) during its duration, but you can activate it for an aegis every 15\20 sec (if you think that shelter can be used every 30 sec and block attacks for 2 seconds, its not so OP)

Consecrations:
Hallowed ground: Enemy can enter it, but cannon exit.
Sanctuary: Dome effect around the character, unable to move, invulnerable, 6 heal pulse during its duration . Before 2 seconds(you have only 2 sec to activate the side effect) of duration, you can sacrifice the dome, to trap the enemy inside the bouble, the enemy cannon move, regenerate skills, regenerate healts, but its invulnerable.
Wall of reflection:Enemy cant step through It.

Only lower CD is not a good thing, rethik what our Defense do, and make them more viable, is the way.

The perfect example is the 120 sec CD on sanctuary, cant really justify 2k heals and be unmovable. i try to use it on WvW, but i died like a noob, because some warrior simply hit trough it. and even if sanctuary give us immunity to damage, 120 sec for a skill that block you on the place, is a too long time.

Ynna.8769:

Ganzo.5079:

I want you guys to focus on one thing.
You think it is right that a Guardian must change his equipment\traits, to challenge different classes?

How is this any different from other professions. Necromancers need to spec condition damage to tackle Guardians, Warriors can’t use burst-specs against us. There are probably more examples, but the point is: You can’t be good against everything.

Why quote only the inizial part, and miss totally the rest? i already stated that i know this, BUT you really cant justify a paper\rock\scissor sistem, when for 5 years the promise was exactly to broke this!

if my spec\equipment is less effective against a particular enemy, is ok, but if im challenged by someone(so i CANT change traist and weapon on the way) and my weapons are totally useless against him, there is something wrong.

i give you somthing to think

Zeal:
binding jeopardy: can be a good trait, but our bind option are on: hammer, scepter, signet of wrath, i think only few poeple invest on this.
shattered aegis its strange trais, i like it, but we have only few aegis that i feel its useless, but maybe im wrong here.
greatsword power this and all the traits with +% damage on a single weapon, sounds like a joke.
zealous blade i think this trait is in the wrong place, it cant be a grand master trait.

Radiance:
inner fire why someone have to take a trait that give you fury if someone afflict you with burn? too casual to be useful.
searing flame 20 sec cd, isnt it too much for strip a single boon?

Valor:
streght in numbers +30 toughness? wut?

Honor
wirth of persistance+writh of exaltation: maybe its time to create a only one grandmaster trait with these 2.

Virtues:
unschated contender: useless for me, aegis dont last longer in a fight a i dont need a +10% damage when im not fighting o.o
vengefulretaliation is a problem, so this trait is the mother of most of the problems… its not a bad trait for sure… but i think that can we exchange this with something more useful.
permeating wrath i tryed this trait and i think is kinda useless, supreme justice is better.

I prefer call us “master of defense”, because we have all the cards to do it, but for now these cards are all on our deck.
We have wonderful mechanics as magical knights(dome, ward, simbols, spiritual weapons etc etc…) , but these mechanics are developed only partially

well, i can say that i heal and buff a lot on dungeons, my warrior mate is lost W\out my heals :P

as far as i can rembemer, sanctuary was an elite skill on some very old build of gw2, and renewed focus was an utility… so they exchange the skills without touch the cooldowns.

but most of our skill and traits, need a total rethinking… because if they are going to tweak the way how retaliation is work, we really risk to become something good only for heals and buffs.

I hope this is a joke…right? right?? RIGHT!?!?!?!?

Wizardauz.3761:

I compared the thieves defensive mechanic as well as the thieves easy of use using that defensive mechanic.

It terms of defense, they are actually more “well off” then us. Simply because they cant be seen or targeted and thus un-hittable (unless through luck/incompetent thief play.) I do believe any good thief shouldnt have trouble running/getting away while still being alive. Unfortunately it isnt the same for us, even tho we are “defensive” it only seeks to prolong the moment before we are attacked and downed because we’re always seen and in fact very visible and easy to notice.

im sorry but i just dont agree with you Seras. I think we do have really good utilities, but most of them are similar and or shared with other professions. Shouts, Boon Generation, Teleports. The thing is the ones we have that are unique dont really serve us all that well.

Sanctuary – Makes you immobile, standing in a radius no bigger then a common AoE. Enemies only have to plant them at your feet all around you and wait till the bubble comes down till you explode from standing on what is essentially a bomb. Easy target for elementalist AoE and or Necro AoE.

WoR – limits the area your allowed to move around. Cant increase distance to close range distance to melee distance because if u move past/through WoR then you’ve successfully wasted it. Rangers, Engis, and Warriors need only backstep to increase distance between us and wait for the wall to come down. They even get a 8 sec breather to regain their own cooldowns.

These moves are prolonging the time we take to die, not helping us avoid death. On top of that, each second we use to “protect” ourselves is also an advantage to the enemy. They either can move around, regen hp, and also get all the time you do recieve to regain CDs which are usually on lower CD anways.

Our defensive moves seem to instill a sense of suicide. We’ve got to be on the front line, absorbing the dmg, waiting for allies to dps down enemies, hoping we might get to stay alive till the end of it or have to retreat to reset and wait for 3min and 1min CDs to come back to be to provide that support. Even then if your trying to play that kind of guardian. Your usually put in a lot of risk, which usually means you are probably dying somewhat often (even a 3.3k armor 21khp Retaliation guardian cant stand up against focus fire on the front line) and then that only makes me think “great the unique aspects of my profession are causing me to consistently put myself on the line and risking repair bills/walk backs”

Im sorry but i truly believe that a “Defensive” Guardian is only inviting a stress onto himself coupled with gold sink through repairs because we cant deal the dmg we’d need while supporting. And lets face it in WvW sometimes even in the middle of your own zerg you can feel “Alone”. I’ve seen plenty of guardians left out in the cold in their bubbles while their allies use the opportunity to run and the enemies stay at the guardian to wait out the bubble.

i like you way of thinking, i beleve that all that can protect something, can constrict some other think, so if i can use a wall to defend myself, i can use it too for change the enemy move and take advantage, offensively or defensively. (depend player on playstyle)

ID like to see the unique mechanic of guardians used in more way

-Big blue bouble used like protective Dome, or Prison for an enemy
-Walls, to reflect damage, or negate movement in one direction
-Simbols used for buff allies , or incapacitate enemies
-More block, like a virtue of courage that grant some more hp (giust 500 more) but i can use it for an active aegis with a lower cooldown.(an not 90 sec cd, but 15\20 sec)

Seras.5702:

You compared Guarian utilities to Thief weapon mechanics. All professions, even Thieves rely on cooldowns for their utilities.

most of the thief stretegy attacks rely on autoattack, so they disengage\stealth skill can be used a lot of time.

Fildy, your point of view is right, but its not all, not all of us have the same playstile, but i think all guardians player want to use a class that can alternate defense, offense and support, with different %.
now looking the class, if you run with group is ok: you buff, you heal, you can handle your long cd (but a shout\stance warrion can do the same, and even better)

but if you are running alone (ok its a mmorpg and team play is a core mechaninc, but can happend):

Our wards, have a long CD and the enemy can pass trought it most of the time, so they are not a real costriction. (staff 5 and hammer 5 excluded)
We cant really control the enemy on melee range due to lack of slow effects, so he can engage us from distance easily (and when you have burn your wall of reflection, you are uncovered)we have some chain on 2 weapons, but they dont last too much or are easily avoidable like the hammer chain.
And our active block options rely on few skill: shelter, shield of wrath, renewed justice(is not a block, but they cant damage us anyway), protector strike… and VoC activation. (i dont remember if we have others block skill)

For the rotation thing, i dont use a rotation too, but is a bit obvious that if you run alone or with random groups (and the random group, tend to abbadon you too much times if you fall), you tend to use skill that you can rely on often, like shouts.

edit:
our greatest problem anyway are the weapons, we have not too much choice, and, they are too unbalanced, our weapons rely on direct damage but our class dont do much of it.
for my vision of guardian, i prefer that our weapons have their autoattack swing or death ray, but then the other 2\4 skills must have more simbols\ward\block\slow conditions (more control from our weapons) now the only 2 weapons that fit a bit my vision are hammer and mace, and theese are the 2 weapons im using recently.(hammer scepter of WvW, mace is not good for it)

what im saying from a lot of time, is that guardian for now is unbalanced, new traits cant help us too much. i dont know why our class has become the Gw2 version of the WOW holy paladin: heal heal heal, retaliation retaliation retaliation.
What i see after 500+ hours of gameplay, is that we need a good rework, because we are sure strong, but too much unbalanced.

now we need something like:

Ground control with the use of walls and dome (they must be not surmountable by enemyes) simbols (with some slow effect for the enemy that walk on it)

Active block (aegis is too random, most of the time is burned by an autoattack, and when you use it as active defense with WOJ, you have a too long CD to wait (we have renewed focus too, but this mean that we are forced to take only this elite, and after the second aegis block, we have 2 long cd to wait)

i agree with OP, our class have lost his mean, we arent real defenders(not for an action game concept), we dont do much damage (o maybe i have to say that some classes do too much damage), ok we heal a lot anche we can “reflect” damage, but What i see now, is a class like the WOW holy paladin, tough for sure, but unbalanced as hell.

I want you guys focus on one thing.
you think is right that a guadian must change his equiment\traits, to challeange different classes? now i now that one spec can be weaker than another to conditions or some kind of damage, but i thing that our class is too much unbalanced, other classes can play (and before someone say something i know that all the other classes need fix and adjustment) they spec they want to play, and be quite sure to win a fight if they play well, and im sorry to say that with guardian this thing is not true.

lemme say this… now our is a defensive class and its ok if we cant do 10k with a single skill damage but this doesnt mean that we have to be forced to use predefinite assets of weapons and skills to be quite effective.
be a defensive class in an action game like gw2, dont mean that we have to not move, and wait tha retaliation kill someone, but that we can control the damage output of our enemy, by block, by walls and domes(that for me they MUST BE impassable by an enemy) , by simbols, make them Waste skills, and if we are forced to play only on melee range, slow their movement.
This is what a call DEFENCE.

CMF.5461:

I have been testing this myself and if we are getting any frame skips, we are getting them in such an insignificant decrease of animation time that it is negligible as far as damage output. Beyond that, “dps” in this game is not like in other games where you are trying to beat an enrage timer or kill something before your group runs out of mana for healing so minor increases in dps in the terms of fractions of a benifit are not “worth it” (to me).

What this DOES do is allow you to sneak in a Selfless Daring roll mid combat without significantly reducing or stopping your auto attack chain with the hammer. I.E. “more” healing done without skipping a beat. Also this allows me to “roll in place” so I can stay centered on the combat area I want to be in versus go flying all the way the heck out to left field then having to run my clunky self back to combat.

Personally I have had this happen before I realized what it was and it annoyed me. Because I was in an auto attack chain, i see a big attack incoming and I dodge…but since the dodge animation is cut short I don’t end up dodging the big ugly fist coming down on my face and I get downed like a dummy. Now that I know what is happening I at least understand it and can “attempt” to anticipate big attacks and try to not have them line up with auto swing #2 if using the hammer.

Cost/benefit of this move are highly situational.

Maybe a little faster output on the 3rd hammer swing, and if it reduces a 62 frame animation into a 49 frame animation (a loss of 13 frames) we still end up with an auto attack chain that is approximately 50 frames long…. Is this going to make us unstoppable beasts in pvp/pve? No, we didn’t make it as if we are hasted from mesmers or something. Will this make an extremely close fight end possibly in your favor? Fractions of a second could buy you the win and if this helped then cool

Do I think this is a glitch/bug/exploit? Yes but the question is do they care, and at this rate it seems so minor and non game changing that it doesn’t matter to them. Many people bring up fighting game examples where you say yourself that it was an unintended effect (read glitch) that players exploited to gain an advantage. The only difference is those game developers liked it and we are unsure of how these game developers view this topic.

Although I believe that with the lack of a GM response that this is low on the totem pole and if it really was a hot topic that was punishable by some degree they would have put this fire out a few days ago. By the silence they pretty much say that if this is increasing our combat ability by any degree it is not enough to matter to them as game developers.

we have to take in mind another thing, that this DPS gain is true only if continue to spamm only the autoattack chain, but in a real situation, you dont use only that. that 13 fps gain, is lost when you move, or when you use another skill.
For what i see, the only real gain we have to use this trick, is not in terms of damage, but that the hammer simbol is unpredictable to the enemy.

Ninjah.6298:

chtiyonki.6284:

If I would complaint against Thiefs it will because they are just fleeing anytime they lost (QQ stealth).

That’s their mechanic and complaining about it is the same as them QQ’ing about us healing.

with a little, tiny… HUGE difference!
a guardian cant handle an enemy that flee all the time, no control conditions and mid\log cd on control skills, you can stop for few seconds, but you cant kill em in that space of time(most of enemys have 20k+ life, and thief have a disangage skill on every weapon) but an enemy can still damage us when we are healing.
im not complaining because a thief can stealth and go away, but i complain the fact that i can do nothing to stop them… and you know, there are few methods to “counter” healing: Big damage hits and poisons ^^

edit:
about healing, a thief with a double sigil of blood and lifesteal food, can completely heal his life with some pistolwhip, or heavy skill spamming ^^

Out of curiosity, am I the only one that really likes Renewed Focus then?
Of course it could be that I paired it with Superior Runes of Lyssa for a short CD supercharged elite skill.
For those that are wondering,
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rune_of_Lyssa

already tryed on my thief with traited basilisk venom xD
its funny lol SYS on 36 sec cd

Yeah, after see the discussion about the lack of ranged weapon, i reply here.
Its true, we lack of controls, to force the opponent to stay on our attack range, and even if we have something to bind or reach di enemy, theese thing cannot fulfill at best role of controlling the enemy…
The name of our class is guardian, so i think is natural For us to control our ground(simbols can be a perfect trademark of this phylosophy) , and force the enemy to stay on melee range. Things like wall of reflection, are good protection, but are avoidable, have a long CD and the enemy can simply walk throug it and continue to shot.
_________________________________________________________________
I dont know if random thing like glacial earth can be good for our class, i made a a thread about, but i change my mind when the others player make me notice the huge luck dependance of my idea.
I agree if devs have decide that Guardian are a melee only class , i love melee combat, but we need some kind of controls on our weapons, all the other classes are plenty of mechanincs for control others and disengage from combat (with fast CD) so why guardians have only some option? and a lot of our option have a cd >30sec?
I trade all my retaliation for some kind of more active mechanic/control

Rainshine.5493:

However, complaining that you lack enough CC is patently false. The tools are ample for sticking with all but the squirreliest targets, and if we’re talking WvW, sending them running is still a win.

WHAT? and how is supposed to have badge if you let people run? the winner in this case is the one that flee, because he dont have to pay the repair cost! is you are a simple melee class, when you are in 1v1 if you cant control\slow the enemy for sufficent time and keep him in you range attack, you lose, or max its a draw because the enemy flee, and you are an elementalist so i bet you know well this thing.

Now, try to force and enemy in you range with leap of fait, or flashing blade, its simply continue to run lol. im not saying that we dont have CC, but some weapons, need some better of theese! for now the only good weapons that can fulfill this job are scepter(but need that kittening fast ball) and hammer, the GS pull is not good as you think, and it have a long CD.

For the blind question i have to say that is kinda useless have this condition only on 2 gap closing skill (and on traited VOJ) is not effective as for engineer or thief, is a “good” defensive mechaning when you are already on melee range, not when you are chatching someone.

Edited the first post.

i remade my previuos idea with this, and i cant modify the first post.
So, comment only this ^^

Keep in mind that this effect are applied only if you pick the related trait.
Greatsword Power: +5% damage, leap of faith have cripple (2 sec) with the other effects
Mace of justice: +5% damage , protector strike stun the enemy that trigger the effect
Focus Mastery: -20% recharge , shield of wrath can block 4 attacks instead of 3
Honorable Shield -20% recharge +90 toughness, the healing effect of shield of absortion is doubled.
radiant fire -15% recharge , zealot fire daze the target if hit (3 sec)
powerful blades +5% damage :zealot defence and brilliance, immobilize for 2 sec if they hit something.

Renewed focus is fine i really love it.
For the tome, they have really good effects, but i want to use my utilities when i use them, thats the only change they really need.

Ynna.8769:

How about something like:
Glacial Force: Using the #3 of your Hammer and Mace causes Chill.
It removes the randomness, and you can still give it an internal cooldown if needed and the same template can be used for other weapons.

lol whe had the same idea XD

ok i was wondering about my first post in this thread, and yeah its too luck dependant so in my work breaktime i was thinking to something like this:

Keep in mind that this effect are applied only if you pick the related trait.
Greatsword Power: +5% damage, leap of faith have cripple (2 sec) with the other effects
Mace of justice: +5% damage , protector strike stun the enemy that trigger the effect
Focus Mastery: -20% recharge , shield of wrath can block 4 attacks instead of 3
Honorable Shield -20% recharge +90 toughness, the healing effect of shield of absortion is doubled.
radiant fire -15% recharge , zealot fire daze the target if hit (3 sec)
powerful blades +5% damage :zealot defence and brilliance, immobilize for 2 sec if they hit something.

i have no ideas about staff and trident :\

ok guys, i accept your opinions, because i had this idea this morning and i have not think on it too much time, but, instead simply say: no…no…NO, why dont you be propositive? maybe some of you can have some better idea then mine. and im happy to discuss with it.
We all know that +5% damage on a single weapon is is the worst thing we can take.
and theese are not the only traits semi-useless. but things like.

Unscathed Contender or Strength in Numbers are kinda useless too.

Ok finally i can edit, i decided to delete completely the previuos idea because it was too luck dependant.

Keep in mind that this effect are applied only if you pick the related trait.

Greatsword Power: +5% damage, leap of faith have cripple (2 sec) with the other effects
Mace of justice: +5% damage , protector strike stun the enemy that trigger the effect
Focus Mastery: -20% recharge , shield of wrath can block 4 attacks instead of 3
Honorable Shield -20% recharge +90 toughness, the healing effect of shield of absortion is doubled.
radiant fire -15% recharge , zealot fire daze the target if hit (3 sec)
powerful blades +5% damage :zealot defence and brilliance, immobilize for 2 sec if they hit something.

i have no ideas about staff and trident :\

Let’s recap gap closers/CCs that let you catch up to people.
Mighty Blow: 5 sec good, the low range is capped by the low recharge and a good AOE damage
Flashing Blade: 10 sec only reach, no damage improved, no real control
Leap of Faith: 15 sec look above
Zealot’s Embrace: 15 sec good, even if avoidable by side stepping (no dodge needed)
Chains of Light: 20 sec good, but the scepter need a little rework in any case
Binding Blade: 30 sec not a real pull, but its a good interruction with burning dot
Ring of Warding: 40 sec slow and bugged, for pvp work only with judge intervention combo
Line of Warding: 40 sec slow and bugged, cast time is to long for use it as CC… very good on zergs
Judge’s Intervention: 45 sec the only good close gap skill we have, nothing to say
Hammer of Wisdom: 45 sec can be good,but we cant control the knock back effect, sometime it push away an enemy when im hitting it, so its kinda, mah

yeah or traits need a good revision, but i open this topic to discuss the weapons mechanic.
So please open another thread to discuss about traits.

Rainshine.5493:

Guardians have LOTS of gap closers/pulls and decent access to swiftness to run people down. 1h sword has one on a 10-second cooldown (that also blinds!) for pete’s sake. Hammer has a small gap closer, a knockdown, and an immobilize, plus a ring that can either keep people out or in. Staff has swiftness + a wall to plop in front of a retreating person. Greatsword has a leap and a pull. Scepter has a ranged immobilize.

now look what you have write… the only right thing is about the hammer but:

leap + blind, explain HOW a reverted aegis like blind, can help me to mantain the target on my attack range. is good as defence if i have a target that is already attacking me, but if im running behind someone, and i use flashing blade, WHO care if the target is blinded, he can run at the same speed! (and the same thing is for leap of faith!) if the effect is leap + blind + chill (2 or 3 sec), i can really have nothing to say, but only leap + blind is a joke.

GS pull is good, but its too random and it dont always pull foes… most of the time it simply interrupt.

hammer the only good weapon we can use for now… but lemme say to you that hammer #4 is not a knockdown but a KNOCKBACK, is good if you have a cliff right near, or to save someone, but is slow, and it enlarge the gap between you and your enemy.

scepterwe have a chain every 20 sec, and we have to lose time to cathc the target, because autoattack with scepter when you are not in close combat, is a huge loss of damage, chain and switch weapon is better, but you cant have a weapons, for only a skills that you can use every 20 sec… autoattack need a little speed up.

about the staff swiftnees, all classes have access to a lot of swiftnees, when im using my warrior a have permanent swit thanks to horn+signet, with my thief i have the signet. so all classe have access to this boon, but all classes have a good rooster of ranged attacks, they can use when they are running. But not guardians, so what im say is:
less ranged attack = more stationary control to compensante.
Or simply give to guardian more ranged attacks too. its not so difficult to undestand.

and what we are talking about, are weapons, so we cant use all this things in the same fight.

Ynna.8769:

Active.1538:

And if you don’t like it, maybe this is not the class for you?

Rubbish. I love the Guardian and pretty much every aspect of it (except for Spirit Weapons). It’s my favorite archetype of things you can pick in the game. But we do lack range and it’s an issue in some situations.

+1
is not a problem about damage, but its most a problem to keep the class in ranged\active combat. if an enemy flee, you have to run behind him, if you had no gap closer, you are screwed.
From my play vision, is ok if guardian have no ranged options(i love close combat classes), but we need something to force the opponent to stay in our action range (pull skills like GS#5, slow down conditions etc etc.)

Tinni.4351:

I mean, Guardians aren’t supposed to stay at range.

So if an enemy flee from us? we have not so much close gap skills, and they are pretty stupid imho, the only really usefull is judge intervention.
We dont have conditions that can slow down enemyes, so we cant keep an enemy on close combat for much time.

yes we are not a ranged class for sure, but now the only useful weapon we have against ranged foes, is that stupi.d and OP boon called retaliation. (and wall of reflection, but it cant be used always and its easily avoidable).

for me there are 2 ways to achieve to lack of ranged effect.

1) modify scepter and staff with some faster projectle (scepter #1 and staff #2)
or
2)give to our gap closer and ranged attacks some type of slowdown effect (like cripple or chill)

i prefer the solution number 2 because guardian can mantain their distinctive trait, they can go always FACE TO FACE against the enemy, but is a pure matter of taste ^^.

Personally i couldnt care less, this issue people seem to have, even though misdirected and uninformed, is with the hammer, it can be used with all weapons. and as such any future adjustment has to be done to the dodge, not the hammer.

agree, hammer is not the problems here, but the dodge animation, if there is something to modify is the animation, not the hammer and not the single autoattack, because it can be used with all classes, and all the skills.

Monki.5012:

Ok heres my whish for weaponchanges:

Shield:
reduce shield 4 CD by at least 10 (now 20) seconds to make it fun to use.
switch Shield 5 with Focus 5 (Shield of wrath)

rember that is off hand weapon, 20\25 seconds are good for a #4 skill, it only need to be buffed a bit, on damage or on side effect.

Sword:
Sword 3 should pierce enemies and hits another mob behind the first

isnt it too strong? sword autoattack is fine, it can deal a good numer of critical hit (i have a major sigil of fire on my old sword, and its a festival of flame when i use it xD)

Traits:
The Torch – %CD Trait should switch position with focus -%Cd Trait. Imo torch fits the zeal line more while focus fits into radiance.

agree

Mace:
Is fine as it is but remove the casttime for the symbol. unnecessary slowdown of gameplay imo.
Smybol could be slightly larger.

faster, yes, is an 8 sec avoidable skill… cast time not so good here…even if is not properly an attack but more a support skill.
larger absolutely no, you can trait for larger simbols

Hammer:
Remove casttime of Hammer autoattack
Instead of knockback hammer4 should be a knockdown.

i agree on a little speedup of the autoattack animation, but not removed completely. hammer simbol is the best simbol we have now, it must have some weakness.

and for hammer #4 i have to say that is really funny knock back people from cliff on WvW, so its ok xD

Cant edit.

Now, i know that there was a retaliation issue with the old cd, but after looking this numbers now i see a thing:
Devs have reduced the Sow retaliation uptime by 1\2 , but the sow uptime via leap, its the same! and its even faster if there is another guardian whit you, or if you use another simbol to trigger the effect(mace? staff?)
So the only way to fix the retal issue is: delete retaliation from SOW, and change the combo field with some other boon: vigor? regeneration? swiftnees?

dont think this division of “Main weapons” and “burst weapons” is a smart thing for tis game, it force you to chose predefined combinations of weapons.
Every weapon must have a decent self sustained combo , (not only smash #1, but 1 o 2 additional low cd attack or defence, where low is less then 8\10 seconds ) and then have some occasional skill with high cd(more then 15\20 sec).

now look the cd of all the guardian weapons:
————————————————————————————————————————————————-
Hammer
simbol on 3 autoattack (3 sec)\5\15\25\40, self combo in 1 and 2, occasional 3 for additional burn damage and control, 4 and 5, pure CC, maybe too slow to use, but the rest is fine. with a really good sinergy with a LOT of builds.
——————————————————————————————————————————————————
Mace+focus

autoattack 2 sec\8\15 + 25\45 : self sustained combo on autoattack + simbol, defence on 3 ( i already said that this skill need a bit low CD like 12 sec). focus is all about decence. Bit slow CD on mace + shield but same use.

Mace + torch

2/8/15+ 15/15
2/8/15+ 22/15(with zealot fire)

pretty costant damage and defence, self sustained combo with all the skills.
———————————————————————————————————————————————————————————-
Sword + torch
1.5/10/15 + 15/15
1.5/10/15 + 22/15(with zealot fire)

pretty strange combination, but its not spammable.
The combo here is autoattack, ZD, cleansing flame, occasionaly zealot fire for a ranged attack), maybe 2 o 3 seconds less on ZD, can be good.
Flashing blade is a closegap\defensive skill, so its not wise to spam it.
————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————
Scepter + torch

0.25(not sure)\6\20 + 15\15
0.25\6\20 + 22\15

fast and kitten lethal at close range even only with autoattack + smithe, cleasing flame add variety on a really fast self combo.
———————————————————————————————————————————————————————————-
staff
0.5\3\15\20\40
0.5\12\15\20\40 (#2 orb detonation)

ok the orb is i bit bugged, but is still usable with good damage effect. Now we cant use the orb every 3 sec, but its pretty fast to recharge in any case.
————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————
GS

1.5\10\15\20\30

no real self combo, maybe (autoattack + WW). Leap of faith follow the same rule of flashing blade, is not wise to spam this skill all the time, because is a great(?) gap closer\defensive skill and add not incresing damage. and even if we want to use the combo ligh field+leap combo, we need to wait the refresh of the simbol, so after the first rotation, Cd become something like this:

1.5\10\20\20\30
or
1.5\20\15\20\30 (if you need to use light field + whirl)

or

1.5\20\20\20\30 (if you need to use both, but is kinda stupid imho)

now im not complaing about damage, because i know its good, but with theese cooldown, this weapon is pretty boring to use as main weapon.

now looking the old CD

1.5\10\10\20\30

1.5\10\10\20\30 (light field +whirl)

1.5\10\10\20\30 (light field + leap)

1.5\10\10\20\30 (both)

Now looking this numers, the old layout was fun to play, due to is 2 fast cd skill, a 20 sec gap closer\defence, and a 30 sec damage\CC.
And once more, IM NOT TALKING ABOUT DAMAGE!

Ynna.8769:

The problem with the Greatsword is that all of its skills come together in high burst. This leaves you with a lot of down-time, since you’re most effective using all your skills close together, and because of the high-ish cooldown of the Symbol, it’s not really worth preserving your combo-finishers for it.

The Greatsword is a powerful weapon on its own. It’s just very boring, because you’re auto-attacking for a long time. The auto-attack is actually pretty good, so if you’re in a situation where you just need to do damage, you don’t actually need to weapon-swap.

Yes but paired with the others weapons, GS autoattack is not a thing you want to use for a long time, is kinda logic swap after burn all the skill.
before the simbol change, you had a costant skill recycle, so the use of the weapon wasnt boring (maybe static, because you attack on the simbol, but not boring), and you had more possibility of swap, because with 2 skills with mid\low CD, you can change from a weapon to GS, and be sure to have something to use (in case of fast swap tactics)

It’s begining to sound like you just want 1 weapon for ~every~ situation. That’s like saying you have a set of Utilities and never want to have to swap them out.

really no, maybe i espress myself in a wrong term, But smply with all the other weapons, you can chose the way to play it. for example, now im using hammer, with mace ad secondary weapon, i use hammer for most of the time, but for long fight i swap to mace for defend myself. Now with gs this is not possible, because as main weapon it suck.
And let me express, swap weapon only because you burn all the cd on the weapon is kinda lame. I love swapping because of the stretegy you can act, but be forced to swap(to avoid long autoattack phase), reduce the sistem overall strategy.

Ynna.8769:

Farzo.8410:

The shield #5 skill has great concept, really cool, but it doesn’t really work that well in this current form.
Perhaps it could be remade into something in line of a shield throw that jumps between 3 – 5 targets and dazes them, or that it jumps between allies adding a small reg-heal.

How does the #5 doesn’t work well? It works exactly as described and it’s pretty powerful. It’s a big AoE knockback+protection from projectiles+a Light combo field+a pretty decent heal.

Shield #5 for me is a mistery, the knock back effect is a good source of control , and for PVP can be good (even if with and high CD for what he do) but for dungeon runs shield is pretty useless.

shield #4 hit the target in front of you, and if you play a mace\shield guardian, most of the times, the party is right behind you.
Shield #5 is useless, because boss are immune to controls, and the heal it provide is worthless.

Draeka.5941:

I’ve had plenty of success using a staff in Orr, tbh. I use it and the hammer to tag mobs a’plenty. Much more reliable AoEs than the GS.

i have to quote this because its absolutely true.
For Orr event farming i use only the staff, and i dropp really a LOT.