Guild Wars 2

@amins
lol so the best way to use an GS is use it as second weapon for an hammer? and if someone wish to play GS and staff for example? really People cant say that GS is ok only because they use it with a weapon with a good average damage.
Now gs is a Huge concentration of burst damage, and nothing else, 3 seconds of use, and then you have to autoattack or swap weapon, and i dont think the swap sistem is made only for change weapon when you burn all the CD.
The old GS layout was fine, because you was not forced to swap instatly you weap thanks to 2 skills with low\medium CD (and SOW has the greatest trait sinergy in all the GS skills)
The only other guardian weapon with this problem is Longsword, but if you use Longsword + torch this problem dissapear because you have a costant skills recycle ^^

@guanglay
Im not an hammer lover, but im using it in theese days, and i have nothing to say, is slow but kittening good.

Edited some weapon on the first post.

I have a suggestion too.
when i was doing the clock tower, one of the beatiful things was challenge whit the other players (the one who collect the major number of bag in a limited number of runs, or the one who finish the tower faster etc etc…)
So why dont create some type of Jumping PVP, like and huge area with a lot of platforms, where players can challenge to collect i defined number of flags, that spawn in random place. The winner of the game is the one who collect the flag in less time.
This can be an idea for the next holiday event

I want to say only one thing. If this is considered as an exploit, it must be fixed, but in the correct way, if its a problem of the animation sistem, well devs must look in it.

Fix this kind of problem whit an interruction on the autoattack chain when dodge is the dumbest thing i have read in this forum.
Hammer autoattack is slow, and sometime you have to avoid some great attack in order to place your simbol, and this thing will not only “kill” the hammer autoattack, but all the chained Skills.

@edelweiss i agree on 80% of wat you say, but:

Longsword ZD is a good source of damage, but is too avoidable, look for example 100blades, it can discharge a LOT of damage, with a 180° radius, so in that case, even if a player try to avoid the move, he take good damage(break a stun is more difficult then simply roll away after blind :P). i dont think that ZD need more damage, but need something to make it a reliable move to use.

greatswordi agree on the Leap+light combo field, too much retaliation on this class.
But i dont think is fine as weapon, as i said before, damage is really good, but that fast style that we had before, is broken (or gone). now hammer is faster, and can cover field better (MB jump) for all the time you use it.

Zeal Line agree on 100%… too messy this line.
———————————————————————————————————————————————————————————
@akamon

shield yeah maybe i have exagerated a bit :P, edelweiss solution is surely better then mine

scepter i dont think it can be OP as simbol, because if this skill become a simbol, it need a total rework on damage output, so smithe become a normal simbol with 6 sec cd, but it can be good even with 8 sec cd (like mace simbol)
————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————

edit to first post: added acquatic weapons.

GZ brutaly for the stiky

edited Hammer and shield on the first post.

im on the opposite situation, i do this “puzzle” a lot of times to farm the bags.
Yeah you need practics, but ppl really cant complain for this.
you cant pretend to do things like this in the first 10 minutes, you have to study the route and the timing for jumps, even if it means try the same jump ALONE a lot of times, when you have achieved this 2 things, you can do the tower easily even with 20 charrs on the screen.

I have to agree too.
I prefer most variety and balance on the 8 existing classes instead of new and statics classes.

People are upset because they’re passionate about the game (which is awesome) and they want it to live up to its full potential.
I don’t take negative posts personally. Rather, I try to put myself in their shoes, listen to what they’re really trying to say (once you get past the rage), and try to find a way to fix the cited issues, if I think they’re good for the game.

cant quote properly.
Anyway, i like your way of thinking, but sometimes the lack of reply can really exasperate the players. Even something stupid like:

“we are working on it”

can really help to chill out some situations.

Im a fellow guardian and in the last month i see any kind of thing in our section of the forum, and the lack of response made all more dramatic; and i have to admit that i have exagerate too sometime.

but keep in mind that if we are here to discuss, is because we really have faith on this game ^^.

Ynna.8769:

Good points.
I don’t think Zeaot’s Defense needs to be usable on the move, but I certainly won’t complain if it was.

On Pve ZD is not a real problem, mob dont flee very often, but i was wondering about PVP in this Case.
THe only effective way to use ZD is blink to the target and then discharde ZD, but even in this case the enemy can dodge and go away, if you want to catch the enemy you have to interrupt the skill (so 2 Skills “wasted”)
Even if you use it with the only purpose to block ranged attacks, you cant move, so in fact the enemy can take advantage from the use of ZD.
But if you can move, this skill can become really strong (and 15 sec CD are fine) because you can use it when you are running behind someone and you have no teleport avaible. or you can close the gap from someone that is attacking you from distance without take damage.

Also: Don’t touch my Shield

LOL :P

Ocelot.3148:

@Ganzo
Maybe the GS mechanic has been nerfed for PvE player but..i do PvE as much i do PvP and I have no real issues using GS neither swapping weapon, neither with synergy.
But maybe is only a my personal opinion. Waiting for other player answering to your question.
You should try a Mesmer on PvE then, they have simply no reason there except Time Warp skill.

LOL i have a Guardian, a thief, a warrior and a mesmer too. But im not so skilled with mesmers so i cant talk :P
Anyway i dont know wich build you are running, but after the change i have changed my build for Dungeon runs and i have changed my 2H weap from GS to Staff, to mantain a certain efficiency.

Anyway we are going a little OT ^^

As pvp/pve/wvw/tpvp player u can’t change a mechanic from a weapon based only a PvE prospective since it will unbalance/nerf/boost others playstile like PvP/WvW player.

And well LOL, im a weapon swapper from the beginnig, but i prefer swap weapons because a need to use a skill on the other weapon, not because im out of skills in the current one.
Yeah Most of gs damage come from autoattack, so what about the sinergies? GS need some change, before the 7\10 its was Maybe OP in PVP, and quite good in Pve, now its good on PVP but its suck for Pve, Not for damage, but from mechanics.

So, your quote is real, but is real the opposite TOO!

@Ocelot
I see the class from a Pve perspective( i do Pve on 90% of my playtime), so our vision is little different i think (like on the GS case). But its good to talk about it ^^

Fabsm.5897:

And… sticky sticky sticky!

not much to say lol

I’m writing this topic only to focus on what our weapons need to have the most enjoyable gameplay experience.

So let’s start.

Hammer: Hammer is our best weapon now(sorrowfully i have to admit it ^^), but
Need a a bit faster attack chain.
Need to fix the 5 skill.

Longsword: A good and fast weapon, autoattack deal a lot of crits, But ZD is too stationary, you miss the target too many times. So, Why cant we use ZD on the move?

Scepter: Our Ranged Weapon, but in facts, is our massive damage melee weapon.
-So maybe, we need fast projectile with less damage, or add a chained autoattack with a mix of slow and faster orbs (thanks to edelweiss)
-we need a simbol on this weapons, there is no sense to have the 5% damage on scelpter in the zeal line, without a simbol mechanic on the weapon.

GS: Gs damage is Really good, but we need a rework on the whole weapon mechaninc… really its not funny like before…
Now use the GS = to spam all skills, switch to another weapon and wait 30 sec for the refresh of all the skills then switch and Re-do, i keep my eyes on the simbol, it really dont need damage, and it dont need retaliation too, our simbol need only a faster CD.

Mace: I really love mace, for me is The guardian weapons Now (not strong as the hammer, but is cooler :P).Anyway to compensate the lack of gap closing skill, or CC:
-Less casting time for the simbol (8 sec cd is fine, its only slow to cast :P)
- -2 or -3 sec on protector strike.

Staff: i love this weapons for dungeon runs, the simbol is strong and its ground target, so 15 sec CD are fine, orb of light is really good (i dont understand why so many PPL dislike this skill)
Only one thing dont work on Staff, the line of warding, PLEASE FIX THIS SKILL

Torch: Good and fast damage, no modification needed.

Focus: My main off hand for all the 1H weapon… not much to say, its kittening good.

Shield: i use it sometime, but i dont really like how it work:
-Shield 4 transform the protection cone in a 360° Aoe protection, or give a better CD or give us a trait that can add aegis on skill use (Thanks to edelweiss)

-Shield 5 can be good, but its really too stationary, you have to stand still but you continue to receive Melee damage after the Push away effect. Let us move during the dome effect (no push away effect during the move) or give to the chained heal a better heal effect, or some type of boon like regeneration.

Acquatic weapons our acquatic weapons arent so bad, the they have no sinergy with builds.
Our aquatic combat are pretty casual, so give to our weapons some effect that can go in combo with our trait ^^
Our Acquatic weapons have no simbols and give no buffs (exeception for retaliation on trident 4), they give us a lot of burn offects (in the water? mmm) and blind…

@Brutaly
After i have see your video, i have taken my rare hammer from the bank, and i have test it in the mad king labirint.
Well now even if i continue to dislike hammer (im GS lover inside ^^) i can say that is funny, fast and powerful as hell! The slow hammer is a myth, when you know how to play it, it become an kitten killer, more fast then GS, and well, This leaves me with a bitter taste.

@Ganzo
Nice work, u can quote me to write excactly that what I wrote.

lol you are right, i have really made a mess with the first thing.
xD my bad ._.

Only in long PvE Boss fights and for that u always have the chance to switch weaponset, use all skills on the other weaponset and switch back.
Apart from this, the game is made for this, to change weaponsets, so no there is no autoattack phase on GS.
Only for those ppl who dont know, that there is a second weaponset u can use.

even if you can weaponsswitch (and i switch a LOT, even before the 10/7 patch) there is a problem with the too long CD of GS…
yes you are right when you say that this thing is a PVE problem, because that patch have caused EXACTLY a pve problem. Anyway the problem is when you switch from a weapon to GS, and you have at least 3 skill on CD, the only skill usable always after a switch is WW, and maybe you have 2 sec on leap of faith, and in that case you have the belowed autoattack phase, you are tied waiting the simbol after WW (and you cant spam LOF, because is more a defensive skill when in close combat)

Thorwyn.8469:

@Drgori-5724
retaliation with the hammer symbol?
It gives u protection. U only get ae retaliation if u use #2 as blast finisher on the symbol.

Simbol of protection=light field
Light field + mighty blow= AOE retaliation

@topic
U cant compare those weapons. GS is more dmg and hammer cc.
Both r nice and depending on the situation, one is better than the other.

Its not truth, hammer can do a really good damage not higher than gs for sure, but pretty high and no cd dependant.
Gs can do a lot of damage, but only when you use all your skills, then you have an autoattack phase and you damage drop down, below the hammer ^^

Your test is a little odd, you are not testing the raw damage of a weapon, but different builds with different weapons. (and different builds means different stats, different output values)…
and another thing, why test GS and staff using 2h mastery, and hammer without it? ok using the classic 1112 rotation, you see this trait only in a -1 sec MB cooldown, but it help to have a MB every rotation whitout lose much time.

Besides number (that are kittening right) we need to consider that:

the damage rotation of the hammer is composed by 2 skill (autoattack and MB) with this two skill it have its nearly maximum damage, wich is not high than gs, but its near to the gs damage, you have a 5 second of damage rotation, and you have 3 control skill left.
For GS to rech its maximum damage pontetial, you must use all the cd of the sword in a single time, and the damage you have surely HIGH, but NOT so high, and then you have 8 sec for the first damage skill (WW). Add some crit on GS help a little in the autoattack moment, but crit chance, work better for the hammer rotation.

The reason why i didnt even consider mace as an option is that the third skill of the mace isnt reliable at all as a source of dps.

little sidenote. for me mace is fine, yeah its slow, but for dungeon is a real kitten saver. The only thing that dont work so well, is that after the change to Mace3, the skill sometimes dont proc when you have an ally into your shield.

Nurvus.2891:

Because if developers ever become ruled by player demands, a game is destroyed.
This happens because like 9 out of 10 players want things without considering the long term side-effects and mentality changes.

It’s like the players asking for Recount meters, Inspection, etc.
Most of them may have the purest intentions, but they overlook the long term problems their idea causes.

For this i express myself in wrong term, but my english is really bad, but look this thread, and look the other thread like this one on this section of the forum.

If a decision made by devs is fine, you can see 2 types players:

-Players that know if a particular skill is unbalanced and agree with devs even if the change hurt their gameplay.
-players that want the iGOD skill unchanged

one example of this is the recent save yourself nerf.

In the GS case we have:

-angry GS lovers that see their playstile changed for a boon, and they want a total rollback
-players that havent their playstile changed, so for them this change hurt nothing
-players that used to play the gs, and they rerolled to another weapons\spec, they are angry, but they dont care too much.
-players that try to fix this thing making new suggestions
-players that try to fix this thing by the suggestion of new values

so, its little different from a simple request.

Nurvus.2891:

I also think the change was unnecessary or overdone, but I want to try and give ANet some credit – they work for this game, and we merely play it.
So I want to think they know a little more than we do regarding what needs to be done.

This is a really bad affermation, players are the best testers of a game. Devs sure know the game better then us, but they are humans like us, and they can ignore things that a player notice. because we look the game with different eyes.
So if a decision is wrong for a lot of players, why dont change it.

So I try to make suggestions that work with the way they implemented things, rather than suggesting they revert their changes.

read better, its not a simple revert the change, but its an adjustment.
They have pointed the finger on retaliation… ok delete retaliation and give something else with the old cd.
its vital to keep retaliation on Sow? ok but the cd its to high, so why don’t set 15 or 14 sec CD.

Nurvus.2891:

Your “sollution” is simply rejecting the change ANet made. Very smart. :P

It’s not “my” solution, is a solution that a lot of player approve, and is a way more faster to APPLY AND TEST than create new set of skills. ^^

And if for you this suggestion is a simple reject for this change, yes im rejecting a change that i think is wrong ^^

really we dont need and AOE tipe instant attack. simbols are a things that persist on ground, the enemy can see them, ad he can avoid them(if its smart enogh), you can use them to create a “deadly” area around you, so the enemy can chose if attack you, keep distance, retreat, or something else.
Add some new tipe of simbols is a good thing, maybe less strong, and less large, but it must be a simbol lol.
And in any chase, the solution for the GS case, is simple… no need to change completely the mechanics of a weapon that before the 10\7 patch, was completely fine.

So, most of people Said that GS was nerfed, because of it incredible damage output istead of the retaliation ISSUE. so i have tried the raw damage of Hammer and GS

Now, i know that gw2 its not all about damage, but its also , avoiding and controlling, but keep a look on the damage can be helpfull to all of us, so dont go OT, im not attacking no one, im not asking to nerf nothing.

The target of my test is a HEAVY dummy of the PVP area.
I have used a rune of soldier (no damage influence)
NO random boons
NO sigils with random effect
i have used only neutral traits wich dont give random offensive effects or change the damage of a single weapon.

my first test was made with soldier amulet(soldier jewel) with a bare 4% on crit chance.

GS (value on seconds) 10.47\12.57\11.56\11.84\12.50
HAMMER (value on seconds) 13.79\13.46\14.44\14.95\12.98

so, with no precision the gs burst component is superior then hammer, but for the test on GS to achieve this speed, i need to SPAM all my 5 skills, for hammer i need only the 1112 rotation. (so i can keep all my controls)
________________________________________________________________
for the second test i used a +5% crit sigil and berserk amulet(berserk jewel)

GS: 9.52\9.82\9.54\9.74\9.30
HAMMER: 9.80\11.77\9.90\10.40\10.50

in the second test. the hammer damage grow a lot, only adding more crit chance, and i have used the same rotation of the previuos test, so GS=spam all skill(and then i have 7\8 secs of autoattack for the next wirl), Hammer= 1112
_________________________________________________________________

Ok now, this is not a 100% exact test, with no traits and no random boons, but for all that keep saying that GS was nerfed because it was TOO OP…
now, with this values i can say, NO, it was nerfed because SOW give retaliation!

Things change, and if the change is not good, they can rechange too.

They fixed it a couple patch ago. They increased the cooldown on the symbol and reduce cooldown on the leap. That’s the fix GS needed.

lol you call this a fix? doubling the CD of a good and sinergetic skill and reducing by1\4 the cd of a bugged and really less usefull skill? Even Anet have see the problem they have created with “THIS FIX” and they have tryed to fix it in the wrong way, with a +10% damage on the simbol.
So please, before talk, go to read that kitten update log, and look what they were tring to fix, and then tell to people to ADAPT!

lol man, its pretty useless open another topic like this… i agree with you, im a gs lover too, but this forum is full of topic like this one.
We have only to wait and hope for now ^^

Elites for me are just good, maybe they have too much CD, but the effects are fine.

ok the word simbol take me in the wrong path.
You are proposing a simple AOE attack, with different effects.
Well in not so sure of this. we arent elementalists, i like the idea of putting something to the ground that last some seconds and can “control” the enemy move.
i prefer the idea of a Normal simbol (a simbol skill) with a good radius and effect, and the flash version(less concentration, less “mana”), tied to another skill with lesser effects\and radius.

Your idea have some good points, but for other point im not so conviced.

1 – New Type of Symbol: Flash Symbol
- All Flash Symbols count as Symbols for purpose of Traits.
- All Flash Symbols have 1 instant effect (damage or healing).
- All Flash Symbols have 1 situational effect (condition or boon)

ok this is a good idea but:

1)elements, so if we have no light combo, the only element we have is fire… So we need another element to apply your idea (fire is already on consecrations ^^), and the only element that is not shared between classes, is Lightning (flash simbol you know :P), simply flash simbols act with normal combos, but with a different element ^^

2)now you have proposed this idea for leap of faith, and i agree with this… What im thinking is that all the guardians weapons need a simbols (maybe even the #5 skill of the shield, need something like this ^^) because simbols are our trademark U_U

So lets give a look only for the guard things:

Weapons:
Simbol of Wrath (GS 4)
Refraction (Trident 4)

Utility:
Save Yourself
Stand your ground
Signet of Judgment

Major traits:
Healer retribution (Radiance 1)
Retaliatory Subconscious (Virtues 4)
Wrathful spirit (Honor 1)
Vengeful (Virtues 2)

Minor Traits:
Virtue of Retribution(15 points on virtues)

Combo:
Light combo field: LEAP
Light combo field: BLAST

Brutaly.6257:

@ganzo
A boon like that is close to impossible to balance since it gets relatively stronger the less dps you and the opponent does.

Because the error its that a buff like retaliation, is a must for that game that HAVE an holy trinity, its a pve tanky buff that help to mantain aggro on you, but on a PVx oriented ACTION game, With no trinity, no active aggro mechanic(taunt) with no split mechanics (and in gw2 only 2 things are splitted for now)… well its only a mechanic that improve the lazyness of some players, and i dont think that a defensive class = lazy class.

Personally i would like it removed and i dont need any “compensation” tbh other then a great ranged alternative.

ok you are an tough guy, but not all players are like you, and not all player like the hammerworld :P(im not attacking you brutal, im joking ^^)
Retaliation is our cancer, and for the sake of this cursed boon, they have “balanced” our class.
Delete retaliation is Super ok for me, but all the decision made about the reta-granting weapons, skills and trait, must be revised(not simply reverted) to mantain a balance to attack and defence.

Ynna.8769:

In my opinion, the way Retaliation works and is implemented is wrong.
Retaliation should do the same damage as is incoming. It should also have a very clear visual.
It should also something that is more or less completely controlled by the player, so no Retaliation procs.

You mean something like an “active block”, like an hit with the shield every time they try to hit you lol

I think that even aegis must work in this way.
All the block source, must be controlled by the player instead of proc every X seconds or be activated by random combo.

i agree with you, but to modify retaliation in this way, some balance decision made in past, must be reverted\fixed.

Even if i dont like the hammer,this is really a great guide, i vote for sticky too.

there is one thing that i’m not convinced, and its about effectivness of the weapons rooster.
Hammer is a really great coice, mace i think can be really good, staff is good too.
Gs have some use with altruistic healing, but now not so good as the previous weapons, and for sword and scepter i dont see a real link, all the thing you can do with the last 2 weapons, you can do better with the first 3.

BishopX.6453:

WOW! this was my favorite ability… which is funny because its instantly killed me on numerous occations. if they are going to change the duration of the buffs, can we change the duration of the conditions that you draw off others on to yourself?

well for me this modification at SY is fine…but i admit that this is a really good argument.

5 sec of buff with 3 sec of conditions can be good, because if you take a lot of conditions from your friends, these conditions on you can be refreshed on duration, thing that dont happen so easily for buffs, ok we have a lot of condition removal tools, but we cant remove all.

I love my guard, and im still using my GS… but some changes have a really bad taste, because they give me the impression that no one has thought about the other consequences of the nerf, and even the “compesantions”, give me this impression.

Im seriuos only because i like play guardian i have other 3 alts, warrior, mesmer and thief, but guards was my first love in this game.
This class need surely a balacing, but for now is in the wrong way, im not saying that we need buffs (we are plenty of them lol) but a think that the devs are targetting the wrong things.

i simply dont undestand why retaliation boon is so important for the developer, to justify all the modification to weapons, and skills mechanics.
i think that in an action game, is supposed to use the weapons instead of reflecting damage.
retaliation is clearly a problem and have this boon on weapons and combo field is a part of the problem too.so
WHY dont have it only on some utility skills and maybe ELITE SKILLS.

Nurvus.2891:

Indeed, it felt right.
I personally don’t mind it either way, as long as our damage dealing and activity isn’t hit like this.
Now we auto-attack too often due to long cooldowns.

That’s why I suggest Chain on LoF.

i know but LOP have sinergy only for the GS traits… the simbol have 5 dedicated traits+weapons traits.

Add chains to other skill, add damage to Sow, etc etc, dont fix what we have lost for the sake of the retaliation boon.

Asmodal.6489:

@Ganzo: to limit the strength of a symbol build to the singular boon of one weapon set is pretty short sighted. there are so many traits that can benefit from a symbol its just silly.

im not short sighted…
the 7\10 update log say something, go to read it and then re-look the solutions!

Whe you see necromancer go around in dungeons with 10 mobs in their back, and dont die, im sure that they have fun lol.

1112 hammer comes at the cost of speed.

every 4\5 seconds when traited?

DiogoSilva.7089:

A greatsword was deemed too strong for what it does, but that does not means it should be completely changed. It should be nerfed, and it was nerfed. I also don’t think the recharge should be shorter here, but I do think that, should the GS reveal itself to be too weak (but is it?) a generic damage boost is probably the best way to fix it.

i quote only this part because i dont agree.
Maybe yes GS need a nerf, but not on a Trait sinergy.
The problem was reataliation? ok change the boon of the simbol, and dont touch the combo field, so (with the old CD) you can have a pure GS retaliation only if you leap in your own simbol (every 20 sec).
The problem was the spin condition removal?ok 15 sec on whirling wrath instead of 10… Leap and whirl have no sinergy (excluded the GS Traits) so they can be touched causing less damage to the traits.

There are plenty of solution to modify something without touch something else (or causing minimal damage to the rest) But the cd modification is the exact opposite.

Greatsword is a very smooth-to-play weapon, I agree, but it pidgeonholed us into a linear sequence, so strategically it was a bit mindnumbing IMO.

i dont think that the 1 1 1 2 sequence of the hammer, its smarter that the “old sequence” of the GS.

The negative aspects I can see from this change is that the symbol traits became less effective, but I haven’t tested yet how much effectiveness they have lost. And, of course, the greatsword is weaker, because there was a clear intention to be weaker, but if the damage was overnerfed or not I don’t know, and truth is the devs added a bit of GS symbol damage back in the last update.

But that +10% damage it mean nothing, because it doesnt make any sense. instead of +10% un damage i prefer -5sec on CD(or one of the other options proposed in the forum.) IM not proposing a simple roll back, but a wise modification of the GS simbol mechanic, because +100%CD and +10% damage, is not wise.

And much more, if the problem is a particular combo field (AOE Retaliation, or leap Retaliation) instead of change the weapons (because im sure that hammer its the next nerf incoming) simply change that particular combo field.

Yeah i dont understand the sense of this topic… before the 7\10 patch leap was 20 sec and bugged, now it have 15 sec and its “fixed”… so stop trolling, our forum is plenty of problems even without this kitteny topics.

SY is a skill with a really bad concept.
Something like:
2 random boons for every condition you take from ally, with duration based on the condition duration (max 10 sec) can fit the basic idea of this skill.

The loss of damage its not so relevant for me, the thing i really complain is the loss of the sinergy with trait… simbols are a guardians unique mechanic (like mesmer clones) with 4 major traits and 1 minor traits that modify their effects plus 2 minor trais that “give us” another simbol. So with this distrubution of traits, is supposed that simbols are one of our first defensive and offensive mechanic. (ground control)
Hammer and mace fit this thing, the staff have a very powerfull simbol, so 15 sec are fine… but 20 sec on GS simbol are TOO MUCH… that kittening 10% on damage, cant compensate in any case.